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forget it, no point
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forget it, no point
I hate to play mod but next time can you put in a useful title
I made a post like this on blizzforums originally,
i dont if anybody remembers
I am very, VERY skeptical of this suggestion. StarCraft 2 so far has far less "niche" units than StarCraft 1 did. Even AtA units tend to have some non-AtA way to be useful. So far, between the three Terran BRs, we've seen EVERY GROUND UNIT they have to offer. And each of them brought something special and unique to the table.Quote:
Originally Posted by rcp181
You really think SC2 would be better off if the Marauder appeared in as few games as the Firebat, the Ghost was, again, useless, and the Hellion was as counter-intuitive as the Vulture -- used as a spellcaster more often than an attacker?
The Hellion is a prime example of SC2's improvements over SC1. It's still a fragile unit with high damage and low survivability. But send it out against an enemy melee force... well, it'll die, but it'll also do the thing it's good at, which is maximizing AoE damage by being surrounded. Now, there's PLENTY of areas for a pro to take advantage of... but the beginner isn't so punished for not knowing the ins-and-outs that the unit is rendered unusable. Perfect example of Blizzard's "easy to learn, hard to master" philosophy.
You really want to say that's a bad thing?
Yess, when StarCraft 2 is released it'll be damn near perfect as far as compared to StarCraft at the same state ... at least until the expansions come out and balancing gets a lot harder.
-- On a side note, I completely agree with pure.Wasted
I'm not going to talk about Starcraft 2 right now, because obviously anything we discuss in regards to that is going to be complete speculation.Quote:
Originally Posted by pure.Wasted
Otherwise, yes. I completely think it would be bad if everything was immediately noob-accessible. Like you said, the game should be easy to learn, but hard to master. Part of the mastery involves learning to use some of those units to their full potential.
Using units like reavers, transports, defilers, DTs, and vultures to their maximum potential is part of what makes this game exciting. This game would be pretty stale if everyone could DT harass like bisu or had flawless defiler usage.
Nowhere did I say they're unusable for newbies, but they are probably going to opt to avoid them for obvious reasons. If some guy sucks at controlling reaver+shuttle, he's probably going to have more success just massing goons or maybe getting some HTs for storm.
Now it looks like I may be the one communicating poorly :( When I said "noob-accessible," I didn't mean newbies can't find uses in those units. I just meant that new players may not be able to use the unit efficiently enough to make it worth their while.
When I first started playing SC loooonnnnggg ago, I thought vultures were terrible because I didn't know to micro them and I was too lazy to use mines correctly :p Then when I saw a good player using them I was like "hooolllyyy shit." That's an effect I hope is preserved for SC2 :)
It'll be interesting to see how different the SC2:WoL incarnation is to the final product with LoV installed. A couple extra units can do a lot to a game like SC and I'm sure Blizzard are already sketching out potential future units for the expansions. Slurps!
I must have missed a part of the conversation. Pure.Wasted said that Hellions are intuitively useful, yet also have depth for the skilled user. But you have somehow twisted this into units that every can use like a skilled player.Quote:
Using units like reavers, transports, defilers, DTs, and vultures to their maximum potential is part of what makes this game exciting. This game would be pretty stale if everyone could DT harass like bisu or had flawless defiler usage.
Where is the connection between what pure.Wasted said and what you're arguing against? Because it seems from my eyes that you're arguing against a strawman that you erected, one that nobody is trying to defend.
Most important of all, there's the issue of useless units. A useless unit is not "useful in skilled hands." Ghosts are not useful in SC1. Even when Boxer uses them to win, they're gimmicks rather than an actual strategy. A gimmick unit that will only ever be used in one in every 5000 matches or so is simply taking up space in the game.
Saying that units should be as usable as possible is not antithetical to having units with significant skill depth. Indeed, these are independent concepts.
I think you definitely missed a part of the conversation. I'm pretty sure I'm not even arguing against him, I was just clarifying my point on what I intended with the word "noob-accessible."Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
Basically, as best as I can tell, he's saying units should be easy to use, and I'm saying using some units to their maximum potential should be hard. Those two don't have to be mutually exclusive. (Just re-read your post and realized this is almost identical to what you said in your last sentence :rolleyes:)
I probably should have put that clarification closer to the top of my earlier post =/
I'm not even sure where you're getting the ghost part from, pretty sure I haven't mentioned ghosts since I was talking with Xyvik, and during that convo I agreed they were one of the units that could definitely be classified as underused (as opposed to something he claimed was underused, like an archon).
Edit: Looks like I didn't mention ghosts there, but that's definitely a concession I wouldn't mind making.
I swore I wouldn't return to this thread but I must at least defend my line of reasoning.
I never once said that units should be easy to use, nor do I ever imply such a thing. I absolutely love units that require skill to use effectively.
There is, however, a very massive difference between a unit that requires skill to use effectively and a unit that cannot be used at all.
A vulture requires skill to use effectively. A scout cannot be used because it is far too expensive and far too ineffectual to do anything; money used on a scout would be far better spent on about a dozen other units. That last part is an imbalance.
To use Generals as my example again: the Inferno Cannons of China require skill to use against units as opposed to buildings. They have a very specific range, both maximum and minimum, and their fire damage can damage your own units as well. It takes time and practice to use them effectively, but you'll still find people using it just about every match. Not everybody uses it effectively, but you will see a very large difference between the people skilled in Inferno Cannons and those who aren't. I happen to be skilled in their use and they come in quite handy against units. Those who aren't skilled with them use them for base assaults.
The point is that you're going to find Inferno Cannons in a large number of matches, but they will be used quite differently and more effectively by those who actually are skilled with them.
You never see the Scout in SC1. Why? It has nothing to do with it requiring more skill. The scout is basically a skill-less unit. You never see the scout because it is too overpriced for its effectiveness and there are units cheaper that do much better. No amount of practice and skill will disguise the fact that the scout is unusable.
There is a large difference here that I was trying to point out.