Printable View
It has its own wiki page.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragnarok
How is that really so different from my suggestion to retcon Ouros and Amon into cerebrates? I do not like Ouros or find him remotely interesting. I want the Overmind and cerebrates back. I want their culture explored like Unhappy Anchovy suggested over at spacebattles. Brood mothers are lame and boring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Sure, why not?Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
There is no obligation to include the fall of the Confederacy or the invasion of Aiur either. The Koprulu war could last an arbitrarily long period of time. Starcraft 1 kind of shot itself in the foot by resolving every plot thread it introduced, which is why every sequel is kind of lame. You could make a whole franchise about the Koprulu war alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by sandwich_bird
EDIT: Even the whole thing about dark templar killing cerebrates can be ignored because it is not foreshadowed in the manual. In fact, cerebrate immortality is not suggested either. They could be killed by normal means!
You mean what happened in the last BW terran mission? I felt the 3rd protoss mission used the DT killing strategy merely to force the player to build DTs. After all, the Overmind made it clear in SC1 that HE'S the one who does the reincarnating. The Cerebrates can't do it themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
It's to try something different than the cerebrates. Personally I felt Kerrigan shouldn't have used too much of herself as a template for the broodmothers. In all actuality I'm surprised none of them bothered to conspire against her (maybe that would have happened in the future had the events of WoL never happened)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
I wouldn't have made a game. I would have made a novel series.
...But, if we must make a game, I would have made it exactly like SC and BW, except that Aldaris would have a logical reason for not sending a transmission to Zeratul about the Matriarch, the second Terran missions would have been about Mengsk maintaining his rule/dealing with factions and infighting, and Raynor and Fenix would not have worked all that closely with Kerrigan for no reason.
I'm not doing anything. The game ultimately bills Ouros as the hero/good guy, to Amon's villain/bad guy. Kerrigan's "forced redemption" isn't possible without Ouros gifting her the power to kill the villain/bad guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragnarok
I was just commenting on the apparent retcon in WoL of the Overmind being the "good guy" (to Amon's "bad guy") being later retconned in LotV as Ouros actually being the "good guy" instead and that this can then later be retconned into Ouros being just another "bad guy".Quote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
As to those Xel'Naga being retconned into cerebrates, well, that takes another level of um... incredulity that the series cannot afford to sustain given that most of the retcons in Sc2 tipped us into BS territory already. If you're going to do that, we might as well retcon Raynor into being revealed as a time travelling, amnesiac, far-flung future Xel'Naga, too, while we're at it.
Ditto regarding Ouros. As to the Overmind and cerebrates coming back... eh, I did consider them coming back for a long time (I fanoned way back after when BW was released that the Overmind that died at Aiur wasn't technically the Overmind...) but the more I think about it the more I'm glad it didn't for various reasons. BW already had the neo-Overmind, so having it coming back again after that would just feel more like a repetitious "been there, done that" feel. It'd feel like a conceit for the sake of continuing something and relying on nostalgia to carry it - much like what Sc2 in its entirety ended up feeling like. Time for any actual continuation of Sc's story to die methinks. Stick to Enumerate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
Why are you expecting SC to be consistent? It is not and never has been consistent. The writers made things up as they went along.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragnarok
That's against the rules I listed. I specifically said no QoB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
The official games are a complete waste of the IP's potential: full of plot devices, deus ex machinas, retcons, plot holes, villains coming out of the woodwork, etc. I really do not understand why you would just ape them. Here, I'll give an example of what kind of story you could tell if you were starting from scratch without aping the plot of BW.
The setup given in the manual is that the zerg are invading humanity to use their psychic genes for developing weapons against the protoss. However, the protoss have tracked zerg deep space probes to the koprulu sector. Executor Tassadar incinerated Chau Sara, but his conscience forced him to withdraw. Now the Confederacy is dealing with the zerg infestation that is steadily approaching the heart of their space. There are also politics at play among all three races.
