You guys will love this - new protoss macro mechanic in the works

Update:

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

What are the new Protoss Macro Mechanics you are experimenting with? Thank you :)

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Sorry, I thought this was a good answer. Yes, there have been some changes and we hope to be able to give you details on them quite soon, as personally I love them already. But we want to make sure that the developpment team is happy with how they play out before announcing details. :)

While you wait, feel free to speculate and write down your own ideas of how you'd like them to work.
-Xordiah





Original Post:

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The #StarCraft2 balance team is experimenting with new protoss macro mechanics.
-Starcraft Twitter

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http://twitter.com/Starcraft



If you were given a chance to redo just the Protoss macro mechanic what would your version look like?

Already posted, but I guess it deserves it's own thread.

Anyway, @ everyone: you're welcome.

I wonder what the people who think that the queen and OC also dont have decision making think about this.


Im going to bet the reworked mechanics give something more "physical". For instance MULE and larva a units where as Proton Charge is more like a buff.


Here is hoping they give the Obelisk Shared Energy Pool :D

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

I wonder what the people who think that the queen and OC also dont have decision making think about this.

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We think they're addressing the worst mechanic first, finally.

Your reading comprehension needs work, because as I have said before, MULES and Spawn Larva are easier to balance than PC because they are simply additive. All the mechanics have solid numbers that can be tweaked, from energy cost and cooldows, to minerals collected, to Larva created. But only PC has a variable stat - the number of Probes effected.

Balance is more important than whether they're APM sinks. That doesn't mean APM sinks are desirable though, and thus that's the next thing that should be fixed.

Demo Im no longer arguing about that with you. Most people dont agree with your crazy hypothesis but us debating it endlessly is just annoying everyone else.

Besides Blizzard have given other reasons for wanting to change the Protoss mechanics and none of them have had anything to do with balance.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Demo Im no longer arguing about that with you. Most people dont agree with your crazy hypothesis but us debating it is just annoying everyone else.

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I'm not arguing. I'm stating a point and answering your unnecessary question with the obvious answer.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Besides Blizzard have given other reasons for wanting to change the Protoss mechanics and none of them have had to do with balance.

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The only other reason they gave was it felt boring. Meaning they agree its an APM sink.

I'm NOT crazy.

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I wonder what the people who think that the queen and OC also dont have decision making think about this.

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It's a start.

If you were given a chance to redo just the Protoss macro mechanic what would your version look like?



The really interesting thing is that they just redid the Obelisk artwork.

Protoss Obelisk
- Proton Charge
- Warp Stabilization

Proton Charge
- 50 energy
- Cast on mineral patch, makes minerals easier to mine. All workers (friendly or enemy) permanently collect 1 extra mineral from the patch per trip.

(Note: A patch is a single Mineral unit. A field is multiple patches.)

Warp Stabilization
- 50 energy
- Temporarily increases the rate at which Protoss structures produce units or research upgrades.

Ahh the old "steal Warp-In's fast unit production" proposal.


I have a new one for the OC

Calldown Reactor
-Temporaly acts as a reactor for any terran building. Even if it has a reactor. What overlap?

Why can't you make the title of the topic related to the content of the post? I hate having to go through each topic every time I want to see if a certain piece of news has been posted before I post just because someone needs to make weird topic titles :(

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Ahh the old "steal Warp-In's fast unit production" proposal.

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Here's the thing. I've never supported the -10 second bonus on Warp-In. I think that being able to Warp-In anywhere is enough of a benefit. Personally, I'd have the Obelisk cast Warp Stabilization on any building to reduce time for anything.

- It promotes the same macro as Warp-In
- It promotes the same macro as PC
- It can be used in many situations (on different building), negating the single target sink issue.
- It can be used in many situations (on different building), curbing the APM sink issue.

As for my revised Proton Charge, by casting it on the minerals instead of the Probes:

- its additive instead of variable
- by making it permanent, its not an APM sink
- the numbers can all be tweaked to increase reward and risk, ex. 2 minerals gained instead of 1
- for risk: it creates times you may not want to cast it, when your opponent can abuse it by stealing your powered up expo for example
- it still runs out naturally when you empty the patch

And finally, both abilities are useful and thus create energy tension.
PC becomes less useful as minerals are mined, but WS retains tension within itself.
PC becomes less useful as minerals are mined, but so do MULES and the current PC anyway.

I'm lovin' tha nu title!

Much appreciated :D

Still not good enough, if you ask me. Give them something new.

new protoss macro mechanicS in the works

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Originally Posted by Dauntless

Still not good enough, if you ask me. Give them something new.

