Thats another thing. Anyone else notice how big the thor is coming out of the factory?Quote:
Originally Posted by Blazur
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Thats another thing. Anyone else notice how big the thor is coming out of the factory?Quote:
Originally Posted by Blazur
Actually that would be another cool use of that graphic... when the Thor first is built, have it appear in the 'folded' sate and rapidly unfold.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
With the precedent of Reavers, it should be safe that there needs to be an additional delay from unload to the unit being able to shoot.Quote:
Originally Posted by pure.Wasted
The comment about Ravens being able to take out an expansion by themselves should be a clear sign than the Terran spells needs some more variation, instead of just dealing damage. It seems that 90% of the Terran spells are about dealing damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by pure.Wasted
I have the idea that there are too many units with attacks very near 10, and that makes the Immortal a bad idea, as there will be countering units already there in numbers. It's too focused against heavy-hitters. A possible solution could be adding some "Shield armor", maybe even raise their Shields, so that fast-attack units aren't so affective against it, and lowering it's attack to compensate.Quote:
Originally Posted by pure.Wasted
The problem with that, is that probably they have a heavy attack to be able to quickly counter Tanks and similar units, before they can damage stuff, but i think that buffing the Immortal "tanking" aspect while lowering it's attack could work. After all, if the Tanks are busy shooting the Immortals for more time, they're doing their job, even if their attacks aren't as effective. Other units will be able to reach the Tanks, and kill them, while the Immortals take the heat.
Immortal Shields should be difficult to take down by all kinds of units, as the Shields are their most important aspect.
That's the thing. Debuffs, by and large, just aren't worth the cost in a game like SC, where units have a high damage-to-Hp ratio and unit turnover is exceedingly high.Quote:
The comment about Ravens being able to take out an expansion by themselves should be a clear sign than the Terran spells needs some more variation, instead of just dealing damage. It seems that 90% of the Terran spells are about dealing damage.
Take Lockdown. This is a single-target spell that renders a single mechanical unit useless. What are you going to use them on? Locking down a few Stalkers isn't worth the effort or energy, since there will be plenty more where they came from. Stasis is reasonable because one cast hits many units, so less effort is needed. Even in SC2 with smart-casting, Lockdown just isn't worth it.
Except of course, for those big-ticket mechanical units. Unfortunately, Lockdown then becomes so strong that it makes those units utterly useless. If your investment in 5 BCs can be nullified by 5 castings of a cheaper spell, then why bother?
If most debuffs are off the table as far as spellcasting is concerned, what's left? Damage. Or maybe something like Dark Swarm. But outside of oddball effects like that, it's damage.
As with everything, there is a perfect price for a unit. A unit with 100 shields, 200 health, and whatever the Immortal's damage is with its bonus vs. Armored, GtG only, etc, built at a Robo facility: this unit has a particular cost.Quote:
I have the idea that there are too many units with attacks very near 10, and that makes the Immortal a bad idea, as there will be countering units already there in numbers.
Thus, that is how much the Immortal should cost. It should be priced as though it did not have its Hardened shields. Thus, the hardened shields become a nice bonus, rather than "the reason I exist."
I actually think Immortals will be just fine as they are (or pretty close). While there are a limited number of units anti-ground with plus 10 (Seige Tank, DT, Stalker?, Collosus?, Archon, Thor?, Ultralisk, and maybe others), there's also Defensive structures. I see Immortals as great units for seiging, taking half the damage of Photon Cannons and some % of Spine Crawlers (how much do they do?). As for bunkers, how do they process damage? 6+6+6+6 pf 24?
Yeap, bunkers are now awesome since they can be salvage (unless they removed that).
They also have that jumbo bunker upgrade, unless they removed that too. And I think they had 1 more, can't recall what it was, unless they also removed that one.
The advantage of Dark Swarm is it is an AoE effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
That is the type of Debuff that can work.... and some other Debuffs can work as well
AoE debuffs-> Time Bomb, Spore Cloud*, Vortex, Infestor's Ensnare*, EMP
Target Debuff->Neural Parasite, Phase Shift, AG, Targeting Drone
Buffs->Cloak, D.Matrix**, Warp
??->Point Defense, Forcefield, Hallucination
Damage Dealing->Psi Storm, Snipe, Yamato**, Plasma Torpedo**, 250 mm Gun**, Hunter Seeker, AutoTurret, Infested Marines, Fungal Infestation*, Disease*
* High uncertainty about their current state
** not an ability of a "Caster" unit, just single ability of a unit with energy
AG is not a debuff; it's primary effect is to make the unit flying so that the AtA Phoenixes can shoot them. It simply has the secondary effect of making the unit unable to act.Quote:
Target Debuff->Neural Parasite, Phase Shift, AG, Targeting Drone
And I'm pretty sure the Targeting Drone isn't in the game anymore. People have talked about the Ravens abilities and it wasn't mentioned recently.
And yet, both Spore Cloud and the Infestor Ensnare-type ability were removed.Quote:
AoE debuffs-> Time Bomb, Spore Cloud*, Vortex, Infestor's Ensnare*, EMP
My point isn't whether these abilities exist; it's how useful they are. Ensare in SC1 was virtually never useful, despite these advantages:
1: It was on a relatively low-tier caster.
2: It was on a relatively cheap caster.
3: The building for that caster was needed to even get Tier 3 units.
Now, maybe Ensnare would be more useful in SC2, since Banelings don't require the micro that Lurkers do. Or maybe it wouldn't.
Devising a pure-support ability that remains useful is hard. In SC1, the only ones that saw any real use were Dark Swarm, Stasis, Recall, and EMP.
BTW, did anyone else notice that casters seem to only have 2 spells now (except the Ghost, who has Cloak and Nuke)? Maybe Blizzard's leaving room for the expansions to add a few new spells.
These don't exist anymore.Quote:
Fungal Infestation*, Disease*
There is no reason it needs that secondary effect... at allQuote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
Essentially you have a mini lockdown
Also being able to be made a Target counts as a debuff to me.
As for Casters having only 2 spells....
Ghost has 3 (4 if you count Nuke... but its not a "spell" so)
High Templar has 2 (3 if you count Archon Warp..but same as above)
Disrupter has 2?
Mothership has 3 (warping ability)
Infester.... Totally unknown, last I heard it was 3 though
Overseer... similar to above although it was 2
Raven...3
so ones with 3=4
ones with 2 = 3 (2 of them are Protoss which has 3 casters while thoe others only have 2)
I'll redo the abilities looking at BW, since I don't think they will cut stuff from that
AoE Debuffs
Maelstrom, EMP, Ensnare, Stasis**, Disruptive web
AoE Buff
Darkswarm, Recall**
Target Debuff
Blind, Mind Control, Lockdown
Target Buff
Cloak, Defensive Matrix, Restore
Damage
Plague, Psi Storm, Irradiate*, Broodling**, Yamato
??
Parasite, Hallucinate
*partially acts as a debuff
**Unusual effects, so not a pure classification
Basically the issue with a Targeted Debuff is...
It will be either underpowered for low level targets, or overpowered for igh value targets... so you go with the first option.... you balance the ability around the high value target
Emphasis on "mini." It doesn't work on anything that's worth holding without wanting to kill. Massive units can't be AG'd. The closest thing to a big-ticket item you might AG would be Siege Tanks. And even then, it's more about destroying them than holding them still.Quote:
There is no reason it needs that secondary effect... at all
Essentially you have a mini lockdown
Only two were mentioned in the most recent info: Neural Parasite and Spawn Infested Marines.Quote:
Infester.... Totally unknown, last I heard it was 3 though
I'm pretty sure only two were mentioned in the most recent info.Quote:
Raven...3
Yes. And what percentage of those buffs/debuffs are in general use? Half, at best.Quote:
I'll redo the abilities looking at BW, since I don't think they will cut stuff from that
You're grasping. Cloak is something you do to yourself. It's like Stim or Siege Mode.Quote:
Target Buff
Cloak, Defensive Matrix, Restore
There's a third in Day 3, which was just put up on SCL. It's an AoE Ensnare that, after about 10 seconds, immobilizes the targeted units completely for 10 seconds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
It's an interesting idea to FORCE players to stick around (if they want to protect their immobilized units)... especially in conjunction with units like Banelings and Lurkers.
edit: Raven also has 3.
I like him. He agrees that the Helion is a terrible unit and a poor replacement for the Vulture. It is a shitty, un-microable unit that takes no skill to use. Get rid of it.
Its called Fungal Spore and it's been in for months.
Infestor
Fungal Spore
Neural Parasite
Spawn Infested Terran
Raven
Passive Detection
Hunter Missile
Auto-Turret
Point Defense Drone
Have you used it personally? Can you offer proof it cannot be micro-ed and takes no skill? All evidence so far points to otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Operatoring
Ok. It stops when it attacks, and in the BR reports no one has Patrol-Attacked with it. Seems to me like you just back up, and fire, back up and fire. Rinse and Repeat. Also no mines, less micro and usability in the mid to late game. Scrap it and come up with something more original and interesting and fun to play with and... better.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
If the game has no glitches, Patrol-attack is useless, which makes sense, because the attack command is to attack, and the patrol command is to patrol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Operatoring
Just an FYI: that whole "back up, fire, back up, fire" thing has a term. Its called MICRO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Operatoring
I'm not supporting the Hellion by any means. I hate the thing too.
But your reasoning is bullshit.
Also Adolf likes Hellions.
I'm pretty sure. He doesn't start out with that, but by Day 2 you can definitely tell his opinion on them has changed, and he talks a lot about the micro he manages to get out of them in the separate match articles.
So... I'm on the fence on this unit, for now. Gameplay-wise I'm liking it, flavor-wise, not really sold just yet.
He said that on day 1. He changed his mind on Day 2.Quote:
I like him. He agrees that the Helion is a terrible unit and a poor replacement for the Vulture. It is a shitty, un-microable unit that takes no skill to use. Get rid of it.
New game, new unit. No surprise it took him a while to get good use out of it.
Hellions are all about the crossfire, microing them into positions to get maximum flame coverage.
Most likely needs a redesign though, I love the concept too, but that movement - with wheels...just doesn't do it for me.
No-one's come up with an alternative design, It is difficult in 3D, I think even the vulture would look just as bad with the quick turning micro.
Personally the only unit that would match that movemtn would be some kind of spider, 4-6-8 legs with flamethrower on top, not bad, but not very terran..The hellion skitters more than drives.
-
I think the immortal is fine, people keep forgetting how hard it hits, it shouldn't be invulnerable too!
On the subject of massive units, the thor is indeed the only one that can hit air too, I don't thinik it would be wise to have super-fast thor micro, they are meant to stand their ground (though I wish the turn speed was slightly reduced). Add to this, dropships flying closer to the ground in general and I think the 3D problem will not be so jarring.
Just a question to discuss on the matter. IN SC1, the tank never turned, only the turrent did. It enabled it while out of siege mode to provide an interesting attack where the tank would "keep moving forward" while shooting backwards at a stop.
It's obvious that Blizzard has tried this, I'm sure something in it didn't feel right. I'm curious if any of you think that it would be a better animation than the spazmatic twisting effect when micro'd.
Thoughts?
Found one!Quote:
Originally Posted by emikochan
http://www.journaldugamer.com/images...mmander_06.jpg
Hey, what game is that?
SC
erm by which i mean Supreme Commander
And that it's got lots of health, even for a Protoss unit. 300 total Hp is nothing to write off, even without the Hardened shield.Quote:
I think the immortal is fine, people keep forgetting how hard it hits, it shouldn't be invulnerable too!
If I remember correctly, 4 Immortals in the Protoss announcement demo kicked plenty of reaper ass before being killed by them. And hell, they said Reapers were "good" against Immortals.
Sure, they're good, that doesn't automatically mean the Immortals are soft material.
According to the latest article that is actually the WORST way to use the Hellion. The flamethrower apparently needs itīs time to deal full damage, using it like a Vulture minimises the damage. That way the firing animation makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Operatoring
No wonder itīs so unpopular, people try to pretend itīs the vulture.
David Kim seemed to do just fine with it. And since he has a bit more Hellion experience, I'm going to go with his idea of how Hellions work.Quote:
According to the latest article that is actually the WORST way to use the Hellion.
The main visual issue with that is that the tiny wisp of flame that the Hellion throws out is pathetic looking. It doesn't look like it should hurt things. The initial flame should be much faster and stronger looking.
I assume that originally Adolf attempted to take even less time attacking, moving IMMEDIATELY after the burst comes out... from where Kim's usage is a "happy medium."
The attack does need to compensate for this. I mean, if this is what we're going to be seeing day-in, day-out as spectators of pro games, the graphics should correspond, especially if we know that's what's going to happen going in.
I remember it differently. Kim seemed to "park" them too long instead of moving them right behind the Probes. With the newly revealed damage mechanic that makes sense and so does the animation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
The tiny wisp of flame is ok since it hardly deals damage. The point is that the animation correctly reflects that only letting the Hellion shoot for a fraction of the animation deals only a fraction of the Damage.
Making the animation for the initial flame "stronger" is only consistent if the first flame also does more damage.
I agree that there should be a new flame animation... but not intially. I think that after you get the +10 damage to light upgrade, the flame should be more noticable. This would help provide an interesting visual que before and after the upgrade.
Ultimately, I don't expect it to be "much" more, just a little "more". (just a random thought on the subject that seems to be a good compromise between the sides of the subject)
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/su..._build_btn.png
More like that =p
I haven't read the tread, I just want to comment on the article. Overall it was very good and informative but there is one ting I don't agree with
Both Protoss and Zerg don't have scan and scouting terran has always been impossible. In SC BW there weren't many different things that the terran could do, especially against P, so this wasn't a big deal. Here though, it seams that terrans can mix it up a lot so not scouting is as hurtful for P and Z as it is for T. Saying that I don't see why T should get a free scout and the other races should not. Since P and Z don't have scan it is only natural that T has to pay for it. If you don't use scan your scouting is not worst than your opponents so if you use Mule you would have the same scouting information and the same economy as P and Z. If you want better scout you will sac your economy.Quote:
In practice it turns out that Scan is used all the time, and there's no energy left over for MULEs. How are you supposed to NOT scan your opponent?
Planetary Fortress is a bit overpowered as it is so I see no point in making it even more so. If this happens I see no point in not getting it especially in exposQuote:
-MULEs are possible from Planetary Fortress
I have always firmly believed that MULES at the PF is the only way to make the PF viable outside corn expos. The choice betweenQuote:
Originally Posted by ELESSAR
1. economy boost from MULE to keep up with the economy of the other races mechanics
2. and extra, immobile defense at an expo
has always been lopsided IMO. The ability to create more defense/salvageable defense/mobile defense out of the extra minerals gained from MULE has always overshadowed the PF. Having both the PF and OCC makes the choice between
1. extra immobile defense
2. scan and supply drop
which I feel is a more balanced tradeoff.
Before the last battle report i would agree but now not so much. PF is almost indestructible and since it looks like T is just as immobile as in SC1 static defense would be very important. PF means that the enemy has to commit a large force to take down your expand, a force that will not be with his main army. No more 6 lings forcing you to lift. The only problem I see is siege units because if you use something with big range you will still need only a few units to destroy it. However defense and economy >>>>> scan + supply except in some early rush
Demo, resources in Starcraft are one of the most important things, but they are not the only thing.