Re: Jim going good or bad?
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Originally Posted by
Norfindel
Didn't Raynor said to Mengsk he was crazy to think about using the Psi Emitter on Tarsonis?
The first time Mengsk suggested it is back in The Trump Card, and only Kerrigan voices her displeasure with the idea, not Raynor. Then like three missions later Raynor seems to have a problem with it...
Except going up against the Protoss, and specifically, having KERRIGAN go up against the Protoss, seem to have more effect on him.
And he still doesn't leave.
So... did he have some moral reservations? Obviously, otherwise he'd be a psycho. But what changed his mind about everything was Kerrigan; she's the one who told him to stick with it, and he did -- for her, not for "the greater good." Then she died and he left. Not because the Confederates had been betrayed, but because Kerrigan had been betrayed.
If you've ever seen Lost, it's a very Jack-like approach to perceiving the world. For him the entire world revolves around the people he knows and cares about. Everyone else is peripheral. (so in a sense it's the most common default human perspective on things)
Re: Jim going good or bad?
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Originally Posted by
pure.Wasted
The first time Mengsk suggested it is back in The Trump Card, and only Kerrigan voices her displeasure with the idea, not Raynor. Then like three missions later Raynor seems to have a problem with it...
Except going up against the Protoss, and specifically, having KERRIGAN go up against the Protoss, seem to have more effect on him.
And he still doesn't leave.
So... did he have some moral reservations? Obviously, otherwise he'd be a psycho. But what changed his mind about everything was Kerrigan; she's the one who told him to stick with it, and he did -- for her, not for "the greater good." Then she died and he left. Not because the Confederates had been betrayed, but because Kerrigan had been betrayed.
If you've ever seen Lost, it's a very Jack-like approach to perceiving the world. For him the entire world revolves around the people he knows and cares about. Everyone else is peripheral. (so in a sense it's the most common default human perspective on things)
Well, Raynor joined the Sons of Korhal before knowing about Kerrigan. Mengsk saved his ass, and his people, while the Confederacy left the planet to die (actually, they caused the planet to die). Also, he had nowhere to go.
At the Tarsonis assault, it's Duke the one that plants the emmiter, the others didn't knew anything until that point. It's true that Kerrigan speaks first, but that's natural, as she was supposed to be very close to Mengsk, and still she didn't knew anything. Raynor supported the complaint.
Obviously, Raynor feels something about Kerrigan, but i doubt he's fighting the Zerg and Mengsk only for vengeance. Also, if that's all that drives him, he wouldn't bother to save any of the colonies.
Re: Jim going good or bad?
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Originally Posted by
Norfindel
Obviously, Raynor feels something about Kerrigan, but i doubt he's fighting the Zerg and Mengsk only for vengeance. Also, if that's all that drives him, he wouldn't bother to save any of the colonies.
I'm not sure why you insist that Raynor must be such a simple character that EITHER he is driven by good will OR he is driven by vengeance. He can be driven by BOTH.
Most people are complicated enough that there is no single thing that motivates them to do everything they do. Yes, Raynor is a decent man, and he always, always, always means well. But he's not the brightest guy, and he doesn't tend to think things through very well. That means he's done some things he shouldn't have, or done some things he should have done for the wrong reasons.
He stayed with Mengsk as long as he did not out of loyalty, not out of hatred for the Confederacy, but because every time his faith in Mengsk was slipping, Kerrigan would tell him, "It's OK, Jim, he knows what he's doing. Trust him." And he did. For her.
That's not to say that every single decision Raynor's ever made in his life revolves around Kerrigan and Mengsk and his relationship to both, but ignoring this factor is overlooking a very dominant personality trait of Raynor's.
Re: Jim going good or bad?
According to this long article, Kerrigan dominates Raynor's every thought.
Maybe people just focus on the sex? (Does anyone recall the John McCain sex scandal? Probably not. A newspaper accused McCain of influence peddling and other generic political misdeeds, and that stuff was researched, maybe even true. They also accused him of sleeping with a lobbyist, and those allegations were poorly supported. People focused on the sex scandal like a laser, and ignored the other much more serious and possibly true stuff. The end result is McCain avoided the entire series of scandals and the newspaper came off looking bad.)
In any event, if anyone has read the Homecoming short story, you'll learn more about Raynor's motivations. He doesn't (just) attack the Dominion because of what Mengsk did to Kerrigan.
Re: Jim going good or bad?
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Originally Posted by
Kimera757
In any event, if anyone has read the Homecoming short story, you'll learn more about Raynor's motivations. He doesn't (just) attack the Dominion because of what Mengsk did to Kerrigan.
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Re: Jim going good or bad?
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Originally Posted by
pure.Wasted
Are you discussing or advertising? :D
Discussion.
Mostly :D
Re: Jim going good or bad?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pure.Wasted
I'm not sure why you insist that Raynor must be such a simple character that EITHER he is driven by good will OR he is driven by vengeance. He can be driven by BOTH.
Most people are complicated enough that there is no single thing that motivates them to do everything they do. Yes, Raynor is a decent man, and he always, always, always means well. But he's not the brightest guy, and he doesn't tend to think things through very well. That means he's done some things he shouldn't have, or done some things he should have done for the wrong reasons.
He stayed with Mengsk as long as he did not out of loyalty, not out of hatred for the Confederacy, but because every time his faith in Mengsk was slipping, Kerrigan would tell him, "It's OK, Jim, he knows what he's doing. Trust him." And he did. For her.
That's not to say that every single decision Raynor's ever made in his life revolves around Kerrigan and Mengsk and his relationship to both, but ignoring this factor is overlooking a very dominant personality trait of Raynor's.
Well, seems like we agree about most stuff.
However, lossing your faith in someone is something that happends gradually, and Raynor's "in-construction" love for Kerrigan wasn't the only factor, and not maybe even the greatest factor. He trusted Mengsk until the use of Psi Emitters in Tarsonis, when doubt assaulted his mind. Then, when they return to orbit, the Protoss fleet arrived, and Mengsk ordered Kerrigan to go against them without backup.
At this point, Raynor tries to convince both Mengsk (openly against him, now), and Kerrigan, who still trusts Mengsk. She had been a lot of time under Mengsk orders than Raynor, so that's another reason to trust her judgement.
Obviously, after Mengsk blatantly abandons Kerrigan to die at the hands of the Zerg, Raynor goes away. Not only he feeled something about Kerrigan, but obviously, he was much more expendable than her, and he's not the only one abandoning Mengsk at this point.
For this reasons, i think that Raynor's faith in Mengsk didn't depend only about Kerrigan, but also in a quick succesion of obvious treacherous decisions:
- Hiding the fact that Psi Emitters were going to be used on Tarsonis to high-rank personnel.
- Sending Kerrigan with scarce forces against the Protoss in a Zerg-infested planet.
- Leaving her to die, whitout any kind of rescue attempt.
Until the assault on Tarsonis, Mengsk decisions were justifiable, then they suffer a very sharp decline on credibility.
Of course, Mengsk had what he wanted at that point, and it was time to clean his forces from people that could be a problem in the future.
He planed the replacement of Kerrigan at the very point he offered Duke a higher rank than her. She was Mengsk's second-in-command up to that point.
It can be taken as if Raynor's love for Kerrigan was the only trigger, but it think it's a little more complex than that.
Re: Jim going good or bad?
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And the Tarsonian Confederacy wasn't?
The difference is the difference: Mengsk was actually preparing for a transfer of power. That little speech at the end of the first campaign was simply the end-point of his schemes to take what was left of the Confederacy and unite it behind him. That can't be done spur-of-the-moment. You have to work for it. Prepare for it. Months and possibly years in advance.
Raynor doesn't have plans. All he wants is to kill Mengsk. He isn't thinking about or preparing for what happens next. He doesn't care. He just wants his petty vengeance.
Say what you will about Mengsk, but at least he made sure that things would return to some relative normalcy when he took his vengeance. Sure, not for Tarsonis, but for everyone else.
What exactly is going to happen if Raynor gets what he wants? Is he, the leader of a small rebel faction, going to be elected supreme ruler of this chunk of Terran space? No. There's going to be civil war.
Re: Jim going good or bad?
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Originally Posted by
Nicol Bolas
What exactly is going to happen if Raynor gets what he wants? Is he, the leader of a small rebel faction, going to be elected supreme ruler of this chunk of Terran space? No. There's going to be civil war.
As I stated in an earlier post, I find it rather unlikely that the Dominion would simply collapse and revert into civil war with the death of Emperor Mengsk, any more than the U.S gov collapsed with the assasination of Kennedy or the Roman Empire collapsed with the assasination of Julius Caesar. It just doesn't seem likely that the Dominion's position is so precarious that Mengsk's charisma and pragmatism is the only thing keeping it all together.
Not saying that there WOULDN'T be any serious ramifications but nothing that would result in an all out coup d'etat. Somebody would simply replace replace him.
Re: Jim going good or bad?
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Originally Posted by
phazonjunkie
As I stated in an earlier post, I find it rather unlikely that the Dominion would simply collapse and revert into civil war with the death of Emperor Mengsk, any more than the U.S gov collapsed with the assasination of Kennedy or the Roman Empire collapsed with the assasination of Julius Caesar. It just doesn't seem likely that the Dominion's position is so precarious that Mengsk's charisma and pragmatism is the only thing keeping it all together.
Not saying that there WOULDN'T be any serious ramifications but nothing that would result in an all out coup d'etat. Somebody would simply replace replace him.
The difference between the USA in 1964 and the Terran Dominion in 2505 is that the Dominion is a hereditary monarchy... and the USA wasn't. When Mengsk dies, his 25-year old son assumes TOTAL control of EVERYTHING. Nobody gets a say in any of it. If they had a working relationship with Mengsk, Sr., well, they just have to start all over again. If everything was lining up and they were set for life, but suddenly Mengsk Jr. doesn't agree for some reason or another, tough luck.
How many senior members of Mengsk's cabinet do you think would be willing to take this lying down?
