Amon is just a name, Tura. All you have to do is change his reputation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
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Amon is just a name, Tura. All you have to do is change his reputation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Oh Great Ragnarok!!! Please, I beseech you! Communicate in a way that a lesser being such as I can know what in the fuck you are blathering about.
Amon is like an alien invasion in a walking dead episode.
This coming from a guy who said he put me on ignore.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEconomist
Explain a bit more please.Quote:
Originally Posted by GnaReffotsirk
I'll say one more riddle. :)
There is a psionic realm, as there is a void realm.
See that one made more sense (remember, not all of us got into The Walking Dead)Quote:
Originally Posted by GnaReffotsirk
Uh, you don't have to watch Walking Dead to know that an alien invasion is inappropriate on it.
Sounds hilarious, though.
Oh I know that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Overall Gna, if Blizzard hard to keep Amon in, at least they should have made him try to think a little more rationally. Too many villains all lost simply because they couldn't control their emotions.
A Kardashev Type IV civilization would be good for a sci-fi. However, Amon does not belong to any of the categories. What he represents is a spiritual being. He lives in a realm of energy, which creates a problem:
The prologue. How can they even get into that place without being ripped to shreds? Alarak saved Artanis from void energy, and that is only energy that comes from the temple. Them actually going into void energy? I'm lost.
What did they do in the prologue? How? I'm confused.
I just figured it was just an alternate dimension/pocket universe/whatever that just happens to have a lot of void energy in it and not that everything in that "realm" was made up of void energy. Meh.Quote:
Originally Posted by GnaReffotsirk
It wasn't void energy at all, but rather what Amon corrupted.Quote:
Originally Posted by GnaReffotsirk
Which makes me wonder about the Dark Templar and Tal'darim. Was all Void energy corrupted by Amon, and Dark templar only skim off small volumes of it to use? Or were portions of the Void left uncorrupted, and it was this fragmentary energy the DTs used?Quote:
It wasn't void energy at all, but rather what Amon corrupted.
I'm not convinced it was ALL of the Void, Ouros was being hypocritical. If Amon corrupted ALL of the Void, he should have been able to control the Nerazim and the Tal'darim factions as mindless slaves too, since both of them use Void energies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Visions of Khas
Because it does not work in the same way as the khala that uses the connection, in the lens of the void it is observed that whenever a dark templar uses the energies of void he is fighting against a voracious entity similar to taming a beast through discipline, amon Was there threatening, perhaps now that amon has disappeared this aggressive behavior of the void alsoQuote:
Originally Posted by ragnarok
Funny in hindsight that Aldaris called the dark templars energy profane and its usage as "most grievous of all". Guess he was right again.
You know, I never (purposefully) thought of that. Could it be that the series has been retconned so hard that it's come full circle to vindicate Aldaris? That's probably the only retconning that will actually make me think more deeply than previously in my next SC play through.
You don't know that. It was due to Amon's corruption, and it wasn't all the Void. That's why I hope future lore would explain the Void energy could be used for better purposes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
Ha, another reason to love Aldy. It's pretty funny how many people have started liking him better since SC2 came out. I used to do my SC character analysies, and he's gotten far less hate than before.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEconomist
The guy ultimately learned, but the Conclave he represented still remained a problem, and people still associate him to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
I think that's what Gradius is hinting at. Think about it, you wonder why the Conclave considered it evil to associate with dark templars. There is a reason why they try, as much as possible, to have their people, especially high templars, not have anything to do with them.
The conclave considers the ways of the Dark Templars to be somewhat evil. When Tassadar learned to use the dark templar energies, he has become a danger.
Now I know most people think this to only be a cultural thing, and Tassadar seem to blame the conclave's exclusion of the Dark templar on some pride. But when you look at it further back, there was a potential for disaster when the DTs where involved, especially pertaining to the use of their psionic abilities.
Yes, the Conclave's fear wasn't groundless. Without the Khala, the Dark Templar couldn't control the psionic storms. We all knew they eventually did learn how to control it even without the Khala later on, but that certainly wasn't the case back in 1500 A.D.Quote:
Originally Posted by GnaReffotsirk
Thus the Conclave felt that if the Dark Templar kept trying this, they could end up killing Khalai Protoss without even knowing it. So to want them removed from the picture certainly had its reasoning.
Oh, everyone's just copying me now is all. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
I've loved Aldaris right from the start. He's my favourite Protoss character in Sc1 (I never fawned over overrated Tassadar like most Protoss-lovers do :p) and that's not just because he's voiced by Paul Eiding either. He, like Mengsk and the Overmind, are the most complex characters (and therefore most difficult to "like" in the traditional sense) in Sc1.
Interesting. And here I thought you only did after the breakdown in the SC2 lore and looked back at the SC1 lore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Yeah everyone here has always loved Aldaris. Good luck telling people that he's an amazing character on the b.net forums.
The will of the Conclave is ABSOLUTE.
It's just another dictatorship. But then again, you can argue the same for democracy anyways, so I won't blame you for this Stratos.Quote:
Originally Posted by KaiserStratosTygo
Thank god! Stratos, you dodged a bullet! :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by ragnarok
Yeah well, this is hardly surprising since you're usually wrong when it comes to presuming what others think.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragnarok
Man, the delivery of the next line he says after this was boss: "Make peace with Adun!"Quote:
Originally Posted by KaiserStratosTygo
Oh that's nothing new as the Conclave praised Adun's actions in their belief he saved them from the Nerazim's actions for their unwillingness to accept the Khala.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
I love you Tura, but sometimes you say the weirdest things outta nowhere. Yes, Aldy is best 'Toss and yes, Mengskie-poo is complicated, but the Overmind? All he ever was was a giant eyeball that wanted to conquer everyone. He has no character depth. Sure, his motives are somewhat mysterious and interesting as a result, but he himself isn't terribly deep or complicated. In fact, one reason I dislike him is because he's on the boring side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
But Mengsk is marvelous as a baddie, I will say that.
That's because going by the SC1 lore, he thought his purpose was to assimilate everything, and in a way, misinterpreted the Xel'Naga's orders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
At it again are we, Rag? By that, I mean, making presumptions of other peoples intent and taking that as fact as what they were intending? Sorry to say this but please don't speak on behalf or for others because you're terrible at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragnarok
Either way, I fail to see how this (even if I did actually think this way) has anything to do with my thinking of it as a complex character. I have no idea what "misinterpreted the Xel'Naga's orders" is even supposed to be referring to since the Xel'Naga didn't give the Overmind an imperative beyond just it just merely being a representation of the gestalt consciousness of all Zerg.
Part of my charm, my dear. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
I'm not going to disagree here because you're right in some ways. However, in my defence I have to get a bit pedantic since I didn't exactly qualify what I meant when I said "complex" the first time. When I said "complex", I meant it in terms of the concept/idea of the character in and of itself. This is different from what you desribe as "complicated", which you are using to describe perceived "depth" of a character.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Still, if we want to talk about character depth, there is one interesting and unwholesome character quality that ties Aldaris, Mengsk and the Overmind together. It's that all of them are marked by hubris. The Overmind is especially ironic in this case because it unwittingly becomes a hypocrite and a victim of karmic retribution in pronouncing that the Protoss' "overweening pride be their downfall" because it turns out to be, retrospectively, foreshadowing it's own defeat because of it's over-confidence/overweening pride.
Oh, you were talking about themes, not characters.
Nah, I still can't see the Overmind as terribly interesting. He's not complex the same way Mengsk and Aldaris are, and I don't like the latter two because they're bad guys and "hard to like", I like them because they are complicated, and their moral levels are only an aspect of their complexity. That, and Aldaris' hubris isn't hubris so much as a belief in the Protoss, regardless of the Protoss' actual circumstances. Mengsk loves himself and only himself, and the Overmind is more accepting of issues the Swarm faces. Actually, since I put it that way, I don't think the Overmind is necessarily all about hubris. I think he just sees life as some sort of grand narrative wherein the Zerg are on a mystical quest of conquest which will eventually end in their victory.
....Okay, that's hubris.