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You havnt even seen them!

As in, testing multiple ideas.

BTW, Argus link had damn well better be sticking around. It doesn't need to be part of any macro mechanics, but I had plans for being able to give certain units energy. Like early-game Phoenix AG harassment, without having to wait for them to get more energy.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

All the mechanics have solid numbers that can be tweaked, from energy cost and cooldows, to minerals collected, to Larva created. But only PC has a variable stat - the number of Probes effected.

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sigh... you repeat this... but it's not this which made them want to change it, it was all the complaining about lack of decision making that did it. Point and click wasnt enough of a decision. The amount of probes effected is only variable if you can't hit all probes at one base. Considering the saturation level is 16, 2 per mineral field, there is no variable unless the cast radius is unable to hit all 16 probes. The cast radius is more than enough to hit all probes at a base, so you'd have to be completely retarded in order to have a variable use of PC. However, considering you keep repeating this "variable" mess, maybe you would have that problem.

Maybe proton charge instead of increasing the amount per chunk can speed up the probe. Proton charge will not be limited only to probes you can use it to as a spell for your army for the sudden boost of speed on a small area.

Start the damn beta already!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Santrega

sigh... you repeat this... but it's not this which made them want to change it

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Never said it was. Its just the main reason I want them to change it.

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Originally Posted by Brutaxilos

Maybe proton charge instead of increasing the amount per chunk can speed up the probe. Proton charge will not be limited only to probes you can use it to as a spell for your army for the sudden boost of speed on a small area.

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I suggested this idea in my editorial, but pointed out that it still sucks because of casting range. Increased movement speed is more necessary outside the base, just like Argus Link and Shield Recharge.

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Originally Posted by Santrega

sigh... you repeat this... but it's not this which made them want to change it, it was all the complaining about lack of decision making that did it. Point and click wasnt enough of a decision. The amount of probes effected is only variable if you can't hit all probes at one base. Considering the saturation level is 16, 2 per mineral field, there is no variable unless the cast radius is unable to hit all 16 probes. The cast radius is more than enough to hit all probes at a base, so you'd have to be completely retarded in order to have a variable use of PC. However, considering you keep repeating this "variable" mess, maybe you would have that problem.

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Or maybe you can't do the maths. PC has, for the same cost, twice the benefit on 16 probes as it does on 8, MULE has a fixed benefit for a fixed cost, that's all there is to it.

Here's a tedious idea :P

Warp Conduit (50 energy?): The Obelisk opens a warp channel to a Nexus, allowing collected resource to flow from one point (Obelisk) to another (Nexus). Can cast on a Nexus anywhere on the map, but still require probes for harvesting.

So let me pull up some approx. stats from SC2Armory:

Nexus = 400 minerals, 750 SP 750 HP, 100 seconds build time.

Obelisk = 200 minerals, 100 SP 100 HP (can change), 70 seconds build time.

Not to mention that an Obelisk still requires Pylon power, bringing the cost up to 300 minerals for a make-shift expansion.


-Psi

I dont think i like your idea demolitionsquid, thats like having protoss being able to make yellow mineral patches. Besides, i dont think theres that much of a risk in doing that, how often do we se people building bases in other peoples naturals or bases?

Im hoping for something like this




Macro Mothership
Proton Charge
Wormhole Transit
Tractor Beam - Ability that allows a Mothership to suck up Vespene gas from an unoccupied geyser

http://www.slashgear.com/gallery/dat...uctionlamp.jpg

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Not to mention that an Obelisk still requires Pylon power, bringing the cost up to 300 minerals for a make-shift expansion.

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I don't think that's cheap enough for a makeshift expansion. Such a flimsy, fragile thing should cost maybe 50 minerals. 100 tops. Assuming that the 100 mineral cost of a Pylon is likewise necessary.

This is an expo you expect to be destroyed, since it can't survive on its own. So you need it to turn a profit ASAP.

However, if you use a Warp Prism to power it, it might work with a 200 mineral cost. Especially since the Prism is likely to be able to escape, and the Prism can carry many of your Probes to safety. And for island expansions, it will already be needed just to get there.

True, I do think the previous Obelisk costs a bit too high for its vitality and immobility.

Maybe the Obelisk can have Recall, more Probes :D??


-Psi

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Originally Posted by SCdude

I dont think i like your idea demolitionsquid, thats like having protoss being able to make yellow mineral patches.

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There is fundamentally no difference between 15 Probes mining 1 extra mineral per trip, and one MULE collecting 15 minerals per trip. PC ALREADY gives Protoss the ability to create high yield minerals - its just by making the Probes high-yield instead.

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Originally Posted by SCdude

Besides, i dont think theres that much of a risk in doing that, how often do we se people building bases in other peoples naturals or bases?

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In your main, its pretty safe, and would be on par with the other races mechanics. But the risk and tension it would create at expos would be the same risk high yields already create.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Already posted, but I guess it deserves it's own thread.

Anyway, @ everyone: you're welcome.

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I think Blizzard should start paying you as an adviser.

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Originally Posted by Hamshank

I think Blizzard should start paying you as an adviser.

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It takes all kinds. More than just programmers and artists make a game.

Wait what exactly is Dsquid claiming credit for?

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Wait what exactly is Dsquid claiming credit for?

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Its a joke about how my article is causing the beta delay because it made the devs see how bad the macro mechanics are.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Its a joke about how my article is causing the beta delay because it made the devs see how bad the macro mechanics are.

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Oh lol i thought you were serious for a second.

Obelisk 2.0:
An empty ring-like structure that floats above ground, and warps nearby minerals inside of itself, completing the structure (needs ??? minerals to be completed).

Time required to fill completely is dependant on the amount of nearby mineral fields (faster when used in the place a Nexus would occupy, spanning all mineral fields).

Abilities available at all times:
- Teleport: the Obelisk can be relocated anywhere within Pylon Power (takes some time to warp, can be attacked at both sides in the process).

Abilities available only when the building isn't complete:
- Regenerate: It allows the structure to take the required minerals to finish the fill process from the "bank".
- Mineral Warping (passive): fills the structure with minerals from nearby fields.

Abilities available only when the building is complete:
- Argus Link, Shield Recharge (no explanation needed).
- Assimilate: transfers the minerals to the "bank". Takes some time to complete. Once the building is emptied from minerals, all abilities in this category cannot be used anymore.

If the building is destroyed, all the minerals inside of it are converted into a mineral orb that can be gathered by any worker.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Protoss Obelisk
- Proton Charge
- Warp Stabilization

Proton Charge
- 50 energy
- Cast on mineral patch, makes minerals easier to mine. All workers (friendly or enemy) permanently collect 1 extra mineral from the patch per trip.

(Note: A patch is a single Mineral unit. A field is multiple patches.)

Warp Stabilization
- 50 energy
- Temporarily increases the rate at which Protoss structures produce units or research upgrades.

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I really like the Warp Stabilization. This is the first "Macro" mechanic idea that really feels like I would enjoy using it during a game. You get benefits for using it repeatedly, but more for using it on the right structures at the right time.

I like it. Gold Star for you.

I wonder if they will make any position based macro for Terran? Protoss can make forward pylons for warp-in, Zerg can make forward overlords and worms. What's for Terran? Salvage? Speed upgrade for buildings so they can be put in forward positions?

The Terrans get ravens which can drop turrets, oh, and Bunkers, and maybe Siege Tanks as well. The Terrans have always had position based macro of this sort, it's just that people tend to ignore it because its old, rather than the Protoss or Zerg stuff which is now.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Im hoping for something like this

Macro Mothership
Proton Charge
Wormhole Transit
Tractor Beam - Ability that allows a Mothership to suck up Vespene gas from an unoccupied geyser

http://www.slashgear.com/gallery/dat...uctionlamp.jpg

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This one get's my vote.

But seriously folks, the Dark Obelisk 2.0 sounds great.
Ok, not great. Maybe just interesting.

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Originally Posted by PsiWarp

Here's a tedious idea :P

Warp Conduit (50 energy?): The Obelisk opens a warp channel to a Nexus, allowing collected resource to flow from one point (Obelisk) to another (Nexus). Can cast on a Nexus anywhere on the map, but still require probes for harvesting.

So let me pull up some approx. stats from SC2Armory:

Nexus = 400 minerals, 750 SP 750 HP, 100 seconds build time.

Obelisk = 200 minerals, 100 SP 100 HP (can change), 70 seconds build time.

Not to mention that an Obelisk still requires Pylon power, bringing the cost up to 300 minerals for a make-shift expansion.


-Psi

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I kinda like this idea.

However, I didn't know that Obelisks need Pylon power.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

What are the new Protoss Macro Mechanics you are experimenting with? Thank you :)

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Sorry, I thought this was a good answer. Yes, there have been some changes and we hope to be able to give you details on them quite soon, as personally I love them already. But we want to make sure that the developpment team is happy with how they play out before announcing details. :)

While you wait, feel free to speculate and write down your own ideas of how you'd like them to work.
-Xordiah