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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ArcherofAiur
I dont keep bringing up queues. Im bringing up Dustins answer to a question about manual labor.
Except its NOT a quote about ALL manual labor. Just unit production labor. Once again you show your inability (or choice not) to grasp the subtleties of specific vs general.
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ArcherofAiur
A) I posted the entirety of that part in the Macro thread.
Oh, well, then that would make just perfect sense if this was the Macro thread and those reading this thread were the exact same people reading the other thread.
Two polls in a row now, you've made, that've been completely misleading and misinforming to those that weren't following the discussion on the Macro thread.
I'm sorry that the rest of the forum had to become unwitting guinea pigs for your experiment in proving here a point you were trying to make in the Macro thread. That you even said the word "bias" in your attempted defense of your last poll is a complete joke.
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
your link doesnt even work -_-
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
The link didnt work because I copy and pasted it. Here is the original translation
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...topic_id=92932
and I have two confirmations that its correct.
Its hilarious how afraid you guys are of answering the question. Youd rather try and undermine just about every word in the thing lol
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ArcherofAiur
And, as usual, its IRRELEVANT.
Stop failing so hard. My funnybone can't take it.
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
There's a poster on the official forum, who posted a link to a youtube video where Dustin Browder was speaking to an Italian computer game news company.
He allegedly told them beta would be in February 2010, and said poster (who is Italian and apparently understands it very well) wanted people to pay attention to it.
Problem was, it was a dubbed video. Someone who spoke Italian and English translated Browder's words and dubbed them over the original, which meant we weren't hearing Browder's words coming out of his own mouth. Now frankly I'm sure if I heard the word "February" in Italian I'd still recognize it (I took Latin classes!) but the video had a kind of sleazy feeling, since you couldn't really confirm what was said.
More on-topic, could the really confusing quote be moved from the OP and put elsewhere in the thread? In fact, even it were 100% unadulterated genuine, that's still "leading" the poll respondents. The poll should just ask "Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?" period.
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
Quote:
In fact, even it were 100% unadulterated genuine, that's still "leading" the poll respondents.
Oh, silly Kimera. Thinking that ArcherofAiur actually is interested in what the poll says. If it goes his way, he'll claim it as evidence for something. If it doesn't, he'll say it's "biased" or some other dismissive nonsense.
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
What exactly do you want people to say about this, do you want to know what people think, or do you want people to speculate about what Dustin wants. Because I can think of no other reason you would post stuff like his interview along with this question if you didn't want to just talk about what Dustin wants.
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
I would like it if people talked about whether starcraft 2 should be a game where you have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements. But instead were getting just about every excuse under the sun for how what Dustin said wasnt really what Dustin said.
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ArcherofAiur
I would like it if people talked about whether starcraft 2 should be a game where you have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements.
Short discussion, man.
Unanimous, "no."
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
People might do that if you remove the confusing quote.
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ArcherofAiur
I would like it if people talked about whether starcraft 2 should be a game where you have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements. But instead were getting just about every excuse under the sun for how what Dustin said wasnt really what Dustin said.
I'm pretty sure it's obvious, the answer is no, the game works great if not in the words of DS: "9.5 balanced" and I would have to agree.
You still have to make a conscious effort to making units and you still have to hot key and make sure units are always pumping, it's even more pressing when you are working with something like warp-in. Even though it does give a 10 second window it can be a lot more punishing to someone while a micro battle is going on, than to someone who can Q up 2-3 units and not have to worry about it.
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
What the hell is this thread?
You DO have to go back to your base to produce reinforcements, if you have a hotkey to a building thats in your base you can use that to produce units without dragging your mouse across the screen. But the building is still in your base and your still using commands to build units in your base so in a sense your still "having to go back to ure base".
The same could be said for supply depots, if you want to continue to make units your going to have to go back to your base to make a suppy depot.
But wait!
What if you bring a scv with you on your push then your not going back to your base OMgomgomgomgmo!
or
What if you tell one scv to build like 15 depots in a row because you have excess money, which makes going back to your base not required for awhile.
