[Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

What? That's not it at all. I'm saying it's reasonable to assume Mengsk is being practical/hedging his bets by making sure Kerrigan is dead so that the Zerg won't be a potential (and very real) threat later. The threat is Kerrigan - who uses the Zerg as her modus operandi. She is still alive and can still use the Zerg and is therefore still a threat now as she was then, even despite being "deinfested" (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean...).

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You haven't established how the Zerg are supposed to not be a threat without Kerrigan. They certainly were before Kerrigan.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

How so? There are always plot-holes though there are some that are more noticeable and narrative destroying than others. I'm not denying a plothole, just questioning how bad (noticeable and narrative destroying) it really is.

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It's what ties the entire narrative together.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

You keep trying to simplify it like this but when you say "getting Kerrigan so she can fight the Protoss", you really mean "getting Kerrigan so she can fight Protoss on Aiur" (or some later clarification regarding "total Protoss defeat" or other). When I call you up on that, you then deny it when it's very clear that this is what you actually mean (your last few posts about rejecting the value of the Protoss that Kerrigan fights come to mind). Assuming that the general "get Kerrigan to fight Protoss" just naturally means "get Kerrigan to fight the majority of the Protoss at once" is flawed reasoning. When I attempt to clarify it/specify it/nut it out, you then dismiss me of going into minutaie when it is really just laying bare your assumptions.

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When I say "getting Kerrigan so she can fight the Protoss", I really mean "getting Kerrigan so she can fight the Protoss, and fight the Protoss so the Overmind can evolve the perfect Swarm", exactly like I just said. We know what the Overmind's objective was, and it is why it crossed the entire galaxy, shaping the Swarm as it went. We know that it feared the Protoss' power and went to humanity to obtain a determinant in its inevitable conflict with the Protoss. We know that Aiur is the only place where the Overmind can achieve its goal. We know that Kerrigan is supposed to lead the Overmind's minions to complete domination over the Protoss. This is all quite straightforward.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Even aside all of this, if you'd open up your perspective a little bit, you'd realise that my position (no, I'm not talking about the Dark Templar and the lack of a mention regarding their importance, I mean that other interpretation I posited) actually still supports and incorporates this entire narrative. It's not as if you've been able to refute it in any capacity afterall .

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Refute what? You've provided no backing for your hypothesis, you just shaped it to lead to your desired conclusion. The text says that the Overmind needed a counter to the Protoss' actual, physical power, and you'd want me to believe that he didn't need an actual, physical counter but just a symbolic one because... what? The text says that the Overmind believed Kerrigan would be the undoing of the Swarm's enemies, and you'd want me to believe that this only means she will be a symbolic undoing of the Swarm's enemies because... what? The text says that Kerrigan will lead the Overmind's minions to complete domination of the Protoss, and you'd want me to believe that she won't actually be leading them but merely being moral support because... what? More than that, you want me to believe that the Overmind wanted a symbol that would not fight directly, but merely inspire minions to fight on her behalf, and then created a frenzied berserker constantly annoyed at enemies who don't fight her directly and let their minions do the fighting instead? Your position does not support and incorporate the entire narrative, and even if it did, it would have to be actually stated in the story. This is the game's main narrative, you can't just throw out any nonsense and expect the audience to write your story for you. If you want me to accept this position of yours, you're the one who needs to back it up.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

You haven't established how the Zerg are supposed to not be a threat without Kerrigan. They certainly were before Kerrigan.

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Huh, I'm not getting this. You're saying the Zerg were not a perceived threat before Kerrigan? That... doesn't make sense. :confused:

It's either that or you're expecting that Mengsk thinks the Zerg are more threatening with Kerrigan being confirmed dead than they are with Kerrigan still being alive and still being able to control them as reason not to keep on trying to kill her. I would have no idea why Mengsk would even think more of the former than the latter.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

It's what ties the entire narrative together.

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I was asking why does my reasoning equate to saying their are no plot-holes in Sc2? Weren't sure if you were serious or using hyperbole to overgeneralise.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

When I say "getting Kerrigan so she can fight the Protoss", I really mean "getting Kerrigan so she can fight the Protoss, and fight the Protoss so the Overmind can evolve the perfect Swarm", exactly like I just said. We know what the Overmind's objective was, and it is why it crossed the entire galaxy, shaping the Swarm as it went. We know that it feared the Protoss' power and went to humanity to obtain a determinant in its inevitable conflict with the Protoss. We know that Aiur is the only place where the Overmind can achieve its goal. We know that Kerrigan is supposed to lead the Overmind's minions to complete domination over the Protoss. This is all quite straightforward.

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What makes you think Aiur is the only place it can achieve its goal or that Kerrigan must fight there at that exact immediate time? The general mandate for obtaining Kerrigan is to just help fight Protoss in furtherance of the ultimate goal to assimilate Protoss, not that the only way the ultimate goal can be achieved is if Kerrigan is obtained to fight on Aiur immediately.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

The text says that the Overmind needed a counter to the Protoss' actual, physical power, and you'd want me to believe that he didn't need an actual, physical counter but just a symbolic one because... what?

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The manual narrator is an impartial third-party accounting of what the Overmind desires - it never relates objectively that the Overmind needed a counter, only that it subjectively needed a counter. The issue about how to deal with the Protoss is an internal one. The Overmind's "need" is a psychological one for itself. Reductively speaking, Kerrigan is analagous to a "security blanket/comfort object" for the Overmind. It only nears despair before it finds humanity, then it stops feeling that once it discovers that out and finally feels way overconfident once it has the Chrysalis. In the campaign, the Overmind is never fearful of engaging the Protoss nor feels that it can't fight/beat them from the get go. Mind you, all of this in no way denies the actual objective value of having, wanting or using such a "comfort object".

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

The text says that the Overmind believed Kerrigan would be the undoing of the Swarm's enemies, and you'd want me to believe that this only means she will be a symbolic undoing of the Swarm's enemies because... what?

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The Overmind is ensconced in it's own belief, overconfidence and rhetoric. It likes to make pronouncements of things that are yet to happen as if they are predetermined/happening right now. Funny how all of it kinda turned out for it...

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

The text says that Kerrigan will lead the Overmind's minions to complete domination of the Protoss, and you'd want me to believe that she won't actually be leading them but merely being moral support because... what?

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Nope. Never denied she wasn't going to physically lead them. Never denied that she isn't, can't and won't either. Besides, the initial invasion of Aiur and forming a beachhead hardly qualifies as the "complete domination of the Protoss" so it's not a necessity that she be there at that particular moment nor does it deny the opportunity of her doing so later.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

More than that, you want me to believe that the Overmind wanted a symbol that would not fight directly, but merely inspire minions to fight on her behalf, and then created a frenzied berserker constantly annoyed at enemies who don't fight her directly and let their minions do the fighting instead?

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Nope. Never denied she wouldn't fight directly neither.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Your position does not support and incorporate the entire narrative, and even if it did, it would have to be actually stated in the story.

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The story never actually states that the invasion of Aiur is the final crushing blow against the Protoss that Kerrigan will specifically oversee either. You're relying on assumptions, just like I am.

Okay guys, I think an intervention is in order.

I kid. Interesting as always.

I guess I'll share my own thoughts now. Just now finished the campaign. Brutal was actually brutal this time around and i was already incredibly brain fried from real life, so I moved at a snail's pace until the final epilogue mission where I just casual'd from there. So here's my quick thoughts:

1) I'm actually pretty happy with the product. No, it's not the worthy successor to Brood War that we all wanted, but I enjoyed it regardless. I can work with shallow, rip offs of true scifi with some obvious influences. I can't work with a romance story that butchers everything good about the original. I didn't get that level of problems as I was playing. Obvious epilogue shenanigans aside, I could almost call this an actual scifi, RTS campaign. I guess I'll just say I didn't hate it.

2) As I said before, it's clearly borrowed more heavily than usual from scifi novels. There were several particular moments that I felt like it was exact carbon copies of novels I've read recently. Which is fine, StarCraft is supposed to be a mixture of scifi influences put together with old Blizzard charm. I can even appreciate the Cthulhu mythos influences. If you're going to force a fantasy god into a scifi story, you might as well go straight Lovecraft. Amon was handled better than I thought he would be. The last epilogue mission, in particular, was pretty epic, and I wasn't cringing like I was with Mengsk. Yes, I would have preferred if the villain was a single, more 'realistic' character like Alarak or whoever, but, it wasn't so bad.

3) Since the game focused so much on scifi themes I find it easier to make the connection between the original games and the new ones. That is to say, I don't entirely feel like they're completely unrelated universes, just, really, really, really different spinoffs of each other.

4) Zeratul's death was handled better than Deckard Cain's, at least ... so .... there's that .... Kind of glad they ended him, he was getting sad to watch. Too bad they didn't end Kerrigan, but, at least, it's not painfully obvious at the moment that she'll be in the new Amon if SC3 ever comes around.

5) Eye flare is fine. Damnit.

Then again, all of this optimism might just be the result of years of dwindling interest and extremely low expectations. Truth be told, I had a hard time even forcing myself to play it. I actually was able to study and do tedious research and statistics without feeling tempted to play the game. So, I dunno, maybe my relative enjoyment of the game compared to everyone else is simply that I've moved on more than most here.

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Originally Posted by TheEconomist

Kind of glad they ended him, he was getting sad to watch.

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This feeling kind of extends to all of Sc2 in general. ;)

Eye flare is trash.

but with that aside, I finally got into it, haven't played in a couple of days, but the first 5 missions weren't as SHIT as any of HotS fucking missions.

(I always start on Hard difficulty these days)

I actually had to restart the first Shakuras mission a couple of times because I was trying goofy unorthodox tactics that finally payed off.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

This feeling kind of extends to all of Sc2 in general. ;)

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Not all of SC2, but the problem was the prophecy in the end proved itself so damn vague that people have a hard time figuring out what it was talking about, so practically no action could be taken until it was almost too late to matter

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

Not all of SC2, but the problem was the prophecy in the end proved itself so damn vague that people have a hard time figuring out what it was talking about, so practically no action could be taken until it was almost too late to matter

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No idea what you're talking about.... I was just joking that I'm glad Sc2 is ended cos it was sad watching it.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

No idea what you're talking about.... I was just joking that I'm glad Sc2 is ended cos it was sad watching it.

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In terms of the story, many have said similarly because how different it was from SC1 and turned too far away from how it should have been.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

This feeling kind of extends to all of Sc2 in general. ;)

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I agree, that's something else I should've mentioned. I feel relief now that its over. Almost like a healing process has begun. Although I'm not sure why.

Hey, sorry for disappearing like that. I got super busy during the holidays, and then sort of never came back. To be honest, my interest in posting here is pretty heavily linked to my passion for StarCraft, and Legacy of the Void really hurt.

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my interest in posting here is pretty heavily linked to my passion for StarCraft, and Legacy of the Void really hurt.

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Get in line, buddy. :(

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Originally Posted by KaiseStratosTygo

Get in line, buddy. :(

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Still in the fuming state, Stratos? I had hoped it would have cooled off by now

Letting go is a twelve step process. At least you aren't stuck in denial.

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Originally Posted by TheEconomist

Letting go is a twelve step process. At least you aren't stuck in denial.

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Didn't Fanatic also say that Brood Wars wasn't as Good as Wings of Liberty?

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Hey, sorry for disappearing like that. I got super busy during the holidays, and then sort of never came back. To be honest, my interest in posting here is pretty heavily linked to my passion for StarCraft, and Legacy of the Void really hurt.

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Many of us are, Blizzard just needs to go back to HotS and restart the story after the Umojan arc

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

Still in the fuming state, Stratos? I had hoped it would have cooled off by now

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My anger for this ravaged franchise will never cease.

Never.

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Originally Posted by KaiseStratosTygo

My anger for this ravaged franchise will never cease.

Never.

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I'll check back with you in a few months.

Question. This quote:

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Rohana: It is hard to believe we stand above Ulnar-the home of the lhan-rii, the xel'naga. The judicators theorized the xel'naga left Aiur to return to a place such as this. It is said they slumbered through the ages.

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I thought the Xel'Naga never visited Aiur, only Amon's followers. Artanis says so himself:

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Artanis: Purity of essence and form, the zerg and the protoss! But if the Xel'Naga do not interfere... then It was Amon who uplifted my people. All we thought was the xel'naga, was a lie.

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So...where did Rohana get her idea from?

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I thought the Xel'Naga never visited Aiur, only Amon's followers. Artanis says so himself:

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It's possible some of Amon's followers told the ancient Protoss of their home world. Well, home pyramid. It would be reasonable for the Protoss to guess that Amon's group went back "home".

I wouldn't mind reading Gradius's thoughts on the new Nova missions.

It'll probably have the same vibe as the LotV review anyways, but we'll have to wait and see.