Campaign Portraits

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

The SCII beta ran (no pun intended) with the idea that Zealots briefly assume an energy form during their dashes, and the animation reflected that. But it seems like they scaled back on that approach; now, it just seems as though it's cybernetic leg enhancements.

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Yeah I guess it depends on whether you consider all the old starcraft2.com information to be canon. It's been pulled, so this is probably not a thing anymore.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

My theory is the Protoss have specialized psionic organs for synthesizing nutrients out of pure energy and breaking down cellular waste. This would all be from XelNaga protogenetic manipulations and in the past they were more like normal creatures that ingested food. So when they merge into an archon they pretty much ramp up these organs into overdrive so that they can synthesize a new being by using the existing body as a resource. Then the zealot's charge ability is pretty much the same thing but only lasts a microsecond and just reforms the zealot into its original state.

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I like that version. Sounds cool and it makes sense.

I have a pretty big dislike for Aldaris remastered

https://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net...20170728141032

Everything else is pretty great though.

Don't really care much for Raynor too but its not as bad as Aldaris

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

Lifeforms need to consume energy and nutrients whether they are carbon based or not. Even robots require fuel and maintenance. Even plants have to consume dirt and air to get their needed nutrients; they need sunlight only to turn carbon dioxide and water into sugar.

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Keep in mind that I didn't doubt that Protoss need to consume nutrients/gain energy, just the means of how they do so. You were arguing for a specific way in which they consumed nutrients/gain energy (through a "mouth" orifice and via "eating") based on the assumption that the Protoss are like "life" as humans know of it. I'm saying that that's difficult to assume given that they are fictional alien beings who have been somewhat engineered through their evolution by other, higher order alien beings and can generate amazing powers from some nebulous energy source that may have its origins both external and internal to their bodies. Really, Grad's arguing along a similar line to what I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by NikoMyCousin

I have a pretty big dislike for Aldaris remastered

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Ugh. Me too. Then again, nothing screams "arsehole" more than having constant arched eyebrow ridges and poncy, glowing orbs around your head.

Well, Misalgnissa is right. As a matter of thermo dynamics, Gradius' theory wouldn't work; the energy input needed to form nutrients internally in that manner, as well as the waste disposal method, would easily exceed the energy gain.

... Again, if we're talking hard scifi.

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

Well, Misalgnissa is right. As a matter of thermo dynamics, Gradius' theory wouldn't work; the energy input needed to form nutrients internally in that manner, as well as the waste disposal method, would easily exceed the energy gain.

... Again, if we're talking hard scifi.

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How so? The energy of the Khala/Void (which is huge) is being converted to matter, and the cellular waste (matter) is being converted to energy so you have somewhat of an equilibrium. Then the manual says that the protoss are such powerful psychics that they inadvertently send out psychic ripples which can damage other lifeforms, so they'd have to have even more energy left over that their body needs to radiate out.

But yeah, if we're talking hard sci fi, living tissue organs by themselves can't conjure up that kind of energy, but starships also have nowhere near the energy to move faster than light, among a bunch of other things in StarCraft.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Keep in mind that I didn't doubt that Protoss need to consume nutrients/gain energy, just the means of how they do so. You were arguing for a specific way in which they consumed nutrients/gain energy (through a "mouth" orifice and via "eating") based on the assumption that the Protoss are like "life" as humans know of it. I'm saying that that's difficult to assume given that they are fictional alien beings who have been somewhat engineered through their evolution by other, higher order alien beings and can generate amazing powers from some nebulous energy source that may have its origins both external and internal to their bodies. Really, Grad's arguing along a similar line to what I'm saying.

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You’re right, I wasn’t thinking alien enough.

Even so, the xel’naga haven’t otherwise been shown to so completely alter the basic body plan of their experiments. When they experimented on the original Zerg parasites, they didn’t alter the zerg into being physically unrecognizable. In fact, they were surprised when the Zerg developed this capability all by themselves. The fact that the xel'naga had to search for organisms meeting their vague prerequisites would suggest that they cannot make such radical alterations in the body plan.

If Protoss always ate through their skin (which seems to be sufficiently alien, right?), this would suggest that was normal for whatever order of animals the Protoss evolved from (carnivorous plant/animal symbiotes?). Aiur seems to be inhabited by Terran black panthers that explode into blue flames upon death, but the art in SC1 wasn’t terribly consistent to begin with and they aren’t descended from plants AFAIK.

The LotV Field Manual claims they have no orifices at all, three hearts (but not other organs?), and that all perception, breathing, eating and excreting is done through the skin. This despite eye sockets counting as orifices, portraits showing their chests rising/falling as though breathing (even wearing gas masks), and wearing any clothing would be impractical.

I can accept Protoss using their skin as a digestive system (without any psychic shenanigans), but not as a respiratory system, a sensory system and photovoltaic array too.

They should have spiracles/gills in their chins/cheeks and lungs, and these almost certainly play a role in body language if the dark Templar veils are anything to go on (also, expressionless faces are just plain boring and my entire problem with SC2 portraits). They should have their visual, auditory and psychic sensory organs concentrated in their heads rather than somewhere obscured by clothing or armor. They should gain energy and nourishment from external sources, which they eat and poop using their skin (maybe the scales are teeth? IDK).

Maybe they use specific parts for entry and exit to maximize efficiency. For example, eating with the palms or pooping from the anterior of the torso.

The fiery death has so many retcons associated with it that I cannot determine whether it’s artistic license or not. Maybe, like humans, protoss leave remains in various states of intactness ranging from ashes to complete corpses. The flames might be the result of a chemical reaction rather than purely psychic (but Protoss certainly augment their physiology with their psychic powers).

A bit off-topic but after reading those last posts, I'm unclear on 2 things regarding the current lore with the post-sc2 retcons:

-The XN in vanilla where described as nomad scientists of sorts right? But with the retcons, I don't understand who/what modified the protoss and the zerg or if this even happened at all. My understanding was that everything that was previously referenced as XN work (the re-engineering, temples, etc) were now Amon's agents(Duran's specie? or is he a XN too?) work. So I guess what I'm asking is, what's the short version of what happened during the XN "era" following the retcons?(the timeframe when the zerg and protoss came to be)

-The fiery death thing. I thought Protoss were being teleported out of battle and that's what was causing the blue flame effect. Was that retconned or was that always wrong?

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Originally Posted by sandwich_bird

A bit off-topic but after reading those last posts, I'm unclear on 2 things regarding the current lore with the post-sc2 retcons:


-The fiery death thing. I thought Protoss were being teleported out of battle and that's what was causing the blue flame effect. Was that retconned or was that always wrong?

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In SC1, the Bengalass (a critter on Aiur) would do the firey death thing whenever it died (also had yellow glowing eyes like the Protoss) I wonder if that implied the firey death thing was biological and perhaps even a "soul" of sorts. The teleportation retcon only came with SC1, so I genuinely think, especially when we factor in the High Templar death animation having him float into the sky, that they kind of meant it in a spirtual way.

That's one of the things I really liked about the original Starcraft, it can pull off stuff like that while still keeping a pr

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I can accept Protoss using their skin as a digestive system (without any psychic shenanigans), but not as a respiratory system, a sensory system and photovoltaic array too.

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Why not? Plenty of animals function this way. Sharks rely on electroreception; hag fish ingest nutrients via their skin; and frogs hear through tympani.

With regard to respiration, I've come to view the buccal ridges as being involved. Which makes me wonder what sort of function the mandibular protuberances serve, aside from being a secondary sexual characteristic among males. (There's pronouced dimorphism between the sexes; females clearly display neotenous characteristics through their smoother skin. So it's possible the "horns" on some males serve no other function at all. The golden chin cap is a clear reference to ancient egyptian culture, and being equivalent to a beard.)

http://i.imgur.com/25MGXh8.jpg

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I could totally get behind the idea that the Protoss skulls are jawless but keep their mouths and trachea in roughly the same place.

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I just realized you referenced my artwork! Eee!

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Originally Posted by sandwich_bird

The XN in vanilla where described as nomad scientists of sorts right? But with the retcons, I don't understand who/what modified the protoss and the zerg or if this even happened at all. My understanding was that everything that was previously referenced as XN work (the re-engineering, temples, etc) were now Amon's agents(Duran's specie? or is he a XN too?) work. So I guess what I'm asking is, what's the short version of what happened during the XN "era" following the retcons?(the timeframe when the zerg and protoss came to be)

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My guess is that events still turned out exactly as they did, it's just that the initial motivation behind them, as shown in the manual, are "revealed" as being unreliable. So all the stuff in the manual about the Xe'Naga being benevolent and harmless scientists just doing experiments, all the stuff about the purities; it's all bunk. It was all really part of Amon's plan to twist the Protoss into whatever version he wanted them as.

In WoL, the reason given for why he uplifts the Protoss and Zerg is that he wants to use them to remake the universe in his own image. But in LotV, it's clear he really just wants to destroy anything to do with the cycle and Xel'Naga. This confuses things even more because why would Amon even bother nurturing them in any capacity at all in the first place? He had full and direct control over both the Protoss and Zerg evolution from their very beginnings afterall. If he really wanted to extinguish them, he could've done so right from the start... instead he makes it harder for himself and creates a situation where he can and does eventually fail. What an idiot.

We know Amon's motivations for uplifting the Protoss and zerg -- to be used as cats' paws -- but the bulk of his followers may simply have been deceived as to their mission. Perhaps the accompanying xel'naga believed in a less chaotic, more controlled Cycle, with only Amon and Narud being aware of their true purpose.

We really need a novel to bring these elements of pre- history in line. A lot of interesting politics could have been going on. I vote for Greg Bear as author, he did a good job with the Forerunner trilogy.

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

Why not? Plenty of animals function this way. Sharks rely on electroreception; hag fish ingest nutrients via their skin; and frogs hear through tympani.

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The shark's electroreceptors are located in pits in its snout, the frog's tympani on the sides of its head. The hagfish marinates itself in decomposing corpses and is physically fragile. Adaptations in nature always have tradeoffs because there is always a limited amount of energy available; this includes adaptations that increase energy intake.

That's why zerg are trying to create the ultimate lifeform. They have to produce separate strains for every imaginable purpose to maximize efficiency. A god would just warp reality around it.

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

We know Amon's motivations for uplifting the Protoss and zerg -- to be used as cats' paws -- but the bulk of his followers may simply have been deceived as to their mission. Perhaps the accompanying xel'naga believed in a less chaotic, more controlled Cycle, with only Amon and Narud being aware of their true purpose.

We really need a novel to being these elements of pre- history in line. A lot of interesting politics could have been going on.

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I always found the UED and Amon plots a poorly written diversion from the conflicts set up in Episodes I-III. We don't need new big bad villains to come out of the woodwork, we need to work with what we already had.

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

The shark's electroreceptors are located in pits in its snout, the frog's tympani on the sides of its head. The hagfish marinates itself in decomposing corpses and is physically fragile. Adaptations in nature always have tradeoffs because there is always a limited amount of energy available; this includes adaptations that increase energy intake.

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Right. And it would seem as though the protoss have somehow side stepped this energy barrier, or at least maximized the efficiency of energy production and energy use.

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That's why zerg are trying to create the ultimate lifeform. They have to produce separate strains for every imaginable purpose to maximize efficiency. A god would just warp reality around it.

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Right. The zerg conform to their surroundings, while the protoss manipulate their own. Though old canon started the Dark Templar modified their own biology to adapt to Shakuras. I wonder if that still holds true in Blizzard's books.

The Xel' naga can do both, completely changing their physical form as well as warping the physical world around themselves.

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

The Xel' naga can do both, completely changing their physical form as well as warping the physical world around themselves.

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Mind = blown.

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

Right. And it would seem as though the protoss have somehow side stepped this energy barrier, or at least maximized the efficiency of energy production and energy use.

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Using their entire skin surface for breathing, eating, hearing, pooping, etc as the Field Manual claims is horribly impractical because all that surface area simply isn't necessary to perform those functions and will actually make them more difficult.

We see Protoss wearing gas masks and and their chests rising and falling, as though they have lungs. Saying they breath with their skin is technically true if by "skin" you mean a specialized surface on their seemingly pointless chins, which sounds a lot like spiracles to me. Page 243 of the StarCraft Archive anthology writes that they have muscles in their face and chin which move in response to emotion, even if SC2 ignores that.

Eating with their skin requires them to either marinate in pools of food (how they digest it I don't know) or to use specific sections of skin to do so, such as grabbing a fruit and eating it with the palm skin rather than spending time rubbing a fruit slice all over the torso. The same applies to pooping, because you really don't want to be covered in your own excrement.

Sensing with their entire skin surface is impractical because it would be blocked or horribly aggravated by wearing clothes, unless that sensory skin is concentrated in an uncovered area like the head (which already has eyes).

I love speculative biology projects. I'm not adverse to the Protoss having very strangely arranged anatomy, but I take issue when that biology is clearly being described by people (Blizzard) who have no idea what they're talking about and keep changing their minds about everything. The Field Manual literally labels Protoss basic anatomy "space magic." Psychic powers and mutalisk flight are already weird enough, we don't need literal logic-defying magic too.

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

Right. The zerg conform to their surroundings, while the protoss manipulate their own. Though old canon started the Dark Templar modified their own biology to adapt to Shakuras. I wonder if that still holds true in Blizzard's books.

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In the SC1 manual the Protoss were explained as adaptable to a variety of conditions. The xel'naga were interested in the Protoss because they were the apex of physical fitness: strong, fast, apex predators, adaptable to a variety of adverse conditions. SC2 retconned that and hit the Protoss with a nerfbat. Where before they seemed perfectly fine walking naked in ice fields or deserts in search of prey, now they have to wear animal furs and genetically alter themselves to survive anywhere. Their technological development before the Aeon of Strife was retconned away and attributed to xel'naga.

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

The Xel' naga can do both, completely changing their physical form as well as warping the physical world around themselves.

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That's a SC2 retcon. The SC1 manual xel'naga were very mortal nerds who could be killed by their own creations. The protoss had superior weapons and the zerg had superior numbers.

The whole directive of the Zerg is to complete and surpass the xel'nagas' grand experiment. They ate the xel'naga and have since matched and surpassed their creators. They want to assimilate the protoss so they can create purity of form (archons?) and combine it with their purity of essence to create the ultimate lifeform.

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

I always found the UED and Amon plots a poorly written diversion from the conflicts set up in Episodes I-III. We don't need new big bad villains to come out of the woodwork, we need to work with what we already had.

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Amon's plot was because Blizzard wanted a way to bring the Xel'Naga in. Long before SC2 was written, many had argued that this could have been done by simply putting the Xel'Naga in flashbacks.

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

That's a SC2 retcon. The SC1 manual xel'naga were very mortal nerds who could be killed by their own creations. The protoss had superior weapons and the zerg had superior numbers.

The whole directive of the Zerg is to complete and surpass the xel'nagas' grand experiment. They ate the xel'naga and have since matched and surpassed their creators. They want to assimilate the protoss so they can create purity of form (archons?) and combine it with their purity of essence to create the ultimate lifeform.

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Zeratul said the Overmind came to Aiur to finish the Xel'Naga's experiments. Nothing was said about surpassing it all. And the Overmind said nothing about creating the ultimate lifeform. It merely thought that this would make the swarm perfect. Makes you really wonder did it actually know what would REALLY happen if it had won on Aiur...

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

My guess is that events still turned out exactly as they did, it's just that the initial motivation behind them, as shown in the manual, are "revealed" as being unreliable. So all the stuff in the manual about the Xe'Naga being benevolent and harmless scientists just doing experiments, all the stuff about the purities; it's all bunk. It was all really part of Amon's plan to twist the Protoss into whatever version he wanted them as.

In WoL, the reason given for why he uplifts the Protoss and Zerg is that he wants to use them to remake the universe in his own image. But in LotV, it's clear he really just wants to destroy anything to do with the cycle and Xel'Naga. This confuses things even more because why would Amon even bother nurturing them in any capacity at all in the first place? He had full and direct control over both the Protoss and Zerg evolution from their very beginnings afterall. If he really wanted to extinguish them, he could've done so right from the start... instead he makes it harder for himself and creates a situation where he can and does eventually fail. What an idiot.

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I guess if they follow the same events, the only thing you'd have to remove are the parts about the zergs killing the XN hovering above Char because I can't see how SC2 version of XN, which are god like creatures, could get destroyed by zergs.

But yeah, Amon's plan makes no sense. The cycle "ascendancy" thing makes no sense either. How are 2 races supposed to "come together" to Ulnar and then become XN? By "coming together" do they mean literally merging? If so then this is exactly what Amon did by creating the hybrids so why the hell would he do that as you say? And anyways, if his aim is to destroy the cycle, didn't he accomplish that by murdering the other XN? If they can't pass on their XN magic powers to 2 new races because they're dead well the cycle is pretty much broken. And if that's the case, why keep Ouros alive in the first place? Just kill him too with the others lol. And what the hell does "remaking the world to his image" means specifically? There's just so much abstraction in SC2 lore that it makes the story very confusing; in a very bad way.

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Originally Posted by sandwich_bird

But yeah, Amon's plan makes no sense. The cycle "ascendancy" thing makes no sense either. How are 2 races supposed to "come together" to Ulnar and then become XN? By "coming together" do they mean literally merging? If so then this is exactly what Amon did by creating the hybrids so why the hell would he do that as you say? And anyways, if his aim is to destroy the cycle, didn't he accomplish that by murdering the other XN? If they can't pass on their XN magic powers to 2 new races because they're dead well the cycle is pretty much broken. And if that's the case, why keep Ouros alive in the first place? Just kill him too with the others lol. And what the hell does "remaking the world to his image" means specifically? There's just so much abstraction in SC2 lore that it makes the story very confusing; in a very bad way.

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The whole coming together was never explained, it's a little like merging, but certainly not the DNA recombination process like the hybrids. As for the destroying the cycle, I bet Blizzard will explain this later on by saying the Void can eventually give life to other Xel'Naga anyway, so Amon's actions in remaking the universe would bar them from entering, therefore they can't put the cycle into the multiverse anymore.

Otherwise, if that's not the meaning of the whole remaking everything, it's just a cheap excuse for a nihilistic villain

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

I love speculative biology projects. I'm not adverse to the Protoss having very strangely arranged anatomy, but I take issue when that biology is clearly being described by people (Blizzard) who have no idea what they're talking about and keep changing their minds about everything. The Field Manual literally labels Protoss basic anatomy "space magic." Psychic powers and mutalisk flight are already weird enough, we don't need literal logic-defying magic too.

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I get where you're coming from but it's a little bit unfair to hold them accountable for not being so thorough in their speculative biology, when it's really not their focus or the purview of the game, nor should they be expected to be some expert on the subject. If one should take issue about this aspect, one should also question why Protoss are even humanoid in the first place, how they are arbitrarily deemed as pure of form/the pinnacle of a physical specimen and how their psionics are even feasible.

You have to keep in mind that we are talking about a fictional alien species. Their biology doesn't have to work the same or be within the same limits as what we have here on Earth. This also includes them having similarities to our known concepts in biology but not being exactly the same, too. In other words, it's all "space magic" really.

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

In the SC1 manual the Protoss were explained as adaptable to a variety of conditions. The xel'naga were interested in the Protoss because they were the apex of physical fitness: strong, fast, apex predators, adaptable to a variety of adverse conditions. SC2 retconned that and hit the Protoss with a nerfbat. Where before they seemed perfectly fine walking naked in ice fields or deserts in search of prey, now they have to wear animal furs and genetically alter themselves to survive anywhere. Their technological development before the Aeon of Strife was retconned away and attributed to xel'naga.

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I feel ya on their technological advancement being all attributed to the Xel'naga as a neutering of their identity but " being adaptable" is a very broad term and can be applied many ways. For example, humans are adaptable to a variety of conditions, too, just not in an innate "natural resistance to the elements" way.

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Originally Posted by sandwich_bird

I guess if they follow the same events, the only thing you'd have to remove are the parts about the zergs killing the XN hovering above Char because I can't see how SC2 version of XN, which are god like creatures, could get destroyed by zergs.

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From what we have in Sc2, they only seem to be invulnerable in their own realm (where only they can harm each other it seems). Outside of that space, both Duran and Amon's "shells" could be destroyed and whilst they took an abnormal amount of punishment in order to destroy, both Duran and Amon had been planning this for a long time such that the physical shells we see may have been purposely tailored to withstand some damage given their course of action of obliterating Xel'nagan based life in the galaxy. I'm having to bend my mind into doublethink (like ShadowArchon once did) to justify it but maybe the natural Xel'naga really were just as squishy as any other life form and that they were caught off guard back then.

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Originally Posted by sandwich_bird

But yeah, Amon's plan makes no sense. The cycle "ascendancy" thing makes no sense either. How are 2 races supposed to "come together" to Ulnar and then become XN? By "coming together" do they mean literally merging? If so then this is exactly what Amon did by creating the hybrids so why the hell would he do that as you say? And anyways, if his aim is to destroy the cycle, didn't he accomplish that by murdering the other XN? If they can't pass on their XN magic powers to 2 new races because they're dead well the cycle is pretty much broken. And if that's the case, why keep Ouros alive in the first place? Just kill him too with the others lol. And what the hell does "remaking the world to his image" means specifically? There's just so much abstraction in SC2 lore that it makes the story very confusing; in a very bad way.

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Yep. There's hardly any intradiegetic (in-universe explanation) build-up to justify these happenstances such that the viewer is forced to consider only extradiegetic reasons (out-of-universe explanation) as to why said happenstances exist at all.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

Zeratul said the Overmind came to Aiur to finish the Xel'Naga's experiments. Nothing was said about surpassing it all. And the Overmind said nothing about creating the ultimate lifeform. It merely thought that this would make the swarm perfect. Makes you really wonder did it actually know what would REALLY happen if it had won on Aiur...

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The Xel'naga did finish their experiments: they proclaimed that the Protoss were failures and that the Zerg were the ultimate lifeform. This is because in the SC1 manual, purity of form and essence were arbitrary concepts intended to separately create the ultimate lifeform; when purity of form failed, the xel'naga decided to explore purity of essence instead. After eating the xel'naga, the Overmind turned purity of form and essence into complementary religious mumbo jumbo that had no basis in the xel'naga's own beliefs.

The Overmind is not completing anything other than its own religious beliefs. It's supposed to be inspired by the speech of the Old Testament god, with the cerebrates as its prophets. The Zerg are so advanced that science and religion have become indistinguishable to them.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I get where you're coming from but it's a little bit unfair to hold them accountable for not being so thorough in their speculative biology, when it's really not their focus or the purview of the game, nor should they be expected to be some expert on the subject. If one should take issue about this aspect, one should also question why Protoss are even humanoid in the first place, how they are arbitrarily deemed as pure of form/the pinnacle of a physical specimen and how their psionics are even feasible.

You have to keep in mind that we are talking about a fictional alien species. Their biology doesn't have to work the same or be within the same limits as what we have here on Earth. This also includes them having similarities to our known concepts in biology but not being exactly the same, too. In other words, it's all "space magic" really.

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When writing military science fiction, and not epic space fantasy, it's better to be "not even wrong" over just plain wrong. I take most issue with the photosynthesis since it generates mass from nowhere and every other instance shows the Protoss mining for resources to manufacture their structures and power their warp gates (and presumably power food replicators too). I can rationalize the rest: for example, if they have three hearts, why not six or seven lungs? Their psi matrix works exactly like Tesla's wireless power transfer, which is only practical in a communist utopia like Aiur.

You're right in that Blizzard made them too human in appearance and this is detrimental to their portrayal. They have basically human skulls sans most identifying features, which makes them expressionless and boring. Their are so many other ways their anatomy could have been structured while remaining roughly humanoid without being human or soulless. The SC1 victory screen had freakishly long fingers, for example. The skull could have been structured more like, I don't know, the alien in the short film "R'ha." There are numerous examples of more interesting mouthless alien designs on Deviantart.

In fact they handle several skin tones in starcraft 2 the high templarios for example are beige, blue skin, purple, albina the only color I have not seen is the turquoise green of the original zealots, the colors were reused, only now not Are so scalable, they became more subtle in the remastered and starcraft 2. It is even suggested that the color is indicative of the color of the tribe or faction and I come to think that the gray color that you have so bored is that of the main tribe of the Templar caste: Akilae the caste that we see fighting mainly .

https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net...20101129113256


As for the texture of the skin I have no peculiar attachment to the excessive rhomboid wrinkles are fine but they are not as necessary
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In the end I worry more that it seems that they forgot that artanis must have the largest neural appendices, I rationalized it thinking that the short size was indicative of his youth, but in starcraft 2 and have recognized that it is a mistake, are long So I hope you do not forget it and repeat the same as they recognized in a past interview

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

The Xel'naga did finish their experiments: they proclaimed that the Protoss were failures and that the Zerg were the ultimate lifeform. This is because in the SC1 manual, purity of form and essence were arbitrary concepts intended to separately create the ultimate lifeform; when purity of form failed, the xel'naga decided to explore purity of essence instead. After eating the xel'naga, the Overmind turned purity of form and essence into complementary religious mumbo jumbo that had no basis in the xel'naga's own beliefs.

The Overmind is not completing anything other than its own religious beliefs. It's supposed to be inspired by the speech of the Old Testament god, with the cerebrates as its prophets. The Zerg are so advanced that science and religion have become indistinguishable to them.

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Personally I dislike a villain who sees it as his divine right to conquer everything. If that's the case then Blizzard merely ripped this off the white man's thinking centuries ago, where they hammered it into the Bible that it was their destiny to rule the world.

I never like bringing in religious crap into a sci-fi storyline. The prophecy certainly didn't help out too much, though I know many would have accepted it if Blizzard had outright told them (before even WoL was out) that SC2 was more towards sci-fantasy.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I get where you're coming from but it's a little bit unfair to hold them accountable for not being so thorough in their speculative biology, when it's really not their focus or the purview of the game, nor should they be expected to be some expert on the subject.

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Plus when you've got FTL and psionics you can't really afford to be picky about protoss biology. Going into FTL requires harnessing unfathomable amounts of energies from anti-matter that simply doesn't exist in large enough quantities in our universe. A dropship that can go into FTL should be able to blow up a sun and/or the solar system.

And I'm pretty sure the biology of the entire zerg race is bullshit. Being able to sequence DNA (or whatever genetic material the alien uses) doesn't mean you know dick about how it works and that you can just insert the parts you like into your own genome. It's like knowing the letters of the alphabet to a language but not knowing the language itself.

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Originally Posted by gradius

Going into FTL requires harnessing unfathomable amounts of energies from anti-matter that simply doesn't exist in large enough quantities in our universe.

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I addressed this in my Battlecruiser cutaway, but researchers are currently doing work on a warp field interferometer. Some current theories suggest a high-K capacitor need only be shaped in a torus to bring power requirements to a manageable level; while the fuel capacity was previously in the Jovian range, it's now much more realistic. Research is ongoing.

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And I'm pretty sure the biology of the entire zerg race is bullshit.

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Nope, that's a thing, too. Animals on earth do this. Hell, we use it in medicine.

Science, y'all. It's beautiful.

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

I addressed this in my Battlecruiser cutaway, but researchers are currently doing work on a warp field interferometer. Some current theories suggest a high-K capacitor need only be shaped in a torus to bring power requirements to a manageable level; while the fuel capacity was previously in the Jovian range, it's now much more realistic. Research is ongoing.

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I thought their experiment wasn't sensitive enough to show that a space time warp had occurred, and even if it did, this isn't even a proof of concept that you can use this for FTL. It's not like NASA is researching FTL (even though they should). And I'm pretty sure you'd still need exotic matter to get it to work, which we can only produce in insanely small quantities.

That battlecruiser cutout is sick. I know you gotta take liberties because it's StarCraft, but doesn't the torus on the FTL drive have to be around the whole ship though?

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

Nope, that's a thing, too. Animals on earth do this. Hell, we use it in medicine.

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This exists because organisms on Earth have a common ancestor. That's why human DNA is 80% identical to a cow. This isn't going to happen on alien planets. What if the alien proteins are opposite handed? What if their DNA doesn't encode proteins? What if they don't use DNA as genetic material? What if they're silicon based lifeforms? It's not going to be impossible for zerg to figure out how it works after study, sure, but it is going to be impossible for them to just swap it in like organisms here on Earth can. And the primal zerg sucking blue energy out of their victims and stealing their DNA on the spot? Hell no.

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What if the alien proteins are opposite handed? What if their DNA doesn't encode proteins?

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See, this is why I loved Mass Effect, it actually dealt with chirality and nutritional requirements for the different species. You're right in that other life forms would likely use DNA analogs that are incompatible with our own; my links were simply assuming the protoss and zerg were also terrestrial carbon-bsaed life forms -- which, in all reality, they wouldn't be. (Unless you want to spin the tinfoil theory that, since humanity is a product of the same cycle, then the protoss and zerg would have similar biological foundations. And no, I don't agree with that theory.)

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And I'm pretty sure you'd still need exotic matter to get it to work, which we can only produce in insanely small quantities.

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Well, we are trying to harness the casimir effect with metamaterials and microchips, so that kinda counts, right? :D

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I thought their experiment wasn't sensitive enough to show that a space time warp had occurred, and even if it did, this isn't even a proof of concept that you can use this for FTL.

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Hey man. If we even detect a change equivalent to one part in a billion, then it's all a matter of engineering after that.

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

When writing military science fiction, and not epic space fantasy, it's better to be "not even wrong" over just plain wrong.

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Eh, "military science fiction" does not necessarily imply a degree of hardness to its sci-fi. Afterall, Star Wars can be described as "military science fiction", too...

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

I take most issue with the photosynthesis since it generates mass from nowhere and every other instance shows the Protoss mining for resources to manufacture their structures and power their warp gates (and presumably power food replicators too). I can rationalize the rest: for example, if they have three hearts, why not six or seven lungs? Their psi matrix works exactly like Tesla's wireless power transfer, which is only practical in a communist utopia like Aiur.

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I dunno. If I were, like you, to take the same issue with them using photosynthesis, I would also be compelled to take issue behind the biological basis of their psionic power as well - you know, the more overt and important trait the Protoss possess. And yet, you don't. What makes you rationalise their psionics but not that that they could be using some form/equivalence of photosynthesis as a means of energy production? It could be that the process is described as photosynthesis to make it easier to understand but it could be a process that has no comparison to what we have on Earth.

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

You're right in that Blizzard made them too human in appearance and this is detrimental to their portrayal.

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Well, we can chalk that up to writers having no sense of what it is to be truly alien. It's hard to write some thing truly alien since people can only write things they know about or are relatable in some way - mainly things that are reflections of other humans or themselves. The Overmind was the closest thing Sc ever got to when it came to true alienness.

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

More datamining listed here: https://glasscannon.ru/2017/07/starc...zhej-kampanii/

IIRC mappers were able to override portraits in the original starcraft with custom ones. Why not do the same for remastered if Blizz doesn't come through? Call it "protoss of color portraits pack" or something and make up some spiel about political correctness to advertise it.

A bigger problem with the Protoss is that they have huge chins which serve no biological or aesthetic function besides shorthand for "alien." They don't have any gills, muscles or other tissues to move like human or zerg portraits do. The dark templar cover their faces, which makes them stand out but also raises the question of why they cover their faces if their faces don't move in the first place? The SC1 models at least wiggled their faces a tiny bit considering the low res.

The only reason why various obscure sources claim the Protoss don't eat or breath, survive in space unprotected, and are photosynthetic, among other things, is because they don't have obvious mouths. However, the original manual stated that they evolved from apex predators that hunted in packs. It makes no sense that they wouldn't need to eat or breath, since even plants die in vacuum because they respire carbon dioxide and the only reason plants would evolve the means to hunt is if they were carnivorous and would thus cease being plants. The implication was always that Protoss had mouths in a different place and still needed to breath (they probably have invisible spacesuits or something, since they already have robots and teleportation).

Blizzard isn't even consistent with their space magic explanations. SC2 gives Zeratul gratuitous nipples, which the Artanis/Dark Templar BW model lacked, and implies female Protoss have breasts. At one point a FAQ claimed that Zerg don't literally breathe in space, they just evolved biological spacesuits to store oxygen and don't have this adaptation unless they are expected to go into space.

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but zerg fight in plataforms, these adaptation can be common
https://glasscannon.ru/wp-content/up...ackground4.jpg

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but zerg fight in plataforms, these adaptation can be common

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When asked how Banshees can fly on platform maps, some Blizzard rep stated that platforms have self-contained atmospheres and gravity generators.

It's not an answer I like, but, there it is.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Plus when you've got FTL and psionics you can't really afford to be picky about protoss biology. Going into FTL requires harnessing unfathomable amounts of energies from anti-matter that simply doesn't exist in large enough quantities in our universe. A dropship that can go into FTL should be able to blow up a sun and/or the solar system.

And I'm pretty sure the biology of the entire zerg race is bullshit. Being able to sequence DNA (or whatever genetic material the alien uses) doesn't mean you know dick about how it works and that you can just insert the parts you like into your own genome. It's like knowing the letters of the alphabet to a language but not knowing the language itself.

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Tell me something then Gradius: when you were still young and only knew the alphabet, if there was no outside help, how long do you think it would take for you to learn how to read, and eventually start to understand the language?

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

Tell me something then Gradius: when you were still young and only knew the alphabet, if there was no outside help, how long do you think it would take for you to learn how to read, and eventually start to understand the language?

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You just proved his point.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Plus when you've got FTL and psionics you can't really afford to be picky about protoss biology. Going into FTL requires harnessing unfathomable amounts of energies from anti-matter that simply doesn't exist in large enough quantities in our universe. A dropship that can go into FTL should be able to blow up a sun and/or the solar system.

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There's an infinite number of realities for every possible outcome. We're simply concerned with the reality where FTL did not extinguish the galaxy. At this point I'd accept an explanation like, I don't know, mutually assured destruction (if someone does it, then everything dies), the xel'naga or first age protoss built interdicts to prevent FTL from destroying all life, the zerg are either unwilling or unable to comprehend the concept of opening a wormhole between a planet and the corona of a star, or something of that nature. Farscape had a long-running story arc devoted to exploring the consequences of using wormholes as weapons.

There's a difference between getting real science wrong and introducing concepts that have no basis in reality. You cannot get psionics wrong when they don't exist in reality to begin with. With photosynthesis, we know from crunching the numbers and observation that it cannot support organisms bigger than 30 centimeters (and then only if ectothermic) and is not competitive compared to pure plant or animal.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

And I'm pretty sure the biology of the entire zerg race is bullshit. Being able to sequence DNA (or whatever genetic material the alien uses) doesn't mean you know dick about how it works and that you can just insert the parts you like into your own genome. It's like knowing the letters of the alphabet to a language but not knowing the language itself.

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The zerg parasites had centuries to millennia of trial and error to figure out how to manipulate genomes using biochemicals specifically evolved for that purpose and psychic powers allowing them to coordinate, while humans only created practical means of molecular engineering within the last few decades. In mission three of your StarCraft: Origins campaign you brought this up as a plot point. The overmind and cerebrates devoted their massive brain power and psychic powers to overcoming the biochemical barriers of alien species like the Gargantis Proximae and the behemoths (which might have been aided by the xel'naga, only to backfire when this made the zerg aware of their ships). When the Gashyrr wasps proved too difficult, the Overmind created Abathur to apply their new understanding of "protogenetics."

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I dunno. If I were, like you, to take the same issue with them using photosynthesis, I would also be compelled to take issue behind the biological basis of their psionic power as well - you know, the more overt and important trait the Protoss possess. And yet, you don't. What makes you rationalise their psionics but not that that they could be using some form/equivalence of photosynthesis as a means of energy production? It could be that the process is described as photosynthesis to make it easier to understand but it could be a process that has no comparison to what we have on Earth.

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As long as they follow conservation of energy, momentum and angular momentum (otherwise the laws of physics would change over time, distance and direction, making life as we know it impossible), I don't have an issue. Real science cannot even begin to explain how psionics could possibly work.

Also, Protoss photosynthesis is a retcon introduced by the Dark Templar Trilogy. They were originally hunters and, by implication, carnivores. Since I generally dislike the post-2006 canon, I find it easy to simply ignore the photosythesis retcon and keep the Protoss as carnivores who eat in some weird alien way that doesn't involve an orifice on their head.

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

There's a difference between getting real science wrong and introducing concepts that have no basis in reality. You cannot get psionics wrong when they don't exist in reality to begin with. With photosynthesis, we know from crunching the numbers and observation that it cannot support organisms bigger than 30 centimeters (and then only if ectothermic) and is not competitive compared to pure plant or animal.

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You're being too particular about photosynthesis being the exact same process as we see it on Earth. Given the nature of science-fiction, we can easily handwave the discrepancy by just saying it's an alien form of photosynthesis or that the Protoss version of it has extremely high efficiency compared to "regular" photosynthesis that we see on Earth since the Protoss are supposedly superior on a physiological level in all ways afterall. Such high efficiency (both in receiving of the light energy and the metabolic processes to convert that into usable energy by the organism) could easily go into powering their psionics and help building mass on their frames without having a need to physically eat.

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

Hey man. If we even detect a change equivalent to one part in a billion, then it's all a matter of engineering after that.

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Yeah, but is warping space a proof of concept for FTL? If we actually accelerated a particle to FTL, then we'd have something. But as you know, quantum physics governs small scale, while general relatively governs large scale. So even if you got it to work for a particle, you could face totally different challenges in transitioning this technology to larger objects.

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

There's an infinite number of realities for every possible outcome. We're simply concerned with the reality where FTL did not extinguish the galaxy.

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Simply assuming that somehow nobody leveraged this insanely powerful technology doesn't seem like a great solution to me. Maybe this universe has different laws of physics that allows FTL travel without insane amounts of energy or some random loophole, but this definitely isn't a thing in our reality which is why most hard sci fi avoids this concept entirely. People vastly underestimate how insane the distances between stars are.

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At this point I'd accept an explanation like, I don't know, mutually assured destruction (if someone does it, then everything dies), the xel'naga or first age protoss built interdicts to prevent FTL from destroying all life, the zerg are either unwilling or unable to comprehend the concept of opening a wormhole between a planet and the corona of a star, or something of that nature.

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Well, I think the manual says only the protoss are advanced enough to warp to the surface of a planet. But they can already destroy worlds, and they have and are more than willing to do it. If there was an easier way I'm sure they would be doing it (like throwing a black hole at a planet). But that would break the narrative and setting. Still, I totally get that protoss honor would prevent them from resorting to these tactics. But terrans and zerg? Not so much.

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Farscape had a long-running story arc devoted to exploring the consequences of using wormholes as weapons.

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I loved Farscape, but not every superweapon has to be the type that will take the rest of the galaxy with it.

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There's a difference between getting real science wrong and introducing concepts that have no basis in reality. You cannot get psionics wrong when they don't exist in reality to begin with. With photosynthesis, we know from crunching the numbers and observation that it cannot support organisms bigger than 30 centimeters (and then only if ectothermic) and is not competitive compared to pure plant or animal.

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FTL has no basis in reality. Check out this article, it's by a theoretical physicist: http://io9.gizmodo.com/5840071/what-...an-light-drive

But the point is, if you're willing to fudge the problems and energy requirements needed for FTL, there's no reason you should be so picky about fudging the numbers for protoss photosynthesis.

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The zerg parasites had centuries to millennia of trial and error to figure out how to manipulate genomes using biochemicals specifically evolved for that purpose and psychic powers allowing them to coordinate, while humans only created practical means of molecular engineering within the last few decades. In mission three of your StarCraft: Origins campaign you brought this up as a plot point. The overmind and cerebrates devoted their massive brain power and psychic powers to overcoming the biochemical barriers of alien species like the Gargantis Proximae and the behemoths (which might have been aided by the xel'naga, only to backfire when this made the zerg aware of their ships). When the Gashyrr wasps proved too difficult, the Overmind created Abathur to apply their new understanding of "protogenetics."

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Man I would have loved to have finished that. But yeah, zerg assimilation is a problem... There's nothing I can do other than say "yo, the Overmind recognizes this problem and created a special guy to work on this."

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As long as they follow conservation of energy, momentum and angular momentum (otherwise the laws of physics would change over time, distance and direction, making life as we know it impossible), I don't have an issue. Real science cannot even begin to explain how psionics could possibly work.

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Why not apply the same logic to protoss photosynthesis? There's no reason it has to work exactly like the plants here on Earth do.