Who cares, it doesn't matter what matters is he wants you to have take some attention away from your battle to create units, and to do other things which sometimes require you to switch screens or at least use hotkeys assigned to things. Even with the best hotkey setups in the world, your still going to need to go back to make tech buildings and additional production buildings pretty often.
Its not like you don't know how the game functions already what is the point of asking something like this?
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Islandsnake
What the hell is this thread?
You DO have to go back to your base to produce reinforcements, if you have a hotkey to a building thats in your base you can use that to produce units without dragging your mouse across the screen. But the building is still in your base and your still using commands to build units in your base so in a sense your still "having to go back to ure base".
The same could be said for supply depots, if you want to continue to make units your going to have to go back to your base to make a suppy depot.
But wait!
What if you bring a scv with you on your push then your not going back to your base OMgomgomgomgmo!
or
What if you tell one scv to build like 15 depots in a row because you have excess money, which makes going back to your base not required for awhile.
Who cares, it doesn't matter what matters is he wants you to have take some attention away from your battle to create units, and to do other things which sometimes require you to switch screens or at least use hotkeys assigned to things.
Its not like you don't know how the game functions already what is the point of asking something like this?
Yeah I was pretty sure that's the jist of what Dustin was trying to say, and I think that's how it is and should be.
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
supersonic
Yeah I was pretty sure that's the jist of what Dustin was trying to say, and I think that's how it is and should be.
You guys will try anything to change his words around. Please reread the interview and tell me how his answer about manual labor over automation is really talking about making units using hotkeys of buildings "in your base". Oh and anyone saying he was talking just about queues obviously didnt even read the whole article.
Quote:
Q: We are under the impression that there is more Micro in Sc2 than in part one. That is: We have to click more.
A: That's right, there is a lot of Micromanagement at the time being. If it stays that way depends ultimately on the beta test. Besides this, we have occupied ourselves extensively with Micro and Macromanagement - what the player must manage on a small scale, and what he can manage on a large scale - in the past months. Right now you have to do a lot by hand. For example, you trigger the Stalker's blink. Or you burrow and unburrow Roaches. Or you impede ground troups with the Disruptor's force field. This leads to a lot of Micromanagement, more than in SC1. Therefore, Sc2 plays out in a very complex way, especially towards the end of a match. But Macro should still stay important. Whoever does not cherish Micro can still earn victories. Especially by focussing on establishing a strong economy and then overunning your foe with a superior army.
Q: Apropos huge armies. In comparison to its predecessor, you are allowed to select many more units in Sc2. And that's great. But still, some game concepts seem antiquated, for example the 3D camera that does not zoom out very far. Or the production queue that can only hold five units. Why did you change unit selection but kept the other elements the same?
A: There is a quite obvious reason for the camera position. I am not a big fan of zooming out very far from battles. In other games, this might work out, but not in Starcraft. There is so much Micro that the battles would look confusing if you could zoom out further. Also the atmosphere would get lost - the units would transform into tiny symbols and you couldn't recognise anymore, how diligently they are designed. The feeling of fighting for a distinctive faction would get lost - and just in Starcraft, with its three characteristic races! Zoomed out very far, those battles would degenerate to a feud of ants. This might be appropriate for games like Supreme Commander, which are fully geared towards the zoom function, that have huge maps on which the units traverse very long distances. But Starcraft works differently: It happens faster, matches often last only half an hour. A zoom function simply wouldn't fit in.
Q: And what about production queues?
A: There you see that Sc2 is orientated towards esports. We have to keep a fragile balance: The game should offer comfortable usage, but it should not play by itself, else the challenge would evaporate. Let's see what the Beta testers say about it.
Q: So manual labor instead of automation?
A: Exactly. There is a nice story about this. Back then, I was working on addons to Mechwarrior 2. That's how I know that there was still automatic targetting in an early version: You only had to decide, which weapons to fire in what order, the Computer would guide them to the target. The only thing you had to watch out for was not to overheat. That might even have been interesting, but just for few players. The majority wanted action, and they got it in the end. The same applies to Starcraft: We want the players to go back to their base in order to produce reinforcements. We want them to really take care instead of relying on an automatic process.
