Every click counts (or should it?)

"Gamers also become good at these unintuitive systems, which seems to be another reason for resistance.
That debate happens in StarCraft. There is a unit selection limit, and you can only select certain number of units at once, but now, in modern era, we could have that anything we want. Maybe you could select hundreds of units in StarCraft II, but there are some players who are absolutely against the idea of making the limit whatever they want, because there is a skill in selecting the units you need to select in a game of StarCraft, particularly under time pressure.

Someone can make this argument, but I disagree with it. What these players are really saying is that they want a skill test in the game, which is fair enough, but they are also demanding that the test of skill be a specific skill test that they have all mastered. I think that's not only greedy and self-centred, but short sighted ― there are many ways to test a player's skill in a game like StarCraft, so why does it have to be a test of your ability to manipulate the interface?"

Full article here: http://www.edge-online.com/features/...w-david-sirlin

Really old debate? Yes. Is the beta out yet? No.

Interesting thread started by lowlypawn on TeamLiquid.

Sirlin is a designer who rebalanced the HD remix of Super Street Fighter II, which was effective but controversial.

I tend to agree with him wholeheartedly. People who are complaining about the advancement of SC2's interface are bitter about having to learn the inevitable new skills the game will require, and instead are clinging to the skills they learned in SC1 with an obtuse and closed-minded fervor.

Thoughts?

Oh god its here too. Oh well, might as well post here what I posted over there.

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TL: To follow that up, what types of challenges do you face when trying to balance the needs of the casual player versus the rage of hardcore players like in the progaming community. You had mentioned the macro mechanics being a big one.

Dustin Browder: Sure that's definitely a big one – it's a place where we feel we can definitely do better but it then does break other systems. You know a great example I love reading on Teamliquid and elsewhere were not so much that you guys were missing clicks – some people said that and I didn't agree with that – but that we were missing the difference between a macro player and a micro player. That we were destroying the sense of style of the player. I could be playing a micro game and you could be playing a macro game with both the same race, and we are still playing a very different game from one another. And when I saw that I was like “Ohh!” I was opening my eyes like “Thanks! THERE IT IS! That's great! That's genius! That's exactly what we need to try to accomplish”.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Oh god its here too. Oh well, might as well post here what I posted over there.

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So, basically you agree? I'm amazed because the macro mechanics are nearly the same test than sending workers to resources.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Oh god its here too. Oh well, might as well post here what I posted over there.

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I don't understand what you're arguing. Are you agreeing with the SF guy? Do you think the advancement of the interface is good or bad?

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Originally Posted by SaharaDrac

I don't understand what you're arguing. Are you agreeing with the SF guy? Do you think the advancement of the interface is good or bad?

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Im a centralist. I agree with Blizzards decisions on these matters.



By the way Im loving peoples hats :D

I wonder how I can make my avi christmas themed......

Anyway, yeah, I want skill in the game, but I don't want to already know what I'm doing.

It needs to be easy to learn and hard to master for the pros too.

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Originally Posted by n00bonicPlague

I wonder how I can make my avi christmas themed......

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Just have the tip of the red hat and white puff visible on the side.

I totally agree. I don'y want macro and micro skill to have to be the same level as SC1 being a casual player. I want it tuned down a notch to give way to more mindgames and positional playing and whatnot.

This is why I love what they are trying to do with those watchtowers, LOS blockers, ramp rocks and the requirement for cliff spotting. I want more of those kind of elements in the multiplayer game.

They're genuinely not too many people who disagree, hardcore or not, its hard to support manual mining and 12 unit caps in this day and age.

I'm with Dustin and the SF guy. Sure there is a lot of skills involved in SC1 because the interface is poor but this is "bad" skills for me. There's tons of different ways to demand more skills out of the players without having to go back to the stone age with a poor interface.

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Originally Posted by sandwich_bird

I'm with Dustin

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Chicken_club, you support the approach Blizzard is taking? For some reason I thought you were against macro mechanics and such. If im wrong then my bad had you mistaken.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Chicken_club, you support the approach Blizzard is taking? For some reason I thought you were against macro mechanics and such. If im wrong then my bad had you mistaken.

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lol I always supported this position in all the posts I ever made (here or even at bf) so that's weird. I also remember Nicol saying something similar. I don't know where guys get that :confused:

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I also remember Nicol saying something similar.

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I agree with Browder's comment. I think that many of the mechanics they've come up with are born from not seeing the forest for the trees, and I don't think that they will accomplish what Browder's saying he's trying to do. But I agree with the intent behind creating the mechanics in the first place.