Bnet2 idea: ladder/pro betting

Read an interesting idea on TL.net that suggested creating a betting system on Bnet2 that would allow people to gain/lose betting points by betting on ladder and/or pro games. These points would allow one to purchase special items for their Bnet2 profile (bragging rights ftw) and possibly for SC2 itself. In addition to what was originally suggested, my personal adjustments would be to:
— make pro games have a greater effect than regular ladder games
— allow betting to take place at any time during the game
— use a "betting curve" that makes earlier bets count more than later bets

Your thoughts?

So long as it's not real money, I think this is a cool idea.

Great idea. Bets on Esports will become regular thing very soon... (imo)

What kind of special items did you have in mind?

Well, I myself didn't really have any ideas other than maybe some cool avatars or awards or something. The original poster suggested using the points system as an alternate means to acquire unique items that would normally have to be purchased outright with normal money. Since making a good bet requires a solid knowledge of the game and the players, perhaps the grand prize for the most points would be attending as a guest SC2 commentator at WWI? Maybe not, but something real could be pretty cool.

What's the currency being used? How do you get these points outside of betting?

First impression, I'm on the fence. Would I respect the guy who got a new avatar from winning E-sports bets? Not really, he never really earned it. He got something for either spending a lot of time spectating the E-sports scene (which isn't actually playing the game) or being very lucky. If I wanted said avatar and I wasn't into the E-sports/Pro scene, what's in it for me? All I'd need is blind luck, it doesn't mean I'll pay attention to the actual pro gaming scene any more than knowing the final results.

I say if they do hand-me-outs, base it on things you can earn. The WoW system works that way with some of the special pets or mounts. Give out themed avatars for just being on battle.net over a holiday, earn other special ones by beating X ranked matches in a row, etc.

IIRC the OP said you would start with a particular sum when you first sign up. Then you'd go from there.

I think it could work. I'd never pay micro transactions for betting points, but I'd use freebies.

So, what happens if you run out of e-money? Is there a way to get more?

I partially agree with Triceron; it shouldn't have cool avatars for betting, but maybe a like a Speculating System that shows your % of winning bets and after some X or X% of correct speculation you get like a Title or something similar that you can only get from betting but that isn't better than good avatars/decals.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

So, what happens if you run out of e-money? Is there a way to get more?

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Win a tournament? Get more points per ELL points?

Tournaments aren't easy to win, and if you worked that hard to earn those points are you really going to bet them off? Compared to someone who is just really lucky or follows the pro scene?

I really would like to have such feature, just for the fun of it and following the pro-scene. But is it ethical to stimulate the younger players into 'gambling' behavior and thus preparing them for the real deal?

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Originally Posted by Hydropillow

I really would like to have such feature, just for the fun of it and following the pro-scene. But is it ethical to stimulate the younger players into 'gambling' behavior and thus preparing them for the real deal?

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Is it ethical to expose younger players to Marines being cut in half and oozing blood?
Is it ethical to simulate destruction by nuclear weaponry?

Srsly, get over yourself. We live in a society that glorifies destruction and death, yet shuns the act of love-making, and you're worried about exposing youth to gambling.

Cept one is cartoon violence, and the other can lead to long-term addiction.

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Originally Posted by Triceron

Cept one is cartoon violence, and the other can lead to long-term addiction.

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So its OK to expose youth to violence and promote it, as long as its not "real." And yet its not OK to expose youth to gambling and promote it, even if they're not betting real money?

You people sicken me.

Yep.

You turned out fine, rig- wait...

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Originally Posted by Triceron

Yep.

You turned out fine, rig- wait...

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How the hell is that relevant?

Jack Thompson may be a dick, but it IS possible for violent video games to make violent people. And its the same for gambling video games possibly making gamblers. So I'm asking, why the double standard? Why are violent video games acceptable to you, but not online gambling with fake money?

Fucking hypocritical.

There is no double standard about it. They're two different things.

One is censorship. The other is an officially supported gambling system. Simulated killing =/= real murder. Gambling = gambling. I don't care about the kids, personally. The moral factor of cartoon violence and gambling is trivial to me.