Q: That leads us back to the balance between Micro and Macro. Since Blizzcon 2008, you have changed the economy system again. Back then there were already two vespene geysers in each base, but they would shut down for a short time after having collected a certain amount of gas. Therefore you would have to check the status of your source of income frequently, forcing a large amount of Micromanagement. Why this change?
A: Oh dear, we are thinking about how to modify the geysers since forever. We want you to have to manage your economy more. And the geysers would be a perfect start point, since they were quite unspectacular in the past: You sent three workers there, and that's it. So we decided to change the mechanic, which hasn't succeeded thus far. It was extremely hard to balance the new system. Had we decided to regulate the gas supply necessarily by hand, to collect the regular amount of resources, we would have severerly disadvantaged the newer players, since they couldn't afford expensive units like Battle Cruisers and Templar. But just these units have the most appeal to casual players. Therefore, we would have to modify the mechanic in that way, that you still earn enough gas if you leave the geysers to themselves. But then, Micro experts would collect by far more resources and would produce only very mighty units like Carriers and Archons. That would also be unfair. In addition, the constant geyser-checking would become annoying very quickly. We want to reward the players, not annoy them.
Q: Sounds reasonable. I suppose that's why you have introduced the three new special units and buildings: The Queen of Zerg, the Protoss Dark Pylon, and the Satellite Center of Terran. Each of these new kids has defensive abilities that also affect resource collection.
A: True, the new talents are supposed to breath life into the economic system, for example by giving the players additional resources.
Q: How?
A: In SC1, collecting resources was almost identical for every race. There were small differences, such as Protoss workers being able to resume collecting right after warping in a building. Now we are deepening these differences. Terran can order the MULE-robot thanks to their Satellite Control center, to earn Crystals faster. The Queen offers a new method of production to Zerg. In the predecessor, they had to construct additional Hatcheries to mass-produce. Now they can build Queen alternatively to increase their number of larvae, and thus need less Hatcheries. However, the Queen's ability to spawn larvae requires a lot of Micro. The player therefore has to decide, whether to spend time on this or rather to construct additional Hatcheries. The races therefore do not only play differently, they also have more strategical options.
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
What are you trying to say?
Do you think he wants you to make you go back to your base to make units?
Because you DON'T that's the fact.
Things that may make you "switch" screens ( because going back to your base is relative to where your buildings are anyway)
- Resetting rally points somtimes require you to switch screens, unless you want to rally them into the battle
- Building more Production buildings ( more rax,factorys) which in a sense lets you have more reinforcements
- Building supply depots and using your macro mechanics in a sense allows you to produce more units
-Using certain mechanics like warp in/ or changing addons
Are you suggesting hes going to take away the ability to make units with hotkeys?
I think your reading to much into what he said.
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
Hmmmm what could he possibly mean when he says they want players to come back to the base to produce reinforcements....
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ArcherofAiur
Hmmmm what could he possibly mean when he says they want players to come back to the base to produce reinforcements....
This is your thread why don't you actually stand on your points and defend what your trying to say instead of behind cryptic and side sweeping around points.
The macro mechanics?
Obviously he wants you to have to go back to your base to get more income.
To maximize your income they want you to go back to your base. Becasue players of higher levels will be very good at using the new UI and hot keys to avoid going back or switching screens.
Duh? Didnt we have a 1000000 page thread about this already?
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
WOW this thread cracks me up.
I visit this site all the time, but never post. I just registered to point out that Archer is obviously f**king with all of you. Either that, or he's completely batsh*t retarded.
Call a spade a spade guys. Don't let some troll get you all worked up.
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
coreankim
WOW this thread cracks me up.
I visit this site all the time, but never post. I just registered to point out that Archer is obviously f**king with all of you. Either that, or he's completely batsh*t retarded.
Call a spade a spade guys. Don't let some troll get you all worked up.
Looks like he got you the most worked up o.0
We used too it : D
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
lol oh we know hes trolling and just trying to get people going, nothing new here.
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
The Player should not HAVE to do anything to play the game effectively (mandated busywork is something you have to do)
The Player should ENJOY doing things to play the game effectively (interesting choices, otherwise automate it or remove it)
Also for the record, I do NOT care what Dustin Browder said/meant, etc. Nor should any of the rest of us, Nor does this poll.
This poll does not ask if you think Dustin Browder said something, it asks if you agree with a certain interpretation of a statement he is considered to have made.
Unless he is God, what he meant is irrelevant. Now I agree he is probably a good game designer, but the question should be answered as your opinion.... as a Player of Games... and in that, what Dustin Browder, Archer, Me, or anyone else 'meant to say' is irrelevant.
Do You as a player want to Have to do something in the game? Whether you enjoy it or not.
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
I don't have to do anything I don't enjoy.
Luckily I enjoy playing SC2 ( or hope too)
Just as I enjoyed playing sc1.
This is redic, this thread should be closed since the same discussion is going on in the giant pointless thread above.
Did I enjoy having no auto mine? Yes actually I did ( and I do enjoy not having auto mine as well I played wc3)
Why?
Because I knew that actions is a resource, and that the more attention I put into doing things like that the higher my econ went... and when i did things like harass them there actions were distracted meaning they weren't doing those things as well. I find that interesting, as do alot of players that play sc1.
I don't think you really have a point at all.
And please reply in the other thread ( you can copy this into your answer if you want)
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
Archer, he (Browder) doesn't mean physically moving the view to your base, necessarily, all he's referring to is not being able to queue units before you can afford them, and thus "automating" reinforcement production when your economy allows with your attention required at the moment of affordability, as many not so great RTS games have done.
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nicol Bolas
I don't know. Let me ask Multi-Building Selection:
I have to say.....this particular line, and everything that followed, is the funniest thing you ever wrote. :)
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
From the TL.net forums:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=104800
On November 01 2009 16:36 Aesop wrote:
I am a tad insulted that you don't trust me!
The minor change that was pointed out:
original says "scroll back to their base to recruit reinforcements"
which I rendered as "go back to their base" since it makes more sense in general.
I can't see why the rest of the paragraph would be mistranslated or would need another translation. If you want to know German nuances, just send me a PM about it.
Yeah I have to agree with Aesop here that was both insulting and pointless.
Foremost I´d assume that the actual interview was in English (unless Browder speaks German).
Secondly it´s all about context, especiall in an Interview. Gamestar was questioning Browder on UI "artifacts": Limited qeues, the inability to zoom far out etc.
NO ONE as SCLegacy questioned the validity of Aesops translation, the issue was always Archers interpretation.
On top of that actuall gameplay also doesn´t support constant scrolling back and forth between battlefield and base. Think about it, it would completely break Warp-in for one.
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SaharaDrac
Archer, he (Browder) doesn't mean physically moving the view to your base, necessarily, all he's referring to is not being able to queue units before you can afford them, and thus "automating" reinforcement production when your economy allows with your attention required at the moment of affordability, as many not so great RTS games have done.
This has come up several times. To everyone who thinks he is talking about production queues: What does production queues have to do with anything he talks about in that paragraph? Especially the scrolling back to base part.
Oh and Aesop (the original translator) says that the translation "go back to the base" was actually "scroll back to the base".
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
unentschieden
Yeah I have to agree with Aesop here that was both insulting and pointless.
How hypocritical is it to be the one who calls the translations validity into question and then act outraged when I show that he didnt mistranslate. And then in the very next sentence you do it again attacking the validity of the original translation. What are you going to do when that guy verifies that the translation is correct? Im guessing youd act outraged that Archer could question the validity and then create a new conspiracy theory where I held Dustin at gunpoint and forced him to say those words.
You guys have tried every trick in the book to discredit Dustins statement. Its pathetic and speaks volumes about how much you cling to your "no manual labor" beliefs.
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
WE don't have to discredit Browder.
THE GAME discredits Browder well enough on its own.
We're just trying to explain to you HOW it does so, since you clearly can't see it.
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
Its too bad Dustin didnt elaborate in further paragraphs about mechanics that have you go back to the base to produce reinforcements....
I mean if he had that would mean that the game actually reinforces what Dustin is saying and the real problem is your reconciling how some parts of the game can be automatic and other can have manual labor.
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ArcherofAiur
Its too bad Dustin didnt elaborate in the next two paragraphs about mechanics that have you go back to the base to produce reinforcements...
He didn't elaborate because THERE ARE NONE. You do NOT have to go back to the base to produce reinforcements. He was WRONG.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ArcherofAiur
I mean if he had that would mean that the game actually reinforces what Dustin is saying and the real problem is your reconciling how some parts of the game can be automatic and other can have manual labor.
1. Improve your English skills. That made very little sense.
2. Assuming my interpretation of what you just said is accurate, and it may not be, here's my answer:
The game does NOT reinforce what Dustin said. Ergo, what Dustin said IS NOT RELEVANT.
Some parts of the game can be automated. Some can have manual labor. No one has a problem with that. All we have ever said is that some of the things that are manual labor should be automated, like PC. You have given non one any reason to believe otherwise, and neither has Dustin.
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
The German -> English translation quality was NEVER the issue.And the actual confirmation you´d need would be the original English-> German one. The issue is that your entire argument relies on one or two words from a vocal statement wich has gone through 2 translations at that point.
As I have said before it´s much more important that it was an Interview with a completely different context. You´d have a point if you had other sources for your claims, alternative official statements or interviews that adress your issue directly.
On top of that any of this would have to be relativly recent since Blizzard sometimes change their mind.
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
Even though I'm completely confused about the idea of this thread.. I'm just wondering if the real question was this. To those of you that played C&C: Red Alert and those series of games, if I remember correctly you did not have to return to your base to produce units and begin to research buildings. You just had the bar on the side where you would just click and it would automatically produce the units for you back at your base. Perhaps here lies in this thought. Would you rather force the player to select each building or each group of buildings to produce units? Or would you rather just have some sort of option ala C&C on the side that would do this for you automatically without having to physically select the buildings. You can see what I mean at: http://www.mobygames.com/game/window...meShotId,6468/
This to me would seem to be the only real issue related to this question. Personally I think people enjoy the way that SC deals with this issue and they don't really want to see it messed around with too much.
Just a thought. Perhaps it just adds to the confusion overall.
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
[and unentschieden keeps trying to discredit]
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ArcherofAiur
[and unentschieden keeps trying to discredit]
Ad hominem is not usually a valid debate technique.
But in this case, I think we can make an exception.
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
Quote:
Ad hominem is not usually a valid debate technique.
He's not using ad hominem. Ad hominem is when you attack the source for something that has nothing to do with the material under discussion. If you attack the source for something that would clearly materially affect the validity of the source, then it's perfectly valid.
For example, if a source is a translation, then it is reasonable to at least ask the question as to whether it was a good translation before taking the source as fact. It would be Ad hominem to say that because the source is German, and Germans are bad people, then it is unreliable.
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nicol Bolas
He's not using ad hominem. Ad hominem is when you attack the source for something that has nothing to do with the material under discussion. If you attack the source for something that would clearly materially affect the validity of the source, then it's perfectly valid.
For example, if a source is a translation, then it is reasonable to at least ask the question as to whether it was a good translation before taking the source as fact. It would be Ad hominem to say that because the source is German, and Germans are bad people, then it is unreliable.
I know that.
Archer didn't though. Thanks for ruining my joke.
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Re: Should the player have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements?
Back on topic (since this is becoming a flamefest) I think that Starcraft is a game where players should have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements. This is a great part of classic RTS gameplay that has been lost in allot of recent titles where the base is too automated. It is fine to have a baseline level of resource and unit production be automated but there should also be an active portion. Players should be able to actively mine and actively increase unit produciton. Players should be able to do this by investing attention in the form of the back to base camera shift.
