Not to mention the Hellion is already the second fastest unit in the game, right under Cracklings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
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Not to mention the Hellion is already the second fastest unit in the game, right under Cracklings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
That would be like saying,Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
"just because psi storm can already stop infantry easily, doesn't mean we can't increase the damage it does."
What part of 'too powerful' do you not understand? Fyi, half a second is a big deal.
On the tank it might be a different story because its tank mode is something you don't see used. And by that time, your opponent should be capable of countering tanks. Not to mention the tank has been nerfed already.
The main issue with Hellions that can fire on the move is with their AoE attack.
The flames currently last for about a second. If during that time, any unit that moves under the flames also takes AoE damage, then it becomes very easy to turn a linear AoE into a triangular area AoE. For example:
Let's say that "H" is a Hellion and X is the unit it's targetting (U is some other unit). Given this positioning, when it starts firing, it will hit X and 2 Us.Code:X
U U
U U
H
As it currently stands, if the Hellion starts moving, then the flames stop. However, if you have fire and move, then you can do much more damage if you shift the Hellion to this position:
That will cause it to hit X and 4 Us. That is an almost a doubling of the damage that the one Hellion did.Code:X
U U
U U
H <--
Imagine a block of Marines. Now imagine just four Hellions that can, by sweeping their flames, do damage to all of them. That is, each Hellion hits each Marine. In order for this to not insta-kill these Marines, Hellions would have to do less than 10 damage each.
Having such a low-tier unit be such a powerful counter to anything that travels in groups is not a good idea.
Half a second is a lot in SC, and few ground units have movement speeds faster than the Hellion, if any, so effectively no unit will be able to run away from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
The explanation would be:
If TARGET has slower movement speed than ATTACKER, but ATTACKER must stop half a second to perform stop-attack-move, ATTACKER can only attack intermitently. 99% of the units work like this.
If ATTACKER can shoot on the move, he begins it's attack, and chases the TARGET. As it's faster, it doesn't need to ever stop it's attack.
And yet, somehow, that old UI with the old mechanics have become a professional sport, which CoH is still trying to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupino
I'm in favor of the Shooting-While-Moving for the Siege Tank, to give it's tank form more utility. It won't make them stand-alone units, but it will make retreating more viable.
I dont think the enemy should have a chance to run away. This would make everyone fear the awesome flanking power of the hellion which I htink is appropriate for the unit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norfindel
Dont go out without backup cause those Hellions will get you! :D
This is getting ridiculous, go back to elementary school or else improve your reading comprehension. What part of THIS don't you understand?Quote:
That would be like saying,
"just because psi storm can already stop infantry easily, doesn't mean we can't increase the damage it does."
What part of 'too powerful' do you not understand? Fyi, half a second is a big deal.
The Hellion can already chase down a lot of units, there is no unit it can't chase down. Making it move + fire at the same time, WILL NOT CHANGE THIS FACT. I'm not making any statements about balance alright? Get that through your skull.
People using the point that making the Hellion move and fire at the same time will allow it to chase down units that it otherwise couldn't, are making a stupid point. Get that through your skull.
And no, half a second is not a lot in Starcraft, I don't care how hyped up people make every "half second" to be, but it is not a lot of time.
Look at the god damn Battle Report, does it look like it will make a difference in whether it will be able to chase units down or not if it can move and fire? No, because it already moves instantly after firing, similar to how the vulture can do the same thing, now go and improve your damn reading comprehension.
Oh, really? Would you care to name which ground units besides cracklings move faster than the Hellion? And theoretically speaking, even if there was (which there ISN'T) MAKING THE HELLION MOVE + FIRE WON'T MAKE IT CATCH UP TO THAT UNIT ANY FASTER THAN IF IT DIDN'T MOVE + FIRE.Quote:
Half a second is a lot in SC, and few ground units have movement speeds faster than the Hellion, if any, so effectively no unit will be able to run away from it.
He said, "and few ground units have movement speeds faster than the Hellion." As in, almost none. Looks like YOU'RE the one who needs to improve their damn reading comprehension.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
*throws bucket of cold water on Pandonetho to cool him down*
Perhaps, however, A) You're a douchebag. and B) My comprehension attack was aimed at Crazy_Johnny.Quote:
He said, "and few ground units have movement speeds faster than the Hellion." As in, almost none. Looks like YOU'RE the one who needs to improve their damn reading comprehension.
Anyway, you're right, Norfindel did mention something different and as such my posts no longer apply to him.
Ad hominem is not a valid argument. You phail.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
Look up the definition of Ad Hominem before you try to use big words, you small little boy.Quote:
Ad hominem is not a valid argument. You phail.
I wasn't using an insult to make an argument. It is in fact you, who phails.
I used it in proper context. Stop being such a tool and chill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
Chill huh?
Let me just look in the macro thread for examples of being chill from my favourite role model, who happens to be Mr. Squid.
lol theres a great example of Dsquid being "chill" in the last post of that thread right now.
I chillfully called you out, troll.
Demo we all know when you have no better points you just insult people.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
Once again your prove your lack of reading comprehension, just like Pandouche. I only insult people when they're too stupid to understand my points and agree with me.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
:D
lol is that your nickname for me now?
Seemed appropriate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
[...]
Well, anyways, the second part of my post was the explanation of why units that shoot on the move can keep shooting other units more frequently/constantly:
Quote:
The explanation would be:
If TARGET has slower movement speed than ATTACKER, but ATTACKER must stop half a second to perform stop-attack-move, ATTACKER can only attack intermitently. 99% of the units work like this.
If ATTACKER can shoot on the move, he begins it's attack, and chases the TARGET. As it's faster, it doesn't need to ever stop it's attack.
There is a specific set cooldown on the flame, how is making it able to move and fire at the same time going to affect that if the Hellion can already keep up with its enemy?Quote:
Well, anyways, the second part of my post was the explanation of why units that shoot on the move can keep shooting other units more frequently/constantly:
While they shoot, they cannot move, so the enemy gets out of range, shortening the time of the attack, and forcing the Hellion to move again, and restart the firing cycle. If the Hellion could chase the enemy while shooting, the flame will hit the enemy 100% of the cooldown cycle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
Take a look at the battle report 4. In 10:40 there are some Hellions shooting at Stalkers. It's clear that the Stalkers can escape from the Hellions because of the stop-to-shoot mechanic, and the Hellions cannot shoot the full cycle.
At 8:12 there's a better example: a lonely Zealot running away from 3 Hellions. He dies at the end, but can run quite a bit before that happends. Should the 3 Hellions shoot constantly at him, he will be doomed in no time.
Again how much more of an awesome and unique harassment unit would the hellion have been had it had move-and-shoot and continuous fire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norfindel
Uh, you don't seem to realize that the entire damage is dealt from the initial burst of fire.
It doesn't matter if it shoots the entire duration.
It's exactly like the Colossus dealing its whole damage to a line of unit at once, it doesn't deal the damage from one side to the other.
That Zealot would have ran for just as long if they were firing their entire duration at him... because it doesn't do any extra damage.
Im not getting into a flame war like you guys with your silly macro mechanics. Respond without going off your knocker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
Anyway, my argument is not aimed at the fact the Hellion can already chase units. By giving it an attack on the move, it will be able to avoid/outmaneuver enemy attacks while still dealing out damage. It makes something that was already powerful even more powerful. It makes it much easier to kill low tier units without taking damage. That affects the units balance, does it not?
Explain how its a stupid point? Than I will get it through my skull. Back up your claims with something other than insults.Quote:
People using the point that making the Hellion move and fire at the same time will allow it to chase down units that it otherwise couldn't, are making a stupid point. Get that through your skull.
Its not the chasing down part, its being able to get ahead/surround the unit while attacking. At least when you have to stop, the enemy has a chance to retreat where he might have more units or something.
Again, the chasing units easier part is not my issue, but its that as soon as its in the line of fire, your hellion can attack, while chasing. It allows the hellion to get an extra attack off than it normally would if it had to stop. Theres no way you can implement this without a nerf, and nerfing the unit would make it more massable, which would mess with the balence.
With a fast unit like the Hellion, a half second for every stop can add up, since all the time your not moving is even worse than for a slower unit.Quote:
And no, half a second is not a lot in Starcraft, I don't care how hyped up people make every "half second" to be, but it is not a lot of time.
Plus, its not so much about the time, its about getting another volly off before getting on move again.
If they can fire on the move, theyll have the option to attack units on the way in for a harassment. As it stands now, when your going for a eco attack, you take a risk in loosing your units on the way in, not putting out any damage to whats around you.Quote:
Look at the god damn Battle Report, does it look like it will make a difference in whether it will be able to chase units down or not if it can move and fire? No, because it already moves instantly after firing, similar to how the vulture can do the same thing, now go and improve your damn reading comprehension.
Giving it an attack while moving diminishes the risk factor.
I think you explained it better than I couldve, not to mention it makes some point I wasnt thinking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
Anything caught in the Hellion's flame gets damaged, regardless of when it enters the flame. This has been confirmed by multiple people who have played the game at Cons. Nicol's information is correct, as is his illustration of what would happen if the Hellion had shoot-while-moving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
But the flame lasts a lot of time, surely the Hellion's attack rate is faster than that. It's listed as Normal in sc2armory, it would be a very slow attack rate, if it's cooldown was the duration of the flame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
It’s awesomely OP if that’s what you’re asking. All you need to do to counter a zealot rush is stay a bit out of melee range and it’ll constantly flame it to death (with the zealot player having absolutely no way to catch up to hellion)Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
I like the current way. It requires some micro, and you can burst damage.
IIT debating with people is pointless.
So are you implying that the Hellion CAN'T already do this?Quote:
It’s awesomely OP if that’s what you’re asking. All you need to do to counter a zealot rush is stay a bit out of melee range and it’ll constantly flame it to death (with the zealot player having absolutely no way to catch up to hellion)
I like how people are pulling "OP" out of their ass like they know it as a fact.
If you dont have a good point just call it OP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
I though that was the point of these forums?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
You sound sure it wouldn't be OPd, so were even I guess.Quote:
So are you implying that the Hellion CAN'T already do this?
I like how people are pulling "OP" out of their ass like they know it as a fact.
I mean, maybe if you lowered the splash given by the hellion, it COULD be done, but in my opinion, I prefer it staying the way it is now, since it has a niche.
Hey, what if Reapers can move and shoot?
Ok, I know its not a vehicle, but just imagine...
Oh do I really? Really?Quote:
You sound sure it wouldn't be OPd, so were even I guess.
I'm just pointing out certain arguments that certain people bring up, that are invalid. I have not once in this thread said I support making hellions move + fire.
I've also never said it would be balanced, and yet there are some people who seem to think it's a guaranteed imbalance, without any evidence at all to support the claim.
In my imagination, that would be pretty awesome. Of course I don't know whether it would be balanced or not.Quote:
Hey, what if Reapers can move and shoot?
Ok, fine, I DONT KNOW if it will be OP, I never said I did. I like the idea of Hellions being able to move and fire too. Thats why I constantly state, IN MY OPINION. Im just trying to get a different answer from you other than "it can already do that", but fine, Im sick of the unit now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
As for the reapers,
I thought it might be possible cuz it doesn't have splash, but whatever, maybe its too powerful with the D charges. Are those still in the game btw?
I don't see how it would change them much. As is, they don't have much of a wait time after firing, so they're about as close to firing on the move as Hellions.Quote:
Hey, what if Reapers can move and shoot?
Hellions have whats known as linear splash, like Lurkers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy_Jonny
I was referring to the reaper, sorry, Im editing like mad.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
If I see it right, it would have a pretty significant impact on how Reapers play in C/D games, and little impact on how they play at pro levels. They'd be a lot more devastating at worker raids in the hands of newbies because they could keep up with escaping workers without losing ANY damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
Move-and-shoot also impacts slower units much more than faster ones, so Reapers would get a bigger boost from this, over-all, than Hellions. Hellions can already run from an enemy, fire, and keep running without getting hit, even if they have to stop to do it. Reapers can't because they're not so fast that they can just stop and start without having chasers catch up to them.