IgroMir 2009: imba.Adolf[RA] reports his SC2 opinions

I wonder if people even consider that...

A) Blizzard has already thought about all the possible consequences of doing what they did with the Thor.
B) The other side of the coin? Thors are TANKS, what are the ramifications of NOT allowing them to be seen by the enemy, or allowing medivacs to carry 2 Thors?
4 Medivacs (easily easily built with the reactor) dropping down 4 Thors? Say GG to your main building, I think the BR4 speaks for itself, we all saw how fast the Nexus went down, in less than TWO seconds from a few barrages.

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I just don't want to see the Thor speed-morph into a box and back as its being loaded/unloaded. It ruins my suspension of disbelief. Is that a crime or something?

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Is your suspension of disbelief not already ruined by the fact that Thors insta turn 180 degrees on a dime? And that Hellions don't move like real buggy vehicles should? Also by the fact that having it insta transform into a box while being loaded is infinitely more realistic than just disappearing inside a small transport.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

I just don't want to see the Thor speed-morph into a box and back as its being loaded/unloaded. It ruins my suspension of disbelief. Is that a crime or something?

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And a Thor disappearing into thin air when it's not even tangentially underneath the Medivac doesn't ruin your suspension of disbelief? Or Hellions and Siege Tanks? It sounds a bit like a double-standard.

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I never suggested them dominating air. Just that they needed to be better against armored and air than light and ground. Goliath in spirit, not in stats. Geez.

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Well, we're talking about the game from imba.Adolf's impressions, and in these impressions the Hydra DOES dominate the air, which is why I used those same words. It dominates air thoroughly and completely. It's also effective on the ground. That's why I raised the question.

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Didn't you just try to establish it has one?

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He means it doesn't need a DIFFERENT/NEW animation. The one it has makes perfect sense and works.

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Didn't you just try to establish it has one?

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I'm saying it doesn't need a special, Colossus-only animation. All Protoss units have a beam-up/beam-down visual effect. So the Colossus is not unique.

Well if the Warp Prism can only fit 1 Colossus, it qualifies for a special animation due to the exposure of both other races' massive ground units as visual indication.


-Psi

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2. Are we OK with the fact that Reapers are completely useless on certain maps/certain positions on certain maps?

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I don't believe that they are. I know that's what he said. But his impressions are only from a short period with the build.

Remember: Vultures were originally considered worthless. Hell, even Valkyries are being seen in Terran builds now.

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3. Is the Hydras' complete dominance of air units what we want from the unit?

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No.

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4. Is the Ghost just too damn good right now? Should the Nuke be scaled back to make more room for Siege Tanks?

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Wait for Beta.

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5. Are we OK with Ultralisks being generally very cost-effective at everything? That is, taking hits AND dishing them out? In SC1 they were only useful for the former.

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Yes. But this isn't anything new for the SC2 Ultralisk. Indeed, they've been nerfed: you now have to upgrade to give them their x2 attack.

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Well if the Warp Prism can only fit 1 Colossus, it qualifies for a special animation due to the exposure of both other races' massive ground unit.

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Unless something recently changed, the Prism can carry 2. And Colossi aren't nearly as dangerous as Thors, 4 of which can reduce your main building to ashes in seconds.

So why can't the Thor have the same animation as every other Terran unit?

The only argument you have is size, and IMHO size means dick all.

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So why can't the Thor have the same animation as every other Terran unit?

The only argument you have is size, and IMHO size means dick all.

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So why CAN'T the Thor have a unique animation? The only evidence you have against that is well, nothing but your personal opinion.

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Originally Posted by Pandonetho

So why CAN'T the Thor have a unique animation? The only evidence you have against that is well, nothing but your personal opinion.

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You bet your ass.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

So why can't the Thor have the same animation as every other Terran unit?

The only argument you have is size, and IMHO size means dick all.

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Why does size mean dick all? Blizzard is saying, "the Thor is the only unit physically incapable of fitting inside of its intended transport." They're saying the Ultralisk has no problem fitting inside the Nydus Worm, and the Colossus's data has no trouble being stored in the Warp Prism.

What's the problem?

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You bet your ass.

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So in conclusion, you're just whining, which is not a valid reason for removing the Thor's visual pick up.

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Originally Posted by Pandonetho

So in conclusion, you're just whining, which is not a valid reason for removing the Thor's visual pick up.

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In conclusion:

- knowing/not knowing what your opponent is dropping is important
- other races carrying the Thor
- animation lag
- size doesn't matter

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In conclusion:

- knowing/not knowing what your opponent is dropping is important
- other races carrying the Thor
- animation lag
- size doesn't matter

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So in conclusion, you're now crying about possible imbalances which you've yet to provide any evidence for.
Second, if you're not talking about any possible imbalances, than I don't see the difference between all the gameplay affecting points you made.

So tell me why your opponent should NOT be able to see a unit which can destroy your main building in seconds, while being hard to take down?

What other unit in the whole game drops and deploys to destroy a main building in seconds? Marine drops take a combined total of time longer than any Thor drop. And 8 marines will not even do the same damage that a Thor will with its barrage.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

- knowing/not knowing what your opponent is dropping is important

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As Nicol said, there is no reason to believe balance was not taken into account, and that this visual quirk is not actually a necessary part in keeping the Thor from getting out of hand.

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- other races carrying the Thor

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This will happen SO rarely that it's not worth taking into account. For what it's worth, I'd LIKE an Overlord carrying a Thor animation, but only if Blizz has absolutely nothing else to spend time on.

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- animation lag

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There is no evidence to suggest this animation lags the Thor at all. In other news, other units have animation lag on loading and unloading and work fine.

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- size doesn't matter

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Size does matter.

Thanks for playing! :)

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

As Nicol said, there is no reason to believe balance was not taken into account, and that this visual quirk is not actually a necessary part in keeping the Thor from getting out of hand.

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No evidence for or against.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

This will happen SO rarely that it's not worth taking into account. For what it's worth, I'd LIKE an Overlord carrying a Thor animation, but only if Blizz has absolutely nothing else to spend time on.

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No evidence for or against.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

There is no evidence to suggest this animation lags the Thor at all. In other news, other units have animation lag on loading and unloading and work fine.

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No evidence for or against.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

Size does matter.

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Opinion.

Thanks for playing! :)

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

No evidence for or against.



No evidence for or against.



No evidence for or against.

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Thanks for... telling me that three of the four points in your argument... are actually inarguable?

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Opinion.

Thanks for playing! :)

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Sure is! As long as we agree that it comes down completely to opinion, everything is hunky dory. Except my opinion won and yours didn't. :D

Opinions can't win. They can only be implemented, and its not even beta yet.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Opinions can't win. They can only be implemented, and its not even beta yet.

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So what you mean to say is that my opinion might only be winning temporarily? ;)

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

So what you mean to say is that my opinion might only be winning temporarily?

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I'm saying that you're the hare, and I'm the tortoise.

So I should be afraid of going to sleep during the Beta, lest the Thor suddenly finds himself as disappeared as everyone else?

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

So I should be afraid of going to sleep during the Beta, lest the Thor suddenly finds himself as disappeared as everyone else?

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Not what I meant at all. Archer has taught you well.

Squid is just trying to make himself feel better after losing a futile debate.

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Originally Posted by Pandonetho

Squid is just trying to make himself feel better after losing a futile debate.

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You mean the debate over opinions?

Clearly.

Yes, this whole opinion business is just your little scapegoat.

Clearly.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Not what I meant at all. Archer has taught you well.

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Wow.

Here I thought it was all in good fun, and then you have to go and say something hurtful like that. I... I just don't know what to think. :(

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Not what I meant at all. Archer has taught you well.

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Um why am I in this debate?

Time heals all wounds. Medevacs do it faster.

i like archer.

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Originally Posted by electricmole

i like archer.

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That's super. Really. Thanks for coming out.

Incredible that nobody commented about this before:

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2. Idle Gate button -- if a Gate isn't doing anything, or a Warp Gate's cooldown is up, on the right hand side an icon appears alerting you to the quantity of idle Gates. Unfortunately I didn't notice if it did the same for other production buildings.

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Seeing how workers get idle buttons, i suppose i shouldn't be surprised to have an idle Gateway button. I wonder if other buildings get this too. It should make Warpgate production a lot easier, it's like having someone saying: "macro, you idiot!!!" when you're playing :D

Wonder if there will be an "Idle PC" button.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Wonder if there will be an "Idle PC" button.

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Not a bad idea.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Not a bad idea.

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... I'm not sure if that was sarcastic, or you actually just admitted you're stupid.

Edit: Nvm. I just remembered Archer actually does support APM sinks, so he wasn't being sarcastic.

K, moving on to the next batch!


1. Is it a good idea for certain units to have no wait period before attacking? Right now I'm thinking specifically of Siege Tanks and Colossi, based on BR4 and imba.Adolf's impressions. Both can pop in and out of their respective shuttles without taking any hits. This seems like a pretty arbitrary and "cheap" way of adding micro to a unit. Is there a reason these two should have it above others? Is there something gained by all units not having the same wait period before attacking?

2. Do we like the Raven being as "self-sufficient" and versatile as it is now? It's become something of an alternative combat flyer... that is, it's good for the same combat situations you'd expect a standard all-purpose fighter to be, it just uses spells to do this instead of a straight-forward attack. Do we like that it's not relegated to the support role... and in fact, doesn't really *have* support type abilities?

3. What should be done about the Immortals, if anything? Are they in trouble because the units they're meant to hard counter appear rarer than intended? Should they gain some more universal functions, or be returned to the Warp Gate, to compensate?

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

2. Do we like the Raven being as "self-sufficient" and versatile as it is now? It's become something of an alternative combat flyer... that is, it's good for the same combat situations you'd expect a standard all-purpose fighter to be, it just uses spells to do this instead of a straight-forward attack. Do we like that it's not relegated to the support role... and in fact, doesn't really *have* support type abilities?

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It's a support unit like the HT except it's better because not only can he cast a powerfull kill everything spell (HSM instead of storm) he can place turrets and mines(? that's what they said. Not really sure what they meant there).

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Is it a good idea for certain units to have no wait period before attacking?

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What makes you say that only certain units have no wait period? The main problem with the ST example is that Stalker attacks aren't hitscan, so there's time for the ST to get pulled in the transport.

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What should be done about the Immortals, if anything?

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Again, a Beta question. Sooner or later, some Protoss player is going to realize that Immortals, cost for cost, do more damage to armored units than anything else the Protoss have. At which point, they'll see a Terran going for Marauders and Thors, plop down 4 Robo's and melt the Terran army.

Hardened shields or no, Immortals still have teeth. And they would have saved the Protoss in BR4.

I consider units like Immortals and Reapers to be "subject to discovery." You don't want to mess with them before people have had the opportunity to play around with the game and create a way to use them.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

What makes you say that only certain units have no wait period? The main problem with the ST example is that Stalker attacks aren't hitscan, so there's time for the ST to get pulled in the transport.

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I assumed this was the case because I thought that's how it worked in SC1 -- specifically, the reason that Goliaths are so much better at mine-hunting than other units. I thought it was because they, as opposed to other units, had a shorter waiting period.

But this could all be wrong. :/

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I consider units like Immortals and Reapers to be "subject to discovery." You don't want to mess with them before people have had the opportunity to play around with the game and create a way to use them.

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Good points. I was kind of fishing here with the Immortal, since... they were actually very useful in BR3 doing the thing that most people would NOT expect them to be any good at. That is, fighting Zerg. So they obviously have potential... although that was during their Warp Gate ways, and I'm still kinda iffy on them being moved. It just doesn't make much gameplay sense -- doesn't feel very intuitive. Like putting Ghosts on the Starport because it's higher tech, or something.


But mostly I was just trying to start up more discussion. :/ So much info and fresh impressions, and most people don't even have anything to say.

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I assumed this was the case because I thought that's how it worked in SC1 -- specifically, the reason that Goliaths are so much better at mine-hunting than other units. I thought it was because they, as opposed to other units, had a shorter waiting period.

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I thought you were specifically talking about Medivac micro-ing units.

It's fine to have units with instant attacks, as long as those units are balanced with that in mind. Non-instant attacks can be dodged, and therefore need to be properly balanced against those that can't be. In SC1, mine dodging was pretty important. In SC2, this is less so, so this particular facet of units won't be as significant.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

K, moving on to the next batch!

2. Do we like the Raven being as "self-sufficient" and versatile as it is now? It's become something of an alternative combat flyer... that is, it's good for the same combat situations you'd expect a standard all-purpose fighter to be, it just uses spells to do this instead of a straight-forward attack. Do we like that it's not relegated to the support role... and in fact, doesn't really *have* support type abilities?

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I have to say I'm disappointed with that, I definitely think casters should have support type abilities... including the occasional massive AoE type damage (which is still support).

(Ie Snipe should be balanced around having a range almost as long a a Siege Tank, so the Ghost is supporting other units)

The Point Defense Drones does seem to provide some "support" function. I'd say replace Either the HK or the Turret with the Targeting Drone.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

1. Is it a good idea for certain units to have no wait period before attacking? Right now I'm thinking specifically of Siege Tanks and Colossi, based on BR4 and imba.Adolf's impressions. Both can pop in and out of their respective shuttles without taking any hits. This seems like a pretty arbitrary and "cheap" way of adding micro to a unit. Is there a reason these two should have it above others? Is there something gained by all units not having the same wait period before attacking?

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I think it adds valuable micro, and all units should have access to it.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

2. Do we like the Raven being as "self-sufficient" and versatile as it is now? It's become something of an alternative combat flyer... that is, it's good for the same combat situations you'd expect a standard all-purpose fighter to be, it just uses spells to do this instead of a straight-forward attack. Do we like that it's not relegated to the support role... and in fact, doesn't really *have* support type abilities?

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Raven should be support. Auto-Turret is good. Other abilities blow.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

3. What should be done about the Immortals, if anything? Are they in trouble because the units they're meant to hard counter appear rarer than intended? Should they gain some more universal functions, or be returned to the Warp Gate, to compensate?

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Immortals ravage anything armored. Let thur be beta.

Wow, there's an awful lot of debate about the merits of having the Thor be carried underneath a transport. Personally I'm ok with this mechanic for two reasons:

1) Realism: You ain't fitting that monstrosity inside a dropship. It's nearly as big as a factory. Having it mechanically attached underneath is a more plausible approach.

2) Balance: The Thor is a powerhouse which excels at air defense. Transporting one of these onto a small island means you've just amped the defense of that island considerably. Seeing that Thor in transit give you a target to prioritize.