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Ok then, next time when I happen on an instance in fiction where "crystals" are used to to blow something up, I'll immediately draw a parallel to them actually being nuclear power cells and not potentially, even in the slightest way, being something magical. :p (relax, I'm just taking the piss)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
By that definition pretty much all but the hardest sci fi is magic. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Functioning as power source, method of control (Enslavers), information storage, energy manipulation, keys, ... yeah. Khaydarin crystals are totally magic plot devices.
The only thing I can think to explain this away is that, like terrazine, Khaydarin comes from another dimension or universe, and are partially organic, sentient creatures as implied by Stettman's research. They are the real Purity of Form here.
Gradius, this is what happens all the time if you're stuck with concepts that you don't know how to fully explain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
Look at it this way: of all the sci-fi novels you've ever read, how many have not had the slightest element of fantasy to them?
Protoss tech is already near sentient, so it'd only make sense if Xel'Naga tech is COMPLETELY sentient. But as yet, we don't know enough on them, especially since the LotV retcon made it seem like practically EVERY piece of Xel'Naga tech in the universe had actually just been Amon's experimental equipment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Visions of Khas
Starcraft 3.
I'd open the game with a scene where we get a montage of all sc2 plot points in a flash, Raynor drops his glass, and wakes up.
He's at Joeys bar, and his hands are shaking.
Raynor: "Adjutant, are my troops ready?"
Then we cut to a scene showing the Terran sector is in a 3rd guild wars.
We can only dream!
The dominion collapsed after an ellection, and the new P starts making demands of the zerg for reparations, starts a war and a civil war due to Xenophobic issues, dividing Valarien and Horner. Toss get draagged in when zerg ask for help, then turn when Abathur and a Queen Executes Zagara (cause its obvious kerrigan mind controlled her).
Just gdt stuff as clusterfucked as possible where everyone has their own agenda.
Pfffft, right, just make the whole SC2 matter non-canon. It's better to try to work with what we've got than do that, though then you'd probably just argue for time travel.Quote:
Originally Posted by GnaReffotsirk
Right now, I think they should reboot the series by starting with one of the parallel cycles/universes. Well, I'd say that IF Blizzard were intent on better story telling and continuity. And if not, give us a time skip where the old cast hands off the reigns to a new generation. Perhaps Mira Han and Matt Horner have a daughter who has taken over as admiral of the Dominion fleets, which has been marginalized by an ever growing Umojan Protectorate.
Edit
I wonder... Maybe we could do both. Maybe a character from the main timeline escapes to a parallel universe. Once there, they are able to predict history because they've lived it. Up until a crucial moment, which devolves into absolute chaos because their predictions were predicated on false assumptions, thus starting a new war. For some reason I see Raynor and Kerrigan "taking turns" with the cycles, one slumbering while the other works on a new creation.
Well, with regards to time travel, we already got that with the whole Beyond Koprulu, when the prophecy was ignored, Kerrigan was killed, and most of the sector fell under Amon's control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Visions of Khas
It'll be fine. Sc2 retconned most of the history and some of the events of Sc1, so having Sc3 reveal that Sc2 was just Raynor's drunken dream is well within being a reasonable turn of events now.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragnarok
Afterall, it was never said that the events Sc2 were not a dream. :rolleyes:
Oh, and it'd still be considered as "Sc2 actually happened". It's just that "Sc2 actually happened... in a dream" is all. Isn't perspective great? ;)
Yes well that can work if the beginning of SC3 we see Tychus walk into the bar to tell Raynor of a proposition again. If nothing else, it would be nice to see the guy one more time...Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Hey Rag, never gotten to ask you this question, do you come into the SC universe via sc2 or vanilla Starcraft? I ask, because we, who came from back in the day, had the plot points of sc and bw before sc2.
There's a difference when looking at the exposition from sc2 to sc1 and vice versa.
For one, I personally, had an idea of the theme of sc1/bw, the plot points there in, the internal conflicts, character interaction and arcs, etc.
I don't know, it's like this: you take robo cop, do a remake, and make him not mourn for his family, and not have that as the core why he cannot fully be reprogrammed.
I have to ask where you are coming from, sincerely, I want to see where you are coming from, and maybe I'll see things the way you do.
Having SC2 be a dream WOULD BE.
Well, I never got into the Robocop series. I did watch a little of old ones, but never watched the reboot and all that, and I never paid too much attention to the storyline there, so I wouldn't know what you were getting at on that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by GnaReffotsirk
Now, for the SC universe, I guess one of the main problems I had with SC1 and BW was that there was a little bit TOO much morally grey areas, and too much using others for their own agendas. Now yes, we all know this happens all the time in real life, but I felt it just painted a bad picture for the characters.
It was almost like the message of the game is "The only way you can beat the beast is if you BECOME the beast." If that's true, then it makes the entire conflict pointless. After all, what good is winning the battle is you're just going to become the very thing you swore to destroy?
The betrayal part too I hated in BW because it proved everything you were hoping for (and this was before I even got really deep into the SC lore) turned out to be false, and all your sacrifices had been for nothing. And BW's ending was basically sending the message "It doesn't matter how hard you try, you'll always lose."
The combination of that, along with the critics, is one of the reason why I eventually lashed out so angrily with the whole "Then just have Amon win at the end of LotV" or "Just make the whole thing a dream."
This is a matter of morality. We all know people get used and manipulated daily, but in games we see this pushed to a much more noticeable limit. I didn't want that in SC2, where you had to actually decide if a character is good or evil (even though they're just POVs).
And that is why I come into the SC universe more on the SC2 side than the vanilla side (despite trying to look at it from both ways). Though at the same time, I didn't try to dive really deep into the SC2 lore until after WoL came out.
Look at it this way: if you knew NOTHING of the SC universe, then played SC2 BEFORE playing SC1 and BW, would you have viewed the SC2 storyline differently?
yes , i would have seen it differently. there are glaring inconsistencies within it, even when viewed in isolation, yes, but certain things would not seem ridiculous.
hey Rag, I appreciate you getting into my question. for what it`s worth, I do think you have a brilliant mind.
are you still on lore of starcraft? or did i get that right, the one podcast thing on youtube?
Ah yes that thing, well Doncroft and I haven't spoken to each other for months now, I don't even know just WHAT he's planning with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by GnaReffotsirk
But that's just my point for SC1 and BW. In fact, in the 12 years between BW and WoL's release, I only viewed like 2-3 SC fanfics anyway, and those for the most part didn't dive too deeply into the lore.
Hell, even right after WoL's release, I didn't dive too deeply into the lore. It was only after I began writing my SC fanfiction, and looking up things on SC wiki, that I realized the lore universe wasn't as shallow as I once thought, and only THEN did I begin to look harder.
Thus I didn't really begin going that deep into the SC lore the focus had shifted to the SC2 lore instead. It was one of the reason why I asked Tura quite a bit on the SC1 manual, because it was so long since I read it.
This depends on what one prefers. If you just don't like gritty, morally grey stuff, then it doesn't matter when you play Sc1 since it's still more gritty and morally grey than Sc2 if you play it before or after.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragnarok
Either way, some people have actually done this and still feel Sc1 tells a better story. I eventually felt the same way on another sci-fi game which also happens to have the same abbreviation of SC: Star Control. My entry into it was the latest one at the time, Star Con 3. I quite liked it at first because it was nothing I had played before and was generally quite good in all areas (as critics attested at the time). But then I got my hands on the previous one (an awesome and free HD remake of which is still available and is called The Ur-quan Masters) and I began to see why the fans of the series disliked it (so much that it's considered non-canon by the fans and even the original creators of Star Con 2!), how pointless it was and how it answered non-important but worthwhile and interesting questions about the nature of certain alien races that were better left unanswered, like it was in Star Con2 (which is partly why Star Con 2 is remembered more fondly).
Incidentally, the very rough plotline of Starcon 3 is sort of like Starcraft 2 in a way in that it's about some evil empire that we fight only to find out that they weren't really that important since there's some greater but vague universal threat that caused the disappearance of the ancient but highly advanced race (the Precursors) that came before to appear right toward the end, only for it to not make much of an appearance and then be overcome (in kind - it was "sated" in Star Con3 rather than killed/defeated) handily with teamwork. It was much worse with Star Con 3 than Starcraft 2 though because there actually wasn't even a final fight for Star Con 3.
Then what specifically happened at the end of Star Con 3?Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
I'd like a return to the atmosphere in StarCraft I, especially the focus on the cyberpunk undertones for the Terrans, and their general disregard for human life. It would be interesting to see Valerian Mengsk work not only against corruption within the Dominion, but against the deeply ingrained message of "every man for himself" in Terran society itself. How do you steer and moderate that kind of culture? This stress could realistically push him into extremes mirroring his father, but his own remorse and guilt would generate a terrible psychological toll on him.
That's a good point. I'd also like to see a return on the Terran side of the cybernetic/genetic alteration stuff. While that risks being cliche, SC1 was always based on 90s sci-fi grunge, when things were more sinister and creepy. Having humans in the K Sector alter themselves (or, alternatively, the UED specifically goes further) could create a rift between the humans and the Protoss. After all, the only logical action after, well, both SCs is that these two races learn to work together better, but since this is a game, there needs to be a reason why the two oppose each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Visions of Khas
Honestly, I wouldn't mind if the game focused mostly on humans. I also wouldn't mind if they created a first person shooter like SC Ghost was going to be. Given the way the Zerg and Protoss are now, I'm not entirely sure what sort of story/game motivation potential either of them have.
Steering that kind of culture would require a period of peace. Certainly the actions from NCO and everything only make the public paranoid for the continue alien threat and everything, which easily drives the disregard for life, including human ones since "it's either you or me."Quote:
Originally Posted by Visions of Khas
You can still do that if they want to keep Nova's story going, since she is still on the Dominion's side, just not under Valerian's command. She can infiltrate the Tal'darim, we can then get to see how Alarak developed his people over the years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
The big bad empire was defeated (which was the majority of the actual opposition you faced while playing) and the existential threat (which was never really much of a threat) went away. Crisis was averted and much rejoicing (I imagine) took place.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragnarok
The irony doesn't stop there because there's also some retconning (of the ending and certain alien race relations/outcomes in Star Con 2) and prophetic visions of doom for this existential threat (right at the start of the game in fact) as well.
In terms of appreciating the story within the game, I'd imagine that both Star Con 3 and Starcraft 2 would be far more enjoyable if one never plays their respective predecessor.
*shrugs* It's just as I was telling Gna: I'm not as critical because I didn't dive deep into the SC lore until after WoL came out, therefore most of what I looked harder into was via SC2 lore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
From a story point of view, SC2 is told by too many heads. It wavers point to point, and doesn't really have a solid conflict at the core.
For example, rebel yell has these elements: As the Aliens continue to wage war in the Terran Sector, the Confederate government's corruption becomes more and more apparent, causing wide-spread rebellion to fester even further among the already discontented and disenfranchised Terran worlds....
There is a core dynamic occurring, driving characters and plot.
BTW, was Kerrigan ever portrayed a mass murderer in SC and or BW? Was there a time she killed civilians or was her victims military only?
Let's see....she killed some civillians when she was first infested, and she wanted to figure out what the Confederates did to her mind. She killed some of Tassadar's and Zeratul's men, and Raynor's men when she was on Char. She manipulated the Protoss into fighting each other in BW, then fought the UED some and manipulated them into fighting each other, then the final Zerg missions....oh, she killed some scientists there.
In other words, Kerrigan probably didn't kill any other civilians other than scientists who were involved in projects she wanted to investigate/destroy. Probably this was more due to her needing to take control of the Zerg, rather than any mercy on her part. She probably would have killed civilians if she saw a need to. Oh, and she got Raynor and Fenix to kill people on Moria. Forgot about that for a sec.
In BW yes, but it was more due to the constant betrayals. Not so much so in SC1, her main purpose was staying on Char to hunt down Tassadar and Zeratul, so not really too much there.Quote:
Originally Posted by GnaReffotsirk
I'm down for a reboot of SC1. SC2 can't be made un-canon, and the original story has potential to be far more rich.
But then they'd get attacked for lack of originality and "repeating the same storylines".
Not sure about "corruption" per se but rather "ineptitude". Duke is the poster-child for this. He's only "corrupt" when he's left no choice but to join Mengsk or left to die. Otherwise, he's a "by the book" loyal pawn to the Confeds.Quote:
Originally Posted by GnaReffotsirk
First, one has to consider whether assassins can also be called mass murderers. That she continued and chose to be an assassin in service of another person (after being freed by this person) would normally incite one to speak ill of her morality already. Second, is the differentiation between civilian and military targets sufficiently meaningful when technically she is part of a pirate/rebel/unsanctioned group that is committing crimes against the established government that everyone else recognises and adheres to as part of their normal lives (no matter how illegitimate or "evil" one may consider that government is)? If one is to exclude motivation and subjective feelings and focus on the act of killing and the number of people killed by direct action of a person, than Kerrigan is indeed a "mass-murderer" (or assassin if you think that is more politically correct/appeases your senses) even by the time Raynor first met her.Quote:
Originally Posted by GnaReffotsirk
@ Turalyon
Here's my problem in specific. Kerrigan was supposedly evil for killing civilians, but I have only seen her do this in WoL. In BW, she manipulated leaders to fight a common enemy, and killed them off as they pose a threat to her power, rule, or hold, but I've never seen her do things like Stukov did in SC2.
Stukov brought hordes of zombified civilians into battle, which we could blame on Kerrigan when she attacked and infected worlds in WoL. But there was never any point in BW that I saw her intentionally attack civilians for the sake of it. There could have been civilian casualties, but I've never seen her attack a civilian population in BW like she did in WoL.
Or did I miss something?
Say we only consider intentional assaults on civilian worlds, without cause or reason, has she ever done this? Ignoring civilian casualties that might have been caught in the way, during military operations.
I ask, because it seems to me, after reviewing BW through mass recall, Kerrigan was:
1. Motivated by lack of control, or being deprived thereof, being a pawn;
2. Goal: Personal security, liberation through domination, and elimination
She could have gone far by killing fenix and Duke, but she killed them for one reason: they, like the UED, are a threat. She didn't kill Raynor, nor Mengsk. At the very beginning, it appears, that Kerrigan expects them to attack her once the UED is disposed of.
Mengsk, as she knew him, would side with anyone to preserve his power. So keeping him in check would ensure her an 'unlikely ally'. Raynor, would do anything to help out if any appears to come along, and he doesn't really pose any threat, rather some value in some way. (I haven't really delved into Raynor's role in BW).
My point is, her acts of aggression was never really directed at civilian populations, but military positions. On moria, that planet was heavily militarized. And as Fenix pointed out, he doesn't like "raids" but rather full battle. So it was more of a raid, but gameplay demanded and allowed for something else.
Or, have I missed a huge chunk of information regarding this issue?
You can settle for the Mass Recall of that, Gradius.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
You have to remember the following, Gna:Quote:
Originally Posted by GnaReffotsirk
If you went to Char first, then Kaldir, or Kaldir first and then Char (as long as Zerus comes 3rd), there's a convo between her and Izsha:
Izsha would tell Kerrigan that she's unable to sense Zeratul, Kerrigan explained that he was gone for now, and wasn't considered a threat. Izsha then commented that anything non-zerg is considered a threat.
Now, Izsha was created by Kerrigan prior to her deinfestation in SC2, as were all the broodmothers, so they were all based off her template on the original QoB. If you recall later in the game, she had ordered broodmothers to attack Dominion industrial worlds. Kerrigan did NOT mention anything about sparing civilians, so therefore the broodmothers would have interpreted this order as "Wreck the planet, kill everyone on it."
Oh I'm sure some would have escaped (like what happened in the Tarsonis invasion in SC1), but plenty would have been killed. Therefore, if nothing else, this is considered criminal negligence if Kerrigan didn't realize civilians would be killed. And this is why it's only upon the reunion with Raynor on the Moros that she finally tried to distance herself from those actions.
That being said, the reason I don't buy Gradius's argument in the past (when he pointed out back when she was under the SoK she had specifically said no one deserved to have the zerg unleashed upon them) is that there's no possible way she could have come out of the infestation years exactly the same.
That'd be like you living through years of urban warfare in your own city with enemy troops bombing, shelling, and then later rape for several years on a DAILY basis, and then pick up right where you left off prior to the war when all this has passed. It's just not going to happen. Any war history book can tell you that for people who experienced warfare, those events take MANY years to fade (and sometimes never fade).
Now, for the whole directing at civilian populations but military positions like what you just said on Moria, you can't expect there'd be NO civilians being caught in the crossfire. Sure you can try to keep it minimal, but still. As there have been those who argued that SC warfare is just like WWII in space, this is why I try to point out to the bombing campaigns in Germany by the western allies (which most history books now admit it certainly went on WAY longer than it had to). You can't exactly expect the allies after the war to be so naive and just say "We didn't know there were civilians in the cities we bombed." So it's no different here, just on a bigger scale.
For those just wanting the TLDR version: some things/acts may be justified but are not always concurrently morally justified.
You don't count the attack on Moria (Mission 3 The Kel-Morian Combine of The Queen of Blades campaign in BW) as being morally reprehensible? Sure, she maybe covering it up as as a "resource raid" but she also asks the Captain to infest some Terran Command Centres...:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by GnaReffotsirk
That sure looks kinda "evil" to me. And if that wasn't enough, think of what this makes Raynor out to be when he is happy to just going along with it all and being jovial with Fenix about it...
You're asking for something that is technically impossible. How can something be "intentional" and yet "without cause or reason"?Quote:
Originally Posted by GnaReffotsirk
All acts that are deemed "evil" have intent, cause or reason at some level. It's just that intent, cause or reason is considered wrong in some way. Besides, even if the intent is right, the act needs some consideration since there could be other alternative ways to act rather than, say, through excessive bloodshed.
I remember having a good conversation with FanaticTemplar a long time ago about assessing the morality of the Overmind's actions and how it can justifiably be considered evil to some degree by others even though it may actually be (or appear to be) amoral.
They are not an immediate threat and she is in a position of power over her "allies". She doesn't really need to kill them but she feels justified in doing so. That's not the same thing as saying it's the right thing to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by GnaReffotsirk
There is a case of this being considered a war-crime. She is attacking and involving a third party that is not even remotely relevant or part of the opposition she has decided to direct hostilities at. One can't just generalise and say that being part of the military excludes them from moral considerations since that sets a dangerous precedent in that all hostile actions against them can be deemed as morally justified.Quote:
Originally Posted by GnaReffotsirk
And yet she did say that Raynor and Fenix were very resourceful. This was said again in WoL when Raynor beat her to the artifact at Monlyth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Moria isn't a third party. Raynor/Kerrigan/Fenix are at war with the UED. Moria is part of the UED and sold out to them, as Fenix mentions in the mission.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
But yeah, infesting other humans is sort of war-crime territory, even though it still served a purpose in the war.
Remember, that from a tactical standpoint infesting removes a soldier from the enemy, and gives you a roughly equal or better soldier. From a tactical point okay, but on civilians who won't attack it is not acceptable by most ethically.
You can call it a war crime all you want Gradius. If you can't get over the fact that she could not have come out of the whole infestation years the same person (or go back to being that person within a few days or something).....Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
Looking over the transcript in BW, I can't find anything about Fenix mentioning that Moria sold out or is part of the UED. All I can find where Fenix even mentions both is this line:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
"It is strange that this Kel-Morian Combine continues to operate whilst the UED grips the Dominion with an iron fist".
That he finds it strange they are still operating whilst all this stuff is going one could just as well mean that the KMC are autonomous and being left alone to pursue their own agendas than it does that they are in cahoots with the UED. No-one in the game even mentions that KMC is in cahoots with the UED or the Dominion at all really.
This. Since Gna was asking about the morality of Kerrigans acts before BW being potentially sound, this act in BW is particularly heinous from a moral/ethical viewpoint.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nolanstar
Given that the KMC were not really involved in the conflict until Kerrigan made it her business to involve them at that particular time (she's the attacker) and that she essentially enslaved and robbed people of their free will solely for her own profit, I'm sure that the morality of that action would be considered evil to some degree.
You can argue that, but you have to remember that she had a point about the UED. If they won, the KMC too would have been enslaved. In that regard (had the alliance actually been a legit one), you could also say that this would have been a small sacrifice for the greater good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon