Planetary Fortress : Overpowered based on BR4?

At the 5:08 mark of the second part of Battle report 4 below is when the assault on the planetary fortress begins:



I'm not so much saying that the planetary fortress has too much firepower, but that it should have been killed by 17 zealots, and 4 stalkers much faster even with a few scv's repairing it.

I don't think much needs to be done other than maybe a slightly slower repair rate on the planetary fortress compared to the other buildings. I believe the planetary fortress in this scenario should have been killed by that army, even though they should have and would have been destroyed afterward, they still should have been able to kill the fortress before dieing off, in my opinion.

What say you?

They were off by 100 HP, it was close.
Also, PF does have an armour bonus, and they were also getting attacked by other forces.

Armor bonus = sucks. Remove armor bonus and make it cheaper.

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Originally Posted by Pandonetho

They were off by 100 HP, it was close.
Also, PF does have an armour bonus, and they were also getting attacked by other forces.

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I understand that it was close, and they did eventually start to be attacked. But the protoss clearly chose to sacrifice that large army to kill that fortress. I believe it should have been killed, therefore since it wasn't, I must believe that there is a problem there. 17 zealots and 4 stalkers can do quite a bit of damage at one time, and with only 3 scv's repairing, at most, the building should have fallen.

That's why i said a slight repair decrease, for just a slight change in how quickly it will die, righting what I believe is a wrong.

I think when every unit and ability has a thread saying its overpowered....then we will know the game is finally balanced.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

I think when every unit and ability has a thread saying its overpowered....then we will know the game is finally balanced.

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Oh way to try and fit in what dustin browder said. However, I dont think it applies to this situation. All I am saying is that the planetary fortress survived in a situation that I dont believe it should have, similar to the ghost being able to survive during nuke call down because of the speedy healing of a medivac.

The medivac simply heals too fast for one unit alone, and this planetary fortress took too long to be killed by a fairly large force that never stopped attacking it.

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Originally Posted by Santrega

Oh way to try and fit in what dustin browder said.

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what?

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

what?

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You trying to tell me you didn't know that dustin browder said they want every unit to seem overpowered? They also said though, that then they want to start dialing those units back a bit to balance, i believe.

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Originally Posted by Santrega

You trying to tell me you didn't know that dustin browder said they want every unit to seem overpowered? They also said though, that then they want to start dialing those units back a bit to balance, i believe.

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Oh good so I guess what your saying is that there really is no way to tell if the Planetary Fortress is overpowered since its not beta, we havnt played it, we havnt seen it allot and ever unit is supposed to be allittle overpowered anyway.

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Originally Posted by Santrega

The medivac simply heals too fast for one unit alone, and this planetary fortress took too long to be killed by a fairly large force that never stopped attacking it.

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No this was fine imo. The stalkers were late and not enough in numbers. Makine the nuke less easy would make it useless again.

About the PF I think that it's ok the way it is. I mean he should have killed those scv and that's it! It's not like he couldn't have done it. Did you see how many he killed with only 3 zealots on the island expo?

It's really not possible to tell how powerful a PF is in BR4. Obviously it's a main building, so it has a lot of HP, plus it was being repaired.

Ignoring your opponent's entire army while trying to deal 2000 damage to a structure is a recipe for disaster. The same thing from the BR will happen in BW if you try to kill a CC with 20 dragoons while it's being repaired and 5 tanks are shooting you from a cliff.

I don't think an army and a planetary fortress beating another army w/out a planetary fortress means a planetary fortress is imba. At any rate, it would just be a stats tweak, so it's not really worthy of discussion at this point.

Air and siege units are vital in total destruction of the Planetary Fortress given its large pool of health and armor...


-Psi

Two factors played into the PF surviving. First was the fact that he chose 16+ zealots to attack it, which means that they had split attacks. This unit is GREATLY affected by armor as each of the two strikes are effected by armor.

