Lets Talk About Micro!

Has there been any new development with how we control units from SC1 to SC2? Are attack-move, move, stop, hold-position and patrol still the only commands?

I would like to suggest the following types of unit control for a new micro experience.

I. Order-Storage or Hold-Order
What if we can store commands for a unit? Say 1 to 10 commands per unit/unit group? I think 1 or 2 will be the sweet spot of balance though.

Here's how it works.. a unit will have a new button in its panel named Store-Orders with shortcut "T" that is toggle-able. When Toggled off, the unit is controlled just like a normal unit. But, once toggled on, the unit stops taking orders and instead stores them into memory. Once you release the store command or toggle it off by pressing it again or hitting "T", that is the time that the unit will perform the commands you gave it.

Examples.

1. Hold line until ordered to release.
- First you put a group outside an enemy's base with the Store-Orders toggled off
- you order them to Hold-Position.
- You toggle Store-Commands on.
- You then order the units, or inividual units to do consecutive things. Move to a point, then after attack move. Or attack specific units in order (well scouted units of course). Or move to a point and Cast an ablity.
- Then, just have them wait there. Once you see a good oportunity, toggle Store-Commands off again with "T". All units then proceed to do what is previously queued.

2. Move to a point and attack when released.
- First order a unit to move to a point, or give it a set of Shift-Clicked paths
- Then order Store-Commands on
- Store attack and cast commands
- Once in the right place toggle Store-Commands off
- Unit attacks

II. Shift Draw
The idea is similar to Shift-Click moving, but instead of multiple clicks the player holds the left mouse button, then when moved, cursor will draw a path on the terrain. The ordered unit will then follow whatever the player drew on the ground once released. For example, the outline of a cliff or range of SiegeTanks.

Can also apply to Shift-Attack move. For for ranged units, the ordered unit will follow the path the player drew and attack anything within its range. For melee, it can stray outside a limited area of the drawn line to attack.

After following the line, the unit will do the next command.

Another variation would be if the player draws a loop, the units would follow the loop indefinitely unitil oredered otherwise. Sort of a twist to patrol.

This can be balanced by limiting the length of the line that may be drawn.

Specifically I and II mixed together may yield powerful results.
Any thoughts? Ideas similar to theses?

SC2 already has "Order Storing." You can click a unit, hold shift, then tell it to move to certain places and attack certain things in sequence.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

SC2 already has "Order Storing." You can click a unit, hold shift, then tell it to move to certain places and attack certain things in sequence.

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Yes, but I think the unit does it immediately right?

Wasn't that in Starcraft 1?

In SC1, you can't ask a unit to stave-off doing something until told to. You could not put Hold-Position or Stop in the sequence for Shift-Commands. The suggestion sort of allows that.

(unless I've been playing the game wrong all these years)

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What if we can store commands for a unit? Say 1 to 10 commands per unit/unit group? I think 1 or 2 will be the sweet spot of balance though.

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That has nothing to do with game balance. The other player can do the exact same thing. So why limit it?

Reminds me of threads at Armory where someone wanted to limit unit selection to 32 for zerg, and less for other races.

I remember there was some sort of shift command.

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Originally Posted by don

Lets Talk About Micro!

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Noooo!

My arch enemy, Micro! :p

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Originally Posted by don

Yes, but I think the unit does it immediately right?

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Of course.

Here is how I understand your idea.

You click on unit X.
You give it Y instructions to act out later.
Later, you click on unit X again to activate those instructions.

What you're doing is effectually trying to turn micro into AI programing. You want your units to react without your immediate imput. Its just not OK for this game. Its like trying to plan out the game minutes ahead and then just letting it unfold.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Of course.

Here is how I understand your idea.

You click on unit X.
You give it Y instructions to act out later.
Later, you click on unit X again to activate those instructions.

What you're doing is effectually trying to turn micro into AI programing. You want your units to react without your immediate imput. Its just not OK for this game. Its like trying to plan out the game minutes ahead and then just letting it unfold.

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There are uses to this even during times where you are doing immediate input. "Later" can be as short as 3 seconds.

And even with this, "letting things unfold" is still akin to attack-move on the minimap. Per unit micro will still have to be performed.

On the pro scene in SC, Vultures are actually useful as counter units, due to their great micro potential. If someone mentions Terrans having crappy early game matchups against say Zealots, the counter-argument is that Terrans have Vultures; in the hands of pros. If a player is less apt at hit-and-run micro, they wouldn't be able to effectively make use of vultures as a zealot deterrent, correct?

TLDR; Micro affects balance and applicable use of certain units.

Should there be ways to ease micro so moderate players can effectively use hit-and-run micro, say through tailored 'attack and retreat' commands?

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Noooo!

My arch enemy, Micro! :p

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Every post in this thread kills you inside, doesn't it? MICRO!

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Originally Posted by arkalis

every post in this thread kills you inside, doesn't it? Micro!

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NOOOOOOO!!!!


*puts hands over ears*
MacroMacroMacroMacroMacroMacro

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

NOOOOOOO!!!!


*puts hands over ears*
MacroMacroMacroMacroMacroMacro

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I guess you would have died with a thread I remembered was entitled
"No macro, more micro"

While the idea sounds interesting to be used with the galaxy editor, I don't think it would be that much practical for normal games as we know them...

I think that one of the most needed commands in starcraft 2 is the Hold Attack. It can turn into an interesting game mechanic.

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Originally Posted by KadajSouba

I think that one of the most needed commands in starcraft 2 is the Hold Attack. It can turn into an interesting game mechanic.

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Specifically Hold-Attack while the unit is not moving. Normal-move is sort of a Hold-Attack, but once the unit completes it, you revert to that default thing that is not hold-position.

yeah, hold fire would be awesome, I saw a thread saying lurkers should get it, in fact I think terran ghosts got it. And how about being able to queue burrow?
In SC1 if you were holding shift and commanded a unit to move or attack and added as the final command "burrow", the unit would cancel the queue and simply burrow wherever it was and not after reaching the point it was commanded to move before!

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Originally Posted by Josue

yeah, hold fire would be awesome, I saw a thread saying lurkers should get it, in fact I think terran ghosts got it. And how about being able to queue burrow?

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Actually, you can hold lurker attacks in SC 1.

It's a bit of a glitch in SC1, but here's a clip of >>it<<

"You can hold lurker by making them bury, then selecting them along with an overlord. Now press "h" or hold, and they won't attack. U can then a-click when u want to atk," according to a random Youtube user named Smyxz...

However, I agree that they should implement some sort of command that officially allows this.

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Originally Posted by Jabber Wookie

I don't how you do it in SC 1, but I am almost positive I have watched professional matches on Youtube in which pros can, in fact, hold attacks by lurkers in order to draw the enemy in further... I'll try finding a clip, but if anyone else can validate this...

Nvm... found a clip right here

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Yes you can, and there's three ways to do it (though I only remember one).

1. select overlord and lurkers at the same time and hit hold position, then you tell them to attack.

2. had to do with stupid clicking

3. other mayor glitch

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II. Shift Draw
The idea is similar to Shift-Click moving, but instead of multiple clicks the player holds the left mouse button, then when moved, cursor will draw a path on the terrain. The ordered unit will then follow whatever the player drew on the ground once released. For example, the outline of a cliff or range of SiegeTanks.

Can also apply to Shift-Attack move. For for ranged units, the ordered unit will follow the path the player drew and attack anything within its range. For melee, it can stray outside a limited area of the drawn line to attack.

After following the line, the unit will do the next command.

Another variation would be if the player draws a loop, the units would follow the loop indefinitely unitil oredered otherwise. Sort of a twist to patrol.

This can be balanced by limiting the length of the line that may be drawn.

Specifically I and II mixed together may yield powerful results.

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This one got pretty much more potential. If you want to ninja a probe in the back of a base you don't have to click every 1-2 sec to make a circle and avoid being spoted, you only hold the click and make a sweet circle. And then you can go back to macro (lol archer). The system should probably include an anti-cliff jump for the path, i.e. you dont want your marine to walk the line inside your base a suddenly turn back and go down the ramp because your path was off the cliff.

The loop things is cool too, you can make interesting patrol path with that, and not only a stupid line, especially for air unit.

An interesting micro ability I thought of was formation drawing.

The way it works is like this: you select some number of units. You activate the formation drawing function. At this point, you can left-click and drag a path. Your units then form up along that path at even spacing and intervals, as best as that number of units can. If there are more units than can fit along the path, then they bunch up. If there are fewer units, then they are evenly distributed along the path.

Now, you can't move the units in this formation. At least, there would not be a way to say, "Move the path forward." If you want to move them, then they will follow the standard movement conventions. So this is mainly a defensive technique.

Also, nothing says which units go where. So if you've selected a heterogenous force, they may not go where you'd like.

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I. Order-Storage or Hold-Order

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No. As DSquid pointed out, this is essentially timeshifting your time.

StarCraft is an RTS. As such, time and time pressure are important. What you're essentially asking to do is to borrow time from one period of time and donate it to another. This is not a good idea, since a measure of a player's micro skill is built on their ability to execute micro in the time allotted. Not in the time allotted plus some extra time that you borrowed from some downtime.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

An interesting micro ability I thought of was formation drawing.

The way it works is like this: you select some number of units. You activate the formation drawing function. At this point, you can left-click and drag a path. Your units then form up along that path at even spacing and intervals, as best as that number of units can. If there are more units than can fit along the path, then they bunch up. If there are fewer units, then they are evenly distributed along the path.

Now, you can't move the units in this formation. At least, there would not be a way to say, "Move the path forward." If you want to move them, then they will follow the standard movement conventions. So this is mainly a defensive technique.

Also, nothing says which units go where. So if you've selected a heterogenous force, they may not go where you'd like.

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What if you can build this templates within the map editor and you can save up to 3 in your battlenet acount. After, this three templates take the form of formation bottons somewhere near the minimap. Essentially it is micro and everyone will have their way of using it. And a a sidestep, the unit's Ai will be modified to this new formation, as such, spellcasters would move to new areas of your formation and zerg flanking would work different.

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What if you can build this templates within the map editor and you can save up to 3 in your battlenet acount. After, this three templates take the form of formation bottons somewhere near the minimap. Essentially it is micro and everyone will have their way of using it. And a a sidestep, the unit's Ai will be modified to this new formation, as such, spellcasters would move to new areas of your formation and zerg flanking would work different.

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No. The point of my idea was to enhance micro, not to make it easier. My idea is dynamic and specifically facilitates defensive micro. It allows units that need to be positioned correctly for maximum effect to be positioned correctly more often and with less clickwork. Forming a tight wall with Roaches, for example.

The idea is meant to work with the terrain that is available. Preset formations are preset; they can only work for terrain that is exactly like what the preset was designed for. The idea does not include rotating formations, which presets would effectively require (unless you expect to be able to make your semi-circle preset for every possible direction). And my idea only lasts as long as you do not issue other commands to the units; there is no intention to provide mobile formations or formation marching or whatever, nor is there an intent to provide formations that place units in different locations based on type.

I'm a programmer by trade, so the idea of pre-programming things has a certain visceral appeal. It might even be interesting to make a game based around programming characters/units/etc and dropping them in a world (kind of an inverse Tower Defense-style game). But pre-programmed mechanics are entirely inappropriate for StarCraft.

I doubt the usefulness of Order-Storage. Short lists of commands would just as easily be executed on the fly, and long lists of commands wouldn't work very well as the situation they were set up for could change in a heartbeat. Also, when it comes to SCVs and Probes, I think they can already store a construction list, but I'm not sure. (This would obviously be useless for Drones, as they themselves become the building.)

Path Drawing has some potential. I think it would really take just as much micro to draw paths as it would to click them out, so it could be an interesting option, but it could also be useless. Formation Drawing, however, would definitely cut back on the amount of micro required to position a group of units in a firing line, so I think that has much more potential.

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One interesting command queuing idea I've heard before is a way to interrupt a unit's current waypoint list without erasing the list entirely. As you know, shift+click adds commands which are to be executed after the rest of the list is completed. The suggestion was to implement ctrl+click for adding a command or a list of commands (ctrl+shift+click) BEFORE the previously established list of commands, thus preserving the original list.

