Should depot submerge be a research?

First of all I think it's really clever how they allow for submersion of supply depots so you can use them as walls without any repercussions. However, the latest battle report demonstrates a scenario which is likely to be used in every single game while playing against Terran players. Given one choke into a base, you can always expect Terran's to wall it off with depots essentially cutting short any early-game harassment or reconnaissance.

Terran's would be foolish not to do so, because they have nothing to lose from this strategy. But for those playing against Terran's I feel as if this would get irritating after repeat play. Not being able to commit early harassment or observe what tech their researching until mid game seems like it'll take much of the fun out of the game.

The solution? Make depot submersion a research available at the engineering bay. This way there's a bit of a delay before Terran's can enable this, and if they choose to block their ramp completely they do so at the loss of mobility at least until the meta game develops.

What are people's opinions of this? Are you accepting of the fact that against Terrans on one choke, you will almost always be confronted with depot blockades?

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Originally Posted by Blazur

Are you accepting of the fact that against Terrans on one choke, you will almost always be confronted with depot blockades?

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No, I'm not. As it currently stands I support the idea of it being research. Terrans already have an advantage against early harassment in the fact that they have the toughest workers in the game. Giving them free walls with no repercussions is currently imbalanced.

Any other ideas besides making it researchable?

Even if submerge was a research terran would still wall in with depots.

That is correct. However, the current walling in with depots prevents early game recon of a terran base. Even if the terrans still wall in, without submerging their depots, it will be more balanced because they will lose mobility. It's called a trade-off.

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Originally Posted by Xyvik

It's called a trade-off.

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Its called a trade-off that is very difficult for new players to grasp. Right now submerging depots does a great job of teaching new players how to wall-in. This was a part of the learning curve that SC1 really struggled with and submerging depots make wall-in a fun dynamic experience.

I think it would be a very bad move to push it up the tech tree. Besides after cliff-walkers and transports come out the submerging depots have much less of an impact on play.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Even if submerge was a research terran would still wall in with depots.

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It's certainly possible, but there's consequences in doing so. The main drawback is that it prevents them from venturing out of the base early on and possibly giving players the freedom to expand early or establish a perimeter around the base. Plus in order to free themselves from their base using ground troops they'd have to invest the money to research the upgrade, cutting into their army budget.

Players can still opt for a wall using a mixture of depots and barracks, but that could still slow things down for the Terran player as units pop out on either side or they need to constantly lift it off.

Remember, visibility is limited by cliffs. So when a choke is placed at the top of a ramp you'll only be able to fit a few units on there before you reach that barricade. Just a few marines behind that wall is enough to stop most threats for a good 5-10 minutes of the game, making the beginning suddenly boring.

I don´t think it´s a good idea. The described scenario i think is entirely intentional. Scouting is a very very fine line - if it´s to easy the game is just "build the counter", if it´s too much it´s guessing/cookie cutter. Zerg kinda have the same advantage, no initial scout can outrun creepboosted zerglings and Queen.
Research would doom it to the same fate as Burrow - criminal underutilisation.

Well, you can do it in SC too... and lifting off the baracks isn't that much more complicated than submerging depots.

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Originally Posted by FoxSpirit

Well, you can do it in SC too... and lifting off the baracks isn't that much more complicated than submerging depots.

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but when the barracks is lifted it cannot be producing units, which is part of the trade-off.

Archer, the Terrans are powerful enough and newb friendly enough as it is. A little extra thinking for newbs wouldn't be a bad thing. If proper tutorials were included it could teach newcomers the importance of walling in and why you might not want to.

As it stands, Terran has a marked advantage in early game scouting. They can easily prevent anybody from seeing what they are teching for, leaving opponents guessing completely, while the Terrans can scout people at will.

It may seem like a small advantage, but only time and testing will see if it ends up being an imbalanced one. The theoretical number crunching balance machine says it's imbalanced, and while that TNCB is usually right it takes actual testing to see how the imbalance can be rectified.

Guess I'm not seeing the issue; even with a 'submerge' upgrade, Terran would just continue to use the Barracks as a gate until the upgrade was complete. (?) (Which David Kim did anyway.)

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Originally Posted by Xyvik

The theoretical number crunching balance machine says it's imbalanced, and while that TNCB is usually right

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lol what?


Im not going to be convinced till I see a bunch of scientific looking equations and a pretty graph with one line rocketing off the chart :p

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

lol what?


Im not going to be convinced till I see a bunch of scientific looking equations and a pretty graph with one line rocketing off the chart :p

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If memory serves, not even that seems to convince you of imbalance.

Ok ive crunched the numbers using the TNCB and plotted how hard it is for each of the races to scout at time X.

http://helenkosings.files.wordpress....ng?w=444&h=400

We can clearly see that Terran is, in fact, imbalanced. And if anyone is wondering the loop at time point "RR" is when Terrans reapers are running circles around your probes.

I'm against this. There is no reason to not wall, ever. whether submerge is researched or not. There is no mobility to lose with new pathing AND the fact that only until you hit tank tech will mobility out your choke be an issue. What, so then are people who support making it researchable going to support having it researched after tank tech to balance out the "mobility" trade off?

Making it researchable solves no problems IMO. Lifting one barracks will cause you to lose production yes, but that's only 1 marine you're losing production for, because once you move out you land and continue to produce. Actually in fact, most people after gaining their initial forces just move their rax out of the way for the rest of the game.

I think the solution here lies not with fixing the depots, but tweaking the workers. Workers should be able to pass between buildings effortlessly, and be the only units who can do so. The only foreseeable issue with this is worker rushes, but they usually happen before any buildings are even made.

There is no reason this should be researched. Considering the UI improvements, a player will simply move one scv out and wall in anyway. Reapers will allow him to get into the opponents base anyway, so that doesnt hurt his harassment, and you simply build CC's lift off and move to a new base, while preparing to use mules as soon as they get there to get harvesting moving right away at that base.

I really dont see how making this require research will stop wall-ins. It really is the only way to protect yourself against scouting/early rushes as a terran player.

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Originally Posted by Santrega

It really is the only way to protect yourself against scouting/early rushes as a terran player.

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Naturally. But just try and think about it conceptually from the perspective of players facing off against Terrans. Does it sound fun repeatedly running up against a blockade at the top of a choke? Both Protoss and Zerg tier 1 infantry are melee, meaning any blockades using them can be bested with range or by slowly dwindling away at the army. Terrans on the other have range with nearly all their initial units (excluding the hellion), meaning they can easily hide behind the wall and even repair it if it's in trouble...making it incredibly difficult to blast through early on.

This doesn't sound annoying to anybody else? Imagine having 10 games in a row start off in this same fashion.

Welcome to how I feel about the macro mechanics, Blazur.

Also, read my last post again and comment on it :p

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Welcome to how I feel about the macro mechanics, Blazur.

Also, read my last post again and comment on it :p

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I hear ya. As for your suggestion, I believe there's more to it than simply blocking passage of workers. It's simply too easy for Terran players to remain completely near harmless from any ground troops early on in the game, and this supply depot wall tactic is a borderline cheese strategy that's too easy and a no-brainer. I wish there was some cost or delay involved with getting this type of setup, because I'm not fond of the idea of having to constantly face off against it.

Zerg at least have the option to punch through it using banelings. Protoss might be able to push their way through using brute force with zealots. So while there are some solutions, it's the notion that we'll always have to deal with this blockage on select maps that I'm generally unhappy with. Because you know damn well every single Terran player will open up with this tactic.

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Originally Posted by Blazur

Naturally. But just try and think about it conceptually from the perspective of players facing off against Terrans. Does it sound fun repeatedly running up against a blockade at the top of a choke?

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That was how it was in Starcraft 1. And it is fun. Why not get mad at bases having chokes, harrasment cliffs or natural expansions?

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The solution? Make depot submersion a research available at the engineering bay.

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How is this a solution? Terrans have been walling themselves off for near on a decade now. They'll just use a Barracks/Factory like they do in SC1.

The only way to make walling in impossible for the Terrans is to take away building mobility in the early game. It would become a later game research.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

How is this a solution? Terrans have been walling themselves off for near on a decade now. They'll just use a Barracks/Factory like they do in SC1.

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If they want to use a Rax/Factory then let them. Later on they can fly it away, cutting into production time, or move it permanently and open up a hole. If players choose to make a choke using only depots they'll need to invest resources and remember to activate the ability once they've advanced in tech. It introduces choice to Terran players. Failure to make this investment leads to an impassable choke from both sides.

Alternatives are to move the research to the Armory making it come later on in the game, or individually upgrade each depot to allow for this technology at a cost.

Terrans already master turtling with a surplus of ranged units and tanks, why make it that much easier with innate sunken depots?

Or we can keep it as it is and expect to encounter a depot wall every time we play against Terrans on Lost Temple and potentially many other maps.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

The only way to make walling in impossible for the Terrans is to take away building mobility in the early game. It would become a later game research.

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That's another suggestion I've made on numerous occasions. It would prevent Terrans from floating early CC's to islands for an easy capital gain. Couple that with depot choke blocking and you have an even greater chance to be cheesed early on against a Terran player.

Honestly I've always been more afraid of spider mines during early harassment than anything else. I'll gladly take submersible depots :P

Also blink and cliffwalk :)

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Originally Posted by Blazur

It would prevent Terrans from floating early CC's to islands for an easy capital gain.

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But thats a good thing! Where did you guys pick up this mentality that if a race can do something the others cant then its bad?

You know, killing a 350 depot is easier then killing a 1k hp barracks.

Yeah, couldn't they just build a barracks and use it as a door? In fact, I would add a reactor onto that barracks, that way when it is down I can pour marines out of it like crazy. Anyway, this is one of those fishy edges of balance that I'm not so sure on. It seems just fine as is, but I can see how a fix might be needed.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

lol what?

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It's a proprietary set of checks & balances, algorithms, and scenarios I use to test to make sure my own games/mods are balanced. In 7 years of mod making and 4 years of game making it has proven to be roughly 90% accurate.

I re-iterate my early statement and concur with n00bs: it's not a huge problem, but there could possibly be a fix. Walling off Terrans is indeed something of a cheese strategy. I myself have always been a fan of putting building mobility as a research article.

The moment they do that, however, billions of angry Terran fanbois will descend on them and torch them to pieces. Blizzard themselves have also shown they favor Terrans slightly anyway, so it's unlikely we'll see this change any time soon.

And at what point in the tech tree do you want to move the ability to bury the Depots? Terrans could just wait for the upgrade, if fast enough, or just use another building, or close with a Bunker, and Salvage it to go out.

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Originally Posted by Xyvik

I myself have always been a fan of putting building mobility as a research article.

The moment they do that, however, billions of angry Terran fanbois will descend on them and torch them to pieces. Blizzard themselves have also shown they favor Terrans slightly anyway, so it's unlikely we'll see this change any time soon.

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I don't agree with this at all. Building mobility is an innate Terran attribute - you may as well force Protoss to research their ability to warp in buildings without losing workers/worker time, or Zerg's 3 larva at one hatch.

And though I've always thought that Terran is the best looking race in SC2, I chalk that up to this being the Terran expansion, and that they've always been my favored race.

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Originally Posted by trace wm

I don't agree with this at all. Building mobility is an innate Terran attribute - you may as well force Protoss to research their ability to warp in buildings without losing workers/worker time, or Zerg's 3 larva at one hatch.

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But not all buildings are mobile, otherwise the academy in SC would have had the option to lift-off. Selective mobility is part of the mobility of Terrans. If Barracks have selective mobility, it's still an innate terran ability.

I honestly don't know how this particular situation would be resolved since I haven't spent enough time and energy thinking about it and balancing it. I just think submerging depots makes things too easy, and so far the number cruncher agrees. It has been off before, and I could be wrong, but it'll take true testing to figure it all out.

No one has yet addressed the fact that Terrans have been walling for a decade already, whether there's submerging depots or not. And you're all also forgetting the fact that in every game we've seen so far, every Terran HAS walled with a Barracks, so what's making it researchable going to do? Nothing. Killing 1000 HP barracks > Killing a 350 HP supply depot.

Making building lift off researched will also add complications such as, wow, now I can't tech switch to a Tech lab to a reactor.

Last but not least, new pathing solves ALL infantry pathing issues. Tanks might have a problem, but then if you make it researched past the tank stage, you're going to have to face the issue that I pointed out in the point before this one. Tech switching.

The whole idea of making any already innate Terran ability researched is complete fail.

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Originally Posted by Pandonetho

No one has yet addressed the fact that Terrans have been walling for a decade already, whether there's submerging depots or not. And you're all also forgetting the fact that in every game we've seen so far, every Terran HAS walled with a Barracks, so what's making it researchable going to do? Nothing. Killing 1000 HP barracks > Killing a 350 HP supply depot.

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If what you're inferring is true (i.e. walling with Barracks is superior early game vs Depots and there is no trade-off when using the Barracks as a gate), then why even have Depots that can be submerged? The overlap between the two would render the latter pointless and unused.

I didn't say it's better. I'm saying making it researched is not solving anything, people already wall with barracks so any point claiming that walling with 3 depots straight off the bat is moot.

Second of all, submerging depots have more functions than just walling a choke. It can wall SMALLER chokes for one, it also conveniences the player. It is also weaker than SC1 supply depots. It can be used to set up a siege where if a player has sufficient funds may set up a wall defense for his attack, submerge and continue his siege.

It also helps conserve space because fact it, supply depots do nothing but take up space. Letting them submerge allows your forces to move to where you got dropped faster and more easily.

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Originally Posted by mr. peasant

If what you're inferring is true (i.e. walling with Barracks is superior early game vs Depots and there is no trade-off when using the Barracks as a gate), then why even have Depots that can be submerged? The overlap between the two would render the latter pointless and unused.

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Because you don't have have to continue to build barracks, but depots you do. Plus if you want to wall in a choke it's much cheaper to do so using multiple depots over a combination of rax's and factories.

Hmm, I wonder what would happen if the Planetary Fortress unlocks Salvage and Submerge/Raise?

It could create tactical tension between choosing an Orbital Command for "quick cash, vision, emergency supply" and a Planetary Fortress for "base security, mobility via gates/walls, emergency refund"?


-Psi

Huh no. It's not because they wall in that you can't scout them. Just send a miner early and voilà! Problem solved. Wall in is pretty much the only way a noob can deal with 2 gate zeal rush and I don't see that changing in SC2. Plus, making this ability a research is pretty useless because by the time you'll have it researched, you'll have more than enough units to defend your base without walling in.

Are you guys considering that in SC1 supply depots used to have 500 hp and now they only have 350? Maybe it's due to them being able to submerge. Terran have used this kind of techniques for ten years and they will still do so in SC2, that's what gives terran their "flavor".
I personally agree with the people who says that making it require research is not the solution and won't solve anything.
However, since a trade-off seems to be needed to get the ability better balanced I hereby suggest there is a difference between submerged and non submerged depots.
Submerged depots are better protected from enemy fire than non submerged ones, right? Right. then, a non submerged depot being used as a wall should have less HP and/or armor than one that is submerged. it's quite logical, a non submerged depot is exposed to fire, while a submerged one can be barely hit at the top!

And along the lines of what S_bird said, the main reason P couldn't get in was because of the unlucky choice in how to scout the map. Had he gone the right way, I'm sure he would've made it in before any wall was established. He just made the choice to scout a certain way, and it ended up being the wrong one, so he "wasted" valuable time.

EDIT: I think Josue has an interesting idea. It would make sense for submerged Supply Depots to take less damage since they have less area exposed and because they are firmly planted in the ground. On another note, does anyone know if submerged Depots are invisible (kinda like a burrowed zerg unit)?

No, they are not invisible. There is virtually no difference between submerged and merged depots besides allowing units to path over them.

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Originally Posted by n00bonicPlague

EDIT: I think Josue has an interesting idea. It would make sense for submerged Supply Depots to take less damage since they have less area exposed and because they are firmly planted in the ground. On another note, does anyone know if submerged Depots are invisible (kinda like a burrowed zerg unit)?

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It would make sense maybe, but it wouldn't be intuitive to a new player, and why would you stick around to kill such a low priority target when the base will be open to you then? I'm 99% sure they're still visible while dropped.


I didn't know depots have only 350 hp now, that makes me worry about depot killing runs :\