Re: Exercise 01: Establishing the Status Quo
on Duran: Didn't he let the Zerg destroy his base on Aiur, when they were after Raynor and Mengsk?
Possible scenarious:
1. he can control the Zerg, and made it look like he got infested. In this case, he can shape himself into anything, including an infested terran.
2. or took the chance to let himself be infested. In this case, he's possessed a body, and maintains control of it while being infected. Sounds like a huge risk to me. What if the Zerg just turned him into food?
3. He already has a copy of himself as an infested Zerg, and attacks his human clone.
On Nissa's Zerg idea:
As children, I'd agree with the theme you are seeing. It's not hard to pursue. The Overmind called itself and the Protoss as the creation of the Xel'Naga. I'm fine with the theme, where do you plan to go with their narrative given this backdrop?
On Nissa's XelNaga:
Space nerds are fine by me. They did exhibit this. I believe, though, that the nerds were the ones leading the expedition in the Korpulu, but there might be a Wayland in their home planet, or flotilla.
On Nissa's XelNaga vs Another Race:
I see this in our own world. Some secret few want to control everything, even their own kind; some want to have all the power, control or not, they're on top; Some just want to experience nature, and take some of nature home with them in their buckets; some just want to watch nature; some want the cool new things, and don't mind what damage they do to nature, animals; some want to manipulate DNA to grow ears on them, organs for their use.
I'll add Mr. Scott's Engineer's into the equation, and our own debates about trans-humanism and genetic engineering.
The perfect weapon is created, the Zerg, at least from the view of one faction among the Xel'Naga. To others this is proof eternal life can be achieved: if one can transfer one's consciousness in the network of consciousness through purity of essence, and live in perfect form, one has achieved eternal life.
Others see this as an abomination; others see this as meddling with things that shouldn't be meddled with, etc.
The Xel'Naga were viewed as gods, but they are not. They're ancient, but nothing new is under the galactic black sun. Death is inevitable, life is meaningless, maybe if we defeat death, we find meaning. But it's all vanity. Thus, starcraft.
Having a Xel'Naga with differing thoughts would make them more interesting. Why they wanted purity of essence, at least in their varying definitions of it, becomes a source of contention. Goes for purity of form as well.
Consider the Temple on Shakuras. It could have been made to wipe out their own creations if ever they had to. Either by necessity, or if something goes wrong. Or it could be some other faction's bomb waiting until the creation of the Xel'Naga ever succeeds -- a way out for someone else or themselves.
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What do you think? That's all I can add for now. Haven't got much sleep. I'll think more.
Re: Exercise 01: Establishing the Status Quo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Visions of Khas
Back in the day, I thought Duran might have been a gestalt entity; or had his personality "uploaded" into clones of different races.
That's true, but my point is that the fans had a lot more theories about Duran. Being a gestalt seemed a bit unlikely because Duran had called Zeratul a young prodigal. Remember, Zeratul was 650-ish years old, on the older end of Protoss. That Duran still considered him extremely young would imply the guy had to be hundreds of thousands of years old, it not more.
Re: Exercise 01: Establishing the Status Quo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GnaReffotsirk
on Duran: Didn't he let the Zerg destroy his base on Aiur, when they were after Raynor and Mengsk?
Possible scenarious:
1. he can control the Zerg, and made it look like he got infested. In this case, he can shape himself into anything, including an infested terran.
2. or took the chance to let himself be infested. In this case, he's possessed a body, and maintains control of it while being infected. Sounds like a huge risk to me. What if the Zerg just turned him into food?
3. He already has a copy of himself as an infested Zerg, and attacks his human clone.
I'd say Number 1. We don't even know what he was at the time but he seems powerful enough to pretend to be Kerrigan's pawn without her knowing his true nature.
Duran going AWOL and his faux reply to Stukov about the signal breaking up, seems to suggest that his allegiance was already with Kerrigan prior to this event (although he was most likely pretending this allegiance with Kerrigan). Kerrigan probably thought she had him mind-controlled, like she had with Raszagal perhaps?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GnaReffotsirk
Having a Xel'Naga with differing thoughts would make them more interesting. Why they wanted purity of essence, at least in their varying definitions of it, becomes a source of contention. Goes for purity of form as well.
This. If you're going into why they wanted the purity of form and essence, I'm assuming you're ditching the Xel'Naga rebirth cycle explanation given in the EU? Interesting. I can imagine the Xel'Naga as nerdy scientists bickering amongst each other (like most peers in the same scientific field) about which is more important and so on. It's curious to note that in Sc1, the concept of purity of essence is only referred to and talked about after the failure of the Protoss. It suggests that the Xel'Naga didn't have the "purity of essence" concept from the get-go nor that there was a dual/yin-yang relationship with each other to begin with. It could be that purity of essence was only specifically focussed on after the Protoss lost a quality that they weren't looking for/unware of at the time or rather, were taking for granted since they were happy with the Protoss as their perfect lifeform until their individuality ruined the innate strength of their communal link.
Either way, as long as they are not outright eeevillllllll/ the devil incarnate/ seeking to "destroy everything" for "reasons", it can only be an improvement.
Re: Exercise 01: Establishing the Status Quo
midi-chlorians. I want to keep the Xel'Naga story in the background. Just hinting them here and there. I want to focus on the conflict between the races, and Duran's hybrids.
Re: Exercise 01: Establishing the Status Quo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gna
midi-chlorians
Midichlorians, Duke...
Quote:
on Duran: Didn't he let the Zerg destroy his base on Aiur, when they were after Raynor and Mengsk?
Stukov comments that Duran's force was moved out of position. My best guess is that Duran had already been "infested" by Kerrigan, but to maintain the charade, Duran moved his forces so it didn't seem too suspicious when the Zerg ran directly through his camps without attacking.
Quote:
The perfect weapon is created, the Zerg, at least from the view of one faction among the Xel'Naga. To others this is proof eternal life can be achieved: if one can transfer one's consciousness in the network of consciousness through purity of essence, and live in perfect form, one has achieved eternal life.
This was my view. The Overmind probably saw its assimilation of the Xel'Naga as a fulfilling gift; he was taking his ancient creators along for the ride to complete their project.
Quote:
maybe if we defeat death, we find meaning. But it's all vanity. Thus, starcraft.
Reminds me of Asimov's The Last Question. :D
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Consider the Temple on Shakuras. It could have been made to wipe out their own creations if ever they had to. Either by necessity, or if something goes wrong. Or it could be some other faction's bomb waiting until the creation of the Xel'Naga ever succeeds -- a way out for someone else or themselves.
A campaign I wrote some years ago dealt with the Protoss unearthing Xel'Naga artifacts during the Aeon of Strife. While these technologies had benign or good intentions, the Protoss could only rain ruin in their ignorance. Essentially, mis-use of the Temple.
But I don't think the Xel'Naga were entirely altruistic. If they were -- if they never took steps to protect themselves from alien attack -- they probably would have never survived long enough to become a space-faring race.
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I want to keep the Xel'Naga story in the background. Just hinting them here and there. I want to focus on the conflict between the races, and Duran's hybrids.
I think this was Blizzard's original intent, too. And in the process of creating SCII, they wrote themselves into a corner because of their lack of forethought.
I think it's smart to keep them in the background, but it would help future developments to flesh them out in the beginning.
Re: Exercise 01: Establishing the Status Quo
Re: Exercise 01: Establishing the Status Quo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GnaReffotsirk
midi-chlorians. I want to keep the Xel'Naga story in the background. Just hinting them here and there. I want to focus on the conflict between the races, and Duran's hybrids.
Tell me GNA, when the hybrid was first introduced in Dark Origins, how much did you think it had some sort of tie in with the Xel'Naga?
Re: Exercise 01: Establishing the Status Quo
In what way, Rag? See, back then there was only the Xel'Naga that were the oldest race. Duran would automatically be part of that age. He could be a XN, or some other that belonged in the age of XN.
Immediately, I associated things, and thought Duran was recreating the Xel'Naga's initial goals. Now, with Zeratul's reaction, I got the thought that this design of his is a corrupt image of what the Xel'naga had in mind.
Why? See, Duran was shown to be deceptive, can infiltrate without being found out, as a terran then as an infested terran. And being deceptive during the course of the story was a theme that argued, "all deceptive people are bad, have their minds twisted, and do what the opposite of what they would have done if they were not corrupted."
Now, while Kerrigan and the matriarch were corrupted, Aldaris was the counterpoint: "Those who are true, and know the truth, ends up being betrayed." This happened to Fenix and Duke. They were not corrupt, they were loyal, and true to their word.
Now comes duran, with a voice echoing, almost electric, deep, and he's been deceptive, and have changed form, and speaks in cryptic tones, and Zeratul, the wise and being the one to silence Aldaris in the past with his lines, our actual point of view in the story, reacts like he's talking to a mad scientist.
All that combined tells me Duran is old and powerful, maybe Xel'Naga or at least someone who belongs during the era where the Xel'Naga were actively pursuing their goals. His creation here is an abomination because our point of view character tells us. It must look horrible, and as far as perfect in form has been implied, it doesn't mean like this. (Since the protoss were once deemed perfect in form and essence, but lost essence, a protoss saying something is an abomination means it's not actually perfect, at least in this case, our perspective through Zeratul).
I'd say, 100%.
Re: Exercise 01: Establishing the Status Quo
Bah, you post all this stuff on the day when I don't have access to internet....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GnaReffotsirk
on Duran: Didn't he let the Zerg destroy his base on Aiur, when they were after Raynor and Mengsk?
In my opinion, this is the crux of Duran's behavior. He'll use and throw away anyone anywhere.
Quote:
Possible scenarious:
1. he can control the Zerg, and made it look like he got infested. In this case, he can shape himself into anything, including an infested terran.
2. or took the chance to let himself be infested. In this case, he's possessed a body, and maintains control of it while being infected. Sounds like a huge risk to me. What if the Zerg just turned him into food?
3. He already has a copy of himself as an infested Zerg, and attacks his human clone.
This is where the books of quantum mechanics I've been reading start to kick in. So I was reading the chapter on teleportation, and quantum teleportation, as it is currently understood, is that atoms are all destroyed at location A (the place teleported from) and at location B (the destination) other particles are given the exact same characteristics as the destroyed copy. That is, Duran doesn't actually teleport, he is continually destroyed and rebuilt at various locations, by means of entangled atomic particles.
How this is usable in the story is that Duran is capable of either throwing or leaving behind in pre-determined locations quantum particles. Each place where he has these entangled particles represents a place where he can (a) teleport to if his life is threatened and (b) teleport but also manipulate how his particles on the other side rearrange themselves. So whenever he teleports, he can either remain the same, or take on a new identity, such as his infested form. Note that he should only be able to change shape whenever he teleports, so he can't simply stand in place and take on a new form (although he can basically do this if he left a quantum particle in a nearby location).
Duran's real self is a protected cluster of "qubits" (quantum "computer" particles) combined with his soul essence and whatever shell he happens to use to protect these qubits while he is not present. This location is entirely unknown, and given Duran's long lifespan and vast travels, could be anywhere by now.
Dude, I feel like I have leveled up my nerd skill. +1.
Quote:
On Nissa's Zerg idea:
As children, I'd agree with the theme you are seeing. It's not hard to pursue. The Overmind called itself and the Protoss as the creation of the Xel'Naga. I'm fine with the theme, where do you plan to go with their narrative given this backdrop?
That's kinda what I was hoping you guys would help me with....
Well, this could be the basis for the renegade cerebrate's mind. Like, this cerebrate has been working with the Overmind at times, and though it never doubted the Overmind's rightness in infesting Kerrigan, it believes that with the Overmind's death, his plans for Kerri has gone awry, and that it is his job, as the Overmind's last loyal cerebrate (or leader if we decide to go with more than one -- maybe the player character is a new strain of leader that is like a cerebrate, but weaker), is to subdue Kerrigan and either make her do what the cerebrate thinks the Overmind would want, or kill her. Whichever is easier.
Quote:
On Nissa's XelNaga:
Space nerds are fine by me. They did exhibit this. I believe, though, that the nerds were the ones leading the expedition in the Korpulu, but there might be a Wayland in their home planet, or flotilla.
Well, bear in mind that "space nerds" is a bit of a simplification. They're a long-lived race, so they'd be something between a nerd and an ancient sage.
Quote:
On Nissa's XelNaga vs Another Race:
I see this in our own world. Some secret few want to control everything, even their own kind; some want to have all the power, control or not, they're on top; Some just want to experience nature, and take some of nature home with them in their buckets; some just want to watch nature; some want the cool new things, and don't mind what damage they do to nature, animals; some want to manipulate DNA to grow ears on them, organs for their use.
I'll add Mr. Scott's Engineer's into the equation, and our own debates about trans-humanism and genetic engineering.
The perfect weapon is created, the Zerg, at least from the view of one faction among the Xel'Naga. To others this is proof eternal life can be achieved: if one can transfer one's consciousness in the network of consciousness through purity of essence, and live in perfect form, one has achieved eternal life.
Others see this as an abomination; others see this as meddling with things that shouldn't be meddled with, etc.
The Xel'Naga were viewed as gods, but they are not. They're ancient, but nothing new is under the galactic black sun. Death is inevitable, life is meaningless, maybe if we defeat death, we find meaning. But it's all vanity. Thus, starcraft.
Having a Xel'Naga with differing thoughts would make them more interesting. Why they wanted purity of essence, at least in their varying definitions of it, becomes a source of contention. Goes for purity of form as well.
Consider the Temple on Shakuras. It could have been made to wipe out their own creations if ever they had to. Either by necessity, or if something goes wrong. Or it could be some other faction's bomb waiting until the creation of the Xel'Naga ever succeeds -- a way out for someone else or themselves.
----------------------
What do you think? That's all I can add for now. Haven't got much sleep. I'll think more.
Well, in my mind, there wasn't a huge difference between another race and another faction. I was leaning towards another race because it's less like SC2, but at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter, because whether it's a race or a faction, the real difference is mental/philosophical rather than physical. Either way, I would prefer not to delve too deep, because in storytelling, especially video game storytelling, it's better to leave large story gaps for the audience to fill. Let's not answer that question, why not? We'll just have Duran or whoever talk about "masters" and "makers", and not specify too much what is what.
I don't like the "life is meaningless" philosophy angle. It would make more sense if they believed in meaning. The Xel'Naga themselves would believe that the meaning of life is life, and the study of it. They believe that the meaning of life is to learn how everything works, and because they are so powerful and long-lived, they believe that they will one day achieve this goal (this should be the aspect of the Xel'Naga most idealized by the 'Toss, imo). Duran's masters, on the other hand, should believe that it's important to go further -- not merely to learn about life, but to take that learning and focus the universe's beings into what they believe their knowledge reveals as the perfect way of life. They have a "Dao", so to speak. That meaning gives birth to Starcraft.
Re: Exercise 01: Establishing the Status Quo
That's an interesting parallel. How Duran creates hybrids, and your idea on how he can change his form, I mean.
Jesus in the bible was shown to be capable of such a feat. He would appear in multiple areas at once, his apostles would not recognize him by appearance, but by his ways and words. It's weird.
I have no idea if quantum teleportation is the method used, as per described today. Maybe it is possible to "pass through walls" in a sense, like how electricity works. You don't destroy information, rather, transfer it without cut-and-paste method. The current theory is too mechanical for my taste.
If we take the position that we are simply "borrowing" space-time as we exist, like moving images on an LCD screen, where each pixel is simply taken up as a space to project form, then we can essentially appear from one corner of the monitor to the other without going through the points in between them.
But I digress.