For example, let's say you a-move a group of units through a list of waypoints meant to raze an opponent's entire base, but those units forget to destroy one of two buildings that are just a few steps behind where they currently are. Originally, you would have to select a group of units, get them to destroy the buildings, and then re-order them through the entire waypoint list again. With ctrl+click, however, you would be able to select that group of units and just ctrl+shift+attack the buildings (or ctrl+attack the area near them). Once done, the units would immediately go back to their original list of orders.

Another example would be if you command a group of workers to go to your new expansion through an elaborate waypoint list so that they don't cross through enemy territory. However, you soon discover a group of enemies moving right across the workers' path. Using ctrl+click, you could designate an alternate waypoint (or list of waypoints with ctrl+shift+click) so that they go around the new threat.

An interesting alternative to this feature would be the ability to add waypoints to the visible paths on the map. Recall the situation with the workers moving to a new expansion but potentially running into the enemy. You could select the workers to see their waypoint path, select the move command, hold down alt, hover the cursor over one of the lines between two waypoints, hold down the mouse button, and then drag the line over to another area to create an alternate route. Holding down alt+shift would allow you to add multiple new waypoints in this line.

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I think of all the ideas I want, the one I want the most is a hold-fire command. There are plenty of times that I want units in a certain area to just flat-out wait for their next order without going off on some wild goose chase or ruining a perfectly good ambush. When I first played SC, I was utterly surprised that that command wasn't available. I really, REALLY hope that it is implemented in SC2.

The ability to draw shapes with the mouse that will influence units in a certain way lends itself to a lot of possibilities as well.

How many times have you been playing sc or war3 and you have multiple control groups in battle but now a decent amount of these units are damaged so you pull them back. Now its time to issue new orders to the units on the front lines but not everything on the battlefront is as clean as you would like it to be, so dragging a rectangle over the units that you want to recreate your control group can sometimes be difficult. Imagine being able to select units by drawing a shape across the screen around the units you want. Don't want that group of badly damaged tanks in the middle of your army rushing in? Instead of dragging a box and then shift clicking down to just the units you want to pull back you could drag an outline around just the forces you want. Bam you're done. Also imagine the potential of ctrl + double click on a selected unit to invert the selection of on screen units.

Anyway thats just my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

I'm a programmer by trade, so the idea of pre-programming things has a certain visceral appeal. It might even be interesting to make a game based around programming characters/units/etc and dropping them in a world (kind of an inverse Tower Defense-style game). But pre-programmed mechanics are entirely inappropriate for StarCraft.

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You are probably right regarding the reduction of micro, but sometimes reducing micro here might add more micro there. Still, it is just a tought and another place to invest micro at would be necesary.

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Originally Posted by ZealotPowerade

The ability to draw shapes with the mouse that will influence units in a certain way lends itself to a lot of possibilities as well.

How many times have you been playing sc or war3 and you have multiple control groups in battle but now a decent amount of these units are damaged so you pull them back. Now its time to issue new orders to the units on the front lines but not everything on the battlefront is as clean as you would like it to be, so dragging a rectangle over the units that you want to recreate your control group can sometimes be difficult. Imagine being able to select units by drawing a shape across the screen around the units you want. Don't want that group of badly damaged tanks in the middle of your army rushing in? Instead of dragging a box and then shift clicking down to just the units you want to pull back you could drag an outline around just the forces you want. Bam you're done. Also imagine the potential of ctrl + double click on a selected unit to invert the selection of on screen units.

Anyway thats just my 2 cents.

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I believe there's a hold shift button for selecting multiple units by clicking them and moving them out. It doesn't draw a line or figure but you can easily point out several units depending on your targeting skills and APM skill.

I'm no pro gamer, but I rarely store up more than 2 orders for a unit, ever.

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Originally Posted by SaharaDrac

I'm no pro gamer, but I rarely store up more than 2 orders for a unit, ever.

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Lol same here. But some ideas here are really good, aint too complicated, and can give the game a completely new face.

The formation mechanics are part of many other RTS's, I think that i could be a nice addition to the game.

Drawing paterns with ur mouse is nice too, althought i have never seen that before.

But im still waiting to see the Hold Attack mechanic. Of course as a command, not a glitch. I mean i dont think that in battle u are like: Hey the sun is funny today OH SHIT ZERGLING BANG BANG!!!!!!! That was close... OH MY GOD EVOLUTION CHAMBER BANG BANG BANG!!!!!!!!!!!

Lol just kidding.

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Originally Posted by KadajSouba

Drawing paterns with ur mouse is nice too, althought i have never seen that before.

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For those who have used Photoshop or Zbrush I would say what I'm thinking of would be something similar to the lasso tool. It very gives you a very large amount of control over your selection that is intuitive and easy to use. Im not entirely sure but it seems to fit into the category of easy to learn but hard to master. Since the more efficient you are with dragging your shapes the more precise control you can have over your units.

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Originally Posted by ZealotPowerade

For those who have used Photoshop or Zbrush I would say what I'm thinking of would be something similar to the lasso tool. It very gives you a very large amount of control over your selection that is intuitive and easy to use. Im not entirely sure but it seems to fit into the category of easy to learn but hard to master. Since the more efficient you are with dragging your shapes the more precise control you can have over your units.

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It helps on the control of still images but what about moving targets that will eventually walk out or into the pattern?

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Originally Posted by ZealotPowerade

The ability to draw shapes with the mouse that will influence units in a certain way lends itself to a lot of possibilities as well.

How many times have you been playing sc or war3 and you have multiple control groups in battle but now a decent amount of these units are damaged so you pull them back. Now its time to issue new orders to the units on the front lines but not everything on the battlefront is as clean as you would like it to be, so dragging a rectangle over the units that you want to recreate your control group can sometimes be difficult. Imagine being able to select units by drawing a shape across the screen around the units you want. Don't want that group of badly damaged tanks in the middle of your army rushing in? Instead of dragging a box and then shift clicking down to just the units you want to pull back you could drag an outline around just the forces you want. Bam you're done. Also imagine the potential of ctrl + double click on a selected unit to invert the selection of on screen units.

Anyway thats just my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by ZealotPowerade

For those who have used Photoshop or Zbrush I would say what I'm thinking of would be something similar to the lasso tool. It very gives you a very large amount of control over your selection that is intuitive and easy to use. Im not entirely sure but it seems to fit into the category of easy to learn but hard to master. Since the more efficient you are with dragging your shapes the more precise control you can have over your units.

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It seems that drawing on the battlefield is the better idea than command storage. I love the lasso idea.

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Originally Posted by The_Blade

It helps on the control of still images but what about moving targets that will eventually walk out or into the pattern?

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Then the correct action to handle that is to draw the shape faster which translates into a good skill gradient in the game. The challenge would be to draw a squiggle faster than you can draw a rectangular selection.



Implementation of lasso select and draw path

The modifier would be the ~ or the ` button.

~ + left mouse drag would toggle lasso select instead of rectangular.
~ + right mouse drag when a unit/units is selected would then follow the path.

It seems easy enough to add to the game even in the stage of development the game is in now..

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Originally Posted by don

It seems that drawing on the battlefield is the better idea than command storage. I love the lasso idea.



Then the correct action to handle that is to draw the shape faster which translates into a good skill gradient in the game. The challenge would be to draw a squiggle faster than you can draw a rectangular selection.



Implementation of lasso select and draw path

The modifier would be the ~ or the ` button.

~ + left mouse drag would toggle lasso select instead of rectangular.
~ + right mouse drag when a unit/units is selected would then follow the path.

It seems easy enough to add to the game even in the stage of development the game is in now..

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The problem with this "fast skill" is that at most you will have the time to laso a group of at most 5 units drawing the squiggle. Eventually you might master it with protoss or terran but it will be a pain with zerg and air units which tend to stack up.

A shift or a ctrl +click might work preaty good; but a ~, or any other character located in the third or second sector of a keyboard, will eventually result in a problem for many keyboards which need to hit another key first AND THEN CLICK.

As a result I should keep the shift or ctrl hitting units which will aditionally join your selection without going out of it, as a much better alternative for micro selecting your units.

How about attack group like in Homeworld?? It's like Focus fire, but on several select units instead of one?