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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
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Originally Posted by EconoMyst
So, maybe I can change that. Is this kind of a return to SC1 roots now that the Amon trash is over? Is some of the old atmosphere back? If so, I'll probably take the plunge soon.
Mm, I'd say so. The slapstick and the Wild West are all gone. This is a good ol' fashion Terran-on-terran scenario. Yeah, we're retreading some old ground -- you'll definitely be taken back to Rebel Yell -- but overall I'm quite pleased with it. We have two multi-phase missions: the first goes from an installation escape to a high speed get away; and the third is a hold-out mission with some really neat gimmicks, and becomes an infiltration. You'll be able to customize Nova, as well. If you get all the available tech, you can change between classic stealth-assassin Ghost to urban warfare fighter.
Do I think it's worth the full price now? I'm not sure, there are a lot of high-quality maps on StarCraft II Mapster. That's what I expected and went ahead and broke my "No Pre-Order" rule, getting it for $15.
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
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Originally Posted by
TheEconomist
So, I've been wrestling with extreme apathy and haven't even bothered to download it.
So, maybe I can change that. Is this kind of a return to SC1 roots now that the Amon trash is over? Is some of the old atmosphere back? If so, I'll probably take the plunge soon.
It is better then the previous 3 sc2 campaigns, It plays uniquely but the story feels like a "return to roots"
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
i will a exosuit for a ghost :guay:
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Who cares if it came from Amon? He still did it to the Overmind, the Overmind was still the Zerg and since the Overmindis gone, any programming would have gone with it.
Also, this has nothing to do with you flip-flopping your opinion and making your position incomprehensible.
The whole point of the psionic attraction to terrans is because there might be those Kerrigan felt worthy to infest to make the proper 2nd in command for her (this is before she created the Broodmothers)
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Originally Posted by
Nolanstar
It is better then the previous 3 sc2 campaigns, It plays uniquely but the story feels like a "return to roots"
It's still not as dark compared to SC1 though. A little bit darker than WoL, though this time we get to see the picture in reverse: we get to see the Dominion's POV on the terrorist group, rather than the DoM's view.
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
The whole point of the psionic attraction to terrans is because there might be those Kerrigan felt worthy to infest to make the proper 2nd in command for her (this is before she created the Broodmothers)
Oh, I see now. You're making some fanon up and deciding to believe it's true without any basis. Should've said so.
Even if this were true, we're talking about the Zerg still being attracted to psionics as of events after Sc2, where neither Kerrigan nor the Overmind are there to have such influence over the Zerg. Why the Zerg are still attracted by Psi Emitters when they have no underlying reason for still doing so, is stil left unanswered.
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Oh, I see now. You're making some fanon up and deciding to believe it's true without any basis. Should've said so.
Even if this were true, we're talking about the Zerg still being attracted to psionics as of events after Sc2, where neither Kerrigan nor the Overmind are there to have such influence over the Zerg. Why the Zerg are still attracted by Psi Emitters when they have no underlying reason for still doing so, is stil left unanswered.
It's not made up in what you think. During the 4 years between BW and WoL, clearly Kerrigan learned Duran wasn't who he said he was, and likely she felt he played her for a fool, hence the need to personally create a 2nd in command who won't betray her.
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
The psi emitter thing doesn't worry me much. I wrote them off as phlebotinum back when we used Psi Emitters to somehow allow Kerrigan to control the Zerg when the Psi Disrupter was deactivated, except we had to have an SCV carry the Emitter around to feral Zerg that suddenly Kerrigan could control once the Emitter was in range.
And what really kills me with that mission is how simply they could have rewritten it for it to all make sense.
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
I'm pretty sure the idea that psi emitters only work because the Overmind was looking for psychic humans is just fanon. All we know for a fact is that "zerg are attuned to the psionic emanations of ghosts" and psi emitters transmit psionic signals across worlds. If they only work because the Overmind is looking for ghosts, they wouldn't have worked at all in the BW. Baby Overmind is not the same character as the original Overmind, and the zerg switched their attention away from looking for psychic terrans right after they found Kerrigan.
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Originally Posted by
Drake Clawfang
The psi emitter thing doesn't worry me much. I wrote them off as phlebotinum back when we used Psi Emitters to somehow allow Kerrigan to control the Zerg when the Psi Disrupter was deactivated, except we had to have an SCV carry the Emitter around to feral Zerg that suddenly Kerrigan could control once the Emitter was in range.
And what really kills me with that mission is how simply they could have rewritten it for it to all make sense.
What about it doesn't make sense? The psi disruptor disrupts communication with the hive mind, and psi emitters amplify it. They're actually just simple devices with opposite functions. The psi emitters just allowed her to cancel out the effects of the disruptor so she could knock it out. And Kerrigan already controls zerg from lightyears away, so it doesn't really matter who carries the emitters; Kerrigan doesn't have to physically be there.
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
The psi emitters are supposed to lure Zerg to their signals. In fact, the dialogue in that mission implies you'd have to lure the Zerg to your base to exert control over them. Instead it acts like "bring the Emitter to the Zerg to control them." Not to mention that, once the Disruptor was shut down, the need for the Emitters either way should be gone.
My way to simply rewrite it would be that even with the disrupter shut down, the latent signals it put out are making it difficult to control Zerg on Braxis, and Kerrigan doesn't want to risk sending her Broods to the planet in case she loses control of them. A Psi Emitter will give Kerrigan a focus for her powers to take control of feral Zerg - the Emitter is like a beacon that Kerrigan can sense easier, and the SCV can thus be a mobile focus for her powers and goes out to find Zerg for her.
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
I'm pretty sure the idea that psi emitters only work because the Overmind was looking for psychic humans is just fanon. All we know for a fact is that "zerg are attuned to the psionic emanations of ghosts" and psi emitters transmit psionic signals across worlds.
Keep in mind the source of where this information comes from. It's from a limited perspective - the Terran perspective. The Terrans know that Zerg are attuned to psionics but not the why of it. Since the audience member is more clued into the situation and know about the history of the Zerg and the Overmind's intent, it's strongly suggested that the Overmind is the most likely answer. Sure, you can still deride it as fanon for us to assume that this is so but it's a better guess than the Terrans because we know more about the circumstances than they do.
It's kinda like how Mengsk attributes the Zerg as a weapons test/creation of the Confederates. The audience knows he's wrong because the audience has priveleged information that Mengsk does not. Also, Terrans can be wrong about the nature of certain technologies as evidenced in LotV, where Karax "corrects" the Terrans misinterpretations in WoL of what the Keystone was and was not capable of. Just because Terrans can observe that Zerg are being attracted to psionics, doesn't mean that Zerg are inherently attracted to them.
Besides, if we can't take implicit cues as being acceptable reasons for things,then we shouldn't really be complaining about the Overmind retcon in general because the Overmind's metaphysical free will was only implicitly suggested... :p
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
If they only work because the Overmind is looking for ghosts, they wouldn't have worked at all in the BW. Baby Overmind is not the same character as the original Overmind, and the zerg switched their attention away from looking for psychic terrans right after they found Kerrigan.
Well, the Psi Emitters in BW don't work exactly like they did in Sc1 afterall. This could be attributed to the fact that the baby Overmind is not in full power over the Swarm nor completely conscious but is still wanting to find a psionic individual since Kerrigan is not under the control of this baby Overmind yet. The Zerg, under some feeble control of this new Overmind, are still somewhat attracted to psionic emanations but only to a limited degree. The difference in the state of the Overmind between Sc1 and BW may further explain why the Emitters have to be so close to the Zerg in BW whereas one could attract Zerg from great distances before n SC1
The reason why I can speculate on this at all is because we don't know the parameters and motivation of this baby neo-Overmind.
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
I'm pretty sure the idea that psi emitters only work because the Overmind was looking for psychic humans is just fanon. All we know for a fact is that "zerg are attuned to the psionic emanations of ghosts" and psi emitters transmit psionic signals across worlds. If they only work because the Overmind is looking for ghosts, they wouldn't have worked at all in the BW. Baby Overmind is not the same character as the original Overmind, and the zerg switched their attention away from looking for psychic terrans right after they found Kerrigan.
But is that only because the Overmind willed it because he knew the infestation would be successful on her?
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Oh, I see now. You're making some fanon up and deciding to believe it's true without any basis. Should've said so.
Even if this were true, we're talking about the Zerg still being attracted to psionics as of events after Sc2, where neither Kerrigan nor the Overmind are there to have such influence over the Zerg. Why the Zerg are still attracted by Psi Emitters when they have no underlying reason for still doing so, is stil left unanswered.
I strongly prefer having such "little" question marks over a situation in which there would be no place for controversy, or at least speculation.
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
I will pipe up and say that yeah, some explanation of the psi emitters would be nice. It does seem clear in SC that the psi emitters attract the Zerg purely because of their desire for a psychic. It's the explanation that makes the most sense.
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
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Originally Posted by
Drake Clawfang
The psi emitters are supposed to lure Zerg to their signals. In fact, the dialogue in that mission implies you'd have to lure the Zerg to your base to exert control over them. Instead it acts like "bring the Emitter to the Zerg to control them."
That's gameplay vs. lore segregation. Did you really want to play that mission with zerg chasing your SCV back to your base? The emitters still do what they always do according to the lore/dialog, lure zerg to their signals.
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Originally Posted by
Drake Clawfang
Not to mention that, once the Disruptor was shut down, the need for the Emitters either way should be gone.
They cut the primary power generator. There's going to be other secondary generators.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Keep in mind the source of where this information comes from. It's from a limited perspective - the Terran perspective. The Terrans know that Zerg are attuned to psionics but not the why of it. Since the audience member is more clued into the situation and know about the history of the Zerg and the Overmind's intent, it's strongly suggested that the Overmind is the most likely answer. Sure, you can still deride it as fanon for us to assume that this is so but it's a better guess than the Terrans because we know more about the circumstances than they do.
It's kinda like how Mengsk attributes the Zerg as a weapons test/creation of the Confederates. The audience knows he's wrong because the audience has priveleged information that Mengsk does not. Also, Terrans can be wrong about the nature of certain technologies as evidenced in LotV, where Karax "corrects" the Terrans misinterpretations in WoL of what the Keystone was and was not capable of. Just because Terrans can observe that Zerg are being attracted to psionics, doesn't mean that Zerg are inherently attracted to them.
Besides, if we can't take implicit cues as being acceptable reasons for things,then we shouldn't really be complaining about the Overmind retcon in general because the Overmind's metaphysical free will was only implicitly suggested... :p
That's fine but it's just not a theory that fits the facts. The zerg switched from hunting for psionic terrans at the end of the terran campaign. You have to do some serious mental gymnastics to explain why the emitters still work after the Overmind is dead or after they're not even looking for terrans anymore. The much simpler theory is that zerg are simply attracted to psi emitters, whether it's Kerrigan or a random ghost channeling into them or not.
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Well, the Psi Emitters in BW don't work exactly like they did in Sc1 afterall. This could be attributed to the fact that the baby Overmind is not in full power over the Swarm nor completely conscious but is still wanting to find a psionic individual since Kerrigan is not under the control of this baby Overmind yet. The Zerg, under some feeble control of this new Overmind, are still somewhat attracted to psionic emanations but only to a limited degree. The difference in the state of the Overmind between Sc1 and BW may further explain why the Emitters have to be so close to the Zerg in BW whereas one could attract Zerg from great distances before n SC1
The reason why I can speculate on this at all is because we don't know the parameters and motivation of this baby neo-Overmind.
Meh. I can't prove it wrong obviously, but it just seems like stretching to me due to the reasons above.
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
I will pipe up and say that yeah, some explanation of the psi emitters would be nice. It does seem clear in SC that the psi emitters attract the Zerg purely because of their desire for a psychic. It's the explanation that makes the most sense.
SC1 makes it pretty clear that zerg are just attracted to psi emitters. There's no need to make things more complicated than they need to be.
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
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SC1 makes it pretty clear that zerg are just attracted to psi emitters. There's no need to make things more complicated than they need to be.
I agree. Hence my confusion on why you guys are bothering to argue about this.
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
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Originally Posted by Nissa
Hence my confusion on why you guys are bothering to argue about this.
Hi. You seem new around here. That guy over there? Yeah, that's Gradius.
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
I will pipe up and say that yeah, some explanation of the psi emitters would be nice. It does seem clear in SC that the psi emitters attract the Zerg purely because of their desire for a psychic. It's the explanation that makes the most sense.
Hence the reason why the defenders of man needed ghosts. If you had read Liberty's Crusade, it was explained that the psi emitters to destroy the Confederacy on Antiga Prime wouldn't have worked without Kerrigan present.
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
That's fine but it's just not a theory that fits the facts. The zerg switched from hunting for psionic terrans at the end of the terran campaign. You have to do some serious mental gymnastics to explain why the emitters still work after the Overmind is dead or after they're not even looking for terrans anymore. The much simpler theory is that zerg are simply attracted to psi emitters, whether it's Kerrigan or a random ghost channeling into them or not.
The Zerg still being attracted to emitters "after the Overmind is dead or after they're not even looking for terrans anymore" is a problem that originates in BW (that and the emitters somehow gain the inexplicable ability to convert Zerg into Kerrigan's control :confused:). Sc1 and it's manual gives us the reason why the Zerg are attracted to psionics only to have BW seemingly say "nope, there's no reason for the attraction really. It just is". Amongst other things regarding the treatment of the Zerg in BW, this "fact" assists in rendering everything to do with the Zerg race in BW into nothing more than mere plot device (I can at least take some solace that they sort of won at the end of BW :p).
However, the fact that a neo-Overmind exists at all in BW actually helps alleviate this problem since it helps to maintain the actual reason behind the Zerg attraction to psionics. That the attraction of the Zerg to the emitters is noticeably weaker in BW matches with the weakness of the neo-Overmind. No mental gymnastics involved here and still in keeping with the "facts" available.
Now, we have the new Nova missions presenting the very same problem again but this time with no perceivable out... yet.
Either way, the reasoning behind saying that it's correct and OK that the Zerg was always just attracted to the Psi emitter for no reason (even when there was one in Sc1, with an 'out' in BW) because Covert Ops says so is akin to saying that it's correct and OK that the Overmind was always metaphysically enslaved because WoL says so. And yet, I believe you would disagree with the latter and not the former. Curious.
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
The Zerg still being attracted to emitters "after the Overmind is dead or after they're not even looking for terrans anymore" is a problem that originates in BW (that and the emitters somehow gain the inexplicable ability to convert Zerg into Kerrigan's control :confused:).
There's no problem. Kerrigan already controls zerg and can convert zerg to her control. The psi emitters are needed to cancel out the effects of the psi disruptor, which are preventing her from doing so. They're two devices with opposite yet simple functions: one enhances zerg signals, the other weakens them.
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Sc1 and it's manual gives us the reason why the Zerg are attracted to psionics only to have BW seemingly say "nope, there's no reason for the attraction really. It just is".
Where does BW say that? Kerrigan is channeling hive-mind orders through the emitter to lure zerg away from the psi disruptor's signal. Why wouldn't zerg respond to Kerrigan's orders?
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However, the fact that a neo-Overmind exists at all in BW actually helps alleviate this problem since it helps to maintain the actual reason behind the Zerg attraction to psionics.
If "the actual reason behind the Zerg attraction to psionics" is "they're looking for a terran psychic" that's actually a whole new host of problems considering they've stopped doing that last game and the character that instigated this motivation is dead.
How is this supposed to work exactly anyway? The baby Overmind is sending out orders to hunt for terran psychics when it's not even grown and has much bigger problems like the disruptor, or the UED pacifying it with drugs? Wouldn't its mental bandwidth be better spent on uniting the swarms, retaking control of Kerrigan, or otherwise securing its position? If you're saying the orders to hunt for human psychics is a vestigial genetic memory from the old Overmind, wouldn't that be highly inefficient to have the swarm led by a character that's not even conscious? Isn't this contradicted by the fact that Daggoth is taking temporary control of the swarm in the baby Overmind's stead? Why would Daggoth care about finding more psychic humans? He has bigger problems and can't control the one psychic human that's already in the swarm.
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That the attraction of the Zerg to the emitters is noticeably weaker in BW matches with the weakness of the neo-Overmind. No mental gymnastics involved here and still in keeping with the "facts" available.
...or it's due to the psi disruptor. Much simple explanation and in fact the whole point of the plot device.
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Now, we have the new Nova missions presenting the very same problem again but this time with no perceivable out... yet.
The out is the same as in SC1, that "zerg are attuned to the psionic emanations of ghosts". It's just natural, and the reason why Kerrigan became such a powerful leader when infested.
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Either way, the reasoning behind saying that it's correct and OK that the Zerg was always just attracted to the Psi emitter for no reason (even when there was one in Sc1, with an 'out' in BW) because Covert Ops says so is akin to saying that it's correct and OK that the Overmind was always metaphysically enslaved because WoL says so. And yet, I believe you would disagree with the latter and not the former. Curious.
So now I have to buy into every random hypothesis that someone presents even though there are simpler explanations, or else I'm being hypocritical in not wanting jarring 180-degree retcons? Come on... I don't think that's how it works. :P
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
So now I have to buy into every random hypothesis that someone presents even though there are simpler explanations, or else I'm being hypocritical in not wanting jarring 180-degree retcons? Come on... I don't think that's how it works. :P
Gradius, at some point you have to start seeing which retcons are minor are which are just too much
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
There's no problem.
The "problem" (a word I wish to use lightly since "point of contention" is probably more accurate) I'm referrring to is in regards to the reason to why the Zerg are attracted to psionics, as established in Sc1, is being ignored in BW.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
The psi emitters are needed to cancel out the effects of the psi disruptor, which are preventing her from doing so. They're two devices with opposite yet simple functions: one enhances zerg signals, the other weakens them.
Thanks for establishing that the retcon occurs in BW. The Psi-Emitters in Sc1 do not enhance Zerg signals, they enhance a Ghost's psionic emanations and that's all.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Where does BW say that?
It doesn't but I'm trying to make you see that that's the basis of your argument. You're the one saying that Zerg have no reason to be attracted to psionics beyond just merely being attracted to them innately and using the info provided by the later entry that is BW to support that notion.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Kerrigan is channeling hive-mind orders through the emitter to lure zerg away from the psi disruptor's signal.
"Where does BW say that?" I can do that, too! :p
Sure, you can say that that's implied from what we have but what makes this implication stronger than the first "implied" (which I would refute and say established) notion that the Zerg were only attracted to psionics because of the Overmind? All you've established is that BW provided an additive retcon.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
If "the actual reason behind the Zerg attraction to psionics" is "they're looking for a terran psychic" that's actually a whole new host of problems considering they've stopped doing that last game and the character that instigated this motivation is dead.
Exactly! That's why I initially used the word "problem" to describe it when BW just suddenly shows the Zerg are still attracted for no apparent reason when the already established reason is now gone. One has to fanon that Zerg were just innately attracted to psionics to begin with to justify it and there's a logical fallacy there in having to do that.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
How is this supposed to work exactly anyway? The baby Overmind is sending out orders to hunt for terran psychics when it's not even grown and has much bigger problems like the disruptor, or the UED pacifying it with drugs? Wouldn't its mental bandwidth be better spent on uniting the swarms, retaking control of Kerrigan, or otherwise securing its position? If you're saying the orders to hunt for human psychics is a vestigial genetic memory from the old Overmind, wouldn't that be highly inefficient to have the swarm led by a character that's not even conscious? Isn't this contradicted by the fact that Daggoth is taking temporary control of the swarm in the baby Overmind's stead? Why would Daggoth care about finding more psychic humans? He has bigger problems and can't control the one psychic human that's already in the swarm.
The precise details of how this conceit works, whilst interesting to speculate on, are moot. It's all plot-devicey in the end. It will suffice that the concept of a neo-Overmind has no precedent (like I said in an earlier post, it's weakened state could easily explain why the Zerg are not attracted to the Psi-emitters in the same way as they did in Sc1) such that it provides an "out" that keeps it consistent with what came before in Sc1.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
...or it's due to the psi disruptor. Much simple explanation and in fact the whole point of the plot device.
It's never really established that the Psi-disruptor is the reason why the Psi emitter is not as effective as before. One can only imply. But then we're now comparing one implied thing with another. Given that both the neo-Overmind and the Psi Disruptor are both plot devices that come out in BW, it's difficult to prioritise which of these is the greater implied effect in the change to the Zerg attraction to psionics. I'm of the mind of using what was established previously, which the neo-Overmind hearkens back to.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
The out is the same as in SC1, that "zerg are attuned to the psionic emanations of ghosts".
No, it's not. There is a reason the Zerg are "attuned to the psionic emanations of ghosts", a reason that is somewhat denied starting from BW and now apparently completely denied (although it remains to be seen since it's not finished, so I can concede this) in Covert Ops.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
So now I have to buy into every random hypothesis that someone presents even though there are simpler explanations, or else I'm being hypocritical in not wanting jarring 180-degree retcons? Come on... I don't think that's how it works. :P
But... that's what you're seemingly doing. You're buying into the random hypothesis that the Zerg have no inherent reason for being attracted to psionics (because they just are/do) because a later entry suggests this is so but not buying into the random hypothesis that the Overmind may not have been metaphysically free because a later entry suggests this is so.
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
The "problem" (a word I wish to use lightly since "point of contention" is probably more accurate) I'm referrring to is in regards to the reason to why the Zerg are attracted to psionics, as established in Sc1, is being ignored in BW.
Thanks for establishing that the retcon occurs in BW. The Psi-Emitters in Sc1 do not enhance Zerg signals, they enhance a Ghost's psionic emanations and that's all.
Same exact thing. If zerg are attuned to the psionic emanations of ghosts, it's a zerg signal. Their function is in the name: transplanar psionic waveform emitter. The terrans don't have an Infested Kerrigan to channel a psionic signal, so what's the retcon again?
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It doesn't but I'm trying to make you see that that's the basis of your argument. You're the one saying that Zerg have no reason to be attracted to psionics beyond just merely being attracted to them innately and using the info provided by the later entry that is BW to support that notion.
So where's the retcon/problem?
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Exactly! That's why I initially used the word "problem" to describe it when BW just suddenly shows the Zerg are still attracted for no apparent reason when the already established reason is now gone. One has to fanon that Zerg were just innately attracted to psionics to begin with to justify it and there's a logical fallacy there in having to do that.
Again, all we know for a fact is that "zerg are attuned to the psionic emanations of ghosts" and psi emitters reach across worlds. That's the only thing SC1 says on the subject.
So now pure facts from the game are "fanon", but the hypothesis that it's actually the Overmind ordering zerg to hunt down psionic humans is somehow a legit theory, even though he's dead in BW yet the psi emitters work anyway. How?
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The precise details of how this conceit works, whilst interesting to speculate on, are moot. It's all plot-devicey in the end. It will suffice that the concept of a neo-Overmind has no precedent (like I said in an earlier post, it's weakened state could easily explain why the Zerg are not attracted to the Psi-emitters in the same way as they did in Sc1) such that it provides an "out" that keeps it consistent with what came before in Sc1.
If you're going to nitpick psi emitters' ability to broadcast zerg-attracting signals, I think it's only fair that an explanation be given for how a dead character's defunct motives still manage to influence zerg, as that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
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It's never really established that the Psi-disruptor is the reason why the Psi emitter is not as effective as before. One can only imply. But then we're now comparing one implied thing with another. Given that both the neo-Overmind and the Psi Disruptor are both plot devices that come out in BW, it's difficult to prioritise which of these is the greater implied effect in the change to the Zerg attraction to psionics. I'm of the mind of using what was established previously, which the neo-Overmind hearkens back to.
The psi emitters are what Kerrigan uses to counteract the effects of the disruptor:
"Remember the Confederate Psi Disrupter that you could never find? Well, the UED found it. And it's preventing me from controlling my minions. With the help of your Psi Emitters, I can gather up enough Zerg to destroy the Disrupter and confront the UED."
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No, it's not. There is a reason the Zerg are "attuned to the psionic emanations of ghosts", a reason that is somewhat denied starting from BW and now apparently completely denied (although it remains to be seen since it's not finished, so I can concede this) in Covert Ops.
But... that's what you're seemingly doing. You're buying into the random hypothesis that the Zerg have no inherent reason for being attracted to psionics (because they just are/do) because a later entry suggests this is so but not buying into the random hypothesis that the Overmind may not have been metaphysically free because a later entry suggests this is so.
If you could provide evidence that the "later entry" contradicts the earlier entry, this would be a valid argument. But the idea that zerg are only attracted to the psionic emanations of ghosts because the Overmind said so is fanon.
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But... that's what you're seemingly doing. You're buying into the random hypothesis that the Zerg have no inherent reason for being attracted to psionics (because they just are/do) because a later entry suggests this is so but not buying into the random hypothesis that the Overmind may not have been metaphysically free because a later entry suggests this is so.
False analogy. SC1 never implies/states the Overmind lacked free will, but it did explain how psi emitters work and that explanation is pretty consistent with BW.
This argument is essentially a cop-out and can be applied to anything. Maybe you should buy into my theory that Raynor is a Xel'Naga. There are implicit cues everywhere, and if we can't take implicit cues as fact now, well, then you shouldn't complain about the Overmind retcon either because the Overmind's metaphysical free will was only implicitly suggested. See how ridiculous that sounds?
-
Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Same exact thing. If zerg are attuned to the psionic emanations of ghosts, it's a zerg signal.
Huh? So you're saying that what is actually nothing more than an amplified Ghost signal, is a "Zerg signal" just because Zerg happen to be attracted to it. Ok.... Guess it makes sense then to call something, say music, that I'm attracted to, a "Turalyon signal"? :p
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
So where's the retcon/problem?
That BW shows Zerg still being attracted to psionic emanations without an explanation when the reason for that attraction no longer exists. The reason you give, "they always were (with or without the Overmind)" has no basis until BW itself supplies you with information in that the game shows the Zerg still being attracted. This is the same exact reasoning for those who excuse the Overmind retcon in WoL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Again, all we know for a fact is that "zerg are attuned to the psionic emanations of ghosts" and psi emitters reach across worlds. That's the only thing SC1 says on the subject.
Yes, but the Terrans don't actually know the "why" of it. We do because we've played the Zerg campaign and read the BG history of the Overmind's motivation to capture a psionic. The Zerg are attracted to the emitters not because they just inherently are, but because it was the motivation of the underlying intelligence that was guiding the Zerg.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
So now pure facts from the game are "fanon", but the hypothesis that it's actually the Overmind ordering zerg to hunt down psionic humans is somehow a legit theory, even though he's dead in BW yet the psi emitters work anyway. How?
The problem here is the fact that the psi emitters are still working in BW, when they shouldn't be! Like the problem being the fact that the Overmind was metaphysically enslaved as revealed in WoL, when it shouldn't have been!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
If you're going to nitpick psi emitters' ability to broadcast zerg-attracting signals
You're misunderstanding the intent of my position it seems. I'm not questioning why a psionic emitter would or would not work in giving off an amplified Ghost signal, but challenging your self-assumed notion that the Zerg are innately attracted to psionics for NO REASON. What you refer to as "zerg-attracting signals" are merely amplified Ghost signals. That the Zerg are attracted to them is incidental.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
The psi emitters are what Kerrigan uses to counteract the effects of the disruptor
This naturally implies that the psi emitters should not be affected by the Disruptor... unless you're now saying that it's a weak counter, but then that's a further assumption with no basis. That the Psi emitters effectiveness is clearly different from before (it's much weaker) as a result of the disruptors presence requires more "mental gymnastics" to justify (where does one even begin to look?) than the established reason for any attraction at all is because the Overmind was present then in Sc1 and that the attraction is still present but much more limited now in BW because there's an immature neo-Overmind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
If you could provide evidence that the "later entry" contradicts the earlier entry, this would be a valid argument. But the idea that zerg are only attracted to the psionic emanations of ghosts because the Overmind said so is fanon.
Only if you can provide evidence that the Overmind was metaphysically free in Sc1. One can't, because it's implicit.
Just as you and I would rail against the Overmind retcon (keep in mind that my use of the term "retcon" does not include acknowledging whether a contradiction exists or not since additive retcon do not contradict and are still termed retcons) in WoL based on the "fanon"/implied cues that the Overmind is metaphysically free, I'm railing against why the Zerg are still being attracted to psionics retcon in Covert Ops (and BW to an extent) based on the "fanon"/implicit cues (found in the manual and then explored in the Zerg campaign) that the Overmind is the reason for such an attraction, who actually happens to be no longer around now. I'm being consistent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
This argument is essentially a cop-out and can be applied to anything.
What you're failing to understand is that the reason for why the Zerg are attracted to psionic emanations is because the Zerg/Overmind is looking for them is the first implicit cue and takes precedence, not that the Zerg (with/without the Overmind) are attracted innately to psionic emanations at all times.
All we know about the Psi-emitters comes solely from the limited perspective of Terrans - who can be wrong and are known to be biased. All that the Terrans really know and observe is that the Zerg are attracted to Ghost psionic emanations. It's a whole other thing to then assume and make the conclusion that why they are attracted to them at all is because they just naturally are in all cases forevermore. Case in point is when Raynor finds caged Zerg in Confedrate holdings in the lab on Antiga and Mengsk then naturally assumes the Zerg were created by the Confeds and bred them as some part of conspiracy to takeover the sector. Mengsk is somewhat right but he's making the wrong conclusion based on his limited perspective. We, the audience, know more and have a wider perspective than he does. Also, in LotV, even Karax corrects the assumptions of the Terrans conclusions about what the Keystone/artifact is capable of in WoL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Maybe you should buy into my theory that Raynor is a Xel'Naga.
I came up with a similar theory (that humans were really amnesiac, timetravelling future Xel'Naga) way back when to mock the Overmind retcon in WoL setting up a bad precedent for future lore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
There are implicit cues everywhere, and if we can't take implicit cues as fact now, well, then you shouldn't complain about the Overmind retcon either because the Overmind's metaphysical free will was only implicitly suggested. See how ridiculous that sounds?
Ahh, but I would only do this if I adopted your position since I've established that what you deem as "implicit" regarding why the Zerg are attracted to psionics is incorrect.
-
Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Huh? So you're saying that what is actually nothing more than an amplified Ghost signal, is a "Zerg signal" just because Zerg happen to be attracted to it. Ok.... Guess it makes sense then to call something, say music, that I'm attracted to, a "Turalyon signal"? :p
Yes, that's essentially what "zerg are attuned to the psionic emanations of ghosts" means. The zerg response to ghosts is inherent. No other explanation is needed.
Quote:
That BW shows Zerg still being attracted to psionic emanations without an explanation when the reason for that attraction no longer exists. The reason you give, "they always were (with or without the Overmind)" has no basis until BW itself supplies you with information in that the game shows the Zerg still being attracted.
SC1 explains how it works. Zerg are attuned to ghost signals. Psi emitters send that signal across worlds. BW doesn't change that.
Quote:
Yes, but the Terrans don't actually know the "why" of it. We do because we've played the Zerg campaign and read the BG history of the Overmind's motivation to capture a psionic. The Zerg are attracted to the emitters not because they just inherently are, but because it was the motivation of the underlying intelligence that was guiding the Zerg.
Except none of those things actually say that. Just because you have a hypothesis doesn't make it right.
Quote:
You're misunderstanding the intent of my position it seems. I'm not questioning why a psionic emitter would or would not work in giving off an amplified Ghost signal, but challenging your self-assumed notion that the Zerg are innately attracted to psionics for NO REASON. What you refer to as "zerg-attracting signals" are merely amplified Ghost signals. That the Zerg are attracted to them is incidental.
I'm literally quoting the game. You can refer to the signals as whatever you want.
Quote:
This naturally implies that the psi emitters should not be affected by the Disruptor... unless you're now saying that it's a weak counter, but then that's a further assumption with no basis. That the Psi emitters effectiveness is clearly different from before (it's much weaker) as a result of the disruptors presence requires more "mental gymnastics" to justify (where does one even begin to look?) than the established reason for any attraction at all is because the Overmind was present then in Sc1 and that the attraction is still present but much more limited now in BW because there's an immature neo-Overmind.
It requires mental gymnastics to understand that they're opposite devices that can counteract each other? Sorry, we'll just have to disagree. It's an extremely easy concept.
Quote:
Only if you can provide evidence that the Overmind was metaphysically free in Sc1. One can't, because it's implicit.
Just as you and I would rail against the Overmind retcon (keep in mind that my use of the term "retcon" does not include acknowledging whether a contradiction exists or not since additive retcon do not contradict and are still termed retcons) in WoL based on the "fanon"/implied cues that the Overmind is metaphysically free, I'm railing against why the Zerg are still being attracted to psionics retcon in Covert Ops (and BW to an extent) based on the "fanon"/implicit cues (found in the manual and then explored in the Zerg campaign) that the Overmind is the reason for such an attraction, who actually happens to be no longer around now. I'm being consistent.
False analogy. SC1 explains how emitters work. You don't get to cop-out to ignorance when the game gives you an explanation. Not the case with the Overmind retcon.
Quote:
What you're failing to understand is that the reason for why the Zerg are attracted to psionic emanations is because the Zerg/Overmind is looking for them is the first implicit cue and takes precedence, not that the Zerg (with/without the Overmind) are attracted innately to psionic emanations at all times.
Why should I buy your "implicit cue" when the game gives its own explanation and your cue would end up creating a plothole in BW? Occam's razor. My theory makes the fewest assumptions, therefore your hypothesis loses out, not just because it makes absolutely no sense for zerg to still follow a defunct order from a dead character. I don't begrudge you having a hypotheses, it just needs to fit facts.
Quote:
All we know about the Psi-emitters comes solely from the limited perspective of Terrans - who can be wrong and are known to be biased. All that the Terrans really know and observe is that the Zerg are attracted to Ghost psionic emanations. It's a whole other thing to then assume and make the conclusion that why they are attracted to them at all is because they just naturally are in all cases forevermore. Case in point is when Raynor finds caged Zerg in Confedrate holdings in the lab on Antiga and Mengsk then naturally assumes the Zerg were created by the Confeds and bred them as some part of conspiracy to takeover the sector. Mengsk is somewhat right but he's making the wrong conclusion based on his limited perspective. We, the audience, know more and have a wider perspective than he does. Also, in LotV, even Karax corrects the assumptions of the Terrans conclusions about what the Keystone/artifact is capable of in WoL.
Another false analogy. The manual gave us a clear history of the zerg and their coming to the k-sector. Actual dramatic irony. It says absolutely nothing of your hypothesis.
Quote:
I came up with a similar theory (that humans were really amnesiac, timetravelling future Xel'Naga) way back when to mock the Overmind retcon in WoL setting up a bad precedent for future lore.
Hey, why the hell not? Since any implicit cue is to be taken as fact now according to you, anything is possible! :P
Quote:
Ahh, but I would only do this if I adopted your position since I've established that what you deem as "implicit" regarding why the Zerg are attracted to psionics is incorrect.
I'm quoting explanations from the game. You're proposing a theory that creates a plothole in BW, and you expect us to give it precedence over the game because of an argument from ignorance. Why not just accept what the game says?
-
Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Yes, that's essentially what "zerg are attuned to the psionic emanations of ghosts" means. The zerg response to ghosts is inherent.
No, it does not "essentially" mean that. That quote is merely an observation, it does not imply anything about actual causation or the why of things. Being "attracted to something" just means being "attracted to something", not that the "attraction is inherent" or that the attraction is caused by the psionic emanations. You're demonstrating a post hoc fallacy ("a" occurred, then "b" occurred, thereforre "a" caused "b". Not always).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
SC1 explains how it works. Zerg are attuned to ghost signals. Psi emitters send that signal across worlds. BW doesn't change that.
BW changes the why of it (why they're attracted/attuned), much like WoL changes the why of the Overmind's motivation to attack the Protoss. WoL doesn't exactly change what actually happens in Sc1 either and yet you rail against that using the same position I'm presenting here to explain why there's contention regarding the Zerg attraction to psionics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Except none of those things actually say that. Just because you have a hypothesis doesn't make it right.
You've railed against this very same defence (what I've bolded) as being feeble and apologist in regards to the Overmind retcon in WoL and then go ahead and use it to defend your position here. Frankly, I'm somewhat in disbelief I have to point this out for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
It requires mental gymnastics to understand that they're opposite devices that can counteract each other?
They counteract each other in undefined/non-specific ways so yeah, it requires mental gymnastics to say why the emitter is countering the disruptor but not really working like it used to be because the disruptor is also countering its full potential.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
False analogy. SC1 explains how emitters work.
How is it a false analogy? Sc1 explains how the Overmind works as well. Regardless, the point of contention is not about how the emitter works but why it works. You're conflating the how and the why as the same thing. It is not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Why should I buy your "implicit cue" when the game gives its own explanation and your cue would end up creating a plothole in BW? Occam's razor. My theory makes the fewest assumptions, therefore your hypothesis loses out, not just because it makes absolutely no sense for zerg to still follow a defunct order from a dead character.
My position is not one I hold exclusively. There are those who firmly believe that the Zerg attraction to psionics was attributed to the Overmind (given that it is the Zerg) due to "implicit cues". It's not a position that comes "out of nowhere" since it's grounded in the lore of the presented Zerg history and so therefore, what BW shows us (that the Zerg still being attracted) can be construed as a plot-hole. BW presents a couple plot-devices/outs to band-aid (not totally fix mind you) over such a plot-hole. In the case above, the neo-Overmind does that because that's keeping in with came before. You're "fix", in saying that the Zerg were always just attracted to psionics for no particular reason at all can therefore be seen as confusing retroactive continuity because the implicit cue that the Overmind is the reason for why the Zerg are attracted in the first place is stronger (due to the wealth of material we have access to in Sc1 and its manual) than the implicit cue that there is no reason why the Zerg are attracted (where your evidence is one non-specific remark about being attuned without any exploration of the why).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Another false analogy. The manual gave us a clear history of the zerg and their coming to the k-sector. Actual dramatic irony. It says absolutely nothing of your hypothesis.
The analogy proves the point that Terrans are often wrong when it comes to what they think they know about the aliens. All they know is what they can observe and they make (often incorrect) conclusions from it. It's dramatic irony, too that the Terrans think they can direct/control the Zerg to their whims with psionic emanations when they're really making it easier for/just playing into the Overmind's agenda of capturing a psionic individual.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Hey, why the hell not? Since any implicit cue is to be taken as fact now according to you, anything is possible! :P
I never said that all arguments of ignorance are implicit cues. That Sc2 seeems to want to make us think they are now is the reason why I don't like talking about the prospect of Sc lore from Sc2 onwards because literally anything is possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
You're proposing a theory that creates a plothole in BW, and you expect us to give it precedence over the game because of an argument from ignorance. Why not just accept what the game says?
The difference is because you're refuting that a plot-hole ever existed by using a later entry to cement your argument (I have demonstrated above that the "Zerg being attuned to psionic emanations" statement in Sc1 alone is very weak evidence for your position) to whereas my position contends there was always a plot-hole using the first entry as the basis. You're asking of me to accept what the game says is not possible because you are asking me to be inconsistent with the logic that I've used. If I were to accept what the game says, I wouldn't be railing against the Overmind retcon in WoL. I'm consistent because the same logic I've applied here is the same in regards to my position on the Overmind retcon in WoL. Yours is not.
If "the Zerg are attracted to psionics because of the Overmind" is an "argument from ignorance", I would have to include "the Overmind is metaphysically free" as being one, too, if you want me to concede. That'd make more logical sense than me acquiescing to your internally inconsistent view of differentiating that "the Zerg are attracted to psionics because of the Overmind" is an argument of ignorance whereas "the Overmind is metaphysically free" is somehow not.
-
Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
Ok, I'm not getting these arguments from you guys.
From the original manual, we learn the zerg are naturally attuned to psychic signals before being incorporated into the Overmind. Also that zerg strive for evolutionary advancement. Ergo, even if we ignore the Overmind's directives, as well as its post-hoc motivations in StarCraft II, we can still conclude that curiosity in powerful psionic signals would be a natural zerg trait.
Now, if we assume the Overmind's intent were somehow preserved in the hivemind, then it would be natural for zerg to still be attracted to the potential of assimilating psionic potential.
Moreover, as no zerg other than Kerrigan ever manifested powerful psychic ability, it would be natural for Zagara or any other queen to desire psychic essence.
So, elaborate for me how this whole psi emitter thing is some kind of overly convoluted plot hole for you guys. Occam's razor. Just break it down.
-
Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Visions of Khas
From the original manual, we learn the zerg are naturally attuned to psychic signals before being incorporated into the Overmind.
Nope. I've re-read the manual on Zerg history and there's nothing that says or even remotely hints that the Zerg were naturally attuned to psychic signals before being incorporated into the Overmind (the segment titled The Birth of the Zerg). It does state, however, that their attraction to psionics stems from the Overmind's intent in trying to find it amongst the Terrans (The Determinant).
Besides, if the Zerg were so naturally sensitive in their detection and attraction to psionics, they would have found Aiur and the Protoss much, much earlier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Visions of Khas
Now, if we assume the Overmind's intent were somehow preserved in the hivemind, then it would be natural for zerg to still be attracted to the potential of assimilating psionic potential.
Yeah, but this assumption would be deemed "mental gymnastics" by Grad. However, this is the possible "out" for why there's still some attraction to psionics in BW (but not as powerful as before) since the Overmind still exists but is not as it was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Visions of Khas
Moreover, as no zerg other than Kerrigan ever manifested powerful psychic ability, it would be natural for Zagara or any other queen to desire psychic essence.
But aren't the new Queens and Broodmothers psychically improved over what came before because of Kerrigan's induction into the Swarm? Or are we supposed to take it she was not assimilated (as in her psionic potential was not integrated into the Swarm) by the Overmind, just merely infested?
-
Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
No, it does not "essentially" mean that. That quote is merely an observation, it does not imply anything about actual causation or the why of things. Being "attracted to something" just means being "attracted to something", not that the "attraction is inherent" or that the attraction is caused by the psionic emanations. You're demonstrating a post hoc fallacy ("a" occurred, then "b" occurred, thereforre "a" caused "b". Not always).
Read it again: "Those running the program found that the Zerg are attuned to the psychic emanations of Ghosts."
This is what the game gives us as the cause for the attraction. Expecting a video game to go into further details would result in meaningless technobabble.
Quote:
BW changes the why of it (why they're attracted/attuned), much like WoL changes the why of the Overmind's motivation to attack the Protoss.
Again, no it doesn't. In SC1 and Novert Ops the zerg respond to ghost signals, in BW they respond to Kerrigan's signals, who was actually a former ghost. This is the simplest explanation. Overlaying your Overmind theory on top of this would render the game nonsensical. The Overmind is dead and the new one isn't even conscious enough to give orders or have reason to keep looking for human psychics when it's in a civil war with a human psychic right now.
Quote:
WoL doesn't exactly change what actually happens in Sc1 either and yet you rail against that using the same position I'm presenting here to explain why there's contention regarding the Zerg attraction to psionics.
You've railed against this very same defence (what I've bolded) as being feeble and apologist in regards to the Overmind retcon in WoL and then go ahead and use it to defend your position here. Frankly, I'm somewhat in disbelief I have to point this out for you.
I'm absolutely baffled why you think this line of thought is getting you anywhere. You're essentially looking for an excuse to make it ok to appeal to ignorance to defend your argument. Once again:
Psi Emitters:
- mechanism of action clearly described in SC1
Overmind Retcon:
- nowhere is it explained/implied in SC1 that he lacks free will. In fact, this is probably the worst example to illustrate your point given that Zeratul outright invalidates Amon's existence & the Overmind's slavery when he touched minds with the Overmind and learned everything about him. It's a full-blown contradiction.
I mean, you'd be hard pressed to find a less relevant false analogy. The psi emitters work exactly the same throughout all the games: a psychic channels into them and the zerg respond. The Overmind retcon sends the character on a 180 degree heel-face turn that totally changes our interpretation of him. You seem to think I'm just dismissing your "implicit cue" for the mere fact that it's not outright stated anywhere, but I'm not. I'm dismissing it because it doesn't make any sense and my theory is more elegant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Visions of Khas
Ok, I'm not getting these arguments from you guys.
From the original manual, we learn the zerg are naturally attuned to psychic signals before being incorporated into the Overmind. Also that zerg strive for evolutionary advancement. Ergo, even if we ignore the Overmind's directives, as well as its post-hoc motivations in StarCraft II, we can still conclude that curiosity in powerful psionic signals would be a natural zerg trait.
Now, if we assume the Overmind's intent were somehow preserved in the hivemind, then it would be natural for zerg to still be attracted to the potential of assimilating psionic potential.
Moreover, as no zerg other than Kerrigan ever manifested powerful psychic ability, it would be natural for Zagara or any other queen to desire psychic essence.
So, elaborate for me how this whole psi emitter thing is some kind of overly convoluted plot hole for you guys. Occam's razor. Just break it down.
There's no plothole. The "plothole" is from Turalyon's idea that the zerg are only attracted to psi emitters because the Overmind said so, who is now dead and who actually stopped looking for psychic humans at the end of episode 2. It makes no sense that baby Overmind would still be sending out the "assimilate human psychics" order, or Zagara in Novert Ops considering she's supposed to be peaceful now and the Overminds are dead. Kerrigan ended human experimentation in HoTS (supposedly), so there's no reason the Overmind's intent would be preserved.
Quote:
Now, if we assume the Overmind's intent were somehow preserved in the hivemind, then it would be natural for zerg to still be attracted to the potential of assimilating psionic potential.
I disagree that Zerg are attracted just because the Overmind was looking for psychics. Even in SC: Uprising, 10 years before SC1, zerg respond to human telepaths before the swarm ever invaded. This was presumably the first time they had ever interacted.
All evidence points to the fact that the zergs' attraction to telepaths is just an innate thing. On the other hand I've found zero evidence of the "Overmind said so" hypotheses, which isn't even a working theory since it raises even more problems and questions that Turalyon seems keen on ignoring. Layering zerg leader motivations as an excuse for why psi emitters work only creates further problems. My explanation is the simplest and makes the fewest assumptions, given that I'm literally just quoting the game.
-
Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Nope. I've re-read the manual on Zerg history and there's nothing that says or even remotely hints that the Zerg were naturally attuned to psychic signals before being incorporated into the Overmind (the segment titled The Birth of the Zerg).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
Read it again: "Those running the program found that the Zerg are attuned to the psychic emanations of Ghosts."
This is what the game gives us as the cause for the attraction. Expecting a video game to go into further details would result in meaningless technobabble.
Mm, nope. Someone's losing their edge. ;)
Quote:
Zerg Units
Larva
Type: Hive Spawn
Core Genus: Original Zerg Strain
Primary Attack: None
The closest creatures to the original zerg insectoids
are the Zerg larvae. Although their size and toughness
were greatly boosted by the Xel'Naga during their
experiments, they still possess the two traits that originally
intrigued the ancient masters: genetic versatility and
psychic sensitivity.
Now, I have a .pdf of the manual on my computer; but has anyone else noticed that the Race Histories tab on the SCL Encyclopedia actually redirects to the planets list?
-
Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
I thought psi emitters were consistent in the first star craft.
For whatever reason, the individual Zerg minions were attracted to the psi emitters and would seek them out unless they were given other orders by their superiors
Early on, you had the Overmind and cerebrates noticing this pull on their minions so they decided to go in full force to investigate.
It's not very complicated
-
Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Read it again: "Those running the program found that the Zerg are attuned to the psychic emanations of Ghosts."
This is what the game gives us as the cause for the attraction.
"Attuned" is not even a synonym for "attracted", nor does it even suggest why it actually "attracts" (if at all) in the first place. For example, saying "I'm attuned to the noise of city life" does not mean I'm attracted to noisy city life nor imply that the noise is why I came to live in the city.
Even if the words were interchangeable, what you're suggesting is very much like this example: It's been observed that when (a) food is presented to you, it's followed by b) you eating it and then concluding that (a) caused (b) or that presenting food to you at any time will cause you to eat it under any and all circumstances. This is blatantly untrue because it disregards the most likely cause of you to eat, like feeling hungry.
Since this is your only "evidence", your premise is entirely flawed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
In SC1 and Novert Ops the zerg respond to ghost signals because of the Overmind, in BW they respond to Kerrigan's signals, who was actually a former ghost because of the baby Overmind.
Fixed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Overlaying your Overmind theory on top of this would render the game nonsensical.
I don't need to "overlay" anything nor is the theory ad hoc as you presume it to be. There is not enough evidence to suggest that psionic attraction is innate in the Zerg without the Overmind in Sc1 alone. To say so without reservation is an argument from ignorance. That's largely because the Zerg are never without the Overmind in Sc1 and because "attune" and "attraction" are not eveninterchangeable words. Much like the natural implication that the Overmind is metaphysically free-willed in the first instance, so is the Zerg being attracted to psionics because of the Overmind is inherent from the information contained in Sc1 and its manual. And, just like WoL says the Overmind was not metaphysically free-willed, Covert Ops suggests the Zerg are not attracted to psionics because of the Overmind.
With that basis, just saying, "well, the attraction was never due to the Overmind at all from Sc1 and has always been like that" or "it was never specifically stated that it was due to the Overmind so innate psionic attraction actually clears up any debate" is reminiscent of those defenses for the Overmind retcon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
nowhere is it explained/implied in SC1 that he lacks free will.
Some defenders would call this an argument from ignorance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
In fact, this is probably the worst example to illustrate your point given that Zeratul outright invalidates Amon's existence & the Overmind's slavery when he touched minds with the Overmind and learned everything about him. It's a full-blown contradiction.
*Winces at the weight of the Sc2 lore defence cap on my head* Not necessarily. This merely demonstrates absence of evidence not evidence of absence. Zeratul may well have known of the Overmind's slavery and Amon's existence through the contact but didn't mention it at the time because it was irrelevant/superfluous (although interesting to know to be sure) to addressing the important matter that the Overmind, free will or no, was still invading Aiur and wiping out their species at that very moment. I mean, even if he did blurt this out, it wouldn't have changed their subsequent actions against the Overmind anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
You seem to think I'm just dismissing your "implicit cue" for the mere fact that it's not outright stated anywhere, but I'm not. I'm dismissing it because it doesn't make any sense and my theory is more elegant.
Back at ya.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
It makes no sense that baby Overmind would still be sending out the "assimilate human psychics" order
It makes no sense that a resurrected/ baby Overmind should exist at all, yet there it is. If one can stretch how the Psi Disruptor (which makes no sense that it should exist as well) counters but not counter the Psi-emitter, it ain't much of a stretch to explain why a baby Overmind would still want to be looking for psionics (you know, psionics being its main objective for wanting to assimilate the Protoss and all).
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
I disagree that Zerg are attracted just because the Overmind was looking for psychics.
It's more satisfying than your reason of "for plot convenience". Having the Zerg do things "just because"/"for no reason"/meaninglessly (which is what your theory ultimately encourages) is a disservice to the established Zerg history and serves to make them, disappointingly enough as it is already, as nothing more than generic plot devices.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Even in SC: Uprising, 10 years before SC1, zerg respond to human telepaths before the swarm ever invaded. This was presumably the first time they had ever interacted.
Using information that came out only after the initial game and justifying it because the information was in the chronologic past of that universe. Hmm, I wonder what else that applies to...
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Originally Posted by
Visions of Khas
Mm, nope. Someone's losing their edge. ;)
Touché. Didn't think to look at the unit entries. Still, being sensitive/receptive/attuned to something does not mean they are also blindlessly attracted to that something.
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
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Originally Posted by
RODTHEGOD
I thought psi emitters were consistent in the first star craft.
For whatever reason, the individual Zerg minions were attracted to the psi emitters and would seek them out unless they were given other orders by their superiors
Early on, you had the Overmind and cerebrates noticing this pull on their minions so they decided to go in full force to investigate.
It's not very complicated
I thought it was more of a combination of the Overmind's actions and the Confederacy's emitters working way better than they thought, which lured the WHOLE of the swarm into the Koprulu sector
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
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Originally Posted by
RODTHEGOD
I thought psi emitters were consistent in the first star craft.
For whatever reason, the individual Zerg minions were attracted to the psi emitters and would seek them out unless they were given other orders by their superiors
Early on, you had the Overmind and cerebrates noticing this pull on their minions so they decided to go in full force to investigate.
It's not very complicated
That's pretty much what I think.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
"Attuned" is not even a synonym for "attracted", nor does it even suggest why it actually "attracts" (if at all) in the first place. For example, saying "I'm attuned to the noise of city life" does not mean I'm attracted to noisy city life nor imply that the noise is why I came to live in the city.
Even if the words were interchangeable, what you're suggesting is very much like this example: It's been observed that when (a) food is presented to you, it's followed by b) you eating it and then concluding that (a) caused (b) or that presenting food to you at any time will cause you to eat it under any and all circumstances. This is blatantly untrue because it disregards the most likely cause of you to eat, like feeling hungry.
Since this is your only "evidence", your premise is entirely flawed.
Zerg are attuned to Ghost signals:
"Those running the program found that the Zerg are attuned to the psychic emanations of Ghosts."
Zerg are attracted to Ghost signals:
"The Confederacy used these Psi Emitters to lure the Zerg into isolated containment areas."
Where's the confusion? I love how we've entered the nitpicking semantics phase of the debate where I provide all the evidence and you ignore it, and in the meantime I'm still waiting on a shred of evidence for the "Overmind said so" hypotheses that includes more than just rampant speculation.
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I don't need to "overlay" anything nor is the theory ad hoc as you presume it to be. There is not enough evidence to suggest that psionic attraction is innate in the Zerg without the Overmind in Sc1 alone.
I'm quoting facts from the game, your hypotheses isn't even a working theory since it essentially creates even more plotholes in Brood War.
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Some defenders would call this an argument from ignorance.
It's a direct contradiction.
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*Winces at the weight of the Sc2 lore defence cap on my head* Not necessarily. This merely demonstrates absence of evidence not evidence of absence. Zeratul may well have known of the Overmind's slavery and Amon's existence through the contact but didn't mention it at the time because it was irrelevant/superfluous (although interesting to know to be sure) to addressing the important matter that the Overmind, free will or no, was still invading Aiur and wiping out their species at that very moment. I mean, even if he did blurt this out, it wouldn't have changed their subsequent actions against the Overmind anyway.
Incorrect. The fact that the Overmind is a mental slave in his own body and has an even more powerful master would change the tone/dialog immensely. Then Zeratul wouldn't be surprised at Duran making a hybrid, or not have any clue who Amon was, or dozens of other inconsistencies. Dialog where the Overmind states he wants to assimilate the protoss to finish the grand experiment is contradicted/retconned. He does not want that, nor is he finishing the work of the Xel'Naga, nor did he "grow beyond their constraints". Blatant contradiction.
Did you really think I've been railing against the Overmind retcon all these years just because "it's my opinion"? :P
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It makes no sense that a resurrected/ baby Overmind should exist at all, yet there it is.
Yeah that's not how it works. You can't push whatever hypotheses you want because you don't like the mere existence of a plot device.
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If one can stretch how the Psi Disruptor (which makes no sense that it should exist as well) counters but not counter the Psi-emitter,
It really isn't difficult. I understood this concept when I was a 10 year old. The psi disruptor impeded Kerrigan's control of her broods yet she still managed to retain a limited degree of control (aka countered yet not countered according to you). That's literally mission 1. The psi disruptor doesn't fully counter everything, as that would be stupid, just like it's also unreasonable to expect some psi emitters to fully counter such a large device as the disruptor beyond perhaps a focal area (Kerrigan's base/scv).
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it ain't much of a stretch to explain why a baby Overmind would still want to be looking for psionics (you know, psionics being its main objective for wanting to assimilate the Protoss and all).
Sorry, it makes zero sense:
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The baby Overmind is sending out orders to hunt for terran psychics when it's not even grown and has much bigger problems like the disruptor, or the UED pacifying it with drugs? Wouldn't its mental bandwidth be better spent on uniting the swarms, retaking control of Kerrigan, or otherwise securing its position? If you're saying the orders to hunt for human psychics is a vestigial genetic memory from the old Overmind, wouldn't that be highly inefficient to have the swarm led by a character that's not even conscious? Isn't this contradicted by the fact that Daggoth is taking temporary control of the swarm in the baby Overmind's stead? Why would Daggoth care about finding more psychic humans? He has bigger problems and can't control the one psychic human that's already in the swarm.
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It's more satisfying than your reason of "for plot convenience". Having the Zerg do things "just because"/"for no reason"/meaninglessly (which is what your theory ultimately encourages) is a disservice to the established Zerg history and serves to make them, disappointingly enough as it is already, as nothing more than generic plot devices.
Given that there's no proof for your Overmind said so hypotheses to begin with, I don't see why you can't go on believing that the Overmind ordered the ghost signals investigated yet still recognize the fact from the game that zerg are just naturally attracted to psi emitters.
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Using information that came out only after the initial game and justifying it because it's still in the original game.
Fixed.
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Where's the confusion?
I think you're the one who's confused. I'm not even refuting that Zerg are attracted to Psi-emitters, I'm refuting that the Psi-emitters are the cause of the attraction.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
I love how we've entered the nitpicking semantics phase of the debate where I provide all the evidence and you ignore it, and in the meantime I'm still waiting on a shred of evidence for the "Overmind said so" hypotheses that includes more than just rampant speculation.
I love how you keep insisting that what you call "evidence" is sufficient for a conclusion that is not even supported nor even remotely implied. I love how you can dismiss the systematic breakdown of your fallacious position as "nitpicking semantics" because you can't actually defend it with any similar sense of rigor.
As to evidence about the Overmind being the cause of Zerg attraction, I have all I need in the Zerg history of the manual (the section The Determinant in particular). Cutting it short: The Overmind and the Zerg are one, though the Overmind has supreme authority over the Zerg. The Overmind wants to a psionic individual and goes about seeking those with psionic capability. The Overmind is attracted to psionics. Because they are one, we can conclude that the Zerg are attracted to psionics and that any attraction at the Zerg level can be attributed to the Overmind.
One can also conclude that the Zerg alone/innately/without the Overmind are attracted to psionics but there is no basis or circumstantial evidence for this in Sc1 because the Zerg are never without the Overmind. Moreover, to insist that this is more correct over the Overmind as the cause of this attraction with what information we have in Sc1 is an argument from ignorance.
Your evidence relies on so-called implied cues (which I have proven to be incorrect implied cues) that are actually weaker than the heavily implied cues (some would call this direct evidence, but I won't because then you'd probably get mad at me) in The Determinant section of the Zerg history in manual suggesting the Overmind is the direct reason for any Zerg attraction to psionics.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
I'm quoting facts from the game, your hypotheses isn't even a working theory since it essentially creates even more plotholes in Brood War.
The question of the origin of Zerg attraction to psionics is not even an overt and damaging plothole in BW, because there is an Overmind present there. It is a plot hole in Covert Ops however (unless it's revealed that the Overmind has comeback again :rolleyes:).
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Did you really think I've been railing against the Overmind retcon all these years just because "it's my opinion"? :P
Although I could probably give a reasonable defence to those points you raised, if I put my mind to it, I have no inclination to do so since it's not worth it and I'd start hating myself :p. The retcon is more distasteful to me not because of any contradictions it may raise and how it neuters my beloved Zerg, but how it overtly it telegraphs itself as nothing more than a poorly conceived and presented plot device that sets an unhealthy precedent that absolutely anything can happen, at any time or any place, with no rhyme or reason.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
You can't push whatever hypotheses you want because you don't like the mere existence of a plot device.
Huh. So somehow you can use the Psi-Disruptor (a plot device) to "push whatever hypothesis you want" but I can't do the same with the Overmind's continued existence in BW (a plot device). How quaint.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
The psi disruptor doesn't fully counter everything, as that would be stupid, just like it's also unreasonable to expect some psi emitters to fully counter such a large device as the disruptor beyond perhaps a focal area (Kerrigan's base/scv).
It's unclear why a psi-emitter would even counter the disruptor since all it does it spit out an amplified Ghosts psionic imprint. I could use mental gymnastics but I hear that's a big no-no for you. :p
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I think you're the one who's confused. I'm not even refuting that Zerg are attracted to Psi-emitters, I'm refuting that the Psi-emitters are the cause of the attraction.
I love how you keep insisting that what you call "evidence" is sufficient for a conclusion that is not even supported nor even remotely implied. I love how you can dismiss the systematic breakdown of your fallacious position as "nitpicking semantics" because you can't actually defend it with any similar sense of rigor.
Sorry but ignoring quotes from the game that clearly give the ghost as the cause of the attraction does not constitute a "systematic breakdown" of anything. The game gives no other explanation and it's an explanation that makes the most sense, therefore it's the one being used.
I mean sure, it could be that the source behind the attraction was actually Santa Claus pulling the strings all along but that's an argument from ignorance and has as much evidence as your "Overmind said so" hypothesis. Too bad you can't apply the same "systematic breakdown" to your position. Give me a break. :P
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
As to evidence about the Overmind being the cause of Zerg attraction, I have all I need in the Zerg history of the manual (the section The Determinant in particular). Cutting it short: The Overmind and the Zerg are one, though the Overmind has supreme authority over the Zerg. The Overmind wants to a psionic individual and goes about seeking those with psionic capability. The Overmind is attracted to psionics. Because they are one, we can conclude that the Zerg are attracted to psionics and that any attraction at the Zerg level can be attributed to the Overmind.
One can also conclude that the Zerg alone/innately/without the Overmind are attracted to psionics but there is no basis or circumstantial evidence for this in Sc1 because the Zerg are never without the Overmind. Moreover, to insist that this is more correct over the Overmind as the cause of this attraction with what information we have in Sc1 is an argument from ignorance.
So you go on a giant lecture about the post hoc fallacy and how my conclusion isn't ever "remotely implied" even though I'm quoting the game, and in the meantime this is the best "evidence" you can come up with?
1) I'm not contesting the fact that the Overmind leads the swarm, I'm contesting the fact that theyre only attracted because the Overmind said so. Find something relevant.
2) The Overmind also delegates orders to inferiors. Overlords are responsible for actually issuing orders to individual units. The attraction to psi emitters could be innate at any level. So your Overmind said so hypotheses isn't the only possible reason for attraction to psi emitters, aka post hoc fallacy. Sound familiar?
3) Again maybe the Overmind is both looking for psychics and Zerg can both be attracted to psi emitters. They're not mutually exclusive. You're the one making the claim that they're only attracted because of the Overmind and that this is therefore a problem in future installments, even though NONE of the games actually say that. Therefore the burden of proof is on you. That's just how debates work. :rolleyes:
4) Feel free to at any point actually address all the plot holes your hypothesis creates in BW. Until then your hypothesis can be dismissed as mere speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
It's unclear why a psi-emitter would even counter the disruptor since all it does it spit out an amplified Ghosts psionic imprint. I could use mental gymnastics but I hear that's a big no-no for you. :p
A psi emitter emits a psi signal and the disruptor disrupts it. Let me know if you have any other questions. :P
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
Psi disruptors do not directly interfere with psionic waveforms. Rather, they emit Sigma radiation which disrupts psi-receptive cellular tissue in zerg. Go back over Stettman's notes in WoL.
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
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Originally Posted by
Visions of Khas
Psi disruptors do not directly interfere with psionic waveforms. Rather, they emit Sigma radiation which disrupts psi-receptive cellular tissue in zerg. Go back over Stettman's notes in WoL.
So? It still does not preclude psi emitters from counteracting the effect. Kerrigan could counteract the psi disrupter's effect to a degree just by concentrating more.
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Sorry but ignoring quotes from the game that clearly give the ghost as the cause of the attraction does not constitute a "systematic breakdown" of anything.
How have I ignored the quotes you gave when I went on to break them down and reveal how they don't even support your fallacious conclusion?
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
I mean sure, it could be that the source behind the attraction was actually Santa Claus pulling the strings all along but that's an argument from ignorance and has as much evidence as your "Overmind said so" hypothesis.
Please enlighten me as to how Santa Claus is just as plausible as the Overmind as being the reason behind the Zerg attraction to psionics using the Sc1 manual as a source. Way to clutch the strawman!
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
So you go on a giant lecture about the post hoc fallacy and how my conclusion isn't ever "remotely implied" even though I'm quoting the game, and in the meantime this is the best "evidence" you can come up with?
So now you want to compare evidence? Well, given that I've proven that the quotes you've provided are not even adequate to support your claims, you don't even technically have any evidence. You can't even offer a reasoned rebuttal to my argument beyond insisting still on the quotes having some magical quality that supports your fallacious conclusion. What little evidence I do have trumps your "evidence" already by default.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
I'm contesting the fact that theyre only attracted because the Overmind said so.
You have failed to do so convincingly. There is no way you can conclude from Sc1 alone that Zerg without an Overmind are inherently attracted to psionics because the Zerg are never without the Overmind when being attracted psionics in Sc1. To do so is an argument from ignorance.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
The Overmind also delegates orders to inferiors. Overlords are responsible for actually issuing orders to individual units. The attraction to psi emitters could be innate at any level.
How does being issued orders from Overlords have anything to do with the idea of Zerg without Overmind direction being innately attracted to psionics? For these two mutually exclusive observations to even inform one another would require "mental gymnastics" from the layman.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Again maybe the Overmind is both looking for psychics and Zerg can both be attracted to psi emitters. They're not mutually exclusive.
What gives you reason to say that they're not mutually exclusive beyond making an appeal to ignorance?
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
You're the one making the claim that they're only attracted because of the Overmind and that this is therefore a problem in future installments, even though NONE of the games actually say that.
I'm seeing how easily this line of reasoning can also be applied to justify the Overmind free-will retcon: "I'm the one making the claim that the Overmind always had freewill and that this is therefore a problem in future installments (because of WoL introducing this retcon and creating a problem), even though NONE of the games actually say that (that the Overmind always had free-will)" and how unreasonable it is, yet this line of argument is somehow appropriate now. :confused:
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Feel free to at any point actually address all the plot holes your hypothesis creates in BW.
None.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
A psi emitter emits a psi signal and the disruptor disrupts it. Let me know if you have any other questions. :P
You forgot the bit about when the disruptor doesn't always disrupt or incompletely disrupts the psi signal from the psi emitter because the psi emitter still works even though the disruptor disrupts it.... so yeah, it's very clear... like mud. :p
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
How have I ignored the quotes you gave when I went on to break them down and reveal how they don't even support your fallacious conclusion?
"The emitters broadcast the neural imprint of a Ghost, but at a much greater magnitude. These things reach across worlds."
"the Psi Emitters reached out to the far corners of the Terran Sector, luring billions of Zerg to the capitol world of Tarsonis."
That's all the game says on the topic of psi emitters. A terran psychic channeling into them lures zerg to them. That's it. How are quotes from the game a "fallacious conclusion"? -_-
Stop ignoring evidence.
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Please enlighten me as to how Santa Claus is just as plausible as the Overmind as being the reason behind the Zerg attraction to psionics using the Sc1 manual as a source. Way to clutch the strawman!
Uhm, neither of those things are in the manual. That's my point.
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So now you want to compare evidence? Well, given that I've proven that the quotes you've provided are not even adequate to support your claims, you don't even technically have any evidence. You can't even offer a reasoned rebuttal to my argument beyond insisting still on the quotes having some magical quality that supports your fallacious conclusion. What little evidence I do have trumps your "evidence" already by default.
Sorry, but banging your head against the wall and pretending the quotes say something else isn't a valid debate tactic.
Your "systematic breakdown" basically consists of badgering me about why the cause of attraction to psi emitters couldn't be caused by something besides what it says in the game. You're saying "It's from a limited perspective - the Terran perspective." But guess what? The "terran perspective" is also the audience perspective unless otherwise stated somewhere, and it's not my obligation to prove that the attraction isn't due to santa claus or literally anything else that's not what the audience is given at face value. Essentially, your position is the epitome of argument from ignorance, like an example that you'd expect to find in wikipedia if you ever looked the term up.
You're making the extraordinary claim, so the burden of proof is on you. Unfortunately, your hypothesis is stated nowhere, so...that sucks!
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You have failed to do so convincingly. There is no way you can conclude from Sc1 alone that Zerg without an Overmind are inherently attracted to psionics because the Zerg are never without the Overmind when being attracted psionics in Sc1. To do so is an argument from ignorance.
Zerg without an Overmind? Pretty irrelevant to the topic at hand. I'm literally quoting the game, that the zerg are attracted to psionics. Nice try switching goalposts though. <_<
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How does being issued orders from Overlords have anything to do with the idea of Zerg without Overmind direction being innately attracted to psionics? For these two mutually exclusive observations to even inform one another would require "mental gymnastics" from the layman.
I'm sorry that common sense is now mental gymnastics. Not all underlings are going to have the same desires/drives as their superiors, and the Overmind can override any other action of a subordinate if he so chooses. I thought that was obvious, and it's your job to prove it wrong.
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What gives you reason to say that they're not mutually exclusive beyond making an appeal to ignorance?
So when you "systematically disassemble" my position by going on a giant rant on the post-hoc fallacy, that just because x follows y, doesn't mean x caused y, it's awesome and you're a genius. But when I do literally the same exact thing to you by pointing out that what you think is happening could actually be caused by something else, it's an argument from ignorance. Cool double standards bro.
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I'm seeing how easily this line of reasoning can also be applied to justify the Overmind free-will retcon: "I'm the one making the claim that the Overmind always had freewill
It's not just me making the claim that the Overmind wasn't enslaved by Amon, it's a concept that's fully invalidated by the original game. Again, I didn't base my position on pure opinion like you admit you did. Find a different strawman to attack. We literally just talked about this.
Start working on this quote then:
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The baby Overmind is sending out orders to hunt for terran psychics when it's not even grown and has much bigger problems like the disruptor, or the UED pacifying it with drugs? Wouldn't its mental bandwidth be better spent on uniting the swarms, retaking control of Kerrigan, or otherwise securing its position? If you're saying the orders to hunt for human psychics is a vestigial genetic memory from the old Overmind, wouldn't that be highly inefficient to have the swarm led by a character that's not even conscious? Isn't this contradicted by the fact that Daggoth is taking temporary control of the swarm in the baby Overmind's stead? Why would Daggoth care about finding more psychic humans? He has bigger problems and can't control the one psychic human that's already in the swarm.
Because as of now your hypotheses makes zero freaking sense and it's laughable that you think it should take precedence over actual quotes from the game that don't create plotholes.
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You forgot the bit about when the disruptor doesn't always disrupt or incompletely disrupts Kerrigan's orders because Kerrigan's orders still work even though the disruptor disrupts them.... so yeah, it's very clear... like mud.
Fixed.
Again, when you finally figure out how Kerrigan can still control zerg even though the disruptor is active, you'll figure out the psi emitter too. :rolleyes:
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Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
How are quotes from the game a "fallacious conclusion"? -_-
Your conflating these quotes as being evidence for your fallacious conclusion that the cause of the Zerg attraction is "just because" when they are clearly not.
Those quotes do not even imply why they are being lured (which is what we're trying to determine).
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
"The emitters broadcast the neural imprint of a Ghost, but at a much greater magnitude. These things reach across worlds."
There is nothing in that quote that supports the notion that Zerg without an Overmind would be innately attracted to psionics.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
"the Psi Emitters reached out to the far corners of the Terran Sector, luring billions of Zerg to the capitol world of Tarsonis."
How does this support the notion that feral Zerg are innately attracted to psionics to the exclusion and priority over the presence of the Overmind? The Overmind is still the will of the Zerg at this point.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Uhm, neither of those things are in the manual. That's my point.
Excerpt from The Determinant in the Zerg history of the manual. "Despite innumberable victories, the Overmind was greatly disturbed. The Overmind was aware that the Protoss had become a highly psionic race, able to bend and warp the very fabric of reality to their whims. It sought a way to counter the awesome might of the Protoss, but found no answers among the genetic strains it devoured.
On the verge of despair, the Overmind made an amazing discovery. One of its deep-space probes had relayed the location and vital statistics of a race that occupied a series of nondescript worlds, right under the shadow of the Protoss.
The new race, called Humanity, was mere generations away from developing into a formidable psionic power. But the Overmind also knew that Humanity was still in its infant stages, hardly capable of defending itself against the ravenous Zerg. Although a short-lived and seemingly frail species, the Overmind knew that Humanity would be the final determinant in its victory over the Protoss. If it could assimilate the psionic potential of Humanity, the Overmind would have the ability to combat the Protoss on its own terms."
Your turn to find the reference that Santa Claus is the more reasonable explanation behind the Zerg attraction to psionics than the Overmind.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Sorry, but banging your head against the wall and pretending the quotes say something else isn't a valid debate tactic.
Neither is putting fingers in your ears and going "lalalalalala". :p;)
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Your "systematic breakdown" basically consists of badgering me about why the cause of attraction to psi emitters couldn't be caused by something besides what it says in the game.
Huh, isn't this the whole point of this discussion, to nut out the cause of Zerg attraction to psionics? I've demonstrated that your quotes don't even imply even a specific cause and that your subsequent conclusion for the cause of Zerg attraction to psionics amounts to a giant shrug of "well, stuff happens". Worse, your conclusion has the unfortunate implication of minimising/denying the Zerg their motivations and their identity as nothing more than covenient plotting in the story of Sc1, which is bad enough considering in BW, the Zerg are indeed nothing more than plot device/artifice. Ain't no way I'm gonna drink that Kool-aid without pitching a hissy fit. :p
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
You're saying "It's from a limited perspective - the Terran perspective." But guess what? The "terran perspective" is also the audience perspective unless otherwise stated somewhere
By that same accord, are we then to trust what Mengsk says in that "the Zerg are a secret weapon developed by the Confederacy"? He believes "the aliens were their creation", so we should, too, right?
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
You're making the extraordinary claim, so the burden of proof is on you. Unfortunately, your hypothesis is stated nowhere, so...that sucks!
What makes my claim so extraordinary? The conceit of the story behind the Zerg has the Overmind deciding to attacking the Terrans only because of their psionic potential and yet, on your own whim, that's disregarded as proof as to why the Zerg are attracted to psionics. :confused:
Not only do you deny that, but you then claim that Zerg, feral or no, are innately attracted to psionics when there is no proof in Sc1 that feral Zerg are attracted to psionics. You then use quotes that do not even imply such a thing (by claiming "attunement" is defined as attraction/the reason for the attraction when any dictionary will prove you wrong). The weight of your evidence has been dismantled at every level and you've yet to counter my evidence beyond "I don't like it because it creates imaginary plotholes". So, who is really making the extraordinary claim of the two, here?
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
I'm literally quoting the game, that the zerg are attracted to psionics.
When did I ever dispute this? I thought that the point of all this was that we were trying to get at the reason as to why they are attracted to psionics.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
I'm sorry that common sense is now mental gymnastics. Not all underlings are going to have the same desires/drives as their superiors, and the Overmind can override any other action of a subordinate if he so chooses. I thought that was obvious, and it's your job to prove it wrong.
Let me rephrase, how does being controlled through psionics of one type in any way correspond or inform you that that very thing be controlled is also innately attracted to psionics of another type? The explanation you gave would not be readily apparent to the lay person. Besides, I think of the Overmind and all the Zerg as one organism, unified in purpose and thought.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
So when you "systematically disassemble" my position by going on a giant rant on the post-hoc fallacy, that just because x follows y, doesn't mean x caused y, it's awesome and you're a genius. But when I do literally the same exact thing to you by pointing out that what you think is happening could actually be caused by something else, it's an argument from ignorance. Cool double standards bro.
Didn't mean to sound "all superior", it was a genuine question. You started off the statement with a supposition ("Again maybe the Overmind....") and then ended it with a definitive declaration and it confused me.
Also, I don't see where you've pointed out a post-hoc fallacy. The manual establishes that the Overmind and the Zerg in general are one, that the will of the Zerg is the Overmind and that the attraction to psionics came from the Overmind specifically (it wanted a psionic). That's plenty to establish "x caused y". Whilst the possibility exists that feral Zerg (those without the Overmind) can still be attracted to psionics on their lonesome, it remains as an argument from ignorance since there's actually no evidence, circumstantial (your quotes purport to be this but are proven to be just hearsay) or otherwise to support the notion at that point in time.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
It's not just me making the claim that the Overmind wasn't enslaved by Amon, it's a concept that's fully invalidated by the original game.....We literally just talked about this.
Yeah, I know. I was just stating that largely because if I did adopt the reasoning you just gave, I would be accused rightly of being inconsistent, cherry-picking and hypocritical in my thinking. Your demand that I give you evidence that directly says "the Overmind is the specific cause of the observed Zerg attraction to psionics" is as unreasonable as those who ask for evidence that directly says "the Overmind was always metaphysically free from the start".
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
The baby Overmind is sending out orders to hunt for terran psychics when it's not even grown and has much bigger problems like the disruptor, or the UED pacifying it with drugs?
Why not? Acquiring psionics is the key to it's ultimate victory is it not? Besides, we are talking about the presence/existence of mere attraction to psionics (the presence of the Overmind is enough to ensure at least that), not a specific act of attraction in "actively sending out orders to hunt for Terran psyhics".
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Wouldn't its mental bandwidth be better spent on uniting the swarms, retaking control of Kerrigan, or otherwise securing its position?
Who says it wasn't trying to do all this? We don't know since the neo-Overmind is a plot-device with no precedent nor is it given any point of view. All we know is that it doesn't have enough strength in that moment to do anything of those overtly large tasks but that it eventually could given enough time. In the meantime, why not continue passively looking for a secret weapon and jumping at a possible opportunity whenever it presents itself?
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
If you're saying the orders to hunt for human psychics is a vestigial genetic memory from the old Overmind, wouldn't that be highly inefficient to have the swarm led by a character that's not even conscious? Isn't this contradicted by the fact that Daggoth is taking temporary control of the swarm in the baby Overmind's stead? Why would Daggoth care about finding more psychic humans? He has bigger problems and can't control the one psychic human that's already in the swarm.
There is no Daggoth (as a single entity) in BW, since it had already merged with other cerebrates in order to create this neo-Overmind (Kerrigan says so in The Quest of the Uraj... unless she's lying :p), so I guess you can blame Daggoth for making the Swarm supposedly "highly inefficient" and "led by a character that's not even conscious".
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Fixed.
What did you fix? It still says "so yeah, it's very clear... like mud" at the end. :D
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Again, when you finally figure out how Kerrigan can still control zerg even though the disruptor is active, you'll figure out the psi emitter too. :rolleyes:
Well, you did say "A psi emitter emits a psi signal and the disruptor disrupts it" first and then changed your mind by correcting my addition to your quote by saying the psi disruptor only disrupts Kerrigan's orders. So which is it? Also, Mengsk's speech in Reign of Fire implies that the psi emitter is not the thing that even directly enables Kerrigan to control the Zerg since "the Emitter should be able to get the attention of any renegade Zerg near it. The SCV will then be able to lure the Zerg back to your base. Once the Zerg arrive there, you'll be able to assert direct control over them", only for the gameplay to then demonstrate that the emitter-holding-SCV actually is able to allow direct player control over neutral Zerg by going near them. What's weirder still is that they even need the Psi-emitter at all since they start the mission by disabling the Psi-Disruptor's primary generator so it shouldn't be working anyway/Kerrigan should've been able to control the Zerg without a Psi-emitter (which doesn't allow direct control of Zerg anyway according to Mengsk)! Do I start with the mental gymnastics now? :D