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Also, Protoss photosynthesis is a retcon introduced by the Dark Templar Trilogy. They were originally hunters and, by implication, carnivores. Since I generally dislike the post-2006 canon, I find it easy to simply ignore the photosythesis retcon and keep the Protoss as carnivores who eat in some weird alien way that doesn't involve an orifice on their head.

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I still don't understand your line of thinking here. There's no evidence that they are carnivores, and they already have named energy sources which are way more than enough to meet their metabolic requirements. I'm pretty sure the manual writers knew the protoss don't have a mouth. Therefore Protoss seemingly don't have to worry about feeding themselves. Therefore they have loads of free time on their hands. Not only is it possible, but it's also plausible that they hunt for sport (or claws, skins, whatever) just like people here on Earth do.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Yeah, but is warping space a proof of concept for FTL? If we actually accelerated a particle to FTL, then we'd have something. But as you know, quantum physics governs small scale, while general relatively governs large scale. So even if you got it to work for a particle, you could face totally different challenges in transitioning this technology to larger objects.


Simply assuming that somehow nobody leveraged this insanely powerful technology doesn't seem like a great solution to me. Maybe this universe has different laws of physics that allows FTL travel without insane amounts of energy or some random loophole, but this definitely isn't a thing in our reality which is why most hard sci fi avoids this concept entirely. People vastly underestimate how insane the distances between stars are.


Well, I think the manual says only the protoss are advanced enough to warp to the surface of a planet. But they can already destroy worlds, and they have and are more than willing to do it. If there was an easier way I'm sure they would be doing it (like throwing a black hole at a planet). But that would break the narrative and setting. Still, I totally get that protoss honor would prevent them from resorting to these tactics. But terrans and zerg? Not so much.


I loved Farscape, but not every superweapon has to be the type that will take the rest of the galaxy with it.

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I don't have an answer for why FTL is not used as a weapon. Realistically, any civilization that achieved FTL would already be god-like by modern standards. None of the three races should have any FTL capability given how much less advanced they are in every other area. The backstory for the Terrans alone suggests they are closer to Cyberpunk 2020 than Transhuman Space or Eclipse Phase. It is more realistic to build a dyson sphere around the sun and travel the galaxy at normal speed over millions of years then to build an FTL drive.

I am pretty sure someone out there has already written an article that explains a method of FTL which cannot be exploited as a planetcracking superweapon, which could justify the bizarrely limited applications of gravity manipulation in fiction. I just cannot find one right now.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

You're being too particular about photosynthesis being the exact same process as we see it on Earth. Given the nature of science-fiction, we can easily handwave the discrepancy by just saying it's an alien form of photosynthesis or that the Protoss version of it has extremely high efficiency compared to "regular" photosynthesis that we see on Earth since the Protoss are supposedly superior on a physiological level in all ways afterall. Such high efficiency (both in receiving of the light energy and the metabolic processes to convert that into usable energy by the organism) could easily go into powering their psionics and help building mass on their frames without having a need to physically eat.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

FTL has no basis in reality. Check out this article, it's by a theoretical physicist: http://io9.gizmodo.com/5840071/what-...an-light-drive

But the point is, if you're willing to fudge the problems and energy requirements needed for FTL, there's no reason you should be so picky about fudging the numbers for protoss photosynthesis.


Man I would have loved to have finished that. But yeah, zerg assimilation is a problem... There's nothing I can do other than say "yo, the Overmind recognizes this problem and created a special guy to work on this."


Why not apply the same logic to protoss photosynthesis? There's no reason it has to work exactly like the plants here on Earth do.


I still don't understand your line of thinking here. There's no evidence that they are carnivores, and they already have named energy sources which are way more than enough to meet their metabolic requirements. I'm pretty sure the manual writers knew the protoss don't have a mouth. Therefore Protoss seemingly don't have to worry about feeding themselves. Therefore they have loads of free time on their hands. Not only is it possible, but it's also plausible that they hunt for sport (or claws, skins, whatever) just like people here on Earth do.

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The short answer is that it is simply impossible for the Protoss to subsist on light because that violates the Shockley–Queisser limit and converts photons into matter. It would require a whole library to explain how they can break the laws of physics over their knees without being omnipotent superbeings that use galaxies as softballs.

It would be simpler to assume they eat with their skin or something similarly freakish, or even just leave the whole thing unexplained. It's quite frankly impossible for any living creature to fly in space with conventional wings: the lore explicitly states that nobody understands the mechanics of mutalisks flying through space rather than trying to claim they have super-efficient solar sails or something. I don't understand why a similar explanation cannot suffice for everything else.

I've engaged in versus debates on spacebattles, which commonly hands out a "vlad tepes" award for exceptional cruelty whenever these kinds of arguments come up. If I let the Protoss turn visible light into cells, then I am likewise compelled to let the Zerg use radio signals as an infection vector.

To be fair, the Shockley-Quiesser limit makes several assumptions, not all of which are true for every system; and is applicable to cells with a single p-n junction.

I'd be more concerned with the conversion process and capacitance.

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Originally Posted by Mislagnissa

The short answer is that it is simply impossible for the Protoss to subsist on light because that violates the Shockley–Queisser limit and converts photons into matter.

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Um, that's why they call this science-fiction? :p

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

To be fair, the Shockley-Quiesser limit makes several assumptions, not all of which are true for every system; and is applicable to cells with a single p-n junction.

I'd be more concerned with the conversion process and capacitance.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Um, that's why they call this science-fiction? :p

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It doesn't really matter how they do it, we're long past real physics. The Zerg have infested, assimilated and mutated numerous bizarre things like mutalisk flight and anti-gravity cancer. The far less advanced Dominion was able to create Protoss/Terran hybrids by grafting Protoss tissue onto a human test subject. If the Zerg get samples of Protoss skin, which should be trivial, they could duplicate and reverse the space magic photosynthesis to infest light and sound.

Could we get this split off into its own thread? I think we're interfering with the discussion about portraits.