Roachs regeneration - immortality

Does anybody think that the roachs regeneration is overpowered?

The roachs regeneration speed is 15hps and after the the Organic Carapace upgrade 25hps. So this means that after the upgrade the roach only needs 4 seconds or less to regain full health. How are you supposed to counter them early game zvz.

Lets compare how much damage early zerg units do to the roach without the Organic Carapace upgrade.



Hydralisk
attack speed- normal( 1.5sec)
damage to roach- 9
damage per second- 6

So this means that it is imposible to kill a roach with 2 hydras, since the roach regenerates faster than they can do damage. Even with 3 hydras attacking one roach you are only doing 3 damage per second.




zergling
attack speed- fast(0.8608sec)
damage to roach- 4
damage per second- 4.64

3 zerglings attacking a roach are unable to kill the roach since he
regenerates faster, and you need atleast 4 of them to do any damage to the roach and hoping that the roach doesn't attack back :p




roach
attack speed- normal(1.5sec)
damage to roach- 15
damage per second- 10

If you look at this it actually means that 1 roach is unable to kill another roach since the roach regenerates faster , and if you would have 2 roaches attacking eah other they would be attackin each other forever.



Ater the Organic Carapace upgrade, roachs regeneration is increased from 15 to 25 per second. So you would need atleast 3 roaches or 5 hydras or 6 zerglings all focusing fire on 1 roach to be able to kill him.
And this would only work if the roach wouldn't be attacking back.

The same goes for other races units.
( Eveen the siege tank is unable to kill a roch, since it only does 99 damage to him, and before the siege tank fires the 2 shot the roach has alredy full health, and the roach just laughs at high templars and their storms)


I think that the roachs regeneration is to powerfull.Or did i make a mistake and misunderstood the regeneration? What do you think?



http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Roach
note: Attack speeds are taken from StarCraft II Q&A Batch 41



Discuss

I'm not sure just how unbalanced it is, but a little nuance might be nice. Something like the Roach doesn't regenerate while moving, or something.

Pure HP regen seems a little simplistic.

Some people have suggested the roach's regeneration rate was lower in Battle Report II. I generally don't trust those kinds of video analyses, though.

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Originally Posted by Perfecttear

Does anybody think that the roachs regeneration is overpowered?

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Hell. No.

It's great. The purpose is to force opponents to do simple micro, aka focus fire. This pushes opponents to build ranged units as well.

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The roachs regeneration speed is 15hps and after the the Organic Carapace upgrade 25hps. So this means that after the upgrade the roach only needs 4 seconds or less to regain full health. How are you supposed to counter them early game zvz.

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The regen rate is almost irrelevant. I honestly see no point for Organic Carapace (at least so long as the original rate remains 15 hp/second). You're supposed to use focus fire to instantly kill the roach. When you use 8 stalkers to insta-kill a roach, exactly how does its regeneration play any role at all?

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Lets compare how much damage early zerg units do to the roach without the Organic Carapace upgrade.

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*Sigh*

More irrelevance. If you're using only two hydralisks, then you're not understanding how to kill the roach. Buying eleven hydralisks is expensive, but you can keep using those hydralisks to keep killing roaches, one at a time. (Hydralisks seem to have a high RoF, and they certainly outrange roaches, so killing roaches with that many hydras is easy with just a little micro.)

The hydralisk's tier is the same as the roach's now. I have to wonder why anyone would try to use zerglings against roaches. The roach's ability is specifically designed to defeat melee units.

If there's a problem, it could be the roach's hp (since it takes 11 hydralisks to kill one), but examples using 1:1 or 3:3 aren't using appropriate counters. (It's like complaining that siege tanks suck vs immortals ... of course they do!)

With all due respect guys, balance discussions pre-beta are stupid. If those numbers are even still accurate I'll be shocked.

That being said, 15 HP per second sounds about right. 25 could be OP, it kinda depends on the damage of everything else in the game.

@Kimera - a unit that cannot be defeated except by its hard counter, even if that hard counter is just a lot of other types of unit, is a badly designed unit.

Trust me i would like if it works that way, cuz Roach is my Fave unit ^^ but it actually doesnt work that way, that is just Theory Crafting, as Karune said, it is like that on paper but in game they are not that strong as it looks, for example look at BR2, watch closely fight at right Xel' Naga watch Tower, Zerg killed all Terrans units, and then Terrans came with few Marines and manage to kill full Roach(I think it was full since some time already passed before next little fight..)They are not Immortal, but they are pretty hard to kill, and i like that since Zerg needed some early game meatshield ;)

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a unit that cannot be defeated except by its hard counter, even if that hard counter is just a lot of other types of unit, is a badly designed unit.

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First, they can be killed. Just not quickly.

Second, their "hard counter" is more units. It isn't a specific unit or even something that deals a specific kind of damage. It's just bringing more units to battle.

The "hard counter" is a simple tactic - focus fire.

As for "lots of units", except in very early game, why doesn't the non-roach user have "lots" of units? This isn't Warcraft III, it's a game of large armies vs large armies.

If you're using small armies in later game, you're either losing or using a small number of things like thors (two thors one shot a roach; that's not a "lot" of units.)

With 25 HP/s regen, you aren't going to kill them slowly (particularly against a good player who either micros back or burrows), you're going to have to kill them fast.

As I said, it doesn't matter what the hard counter is, if that's the only way to defeat it it's a badly designed unit. Thankfully, the Roach has more than one hard counter (and depending on your definition, I guess focus fire could be a soft counter too).

Again, balance discussions pre beta are bad.

I am sure this will all be balanced for people who know what they are doing and focus fire the roaches, but what about newbs? No one ever thinks about the poor newbs in the world!

Terran newbie A-moves his marines into combat.

Zerg newbie A-moves his roaches into combat.

Going to be a slaughter.

Most units make you better if you micro, but this low tier unit forces your opponent to micro.

I guarantee that all of the new low-skill players will complain that roaches are OP even if they are not for more experienced players.

Um yes, just like how lurkers are OP against marines right?