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Originally Posted by Triceron

There is no double standard about it. They're two different things.

One is censorship. The other is an officially supported gambling system. Simulated killing =/= real murder. Gambling = gambling. I don't care about the kids, personally. The moral factor is trivial to me.

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Your point was that video game gambling could induce real gambling. I say that video game violence can induce real violence. You say violence is OK but gambling is not.

Ergo, you're full of shit and a hypocrite, deal with it.

There's no difference between Videogame Gambling and Gambling. It's one and the same.

If you stole an item from someone in a videogame, it's not 'Videogame Stealing'. It's Stealing.

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Originally Posted by Triceron

There's no difference between Videogame Gambling and Gambling. It's one and the same.

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That's not the point.

The point is that you're saying its ok for online violence with fake death to lead to real violence, but not for online gambling with fake money to lead to real gambling.

You're arguing the ends, I'm arguing the means. The Ends do not justify the Means in this case. Simulated Violence is not violence. Gambling is not simulated. There is a difference, therefore your point is irrelevant.

You compared Apples to Oranges. Ergo, you don't know what you're talking about and are full of shit.

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Originally Posted by Triceron

You're arguing the ends, I'm arguing the means. The Ends do not justify the Means in this case. Simulated Violence is not violence. Gambling is not simulated. There is a difference, therefore your point is irrelevant.

You compared Apples to Oranges. Ergo, you don't know what you're talking about and are full of shit.

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You say: Online gambling can lead to real gambling, and as such is not OK.
I say: Online violence can lead to real violence. Do you think that's OK?
You say: No, but they're unrelated.
I say: Why? How?
You say: durrrr...

Pathetic.

I said one is Cartoon violence and the other can lead to serious addiction.

You can't get addicted to Cartoons. Apples and Oranges. Stop asking if Apples taste better.

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Originally Posted by Triceron

I said one is Cartoon violence and the other can lead to serious addiction.

You can't get addicted to Cartoons. Apples and Oranges.

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So suddenly Japan doesn't exist, then?

And FYI, I was talking about addiction to murder (ie. serial killers) compared to addiction to gambling.

We could be talking about Apple and Orange addiction and be just as relevant to the main topic. I think oranges taste better, what about you?

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Originally Posted by Triceron

We could be talking about Apple and Orange addiction and be just as relevant to the main topic. I think oranges taste better, what about you?

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Learning from Archer I see. If you're going to play like him, then fuck it.

If you can explain to me the relevance of Serial Killers to an online gambling system for SC2, I'd love to hear it.

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Originally Posted by Triceron

If you can explain to me the relevance of Serial Killers to an online gambling system for SC2, I'd love to hear it.

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I already did. You ignored it, or were too stupid to understand it.

So then you think that SC2 has the same addictive potential to create a Serial Killer as Gambling does for a Gambler. Are you daft?

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Originally Posted by Triceron

So then you think that SC2 has the same addictive potential to create a Serial Killer as Gambling does for a Gambler. Are you daft?

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That's not even remotely what I said.

What I said was, YOU think that children gambling virtual points on games of SC2 is enough to lead them to a life of addictive gambling, and that its unethical. I ask why the hell you don't think the violence in SC2 is unethical when it can lead to real life violence.

You reply with some crap about cartoons and oranges.

This doesn't sound like a bad idea.

It reminds me of Smash Bros Brawl where you could bet on replays with coins. The reason I think that feature didn't get used much though is because coins are so easy to come by in that game.

If Blizzard is really set on making SC2 into a spectator sport, implementing this might be a good move, especially if these "betting points" have some kind of pay off.

Arguing with the wrong person, Squid. My name isn't Hydropillow, I never made the statement that Gambling leads kids to addiction. Age does not matter in this situation.

Gambling in itself has very psychologically addictive properties to it. Given that we're asking for Blizzard to officially support and add incentives for this is dangerous. People pay real money for virtual WoW gold; if you get someone addicted enough to this official gambling system, they could be paying to get these Tournament points.

I've recently quit WoW, and I know how addicting the game can be because of its reward system. It's the reason I quit. Asking Blizzard to officially support a gambling system can be fun, but potentially dangerous. Gambling addiction is real, even if you're involving fake money.