In addition to the Confederacy are the Umojans and Kel-Morians and rebels. The Kel-Morians have been all but annexed into a client state of the Confederacy, but the recent alien invasion gives them a chance to reclaim their power. The Umojans are secretly funding rebel activities against the Confederacy, and they want to make truce with the protoss to learn from them.
In the protoss, the tribes Ara and Akilae have come into conflict over how to deal with the terrans caught in the crossfire. The Ara, a judicator caste and "praetorian guard" tribe, sees no problem with exterminating them as collateral damage. The Akilae, a templar caste and "high templar command" tribe, wants to protect the terrans against the zerg. Meanwhile, the mysterious dark templar have probably followed the zerg probes as well, and they might involve themselves in the conflict for whatever reason.
In the Zerg, the broods have a unity but can still develop camaraderie, rivalry and other politics. Zasz of the Garm Brood is considered whiny and unstable by the other cerebrates, while Kagg of the Surtur Brood is blood crazed and needs to be restrained when not deployed.
I would stay away from the psi emitter plot, since it is overused and the logic behind it is questionable. While it makes sense that the zerg would investigate the source, they are doing so because they are searching for psychics to assimilate. If they discover they are being lured then they may refuse.
I would stay away from anything approaching infested terran leaders for the swarm. The zerg desire the terrans for use as weapons, not control nodes. Furthermore, the Overmind created the cerebrates in the form of giant brains. I assume there is a practical reason for this and that you cannot just ignore that in future installments to replace them with pack leaders, brood mothers or whatever.
Since cerebrates are not immortal and the Overmind is a bodiless entity, there is no deus ex machina that can defeat all the zerg at once. If a cerebrate is killed, then I presume its brood will just create a new one. However, given the existence of psychic warfare, I suppose it make sense that broods could be fractured from the swarm. Given what we already know about the Overmind uniting the zerg, I predict these fractured broods would develop their own separate Overminds or something along those lines.
All three races have their own motivations and conflicts. The terrans are dealing with civil strife and alien invasion. The zerg need to assimilate the terrans before the protoss destroy them and survive long enough to develop a force that can invade the protoss empire. The protoss are dealing with a debate over whether to save or exterminate the terrans in the process. The dark templar are out there, biding their time.
It is a sandbox setting which could really go anywhere.
The problem with that statement is that the cerebrates were never tried. They were teased during SC1 and given a suggestion of depth, with directives reflected in their personalities and broods, but ultimately killed off without fanfare. They proved ultimately irrelevant to the narrative, to the point where later retellings barely mention them if at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragnarok
The brood mothers are just as irrelevant to the narrative as the cerebrates. Unlike the cerebrates, however, they are never even hinted as having goals of their own, personalities of any depth, or broods that reflect their goals. Zagara and Niadra have absolutely no personality whatsoever and mindlessly obey the last directives given to them by Kerry without any critical thought. Abathur and Dehaka have more depth by comparison, equivalent to those of SC1 cerebrates/broods. Just think of it: the SC1 cerebrates were characters with just as much or more depth as Abathur and Dehaka.
The same may be said of the protoss tribes and castes. Aside from being mentioned in the lore, the tribes and castes never played a role in the narrative. The only sides that mattered were the Khalai, Nerazim and Tal'darim. Even then their cultures have been barely ever explored and the significance of the Khala is completely glossed over. Indeed, the khalai, nerazim and tal'darim are functionally equivalent to SC1 tribes. In SC1 each of tribes were explained to fall neatly into one of the three castes, each tribe aka "sect" had a unique skin tone, and each tribe had their own culture which was variably integrated into the khala. Just think of it: in SC1 the protoss had numerous tribes, each of which had the same or more depth as just one of the SC2 factions.
Starcraft is just full of wasted potential like this.
That does not really explain why he explicitly called the Overmind courageous, even though the Overmind wanted to eat everyone. We know the Overmind wanted to eat everyone because that is exactly what the primal zerg do for a living, and there is no reason to believe the Overmind would behave any differently. If Ouros was a cerebrate who served the Overmind, slipping up and calling it courageous while pretending to be Tassadar's ghost makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Why not do the reverse and retcon the Overmind into a xel'naga? I mean, the official story goes that Amon created the Overmind to control the zerg, but we are never told exactly how this was done. Maybe Amon took another xel'naga and turned him into the Overmind. Maybe he took a group of xel'naga and turned them into the cerebrates, which explains why the xel'naga (and, for that matter, void thrashers) look like giant squid worm things similar how one might imagine the cerebrates based on their initial description alone. It is a way to bridge the gap between the retcons without (completely) alienating people only familiar with SC2's explanation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
BW never actually did anything with the neo-Overmind: it was just a plot device, not a character. In fact, most of SC's plot boils down to the stupidest, most wasteful implementation of ideas that sound interesting on paper and probably would have been interesting in the hands of a better writer than Metzen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
The problem with continuations, reboots, retools, etc is that the fans cannot agree and whatever does happens will alienate people.
Reboot: Almost nobody is interested in a reboot to make the franchise more consistent, even though that happens in comics and movies all the time. Enumerate is not the only possibility, but it's the only suggestion that has its own fluff bible. You, me and Gradius are the only people who have ever spoken of it positively. Everyone else is butthurt that Kerry is not the main character. Unless other people are interested in supporting me, I do not have any incentive to put the effort into telling my own story.
Brood War 2: There is no chance in hell that Blizzard will write an alternate universe that continues from BW while ignoring SC2. The way that World of Warcraft raped the lore of Warcraft is clear proof of that. Even if they did in some alternate universe, it would end with Kerry killing everyone, or being killed by Duran, because BW ended on a downer note where she killed most of the protoss and terrans and rendered them unable to contribute to a sequel. Furthermore, there are already dozens of custom campaigns which do continue from BW. At least one of them is even written in the SC2 engine.
Starcraft 3: Continuing from SC2 is its own can of worms. Given Blizzard's past behavior, the official continuation (whether as SC3 or a new campaign for SC2) will be loaded with a new set of retcons that will alienate players of SC2 (while SC1 players will just shake their heads in exasperation that SC2 fans did not expect this). A continuation that did not introduce a bunch of extreme retcons would not have much to work with: all the factions are at peace (despite this being unrealistic and boring) and any attempts to create new conflict would feel forced (case in point: Niadra is a meat robot mindless following Kerry's last orders and the Defenders of Man are outright lunatics without a real goal). Even the custom campaigns that continued the story of SC2 have introduced new villains out of the woodwork: evil robots that can pretend to be people, the purifiers randomly turning genocidal, the Overmind coming back and dying again in the span of one or two missions, the tal'darim worshiping a new random space demon/witch-king/whatever, rogue brood mothers building armies of hybrids, primal zerg on other planets without explanation, independent tribes of protoss who were never enslaved by Amon, independent terran governments and zerg broods outside the Koprulu sector, and so forth.
And the good guy and bad guy are just POVs in the end. At the end of the day, whoever is left standing is considered the "hero." THAT is the final messageQuote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
And yet you complain so much about SC2's lack of consistency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
Mislag, you're going on too much about that. The Queen of Blades is not extraneous, no matter how much you claim she is. And you can't call the manual the only real canon.
Besides, I answered the question as accurately as possible. I like Starcraft as it is, SC2 aside.
Sure it does. "Tassadar", who was relating that anecdote, was actually Ouros all along... and Ouros is outed as using deception and lies to get what he wanted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
In essence, all the information/"revelations" about the Overmind prophecy and visions in WoL can be retconned (if not overtly retconned already) as just being one big lie/con perpetrated by Ouros.
Because this would be a very hard retcon - an actual change from what was clearly established in Sc2. Like it or not, Ouros and Amon are established as Xel'Naga. The Overmind is also not a Xel'Naga, but a specific creation of the Xel'Naga to fulfill some desire of theirs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
A large number of Sc2 retcons are additive in nature but feel hard because the implications of the retcon are far-reaching in that it changes how everything was to be interpreted back then. For example, the Overmind being a slave retcon is additive in nature with the justification of it being that it was never said to not be a slave and that it having free-will is an assumption. Obviously, this undermines the nature of Sc1's conflict but also, such a justification falls apart under closer scrutiny because there's no real metric to determine whether the nature of any character is what we assume them to be. If the Overmind is an actually unwitting slave just because it didn't say it wasn't, it can be justified then that any other character can be whatever else as well (ie: Raynor is actually a Xel'naga).
Using the same type of retcon just to "right the ship" and get it back to what the manual sort of implied in the first place does not necessarily make that retconning any better or different than the first time it was done. Two wrongs don't make a right - it's just more pointless and conceited retconning for the sake of moving it back to some other idealised position. All that does is further make the whole thing untenable and not worth following since things just keep on being changed at a whim.
I know, but bringing it back again in the hope it can be written "better" is just as conceited. I, too, would've liked more of the Overmind but bringing it back now for any reason would just reek of artifice and nostalgia pangs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
Like with sequelitis, the problem is that all these things are really just a form of marketing and prey on nostalgia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
Dial down the rhetoric about "how only Enumerate is Starcraft"/"that Starcraft is not Starcraft" and I'm sure most of us would gladly enjoy your take on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
No-one is (nor should be) expecting this. That's why we're fanoning and theorycrafting it here for fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
No-one really cares about scripted stories in games anymore. The Blizz that operates as a business with their games is much different now then it was then. It's the gameplay that attracts people and the money ultimately. The story is just an excuse for the gameplay but is not really necessary for the enjoyment of the game. I don't see a SC3 coming out not because lack of a quality story but because the RTS genre is kinda stagnant and niche compared to more easily accessible and enjoyable variants like MOBAs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
Not according to how Sc2 plays out. The game narrative is very clear in wanting you to believe that Raynor, Kerrigan and Artanis are good guys and that Mengsk and Amon are bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragnarok
I do. I apologize for my hypocrisy.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragnarok
Starcraft is called Starcraft, not Queen of Blades: the name implies it is about warcraft (the skill at crafting war, not the game series) among the stars. Blizzard chose to make QoB the main character of the franchise, sure, but the story could just as easily have gone in many other possible directions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
The manual is the earliest available version of the lore and certainly the least fantastical. It lacks many of the major plot points introduced in the games and contains many plot points that were discarded by the games. It has a huge amount of potential that was never explored. You can see examples of this in the licensed campaigns Insurrection and Retribution, which tell their own stories based on the lore introduced in the manual without relying on the plot points unique to Blizzard's campaigns.
You may like The Adventures of Raynor and Kerry (my brutally honest pet name for Blizzard's campaigns), but to treat that as the be-all-end-all of the franchise is a senseless waste of the IP's otherwise immense storytelling potential. The amount of power they personally wield within the setting is so absurd as to be unbelievable. Perhaps the most interesting stories in the expanded universe were the ones that did not involve Raynor and Kerry.
I didn't entirely see it that way from the HotS storyline, even before the critical receptionsQuote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
If you want to say SC2 had a more glaring inconsistency problem, that's fine. Again, I felt there were holes that the SC2 story didn't fill inQuote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
So what do you suppose Ouros' motivation as a villain would be?Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
This is Blizzard we are talking about. They use that exact type of retcon all the time, to the point where they had to release Warcraft Chronicles simply so that everybody would know what the heck was even going on because the lore had become so convoluted. Absolutely nothing is sacred to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
World of Warcraft plundered every scrap of lore the writers could find in order to add content. I fully expect that, with Metzen out of the picture, the next team of writers will plunder the lore in the exact same way when they aren't making stuff up. Seriously, World of Warcraft resurrected Teron Gorefiend, who wasn't seen since WC2, and brought in Garona, who wasn't seen since WC1.
It is not much of a stretch to predict that future installments will revive the factions and characters mentioned in the SC1 manual but discarded in the current games. SC2 introduced tons of plot devices that could do whatever the writers needed them to, if they did not outright retcon themselves yet again.
That did not stop Blizzard from bringing back loads of dead and obscure characters from the Warcraft RTS games for appearances in World of Warcraft. It did not stop them from forcing the Alliance/Horde conflict long past the point where it made any sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Using World of Warcraft as a metric, it makes perfect sense that Blizzard would bring back the Overmind and the Khala simply to force the original conflict back into place. It does not matter if it makes little sense in the context of previous storylines, they need a reason for everyone to fight again after SC2 ended in peace similarly to WC3.
SC2 pretty much has the same plot as WC3. The three sides which had previously been at war united to defeat the evil fourth faction, and then made peace with each other. In the very next installment, World of Warcraft (or Galaxy of Starcraft), they go right back to fighting the Alliance/Horde conflict that has not been relevant since WC2.
I really do not understand what you mean. Have I not been trying to do that for the past several months?Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
After my first thread bombed I made a different one and tried to be less bitter about the storytelling decline. I even allowed a Q&A option so that people could learn without bothering to read the resources I provided. People still complained about the changes and nobody was interested in reading or asking about it or contributing any original ideas. I am getting pretty sick of people telling me that the only real Starcraft is the adventures of QoB and nothing else is worth their consideration.
Should I make a new thread again and hope it works?
That sucks. The only reason I was interested was for the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Although that does not stop Blizzard from using SC for other genres, like MOBA, FPS, etc. Games Workshop has gotten tons of mileage from licensing Warhammer 40k for numerous different games. Total War: Warhammer proved immensely popular and profitable AFAIK.
I take some issue with this, its already not worth following since SC2 already retconned everything to death, honestly nothing really matters anymore, so even continuing "logically" from the already broken illogical SC2 is every bit as pointless and worthless as what Mislagnissa wants to do with the counter retcons.Quote:
"Using the same type of retcon just to "right the ship" and get it back to what the manual sort of implied in the first place does not necessarily make that retconning any better or different than the first time it was done. Two wrongs don't make a right - it's just more pointless and conceited retconning for the sake of moving it back to some other idealised position. All that does is further make the whole thing untenable and not worth following since things just keep on being changed at a whim."
We're basically at a point where I'd say "have at it" its now the wild west for SC.
I like this! its reminiscent of 1984 except the conflict isn't fake.Quote:
You should probably also add the rule that the status quo (that the 3 races are always equal and never gain a decisive advantage over the other) has to be maintained because otherwise it'd be too easily biased toward one's race preference.
Too much of the regular lore makes the Zerg OP and just turns them into regular baddies, while logically in that same story the Protoss would just exterminate planets from above which is equally as boring.
Having factions gain advantages every now and then, but sheer size of each faction makes these temporary. however, this could make the series dangerously close to 40K
I suppose that Sc can be thought of as the lite version of 40K anyway so I guess it couldn't hurt to borrow something more from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by KaiserStratosTygo
Speaking of 40k, it is always going to have its status quo maintained despite the (supposed) overwhelming threat and strength of each of the Imperiums enemies but it's kinda there to maintain the viability of the franchise. They can't just have it progress because otherwise it will upset people more (since it will mean discontinuing a race most likely) than if they just kept it static. The appeal of it is the setup/setting more than any one narrative. Starcraft is different, in that part of its appeal is the narrative/progression along with its setup, so we sort have to expect change to occur to make it worthwhile.
What kind of advantages you have in mind?Quote:
Originally Posted by KaiserStratosTygo
It's not to the point where anything goes, Stratos. Ok yes they can do that for SC3, but there's no evidence they'd do that. Last I checked in the history books, the wild west is devoid of laws.....Quote:
Originally Posted by KaiserStratosTygo
Haven't really thought that far nor feel motivated to consider it, honestly. If anything, I suppose it'd be some typical villain excuse like Amon's. I don't really care what it is, I'm just trying to derive what little amusement I can by seeing Ouros in that light.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
I know, that's why it's not worth following, even if they do retcon it back to the way it was prior to Sc1. It'd just be another obviously overwrought and vapid excuse akin to saying all the stuff that happened in was a dream (which they might as well just outright do since I wouldn't bat an eyelid either way). It's not worth investing time in something that has no foundation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
Not really, they could literally pull anything out to continue it. It doesn't have to regress back to the pre-Sc1 setup in order to continue. It's only but one way, but either way, they'd all just be an excuse to continue for the sake of continuing. Just say no to Sequelitis!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
That's because that's the only real Starcraft left to talk about, which is the point of this forum. That was already shat upon by Sc2, they don't need someone else to suggest Sc1 was really just shit as well. Also, there aren't many people here anymore because Sc2 pretty much killed any interest and motivation in the lore/story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
One can dream I suppose. Won't be holding my breath anytime soon though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
Not sure if you've misinterpreted what I wrote, but it seems to me like we're on the same page/saying the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by KaiserStratosTygo
I disagree with your assertion that it's the adventures of Raynor and Kerri. However, I'll back out of a debate in the interests of keeping this thread on track.Quote:
You may like The Adventures of Raynor and Kerry (my brutally honest pet name for Blizzard's campaigns), but to treat that as the be-all-end-all of the franchise is a senseless waste of the IP's otherwise immense storytelling potential. The amount of power they personally wield within the setting is so absurd as to be unbelievable. Perhaps the most interesting stories in the expanded universe were the ones that did not involve Raynor and Kerry.
Um, I think mainly that there's really no need to redo Starcraft. Just by choosing different characters and following a different story one can increase the depth of the world. And add more characters to the Zerg.
I thought SC1 was actually very good, at least during the rebel yell arc. It was only after that when things went into a very weird direction.
The context of the campaigns was only explained in the manual. If you did not have the manual, you would not understand the context. The official website circa 1998 also included some bonus materials, like the terrans studying the zerg for years, intercepting and translating protoss transmissions (who then spoke Latin phrases), and some foreshadowing that the terrans might try to strip mine worlds owned by the protoss. If the game were made today all of those details could be included in the game itself, which I am going to assume for the purpose of argument.
A key weakness of the story is that each race's POV is only told chronologically, despite key characters like Tassadar being present in the other campaigns. Key plot points either occur offscreen and are only mentioned, or relegated to deleted scenes. The characters are not really used effectively in the other campaigns. Much of this is due to the limited format at the time, as if SC1 came out today it would have side campaigns like SC2. So I am going to assume that the hypothetical modern SC1 had these side campaigns exploring Tassadar and Zeratul.
After Rebel Yell the plot goes off in a bizarre tangent. The most recent rendition of this was in the Queen of Blades novel, which I will assume is the story told (ignoring plot holes).
Anyhow, the Queen of Blades story arc is very different from the previous in narrative structure and even genre. Rebel Yell was fairly grounded military scifi with really warped morality, since the cast commits genocide twice with little to no remorse. The Queen of Blades arc is much more fantasical, as it introduces multiple plot devices. QoB herself is made out to be some kind of zerg messiah and the dark templar have a trump card to defeat the immortal zerg leaders. None of these things were suggested in the manual and feel closer to the fantasy genre.
I did not like that departure. I would have preferred the setting to remain grounded throughout.
Anyway, the single key narrative weakness of SC1 is that it introduces and resolves a galactic war over a single game. Hence, every single campaign features at least one plot device (psi emitter, queen o' blades, dark templar, tassadar's sacrifice) to speed things up even if the logic behind it is questionable at best. In a universe without plot devices, the war could provide material for a massive multimedia franchise.
That's why I liked Enumerate. It still uses some of the plot devices I criticized but it has a far larger scale and no mythic heroes. If you think my PR sucks, and I think it does, then please give me advice? How can I build interest in an alternate universe without QoB, UED and the return of the xel'naga?
That is not possible. Metzen's narrative invested Raynor and Kerry the power to rewrite the setting however they desired. You cannot tell a story about other characters without living in their shadow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Kerry killed off the zerg hierarchy and ruined any chance to explore the brood politics teased in the manual. The UED pointlessly contradicted the manual and reduced the Umojans and KMC to obscurity. The protoss were reduced to living on a single planet.
The BW continuity is vastly less expansive than the continuity teased by the manual. It kept shrinking. I dislike that.
That is why some of the most popular and creative custom campaigns take place outside Koprulu and ignore game canon.
Wait, I thought you weren't interested in the Xel'Naga EVER returning....Quote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
In Raynor's case it's necessary on the Protoss end, save for the Tal'darim. Rosemary Dahl specifically said that Raynor did well as an ambassadorQuote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
Start making campaign maps in that universe.Quote:
"How can I build interest in an alternate universe without QoB, UED and the return of the xel'naga?"
Course it's possible. The only enjoyment I've derived in terms of lore and story for Sc throughout the period of Sc2 were those independent short-stories that had nothing to do with either Raynor or Kerrigan. They followed their own characters and were really good in expanding the depth of the universe by showing us the viewpoint of other "little" people/characters and their (albeit lacking in scale compared to the main story, they were no less epic in terms of impact) tribulations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
To be contrarian yet fair, Rebel Yell is largely superfluous to the Sc1 story since it's about this insignificant group of Terrans who have no ultimate bearing on the more epic goings on of the Zerg Overmind and the high-mind and powerful Protoss. Despite it telling a decent story, one can ignore it really and be none the wiser - if it weren't for the Kerrigan connective tissue. Even if it weren't for Kerrigan - who is sidelined at the end of Overmind anyway - Rebel Yell has no real narrative value to the story of Sc1 beyond looking at one aspect of the Terrans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
I never liked or believed the former but I can believe the latter. The problem with the Confeds knowing too much about the Zerg sort of undermines how they are ultimately and completely caught unawares or be totally defeated by them (no less by someone who wasn't really sure about their true nature; Mengsk in Sc1 doesn't actually know that the Zerg are not a Confederate created superweapon for example). Sure, it's probably a needed retcon I suppose in order to boost the strength of the Terrans in the face of the opposition they're facing but the manual has always implied/suggested that the Terrans are weak compared to either Zerg or the Protoss and ignorant of their threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
The tension of Protoss and Terrans was hinted in the manual where the Protoss did show disdain at the Terrans predilection for strip-mining worlds and not taking care/responsibility afterward in contrast to their Dae'Uhl. Whether this would prompt eventual open hostilities by the Protoss would be another thing since the Dae'Uhl would technically prevent them from interfering overtly unless the Terrans were hostile first. This would be interesting since it would make the K sector Terrans the antagonist in this sense.
I wouldn't necessarily call this a weakness per se. I don't necessarily want to see one event from three perspectives because nothing really progresses and you'd know the outcome of the two other takes because of how the first one ends. This style tends to work when you have the sides do things from their own perspective and progressive chronologically at the same time from the start but then ultimately arrives to divergent outcomes at the end (sort of like how C&C stories tended to play out).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
I like how Sc1 take is from the POV of each different race but progresses through time normally. It gives a sense of a reality that is unfolding and that sometimes you don't know all the answers yet things continue on regardless. It makes sense that other stuff happens around the periphery without our knowledge because our POV is purposefully restricted to focus on the interests of that race we're following.
It also potentially allowed a status quo to sort of form, too. All 3 races have suffered enormous losses by the end of Sc1, so the potential of them being on more equal footing has never been closer than before. Then BW made the Zerg OP, the Protoss even more UP and the Terrans having miraculous comebacks from nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
Just keep on talking about the stuff you like. Just don't expect many people to respond - not because of lack of specific interest to your take but rather because this forum's a desert. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
And how is that turning out so far?Quote:
Originally Posted by KaiserStratosTygo
Those I plan to tie in for the future reckoning process (well, some of them)Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Writers can do anything they want. There's no real need to live any shadow. Actually, given what I've seen of the end of SC2, Kerri and Raynor are basically gone forever, and can be disregarded ala Decker and Ilia in Star Trek 1.Quote:
That is not possible. Metzen's narrative invested Raynor and Kerry the power to rewrite the setting however they desired. You cannot tell a story about other characters without living in their shadow.
Given the Zerg's desperate need for intelligent leadership, they'll probably generate up some DNA that they think will conjure up an intelligent creature. Granted, this probably won't work out for them so well, but there's plenty of storytelling opportunity there. The Terrans are overdo for factional mishaps, and the Protoss have stuff going on on their end. Probably SC has no RTS potential at this point (more to do with the lack of reason for the 'Toss to fight a massive war than anything else), but a Terran-focused story could work.
I don't know? i'm suggesting Mislagnissa do this..Quote:
Originally Posted by ragnarok
Sorry I'll just wait for his feedback then
That new leadership doesn't require new creature with DNA and whatnot. Since Evolution I always suspected there'd be more than just Abathur who'd oppose Zagara's notions for peace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaiserStratosTygo
I have been working on a map, but it is my first effort so I have to learn everything as a beginner. The SC1 engine does not really support in-game cutscenes, or at least I have not been able to get it to work in order to introduce plot points without doing something weird like making cutscene maps. I prefer writing fiction.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragnarok
As Turalyon already said, it probably has more to do with this forum not having many active members anymore and many of those remaining being apathetic or hostile to the idea.
You can definitely do cutscenes but you have to get "creative". I don't remember if you could stop all players inputs without pausing the game but what you can do is force the camera to stay in a specific position by putting the command in a while loop. So you do something like "while (events) is true, focus camera to cutscene location". That would prevent the player from looking somewhere else and then you can just temporarily change the faction of all units to a faction that the player does not control and that will prevent user inputs. It's a hacky way of having a cutscene system in sc1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
Why not just use sc2 though? sc1 editor is simpler but pretty much no one will play a map made in sc1 these days.
What's the map about so far?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mislagnissa
I had been using the pause function before but your suggestion completely slipped my mind. So thanks for that!Quote:
Originally Posted by sandwich_bird
I am leery of the SC2 editor because I heard it was even more complicated and idiosyncratic than SC1 editor from sources like Gradius. Unless I used a mod such as Mass Recall or Heptacraft, it would not readily support BW-style tech trees (especially with the patches). Although I was interested in using a mix of the BW and SC2 tech trees to show off the differences; most of the SC2 units could easily be justified in appearing before or during the Great War. if I understand right, in custom campaigns it is possible to use co-op commanders and warchest skins without having to purchase them.
I could probably give it a try at some point even if I had to read through many help documents to do fairly simple things.
What I really do not like about SC2 is that the protoss skin colors look too homogeneous. I would have to put filters on the textures to make them look more like they did in SC1 (green zealots, pale green carrier pilots, orange scout pilots, pallid arbiter pilots, etc). On the upside... I can put filters on the textures to make the protoss more ethnically diverse.
It is part of a short campaign exploring the last days of Mar Sara from a zerg POV. It references the events of Rebel Yell, Speed of Darkness and Revelations.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragnarok