Microtransactions: Selling in-game content for real money

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Accept that thats just how it works.


I said this before but since people are missing it i will reexplain. The complaint isnt against microtransactions. The complaint is against microtransactions leading to low quality to price products.

But maybe you think a model that costs one fourth of an expansion pack is the same quality to price.

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They provide a Quality to Price that is sufficient for the people that buy them.

If people want to pay money for Blizzard crap models then that is fine (its not crap to them).
As long as Blizzard turns out non-crap games for a reasonable price, I will buy those.
If Blizzard stops producing non-crap games, I will hold my money ready to buy if someone starts making non-crap RTS games again.

As long as the microtransactions don't extend to Game play (ie Want to get a Hive, that'll be 200 min 150 gas and $ 0.01) then its fine.


But if you are complaining about low Quality to Price.... you really should be looking at our entire society.... 60-80% of the entire industrialized economy is spent buying, borrowing to buy, making, and marketing crap. Save your money so you can buy the non-crap the industrialized world makes.
*There will always be a market for non-crap, its just a lot smaller than the market for crap.


ps remember quality is relative... the price of that crappy model may be the same for you and someone else, but to Them it is higher quality... so it might even be a higher Quality to Price ratio than the game itself. (for them)

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Its not about the price. Its about the price to quality ratio. Just because that is subjective does not mean it doesnt exist.

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And you think that a $100 difference between WC3 and WC3 CE, for a soundtrack CD and an artbook, was warranted?

I did. I bought it.

Plenty of people think Lil'KT is worth $10, because they bought him, too.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

Are we talking about now or when the game first came out?

In Canada WC3 went for $60. TFT went for $50. This is standard.

No matter how much they cost, though, that discrepancy between Product X and Product X CE will always exist. It's absolutely no different from the sort of microtransactions that have been brought up by Blizzard in the context of WoW/SC2.

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PC games are usually all 50$ in U.S, except for MW2 lol

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Do you really believe that? That they are forcing themselves to take your money because its the only way to prevent people from doing it often.

And you cant think of any other way they could possibly discourage people from changing gender?



The real question everyone needs to ask themselves is "If it wasnt for the microtransaction trend would I be able to change gender for free? Would it have just been included in a patch?"

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Without micro transaction, blizzard would have implemented a system of rules and regulations that would have lead to far more abuse and wierdness then a microtransaction. I already addressed this. Putting real life monetary is really the most efficient way of limiting a service to the people serious about it in game, and causes less lorelols because it doesnt have to be even considered canon.

Making money AND a simple system of regulations. Awesome

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Accept that thats just how it works.


I said this before but since people are missing it i will reexplain. The complaint isnt against microtransactions. The complaint is against microtransactions leading to low quality to price products.

But maybe you think a model that costs one fourth of an expansion pack is the same quality to price.

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ZOMG LOW QUALITY TO PRICE PRODUCTS

http://books.simonandschuster.com/Sh.../9780743423182

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The real question everyone needs to ask themselves is "If it wasnt for the microtransaction trend would I be able to change gender for free? Would it have just been included in a patch?"

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Would I be able to change genders at all? There are quite a few MMOs that don't let you do that, after all.

This nonsense goes all the way back to the "horse armor" in one of those RPGs I don't remember. People didn't like it, they didn't buy it, so the developers didn't try it again.

Let the market work these things out. Just because something might have been free in the past doesn't mean it should be free in the future.

Those fancy-schmancy graphics that gamers insist on having in the games they buy cost more money than they did 5 years ago too. Yet the price of PC games is stable: $50 (which itself is worth less than it was 5 years ago, thanks to inflation). If game developers get yelled at for raising the base price of their games, then their only option is to find alternate means of getting money.

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Originally Posted by newcomplex

ZOMG LOW QUALITY TO PRICE PRODUCTS

http://books.simonandschuster.com/Sh.../9780743423182

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lol point in case old blue.

Goddamn blizzard should be giving us this shit for free

fuck

Well thats the crux. Microtransactions allow Blizzard to offer us content not valid for conventional channels aka expansions. Unfortunately they would also allow them to charge us for stuff that SHOULD be free. It´s basically the DLC issue for the PC.
Blizzard is thankfully conscious about the issue, after official (the dark portal) and inofficial (the nonblizzard SC "expansions") low quality 3rd party content they got the message.

What would be big enough to charge for but to small for a expansion or even spin-off?

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Unfortunately they would also allow them to charge us for stuff that SHOULD be free.It´s basically the DLC issue for the PC.

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Who says that it "SHOULD" be free?

Everyone who isn't making a profit off the game?

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Everyone who isn't making a profit off the game?

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Isn't that what everyone who buys things whats? For all the stuff they buy to be free?

We live in a captialism. That means, among other things, that you pay people for stuff. Like videogames. If you don't like the price that someone offers for the stuff, you don't give them money.

Like Penny Arcade said on this issue: the PC is the most open platform on the planet. If you don't like the price on what someone's offering, someone else will be along to fill your needs presently.

Point of view of the people against paying for stuff: Shit, I'm too cheap to pay for this shit, and even though I am TOTALLY FREE NOT TO PAY FOR IT I don't want anyone else buying it, because if I can't have it, neither should they.

This is why I'm a socialist.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

This is why I'm a socialist.

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So we Shouldn't be free to Not pay for it, instead we would have to pay for it whether we want to or not.

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Originally Posted by Krikkitone

So we Shouldn't be free to Not pay for it, instead we would have to pay for it whether we want to or not.

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That is not even remotely what I said.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

That is not even remotely what I said.

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I'm presuming by socialist you meant the regulation of economy type.

You could have meant the social welfare type where you pay for it, not only whether or not you want it, but whether or not you are the one that gets it.

But I thought that would be presuming too much.

Or were you focusing on the idea that we shouldn't have the option to pay for it because it wouldn't exist. (because there is no profit in it)

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Originally Posted by Krikkitone

I'm presuming by socialist you meant the regulation of economy type.

You could have meant the social welfare type where you pay for it, not only whether or not you want it, but whether or not you are the one that gets it.

But I thought that would be presuming too much.

Or were you focusing on the idea that we shouldn't have the option to pay for it because it wouldn't exist. (because there is no profit in it)

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That people would make video games for entertainment, not money.
That food would be grown, clothes tailored, and houses built for the greater good from a sense of unity, not profit.
That anyone could truly do anything they wanted for free and for personal and society fulfillment.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

That people would make video games for entertainment, not money.
That food would be grown, clothes tailored, and houses built for the greater good from a sense of unity, not profit.
That anyone could truly do anything they wanted for free and for personal and society fulfillment.

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So a communist*....sorry, none of those has ever made it out of the dictatorship phase, maybe with better genetic engineering, educational technigues, marketing methods, political propaganda, and planned breeding someone will be able to successfully change human nature so that people will suffer scarcity for the general good without trying to cheat the system.

And then real humans like you and me will exploit them. (not you and me specifically but humans like you and me).

PS video games Are made for entertainment not profit, just not by Blizzard
There are food banks, good will clothing donations... Habitat for Humanity. All these things take place.

The problem with the view is this

That anyone could truly do anything they wanted for free and for personal and society fulfillment

So which is it....
anything you want for free (what I want)
OR
society fullfillment (what someone else wants)


Basically you either have to

Give humans an unlimited ability to detect cheating ie unblockable mind reading abilities

Take away our ability to cheat (brain programming)

Eliminate scarcity by eliminating our desires

Eliminate scarcity by altering the fundamental nature of the universe so that all our wishes come true


*just about everyone is a communist in the sense of desiring some type of society similar to Marx's end point vision, the problem is that vision is Utopian, in all its senses.

And with that Archer's thread has been successfully derailed (sorry)

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Originally Posted by Krikkitone

And with that Archer's thread has been successfully derailed (sorry)

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I actually kinda like where this is going....

I am a Socialist. Not a Communist. They are completely different things, and your ignorance is typical and saddens me.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

I am a Socialist. Not a Communist. They are completely different things, and your ignorance is typical and saddens me.

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Everyone should do things for the common good rather than any benefit they get?

That's Marx's ideal. I'm not assuming you agree with his description of the best way to get there, as that was pretty discredited by all the people that tried. (ie I'm not assuming you are a Marxist/Leninist/Stalinist/Maoist, that you believe in central planning, worker's revolution, etc.)... only that you think people should be doing things for 'the common good' because of a spirit of 'unity'.

OK, let me put it this way.

George wants a video game
George can't make video games
Jenny can

How does George get Jenny to make a video game?

There are a number of factors that can lead to Jenny making a video game for George

1. Jenny likes George and wants him to be happy

2. Jenny likes making video games

3. George, or some of his friends, will beat Jenny up if she doesn't make a video game

4. Other people won't do nice things for Jenny if she doesn't do this for George (and they will do noce things for her if she does)


I'd say those are the four basic reasons
# 3 is definitely a bad one so we'll leave that off... but it gets use quite a lot.

#1 would be nice, but not everyone is going to be liked in that unconditional way... this is a Utopian solution

#2 is also nice, but maybe more people want video games than Jenny wants to make them for... or maybe Jenny likes making video games that other people don't like

#1-3 also don't provide any benefit to Jenny besides
enjoying her work, not getting beat up, and making people happy

Now what if Jenny wants a car.. she can rely on the same strategy but
#1 what if people don't like her that much
#2 what if there aren't enough people who like building cars
#3 If she was strong enough to beat people up George wouldn't have been able to threaten her in the first place

That is why #4 is the best method....
if you do things for George, Other people will do a wide variety of stuff for you

Now there are a number of ways to do this, in a small enough community you can do it through a shared understanding... a unity, we'll all be there for each other. People developed in these societies....

And they learned how cheat the system (and how to catch cheaters)

People learned how to slack off, or get Lots of nice things without doing nice things for others.

Because they got caught in small societies it didn't get out of hand.

In bigger societies its a lot harder to tell if someone is slacking, or getting too many nice things, so the way to do it is to either
have some way of keeping track of how many nice things a person has done.
or
the only way you get a nice thing from someone is doing a nice thing for them ... ie Jenny better hope George can build a car

barter is easier when you are just randomly thrown together but terribly inefficient... so eventually it developed into money

money essentially became a way to do that first option... you give people money when they do something for you, and they can give that money to other people to get them to do something nice to them.

Now there is still a lot of people that enjoy making (certain) other people happy, and a lot of people that enjoy (some) of their work, and a lot of beating up (or throwing in jail or threateningto do so) that happens.

but by and large ists the best possible system unless you can

1. Stop Cheating
2. Stop people wanting things
3. Make sure everyone likes making other people happy more than themselves
4. Make everything that people want/need enjoyable to make in the way and amount people want (compared to anything else people could do)

#1-3 there is some hope if you literally rewire human brains on a very significant level
#4 is probably prohibited by the laws of the universe (as long as people keep wanting things)


Now Money does not obviously solve the problem of people cheating... but they have to cheat with the money (things like contracts help too, and those work better with money)
It doesn't solve the beating up problem, but it provides an alternative.

It doesn't make everyone like each other, but so far nothing else has either.

Your ideal society is economically the same as Marx's ideal society.... relying on everyone liking each other/common good/unity to get things done. That is why I said it was Communist. (again no intent to compare you to the Soviets, etc etc.)

Socialist implies much more of a regimented society with safety nets (which is why I initially thought you meant people wouldn't be able not to pay, or wouldn't be able to pay, or would pay for someone else)

You so don't get it man. Everyone should do everything for the common good. Period.

Whatever, this isn't the place for this discussion. Just go watch more Star Trek.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

You so don't get it man. Everyone should do everything for the common good. Period.

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And because we are all human, I doubt that is ever going to happen.

Darn natural selection and its conflicting agendas.

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Originally Posted by Shadow Archon

And because we are all human, I doubt that is ever going to happen.

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With that attitude, yes.

Its your fault we don't live like they do Star Trek.

I hope your mother is proud of you.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Who says that it "SHOULD" be free?

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Because its blizzard.

I can buy IW ward games if I wanted to be charged ten dollars for a one hour bonus mission.

The reason why blizzard is so awesome is because they give us stuff for free. Thats a huge fanservice for us, and we totally thank them for it. But its not a total charity because now they have my devotion to pretty much buy any product they come out with with pre-orders, and CE the day it comes out. This is coming from the guy who pirates almost all his games.

I hope they don't loose this devotion and cheese out by releasing free bonus missions like they have for every single other RTS they have created with pay-for play DLC's.

I have nothing against video game companies being...companies. But to me, blizzard's niche on the market is making a gaming studio that will always give me insane quality games with amazing replay value for a low low price of 50$. That's a pretty fucking broad niche. It's also why they nearly doubled activisions earnings.
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and totally OT but

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

That people would make video games for entertainment, not money.
That food would be grown, clothes tailored, and houses built for the greater good from a sense of unity, not profit.
That anyone could truly do anything they wanted for free and for personal and society fulfillment.

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My desire in society is to be better then others, whether through money, looks, popularity, charm, family, faith, friends, connections, enslavement, iccup rating or genocide.

what now squid D:

I am not speaking just for myself, but also for every other human being on this planet.

I shouldn't have to explain this to a guy who goes ramboing into threads about Christianity going UR GOD IS A LIE D:
I am disappoint.

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Originally Posted by newcomplex

My desire in society is to be better then others, whether through money, looks, popularity, charm, family, faith, friends, connections, enslavement, iccup rating or genocide.

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You're crazy but in any case your desire is fufiled because you can always be better in at least one of those category when comparing yourself to someone else. So what now?

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The reason why blizzard is so awesome is because they give us stuff for free. Thats a huge fanservice for us, and we totally thank them for it. But its not a total charity because now they have my devotion to pretty much buy any product they come out with with pre-orders, and CE the day it comes out.

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See, I still don't see where you answered my question: "Who says that it SHOULD be free?" Blizzard once thought these things should be free, but they are free to change their minds in the future. And the only recourse you have is to stop giving them money.

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for a low low price of 50$. That's a pretty fucking broad niche. It's also why they nearly doubled activisions earnings.

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Um, the game that did that didn't cost $50. It costs $14.95 per month. So I don't see how you draw that conclusion.

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This is coming from the guy who pirates almost all his games.

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If you don't want to pay for games, don't play them. You don't get to steal them just because you feel like they're overpriced.

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My desire in society is to be better then others, whether through money, looks, popularity, charm, family, faith, friends, connections, enslavement, iccup rating or genocide.

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Which is apparently why you think stealing games is just fine.

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I am not speaking just for myself, but also for every other human being on this planet.

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People are better than you think they are. Despite so many forces in society that tells us to be selfish jerks, most people remain as they were born: kind and compassionate.

High-quality-to-price is what made Blizzard. No other video game company places such an emphasis on long term over short term profit.

I thought it was making great games that made Blizzard. You know, the same thing that made Valve, Konami, Nintendo, Bioware, and a dozen other great game developers. All of them provide high quality to price.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Its your fault we don't live like they do Star Trek.

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On Star Trek, writers dictate every thought and desire of every character as well as every event that happens in the universe. Also, on Star Trek the people don't live because they are never really real. (I really prefer existence)

For the OP

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Everyone should do everything for the common good. Period

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And that is what Blizzard does with microtransactions, because the common good Includes the good of Blizzard's employees and shareholders, they allow other people to help them contribute to the common good. Because of microtransactions, You can help a Blizzard employee enjoy a latte. That is a contribution to the common good.

So Paying Microtransactions=Common Good.
UNLESS
The microtransactions are for something that you don't want and that noone that you know wants, so you can contribute to the common good by not buying it for yourself or anyone else who doesn't want it and let Blizzard know in that way that they aren't serving your portion of the common good.... providing that information is a common good. (and then you get to get Yourself a gallon of gas with the money you save which is part of the common good)

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

I thought it was making great games that made Blizzard. You know, the same thing that made Valve, Konami, Nintendo, Bioware, and a dozen other great game developers. All of them provide high quality to price.

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Exactly. Long term profit over short term.

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Originally Posted by Krikkitone

On Star Trek, writers dictate every thought and desire of every character as well as every event that happens in the universe. Also, on Star Trek the people don't live because they are never really real. (I really prefer existence)

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Non-sequitur much?

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

With that attitude, yes.

Its your fault we don't live like they do Star Trek.

I hope your mother is proud of you.

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Your blaming me because Im human?

Humans are greedy and selfish. We will never have a society like that. Its the one true flaw of Socialism. If it worked as it does paper, I probably would be for it, but it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Shadow Archon

Your blaming me because Im human?

Humans are greedy and selfish. We will never have a society like that. Its the one true flaw of Socialism. If it worked as it does paper, I probably would be for it, but it doesn't.

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Humans are only greedy and selfish because we let them be.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Humans are only greedy and selfish because we let them be.

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So, you are saying that only nature of money makes people selfish and greedy?

Is that what you are implying? I believe as long as there is something one man has and the other doesn't, there will be greed. A wife, a position of government, a job, a possession of some type, if other people's lives can all be the factors that create greed. In a sense, we will never get rid of it.

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Originally Posted by Shadow Archon

So, you are saying that only nature of money makes people selfish and greedy?

Is that what you are implying? I believe as long as there is something one man has and the other doesn't, there will be greed. A wife, a position of government, a job, a possession of some type, if other people's lives can all be the factors that create greed. In a sense, we will never get rid of it.

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It won't go away. But there needs to be better control of it.

Anyway I'm not in the mood for this discussion. Everyone thinks I'm crazy enough already.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

It won't go away. But there needs to be better control of it.

Anyway I'm not in the mood for this discussion. Everyone thinks I'm crazy enough already.

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No, I'm completely behind every thing you've said in this thread.

I just don't see why this thread is still allowed to be here, instead of Off-Topic, where I said it should be back on page 1!

Moved to off-topic.

As for the OP, I would rather have the option than not have the option, as long as it doesn't mess with the core experience of the game and remains purely an option, not something that you're forced into buying.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

See, I still don't see where you answered my question: "Who says that it SHOULD be free?" Blizzard once thought these things should be free, but they are free to change their minds in the future. And the only recourse you have is to stop giving them money.

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Obviously, a pet will not make me not buy SC2. That would be ludicrous. It's not "dont implement micro transactions or I'll pirate/not play at all your games", it just goes down to the kind of service I receive for my 100+ purchase of WoF ce edition. If it lives up to the kind of continual quality updates and free stuff I have recieved from diablo, starcraft, warcraft, and to some extent, wow (though i do have to pay 15$ a month for that).

I'm just against micro transactions, because to me, it seems like a pathway that would prevent the kind of service I expect from blizzard.

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Um, the game that did that didn't cost $50. It costs $14.95 per month. So I don't see how you draw that conclusion.

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Right. Because of the operating costs. If I thought they were unjustified, I'd play on a private server. But obviously the cost is necessary, because private servers, which are free, are also shit.

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If you don't want to pay for games, don't play them. You don't get to steal them just because you feel like they're overpriced.

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Of course not. First of all, if your going to equate it to another crime, equate it to counterfeiting. Your diminishing a products value by making unauthorized copies. You are not stealing, because stealing requires a loss of goods on their end. Of course, that is obviously false in piracy.

That being said, counterfeiting is still illegal, and a crime. So is piracy. Maybe some ethical conscience part of my brain is defunct, but I simply do not care. This isn't me justifying piracy, which is in the end, is just illegal, and I am just a criminal when it comes to pirating games, this is me not caring because their are very little social ramifications on it. My chances of being caught are non-existent. The only reason why I would actually buy a game is to show support for the company. If a company is doing something highly admirable, I will not pirate the game. As to provide support to continue doing what they do.

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Which is apparently why you think stealing games is just fine.

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Its a crime, I just don't care. Because I simply do not care to show my support for companies like IW-ward, and my chances of being caught for the crime is completely abysmal (even if they were to somehow choose to scapegoat me, which is one in a million, I live in a dorm so any case would be moot)

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People are better than you think they are. Despite so many forces in society that tells us to be selfish jerks, most people remain as they were born: kind and compassionate.

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You know what they say about dogs? That every dog is just two meals away from becoming a wolf. Similar idea.

second, my idea isn't that all people are selfish. It is that humans are physically incapable of enjoying 90% of the things we enjoy without relative comparison to another human being.

btw squid 10/10. even I bit.