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Originally Posted by Igromir, Day 1
That totally obliterates all sorts of possible strategies for the Protoss. IMO, if an ability can be cast on the enemy, there's no real reason it can't be cast on you. It's this kind of thing that lets pros make crazy gameplay. Winning because you use an ability in an unexpected or unanticipated way is awesome and a part of what makes games fun to watch and play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Igromir, Day 2
How do you feel about this?
I don't think Phase Shift is abuseable if you cast it on your own guys. You can Phase one of your guys to protect them, but that's just as good as phasing one of your opponent's units.
I'm sure there are or were abilities that were abuseable if you could use them on your own guys, like the old soul hunter's power-up ability.
Banish (the WC3 spell that is Phase Shifts progenitor) has been used for some extremely sexy saves of low hp units in recent WC3 games (particularly by RohJinWook, his Bloodmage use is fantastic vs Orc), so I hope they find a way to allow this in SC as well.
It can easily change as needed once we hit beta tho.
It does bring up an interesting question about the Phoenix anti-gravity ability tho. In WC3, Cyclone (iirc that's what the the equivalent ability is called... I've never really thought about it hehe) can't be cast on your own units which I always found to be a bit of a bummer.
I think that's pretty lame, it should be able to be used on your own units.
Stasis Field to save units from Nukes
Irradiate Science Vessels to wipe out Drones
etc...
I remember I saw that in a "pimpest play" video it was so good that I tried it right away!Quote:
Originally Posted by n00bonicPlague
I don't know why they should limit it to be unable to cast your own units, but I guess they found that something very bad for balance could be done that way so they disabled it... I wish we knew the real reason.
Well the only good reasons for restricting it to enemies is
1. There is No gameplay reason you would cast it on a friendly (ie Yamato cannon)
OR
2. casting on a friendly woud be abusable (soul hunter?)
I can see #2.... especially with Protoss... important unit X may die... save it, and it can recharge shields fairly easily.
It could be they simply wanted the ability to be better balanced for taking an enemy unit out of play, and the value of saving a friendly was much higher in most of the situations... it may go back in beta.
Or it could be that saving a friendly was almost never worth it so they put it in there to prevent the player from makng a stupid move... but I doubt that.
[sarcasm] Yet another reason to choose phase shift over psi storm! [/sarcasm]
It's not so much that. If Phase Out still allows the unit to move (and we have heard nothing either way on this), then you can essentially guarantee that a drop makes it to the location of interest by Phasing it out before it enters contested territory.Quote:
I can see #2.... especially with Protoss... important unit X may die... save it, and it can recharge shields fairly easily.
That could be it... getting into enemy territory would be very important.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
If I remember it does allow the unit to move (possibly even increasing its movement..ie decreased size).. note, it is actually an old ability that has come back.. although perhaps in a different form.
The ability to move does seperate it from the Vortex/Stasis field pretty significantly though.
Perhaps some rule could be made regarding Transports in particular... (similar to the way a specific transport rule is probably needed with Neural Parasite)... although that gets to gimmicky.
Not doing it on your own unis may be better since that way they get to balance it with One use (stop unit X from doing something)
Too be honest I liked HT when it had Temporal Rift + Psi Storm combo (oh hello slow army, welcome to your doom!)
Im not that thrilled at the phoenix "small unit cyclone" AND the HT "big unit cyclone w/drawback". Pick one and dont waste design space.
There are more differences than Big v. small (although that is one)
AG is a Maelstrom not a Cyclone
Phase Shift Probably allows a unit to move
So ....
1. Small, Ground unit cannot shoot, or move, but can take damage, becomes an air unit
2. Unit cannot shoot, or take damage
The Only thing similar is the Cannot Shoot... now admitedly that is a big reason why they will be used.
So Perhaps that should be changed... if you AntiGrav a unit it can still attack (it would still be able to attack G or Air with the same limitations as before)...although the "no move" would eliminate the ability of melee units...(all 4 of them)
So Zealots, Dark Templars, Ultralisks* (can't be AG'd anyways), Zerglings, and Lurkers would still be 'paralyzed' [Lurkers probably couldn't attack because they couldn't burrow]
I think that would separate the abilities well enough (and mean no more AG' ing Siege tanks...unless you intend to kill them)
So it would be good v. breaking Lurkers
Then let AG get used on your own units.... THAT sounds like a neat way to save... my Templar will get overrun with Zerglings, AG him, and he can Psi Storm from safety
Phased units can move. Thats what i meant by drawback. the point is any way you slice it they are still mad similar.
Um no 1 similarity onlyQuote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
AG v. Phase Shift v. Vortex
Target: Small, Ground v. all (large for cost) v. Area (units can enter)..includes friendlies
Shoot/act: No v. No v. No
Move: No v. Yes v. No
Get hit: Yes* v. No v. No
* makes the unit hit by air attacks
Vortex's unique target makes it very unique... its a 'wait for some reinforcements' use only... because you can't defeat the enemy in detail.. they just all enter the Vortex. so you keep your units safe from the enemy (either by putting the enemy in the Vortex or going in yourself)... until your
The only similarity between AG and Phase shift are
1. they both stop the target from shooting
2. they are targeted at a single enemy unit
Now #1 there is a Major similarity, and a primary way they have been used, but...
I'd say they could make them more unique, and make AG Much more interesting by
1. Allowing AG units to shoot/perform non-movement actions
2. Allow AG to be targeted at friendlies.
I think that would move into some new 'design space' by making
1. AG primarily used against enemies so that they will more rapidly be destroyed (by your Phoenixes) rather than neutralizing them, but keeping them alive.
2. AG primarily used on Firendlies to keep them alive (and Active)
So with that Change
Vortex= Wait for reinforcements / give us time to retreat
Phase Shift= Defeat in detail
AG=Kill the enemy faster [dominant] / Protect my unit [interesting]
All abilities should be usable on all units, friendly or enemy, to provide maximum strategic possibly. Anything less is unacceptable.
Thats weak. Ill give you that its unique if thats what you want to call unique. And if you think that pushs the boundaries of a diverse spell set well then thats your opinion. Personally, I think they could do allot better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krikkitone
Some would either be totally unbalanced (Consume on enemies?) or totally useless in Any strategic sense (Yamato on Friends?... as long as Feedback is involved that might make sense..otherwise)Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
The big problem is different strategic uses of an ability May have different values, and if Blizzard wants an ability to be used in one strategic sense, but there is a Different strategic sense that is more valuable, then they can't properly balance the ability around what they Want it to help the player do... not without adding some restrictions.
So Neural Parasite is uncastable on Psionics, ? maybe because otherwise it was overpowered v. High Templars and under powered v. others
So Phase Shift gets uncastable on Friendly, because the value of the invincible transport is far more than the value of the intended , (neutered ulta/archon/thor/BC/Carrier/Broodlord)... and they figure retaining That use is worth losing the "save yourself" usage.
As for Vortex's target... It is very unique in that it makes it Strategically different....
You can't defeat the enemy in detail with Vortex, like you can with Phase Shift or AG (currently).
If you try to Vortex 1/2 the enemy, the other 1/2 just flees into the Vortex and wait for their friends to come back to join them. (you might be able to do it if you Vortex the air/ranged half over a cliff from the other ground 1/2)
It provides some temporary disruption, but you need to either have reinforcements or be running away for it to be useful.
That is the problem with AG and Phase Shift, not that they are too similar, but that their similarity results in similar strategies.
And AG would make far more sense to change than Phase Shift, as it has more potential uses than "defeat in detail" (primary use of Phase Shift since it can't be used for 'save friendly'
As I recall units inside a Vortex can be shot at.
I think they don't allow Fade on your unit because the ability make a unit unable to attack, but this way spellcasters would be able to use their abilities nevertheless.
I mean: Fade your HT and send him alone to cast Psi Storm without any retaliation....just plain and simple. I think that spellcasters would be the problem.
If they Fade would negate spellcasting:
on the one hand --> I see no problem on using it on my units (well...transport would be an issue as many of you have pointed it out)
on the other hand --> If Fade negates spellcasting too...well may be a bit overpowered.
Maybe the easiest solution would be to balance Fade and Psi Storm energy costs and cooldown times to avoid this simple-single unit- combo.
It prevents all units from doing anything. All they can do is either move or sit still.
I think I saw a report in IgroMir (somewhere anyway) that phased units can move and but can't attack or cast spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
I suspect itīs the same limitation that keeps Goblin sappers from being target of the Invisibility spell.
Itīs really usefull most of the time but in certain cases itīs definetly broken. Itīs easy to see how Fade on the Prism can be problematic.
Not sure how long the SC version lasts, but the WC3 version didn't last very long (well, on LVL3 it kinda did) AND caused the unit to move very slowly. Was still used for some sick escapes but meh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
I wouldn't be overly worried - you could also institute a "doesn't work on air units" clause if you want.
I agree with Arby. "Sweet I can get my transport past his bunker. Oh great now his army is camped out below my transport and hes building turrets."Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenArbiter
Of course you could time it so it wore off right when you got to your destination but that brings up another point. The most important transport action occurs with the opponent has little defence anyway (like a reaver drop). Once you know the opponent has gone for drops youll start making mineral line defense which means as soon as your transports come out of phase thell be shot down.
Eh, you get the same affect if another spell caster has temporal rift, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
The HT spell is more like banish from WC3 than anything. And the Phoenix ability is a reversed ensnare. Neither is anything like cyclone really. Plus, one immobilizes and one prevents action. And they come from completely different units, from completely different branches of the tech-tree.Quote:
Im not that thrilled at the phoenix "small unit cyclone" AND the HT "big unit cyclone w/drawback". Pick one and dont waste design space.
Anyway, I think Phase Shift should definitely work on your own units. Impose the slower movement speed if abuse is an issue. There are just way too many cool strategies that can be used with it to limit it to a crowd control spell.
I know the differences. I just dont think their big differences. I think most of the time your using the spell for the same role.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
Are you Sure about that?... from the few graphics of it, it appeared that once a unit went into a vortex, it disappeared (ie there was nothing to shoot at)Quote:
Originally Posted by n00bonicPlague
Also the Phoenix ability is Not like Ensnare/Web, because Ensnare/Web lets a unit continue to attack.... which I think Should be done for Anti gravity.
If AntiGravity Was trully a "Reverse Web" where it allowed the unit to continue to attack, then it would NOT be used like Phase Shift is (defeat the enemy in detail by killing 1/2 of them, then the other 1/2).
However, last information I had, AG was
No action, no move, yes to get hit
One problem with making the Phase shift slow movement is that it renders it closer to AntiGrav in terms of increasing "immobilization"... also if you want to make it a "save unit" then you need to allow that unit to retreat.. which means it needs to move at a reasonable speed.
Perhaps introduce something like
Phase Shift
1. unit can't do anything but move (and see)
2. unit can't get hit
3. Unit has speed capped at ~10-15 (rather than 50% reduction)
4. Unit has 0 collision size....so that it helps a unit that wants to retreat
Or possibly.... when a unit is Phase Shifted, all units it is carrying immediately drop .... Possibly even to the nearest land if you want it not to be an instant "Kill the transport's cargo"
What do you think about that rule.... it seems ok with lore, and it doesn't restrict the target in a wierd way (as in 'no Transports'... which would be wierder than 'no goblin sappers')
so
Phase Shift... lasts X seconds
1. unit can't do anything but move (and see)
2. unit can't get hit
3. Unit drops all cargo on nearest land tile [Interceptors don't count as cargo]
OK so proposed changes...
Phase Shift... can cast on friend, but causes target units to instadump cargo on nearest land tile (target unit can't be picked up either?)
Anti Grav.... can cast on friend, but targets can continue to attack and cast spells (to differentiate strategically from Phase Shift+Vortex)
Vortex... if it let's you get shot at, stop that.
What do people think of that?
I thought they said if you anti-grav a baneling it can kill your phoenixes if it self-destructs :P?
But banelings do damage when they die... I don't think it is that they can do their normal attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenArbiter
If they can then... well I can see baneling being the exception (lifted baneling doing Air damage instead of Ground damage).. but otherwise they should do the same type of damage.. ie a lifted Hellion/Siege Tank/Marauder/Immortal/Roach/Reaper should be able to shoot units on the ground below it, but not ones in the air
I agree, it should be able to be casted on your own units. After all, the energy requirement limits you. I don't think it could be abused, and it can open a bunch of interesting uses.
Oh, the problem is that if the unit can move, it can bypass defenses, right? :-/
But then, you would better NOT use it near your own defenses, as the enemy can exploit it.
They can't be shoot at. It's like Stasis Field, but additional units can be sucked-in if they get to close.Quote:
Originally Posted by n00bonicPlague
Temporal Rift slows units down (including moving, casting, and shooting), and they are still allowed to be attacked.
The energy requirement might not limit you enough... which means they would need to increase the cost because 'Phase Shifted Warp Prisms are OP'... and if they balance that out, then that may be the only worthwhile use of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norfindel
I think it is far better to make Phase Shifted units dump their Cargo (they can't hold it in because they are Phase shifted)... ie a bunch of marines suddenly find themselves dropping from the Medivac... the Energy buffers in the Warp Prism suddenly rematerialize items as the Prism dematerializes, etc.
It would make it a way to stop drops... but the units would still be there.
Interesting solution. But what would happen over water?Quote:
Originally Posted by Krikkitone
Well that is where I would Probably say Nearest Land, even if its the other side of the map.... makes it a unique Glitch... it might not be a good drop defense on an island map because as soon as it is close enough for you to Phase Shift the enemy Transport, the units would be instadropped on our island anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
The other solution might make it Too good for stopping island drops (units are destroyed)
and given that High Templars are Land units, you won't be Phase Shifting something far out in the middle of the Water/Lava, etc.
[some mubojumbo lore about transitioning out of this universe causing spacetime distortions could justify it]
Id love to see the ability changed to this
Phase Reconstruction
-Can only be cast on a single friendly unit
-Unit cannot move or attack
-Unit cannnot take damage
-Unit regenerates hitpoints and effect wears off when units has fully regenerated hit points
So you can save that collusus thats about to go down but then you have to make sure the collosus isnt surrounded by enemies when the effect wears off.
Nah, I've accepted that Protoss don't heal in the war zone... they go back home, and are repaired there.
It would be better if they reinstated that shield mechanic
If phasing Warp Prisms becomes a serious problem, they can easily write some lore that you can't phase a unit that has phased units inside of it, or else they will be obliterated. Then it becomes a question of whether to automatically prevent the phasing of a Warp Prism or to kill everything inside of it when it does get phased.
Well the problem with that isQuote:
Originally Posted by n00bonicPlague
1. using it against enemy Protoss Warp Prisms... (the super anti Drop ability)
OR
2. using on an Allied non Protoss transport (mass Phased Overlord/Medivac drop)
To prevent it from being overpowered against enemies (kill all cargo) or overpowered on friends (carry cargo invulnerably)
Then the solution should involve
1. Non use against transports [non use v. loaded transports makes it act as a scout for transport contents]
or
2. "Ejection" of cargo
or
3. non use v. Friendly and let transports carry cargo invulnerably
or
4. nonuse v. Enemy and kill cargo
I'd favor
2 followed by 1 then 3 then 4
Alright here's a suggestion.
Make it so that any phased units lose ALL abilities or functions of any sort, the only thing they can do is move.
They can't cast abilities, transform, or unload. This way, guaranteeing that your transports make it into an enemy base doesn't guarantee a successful drop as you'll have to wait till your transports finish being phased before being able to unload.
That isnīt much of a limitation though. It just adds the requirement of propper timing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho