StarCraft 2 Balance Team is...

Starbase was cool but kind of worthless. I mean this flying building made air units which themselves could fly which sort of limited the usefulness of the SB.

@norfindel: slight misunderstanding. When I say tier I am mostly referring to cost not when you can get it. Even in BW two air units were at basically the same time (ex: corsairr/ scout). But compare the difference in cost of the VR vs he Phoenix:200/150 and 60 seconds vs 125/75 and 45 seconds.

Viking: 125/100 42 seconds and can be double pumped with reactor.
banshee: 150/100 60 seconds

so it's actually encouraging you to get AtA rather than AtG.

In the current System the only reason to get phoenix first is for an AntiGrav harass... But you need two at least. Wouldn't one VR be better if that's the purpose?

I think the AtG attackers should cost less and the AtA fighters should cost more.

@aiur: no you smell coffee :)

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Originally Posted by KneeofJustice

Starbase was cool but kind of worthless. I mean this flying building made air units which themselves could fly which sort of limited the usefulness of the SB.

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The SB wasn't worthless, it was just flawed in two ways:

1. Of all three Terrran production buildings, the Starport/Starbase is the one which least needs the ability to produce units "on the fly" or as proxy.

2. Creating Starbases meant leaving unused Reactors and Tech Labs littering the map. Yes, they could be salvaged, but then if you wanted another Factory or Barracks you'd have to rebuild them all over again, so it was counter productive.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

The SB wasn't worthless, it was just flawed in two ways:

1. Of all three Terrran production buildings, the Starport/Starbase is the one which least needs the ability to produce units "on the fly" or as proxy.

2. Creating Starbases meant leaving unused Reactors and Tech Labs littering the map. Yes, they could be salvaged, but then if you wanted another Factory or Barracks you'd have to rebuild them all over again, so it was counter productive.

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I liked the idea of a mobile hatchery. It could uplift and move around like the spine and spore crawler. Since a planted hatchery generates creep would also serve as another means by which zerg could move creep.

I also liked the idea of allowing the Terran buildings to produce units while in lift off. The units would then be dropped off when the building landed. This would give us our Starbase (which wouldnt need to land to drop off) and also replace the ferry SCV abilty the CC currently has (except you wouldnt be able to bunker SCVs into the CC if raided but I think bunkers will do fine for that).

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

It is at this point that I would like to bring up the idea of a mobile hatchery. It could uplift and move around like the spine and spore crawler.

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Ummm...

Way to kill racial diversity. Hatcheries are not Command Centers. They're Barracks, Factories, and Starports. They can already be built anywhere, for cheap, and be effective, unlike the CC.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Since a planted hatchery generates creep would also serve as another means by which zerg could move creep.

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What point is there in having this ability just to help produce creep? The Zerg can already create creep anywhere they want through their second most common unit - Overlords - and cloaked creep tumors created by mass-able queens.

So pointless.

I’m with DS on this one Archero. A mobile hatchery is rather pointless in the sense of unit production. The Zerg want to make more of them, so they can produce more units. Yes, there is the Queens larva ability but if I recall they move slowly off creep and so to get to another expansion both the hatchery and the Queen will have to crawl their way there. Even without that fact, I’m sure a Zerg player will still want multiple hatcheries.

The more I think abouT it the more I think Zerg should have moving buildings, not Terran. But this is so off topic.

Can anyone think of a way to make the VR better against smaller targets without giving it a disadvantage to larger targets and without makign it OP?

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Originally Posted by KneeofJustice

The more I think abouT it the more I think Zerg should have moving buildings, not Terran. But this is so off topic.

Can anyone think of a way to make the VR better against smaller targets without giving it a disadvantage to larger targets and without makign it OP?

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That is so not what we want to do with the Void Ray. Let the Carrier plow through light units, the Void Ray has a very good niche right now.

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Originally Posted by KneeofJustice

Can anyone think of a way to make the VR better against smaller targets without giving it a disadvantage to larger targets and without makign it OP?

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Well in the G-Star videos, i think one of the first ones that came up, we saw void rays harrasment, and they did very well against marines. I mean they are supposed to destroy larger targets, but we saw them attacking marines and it did very well. Like squid said, i think right now the VR is cool.

On the other hand... the thor.... :(

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Thats how its always been no? If you need a lore explaination the reconstruction of the body includes regeneration of organ and tissue yada yada

On another note, Im guessing unlike zerg evolution the battlecruiser does not regain hitpoints when being refitted.

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But why it should be like that? The Guardian cost is based on the Mutalisk cost, why do you get a 100% healthy Guardian from an almost-dead Mutalisk?

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Originally Posted by Norfindel

But why it should be like that? The Guardian cost is based on the Mutalisk cost, why do you get a 100% healthy Guardian from an almost-dead Mutalisk?

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Cause.

Metamorphosis involves breaking down and reconstituting the body into a different shape. It's not like a caterpillar with scars and missing a few legs would turn into a butterfly with legs missing and scars on its body.

Gameplay-wise, if you sacrificed a unit and added extra resources and time to create a new unit, that new unit should have full HP. If you're only spending time or only spending extra resources OR only extra time, I can see it not coming out with full HP (Ala Archon, which only uses time; retains HP based on Templar HP pool at time of merging). It's already vulnerable during the cocoon process, it doesn't need to be further vulnerable popping out of the cocoon at 20% HP. The full heal is packaged into its cost.

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Originally Posted by KneeofJustice

Starbase was cool but kind of worthless.

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yeah but the starbase was safe from zealots and zerglins and ground based abilites.. plus the ability to hide a production building over water or space..

the starport could already lift of, it just gave it the ability to produce units in that state.

i know there were reasons not to put it in, but not because it was worthless.. they could have decided to put add-ons more integrated to its body so it also lifts of..

i bet they are saving it of expansions.. sometimes i think they take things out so they have something to put into the expansion sets..

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

That is so not what we want to do with the Void Ray. Let the Carrier plow through light units, the Void Ray has a very good niche right now.

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I totally agree... on paper. But capitol ships are almost guaranteed to be a rare occurrence despite blizzards efforts to the contrary, and if the voidrays usefulness is mostly determined by its dominance over these ships, it will not be seen that frequently.

It must therefore earn its "playing time" by its effectiveness in either raiding, or seige (though it has 7 range) or some other area. So yes, it has a good niche, but its still a niche, and can be improved upon. If it were perfect, they wouldnt be singling it out (along with corruptor) to be the focus of their improvement.

Kada said:

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Well in the G-Star videos, i think one of the first ones that came up, we saw void rays harrasment, and they did very well against marines. I mean they are supposed to destroy larger targets, but we saw them attacking marines and it did very well. Like squid said, i think right now the VR is cool.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCGVy...layer_embedded

Yes, they did well against marines.... mostly in very small groups (max was like 6-8 vs 3 rays). There really isnt anything special about this because most toss units should be able to take on a few marines, especially if they are spread out a lot.

and then the thor scared away the VRs... why are the VRs running away from the unit they supposedly counter?

I think this is just one example: what we really need is beta to see if the VR harass is actually effective against a prepared opponent. DK lost this game more to hubris (massing marauders without marines) than to anything else, though the VR harass/micro was quite good.

So my theory is that the VR may be too situational and is being made slightly more efficient outside its main role. But what is everyone else thinking (besides that its "cool").

They'd better blow us away with some new toss macro mechanics and VR/Corruptor updates soon.

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Originally Posted by don

yeah but the starbase was safe from zealots and zerglins and ground based abilites.. plus the ability to hide a production building over water or space..

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Oh, right, lets take an expensive production building out of a nice secure base and park it over some random spot of water which means it has to carry its own air-force for protection, thus removing said force from play in another, perhaps critical, location. What a wonderful idea.[/sarcasm]

Honestly, park the blasted thing in your main, because in all honesty, if the enemy can get at it there then you're already dead.

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Originally Posted by MattII

Oh, right, lets take an expensive production building out of a nice secure base and park it over some random spot of water which means it has to carry its own air-force for protection, thus removing said force from play in another, perhaps critical, location. What a wonderful idea.[/sarcasm]

Honestly, park the blasted thing in your main, because in all honesty, if the enemy can get at it there then you're already dead.

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yeah but you can hide it if you put it over water so they don't know you're going air

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Originally Posted by deadlock

yeah but you can hide it if you put it over water so they don't know you're going air

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Okay, so you're going to spend 200/200 and 45-55 seconds on a building of doubtful utility so you can hide the fact that you're going air, despite the fact that the enemy is almost certainly going to go air at some point himself. Why bother?

Starbase was MORE than just a flying starport. It actually had abilities and a function that allowed it to act as a support unit for your air force. It wasn't something you just stuck in the corner of the map.

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Originally Posted by KneeofJustice

I totally agree... on paper. But capitol ships are almost guaranteed to be a rare occurrence despite blizzards efforts to the contrary, and if the voidrays usefulness is mostly determined by its dominance over these ships, it will not be seen that frequently.

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The Void Ray counters MANY other things beside capital ships. Every single building in the game is fast food for these things. The Thor, and Colossi, and the Queen, all of which we have seen many of, are appetizers.

The Void Ray has a niche, but its HUGE already.

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Originally Posted by Triceron

Starbase was MORE than just a flying starport. It actually had abilities and a function that allowed it to act as a support unit for your air force. It wasn't something you just stuck in the corner of the map.

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Indeed. If memory serves, it could xfer energy to Banshees, Medivacs, Ravens, and BC's.

Despite having a Niche, I agree that the Void Ray isn't going to be a Niche Unit. I am pretty sure it's going to be a staple for toss, and used frequently. it just has too many uses to be ignored. I like it that way, I would hate to see them change it's role.

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Originally Posted by SaharaDrac

Despite having a Niche, I agree that the Void Ray isn't going to be a Niche Unit. I am pretty sure it's going to be a staple for toss, and used frequently. it just has too many uses to be ignored. I like it that way, I would hate to see them change it's role.

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Well its about time we agreed on something.

Welcome to the dark side. Have a cookie.

The Void Ray is also the Protoss' only really affordable ATG unit. That in itself is pretty darn useful.

No one is arguing that it will not be useful. 5 took down a hatch faster than a swarm of cracklings, which in itself is fucking impressive. They have solid health, are decently fast, have good range, and can still move while attacking. They do a shit-ton of damage at maximum power.

I believe that the point of this blue quote is to show us that the VR still needs work, however that may manifest itself. Maybe it isnt good enough at its current role (hard to believe) or that its TOO GOOD, maybe its too expensive to be effective, or maybe the dominance of the AtA fighters is giving it a hard time. Maybe something like the Thor actually counters it effectively even though the thor isnt supposed to counter the VR while the VR is supposed to counter the thor...

There are any number of possibilities.

I (IMO) suspect that they are trying to make the VR more effective in its base form so it can take on smaller units better for its cost, while trying to maintain its power against larger units. It might be toss's only (edit: affordable) AtG unit, but it will be rare if all the stalkers, phoenix hydras, mutas, corruptors, marines and vikings out there are making them too risky to be built properly.

Im really hoping they reveal this mystery change soon...

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Originally Posted by KneeofJustice

I (IMO) suspect that they are trying to make the VR more effective in its base form so it can take on smaller units better for its cost, while trying to maintain its power against larger units.

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And this opinion is based on... what? There is NO evidence that "it needs to be better vs smaller units" is what the devs meant, and its contrary to the design of the unit: it SHOULD be weaker against smaller, mass-able units. If anything, the phrase "trying to further define its role" would indicate that's the path they're taking, not making it a more rounded unit but a more focused one.

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Originally Posted by KneeofJustice

It might be toss's only AtG unit, but it will be rare if all the stalkers, phoenix hydras, mutas, corruptors, marines and vikings out there are making them too risky to be built properly.

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The Warp Ray, Carrier, and Mothership all attack AtG, and the Pheonix has Graviton beam so it kind of does too. I'm not sure if you made a typo or your information is whack.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

And this opinion is based on... what? There is NO evidence that "it needs to be better vs smaller units" is what the devs meant, and its contrary to the design of the unit: it SHOULD be weaker against smaller, mass-able units. If anything, the phrase "trying to further define its role" would indicate that's the path they're taking, not making it a more rounded unit but a more focused one.



The Warp Ray, Carrier, and Mothership all attack AtG, and the Pheonix has Graviton beam so it kind of does too. I'm not sure if you made a typo or your information is whack.

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A hunch, nothing more. Dont you think it would be quite difficult to power up a beam against a building with lots of smaller, faster, cheaper units with higher DPS (and often speed) running around chasing you?

I dont think it will ever counter smaller units, and i dont think it will really hold its own against smaller units, but i think that they can give it more of a "raiding " role if they let it harass smaller units better (using cliffs, harassing overlords, whatever). Im not too concerned if you dont agree with me, but i think that it is quite powerful at its "large-HP-killing "role as it is.

And as for saying that VRs are the only AtG, i made a typo. I was referring to the post above mine which said "affordable." Carrier and MS attacking ground.... how useful do you think they are going to be for that in your average game? :D I dont think it is wise to rely on them for that.

And phoenix cannot pick up massive units.

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Originally Posted by KneeofJustice

A hunch, nothing more.

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Please, don't post "hunches." You can post opinions, facts, ideas. But don't start making wild baseless claims lest you end up as uncredible as Archer or Blazur.

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Originally Posted by KneeofJustice

Dont you think it would be quite difficult to power up a beam against a building with lots of smaller, faster, cheaper units with higher DPS (and often speed) running around chasing you?

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I'm sorry, did the Protoss suddenly decrease their army size from 15 to 1 type of unit? God forbid you need a diverse army to compete in SC2! If you're so scared of "smaller, faster, cheaper units with higher DPS (and often speed) running around chasing you" than may I suggest backing up your Void Rays with Zealots, Collossi, or Phoenix?

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Originally Posted by KneeofJustice

I dont think it will ever counter smaller units, and i dont think it will really hold its own against smaller units, but i think that they can give it more of a "raiding " role if they let it harass smaller units better (using cliffs, harassing overlords, whatever). Im not too concerned if you dont agree with me, but i think that it is quite powerful at its "large-HP-killing "role as it is.

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Why do you insist the Void Ray needs to be a raider as well as a glass cannon? The Protoss can already Warp-In 6 units to anywhere on the map using a Warp Prism, and have one unit who can cross terrain tiers with a focused anti-light splash attack, almost like it was designed to harrass perfectly.

You keep trying to make the Void Ray's "large-HP-killing" role sound small and unimportant, when in fact it covers about 2/3 or more of everything you can build in the game. If you want to complain about a niched unit, try the Hellion or something.

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Originally Posted by KneeofJustice

And as for saying that VRs are the only AtG, i made a typo. I was referring to the post above mine which said "affordable." Carrier and MS attacking ground.... how useful do you think they are going to be for that in your average game? :D I dont think it is wise to rely on them for that.

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The Mothership, probably not. But we have no idea how the Carrier will play in SC2, what Blizzard may do to see that its actually viable in standard play.

You're thinking in SC1 terms, and its clear we can't do that.

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Originally Posted by KneeofJustice

And phoenix cannot pick up massive units.

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Good thing the Void Ray doesn't need it to then! The Void Ray will need accompanying Phoenix to pick up "smaller, faster, cheaper units with higher DPS (and often speed)." Is almost like the two units were designed to compliment eachother... but that's crazy right? :rolleyes:

I somewhat agree that the Void Ray's limit is the 2-second powerup aspect. It defeats hit-and-run and forces VR's to be stationary, making it very vulnerable to any sort of counter attack.

Brood Lords play a similar role, deal similar damage and have the added effect of spawning broodlings.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Please, don't post "hunches." You can post opinions, facts, ideas. But don't start making wild baseless claims lest you end up as uncredible as Archer or Blazur.

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I posted it as an opinion back on page 7...

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i wonder if the void ray will be getting a slight shift to a more balanced role instead of just anti-capitol ship (or anti-large-hitpoints, if you prefer)?

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I asked what everyone thinks. You dont agree. 'Nuff said.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Why do you insist the Void Ray needs to be a raider as well as a glass cannon? The Protoss can already Warp-In 6 units to anywhere on the map using a Warp Prism, and have one unit who can cross terrain tiers with a focused anti-light splash attack, almost like it was designed to harrass perfectly.

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Where do i "insist," again? Please dont mischaracterize my position. I said "can" not "must," or even "should."

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i think that they can give it more of a "raiding " role if they let it harass smaller units better

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If you want to have a nice, solid, reasonable discussion about the colossus, please PM me where it wont be off topic. I am happy to share my opinion with you.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

You keep trying to make the Void Ray's "large-HP-killing" role sound small and unimportant, when in fact it covers about 2/3 or more of everything you can build in the game. If you want to complain about a niched unit, try the Hellion or something.

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I am certainly not. Dont be absurd:

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No one is arguing that it will not be useful. 5 took down a hatch faster than a swarm of cracklings, which in itself is fucking impressive. They have solid health, are decently fast, have good range, and can still move while attacking. They do a shit-ton of damage at maximum power.

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I am merely suggesting the possibility that they are not seeing much use on the battlefield for some reason, or that perhaps they are too effective. Dont pretend that VRs are perfect: balancing is an ongoing process.

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Originally Posted by KneeofJustice

I am merely suggesting the possibility that they are not seeing much use on the battlefield for some reason, or that perhaps they are too effective.

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A suggestion/opinion again based on absolutely nothing. Before you post something, PLEASE have an argument to back it up first.

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Originally Posted by KneeofJustice

Dont pretend that VRs are perfect: balancing is an ongoing process.

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In no way have I presented such an argument.

"Please don't mischaracterize my position."

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I somewhat agree that the Void Ray's limit is the 2-second powerup aspect. It defeats hit-and-run and forces VR's to be stationary, making it very vulnerable to any sort of counter attack.

Brood Lords play a similar role, deal similar damage and have the added effect of spawning broodlings.

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The thing is, if my theory about the double-Brooodling attack is correct, the Brood Lord has the opposite effect: its first attack is stronger.

I think the issue they're trying to work out with Void Rays is the fact that they need to keep pace with their target to keep hurting it. Many of their preferred prey are fast enough to either get away or to drag the VRs into unpleasantness. And that this dragging is automatic; VRs stop shooting if you tell them to move, so they only follow the unit on a direct path.

How to solve this? Let them spin up to full power outside of battle. It should take maybe 2-4x as long as doing it while firing, and the spin-up speed upgrade at the Fleet Beacon won't affect this. But it allows their first victim to die quick and bloody.

They're still weak to mass units; killing a couple of Marines or Hydras means nothing to the group. But it makes them much more effective against units that could previously get away.

That's what I meant. Brood Lords play a similar role to the Void Ray, yet are infinitely better because they have the ability to hit-and-run as well as spawn diversion units. The Void Ray's ability to attack air doesn't even compare at this point, considering it would only be an effective air counter to anything larger than itself anyways.

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Brood Lords play a similar role to the Void Ray, yet are infinitely better because they have the ability to hit-and-run as well as spawn diversion units.

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BLs are Tier 3; Void Rays are Tier 2. And they can only attack ground. They had better be better than VRs.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

The thing is, if my theory about the double-Brooodling attack is correct, the Brood Lord has the opposite effect: its first attack is stronger.

I think the issue they're trying to work out with Void Rays is the fact that they need to keep pace with their target to keep hurting it. Many of their preferred prey are fast enough to either get away or to drag the VRs into unpleasantness. And that this dragging is automatic; VRs stop shooting if you tell them to move, so they only follow the unit on a direct path.

How to solve this? Let them spin up to full power outside of battle. It should take maybe 2-4x as long as doing it while firing, and the spin-up speed upgrade at the Fleet Beacon won't affect this. But it allows their first victim to die quick and bloody.

They're still weak to mass units; killing a couple of Marines or Hydras means nothing to the group. But it makes them much more effective against units that could previously get away.

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Sorry, but can you explain this more clearly? I dont quite understand what you are suggesting here...

when you say "spin up" do you mean power up? Are you suggesting that you power up the VRs before the battle and then unleash the first blast as a fully charged one? I think i am mostly being tripped up by the phrase "spin up."

Thanks.

This is also an interesting point. I was horribly worried when VRs had like 4 or 5 range, but then blizzcon 09 introduced the 7 ranged VRs which made me happier at least. I still think they should have siege range, but oh well.

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Are you suggesting that you power up the VRs before the battle and then unleash the first blast as a fully charged one?

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Yes, that's what I'm suggesting.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

And this opinion is based on... what? There is NO evidence that "it needs to be better vs smaller units" is what the devs meant, and its contrary to the design of the unit: it SHOULD be weaker against smaller, mass-able units. If anything, the phrase "trying to further define its role" would indicate that's the path they're taking, not making it a more rounded unit but a more focused one.

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Well, it isn't so crazy, either. Blizzard mentioned they didn't wanted too rock-paper-scissors gameplay, and the unit costs a bunch of resources. If it's countered too hard too easily, it would be a waste of money.

@Nicol: thats actually an interesting idea.

Im wondering if a better system would be to have it so that when it switches targets quickly (within 1 or 2 seconds) it would retain the level of power it was on before.

So if it powers up to level 2 and then kills something, and rapidly goes to the next unit, it would start at level two already. Would take more balancing, but it would certainly encourage micro against the VR.

They could also (to help balance this) give the VR a cooldown like the colossus in the reveal video [0:21 and 0:42] (unlike now where it apparently will just fire continuously until the object is destroyed) . It would continuously ramp up damage until x seconds (its cooldown) and then begin again back at level 1.

It's easy to make the Void Ray more powerfull vs small units. Just increase the base damage until it doesn't sucks too much.

Id play off the fact that its the only unit that can move and shoot. There is allot of potential there.

so has anyone herd anything more about the release date, my boyfriend is really wanting this game... lol

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Originally Posted by nibblezz

so has anyone herd anything more about the release date, my boyfriend is really wanting this game... lol

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My sources tell me it was supposed to start later this month, but Blizzard covertly pushed it back again because they could.