Are Dragoons "Realistic?"

I was reading an article on Phys Org about new treatments for encouraging a patient's body to accept bone transplants. We have such advanced medical technology now it's ridiculous; viral vector therapy, prosthetics with haptic feedback, cloning and regeneration, neutral circuitry, etc.

Why, then, don't the protoss treat their wounded with technology that far surpasses our own? Do zealots accept so many grafts and prosthetics over the years that, by the final time they've fallen in battle, they're little more than a brain in a shell anyways? Is that why the central hub of a dragoon is so small -- because there's nothing left but a head?

Also, as a side note-- do we know what that spinning device is under their chassis?

I'm happy with cyborg zealots- imo the ones with the zealot leg upgrades should have 100% robotic legs already, no reason why one who lost an arm or something wouldn't get a prosthetic arm.

That said, then it kind of doesn't make sense that critically injured zealots are never placed in zealot-shaped Purifier-style robot bodies.

For the spinning thing, I would just make up some technobabble, like it 'stabilizes or grounds the photonic field' or something.

I kinda wonder if the rotating thing is the result of gameplay changes between alpha and beta stages. We see that the Goliaths have an extra chain gun on the underside. Heroes of the Storm gave Fenix a rapid fire blaster, but removed the rotating thing entirety.

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Do zealots accept so many grafts and prosthetics over the years that, by the final time they've fallen in battle, they're little more than a brain in a shell anyways? Is that why the central hub of a dragoon is so small -- because there's nothing left but a head?

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If we refer to the immortal portrait, it seems like they still have most of their body. I'd assume that it would be the same for dragoons in most cases. Plus, most other protoss that you see in the games appear to have their full body. Possible reasons off the top of my head:

-It's an honor to fall in battle and having a crippled body is a badge of honor. Therefore, Protoss willingly refuse to have their body regenerated.
-A fallen protoss has the choice to have his body healed OR get transplanted into a killing machine that is tactically superior in many situations. Some chose the latter.
-Protoss, being "perfect", have a body that is a lot more complicated than humans and recovery, even with the best tech that can be offered, is a long/hard process. On the other hand, being transplanted in a dragoon is fast/simple.

Could be a cultural thing. Growing new Protoss body parts could be seen as a taboo desecration.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Could be a cultural thing. Growing new Protoss body parts could be seen as a taboo desecration.

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Originally Posted by sandwich_bird

It's an honor to fall in battle and having a crippled body is a badge of honor. Therefore, Protoss willingly refuse to have their body regenerated.

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This. Protoss are all about tradition, honour and pride. It's definitely a cultural reason if anything else. It'd also explain why such a high tech race who can and should exclusively deliver death from afar with frickin laser beams and mind powers would even bother to have their core infantry force engage in melee combat, which is the most risky and least efficient method of engaging in combat.

I find it incredible the protoss don't have some form of high-precision long ranged option for surgical strikes. As much as the Elite's honor bound culture influenced the Covenant military, their forces still used snipers. There has to be some equivalent available to the protoss.

What, do High Templar look through a scope and make them enemy's head pop?

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

I find it incredible the protoss don't have some form of high-precision long ranged option for surgical strikes. As much as the Elite's honor bound culture influenced the Covenant military, their forces still used snipers. There has to be some equivalent available to the protoss.

What, do High Templar look through a scope and make them enemy's head pop?

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https://www.urbandictionary.com/defi...niper&amp=true

I meant the Khalai and you know it. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

Why, then, don't the protoss treat their wounded with technology that far surpasses our own? Do zealots accept so many grafts and prosthetics over the years that, by the final time they've fallen in battle, they're little more than a brain in a shell anyways? Is that why the central hub of a dragoon is so small -- because there's nothing left but a head?

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It's probably just their warrior's code in a warped way: you give them something to fight in via their warrior spirit, that is all

Thinking from a plausible world building perspective, I would say that the reasons are complicated and messy.

Is the dragoon the only option for crippled warriors? Do the protoss not have bionics or artificial limbs or whatever? I see two options overall:

• Option 1: As sandwich says, protoss can have their bodies repaired or replaced with bionics, but choose not to for cultural, tactical or time-sensitive reasons.
• Option 2: as visions says, dragons are the end result of warriors constantly upgrading themselves with cybernetics after suffering injuries in battle. Protoss medicine may have simply chosen to advance in bionics for convenience, leaving biological repairs behind.

Speaking of which, this leads me into the teleport death retcon from SC2. It makes them look like hypocritical cowards if they claim to give their lives but in actually are teleported away at the last second. As with the dragoon rationale, I have considered two solutions for this that make it fit their warrior-poet culture:

• Option 1: Protoss may be resuscitated from clinical death after a much, much longer period of time than humans can. So in actually, the protoss teleport their fresh corpses off the battlefield and resuscitate them. Because of the decomposition, it may be easier to place them in what are essentially mobile cryogenic coffins equipped with guns.
• Option 2: Protoss actually do burst into flames (or fall apart, boil away, disintegrate, crystallize, etc) when they die. However, at the same time this reaction is used to power a psychic signal which uploads their mind to the Khala (similar to cylon resurrection in the 2003-2007 Battlestar Galactica series). From there, their mind may be downloaded into a cloned body or a robotic/cyborg shell of some kind. (I assume, for budgetary reasons, the protoss forces in the games are much less diverse than in the lore.)

Or some combination thereof, or something like that, whatever. Honestly, this is by far the least difficult of the problems with the Starcraft lore.

You know if they chose option 2, it could lead to the reason as to why they eventually created the purifiers to begin with

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

You know if they chose option 2, it could lead to the reason as to why they eventually created the purifiers to begin with

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You would think so, wouldn't you?

Blizzard's execution of the purifiers is mind-numbingly stupid, like most of their writing. If the protoss are resurrecting their dead in robot bodies, would would they NOT treat them as the resurrected dead? We could have explored an interesting avenue of protoss culture where death is not feared like it is for humans, but no! Instead we got the lame ridiculously human robot war cliche that has appeared a bazillion times already in scifi. Even Necron-style undead Egyptian conquerors in space would have been more creative (since it isn't common enough to have become a cliche).

Obviously the Protoss view them as copies (which they are), not resurrections, which makes your idea sound kinda dumb. The Purifier arc was actually good, no clue what you’re talking about.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Obviously the Protoss view them as copies (which they are), not resurrections, which makes your idea sound kinda dumb. The Purifier arc was actually good, no clue what you’re talking about.

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We, modern day humans, are having numerous arguments about the ethics of AI. We write cyberpunk fiction exploring the possibilities, including whether a copy qualifies as a person. We have real arguments over whether it is moral to create an AI with human intelligence that is literally programmed to enjoy being enslaved. In fact, since there is no evidence of an afterlife, we have arguments over whether a copy of a dead person is them or not. Many cyberpunk settings actually consider it perfectly moral to murder people as long as they have a backup, even if the backup is a few hours (or days) out of date.

If the protoss' Khala functions as a afterlife, since it allows them to speak with their dead and potentially download them into new bodies (I'm ignoring the retcons), why would they not consider a Khala backup of a dead person to be that person? As far as their civilization is concerned, the afterlife is a real place governed by their sciences and not subject to the philosophical quandaries humans deal with.

It is, quite frankly, utterly unbelievable that the protoss are somehow smart enough to clone whole personalities yet stupid enough to think it makes perfect sense to enslave said clones. We humans, despite being vastly less advanced, are smart enough to realize that enslaving something with a personality and equal intelligence to us is obviously a stupid idea. We write television shows about that!

The only time I have ever seen this done smartly in fiction is in an episode of Black Mirror. In one episode they clone people's mind in order to create personalized butlers for smart houses. Obviously, the clones do not want to be slaves. Do you know how the programmers convince them to? They torture them until they either acquiescence or go insane. To add insult to injury, the insane AIs are then sold to MMOs to be used as extras in virtual battlefields. (This is meant to be social commentary.)

Either the protoss treat their AIs respectfully or they torture them into submission. Anything else is too stupid for any "advanced" civilization to resort to. Heck, even "primitive" civilizations realize that slaves have to be broken in before they will serve.

Keep in mind the Judicators' treatment of protoss from other castes; Aldaris looked down upon and scoffed at Tassadar and Fenix. He even treated Fenix' apparent death at Antioch as little more than a nuisance, as if it were his whole duty to die. Even look at Rohana's treatment of Karax. So it is a very small leap indeed from this to understanding the Judicators' treatment of Purifiers as mindless automatons. And who knows how the Purifiers were "marketed"; perhaps the Conclave insisted the Purifiers be described to Templar as automatons with advanced emotion imitation subroutines.

The protoss have an interesting relationship with death; it is the natural and aspired-to end state of Templar (so on this regard Templar and Tal'Darim are very similar), and yet the society in general seems obsessed with immortality and life after death.

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

Keep in mind the Judicators' treatment of protoss from other castes; Aldaris looked down upon and scoffed at Tassadar and Fenix. He even treated Fenix' apparent death at Antioch as little more than a nuisance, as if it were his whole duty to die. Even look at Rohana's treatment of Karax. So it is a very small leap indeed from this to understanding the Judicators' treatment of Purifiers as mindless automatons. And who knows how the Purifiers were "marketed"; perhaps the Conclave insisted the Purifiers be described to Templar as automatons with advanced emotion imitation subroutines.

The protoss have an interesting relationship with death; it is the natural and aspired-to end state of Templar (so on this regard Templar and Tal'Darim are very similar), and yet the society in general seems obsessed with immortality and life after death.

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The judicator's flagrant disregard for their own people does not make much sense if the Khala forces protoss to feel each other's pain (that is why it ended the Aeon of Strife and ushered world peace impossible for humans). The writers clearly forgot how the Khala was supposed to work.

Honestly, why do you guys keep analyzing Blizzard's writing when it clearly does not make sense?

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

We, modern day humans, are having numerous arguments about the ethics of AI. We write cyberpunk fiction exploring the possibilities, including whether a copy qualifies as a person. We have real arguments over whether it is moral to create an AI with human intelligence that is literally programmed to enjoy being enslaved.

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Which is what happened in the game.

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In fact, since there is no evidence of an afterlife, we have arguments over whether a copy of a dead person is them or not. Many cyberpunk settings actually consider it perfectly moral to murder people as long as they have a backup, even if the backup is a few hours (or days) out of date.

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Cool. This has nothing to do with the protoss. Copying a person and having it really be "you" requires 100% quantum fidelity. The protoss have not achieved this.

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If the protoss' Khala functions as a afterlife, since it allows them to speak with their dead and potentially download them into new bodies (I'm ignoring the retcons), why would they not consider a Khala backup of a dead person to be that person? As far as their civilization is concerned, the afterlife is a real place governed by their sciences and not subject to the philosophical quandaries humans deal with.

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The concept of death would have no meaning/weight if that's how it actually worked, which would be dumb. Personally, I'm kinda glad they retconned that (or at least pulled back on it).

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It is, quite frankly, utterly unbelievable that the protoss are somehow smart enough to clone whole personalities yet stupid enough to think it makes perfect sense to enslave said clones. We humans, despite being vastly less advanced, are smart enough to realize that enslaving something with a personality and equal intelligence to us is obviously a stupid idea. We write television shows about that!

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All we know is that they were viewed as tools and not afforded the same respect as Templar, which they didn't like so they began a robot uprising. And then the Conclave said "ok, this won't work, shut down the program." Frankly, the Conclave didn't seem to treat the Templar much better. Judicators are arrogant, which causes them to do stupid shit, but that's kind of the whole point.

It's going to be a boring remake of SC1 you've got where nothing bad ever happens because everyone is hyper-intelligent. <_<

Literally though, you can't fathom a scenario where smart leaders make bad decisions because they're detached from events and out-of-touch? Really?

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The only time I have ever seen this done smartly in fiction is in an episode of Black Mirror. In one episode they clone people's mind in order to create personalized butlers for smart houses. Obviously, the clones do not want to be slaves. Do you know how the programmers convince them to? They torture them until they either acquiescence or go insane. To add insult to injury, the insane AIs are then sold to MMOs to be used as extras in virtual battlefields. (This is meant to be social commentary.)

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Yeah I've seen that one, it's pretty messed up. A good episode, but not realistic. If I knew there was a clone of me being tortured out there somewhere, I'd never consent to be cloned and I'd do my best to rescue it. :P

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Either the protoss treat their AIs respectfully or they torture them into submission. Anything else is too stupid for any "advanced" civilization to resort to. Heck, even "primitive" civilizations realize that slaves have to be broken in before they will serve.

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No, those are not the only options. I can think of 10 more off the top of my head. -_-

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

The judicator's flagrant disregard for their own people does not make much sense if the Khala forces protoss to feel each other's pain (that is why it ended the Aeon of Strife and ushered world peace impossible for humans). The writers clearly forgot how the Khala was supposed to work.

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Obviously, it doesn't work that way. It's not even implied to work that way in the manual... If it did, the judicators wouldn't have attacked the rogues. The level of immersion in the khala seems to be up to the individual protoss (which is how the Sargas try to resist its effects).

If it worked that way period, that would be dumb. Say goodbye to any PvP in the campaign. Just no.

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

Honestly, why do you guys keep analyzing Blizzard's writing when it clearly does not make sense?

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I don't know, why do you push your misinterpretations & fanon as fact all the time? It's annoying that I've always tried to put thought and lack of bias into my criticisms of Metzen, but you seem to think you're entitled to make up random unsupported fanon and use that as fuel for the fire when it inevitably clashes with canon.

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

If the protoss are resurrecting their dead in robot bodies, would would they NOT treat them as the resurrected dead?

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Simple. It's because recreation and resurrection are not the same thing nor would it ever be considered as such. It's made clear that the entity that initially defines itself as Fenix in LotV is a recreation based on stored data, not a resurrection. Even if it weren't for the fact they were in robot bodies, you can still make a copy of someone down to the minutest physical and mental detail but no-one will ever agree it is the same thing as the original. The copy will always be a copy and therefore, somewhat lesser when compared to the original. Of course, if one didn't know the copy was a copy in the first place, all bets are off but since Protoss are aware they have the technology to make copies of each other using stored memories and data, they'd always consider copies/clones as not really being the original thing (or, in this case, a continuation/resurrection of the original being it represents). It also depends on whether mainstream Protoss consider their technology prowess as being able to literally recreate the soul with these copies. I somehow doubt that they do.

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

You would think so, wouldn't you?

Blizzard's execution of the purifiers is mind-numbingly stupid, like most of their writing. If the protoss are resurrecting their dead in robot bodies, would would they NOT treat them as the resurrected dead? We could have explored an interesting avenue of protoss culture where death is not feared like it is for humans, but no! Instead we got the lame ridiculously human robot war cliche that has appeared a bazillion times already in scifi. Even Necron-style undead Egyptian conquerors in space would have been more creative (since it isn't common enough to have become a cliche).

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Once again this just shows you think the only success they had with it all was they failed EVERYTHING

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Which is what happened in the game.

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That still makes the protoss look like idiots for not realizing that treating intelligent beings like property might be a bad idea long before they made that mistake.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Copying a person and having it really be "you" requires 100% quantum fidelity. The protoss have not achieved this.

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A wonderful philosophical debate, but would people really care in practice? If my family died and I was offered a perfect replication, I would not care about quantum fidelity and neither would the clones. I take what I can get.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

The concept of death would have no meaning/weight if that's how it actually worked, which would be dumb. Personally, I'm kinda glad they retconned that (or at least pulled back on it).

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That would not take the meaning out of death. If it did then nobody would enjoy cyberpunk fiction. A society where the afterlife was a real thing and the dead could be revived would be a fascinating thing to explore. It also makes the protoss less like the funny-looking humans they are now. I expect them to not be funny-looking humans and that the writers actually think about how having a forced empathy network and other amazing technology would affect their behavior.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

All we know is that they were viewed as tools and not afforded the same respect as Templar, which they didn't like so they began a robot uprising. And then the Conclave said "ok, this won't work, shut down the program." Frankly, the Conclave didn't seem to treat the Templar much better. Judicators are arrogant, which causes them to do stupid shit, but that's kind of the whole point.

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The judicators are way too stupid to make sense. I would expect that behavior from USA politicians because humans are not connected to an empathy network, but if the judicators are connected to an empathy network which forms the foundation of their civilization, their constant obvious stupidity really should not happen. The writing contrives to make them look like bumbling morons rather than giving them any nuance or believable justification.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

It's going to be a boring remake of SC1 you've got where nothing bad ever happens because everyone is hyper-intelligent. <_<

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I am not demanding that the protoss be hyper-intelligent. I only only expect them to be at least as smart as the audience.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Literally though, you can't fathom a scenario where smart leaders make bad decisions because they're detached from events and out-of-touch? Really?

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Because the Khala exists and it is the foundation of their civilization. The entire point of having the damn thing is to make them distinct in psychology and behavior from humans, such as their impossible world peace. If they are just humans playing a D&D LARP, then they should be replaced by actual humans. If the judicators have always acted like asshats who alienate everyone else, then the Khala's peace should never have been possible. Unless they are genuinely sympathetic to the plights and causes of the templar and khalai, the other castes would have revolted and killed them long ago. Considering that the Aeon of Strife supposedly lasted for millions of years or thousands of generations or whatever and peace was impossible until the Khala was instituted, I think it is safe to say that protoss feel emotions and hold grudges orders of magnitude more strongly than humans do and that they will not tolerate the same blatant idiocy in their politics that humans do.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Yeah I've seen that one, it's pretty messed up. A good episode, but not realistic. If I knew there was a clone of me being tortured out there somewhere, I'd never consent to be cloned and I'd do my best to rescue it. :P

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Yet you accept the protoss are too damn stupid to realize the same thing?

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Originally Posted by Gradius

No, those are not the only options. I can think of 10 more off the top of my head. -_-

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Like what? And yes, it has to sound like something we the genre savvy audience would think sensible rather than the idiotic drivel that Blizzard shits out.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Obviously, it doesn't work that way. It's not even implied to work that way in the manual... If it did, the judicators wouldn't have attacked the rogues. The level of immersion in the khala seems to be up to the individual protoss (which is how the Sargas try to resist its effects).

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The rogues were not part of the Khala, so the judicators did not feel their pain. Furthermore, the Sargas entry does not specifically imply the Khala has "immersion levels," only that they do something to resist its influence on them. We do not really receive an explanation, but I would think the Khala works like the Tumblr hive mind and the Sargas resist it by more strongly embracing their cultural heritage or something. Trying to reduce immersion in the Khala would definitely be considered a crime.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

If it worked that way period, that would be dumb. Say goodbye to any PvP in the campaign. Just no.

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The protoss are not the zerg. The protoss clearly have the ability to manipulate how the Khala works given how much they studied it and it is nowhere as strong as the Overmind, so you are blowing things out of proportion. Furthermore, Tassadar goes against your claim by surrendering because he feels the suffering of his enemies.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

I don't know, why do you push your misinterpretations & fanon as fact all the time? It's annoying that I've always tried to put thought and lack of bias into my criticisms of Metzen, but you seem to think you're entitled to make up random unsupported fanon and use that as fuel for the fire when it inevitably clashes with canon.

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Because canon really is that stupid.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Simple. It's because recreation and resurrection are not the same thing nor would it ever be considered as such. It's made clear that the entity that initially defines itself as Fenix in LotV is a recreation based on stored data, not a resurrection. Even if it weren't for the fact they were in robot bodies, you can still make a copy of someone down to the minutest physical and mental detail but no-one will ever agree it is the same thing as the original. The copy will always be a copy and therefore, somewhat lesser when compared to the original. Of course, if one didn't know the copy was a copy in the first place, all bets are off but since Protoss are aware they have the technology to make copies of each other using stored memories and data, they'd always consider copies/clones as not really being the original thing (or, in this case, a continuation/resurrection of the original being it represents). It also depends on whether mainstream Protoss consider their technology prowess as being able to literally recreate the soul with these copies. I somehow doubt that they do.

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I am pretty sure the copy itself and everyone who interacts with it will contest this. A copy of a living person would be an identical twin. Honestly, it makes social, economic, military, etc sense to copy people as many times as needed. A brilliant scientist could be everywhere their services are required, while dead relatives could be replaced with perfect duplicates. Funerals would be happy celebrations since the deceased would exist forever within the Khala and return to fight in times of need. Society would be fascinatingly alien compared to our own. The dark side would be that such a society would have a horrifyingly casual attitude towards death, considering people expendable as long as copies exist elsewhere.

Sorry, I still don’t buy your fan hypotheses. Start going off only what it says in the game/manual, and then your arguments might begin to make sense. Where is controlling immersion in the Khala “definitely a crime”? Obviously the Judicator don’t feel the same compassion as Tassadar. What if a doctor is treating a patient in severe pain? The doctor can’t tone back his pain levels he’s getting from the patient? This is stupid. And again, your ridiculous fanon would not allow for any PvP.

The protoss cannot create perfect duplicates. And even if they could only then is it "up for debate" whether it’s a “resurrection”. Everything in SC has been a copy.

Also, go replay LoTV because I don’t think you get the Purifier arc. The clones were not tortured, they were treated as tools/slaves who would continue doing what their source personalities did in life, and then shut down after the Conclave found out that wasn't going to work. Comparing this to the black mirror episode is nonsensical. Nothing like that happened.

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Because canon really is that stupid.

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So far all you’ve demonstrated is that you don’t understand canon. I say go back and play it again.

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If my family died and I was offered a perfect replication, I would not care about quantum fidelity and neither would the clones. I take what I can get.

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... Mm, yeah, I'm gonna be That Guy for a minute.

I lost my family when I was younger -- mom, dad, aunts and uncles and cousins. The whole shebang.

Do I want a replication of them? I can't say that I do. Because I know it wouldn't be them. You can replicate and simulate as much as you want, but the qualia of the originals' experience is gone, forever.

Ask yourself, how long would you keep your simulations around? What would be done with them once you grow beyond them? (And don't question that you won't -- we all grow beyond family to varying degrees.)

Imagine, using Star Trek technology, a transporter malfunction replicated, to the quark, your best friend. Is the replication your best friend too? Is he his own person? Should he be used as a simple backup by you or his family? Would you feel nothing if the original were lost? This is getting into some Ship of Theseus shit here.

Now imagine that transporter malfunction was actually engineered by you in anticipation of your friend dying. Was this to preserve your friend for his sake-- or was it just to make yourself feel better?

I know some of the things in Starcraft are a little silly, but I like to speculate how these stories played out. When considering the Purifiers, you see an abused and boring trope. I like to wonder how they got to this point. Remember, there are no new stories under the sun, its all about execution and how you arrive at your solutions.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Sorry, I still don’t buy your fan hypotheses. Start going off only what it says in the game/manual, and then your arguments might begin to make sense. Where is controlling immersion in the Khala “definitely a crime”? Obviously the Judicator don’t feel the same compassion as Tassadar. What if a doctor is treating a patient in severe pain? The doctor can’t tone back his pain levels he’s getting from the patient? This is stupid. And again, your ridiculous fanon would not allow for any PvP.

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I cannot debate with you if you constantly misrepresent my argument.

The judicators are complete morons and Metzen contrived them as villains. Full stop. If I was writing fiction from their perspective, I could not justify them pulling the same shit they do in canon without writing them as literal retards. I can write sanctimonious, god knows I am sanctimonious myself, but I cannot write someone who is blatantly stupid and genre blind given my own education and experience with human psychology, politics and the world building of xenobiology.

If we want evil, stupid politicians, we already have humans. That their shtick. The entire shtick of the protoss is that their forced empathy network is supposed to get them past the problems humans face due to racism and sexism. It makes absolutely no sense that the judicators would act like the alt-right.

I actually tried to write a genocidal, arrogant judicator as a main character. Then the context kicked in. He did not exist in a vacuum: he had a childhood, family, peers, an empathy network that forced him to not be a racist sexist asshole or feel terrible embarrassment and guilt whenever he threw a tantrum. I wrote a character, not a caricature, so I ultimately founding myself sympathetic towards his views given that I had to devise all the justifications myself despite not sharing the same views.

I wrote his enemies with the same level of depth, so everyone was sympathetic and had reasonable justifications despite fighting each other. That is called good writing, and it is something that Blizzard seems incapable of. So I discount Blizzard fiction on principle.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

The protoss cannot create perfect duplicates. And even if they could only then is it "up for debate" whether it’s a “resurrection”. Everything in SC has been a copy.

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The canon is inconsistent garbage written by people who are somehow smart enough to understand C++ yet stupid enough not to understand basic concepts like good writing, cause and effect, critical thinking, blah blah blah.

I have read enough philosophical debates and cyberpunk fiction that I do not care about the philosophy and I do not expect people living it out to care. The Khala lets you speak with and resurrect the dead, as well as clone people who are still alive. This is not a matter of philosophy, this is a practical application of their technology which should render their society unrecognizable from our own. The protoss should be treating resurrection with the same (lack of) respect as we treat contraception and gay marriage.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Also, go replay LoTV because I don’t think you get the Purifier arc. The clones were not tortured, they were treated as tools/slaves who would continue doing what their source personalities did in life, and then shut down after the Conclave found out that wasn't going to work. Comparing this to the black mirror episode is nonsensical. Nothing like that happened.

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Again, you completely misread everything I said. I said the purifier arc was garbage because it relies on everyone acting like idiots, and that Black Mirror had a much more sensible take on the same concept that did not require everyone to act like idiots.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

So far all you’ve demonstrated is that you don’t understand canon. I say go back and play it again.

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I refuse to play that garbage. It makes me physically ill.

There are so many contradictions in canon that I simply cannot take the franchise the least bit seriously. It is a clusterfuck of stupid from beginning to end.

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

I know some of the things in Starcraft are a little silly, but I like to speculate how these stories played out. When considering the Purifiers, you see an abused and boring trope. I like to wonder how they got to this point. Remember, there are no new stories under the sun, its all about execution and how you arrive at your solutions.

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Starcraft has terrible execution. The narrative falls apart under even the most cursory examination. Cause and effect literally does not exist in Starcraft. Events never happen because of cause and effect, but because the author says so regardless of the circumstances or whether it contradicts past or future events. There is no logic anywhere.

Starcraft cannot maintain consistency for even the most basic and forgettable of details. One source says it is impossible to communicate with zerg, another says it is possible but painful, a third says it is trivially easy. One source says that modifying genetics destroys psionics, we get multiple examples that contradict. One source says that humans are incompatible with infestation, we get multiple examples that contradict. One source claims that xel'naga are omnipotent immortal space gods, we get many examples that contradict this.

Since Starcraft canon is literally irrational and the writers clearly don't give a damn about logic or believably, I can say whatever the heck I want about it and be true. I prefer to simply rely on logic, because logic is amazing.

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The judicators are way too stupid to make sense. I would expect that behavior from USA politicians because humans are not connected to an empathy network, but if the judicators are connected to an empathy network which forms the foundation of their civilization, their constant obvious stupidity really should not happen. The writing contrives to make them look like bumbling morons rather than giving them any nuance or believable justification.

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The wiki page states the following:

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The depth of the link varied according to personal choice. Generally it was difficult to be fully immersed in a state of unity all the time. Members of the Templar and Judicator Castes immersed themselves deeply several times per day, along with many Khalai, "nourishing" themselves through the rich contact and emerging refreshed and invigorated.[3] The linkage provided by the Khala was not just mental, but emotional as well, and as a result, Khalai found it difficult (though not impossible) to hate one another.[18] The nectar of the plant alavash was often used to strengthen a protoss's connection to the Khala.[19]

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So lore does state that Protoss can feel each others but also that this is not something that is happening at all time and it is also something that happens at different levels and can be controlled.

In any case, it's not because you know how a person feel that you can't hurt that person. If you want an example, since you watched Black Mirror, it's like that doctor that gets off on the pain of others. In the case of the judicators, it's just a question of traditions. They are so stuck in their belief system that even feeling the pain of others doesn't stop them from making decision that will result in more pain. I wouldn't necessarily call that stupidity. Different morale is more like it. They believe they are doing the right thing even if, by other standards, it is clearly wrong.

Regarding the purifiers, you seem to think that the copies are coming from the Khala but that is not the case as far as I know. From the wiki:

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Khalai "entered" the Khala upon death but did not remain as complete or coherent entities.[3] Their last thoughts were automatically gained by protoss in close proximity to the deceased.[23] Rather, the Khala contained "resonances" of deceased Khalai, that remain long after the respective protoss's death.[24]

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We can infer from this that the process to make a purifier/copy requires a living Protoss. The objective of the purifier program was not to create tech like in Altered Carbon where you digitize your mind and can upload it to new bodies or in the cloud or whatever. The objective was to create weapons. It is possible that, even if they could create Altered Carbon tech, they wouldn't use it simply because of the Khala religion. There's already a sort of after-life for this race and they pride themselves in their death through battle.. so it makes total sense that they wouldn't want such a technology.

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The canon is inconsistent garbage written by people who are somehow smart enough to understand C++ yet stupid enough not to understand basic concepts like good writing, cause and effect, critical thinking, blah blah blah.

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I prefer to simply rely on logic, because logic is amazing.

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Nah dude, if you'd use logic, you'd know that it's a logical fallacy to claim that if someone is good at something "complex", then that person must be good at something that you claim is less complex. And anyways, Metzen doesn't code as far as I know which I guess would make him look even worse in your eyes since that would mean he's incompetent at his own claimed expertise.. But anyways, you get too emotional about this, relax.

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

The judicators are complete morons and Metzen contrived them as villains. Full stop.

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Not really considering they apologize to the player and join his side during the last SC mission.

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If we want evil, stupid politicians, we already have humans. That their shtick.

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No. You haven't demonstrated that at all and only came to this conclusion because you have erroneous assumptions about how the khala works. Prove that it works the way you say it does, or just quit talking about it.

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I have read enough philosophical debates and cyberpunk fiction that I do not care about the philosophy and I do not expect people living it out to care. The Khala lets you speak with and resurrect the dead, as well as clone people who are still alive. This is not a matter of philosophy, this is a practical application of their technology which should render their society unrecognizable from our own. The protoss should be treating resurrection with the same (lack of) respect as we treat contraception and gay marriage.

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You basically start every debate with a preconceived flawed notion of how things "should" be and get annoyed when that's not how it works in StarCraft. Go away.

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Again, you completely misread everything I said. I said the purifier arc was garbage because it relies on everyone acting like idiots, and that Black Mirror had a much more sensible take on the same concept that did not require everyone to act like idiots.

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Except you've utterly failed to demonstrate how given that your whole premise was based on some rampant bullshit about them literally resurrecting their dead. Like, what the hell are you even talking about? Did you actually play the game? The black mirror episode didn't make that much sense as we just established. Nobody is going to let one of their clones get tortured. <_<

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I refuse to play that garbage. It makes me physically ill.

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Yeah, well you need to. You seem to be confused on a lot of topics in canon. I don't know what it is, but your reading comprehension skills cannot be this bad.

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Since Starcraft canon is literally irrational and the writers clearly don't give a damn about logic or believably, I can say whatever the heck I want about it and be true. I prefer to simply rely on logic, because logic is amazing.

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You're delusional. If you applied even some basic logic we wouldn't be having these drawn-out debates. Most of your points just basically boil down to whiny nonsense:

Abusing AIs in black mirror makes sense and is the paragon of good writing.
Abusing AIs in StarCraft doesn't make sense and is the paragon of crap writing.

Great "logic". I'm really frickin' impressed. All you've proven is you're insanely biased.

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Originally Posted by sandwich_bird

The wiki page states the following:

So lore does state that Protoss can feel each others but also that this is not something that is happening at all time and it is also something that happens at different levels and can be controlled.

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But Sandwich, Mags want to criticize the SC2 lore while simultaneously not taking the SC2 lore/retcons into account. Quoting facts from the wiki makes that kinda hard, don't you think? :P

Kinda wondering why Misla is a "fan" of Starcraft at all.

I feel like he wants a backdrop for his own fiction -- which isn't a bad thing. A genocidal judicator? What's this about?

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Originally Posted by sandwich_bird

The wiki page states the following:

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The wiki is full of unlabeled retcons and other inconsistencies. The most consistent source we have is the original manual.

Also the statement about them being nourished and refreshed by the khala contradicts them being photosynthetic. Them being photosynthetic contradicts the statement that tribal bloodlines have different skin tones, as photosynthesis requires a specific color which varies according to the local light source.

Honestly, I think them being literally nourished by the psychic internet is far more interesting and evocative than unscientific photosynthesis. I have been having loads of fun imagining what Khala withdrawal is like.

See... I have been thinking about the nature of the khala, specifically the short range pack communication. I believe that during the nadir of the Aeon that the pack-range khala still existed, but the long-range khala did not. Khas reintroduced the long-range khala, which requires things like psi-link spires to allow inter-tribal communications. Yadda yadda. Anyway, the tal'darim do not have even this due to their consumption of sundrop. In fact, tal'darim need to continually consume sundrop or their khala sense will develop and this is a bad thing. See, the khala sense provided by the nerve cords is supposed to receive signals from other nearby protoss, so isolating a protoss will cause them to go insane due to sensory deprivation solitary confinement mumbo jumbo. The only way to prevent this is by consuming sundrop. Both the nerazim and tal'darim are actually practicing an unnatural culture rather than preserving the culture of their ancestors, leading to them acting much more like humans than protoss.

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Originally Posted by sandwich_bird

So lore does state that Protoss can feel each others but also that this is not something that is happening at all time and it is also something that happens at different levels and can be controlled.

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Ignoring retcons, I would think this was implied when the original manual stated the protoss studied "meta-neural" sciences and turned off the proto-khala. That does not mean the Sargas use those methods (i.e. something like sundrop, not alavash), as there would most likely be laws against trying to break from the khala. Therefore, the Sargas might use some other means to protect their culture and I would be fascinated by an exploration of that.

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Originally Posted by sandwich_bird

In any case, it's not because you know how a person feel that you can't hurt that person. If you want an example, since you watched Black Mirror, it's like that doctor that gets off on the pain of others. In the case of the judicators, it's just a question of traditions. They are so stuck in their belief system that even feeling the pain of others doesn't stop them from making decision that will result in more pain. I wouldn't necessarily call that stupidity. Different morale is more like it. They believe they are doing the right thing even if, by other standards, it is clearly wrong.

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You would not know that from playing Starcraft, since it does nothing to make the judicator sympathetic or believable. The narrative contrives to make them into caricatures. That is precisely the sort of stuff I wrote about when I tried to make the judicators look sympathetic and of at least average intelligence.

See, Episode 3 did nothing to make Aldaris' actions look remotely sane. When I had to explain their motivations and make their Nazi-esque pogrom look justifiable, I basically wrote that during the Aeon of Strife the protoss were so advanced and immoral that they used their god-like power to turn the hell of their ancient religions into reality. In hell, nobody could ever die or stop suffering even if their body was atomized. In my world, Aldaris thinks it is justified to commit genocide because he fears the nerazim will literally send his people to hell. While we the audience know his fears are unfounded concerning the nerazim, we now know that the ancient protoss were advanced enough to create hell itself and that the tal'darim would probably be happy to bring it back.

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Originally Posted by sandwich_bird

Regarding the purifiers, you seem to think that the copies are coming from the Khala but that is not the case as far as I know. From the wiki:

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Again, canon is full of retcons and other inconsistencies. I have read a lot of cyberpunk and I can conclude that there is no logical reason why the protoss cannot use their technology to create an afterlife. They have advanced computers and easy neural interfaces, so there is no reason why they cannot regularly backup their personalities to iCloud and render death an inconvenience rather than a permanent end. In fact, they actually do that but misuse the technology.

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Originally Posted by sandwich_bird

We can infer from this that the process to make a purifier/copy requires a living Protoss. The objective of the purifier program was not to create tech like in Altered Carbon where you digitize your mind and can upload it to new bodies or in the cloud or whatever. The objective was to create weapons. It is possible that, even if they could create Altered Carbon tech, they wouldn't use it simply because of the Khala religion. There's already a sort of after-life for this race and they pride themselves in their death through battle.. so it makes total sense that they wouldn't want such a technology.

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I find your rebuttal a weak justification of the status quo. Starcraft is bland, banal, cliche and unbelievable. I prefer to explore something new, interesting, thought-provoking and believable.

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Originally Posted by sandwich_bird

Nah dude, if you'd use logic, you'd know that it's a logical fallacy to claim that if someone is good at something "complex", then that person must be good at something that you claim is less complex. And anyways, Metzen doesn't code as far as I know which I guess would make him look even worse in your eyes since that would mean he's incompetent at his own claimed expertise.. But anyways, you get too emotional about this, relax.

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Yes, I am terribly irrational.

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

Also the statement about them being nourished and refreshed by the khala contradicts them being photosynthetic.

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Again, how are your reading comprehension skills this bad? You really don't get that those two statements aren't talking about the same thing?

Immersing one's self in the khala may fulfill the same physiological needs as sleep. Maybe the meditative practice helps clear away adenosine, a natural byproduct of the brain's metabolism.

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

Kinda wondering why Misla is a "fan" of Starcraft at all.

I feel like he wants a backdrop for his own fiction -- which isn't a bad thing. A genocidal judicator? What's this about?

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He's here merely to point out the flaws, since even SC1 and BW had its share, though I feel he's pushing it too far.

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The wiki is full of unlabeled retcons and other inconsistencies. The most consistent source we have is the original manual.

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But Sandwich, Mags want to criticize the SC2 lore while simultaneously not taking the SC2 lore/retcons into account. Quoting facts from the wiki makes that kinda hard, don't you think? :P

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Righttttt, silly me :rolleyes:

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Also the statement about them being nourished and refreshed by the khala contradicts them being photosynthetic.

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There can be multiple ways to be nourished and refreshed. Not much of a hard contradiction.

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Honestly, I think them being literally nourished by the psychic internet is far more interesting and evocative than unscientific photosynthesis. I have been having loads of fun imagining what Khala withdrawal is like.

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I agree, I prefer this idea as well. I do think photosynthesis is unnecessary and just add problems.

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You would not know that from playing Starcraft, since it does nothing to make the judicator sympathetic or believable. The narrative contrives to make them into caricatures. That is precisely the sort of stuff I wrote about when I tried to make the judicators look sympathetic and of at least average intelligence.

See, Episode 3 did nothing to make Aldaris' actions look remotely sane. When I had to explain their motivations and make their Nazi-esque pogrom look justifiable, I basically wrote that during the Aeon of Strife the protoss were so advanced and immoral that they used their god-like power to turn the hell of their ancient religions into reality. In hell, nobody could ever die or stop suffering even if their body was atomized. In my world, Aldaris thinks it is justified to commit genocide because he fears the nerazim will literally send his people to hell. While we the audience know his fears are unfounded concerning the nerazim, we now know that the ancient protoss were advanced enough to create hell itself and that the tal'darim would probably be happy to bring it back.

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Good luck trying to insert all your justifications in ~15 lines of mission briefing. Can't really blame the writers here. The medium was far more limited and had other considerations as well.

Your fanon is kinda cool though.

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I find your rebuttal a weak justification of the status quo. Starcraft is bland, banal, cliche and unbelievable. I prefer to explore something new, interesting, thought-provoking and believable.

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How is it weak? Do you think it doesn't fit the lore or do you mean it's weak in the sense that you don't like it?

Starcraft can't be that bland to you if you come shitpost on a fan site. Otherwise, really don't know what you're doing here. You're sadomaso?

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Yes, I am terribly irrational.

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Honestly not sure if this is acceptance or sarcasm.

I am extremely bitter, I admit that. Starcraft had a great premise for a multimedia franchise in the manual but the games botched that premise in execution.

This all stems from one problem: that SC1 had a ridiculously cramped narrative that glossed over a galactic war and neatly severed all the plot threads introduced by the manual. You could have made a dozen games exploring the events occurring during Rebel Yell alone. Defeating the Overmind was the sort of thing you would save for the end of the franchise, not the beginning. So unsurprisingly the following games had nonsensical plots full of retcons and contrivances.

But this is the wrong thread to discuss that so I will stop myself now.

I mean, it definitely seems like you have narrative ideas for the universe. You could share your ideas for something like a parallel universe in which your story takes place, like Alternity. I wouldn't mind hearing more about this judicator of yours.

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

I am pretty sure the copy itself and everyone who interacts with it will contest this. A copy of a living person would be an identical twin.

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The impression that they're the same thing will potentially hold until they're told it's a copy... then doubt can start on both sides.

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

This all stems from one problem: that SC1 had a ridiculously cramped narrative that glossed over a galactic war and neatly severed all the plot threads introduced by the manual. You could have made a dozen games exploring the events occurring during Rebel Yell alone. Defeating the Overmind was the sort of thing you would save for the end of the franchise, not the beginning. So unsurprisingly the following games had nonsensical plots full of retcons and contrivances.

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I'd say the problem stems from you assuming that the first game at the time was always going to be successful enough to become a franchise. Back then, the developers sure would've liked the surety of knowing it would've gone gangbusters but they didn't, so they put everything on the table to get the best thing out at the time in case they don't get another chance and it shows. Sc1 is complete in that it had a setup, a story that continued from that premise and a well-paced and engaging plot that wrapped everything up neatly in the end, which is all one can really hope to get with any new IP. It didn't need to be continued and that's awesome if the game didn't do well. But... it did do well, so continuation/sequels were a no-brainer. "Luckily", they put in sequel-bait to justify churning out more.

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

I mean, it definitely seems like you have narrative ideas for the universe. You could share your ideas for something like a parallel universe in which your story takes place, like Alternity. I wouldn't mind hearing more about this judicator of yours.

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I made a thread for that already.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I'd say the problem stems from you assuming that the first game at the time was always going to be successful enough to become a franchise. Back then, the developers sure would've liked the surety of knowing it would've gone gangbusters but they didn't, so they put everything on the table to get the best thing out at the time in case they don't get another chance and it shows. Sc1 is complete in that it had a setup, a story that continued from that premise and a well-paced and engaging plot that wrapped everything up neatly in the end, which is all one can really hope to get with any new IP. It didn't need to be continued and that's awesome if the game didn't do well. But... it did do well, so continuation/sequels were a no-brainer. "Luckily", they put in sequel-bait to justify churning out more.

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That is precisely the problem. Starcraft was never intended to have sequels, so it suffered from a terrible case of sequelitis that turned it into an unrecognizable mess. It needs a reboot that does a better job with the original premise given by the manual. Which I made a thread about.

Hindsight is 20/20 and all that.

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

Starcraft was never intended to have sequels, so it suffered from a terrible case of sequelitis that turned it into an unrecognizable mess.

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Sequelitis isn't a direct consequence of the first iteration being complete in and of itself, it's a direct consequence of the first iteration being successful and the developers wanting to wring more money from that IP. Course, that's not to say that sequelitis is going to be a given for every successful first iteration.

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

It needs a reboot that does a better job with the original premise given by the manual.

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The expansion/sequels maybe but Sc1 doesn't really need it since the game is concordant with the manual at a basic level, it did well and it is fondly remembered - asking for even more consistent details and minutiae is a privilege that was yet to be earned nor expected at the time. No-one is really clamouring for a reboot of Sc1, except you.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

The expansion/sequels maybe but Sc1 doesn't really need it since the game is concordant with the manual at a basic level, it did well and it is fondly remembered - asking for even more consistent details and minutiae is a privilege that was yet to be earned nor expected at the time. No-one is really clamouring for a reboot of Sc1, except you.

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”At the time?” I don’t give a flying fuck. The franchise is shit now.

Nostalgia blinds your ability to appraise SC1. SC1 was a pretty piss poor implementation of the manual. Barely any of the factions explained in the manual showed up due to the ridiculous levels of shoehorning. So they were written out of the story going forward, and Metzen replaced them with shit.

There is no good way to continue the existing story since the writers constantly shot themselves in the foot. Among other things, the moral relativity and history that made the factions interesting and instigated an indefinite conflict is completely gone in favor of an absurd Disney ending. The UED would just be a rehash of Amon where everyone teams up to stop them just because, since Blizzard is terrible at writing. It cannot be salvaged.

It is best to reboot the franchise in order to remove all those obstacles to a decent, believable story driven by politics rather than writer fiat.

It’s obviously your favorite sci fi game since you spend all this time talking about it. You could be on some Warhammer forum, but nope. :p

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

”At the time?” I don’t give a flying fuck. The franchise is shit now.

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Then limit your criticism to what happened now rather than rely on presumption of past things as being some conspiratorial misdeed/ad hominem. You may sound a bit more credible if you do so.

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

Nostalgia blinds your ability to appraise SC1. SC1 was a pretty piss poor implementation of the manual.

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Oh, I bow to the authority of your forthrightness. You declare with such conviction that I am compelled to agree! :rolleyes:

Wait a sec, lemme have a go: "Your negative bias blinds your ability to appraise Sc1. Sc1 was an adequate implementation of the manual". Huh, who'd a thought that another opinion could be so easily countered by another opinion? Wowee :rolleyes::p:rolleyes::p

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

Barely any of the factions explained in the manual showed up due to the ridiculous levels of shoehorning. So they were written out of the story going forward, and Metzen replaced them with shit.

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Yeah, you don't seem to understand the core reason for fluff and world-building. It's not meant to be a signpost/checklist for things to occur in the story, it's to build the illusion of verisimilitude and complexity in what is ostensibly a small fictional universe. Homeworlds manual has a tonne of information on factions, history and lore that don't show up in the game either. Oh noes, this must mean there was some Machiavellian conspiracy to write that stuff out according to Misla logic. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

There is no good way to continue the existing story since the writers constantly shot themselves in the foot.

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I'm okay with that. Sc1 wasn't perfect and serviceable at the worst but I'm happy with what I got. I didn't really want the story to continue past BW nor did I think it needed it back then either. Sc2 ended up vindicating that opinion in the end. So, I guess that means there's no more Sc for me then. Boohoo.

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

It is best to reboot the franchise in order to remove all those obstacles to a decent, believable story driven by politics rather than writer fiat.

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Meh. Reboots are just another form in which sequelitis to take root. It's just an excuse to mine what nostalgia one has of an IP and to capitalise on an existing fan base in order to garner interest, attention and most of all, money. Also, all stories are driven by writer fiat. Some are just better at hiding it or using it to their advantage than others.