Secondly, David Kim upgraded Terran Armor twice. Bringing the armor of the PF to a total of 5 (3 base armor + 2 from upgrades). That means that Zealots were doing [8-5]x2 damage a volley. If it was any other unit in the protoss arsenal but Zealots, it would have gone a bit smoother.

3 SCVs can EASILY repair 50 damage a second I believe which is fine. The Zealots were doing 96 damage a volley in that circumstance... This is something I believe statistically is acceptable.

If it was against an Orbital Command with no armor upgrades, the damage would have skyrocketed from 96 damage per volley to 224. If it would have been the same amount of PSI in stalkers or other units, you would have seen a significant damage boost per second on the PF as they would have half the damage reduction.

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Morale of the story: Don't attack a fully upgraded Planetary fortress with units that attack twice. -10 damage an attack is brutal.

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Nice math, Gifted. :cool:

I also must put in the opinion that the Planetary Fortress must be powerful, otherwise there is no reason in heck to have a PF instead of an orbital command. If a PF could be defeated by 16 measly Zealots, why waste a CC with it? Why not just get MULEs and scanner and ignore the PF?

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Originally Posted by Xyvik

I also must put in the opinion that the Planetary Fortress must be powerful, otherwise there is no reason in heck to have a PF instead of an orbital command. If a PF could be defeated by 16 measly Zealots, why waste a CC with it? Why not just get MULEs and scanner and ignore the PF?

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to cover your new exp base just like David Kim did
you fly away with the CC, land on an island, you upgrade to PF and you don't have to bother much about ground units, if David Kim would upgrade his CC on that island in to PF he could easily defend his exp

Yeah but a PF can´t lift off and might not be able to hit air. Kim also wouldn´t have been able to reinforce to the island expansion which was crucial to defend the PF. Also afaik the PF deals splash damage, making the idea to attack it with Zealots even worse than it was already.
I think in the BR the PF worked EXACTLY as it is supposed to / I´d hope it to be.

Kinda hard to see based on this one demonstration alone. Gotta consider the Terrans brought a sizeable force to repel the threat, and it also looks like the Protoss stormed a bunch of his own Zealots when targeting the SCV's. If the PF doesn't attack air it seems like it could balance out.

I don't like the idea of such a powerful defensive building. I know that they want it to be worth next to the MULEs, but 40 dmg with AoE seems a little too much. It would be better if the attack was lower (or just not have one), and it could quickly produce a batch of Barrack units. For example: allowing 10 Barrack units to be produced very fast, then the cooldown kicks in.

Anyways, Zealots are one of the worst units to use against it. They're totally useless against the PF. Probably caused by the bigger PF Armor, and the AoE attack hitting several Zealots at once.

Information I've found outside of SC2POD seems to coordinate that it does not attack the air. I'm not saying it's doesn't attack air, merely that the majority of information we have states the otherwise.

Still, based on the math, the WORST thing you can attack a PF with is mass zealot, Marine or Zergling.

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Originally Posted by Gifted

Information I've found outside of SC2POD seems to coordinate that it does not attack the air. I'm not saying it's doesn't attack air, merely that the majority of information we have states the otherwise.

Still, based on the math, the WORST thing you can attack a PF with is mass zealot, Marine or Zergling.

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I guess now I see what the problem is. I understand that the zealots were totally the incorrect unit to use in this circumstance. It just seems very unlike starcraft to have a building survive in that situation.

I thought they wanted zealots to be useful late game as well? How is it going to be useful if all buildings have that armor upgrade? The point of starcraft is to kill the enemies buildings, making buildings tougher to kill only prolongs the game. I don't really like playing wc3 and WoW because of the length it times to kill things, however, I like starcraft/diablo because things die much faster. The game appeals to me because of the fast results from a quick strike.

I never really thought about it before, but I guess its the armor upgrades I don't like about this. I believe the units should be made easier/harder to kill, not the buildings.

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Originally Posted by Santrega

I guess now I see what the problem is. I understand that the zealots were totally the incorrect unit to use in this circumstance. It just seems very unlike starcraft to have a building survive in that situation.

I thought they wanted zealots to be useful late game as well? How is it going to be useful if all buildings have that armor upgrade? The point of starcraft is to kill the enemies buildings, making buildings tougher to kill only prolongs the game. I don't really like playing wc3 and WoW because of the length it times to kill things, however, I like starcraft/diablo because things die much faster. The game appeals to me because of the fast results from a quick strike.

I never really thought about it before, but I guess its the armor upgrades I don't like about this. I believe the units should be made easier/harder to kill, not the buildings.

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That's a respectable opinion, not saying I agree with it, but respectable non-the-less.

I personally won't form an opinion on this upgrade until I see it tested in all aspects of the game. I'd like to see how long it takes them to take down 3 armor buildings, or 1 armor buildings before I decide my thoughts on it. We also have to consider that all calculations are based on BR4, which means that the zealots had no attack upgrade. In other words, it was as if the Zealots were attacking units with +2 armor upgrade with a +0 attack. In this theory I think it's an acceptable situation in theory.. but can't be sure until we try it out.

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Originally Posted by Santrega

I guess now I see what the problem is. I understand that the zealots were totally the incorrect unit to use in this circumstance. It just seems very unlike starcraft to have a building survive in that situation.

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well 3 armout drops the Zealot to doing 10 damage per time, so it's not really surprising that the PF manage to survive a fair while.

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I thought they wanted zealots to be useful late game as well? How is it going to be useful if all buildings have that armor upgrade? The point of starcraft is to kill the enemies buildings, making buildings tougher to kill only prolongs the game.

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Zealots by this stage are support units, they keep Zerglings and the like from hitting your main force, so they are going to be very useful.

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Originally Posted by Santrega

I thought they wanted zealots to be useful late game as well? How is it going to be useful if all buildings have that armor upgrade? The point of starcraft is to kill the enemies buildings, making buildings tougher to kill only prolongs the game. I don't really like playing wc3 and WoW because of the length it times to kill things, however, I like starcraft/diablo because things die much faster. The game appeals to me because of the fast results from a quick strike.

I never really thought about it before, but I guess its the armor upgrades I don't like about this. I believe the units should be made easier/harder to kill, not the buildings.

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Zealots could do 0 damage to buildings and still be useful if they completely annihilated an opponents army. It's only natural for each unit to excel at certain things. Obviously you're probably never going to want an army of pure zealots if you have the tech to avoid it.

I don't get the complaint about the speed of things dying. Everything seems to die pretty damn fast in SC2. Obviously a main building with ~2000 hp should take a little bit more time though, especially if it's being repaired. CCs could take a while to kill in SC:BW as well.

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Originally Posted by Gifted

Information I've found outside of SC2POD seems to coordinate that it does not attack the air. I'm not saying it's doesn't attack air, merely that the majority of information we have states the otherwise.

Still, based on the math, the WORST thing you can attack a PF with is mass zealot, Marine or Zergling.

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Someone actually thought that it attacks air? It doesn't and I can give you 100% confirmation on this since my PF was once attacked by Mutalisks and it didn't attack air.

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Originally Posted by rcp181

Zealots could do 0 damage to buildings and still be useful if they completely annihilated an opponents army. It's only natural for each unit to excel at certain things. Obviously you're probably never going to want an army of pure zealots if you have the tech to avoid it.

I don't get the complaint about the speed of things dying. Everything seems to die pretty damn fast in SC2. Obviously a main building with ~2000 hp should take a little bit more time though, especially if it's being repaired. CCs could take a while to kill in SC:BW as well.

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1500... HP btw... 500 hit points does make a difference...

I thought it was a fair fight. He did attack with Zealots after all.

And 100 HP was pretty friggin' close. It would've died had it not be for the repair and reinforcements.

