Carriers are OP?Quote:
Originally Posted by pure.Wasted
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Carriers are OP?Quote:
Originally Posted by pure.Wasted
Yeah carrier are OP because:Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
«Making Carriers is a very good skill toi have» -Idra
XD
Btw everything is balancable.
No, Carriers can fire while moving (effectively, if not actually).Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
Yes, Starcraft 2 should have more units that can move and shoot, I feel very strongly about this, particularly the Hellion. It is vastly inferior to the Vulture if it can't move and shoot.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
Erm... the Hellion is capable of moving-and-shooting precisely to the same degree as was the Vulture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noise
Hmm... ArcherofAiur, can you add a poll to this thread so we can vote?
something like
"I totally approve this"
"I like the idea"
"I don't, like it"
I personally think that if Siege Tanks had a limited "shoot while move" in SC1 they could have it full in SC2. that goes for Carriers and maybe a couple of Zerg units... I don't know, just as needed so it's kept balanced!:o
Not really. Through silly patrol-micro, you could make Vultures attack and move while not stopping for even a split second. It's similar to Mutalisk micro, mechanically.Quote:
the Hellion is capable of moving-and-shooting precisely to the same degree as was the Vulture.
Er, haven't we seen the Hellion do exactly that? I was under the impression they could replicate this trick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
You're right. I was thinking about something else.Quote:
Er, haven't we seen the Hellion do exactly that? I was under the impression they could replicate this trick.
From the videos I saw it looked like the hellion wouldn't do that, but I'll get I'll be happy mistaken.
I dont think it lets you add a poll afterwards. Would have been a good idea though. I didnt expect this much positive support.
Helion was moving like the vulture in BR4 but the fact it got wells and a flamethrower attack make it out of place. Vulture had a single high-output attack making it microable, not the helion...
Umm... and the Hellion has a high-output AoE attack, making it every bit as microable as the Vulture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gt2slurp
But yes, I guess if you're coming from some strange desire for the Hellion to actually be the Vulture, I can see how you might be disappointed, because it isn't.
You have to stop carriers before they release their units. And steam tanks are from Warcraft…Quote:
Originally Posted by pure.Wasted
It’s not a made up rule, it’s the rule of all Blizzard games. There are exceptions to this rule but very few. The only unit in SC2 is Voidray, and it has to stop to open fire. (oh and of course the carrier)
They only really break this rule to make units playable. If the carrier interceptors instantly stopped firing when you moved them, it’s quite hard to use carriers. And same goes for Voidray. The second they move out of its range, it’ll have to start from first level dmg again. I don’t know how steam tanks work so bleh.
If there is a micro option for the hellion to make it “fire on the move” then why program it in to make it easier for newbs? Hellion would be way too OP if you allowed them to fire on the move. That means when you’re running away, Hellion will be doing constant aoe dmg to your retreating troops. No input from the enemy play even required.
Like hell it's a Blizzard rule, just like "no MBS" or "no smartcasting" are Blizzard rules :rolleyes: Fanboys just can't get over the fact that 10 year old UIs and mechanics are old, stale, and broken, and that Starcraft/BW is not the Be All and End All of RTS games.
Shooting while moving would be a great addition, it would open up new strategies for players to try out and the possibility of new mechanics being added. Most melee units would still be faster, so they could chase down fleeing units, and if you really must you could add a penalty to the unit firing while on the move.
that king of thing is hard to balance, blizz should keep things simple+professional
Shooting while moving should not be a global thing. It should be an intrinsic part of the nature of certain units. Some units should be able to do it and some shouldn't.Quote:
Shooting while moving would be a great addition, it would open up new strategies for players to try out and the possibility of new mechanics being added. Most melee units would still be faster, so they could chase down fleeing units, and if you really must you could add a penalty to the unit firing while on the move.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pure.Wasted
Steam tanks can only attack buildings.
...
...and air units after the upgrade.Quote:
Originally Posted by newcomplex
Cant remember if it moves while shooting tho. (?) Also, there was that whole thing about being able to load the steam tanks with riflemen. (beta)....would have been some hefty move-and-shoot, then.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiderBrigade
I don’t think you get it. Shooting while moving is a horribly bad idea and should only be put on a few units if stopping while shooting breaks their gameplay. All you have to do is intercept the enemy and it’s gg for them. Lets take your idea of melee unit vs ranged. A melee unit will just run up to the ranged unit and start hacking… the ranged unit starts running, and the melee unit will keep up the pace, while hacking away at the ranged. And if you want to balance it, you let the ranged guy somehow run backwards as he’s firing at the melee guy. Then you’re literally just watching one guy shoot the other guy while running, and the other guy flailing his arms cutting him as he chases 5cm away (assume they are the same speed) This goes on until one person dies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupino
The currently stop while you attack means if you run, the attacker does less DPS than usual (since units have to stop, shoot, catch up, stop shoot)… it allows you to withdraw your forces while suffering less damage, and gives the offender time to realize that by following, he’ll just be walking into an ambush. Another key here is that units don’t shoot while moving. The second the enemy decides to run, he can’t attack you and you do less DPS to him. That creates another level of gameplay that can’t be found in shooting while running mechanics. You kite a unit like that that feels fair. In a shooting while running system, kiting is just moving a faster unit away from a melee unit and it will keep firing as it moves. If you kite in SC, you have to shoot… move, stop, turn around, and shoot… so the end points of your click is where you get to shoot back, and the second he gets to you, to move. It’s a much more complicated in depth system compared to just clicking 5 waypoints and then watching the melee character play piggy in the middle as your gun shoots continuously.
It also gives a lot of strategy in terms of offensive and defensive. An even worse implementation is initiating shooting while moving, ie just get into range, your units will open file. The current system, you need to take some flak before the bulk of your forces are in range then you stop and shoot. So defenders have a “slightly” better advantage. If you didn’t need to stop, you simply dance around your forces until the automatic firing kills both sides.
This is the gameplay that Supreme Commander was made of. You simply move two massive land forces into each others range, you micro by moving them aimlessly in multitude of directions (since their turrets track and shoot automatically, and some times if they move fast enough you can dodge bullets)… it’s a very boring gameplay that doesn’t really have the strategic depth that Starcraft has. It’s literally just two massive mound of troops, you click as many places as you can on the ground, and the troops move in circles while shooting at the enemy. When you run, your enemy will just chase with his mass of forces near you since they don’t have to stop and shoot… Most of the time when you want to run (ie if you’re losing the battle) the enemy will keep running after you since tanks are usually the same speed (sometimes even next to you) shooting non stop until your entire forces are wiped out. If you think this kind of commit all your forces to a battle and watch them kill each other gameplay is good then please, go play SupCom.
How is that bad? The melee fire-and-move unit can beat the ranged fire-or-move unit. Unless the ranged fire-or-move unit stops and shoots. Hmmm now we have a new type of battlefield dynamic different from all the other fire-or-move vs fire-or-move fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wankey
And you said all you have to do is interceppt the enemy and its gg. Thats kind of a gross overstatement. What if they stop and shoot? What if they are faster? What if your moving away from the rest of your army or a hundred other battlefield factors that can affect the outcome?
Now I agree with you that every unit shouldnt have this. In fact I agree that most units shouldnt have that. But there is nothing wrong with giving a couple units this advantage.
Shooting while moving on the Hellion is a BAD idea. While it does sound cool, it would hurt it balence wise. The hellion is suppose to be a high micro unit (atleast thats what I think harassment units should be), plus it already has huge splash damage. Moving with splash would be overpowered (zealots and lings wouldn't be able to escape).
Now the tank on the other hand sounds like a good idea, because as mentioned before, it could encourage the tank mode. Maybe when it fires, it should give off a recoil (slow down for a split second). Just an idea.
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Jonny
Im slowly being persuaded to that opinion. move-and-shoot should go on appropriate units and the Siege Tank (Tank Mode) could definatly use it.
Uh, how does making them move and fire at the same time change the fact that Zealots and lings can't escape? They already can't escape.Quote:
Moving with splash would be overpowered (zealots and lings wouldn't be able to escape).
If you micro correctly, the move+attack idea just makes it even easier to micro. Atleast when you have to stop, it means you need to pull ahead of the zealot or ling first and position correctly. With auto fire, you just have to keep up with no thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
None of that is relevant to what I said, whether Hellions can move and fire at the same time or not doesn't change the fact that Zealots and Lings just can't escape, so it was a moot point to begin with.
I was using that as an example. Lets put it this way, you have a mobile unit with splash damage. Powerful combo right there. Now the mobile unit doesn't have to stop. That would be like increasing the speed of an already fast unit. Its imbalenced. Its advantage over small infantry can be exploited even further.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
Another example:
It would also be easier to harass the worker lines while avoiding fire. You dont have to worry about placing your units in a certain place before stopping to attack, you can just constantly move along the mineral line and avoid fire from reinforcements.
I like the coolness of the ability, but its just too powerful.
Yeah I'm sure the world dictates that making an already fast unit faster is imbalanced in SC2, a game we haven't played yet. Sure love the terabytes of evidence supporting this.Quote:
I was using that as an example. Lets put it this way, you have a mobile unit with splash damage. Powerful combo right there. Now the mobile unit doesn't have to stop. That would be like increasing the speed of an already fast unit. Its imbalenced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy_Jonny
Hmmm helions constantly moving around a mineral line torching probes. I actually dont think that would be too powerful.
That's because it isn't, you can do the exact same thing whether moving and shooting at the same time exists or not. The only thing this changes for the Hellion is the amount of clicking. All you have to do is move click and let it attack automatically without using the attack command. Nothing else changed, the Hellion can already move immediately after firing.Quote:
Hmmm helions constantly moving around a mineral line torching probes. I actually dont think that would be too powerful.
You say nothing has changed. Whats changed is whether the hellion has to stop for a second.
Edit: yup had that wrong.
Well sorry for giving my opinion. But if the unit is already balanced, making it faster will make it imbalanced, thats just how I see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
Im going to elaborate on the example so you get what Im trying to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
Say you do what David Kim did in BR4 where he bypassed the protoss defenses and pursued the probes. He cant fire at anything coming at him while hes doing this, he is taking damage on the way in with no gain. Now while hes attacking the probes, he eventually has to stop to attack, giving the reinforcements he bypassed time to catch up with him. Then he'll have to escape, not giving away damage to the reinforcements.
Now give him the ability to attack on the go, he can attack everything on his way in and out. That means the defenses he bypasses will take some damage going in and out of the base. It will also be tougher for reinforcements to catch him because he can move around while harassing the probes. Therefor theres less pressure on the hellion to move wisely and time correctly.
Atleast, thats what I see happening, I cant give the exact numbers on how overpowered it will be. But it will definitely be more powerful than now. Thats something I dont want.
I dont think anyones denying that it would be more powerful. But as usual overpowered remains an opinionated term.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy_Jonny
I think it would be imbalanced for an early tier unit that is double pump able to be able to do that. Ill just leave it at that, correct me if you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy_Jonny
How can I? :) You said thats what you think instead of saying hellions with fire-and-move would be imbalanced. Period.
What a pity. Now, what, how can we know?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
Did you think a mod could add such things? I think so.
Seeing the posts, it seems like the Siege tank could be a good candidate to get it. I just wonder if they behave the same way they did in SC1. I mean, the semi-shoot while move. If they were moving among enemy unit's or buildings their cannons fired on the least stop or slow down in movement! That was interesting, but not as useful as full shoot while move could be for Siege Tanks!
Actually with the rather fast rate of fire for siege tanks in tank mode now, I think it could make quite a difference between having to stop to shoot, and not having to stop at all.
This would largely (IMO) affect the interaction between early game tanks and zealots without speed.
uhhh... Fire on the move for the Hellion would be too much, it already deals tons of damage on a big AoE, and it's fast and cheap. The enemy is supposed to at least have the chance of running away, if his force has not the right unit mix. If the Hellion can fry them while he chases them, they're doomed.
Really? This again? Might I refer you to the post above? Explain to me exactly how making the Hellion Move + Fire makes it able to chase down units it formerly couldn't?Quote:
uhhh... Fire on the move for the Hellion would be too much, it already deals tons of damage on a big AoE, and it's fast and cheap. The enemy is supposed to at least have the chance of running away, if his force has not the right unit mix. If the Hellion can fry them while he chases them, they're doomed.
Oh wait, it doesn't, because of the fact that the Hellion can move immediately after firing a short burst, the difference is practically less than half a second.