The danger is in how easy it is to get into. You start a little because it's fun. You win a little bit and try for more. You lose a little and you want to break even. Soon enough you're hooked. This isn't comparable to an adrenaline rush from seeing a nuke drop on an army of zerg leading you to kill mulitple people.

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Originally Posted by Triceron

Gambling addiction is real, even if you're involving fake money.

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This actually isn't true. A reward system is in EVERY game, it just comes in a different box.

Gambling addiction spawns from three reasons.

A) You are in need of something
B) You form a habit from long-term play.
C) You are genetically susceptible to addiction

A is way more serious because it is chaotic and out of control. This doesn't have to be a need for money, it could be a need for a period of time all to yourself. Mostly, gambling becomes a major issue because of a debt, and a false sense of "the big moment" is coming. Like any drug, the big moment is harder to get the more you use it... thus creating the situation where you inevitably lose everything. In the case of drugs, you overdose. In the case of gambling, you lose everything you own.

B is likely a controlled habit, where you go to the casino every week with 50 dollars and play until you have nothing left, or until X amount of time has elapsed. In essence, this is more like an alcoholic that drinks some alcohol every day and the body starts to act like it needs it. In the case of gambling for people who do so out of habit, its more of a psychological need.

C is where it doesn't even matter what you are introduced to, you will find something to be addicted to. Not all addictions are bad though. For example, if you were addicted to eating healthy all of the time, you would live longer, which is not a bad result. However, you have to still be thinking clearly. If you start to not only be addicted, but also irrational and obsessive, you will likely turn any good thing into a bad thing.

Playing online poker, or any form of online betting will not turn you into a real gambler with an addiction. Exposure may provide you with experience that convinces you to try gambling, but it does not force an addiction of any kind. The act of gambling isn't actually an addiction in itself.

In the end, it comes down to a choice... your own personal choice... No one can make you be addicted... Even if your body believes it needs it... Even if your mind tells you that you have to have it... you still can choose not to do it.

It's not societies job to babysit its members. It is societies job to make things legal, or illegal based on how much damage something does to the community, and to make sure to limit the damage done from a poor decision as much as possible.

Everyone should be free to gamble if they want to, but everyone should not be free to lose everything they have doing so. Everyone should be free to own a business if they want to, but they should not be allowed to use that business to steal, or use the business in a way that harms society as a whole through practices that cause the entire economy to crash.

Blizzard should be free to allow a fake gambling system, as long as they don't ever allow you to use real money.

Many good points.

I may have gone to an extreme in my example, it's not as though people will lose their homes over SC2 avatars. To be honest, addiction is only one of the bullet points to my personal feelings against gambling.

I still believe the incentives of giving people exclusive rewards for gambling to be deconstructive. The fancy avatars and titles draw people into wanting to try themselves, and it promotes people gambling to get what they want. If these rewards are meant to be obtained by many people, they should be handed out easier. If they're hard to obtain, you'll end up with a lot of pissed off players who just wasted a bunch of points losing their gambles.

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Originally Posted by Triceron

Many good points.

I may have gone to an extreme in my example, it's not as though people will lose their homes over SC2 avatars. To be honest, addiction is only one of the bullet points to my personal feelings against gambling.

I still believe the incentives of giving people exclusive rewards for gambling to be deconstructive. The fancy avatars and titles draw people into wanting to try themselves, and it promotes people gambling to get what they want. If these rewards are meant to be obtained by many people, they should be handed out easier. If they're hard to obtain, you'll end up with a lot of pissed off players who just wasted a bunch of points losing their gambles.

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Gaming in reality is a waste of time and money. That is something we all have to just accept. Just because something is fun, that doesn't mean eventually it doesn't hit some kind of a wall.

I believe in your case with WoW, you hit a wall. You reached a point where you no longer wanted to continue, or felt it was impossible for you to do so. Regardless of the reasons behind it, the walls will exist as long as there is a reward to be achieved, or a goal to be achieved. When all attainable goals are reached, you hit the wall. When all rewards are reached, you hit the wall. When you no longer enjoy playing the game, you hit the wall...

No matter what you will realize the game is a big waste of your time and you will move on to something you enjoy more, which more enjoyment does provide additional value, just don't expect it to be permanent. The goal for a gaming company is to give you so many options, so many different kinds of fun, that you hit the wall as late as possible. Variety is important...

This took some maturity on my part to learn that eventually I have to decide a game should not require more time from me than I am willing to give. If the game does so, I do not play it. MMORPGs will almost always require more time from you than you are willing to give, maybe not immediately, but eventually. Paying a monthly fee forces this to happen.

-More to the topic itself

I'm not sure a gambling system is the best idea... I think people should be allowed to choose a winner, and show off how good their winning percentage is. If you start using points which require time and effort to achieve, that fake currency becomes somewhat more important than a game should.

My point isn't about hitting the wall though, rather that it'd be potentially impossible for some to reach the goal. Once you get the Avatar/Title, you're set. If you're losing bets and have been spending time and effort to accomplish with no reward, you're going to blame the system, and ultimately Blizzard for supporting it.

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Originally Posted by Triceron

My point isn't about hitting the wall though, rather that it'd be potentially impossible for some to reach the goal. Once you get the Avatar/Title, you're set. If you're losing bets and have been spending time and effort to accomplish with no reward, you're going to blame the system, and ultimately Blizzard for supporting it.

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Thats basically hitting a wall though. There are achievement walls we will all hit, regardless of the game. Some of us just will not be as good as others, its a fact. Just because 10% of your population can't achieve a goal, that doesn't mean you can't add the goal anyway. Think of this in terms of achievements in games on the console. There are some achievements that are just plain crazy and unbelievable that someone could get them, yet some people get them.

I did agree that betting even with fake points would create a situation where the value behind the fake points becomes the time and effort spent to gain those points. This would create more frustration than fun, and you can get the same kind of thing without the points at all by just allowing everyone to choose a winner in every match, and giving a player a winning percentage to show off. Those with the best winning percentage obviously work hardest to review different players, or are incredibly good guessers. At any rate, it would be a nice bit of bragging rights.

Considering Blizzard sold SC themed poker sets, this suggestion is hardly anything to get flustered about.

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Asking Blizzard to officially support a gambling system can be fun, but potentially dangerous. Gambling addiction is real, even if you're involving fake money.

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Gambling addiction psychologically works exactly like MMO addiction. What the player gets addicted to is the expectation of a payout, whether it's drawing the right card or getting the right loot. Where it becomes harmful is the cost of the endeavor. Gambling actual money costs you... actual money. Playing an MMO does cost money, but the main problem in MMO addiction is time. You gamble that putting in 6 hours on this raid will give you some phat l00tz0rz.

The few wins in either case bouy you up for the long period of losses/failures to win. They give you the psychological encouragement you need to keep playing the game.

When money/time become irrelevant to you in playing the game, you have become addicted.

However, if it's virtual money, then no harm is being done. If you become addicted to betting on StarCraft matches, you become addicted to betting on StarCraft matches. This doesn't cost much time and costs no money. So there's no problem.

MMO addiction is far worse than fake gambling addiction. And Blizzard's already just fine with MMO addiction; they design their whole game around drawing that kind of person in.

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C is where it doesn't even matter what you are introduced to, you will find something to be addicted to. Not all addictions are bad though. For example, if you were addicted to eating healthy all of the time, you would live longer, which is not a bad result.

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Unfortunately, that's not how addictive personalities work. The addictive personality can't do things in sufficient moderation to make something like "eating healthy" work. An addictive personality is more likely to focus on one particular kind of food, or avoid food entirely, or something of that nature.

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Playing online poker, or any form of online betting will not turn you into a real gambler with an addiction.

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Online gambling is not a magic box that transforms everyone into mindless slaves. And nobody's saying that it is.

But people who are predisposed, whether through acquired personality or genetics, towards gambling addiction are just as capable of becoming addicted to online gambling as "real" gambling. And online gambling addiction is no less real (and no less dangerous) than "real" gambling if it involves real money.