Re: What do you think about giving Protoss a Gas Mechanic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gifted
No one on Blizzard's staff gets any glory or respect if an idea makes it through. It's a team effort on their behalf and for the record, I already know that they've attempted gas mechanics a long time ago. It would be rather disrespectful to "claim the idea as your own" only because you get some sort of blue response saying "we're interested in this discussion". It's also a bit disrespectful to anyone else who discussed points on the subject as it implies that your discussion is more important than those who discussed it with you. You might want to take a step back and consider things like this, it could be perceived as inconsiderate. >.< (Remember.. just because you STARTED the discussion regarding the idea doesn't mean that your idea specifically could be the one examined.. every person in that discussion could bring forward a point that Blizzard values..)
I want to state this in clear nonjudgemental langauge so people dont consider it inconsiderate.
1) I never claimed that all gas mechanics were completly and solely my intellectual proprety. Also im not saying Blizzard IS putting a gas mechanic in the game. Im saying Blizzard is interested in a thread on BNET about protoss gas mechanics (which they said as much). Furthermore I havnt even mentioned one of my gas mechanic ideas in this thread so im confused why you would think Id "claim the idea as your own".
2) Master Theorycrafter is a running joke from a couple posts back.
3) Im trying to spur intellectual discussion on a topic Blizzard has expressed interest in (some thing you have done in the past with roach threads I believe)
4) I appreciate that your just trying to help me be less focused on how people percieve me. All I can offer is that the intent of my statements was in no way focused on how people percieve me. Which brings us to the real point of the post which was,
5) I want people to recognize a pattern in what they initially think is imbalanced and what actually turns out to be imbalanced. Many people claimed that race specific macro would be imbalanced. So far Blizzard has not once said this is a concern.
6) Thats what I want to people to realize. In the past I (and some others) have looked past what initially seems unbalanced and said "hey there is some interesting gameplay here, this might work". We dont let thoughts like "oh it will be different from the other races and therefore it cant be balanced" stand in the way of creative exploration.
7)I firmly believe that you cant know balance just by looking at something on paper. Thats why it pains me that so much of forum chat revolves around it. Instead of talking about deeper matters for which blizzard could actually use the feedback.
Re: What do you think about giving Protoss a Gas Mechanic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nicol Bolas
The concern is this.
Blizzard has deliberately and purposefully (they've said this themselves) made gas more valuable in SC2. No more depletion mining, having to use 6 workers (8 for Zerg) to get the same income as in SC1, increased gas costs for particular units, etc. These are all efforts at making gas into a particularly valuable resource.
Giving the Protoss a mechanism, whatever that mechanism is, to increase their intake of gas is dubious. Let's say it gives the Protoss 10% extra gas compared to the Terrans.
Because gas is more valuable, minerals are comparitively less valuable. So the Terran mechanic must naturally be less valuable per unit mineral. Thus, to keep things in relative balance, something must change. Either Mules/etc must give disproportionately more minerals, or Protoss units that cost gas need to have their gas cost raised.
Why would Protoss units that cost gas have to have their gas cost raised? Granting Protoss extra gas to buy more high gas units would be the benefit to counteract the mineral and unit production advantage of Terran and Zerg.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nicol Bolas
The former (more minerals from Terran mechanic) poses a different problem. As valuable as gas is, Terrans don't need anything but a small amount for Marines and Hellions. Gas to buy a couple of buildings and a small number of upgrades. They could probably get that off of a single geyser. Which means that a Terran now has the resources to power lots of Barrackses with Reactors. That means lots of Marines. The Protoss's counters for mass units don't really show up until the very bottom of the tree (Colossi/HTs); they could easily get steamrolled just from gasless Terrans with proper Mule/etc use.
Thats a whole lot of speculation. For one your saying the protoss would be steamrolled. Isnt that ignoring that protoss has more gas so they can field more high gas units. You know like colossi.
Besides increased terran minerals is how the mechanic currently works. I for one am looking forward to reactor pumping massive balls of death.
Once again it all comes down to balance fears. If thats the only problem people can find with this idea...well then im feeling alot better about this idea :D
Quote:
Yeah, let's look at that history.
This history includes SC1. Where the balance between races collapsed to such a degree that 2/3rds of the Terran matches involved the same units used in the same way.
Its already established that You and I have differing ideas on whether or not starcraft is "balanced". For me racial matchups that involve clearly defined unit profiles does not count as imbalanced. It helps refine gameplay to make it more tightly balanced.
Re: What do you think about giving Protoss a Gas Mechanic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ArcherofAiur
I want to state this in clear nonjudgemental langauge so people dont consider it inconsiderate.
1) I never claimed that all gas mechanics were completly and solely my intellectual proprety. Also im not saying Blizzard IS putting a gas mechanic in the game. Im saying Blizzard is interested in a thread on BNET about protoss gas mechanics (which they said as much). Furthermore I havnt even mentioned one of my gas mechanic ideas in this thread so im confused why you would think Id "claim the idea as your own".
2) Master Theorycrafter is a running joke from a couple posts back.
3) Im trying to spur intellectual discussion on a topic Blizzard has expressed interest in (some thing you have done in the past with roach threads I believe)
4) I appreciate that your just trying to help me be less focused on how people percieve me. All I can offer is that the intent of my statements was in no way focused on how people percieve me. Which brings us to the real point of the post which was,
5) I want people to recognize a pattern in what they initially think is imbalanced and what actually turns out to be imbalanced. Many people claimed that race specific macro would be imbalanced. So far Blizzard has not once said this is a concern.
6) Thats what I want to people to realize. In the past I (and some others) have looked past what initially seems unbalanced and said "hey there is some interesting gameplay here, this might work". We dont let thoughts like "oh it will be different from the other races and there fore it cant be balanced" stand in the way of creative exploration.
Thanks for reply, I hope you took my thoughts in an objective light too, your post suggests as such ^_^.
1. While it's true that you didn't state that, the fact is how it was presented (You being rewarded if the idea came to light) can be perceived as such. In terms of communication, it's the perception of those who receive that matters more than the intent of the portrayer. Still, point granted and if people read that they would have a clearer perception of what you mean. :)
2. Didn't know that *winks*
3. I understood that, and as stated in the first part of my post (which you didn't quote) I even stated it was my opinion... though not clearly. I'm not suggesting to close this thread.. just merely stating that my thoughts differ from yours.
4. S'all good :)
5. I can see the points relating to macro mechanics themselves. While it's my opinion that the gas mechanic won't go far due to game design circulations, (Point A leads to B to C to D to E... which involves a potential resolution on A to work) I still feel that conversations regarding the situation could provide fruitful discussion that could help something else in the game's changes.. be it related or not.
6. I'm guessing that your reply here was more general and not at me. As I suggested in my first post on page two.. I think that this conversation could bear some interesting fruit... I just don't see much progress on a gas mechanic itself due to some fundamental game design issues I personally perceive. *shrugs* My opinion at least, doesn't make it factual. ;)
Re: What do you think about giving Protoss a Gas Mechanic?
No idea if that's workable. Minerals are much more important early game, and you need a lot of them.
Gas is not needed in the same proportion. Most units cost more minerals than gas.
The Zerg have increased unit production, including workers, which in turn increase minerals.
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