Yes, but you'd think (even based on SC1 lore) that the Xel'Naga would have needed the Overmind to incorporate the Zerg characteristics into itself upon creation, which in turn meant the assimilation of species, and then the Overmind merely took this too far.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Aldaris followed what had been working for ages. But he seems to have an inquisitive nature. He gives you an opportunity to prove yourself, while doing his job if ever he was right, or you were wrong. He seems to like to give you a chance, or just let things run its course, not stall by argument and speculation, so as to execute actions that would be necessary.
1. He gave permission to assault the cerebrate by Tassadar's suggestion. Tassadar was an asshole for sending the executor here just to prove a point.
2. He allowed Zeratul to escape with Tassadar.
3. He allowed Artanis to be praetor. (Was artanis a rebel? Why does he have short tendrils?)
4. He submits himself to the Dark Templar's laws and customs.
5. He apparently knows the Conclave have been Tyrannical towards the Dark Templar.
And he says, "We shall see."
I don't mind this, it's a personal taste thing in the end anyways. What you see as mundane as tepid, others can see as being interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
I do agree that the Overmind is "not complex in the same way as Mengsk and Aldaris are" though, just not that because it is a different type of complex, that it's any less interesting to think about. Oh and I'm sorry if I inferred that you or that most people who liked these three were in any way "bad fans" (people who like characters because they are bad guys/unlikable) even though I know there are some who are actually such - not that I'm against them or anything, mind you. I didn't think I said or intended this at the time.
It's one of those "you say toma(r)to, I say tota(y)to" things, huh? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Still hubris though. Whether you consider that good or bad is up to you. Whatever it is, it still makes Aldaris a great character either way.
I like to be contrarian when it comes to interpreting Mengsk because the game allows it. Sure, Mengsk's final rant/reveal marks him as an unstable, selfish man (for all time?) and that previous hints at his impatience for those who resist him as a potential powder keg, but I'd like to think that this reveal doesn't overshadow all his previous actions that, moral, personal and psychological considerations aside, can be justified on a pragmatic, utilitarian level. Mengsk egomania feels more scary to me when I consider that his anger at Raynor is not about him being selfish but if Mengsk feels that he's being selfless. The "I will rule this sector or see it burnt to ashes around me" line is seen as a selfish tantrum-y threat of "it's I either do this or I will do that", but I sometimes like to consider it that Mengsk is stating that "I have to do this (rule the sector) or that other thing (seeing it burnt to ashes and not necessarily by his hand) would happen".Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
It's funny in a way that this last speech in The Hammer Falls forever damns Mengsk as being the "baddest of bad people" to most viewers (due to being forced into Raynor's perspective no doubt - Mengsk still is an idealistic rebel crusader even if he's "The Man" now, just not Raynor's concept of "idealistic"), whilst Aldaris' last speech in Eye of the Storm doesn't absolve him in the eyes of viewers. I guess people must like cateogrising people as villains since it's easier on them to do so.
Haha, now you're getting it! That's how I see the Overmind chapter in some ways (weakest as it is comparatively to the other Sc1 Episodes in terms of narrative/storytelling). Much as I am a Zerg fan, the grandiose, seemingly god-like Overmind who "respects" the Protoss as a worthwhile enemy but sees their pride as a weakness, really is unaware of its own hypocrisy/that it shares the same weakness. It's great because the game never hints at it so much, but it's there if you look for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to say here. According to original lore, the Xel'Naga already incorporated the "Zerg characteristics" into the Overmind upon it's creation as a means to help them maintain purity of essence (a lesson learnt from their failure with the Protoss) because it's, by design, the gestalt consciousness of the Zerg. It literally is the will of each and all the Zerg at the same time. Simpler still, it is the Zerg.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragnarok
True, but it seems like despite saying that, Aldaris has already convinced himself he'll be proven right in the end. I personally felt he was still very reluctant to admit error to Tassadar at the beginning of the "Eye of the Storm" mission.Quote:
Originally Posted by GnaReffotsirk
Maybe this was already said, but this comic is free on Amazon right now.
A bunch of the Overwatch comics are free right now too, if anyone cares.
I already read it online anyway, so it doesn't matter
There are other people in existence besides you, so yes, it does. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by ragnarok
That being said, it was free since it came out.