27 seconds it took to kill off the last zealot... They couldnt kill one building in 27 seconds, someone please show me where an army of zealots in sc1 couldnt kill one building in 27 seconds. I've watched 6 zerglings take out a command center faster. I admit, its not a command center, but it also wasnt 6 zerglings.

PS: I Don't want units that are best against buildings. When that happens Sc becomes just another RTS game.

I want all units to be able to effect buildings the same way, except the differences in attack damage. I think its ridiculous to say "oh zealots shouldnt have attacked that BUILDING, because they arent the right kind of unit for that".

Starcraft is better off without any sort of building enhancements and extra defense against certain units. It's simply not needed, since you have to use many different kinds of units to counter actual units. Why does it make sense to make killing buildings off harder?

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Originally Posted by Santrega

27 seconds it took to kill off the last zealot... They couldnt kill one building in 27 seconds, someone please show me where an army of zealots in sc1 couldnt kill one building in 27 seconds. I've watched 6 zerglings take out a command center faster. I admit, its not a command center, but it also wasnt 6 zerglings.

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Same thing would happen in SC:BW if zealots tried to kill a CC that's being repaired while ignoring a huge army killing all the zealots.

Actually, the same thing wouldn't happen, because the terran player would just lift off.

That's right, almost every terran building can be INVULNERABLE to zealots if necessary. Zealots are still useful even if they can't kill buildings.

Also, 27 seconds is a skewed way of trying to support your claim. Obviously once you lose a set number of units the damage done per second will be less than repairing done. Stop the clock there :P

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Originally Posted by rcp181

Same thing would happen in SC:BW if zealots tried to kill a CC that's being repaired while ignoring a huge army killing all the zealots.

Actually, the same thing wouldn't happen, because the terran player would just lift off.

That's right, almost every terran building can be INVULNERABLE to zealots if necessary. Zealots are still useful even if they can't kill buildings.

Also, 27 seconds is a skewed way of trying to support your claim. Obviously once you lose a set number of units the damage done per second will be less than repairing done. Stop the clock there :P

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Well it all comes down to personal opinion. In mine I think the planetary fortress and any building shouldnt have bonus armor, period. In my opinion without it, that fortress would have fallen to that army.

I would rather the fortress do more damage, than for it to be harder to kill for tier 1 units. These building upgrades will turn a difficult long game into an even more difficult long game. It's unnecessary, and does more hurt than good in my opinion.

Units Fight units to get to buildings, I shouldnt have to in addition to that fight building upgrades and bonus armor.

Hehe, that's fine if you have your own opinion on armor, I was just trying to point out that zealots can still be very handy even if they can't kill buildings :)

In fact, most of the SCVs were wiped-off by a Psi Storm, only a few continued repairing, and there were a lot of Zealots.

Have a question. During that battle at the PF, (15:00 - where the last three Zealots get killed) it looks like the Thors and some of the Marauders are firing through the PF at the Zealots......shouldn't their direct sight to the target actually be blocked? (forcing them to take a position where the Z's are in direct view?)

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Originally Posted by Caliban113

Have a question. During that battle at the PF, (15:00 - where the last three Zealots get killed) it looks like the Thors and some of the Marauders are firing through the PF at the Zealots......shouldn't their direct sight to the target actually be blocked? (forcing them to take a position where the Z's are in direct view?)

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Well, buildings have never been able to block view or attacks, and probably never will be.

However, if their shot animations really were going THROUGH the pf, it would probably be nice if they went over instead :P

Since it only needs an engineering bay to be built, does anyone else see the possibility of flying your 1st command center to your opponents base along with all your SCV's in an attempt turn it into a PT while being repair by SCV's to do a rush? The PT would just dominate everything...

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Originally Posted by Tigger

Since it only needs an engineering bay to be built, does anyone else see the possibility of flying your 1st command center to your opponents base along with all your SCV's in an attempt turn it into a PT while being repair by SCV's to do a rush? The PT would just dominate everything...

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This has been discussed in other forums at least. I'll copy+paste a response I agree with. Probably a fun noob-stomp strategy we'll surely see a replay of during beta, but not a serious threat for a decent player.

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Can't the PF not lift-off and not downgrade anyway? Even in ideal circumstances, the best this strategy should ever be able to achieve is a draw.

In order to catch him by surprise and not get your landing blocked by an enemy worker, you would have to land quite a ways away from your target, at just the ideal range. Even if you're successful at killing the opposing player's nexus, you now have like 5 workers and a PF out in the middle of nowhere. As soon as the protoss player recognizes he can't kill the CC before it upgrades, he can just withdraw, let his nexus die, and use his army to deny the terran's mining. In the end you would have a grounded PF out of position, and the protoss would have a random building or two but plenty of workers (and probably a zealot or a cannon) to kill any SCVs who attempt to mine.

Also, this should never work against a terran or a zerg. Zerg overlord scout should see the CC coming, and the terran should be able to upgrade his own CC to a PF to defend himself (if he's already completed an OC, it's probably too late anyway).

Additionally for this to work, close positions are required. You would have to make a big sacrifice just to scout early and see if this is even remotely an option. If he's not a close position you've waste an early worker, and there is a chance he'll see your early scout and know you're up to something.

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the zeals were weaked b4 the PF assault. also, isnt zeal attack a 2 hit attack? so if the PF had 3 armor and zeal had 16 attack, the do only 10. Plus the repairing brought back a bit of hp, so i the PF could have had 50 hp left for all we know

Basically, the other player shouldn't have attacked the pf with that army, he should have pushed forward to the natural expansion, which was an orbital command. If he was able to take out David Kim's army there and then his attack would have been much more successful.

His army was wiped out due to strategic error.

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Originally Posted by Santrega

27 seconds it took to kill off the last zealot... They couldnt kill one building in 27 seconds, someone please show me where an army of zealots in sc1 couldnt kill one building in 27 seconds. I've watched 6 zerglings take out a command center faster. I admit, its not a command center, but it also wasnt 6 zerglings.

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Something to consider was that they were attacking without retaliation. This created a diminishing output of damage for the protoss, and a constant damage for the uneffected Terran army. In other words, because there was no combat at the army itself, the terrans were able to have a significant advantage.

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Originally Posted by Santrega

PS: I Don't want units that are best against buildings. When that happens Sc becomes just another RTS game.

I want all units to be able to effect buildings the same way, except the differences in attack damage. I think its ridiculous to say "oh zealots shouldnt have attacked that BUILDING, because they arent the right kind of unit for that".

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Nothing has changed from SC1 to SC2 in this regard. The only difference is that Terrans got more identity with the ability to increase armor of their buildings. You can increase armor of units so it's a natural and simple thing to test with.

The reason why Zealots are a rough choice is the same issue that exists from SC1. They are highly dependent on the upgrades of the dual attack unit and highly effected by the armor of the opponent. This is why Zealots with +0 upgrades did pathetic damage to a ultralisk with +3 (+2) armor in SC1. The example I provide isn't "perfect" due to the nature of no repairing on ultralisks, but it's the best example I can provide to help illustrate a point.

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Originally Posted by Santrega

Starcraft is better off without any sort of building enhancements and extra defense against certain units. It's simply not needed, since you have to use many different kinds of units to counter actual units. Why does it make sense to make killing buildings off harder?

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It has no more extra defense against dual-attack units as it does in SC1. Zealots without attack upgrades will be effected by armor more, there's nothing more to the point.

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Originally Posted by Raisk

Basically, the other player shouldn't have attacked the pf with that army, he should have pushed forward to the natural expansion, which was an orbital command. If he was able to take out David Kim's army there and then his attack would have been much more successful.

His army was wiped out due to strategic error.

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I agree with this simple point.