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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
In other words, simply being a bad guy doesn't make Kerri simplistic. Her needlessly cruel acts were not needless in her own mind, because her actions were an expression of her anguish at having a past of being nothing more than various people's pawns.
And that's something we see even in real life. If you've been forced to spend way too long under someone else's boot, and that person is a power abuser and everything, it'll cause you to lash out in anger at other people. I've seen it happen. The only thing Blizzard did was take this to a much bigger scale.
This was exactly what happened in Kerrigan's case. After the betrayal on Tarsonis, let's just say she felt humanity was too corrupt and therefore unworthy to survive. Even by the time of HotS it was the case. To her, at least the Raiders made efforts to try toppling Mengsk, whereas everyone else in the Dominion simply stood behind him like a mindless donkey or something. Thus as far as she was concerned, it wasn't her problem if they get caught in the crossfire. After all, she felt her actions would be justified because of their inability to do anything about Mengsk.
You have to remember this is the EXACT same mentality the western allies had towards the Germans when the war ended in 1945, certainly so after the discovery of the concentration camps. To them, the German people as a whole were responsible because they allowed Hitler to carry out such whims, were incapable of checking his perversions, who didn't rise up against him, and who showed indifference to brutality.
The difference here is in the lore, we never really got to see how the Dominion people themselves (on the core worlds) were treated under Mengsk's rule
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
And I disagree again. What it means to him (ignoring SC/BW) is its ability to save Kerri. He's doing it for her, even against the objections of his crew. He's not making decisions about his own life, but rather what he thinks is best for her. Kerrigan also cares and acts about what she wants. Thus, her desires are the real focus here.
You are wrong. This isn't some interpretative thing either, this is stated flat-out in Wings of Liberty, multiple times:
Matt Horner: "Apparently she was something else, before the Zerg took her, turned her into that."
Tychus Findlay: "And Jimmy feels responsible."
~ Queen of Blades
Matt Horner: "What happened to Kerrigan wasn't your fault."
Jim Raynor: "Which part? Where she got left behind? Or where she murdered eight billion people?"
~ Who We Choose to Be
Arcturus Mengsk: "[...] even you've got to realise that treacherous bitch cannot be saved, and neither can you."
~ Dangerous Game
All of it from cinematics in the main plotline too, not any of those subquest branches. What Kerrigan wants doesn't enter into it, at all. Hell, people don't even know what she wanted in Wings of Liberty.
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
This is pure SC2 retcon. BW Raynor totally gave up on her when Fenix died (and it's crackheaded that he suddenly cared about that again in HotS). Probably already gave up on himself, too, what with losing so much more than just a girl.
No no, remember, it's not your or my perspective that matters. It's Raynor's. Would a man realistically see her as a victim, particularly when he isn't privy to all the information the player gets to see? Also, is Raynor willing to disregard justice for the sake of saving her? While I'd be willing to believe he might go back on his vow to kill her, we have to ask ourselves if he wouldn't allow her to stand trial, or if he was capable/willing to get her if she were captured by others. Kerrigan is guilty of a lot, and he's not going to wisk her away into the sunset. Even if he could disregard his vow to kill her (it would have been delicious if he didn't), their relationship was not a romance, nor was she his only failure.
No. I can corroborate my claims with quotes - from StarCraft and Brood War no less:
Raynor blames Mengsk for everything...
"You mean like you sacrificed Kerrigan?" ~ The Hammer Falls
"Shut up, Arcturus. If I wanted your damn opinion, I would've beaten it out of ya'. And in case you forgot, you're the reason she became what she is in the first place!" ~ The Kel-Morian Combine
... and he blames himself
"Damnit! I shouldn't have let her go alone." ~ The Hammer Falls
I'll also add that Raynor's suicidal need to save her is also established in those games, both in his risking the Dominion and the Swarm based on nothing but dreams of her calling to him from Char in Agent of the Swarm, and in his stupid need to help her against the United Earth Directorate in Queen of Blades despite knowing what she'd become.
Your assertion that he thoroughly changes his character and opinions - conveniently, after he disappears from the game - is completely unsubstantiated.
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
Also, is Raynor willing to disregard justice for the sake of saving her? While I'd be willing to believe he might go back on his vow to kill her, we have to ask ourselves if he wouldn't allow her to stand trial, or if he was capable/willing to get her if she were captured by others. Kerrigan is guilty of a lot, and he's not going to wisk her away into the sunset.
This is complete nonsense. Trial by whom? Which character doesn't have blood on their hands? Is Raynor not responsible for the deaths of multitudes for his commanding role in the bloody rebellion that put mad dictator Arcturus Mengsk in power? Maybe he should get his original Protoss best friend Tassadar, the eternally revered hero, to judge her. Presumably his responsibility in three Terran planetary genocides - including Mar Sara, Raynor's own planet - would give him great perspective into the crimes of galactic butchers.
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
Not really. Certainly not equally, in any case.
Not equally, no. And Raynor is the only one to have fallen into a mess of alcoholism and depression countered only by a futile lust for revenge. He is the most thoroughly affected of the characters, which is, as you've just pointed out, exactly what we should expect. So characterisation seems to be spot on.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
You are wrong. This isn't some interpretative thing either, this is stated flat-out in Wings of Liberty, multiple times:
Matt Horner: "Apparently she was something else, before the Zerg took her, turned her into that."
Tychus Findlay: "And Jimmy feels responsible."
~ Queen of Blades
Matt Horner: "What happened to Kerrigan wasn't your fault."
Jim Raynor: "Which part? Where she got left behind? Or where she murdered eight billion people?"
~ Who We Choose to Be
Arcturus Mengsk: "[...] even you've got to realise that treacherous bitch cannot be saved, and neither can you."
~ Dangerous Game
All of it from cinematics in the main plotline too, not any of those subquest branches. What Kerrigan wants doesn't enter into it, at all. Hell, people don't even know what she wanted in Wings of Liberty.
Okay, fine, I phrased it wrong. Raynor is still obsessed with her throughout the game, and considers her stuff priority over his own interests, or the interests of his men. She's not on screen, but she's the focus.
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No. I can corroborate my claims with quotes - from StarCraft and Brood War no less:
So? While Raynor certainly knows she's been victimized, and he does blame himself, neither of those are my points. He doesn't see her as a victim, because he's seen what she's become. It's way past victimhood now, and she has become something evil. You can't cite him rescuing her on Char as a reason, because that was before Kerrigan did anything as a Zerg. That, and him supporting her in BW was always done with suspicion. And is something of a plot hole -- at some point he really should have realized that killing humans to make the Zerg stronger so that they could kill more humans is pretty dumb. As is, Raynor didn't trust her even then. Nor is there the slightest evidence Raynor cared about her romantically. That, and he was bound to find out what Kerrigan did to the Protoss.
What all that boils down to is this: It's freaking stupid to have Raynor romantically interested in a mutated, selfish, manipulative violent mass murderer.
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This is complete nonsense. Trial by whom? Which character doesn't have blood on their hands? Is Raynor not responsible for the deaths of multitudes for his commanding role in the bloody rebellion that put mad dictator Arcturus Mengsk in power? Maybe he should get his original Protoss best friend Tassadar, the eternally revered hero, to judge her. Presumably his responsibility in three Terran planetary genocides - including Mar Sara, Raynor's own planet - would give him great perspective into the crimes of galactic butchers.
I was using trial as a hypothetical, in the sense that Raynor might have felt that Kerrigan deserved to face her crimes. It has nothing to do with anyone else's crimes, or the larger philosophic questions. People can't make pragmatic decisions on that sort of thing. Pragmatically speaking, the major human governments and Protoss might forgive each other in the interest of surviving. Politics! Read about Yalta sometime. In any case, while what you're saying here is important, it's more important for historians in the K Sector's future rather than people currently having to choose between bad and worse.
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Not equally, no. And Raynor is the only one to have fallen into a mess of alcoholism and depression countered only by a futile lust for revenge. He is the most thoroughly affected of the characters, which is, as you've just pointed out, exactly what we should expect. So characterisation seems to be spot on.
Eh...not really. People aren't just one characteristic. I mean, that would be acceptable if he were a background character, but Raynor's up front. He has more than one issue going on. That, and they didn't go far enough with his major depression. It would've been great if he were on the edge of despair, and the people around him had to support him and save him from his severe depression.
While Blizz did remember the depression, they didn't remember that it's unrealistic for Raynor to love Kerrigan. They also made him kill 'Toss for money (he didn't immediately know that the Tal'darim were bad) and spout generic "heroic" dialogue. Gone is the redneck we know and love. Though, to be fair, they didn't mangle him as bad as Zeratul.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
Did you see the thread where we were talking about Kerrigan's motivations? I can't remember which one that was. In any case, in it, we'd discussed how Kerrigan was acting in BW in a way that would allow her to remain outside Overmind control as well as satisfy her sick desires for revenge. We also pointed out how there was a difference between how Kerri treated people who had personally affected her, and those that were simply in her way. She was willing to let Mengsk and Zeratul live, because torturing them was more fun than simply killing them off. Aldaris and DuGalle, on the other hand, were just people in the way, and she disposed of them quickly.
In other words, simply being a bad guy doesn't make Kerri simplistic. Her needlessly cruel acts were not needless in her own mind, because her actions were an expression of her anguish at having a past of being nothing more than various people's pawns.
Again, that's not how the story was presented. Raynor was acting in a way that gave Kerrigan what she wanted, and Kerrigan was making her own choices to achieve what she alone wanted. Clearly she's a bigger driving force in the plot than good ol' Jimmy boy.
It doesn't make sense. In Rebel Yell she opposes using the zerg even on the people who made her life miserable for a decade (the confederacy had her between 8 and 18 years old). She went along with Antiga prime because that was on soldiers (but even than she feels dirty) and on tarsonis she didn't know until Duke activated them (implying she wouldn't have supported it if Mengsk told her before hand) even then she only goes along with it because she still naively thinks Mengsk will do the right thing in the end.
In BW she just goes over the top in making Zeratul and the toss suffer even though they didn't do anything. That's what I mean when Kerrigan is a comic villain. She enjoyed the act of hurting fenix and razsegal and twisting the knife in. The idea that she would just decide that hurting people was fun after getting infested and free is just.....stupid.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
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Originally Posted by
DarthYam
In BW she just goes over the top in making Zeratul and the toss suffer even though they didn't do anything. That's what I mean when Kerrigan is a comic villain. She enjoyed the act of hurting fenix and razsegal and twisting the knife in. The idea that she would just decide that hurting people was fun after getting infested and free is just.....stupid.
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And that, Zeratul, is a better revenge than I could've ever dreamed of
Kerrigan in BW and Wings of Liberty had quotes that didn't even make sense. What did Zeratul do to her or the Zerg for there to be revenge?
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
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Kerrigan in BW and Wings of Liberty had quotes that didn't even make sense. What did Zeratul do to her or the Zerg for there to be revenge?
To explain Kerrigan's role and personality in HotS, I've gone with the theory that she's been an abused and neglected child her entire life without any sense of agency. Finally, she is given extraordinary power and freedom, with all inhibitions erased by the Zerg. From a twisted perspective such as hers, the simple act of defiance deserves retribution.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
Okay, fine, I phrased it wrong. Raynor is still obsessed with her throughout the game, and considers her stuff priority over his own interests, or the interests of his men. She's not on screen, but she's the focus.
Right, but she's just the driving element. She's like the One Ring and Raynor is Frodo. The story's not actually about the Ring, but about the decisions and journey Frodo makes because he came into possession of it.
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
So? While Raynor certainly knows she's been victimized, and he does blame himself, neither of those are my points. He doesn't see her as a victim, because he's seen what she's become.
So? If your dog gets rabies and needs to be put down, then it needs to be put down, but you don't start hating it.
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
You can't cite him rescuing her on Char as a reason, because that was before Kerrigan did anything as a Zerg.
I cited that as precedent for putting himself and his crew in ridiculous danger out of a desperate need to assuage his guilt.
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
Nor is there the slightest evidence Raynor cared about her romantically.
Sure there is, but even if you want to believe there wasn't, romance has pretty much no importance to the story of Wings of Liberty.
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
What all that boils down to is this: It's freaking stupid to have Raynor romantically interested in a mutated, selfish, manipulative violent mass murderer.
But it's not stupid at all to have him be romantically interested in an idealised fantasy of a woman who was taken away from him by cruel betrayal. She's the one Raynor is trying to get back, he's certainly not interested in the genocidal maniac Queen of Blades in Wings of Liberty.
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
I was using trial as a hypothetical, in the sense that Raynor might have felt that Kerrigan deserved to face her crimes. It has nothing to do with anyone else's crimes, or the larger philosophic questions. People can't make pragmatic decisions on that sort of thing. Pragmatically speaking, the major human governments and Protoss might forgive each other in the interest of surviving. Politics! Read about Yalta sometime. In any case, while what you're saying here is important, it's more important for historians in the K Sector's future rather than people currently having to choose between bad and worse.
No, what I'm saying is very simple: Raynor was best buddies with the guy who committed planetary genocide multiple times and killed pretty much everyone Raynor knew on Mar Sara. And Tassadar wasn't possessed at the time. This whole "Kerrigan did things that were WRONG and Raynor should never be able to forgive her!" thing is completely absurd.
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
Eh...not really. People aren't just one characteristic. I mean, that would be acceptable if he were a background character, but Raynor's up front. He has more than one issue going on. That, and they didn't go far enough with his major depression. It would've been great if he were on the edge of despair, and the people around him had to support him and save him from his severe depression.
No it wouldn't. Seriously, one man's battle against crippling depression handled in a realistic way is not the story for any kind of RTS wargame. And it certainly doesn't fit with the story of the original games.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
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Originally Posted by
Visions of Khas
To explain Kerrigan's role and personality in HotS, I've gone with the theory that she's been an abused and neglected child her entire life without any sense of agency. Finally, she is given extraordinary power and freedom, with all inhibitions erased by the Zerg. From a twisted perspective such as hers, the simple act of defiance deserves retribution.
That's how it always works in real life. When you've been abused your whole life and then suddenly turned loose, you go crazy with power right away, and that can take years to fix, sometimes it's not even fixable.
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Originally Posted by
DarthYam
In BW she just goes over the top in making Zeratul and the toss suffer even though they didn't do anything. That's what I mean when Kerrigan is a comic villain. She enjoyed the act of hurting fenix and razsegal and twisting the knife in. The idea that she would just decide that hurting people was fun after getting infested and free is just.....stupid.
Not that, DarthYam. This is what happens when you go through a life of abuse. You tend to lash out at others, even those who never once wronged you, simply because you now have the power to do something about it. Going crazy with power happens a lot in this case, I've seen it happen in real life.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Right, but she's just the driving element. She's like the One Ring and Raynor is Frodo. The story's not actually about the Ring, but about the decisions and journey Frodo makes because he came into possession of it.
Again, that's not how it was presented. Kerrigan motivated WoL, turned HotS into a romance novel, and stole the show from the Protoss by becoming the Xel'Naga. Let's face it. Though other characters were used, it was all about Kerri here.
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So? If your dog gets rabies and needs to be put down, then it needs to be put down, but you don't start hating it.
I question the appropriateness of comparing a rabid dog to a murderous woman. Also, clearly Raynor hated her in BW. If you can't see that, well, there's nothing I can do.
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I cited that as precedent for putting himself and his crew in ridiculous danger out of a desperate need to assuage his guilt.
Okay. Still a Kerri driven story.
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Sure there is, but even if you want to believe there wasn't, romance has pretty much no importance to the story of Wings of Liberty.
Not true. Raynor's behaviors and the way people reacted to his gloom about Kerri indicates that he was shown to have feelings for her. I would say nothing on the matter if HotS hadn't turned into a romance novel, but in hindsight it's pretty obvious that the two were being set up that way.
On the other hand, WoL was pretty scatterbrained, so not much of anything was of any importance. Especially since none of Raynor's actions other than getting the artifact and de-infesting Kerrigan had any affect at all on the later games. Seriously, there wasn't even any consequences for that whole Mengsk controversy thing.
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But it's not stupid at all to have him be romantically interested in an idealised fantasy of a woman who was taken away from him by cruel betrayal. She's the one Raynor is trying to get back, he's certainly not interested in the genocidal maniac Queen of Blades in Wings of Liberty.
I honestly don't believe he could ever see her that way again. Not least because their relationship in SC was never romantic, so there's no foundation for falling in love with an illusion. Moreover, I hate how his characterization is suddenly all about her. In SC/BW, he was a guy desperately trying to get things right, only to make mistake after mistake. Imo, he's been so burnt by now that I don't think Raynor would trust much of anyone, besides possibly Protoss. It's not merely about being burned by Kerri, but also Mengsk and the Confederacy. He lives in a world where near about everything is against him. That's so interesting, and is almost entirely ignored.
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No, what I'm saying is very simple: Raynor was best buddies with the guy who committed planetary genocide multiple times and killed pretty much everyone Raynor knew on Mar Sara. And Tassadar wasn't possessed at the time. This whole "Kerrigan did things that were WRONG and Raynor should never be able to forgive her!" thing is completely absurd.
1. Tassadar was repentant. Kerri was not.
2. Tassadar was chaotic in his pursuit of good. Kerri was violent in her pursuit of personal goals.
3. Tassadar restrained himself despite his orders. Kerri relished in punishing her enemies.
4. Tassadar showed himself eager to change when confronted with new ideas. Kerri wants what she wants, damn the consequences.
5. Tassadar and Jim were buds, and not people forced into an artificial relationship.
That, and forgiving a person is entirely different from falling in love with them. I could buy that Raynor might forgive her if it were under credible circumstances. I will never accept that Raynor would then choose to love her, or so much as trust her, ever again.
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No it wouldn't. Seriously, one man's battle against crippling depression handled in a realistic way is not the story for any kind of RTS wargame. And it certainly doesn't fit with the story of the original games.
Oh, it totally could. I was just talking about his base persona there, anyway. He starts the game in a slump, but bigger circumstances force him to come out of the bar and try to trust himself again. Raynor is always driven by what he thinks is good, but his past should have scarred him into thinking he'd just make horrible mistakes again. But then the Zerg, Mengsk, or maybe hybrids start acting up, and Raynor is forced to accept the failures of his past and move forward. Or, alternatively, he starts getting serious about his vow to kill Kerrigan, and he accumulates power over time to finally finish the job. So long as competent details are added, it could have worked.
Though note that I'm also assuming that the gameplay wouldn't revolve solely around Jim. SC2's focus on one central character really killed a lot of plot potential, compared to SC1.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
Again, that's not how it was presented.
Yes, it was. I've already given you the quotes. Kerrigan does practically nothing of interest in Wings of Liberty.
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
I question the appropriateness of comparing a rabid dog to a murderous woman.
Well, yeah. But comparing her to a woman getting possessed by an alien isn't really a metaphor so much as a description.
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
Also, clearly Raynor hated her in BW. If you can't see that, well, there's nothing I can do.
Yeah, that's all in your head. The characterisation is entirely consistent with all of Raynor's character throughout StarCraft and Brood War. If you think he turned around completely after he left the game, that's not actual canon.
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
Not true. Raynor's behaviors and the way people reacted to his gloom about Kerri indicates that he was shown to have feelings for her.
Nah, Tychus just interpreted it wrong because he can't imagine a man and a woman being close without sex being involved, and Matt was just angry and calling her his 'girlfriend' in a "if you like her so much why don't you marry her?' kind of taunt.
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
On the other hand, WoL was pretty scatterbrained, so not much of anything was of any importance. Especially since none of Raynor's actions other than getting the artifact and de-infesting Kerrigan had any affect at all on the later games. Seriously, there wasn't even any consequences for that whole Mengsk controversy thing.
That's still a whole lot more consequences than Brood War.
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
I honestly don't believe he could ever see her that way again. Not least because their relationship in SC was never romantic, so there's no foundation for falling in love with an illusion.
Your vision of a world where there were no romantic feelings between Raynor and Kerrigan in StarCraft is a mystifying one.
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
Moreover, I hate how his characterization is suddenly all about her. In SC/BW, he was a guy desperately trying to get things right, only to make mistake after mistake.
Are you kidding? Raynor's entire involvement in Brood War revolved around Kerrigan. And not in that weird way you think she was the centre of Wings of Liberty, either. Just straight up helping her with all of her plans out of some desperate denial of what she'd become.
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
1. Tassadar was repentant. Kerri was not.
Kerrigan was plenty repentant after she got deinfested. Tassadar was "repentant" in the sense that he literally says "Whatever leniency I extended to you and your comrades before, may have been in error.". He believes he was not harsh enough with the Terrans.
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
2. Tassadar was chaotic in his pursuit of good. Kerri was violent in her pursuit of personal goals.
"Planetary genocide because I was told to" is less "chaotic" and more "Neuremberg defense".
Of course, if you want to go the route where this was necessary to prevent the Zerg apocalypse, it also bears mentioning that his decision to abandon that method directly lead to the creation of the Queen of Blades.
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
3. Tassadar restrained himself despite his orders. Kerri relished in punishing her enemies.
Kerrigan spared Raynor and his men, despite the Overmind's orders.
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
4. Tassadar showed himself eager to change when confronted with new ideas. Kerri wants what she wants, damn the consequences.
Kerrigan actually changed.
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
5. Tassadar and Jim were buds, and not people forced into an artificial relationship.
"Hey, are you the guy who wiped out my planet? Let's develop a natural relationship based on that! Not like this artificial notion of "falling for a coworker", who ever heard of anything stupid like that?"
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
That, and forgiving a person is entirely different from falling in love with them. I could buy that Raynor might forgive her if it were under credible circumstances. I will never accept that Raynor would then choose to love her, or so much as trust her, ever again.
Wait, wait, you forgot one!
6. Tassadar was acting of his own free will, Kerrigan WAS POSSESSED BY EVIL ALIENS.
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
Oh, it totally could. I was just talking about his base persona there, anyway. He starts the game in a slump, but bigger circumstances force him to come out of the bar and try to trust himself again. Raynor is always driven by what he thinks is good, but his past should have scarred him into thinking he'd just make horrible mistakes again. But then the Zerg, Mengsk, or maybe hybrids start acting up, and Raynor is forced to accept the failures of his past and move forward. Or, alternatively, he starts getting serious about his vow to kill Kerrigan, and he accumulates power over time to finally finish the job. So long as competent details are added, it could have worked.
...
That's the story of Wings of Liberty.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
That's how it always works in real life. When you've been abused your whole life and then suddenly turned loose, you go crazy with power right away, and that can take years to fix, sometimes it's not even fixable.
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Not that, DarthYam. This is what happens when you go through a life of abuse. You tend to lash out at others, even those who never once wronged you, simply because you now have the power to do something about it. Going crazy with power happens a lot in this case, I've seen it happen in real life.
I can see her being angry at the world and lashing out (hell that's what she does in heart of the swarm). But going from an idealist with clear standards to torturing for the evulz is bad writing.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
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Originally Posted by
DarthYam
I can see her being angry at the world and lashing out (hell that's what she does in heart of the swarm). But going from an idealist with clear standards to torturing for the evulz is bad writing.
And that was exactly the flaw that HotS suffered from
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
Aah, epic walls of text, how I missed thee! I'm kinda feeling missed out here. :p
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Not sure that would've been enough for Raynor to consider allying with a Mengsk, though.
That's a good point. Makes me wonder what Raynor's reaction would be if Valerian saying that he could offer a chance to kill Kerrigan (instead of a chance to save her) in Heir Apparent. Would he have just shot him then and there? :D
Then again, Raynor doesn't really gain much from an alliance with Valerian since Raynor pretty much ends up doing things all on his own anyway. Valerian's main purpose/value in the structure of the narrative is really just to give exposition about the artifact and to trigger the beginning of the end of WoL's plot. It doesn't really necessitate Raynor having to be buddy-buddy with Valerian to make their association an alliance of convenience more than anything else.
I mean, it's kinda odd in WoL that Valerian knows Raynor so well that he can actually determine Raynor's wish of saving Kerrigan before he's even met the man or likely know of anything about him at all if Mengsk Snr had anything to do with it. Now, we don't know if it was somehow made public, but the last transmission that Raynor ever made regarding Kerrigan was his vehemence in killing her in True Colors. How does Valerian know otherwise? It'd be more plausible for him to think that Raynor wants to kill Kerrigan since he has record of him saying that. Afterall, an adjutant recording of Mengsk's rant in The Hammer Falls was available, why not that?
His offer to ask Raynor's help in killing Kerrigan still works since a) he believes Raynor's knowledge of Kerrigan maybe an asset in the upcoming battle and b) it still preys on Raynor wanting some sort of closure/redemption regarding Kerrigan. As to Raynor not accepting the alliance if the reveal was the killing (instead of the saving of) Kerrigan, well, one has consider what made him accept Valerians' offer in WoL in the first place. He's just trusting Valerian at his word, when he could've been lying. Therefore, I don't think Raynor's inherent distrust of the Mengsk family is really that strong to deny the offer of an alliance to kill Kerrigan (if it was revealed to be that) since in WoL, he just takes/trusts Valerian's word that he can save her as is. If Raynor really hated the Mengsk family, he would be more distrusting of/unwilling to ally with Valerian if he offered to save her since his supposed bad perception of the Mengsks would make him thinks there's a trick. I think Raynor would trust Valerian more if he revealed he intended to kill her.
Still, if that wasn't enough for Raynor to permit himself a temporary alliance with Valerian, it could've easily been a perfect spot to display some of that prime Mengsk assholery by having Valerian insinuating that Raynor would be best to help him. By joining with Valerian, Raynor would get kudos and a pardon when Valerian reaps the benefit of ending the threat of the Zerg. The alternative is that he'd just offer Raynor up to Mengsk Snr. if he refused to comply, whilst Valerian alone reaps the benefit of ending the threat of Kerrigan but also delivering the "terrorist" Raynor to "justice". Of course, it would need to rejig the Heir Apparent cinematic for that to work (which I don't mind since it's ludicrous enough that Raynor got as far as he did in almost killing Valerian and for Valerian being so dumb to risk his life just for a dramatic introduction) but it would help sell that Valerian meant business and that he had some real cajones.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Yes, it was. I've already given you the quotes. Kerrigan does practically nothing of interest in Wings of Liberty.
Again, it's not what she's doing, it's that she's the driving motivator, and the only real consequence of the WoL. Nothing else Raynor does matters.
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Well, yeah. But comparing her to a woman getting possessed by an alien isn't really a metaphor so much as a description.
Which is why your rabid dog metaphor doesn't work.
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Yeah, that's all in your head. The characterisation is entirely consistent with all of Raynor's character throughout StarCraft and Brood War. If you think he turned around completely after he left the game, that's not actual canon.
All in my head? What, so he threatened to kill her because he loved her? You keep using "throughout" and not looking at how it ends between them. Raynor's behavior towards her in SC is mostly irrelevant, because by the end of BW they've both changed. You can't use Raynor's earlier feelings to justify his behavior after he's been horribly betrayed by Kerrigan in the final Zerg missions. Raynor has trusted too much and been burned too much for it to work. It appears you so badly want to see this as a possible romance, that you're willing to ignore what's right in front of your eyes.
And no, that's not the story of WoL. WoL is a collection of mismatched storylines where a still somewhat optimistic "Raynor" attempts to do various things. His depression is mentioned, but rarely plot-affective. He isn't pulled back from despair and he's not obviously motivated by killing Kerrigan. WoL only uses his depression as occasional set-dressing.
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Still, if that wasn't enough for Raynor to permit himself a temporary alliance with Valerian, it could've easily been a perfect spot to display some of that prime Mengsk assholery by having Valerian insinuating that Raynor would be best to help him. By joining with Valerian, Raynor would get kudos and a pardon when Valerian reaps the benefit of ending the threat of the Zerg. The alternative is that he'd just offer Raynor up to Mengsk Snr. if he refused to comply, whilst Valerian alone reaps the benefit of ending the threat of Kerrigan but also delivering the "terrorist" Raynor to "justice". Of course, it would need to rejig the Heir Apparent cinematic for that to work (which I don't mind since it's ludicrous enough that Raynor got as far as he did in almost killing Valerian and for Valerian being so dumb to risk his life just for a dramatic introduction) but it would help sell that Valerian meant business and that he had some real cajones.
Does anybody else feel Valerian was weak in characterization? His arc in SC2 was a lot like his arc in the Dark Templar Saga -- at first, he's a somewhat mysterious possible analogue of his father, while later the authors want to make very, very sure that Valerian is meant to be a good guy. This is especially awkward in the DT Saga, where a character kills her lover for betraying her to Valerian. And then Valerian turns out to be nice. Super messed up, right there.
In the games, Val's just some leadership substitute to prepare for Blizz wanting to kill Mengsk off. He's not interesting or plot-dramatic in any way. Quite frankly, they might as well have kept Papa Mengsk. Mengsk's story might have been "already told", but Valerian never had one to begin with.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
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Your vision of a world where there were no romantic feelings between Raynor and Kerrigan in StarCraft is a mystifying one.
Surely I'm misinterpreting this. Are you saying the romance arch was there from the beginning? I don't mean fondness, infatuation, or attraction, I mean, "I'll go to the ends of the universe because I still love you" kind of romance. You're saying that was there from the beginning?
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
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Originally Posted by
TheEconomist
Surely I'm misinterpreting this. Are you saying the romance arch was there from the beginning? I don't mean fondness, infatuation, or attraction, I mean, "I'll go to the ends of the universe because I still love you" kind of romance. You're saying that was there from the beginning?
It was hard to say, but at the very least before Fenix's death in BW, you can see Raynor was willing to go a VERY long distance to save Kerrigan.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
That's a good point. Makes me wonder what Raynor's reaction would be if Valerian saying that he could offer a chance to kill Kerrigan (instead of a chance to save her) in Heir Apparent. Would he have just shot him then and there? :D
Good question. I don't know if he'd shoot Valerian just for being Arcturus' son, honestly.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Then again, Raynor doesn't really gain much from an alliance with Valerian since Raynor pretty much ends up doing things all on his own anyway. Valerian's main purpose/value in the structure of the narrative is really just to give exposition about the artifact and to trigger the beginning of the end of WoL's plot. It doesn't really necessitate Raynor having to be buddy-buddy with Valerian to make their association an alliance of convenience more than anything else.
Well, Valerian provides our Battlecruisers, and it's implied that we take command of the Dominion forces on Char through Gates of Hell and Warfield leaving to get his new arm, so he provides mostly a justification for having enough forces to attack Char at all. He's kinda like General Duke from Rebel Yell in that.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I mean, it's kinda odd in WoL that Valerian knows Raynor so well that he can actually determine Raynor's wish of saving Kerrigan before he's even met the man or likely know of anything about him at all if Mengsk Snr had anything to do with it. Now, we don't know if it was somehow made public, but the last transmission that Raynor ever made regarding Kerrigan was his vehemence in killing her in True Colors. How does Valerian know otherwise? It'd be more plausible for him to think that Raynor wants to kill Kerrigan since he has record of him saying that. Afterall, an adjutant recording of Mengsk's rant in The Hammer Falls was available, why not that?
I assumed he heard it from his father, as that Dangerous Game quote I love bringing up demonstrates, Arcturus had a good grasp on what was motivating Raynor.
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
Again, it's not what she's doing, it's that she's the driving motivator, and the only real consequence of the WoL. Nothing else Raynor does matters.
And as I've told you, being the triggering event does not make you the focus of the story. Stories are about journeys. The choices, obstacles, development and relationships are all Raynor's.
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
All in my head? What, so he threatened to kill her because he loved her?
He threatened to kill her because she needed to be put down. That doesn't change his established character.
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
And no, that's not the story of WoL. WoL is a collection of mismatched storylines where a still somewhat optimistic "Raynor" attempts to do various things. His depression is mentioned, but rarely plot-affective. He isn't pulled back from despair and he's not obviously motivated by killing Kerrigan. WoL only uses his depression as occasional set-dressing.
He's driven himself into a hole from which he can only be roused to perform some occasional bit of minor mischief when seeing Mengsk angers him enough. It takes the Zerg invasion for him to get reminded of all the people who are in desperate need of help, yet also of how much he has personally lost. He tries to do what's right, only to be relentlessly pursued by the ghosts of his past, until Valerian shows up to offer him one last chance to set his demons to rest, a final, desperate hope that drives him to sacrifice anything.
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
Does anybody else feel Valerian was weak in characterization?
Yes. I had hoped for more.
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Originally Posted by
TheEconomist
Surely I'm misinterpreting this. Are you saying the romance arch was there from the beginning? I don't mean fondness, infatuation, or attraction, I mean, "I'll go to the ends of the universe because I still love you" kind of romance. You're saying that was there from the beginning?
No, just the feelings.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Good question. I don't know if he'd shoot Valerian just for being Arcturus' son, honestly.
I was kinda half-joking with that question. If Raynor did go on to shoot Valerian it'd destroy the redemption angle of the story and his base-line archetype of being the good guy that most people and Blizz expect. Then again, it (having shot at Valerian) would've helped sell the notion that Raynor has been driven insane by the guilt, depression and alcoholism he is supposedly suffering from in WoL. Course, since he shows competence and a general good-hearted nature in the previous missions prior to that point, they'd have to tweak the outcomes and the perspective of those considerably to make that insane notion stick. Then again, to me, Raynor's arc in WoL only makes sense if I think of him as being somewhat insane anyway...
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Well, Valerian provides our Battlecruisers, and it's implied that we take command of the Dominion forces on Char through Gates of Hell and Warfield leaving to get his new arm, so he provides mostly a justification for having enough forces to attack Char at all. He's kinda like General Duke from Rebel Yell in that.
Yeah, but this just goes hand-in-hand with Valerian just really being used as a plot device to trigger the the start of the ending of WoL's story. Whilst Duke does serve a similar purpose, it's a lot more disguised and perfunctory (in a good way) compared to how Valerian is utilised in the narrative.
Within the narrative itself, it becomes clear that Valerian and Warfield are more of a liability to Raynor than of any real benefit/assistance. The army of battlecruisers they bring to Char are almost all destroyed in orbit before the Gates of Hell mission even starts, so it's kinda difficult to ascertain the value they had in assisting Raynor. Also, when compared to Raynor's previous exploits where on Korhal he was able to conduct Media Blitz by landing on the most fortified Terran world, causing a ruckus and escaping scot-free on the most fortified Terran planet in existence and his full-on engagement with a superior alien force in Safe Haven against his own small force (if you chose that path), one has to consider why Raynor couldn't have just gone it alone on Char at the end and not get the same result. The Zerg were already spread out thin throughout the sector afterall and they probably wouldn't have noticed Raynor's small band compared to Valerian's fleet (which got noticed and smashed). Why is this situation any different?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
I assumed he heard it from his father, as that Dangerous Game quote I love bringing up demonstrates, Arcturus had a good grasp on what was motivating Raynor.
Be careful about reading too much into that Mengsk quote. We don't really know how Mengsk Snr actually knows that Raynor has a hidden Saviour complex/redemption fetish nor why Valerian would opt to believe anything Mengsk Snr has to say about Raynor. In Sc1, though he can manipulate people, he's not really that good at understanding other people since you yourself have commented that he quickly reverts to anger whenever things don't go his way (see how he gets snarky with Duke when he starts quibbling about not joining him or when Raynor rebukes him after New Gettysburg). And whilst Mengsk assuming Raynor has a Saviour Complex would hold from what we see in New Gettysburg, you have to realise that BW/True Colours (no matter how much you dislike it) did happen and that the most recent development on Raynor/Kerrigan front there up until WoL starts was that Raynor declared he would kill her if given the chance. Of course, this is assuming that Raynor's declaration was public but I think that's a safe assumption - Mengsk's forces being also present at the time (with Duke dying there) would have known about this surely.
And yes, whilst one can assume that like Raynor, everyone may have changed their minds and may developed new/different opinions in the 4 years between BW and WoL, we are not given any indication why and how that could be. Especially when it comes to Mengsk Snr, whom we see very little of in WoL.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Be careful about reading too much into that Mengsk quote. We don't really know how Mengsk Snr actually knows that Raynor has a hidden Saviour complex/redemption fetish nor why Valerian would opt to believe anything Mengsk Snr has to say about Raynor. In Sc1, though he can manipulate people, he's not really that good at understanding other people since you yourself have commented that he quickly reverts to anger whenever things don't go his way (see how he gets snarky with Duke when he starts quibbling about not joining him or when Raynor rebukes him after New Gettysburg). And whilst Mengsk assuming Raynor has a Saviour Complex would hold from what we see in New Gettysburg, you have to realise that BW/True Colours (no matter how much you dislike it) did happen and that the most recent development on Raynor/Kerrigan front there up until WoL starts was that Raynor declared he would kill her if given the chance. Of course, this is assuming that Raynor's declaration was public but I think that's a safe assumption - Mengsk's forces being also present at the time (with Duke dying there) would have known about this surely.
And yes, whilst one can assume that like Raynor, everyone may have changed their minds and may developed new/different opinions in the 4 years between BW and WoL, we are not given any indication why and how that could be. Especially when it comes to Mengsk Snr, whom we see very little of in WoL.
This is something I feel could have been Mengsk's god complex problem. Because of what happened in True Colors in BW, it's likely Mengsk was thinking that because Raynor had the savior complex, perhaps he could be persuaded to finally stop the rebellion against him and actually join him to deal with Kerrigan. She is, after all, the bigger threat. Remember, in the IMMEDIATE aftermath of the BW, no one could have known that she'd withdraw the swarm back to Char and wouldn't be heard from again for the new few years. In fact a lot of people had speculated she would use the swarm to finish the Protoss and Dominion off once the BW ended (this was back in like 2000, long before any work began for WoL).
For the part of people changing their minds and everything during the 4 years between BW and WoL, likely Mengsk felt the Zerg were not going to return, so he could focus on expanding the Dominion empire again. Raynor by this point had concluded he wasn't going to have much success against the swarm anyway, so he turned his attention back to bringing Mengsk to justice. This is exactly the reason why Mengsk began to use the Dominion propaganda machine to portray Raynor as "the worst traitor to humanity," and Raynor had no luck against that until finding the adjutant on Tarsonis. Likely the change in Mengsk's mentality is because he quickly concluded that it was pointless to talk to Raynor and convince him to give up the fight, the man just wasn't going to give in. And Mengsk's mentality was absolute: if you're not with him, you're against him.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Yeah, but this just goes hand-in-hand with Valerian just really being used as a plot device to trigger the the start of the ending of WoL's story. Whilst Duke does serve a similar purpose, it's a lot more disguised and perfunctory (in a good way) compared to how Valerian is utilised in the narrative.
Agreed. It's not necessarily a bad role to have - not everybody can be a main character - but I was hoping he'd come into his own in the sequels, but nothing really happens with him. He's somewhat similar to Daggoth like that, actually. Fun fact, Valerian is the point of view character for the Terran campaign in my own headcanon sequel to the original StarCraft. So you could say I would have wanted better from him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Within the narrative itself, it becomes clear that Valerian and Warfield are more of a liability to Raynor than of any real benefit/assistance. The army of battlecruisers they bring to Char are almost all destroyed in orbit before the Gates of Hell mission even starts, so it's kinda difficult to ascertain the value they had in assisting Raynor. Also, when compared to Raynor's previous exploits where on Korhal he was able to conduct Media Blitz by landing on the most fortified Terran world, causing a ruckus and escaping scot-free on the most fortified Terran planet in existence and his full-on engagement with a superior alien force in Safe Haven against his own small force (if you chose that path), one has to consider why Raynor couldn't have just gone it alone on Char at the end and not get the same result. The Zerg were already spread out thin throughout the sector afterall and they probably wouldn't have noticed Raynor's small band compared to Valerian's fleet (which got noticed and smashed). Why is this situation any different?
They probably could have played it as a more stealthy operation, with Raynor attacking under the distraction provided by the Dominion, I think that could have worked too. I don't actually have a problem with Valerian fucking up the invasion that bad though. He's young and inexperienced and thinks he knows a lot more than he actually does. I like that as a facet of his character.
Warfield should have known better though. He's not as bad as Duke, but then Duke just flew from failure to failure without giving a damn. It's like he was just a few years from retirement and had stopped giving a shit a long time ago. I'm oddly fascinated by the guy.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Be careful about reading too much into that Mengsk quote. We don't really know how Mengsk Snr actually knows that Raynor has a hidden Saviour complex/redemption fetish nor why Valerian would opt to believe anything Mengsk Snr has to say about Raynor. In Sc1, though he can manipulate people, he's not really that good at understanding other people since you yourself have commented that he quickly reverts to anger whenever things don't go his way (see how he gets snarky with Duke when he starts quibbling about not joining him or when Raynor rebukes him after New Gettysburg). And whilst Mengsk assuming Raynor has a Saviour Complex would hold from what we see in New Gettysburg, you have to realise that BW/True Colours (no matter how much you dislike it) did happen and that the most recent development on Raynor/Kerrigan front there up until WoL starts was that Raynor declared he would kill her if given the chance. Of course, this is assuming that Raynor's declaration was public but I think that's a safe assumption - Mengsk's forces being also present at the time (with Duke dying there) would have known about this surely.
And yes, whilst one can assume that like Raynor, everyone may have changed their minds and may developed new/different opinions in the 4 years between BW and WoL, we are not given any indication why and how that could be. Especially when it comes to Mengsk Snr, whom we see very little of in WoL.
I'm not certain what your perspective here is. True, it wouldn't be strange for Arcturus to read him badly, or for him to believe Raynor intends to kill Kerrigan. But he's also demonstrated that at other times he can accurately gauge people (like when he recruits the player character in Desperate Alliance) and he would also know of Raynor's track record with Kerrigan. So it's not like it's inconsistent for him to be straight on here, and having the villain cut straight to the deep emotional vulnerability of the hero is exactly the kind of move that one should want from a social-focused villain like Arcturus. Isn't this exactly what you want from Arcturus? I thought the disappointment people had was that he didn't have more scenes like this one?
EDIT: Incidentally, I don't dislike True Colors at all, I think it's one of the genuinely good points in the otherwise disappointing Brood War, alongside The Evacuation of Aiur and, if you're willing to accept the premise of the United Earth Directorate, Patriot's Blood.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
They probably could have played it as a more stealthy operation, with Raynor attacking under the distraction provided by the Dominion, I think that could have worked too. I don't actually have a problem with Valerian fucking up the invasion that bad though. He's young and inexperienced and thinks he knows a lot more than he actually does. I like that as a facet of his character.
Warfield should have known better though. He's not as bad as Duke, but then Duke just flew from failure to failure without giving a damn. It's like he was just a few years from retirement and had stopped giving a shit a long time ago. I'm oddly fascinated by the guy.
It would've worked, too, if Raynor went to Char alone and won since the previous examples I provided were a precedent for that to happen.
Keep in mind though that we are talking about the utility and value of Raynor allying with Valerian to joint attack Char on the basis that the reveal is the artifact can kill Zerg rather than reverse deinfestation. I think Raynor would still ally with Valerian for convenience sake but even if Raynor refused Valerian's help, he could still have conceivably gotten the job done by himself due to his unparalleled skills. He also has the artifact pieces and the prodigies, Stetman and Swann, to help him figure out the artifact given time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
I'm not certain what your perspective here is. True, it wouldn't be strange for Arcturus to read him badly, or for him to believe Raynor intends to kill Kerrigan. But he's also demonstrated that at other times he can accurately gauge people (like when he recruits the player character in Desperate Alliance) and he would also know of Raynor's track record with Kerrigan.
I don't know about him recruiting the magistrate in Desperate Alliances as a demonstration of him reading people but rather that Mengsk is quite shrewd in looking for and exploiting opportunities. Mengsk doesn't need to read the Magistrate at all in that situation because it's a no-brainer - come with me or get eaten by Zerg. He attempts to pull the same thing on Duke but he's a little more stubborn or dumb or even perhaps wise to Mengsk's manipulation of that scenario and Mengsk gets angry. In short, this demonstrates that Mengsk is good at reading situations, not people exactly. He could be good at that, too, but there isn't enough evidence for that in Sc1 or BW.
Also, if Mengsk knew Raynor so intimately in Sc1, he would have persuaded Raynor down to help Kerrigan on New Gettysburg and left them both down there to be consumed by the Zerg, not get mad at him afterward when Raynor tells him to go to hell since he should have expected that reaction from him if he was good at reading people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
So it's not like it's inconsistent for him to be straight on here, and having the villain cut straight to the deep emotional vulnerability of the hero is exactly the kind of move that one should want from a social-focused villain like Arcturus. Isn't this exactly what you want from Arcturus? I thought the disappointment people had was that he didn't have more scenes like this one?
It's not really a matter of inconsistency but rather a matter of continuity (or discontinuity as the case may be) as I tend to keep saying. How and why would Mengsk know Raynor always wanted to save Kerrigan when there has never been an indication that he thinks that way and especially when in BW, the last time Raynor and Mengsk are within the general vicinity of each other, it's when Raynor declares intent to kill Kerrigan?
It's a great moment that Mengsk is able to show that side in WoL, but it seems somewhat unearned. Especially so when one considers how poorly he reads Kerrigans intent and is so blindsided by her betrayal in BW - and this is someone he should've known even better than Raynor!
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
EDIT: Incidentally, I don't dislike True Colors at all, I think it's one of the genuinely good points in the otherwise disappointing Brood War, alongside The Evacuation of Aiur and, if you're willing to accept the premise of the United Earth Directorate, Patriot's Blood.
Oh sorry, I didn't mean to say you didn't like True Colours specifically, but just BW in general. Disliking something often makes you willingly "forget" things that did actually (and unfortunately) happen. It's happening to me right now with Sc2.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
It's not really a matter of inconsistency but rather a matter of continuity (or discontinuity as the case may be) as I tend to keep saying. How and why would Mengsk know Raynor always wanted to save Kerrigan when there has never been an indication that he thinks that way and especially when in BW, the last time Raynor and Mengsk are within the general vicinity of each other, it's when Raynor declares intent to kill Kerrigan?
It's a great moment that Mengsk is able to show that side in WoL, but it seems somewhat unearned. Especially so when one considers how poorly he reads Kerrigans intent and is so blindsided by her betrayal in BW - and this is someone he should've known even better than Raynor!
The only way this could make sense would be if Mengsk intercepted the transmissions Raynor made from "The Hammer Falls", when he blamed himself for what happened to her on Tarsonis. Yes in the 3rd BW Zerg mission briefing, he did blame Mengsk, but likely Mengsk would have put two and two together and would think perhaps Raynor would blame himself for not having the balls to stand up to him when he had the chance back then.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I don't know about him recruiting the magistrate in Desperate Alliances as a demonstration of him reading people but rather that Mengsk is quite shrewd in looking for and exploiting opportunities. Mengsk doesn't need to read the Magistrate at all in that situation because it's a no-brainer - come with me or get eaten by Zerg. He attempts to pull the same thing on Duke but he's a little more stubborn or dumb or even perhaps wise to Mengsk's manipulation of that scenario and Mengsk gets angry. In short, this demonstrates that Mengsk is good at reading situations, not people exactly. He could be good at that, too, but there isn't enough evidence for that in Sc1 or BW.
Maybe, but going for the whole 'it's a chance to save those people' really echoes Raynor's own argument from the previous mission - "I'll go down there now, and do what I can. You send in some militia and we'll save those folks. Trust me." Obviously the player character is mostly a blank slate, but the repeated theme seems deliberate. You'll note that he doesn't utilise the same approach for the Magistrate and for Duke either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Also, if Mengsk knew Raynor so intimately in Sc1, he would have persuaded Raynor down to help Kerrigan on New Gettysburg and left them both down there to be consumed by the Zerg, not get mad at him afterward when Raynor tells him to go to hell since he should have expected that reaction from him if he was good at reading people.
Eh, you're trying to reduce this to an overly simplistic "Mengsk is either right 100% of the time, or 0% of the time". Instead, view it as a learning experience that gives him more information on how Raynor ticks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
It's not really a matter of inconsistency but rather a matter of continuity (or discontinuity as the case may be) as I tend to keep saying. How and why would Mengsk know Raynor always wanted to save Kerrigan when there has never been an indication that he thinks that way and especially when in BW, the last time Raynor and Mengsk are within the general vicinity of each other, it's when Raynor declares intent to kill Kerrigan?
He doesn't need to believe that this was always Raynor's intention. The wound's still there even if Raynor had accepted that she couldn't be saved. Remember that the barb isn't about saving Kerrigan, it's about saving himself - if Raynor's accepted that Kerrigan cannot be saved, then he's reminding Raynor of what a failure he is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
It's a great moment that Mengsk is able to show that side in WoL, but it seems somewhat unearned. Especially so when one considers how poorly he reads Kerrigans intent and is so blindsided by her betrayal in BW - and this is someone he should've known even better than Raynor!
Now Mengsk's behaviour in Brood War is one of the things I tend to try to forget :p. I do believe that the writers should be allowed to move past those bad decisions, but even if you don't, there's no shortage of bad Arcturus moments in StarCraft II either, sadly.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
Listening to the developers talk about the epilogue on the behind the scenes DVD.
"We thought about how to end the trilogy and long and hard about the relationship with Sarah and Jim. There's this cool quaint little moment with Jim back at the bar and we're like 'wouldn't it be cool if...you know, maybe it's a dream, maybe it's not." <trails out>
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DarthYam
I can see her being angry at the world and lashing out (hell that's what she does in heart of the swarm). But going from an idealist with clear standards to torturing for the evulz is bad writing.
No it isn't.
The execution might have been bad (I don't think it is) but that's not bad writing to have a character betray their values and their ethics when something horrible happens to them.
Being betrayed by someone you TRUSTED and being genetically manipulated by an enormous hive mind would mess up your head regardless of any physical changes. Hell, I'm not even sure that the Confederacy DIDN'T mess her up. She murders Lieutenant Rumm in Uprising pretty brutally. It could all be there, bubbling under the surface, with only her own guilt, Raynor's friendship and Mengsk's guidance keeping it at bay. Let's not forget that Kerrigan is a TRAINED military assassin working for an insurgent rebel group. She is a nice woman to speak to, but she's still a killer.
Now that's not really apparent from StarCraft's narrative (just Uprising's).
But even so, there are plenty of well established good books and stories that involve a character turning on everything they believed in. Some of the best.
Going back, again, to Shakespeare. We have MacBeth. He spends the first act of the book thinking about how abhorrent the idea of murdering the king is. And then he does it because his wife basically clucks like a chicken and questions his manhood.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Listening to the developers talk about the epilogue on the behind the scenes DVD.
"We thought about how to end the trilogy and long and hard about the relationship with Sarah and Jim. There's this cool quaint little moment with Jim back at the bar and we're like 'wouldn't it be cool if...you know, maybe it's a dream, maybe it's not." <trails out>
Which is BS. However you're going to wrap things up, at least make it concrete, not this vague interpretation which will leave the door open for them to return someday.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
Quote:
However you're going to wrap things up, at least make it concrete, not this vague interpretation which will leave the door open for them to return someday.
"You know nothing of the Blizzard writers!"
-Narud
Vague interpretations is their MO.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Visions of Khas
"You know nothing of the Blizzard writers!"
-Narud
Vague interpretations is their MO.
Which is not acceptable to the community. You can't keep things vague forever and then when the next game comes out, pull out another pile of retcons specifically via that excuse.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
No, it isn't acceptable. But I do think it's laudable they hired a new lead writer for LotV, which is well ahead of the previous two installments in quality.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Visions of Khas
No, it isn't acceptable. But I do think it's laudable they hired a new lead writer for LotV, which is well ahead of the previous two installments in quality.
Now they just have to do it for the epilogue, and rewrite at least half of it.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Maybe, but going for the whole 'it's a chance to save those people' really echoes Raynor's own argument from the previous mission - "I'll go down there now, and do what I can. You send in some militia and we'll save those folks. Trust me." Obviously the player character is mostly a blank slate, but the repeated theme seems deliberate. You'll note that he doesn't utilise the same approach for the Magistrate and for Duke either.
That's an interesting perspective to take but I'm still more inclined to think Mengsks speech to the Magistrate is still more of him exploiting the situation than it is about Mengsk reading the guy (and by extension being a good reader of other people in general). The large reason being is that there is no interaction between Mengsk and the Magistrate. And no, it's not just because it's impossible due the Magistrate being the player character and the game not being an RPG. It's essentially because Mengsk comes out nowhere, makes a declarative speech and then expects whoever listens to accept his reasoning. There's no "reading of the magistrate" to be had. What Mengsk has done instead is read the situation before making that speech to the magistrate: He knows that a magistrate is responsible for people and has some sway/authority over them, that the Confederates have abandoned them and then subsequently left for dead to the Zerg. This is an ample opportunity for him to swoop in.
Whilst you say that this approach is different when it comes to Duke, it is and it isn't. If want to look at him reading the person (which is harder to gain evidence to suggest so), then sure, you can see it as different approach but I somewhat beg to differ. Duke's situation is actually very similar to the Magistrate's in Desperate Alliance as I described above. You'll also see that Mengsk's first approach to Duke is similar to the one he gives the magistrate in that he's trying to impart "reason" on a guy that he assumes will listen to it. He gets rebuffed and then starts getting annoyed and then tries to force an ultimatum and then finally gets him to come around by making a deal/exchange with him. Sure, you could say the fact that he got him onboard eventually was due to Mengsk being able to read Duke eventually, but that Mengsk had to negotiate does not necessarily mean he's good at reading people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Eh, you're trying to reduce this to an overly simplistic "Mengsk is either right 100% of the time, or 0% of the time". Instead, view it as a learning experience that gives him more information on how Raynor ticks.
Not really. I'm not an expert reader of people but I can clearly say that Raynor is not a very difficult man to read. He showed more vehemence to Mengsk's proposed actions than Kerrigan did and yet Kerrigan is the one consigned to a suicide mission on the possible implication that she has or will become a liability (I'm ignoring the true reason from the EU here mind you) and Raynor is not? This does not speak of a person who's really that good at reading people and making choices/acting off that ability. Seems more to me that he's reading people wrongly but instead perhaps reading the situation in a utilitarian way (which would seem correct to Mengsk) instead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
He doesn't need to believe that this was always Raynor's intention. The wound's still there even if Raynor had accepted that she couldn't be saved. Remember that the barb isn't about saving Kerrigan, it's about saving himself - if Raynor's accepted that Kerrigan cannot be saved, then he's reminding Raynor of what a failure he is.
This all sounds good but a part of me still feels where ascribing too much regard for Mengsk and his supposed ability to cut people with his intimate knowledge of people on just this one quote. Recent history does not indicate he's that good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Now Mengsk's behaviour in Brood War is one of the things I tend to try to forget :p. I do believe that the writers should be allowed to move past those bad decisions, but even if you don't, there's no shortage of bad Arcturus moments in StarCraft II either, sadly.
You're not the only one who wants to forget Mengsk's behaviour in BW but unfortunately, this is what we have and it suggests he's not good at reading people at all. Continuity can be the devil in this circumstance.
As to Mengsk in Sc2, his depiction as a whole is such a caricature that not even that one line in WoL you like can save him. I'm of the opinion that's why he "had" to eventually die in the narrative because it was the one development that people could still possibly care about for the character, if at all. I feel the same way about why Zeratul had to die in LotV as well.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
That's an interesting perspective to take but I'm still more inclined to think Mengsks speech to the Magistrate is still more of him exploiting the situation than it is about Mengsk reading the guy (and by extension being a good reader of other people in general). The large reason being is that there is no interaction between Mengsk and the Magistrate. And no, it's not just because it's impossible due the Magistrate being the player character and the game not being an RPG. It's essentially because Mengsk comes out nowhere, makes a declarative speech and then expects whoever listens to accept his reasoning. There's no "reading of the magistrate" to be had. What Mengsk has done instead is read the situation before making that speech to the magistrate: He knows that a magistrate is responsible for people and has some sway/authority over them, that the Confederates have abandoned them and then subsequently left for dead to the Zerg. This is an ample opportunity for him to swoop in.
Whilst you say that this approach is different when it comes to Duke, it is and it isn't. If want to look at him reading the person (which is harder to gain evidence to suggest so), then sure, you can see it as different approach but I somewhat beg to differ. Duke's situation is actually very similar to the Magistrate's in Desperate Alliance as I described above. You'll also see that Mengsk's first approach to Duke is similar to the one he gives the magistrate in that he's trying to impart "reason" on a guy that he assumes will listen to it. He gets rebuffed and then starts getting annoyed and then tries to force an ultimatum and then finally gets him to come around by making a deal/exchange with him. Sure, you could say the fact that he got him onboard eventually was due to Mengsk being able to read Duke eventually, but that Mengsk had to negotiate does not necessarily mean he's good at reading people.
While he tries to be reasonable to both, with the Magistrate he's appealing to duty and responsibility, and with Duke it's a lot more pragmatic, about the failure of the Confederacy and joining the winning side. And the failure isn't so much in going for pragmatism, it's that Duke isn't especially interested in the fate of the Confederacy and wants to know what's in it for him, specifically.
As to the Magistrate, there may be no direct interaction, but Mengsk has clearly looked him up. One of the first things he says is that he expects that Magistrate to react a certain way due to his reputation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Not really. I'm not an expert reader of people but I can clearly say that Raynor is not a very difficult man to read. He showed more vehemence to Mengsk's proposed actions than Kerrigan did and yet Kerrigan is the one consigned to a suicide mission on the possible implication that she has or will become a liability (I'm ignoring the true reason from the EU here mind you) and Raynor is not? This does not speak of a person who's really that good at reading people and making choices/acting off that ability. Seems more to me that he's reading people wrongly but instead perhaps reading the situation in a utilitarian way (which would seem correct to Mengsk) instead.
I don't know about that. Did Mengsk actually believe Raynor would be fine with New Gettysburg? His speech afterward has always sounded incredibly fake to me, and I always assumed he didn't expect it to work and was putting no effort into it, but still had to throw it out just in case. Maybe that's just my perspective though. Either way, I've always wondered why he didn't send Raynor out to die with Kerrigan. It seems unfathomable that he wouldn't know about his objections. Maybe he feared that Raynor would actually refuse the order. Or maybe he feared that Raynor would have a plan to escape with some of his own loyal people, and that they'd both escape if Raynor was down there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
This all sounds good but a part of me still feels where ascribing too much regard for Mengsk and his supposed ability to cut people with his intimate knowledge of people on just this one quote. Recent history does not indicate he's that good.
Well, I consider his incompetence in Brood War to be a failure at writing the character, but if you want to believe that the character is truly inept and this competent display is the failed writing, then that's your right, but just as I have to accept that Brood War actually happened, you also have to accept that this actually happened too :p.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aldrius
No it isn't.
The execution might have been bad (I don't think it is) but that's not bad writing to have a character betray their values and their ethics when something horrible happens to them.
Being betrayed by someone you TRUSTED and being genetically manipulated by an enormous hive mind would mess up your head regardless of any physical changes. Hell, I'm not even sure that the Confederacy DIDN'T mess her up. She murders Lieutenant Rumm in Uprising pretty brutally. It could all be there, bubbling under the surface, with only her own guilt, Raynor's friendship and Mengsk's guidance keeping it at bay. Let's not forget that Kerrigan is a TRAINED military assassin working for an insurgent rebel group. She is a nice woman to speak to, but she's still a killer.
Now that's not really apparent from StarCraft's narrative (just Uprising's).
But even so, there are plenty of well established good books and stories that involve a character turning on everything they believed in. Some of the best.
Going back, again, to Shakespeare. We have MacBeth. He spends the first act of the book thinking about how abhorrent the idea of murdering the king is. And then he does it because his wife basically clucks like a chicken and questions his manhood.
Except Kerrigan in BW was snidely whiplash. In SC1 she was complex (she had a dark side but at the same time had a clear sense of morality. She even hated using the zerg on the people who tortured her.) In Brood War it's a complete 180 to evil for the sake of being evil. Also, there was the fact that the overmind ordered Kerrigan to slaughter every single one of the terrans after she emerged....and she DISOBEYED HIM!!!!!! That's not a small matter.
Anyway, I was not impressed by Kerrigan's transition to BW. Her arc in Heart of the Swarm (conflicted about what to do, than obsessed with revenge to the point she'll do whatever it takes to finally doing a heel turn after a heel realization) was more believable. I really think that people are looking at Brood War with rose colored glasses and refusing to admit that in some ways Brood War was WORSE.
Yes I said it. Brood War's story was shit.
Also, Nissa cowardly dodged some of the points FanaticTemplar made about Tassadar
Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
1. Tassadar was repentant. Kerri was not.
Kerrigan was plenty repentant after she got deinfested. Tassadar was "repentant" in the sense that he literally says "Whatever leniency I extended to you and your comrades before, may have been in error.". He believes he was not harsh enough with the Terrans.
Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
2. Tassadar was chaotic in his pursuit of good. Kerri was violent in her pursuit of personal goals.
"Planetary genocide because I was told to" is less "chaotic" and more "Neuremberg defense".
Of course, if you want to go the route where this was necessary to prevent the Zerg apocalypse, it also bears mentioning that his decision to abandon that method directly lead to the creation of the Queen of Blades.
Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
3. Tassadar restrained himself despite his orders. Kerri relished in punishing her enemies.
Kerrigan spared Raynor and his men, despite the Overmind's orders.
Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
4. Tassadar showed himself eager to change when confronted with new ideas. Kerri wants what she wants, damn the consequences.
Kerrigan actually changed.
Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
5. Tassadar and Jim were buds, and not people forced into an artificial relationship.
"Hey, are you the guy who wiped out my planet? Let's develop a natural relationship based on that! Not like this artificial notion of "falling for a coworker", who ever heard of anything stupid like that?"
Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
That, and forgiving a person is entirely different from falling in love with them. I could buy that Raynor might forgive her if it were under credible circumstances. I will never accept that Raynor would then choose to love her, or so much as trust her, ever again.
Wait, wait, you forgot one!
6. Tassadar was acting of his own free will, Kerrigan WAS POSSESSED BY EVIL ALIENS.
In some ways Raynor's friendship with Tassadar made less sense. Kerrigan also showed good traits and in a way Tassadar was also an asshole. He used the "following orders" card. If he and Raynor start out hostile and evolve to friends it makes sense.
That's another thing. Heart Kerrigan EVOLVES as a character. She starts out conflicted, than she's more amoral, than she finally is willing to do the right thing even though she has no incentive (the "but she was just doing it for Raynor" is tosh. Kerrigan was genuinely surprised when he intervened so it's all but stated that she assumed any chance at reconciliation was gone.) In short, Kerrigan actually evolves over the course of the story. In Brood War she's evil from go.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DarthYam
Except Kerrigan in BW was snidely whiplash. In SC1 she was complex (she had a dark side but at the same time had a clear sense of morality. She even hated using the zerg on the people who tortured her.) In Brood War it's a complete 180 to evil for the sake of being evil.
Better than HoTS where it's evil masquerading as good or "misunderstood anti-hero". There are still people who defend Kerrigan's actions to destroy entire planets to get revenge on one guy, because that's what Blizzard was pushing.
Quote:
She even hated using the zerg on the people who tortured her.
Quite ironic then that she goes on to unleash the zerg on multiple worlds in HoTS for a guy that didn't treat her half as bad as those people. That's one way to get a character completely wrong.
Quote:
Also, there was the fact that the overmind ordered Kerrigan to slaughter every single one of the terrans after she emerged....and she DISOBEYED HIM!!!!!! That's not a small matter.
Explained in the game. The greatness of her spirit has been left to her.
That's what makes it interesting. We wonder how much of the original Sarah is still in there, and that question is finally answered in BW when Raynor vows to kill her. At this point, the insipid love story that people pretend exists should have had its final nail in the coffin if it didn't already happen after she turned into a disgusting bug creature.
Quote:
Anyway, I was not impressed by Kerrigan's transition to BW. Her arc in Heart of the Swarm (conflicted about what to do, than obsessed with revenge to the point she'll do whatever it takes to finally doing a heel turn after a heel realization) was more believable.
Explain how she's conflicted beyond "feels bad about it once in a while". Plans to get revenge on Mengsk before he attacks Umoja. Ends up getting revenge on Mengsk and everything else she ever wanted because her and Raynor are Metzen's favorite characters. Wow, cool story bro. Very deep development.
Quote:
I really think that people are looking at Brood War with rose colored glasses and refusing to admit that in some ways Brood War was WORSE.
Yes I said it. Brood War's story was shit.
Take off your fanboy goggles. It can't be nostalgia because I replayed BW a few months ago. And what do you know, it's still decent, and SC2 is still shit in comparison. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DarthYam
That's another thing. Heart Kerrigan EVOLVES as a character. She starts out conflicted, than she's more amoral, than she finally is willing to do the right thing even though she has no incentive (the "but she was just doing it for Raynor" is tosh. Kerrigan was genuinely surprised when he intervened so it's all but stated that she assumed any chance at reconciliation was gone.) In short, Kerrigan actually evolves over the course of the story. In Brood War she's evil from go.
Actually to say that she did it for anyone else is really hard to say. Sure she evolved over the course of the story, but she did so in the beliefs she belonged more and more into the swarm, even after finding out Raynor was still alive. The problem with HotS was that she could have had redemption at the beginning if she reached for it, she chose not to. She instead chose to go for Mengsk regardless of the cost, and only after the Moros did she finally begin to see she had gone too far in all this. If Raynor HAD died, it would have been hard for anyone to convince her not to kill everyone in the Dominion just to get to Mengsk.
Raynor's reception to her on the Moros was the only reason why she endorsed Valerian to take over the Dominion once the Korhal invasion ends as she realized unless she put a limit to all this, she'll have learned nothing, and Raynor's efforts all these years would have been a complete waste. Ultimately almost all her mercies shown were simply for the sake to vindicate his actions all these years.
- - - Updated - - -
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Quite ironic then that she goes on to unleash the zerg on multiple worlds in HoTS for a guy that didn't treat her half as bad as those people. That's one way to get a character completely wrong.
Is it really that hard for you to see that she felt the Dominion was no different than Mengsk?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Explain how she's conflicted beyond "feels bad about it once in a while". Plans to get revenge on Mengsk before he attacks Umoja. Ends up getting revenge on Mengsk and everything else she ever wanted because her and Raynor are Metzen's favorite characters. Wow, cool story bro. Very deep development.
The revenge part was necessary, it's just that she wasn't sure how to carry it out back then, not at the beginning of the game anyways. I keep telling you, anger can cause people to think VERY irrationally
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Quite ironic then that she goes on to unleash the zerg on multiple worlds in HoTS for a guy that didn't treat her half as bad as those people. That's one way to get a character completely wrong.
Hmm?
I try to avoid replaying Heart of the Swarm because I can't stand the hero focused gameplay, but I thought she only attacked Dominion military targets?
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Hmm?
I try to avoid replaying Heart of the Swarm because I can't stand the hero focused gameplay, but I thought she only attacked Dominion military targets?
Little bit more than that: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10160956386
Even so, if you're trying to kill one guy, Kerrigan's goal should have been assassination, not planetary warfare.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DarthYam
Also, Nissa cowardly dodged some of the points FanaticTemplar made about Tassadar
No, I disregarded them because FanaticTemplar wasn't getting my point, and I lost the will to debate him. That, and textwalls are overwhelming. This is an extremely presumptuous thing of you to say, and even if it were true, it's not your problem. Talk Starcraft but don't drag me into your apparent need to mock strangers on the internet.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
EDIT: Okay, so for this I had to read your Battle.net posts, then replay parts of Heart of the Swarm, which I hate, then I had to fish out a something like two hour video of all the cutscenes in the game trying to catch one of the parts where Kerrigan orders her Brood Mothers on their errands, and all that for some pretty weak arguments, so I kind of ran out of patience over the course of this post. I apologise for getting sarcastic and acerbic, especially by the end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Yeah, so I actually went back to play some missions in Heart of the Swarm to verify your claims, and yeah, I'm smelling a lot of bullshit there.
Quote:
Takes place on a Dominion security world, Calus. As is the basic theme of the evolution missions, the swarm was already invading this world, and they had discovered essence on it after-the-fact. The world itself has absolutely nothing to do with Mengsk or Kerrigan's war against him, and culminates in the slaugther of random innocent people. Virtually the same thing happens on the splitter strain planet.
So what I see while playing the game is that Kerrigan's attacking a Dominion outpost and that those innocents are Marines, Siege Tanks, Bunkers, Vikings and Thors.
It's much the same for the other missions too, except where they involve the Protoss (I have no idea why Kerrigan's fighting the Protoss). In the Baneling mission you destroy a Dominion mining facility, in the Hydralisk mission, one of your Hive clusters is under attack by the Dominion's elite infestation specialist division of innocents. And at this point, I think I've seen enough. I don't like Heart of the Swarm enough to confirm that this is going to be the same story for everything else in that post, but I can guess.
This is the source of your outrage? This is in contrast to what, exactly? I've already brought up Tassadar and his repeated planetary genocides. How about that time Raynor and Fenix unleashed the Swarm on a neutral faction to steal their stuff and transform their miners into zombified living bombs? Remember when Artanis and Zeratul attacked a Dominion world because the Protoss forgot a crystal there ages ago and now they want it back? And in light of how well Infested Kerrigan slaughtered those Terrans, Zeratul figures that maybe he judged her too harshly?
Quote:
Throughout the campaign Kerrigan gives multiple orders to brood mothers to destroy planets. We watch in one instance as the lights all over one planet are engulfed in creep, and again, we have no reason to believe that the brood mothers stopped to make their task harder in order to save civilians.
I've tried to hunt down those scenes and the one I've found was all about attacking Dominion military assets. In this case, the shipyards of Jontur II. The visuals of planets being engulfed in creep are symbolic, unless you actually believe that the entire planet was infested by a single Brood Mother before she even had the time to say "It shall be done, my Queen". You have no reason to believe the civilians were spared? You also have no reason to believe they weren't. I don't even have a reason to believe there were any there in the first place - from the example of Valhalla we know that the Dominion had military facilities on completely uninhabited worlds.
Quote:
Furthermore, even on worlds dedicated to 100% military production, there are still going to be civilians working the factories.
She destroys buildings. Truly, this series has never seen such a monster.
Hey, remember in The Jacobs Installation when Raynor attacks a military installation that actually has these units clearly labeled "Civilian" that are super murderable?
'Cause I'm sure none of those guys were murdered on this completely opportunistic raid.
Quote:
Kerrigan spared the civilians on these planets like she did on Korhal.
Unfortunately all the evidence seems to contradict this hypothesis. Kerrigan had to be convinced to spare civlians on Korhal by Valerian twice. First, when she discusses the invasion with him and he asks her to land outside Augustgrad. Second, when Kerrigan argues that sparing civilians would cause Mengsk to "spot the pattern" in her movements. Who honestly believes that Kerrigan bothered sparing civlians on other planets if she has to be convinced to do it here? Twice. It's almost as if she only agrees to spare civilians because Raynor is watching in the background.
Her brood mothers are still evil and sadistic. Zagara enjoys the feel of snapping protoss bones in her claws, as well as killing everyone that's not zerg. When Kerrigan orders planets destroyed, does anybody honestly believe that these same brood mothers would have went out of their way to spare civilians? Kerrigan NEVER says "spare the civilians". She only says "kill all in your path" or "leave no survivors". All I ask for is one shred of evidence that Kerrigan bothered sparing civilians before Korhal.
Done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Even so, if you're trying to kill one guy, Kerrigan's goal should have been assassination, not planetary warfare.
Because that game didn't have enough baseless missions.
It's almost like the entire RTS genre is built on large scale warfare on the flimsiest of pretexts.
OVERMIND: I invaded Terran space and laid waste to countless worlds so I could get my hands on this prize, the only thing that can ensure my victory over the Protoss... better leave it behind and invade the Protoss without it anyway.
DUKE: Hey, we're stuck on this planet getting our arses handed to us by the Zerg. Better start a fight with the Protoss too!
TASSADAR: I too am stuck on this planet having my arse handed to me by the Zerg. I support your proposal entirely!
TASSADAR: I can't bear to see my brethren murdering one another, so I surrender. Good luck to all my supporters in their continued slaughter of my brethren, don't give up the fight!
FENIX: I guess we should attack the Conclave to liberate Tassadar.
ZERATUL: We're going on this planet to obtain a crystal. Our goal is planetary warfare, not theft.
ARTANIS: The United Earth Directorate has set up a planetary blockade against us!
ZERATUL: Can't we teleport?
ARTANIS: No, we have to fight them.
ARTANIS: I have a bold plan to deal a lot of superficial damage to the Overmind!
ZERATUL: Are we going to bombard it from orbit?
ARTANIS: No, we're going to get into melee range and hit it with our laserswords. Except the Dark Templar. Dark Templar are not allowed to hit it with their laserswords.
ALDARIS: I have discovered that your leader is mindslaved to Kerrigan! Not that I intend to tell you this in any of my multiple speeches, that might cause us to debate and consider the issue instead of having a futile and harmful civil war.
DUGALLE: Our objective here is to eliminate Arcturus Mengsk. He is our priority threat in this expedition to neutralise the aliens. For some reason.
MENGSK: Suckers, I escaped!
DUGALLE: Damn, okay, now our objective is to eliminate Arcturus Mengsk.
MENGSK: Nope! Still escaping!
DUGALLE: Well, we had to have the exact same failure twice in a row, otherwise what kind of story would it be?
STUKOV: Duran, are you betraying us?
DURAN: La la la la la! I can't hear you!
STUKOV: Yep, he's betraying us. Captain, inform DuGalle of this, I've got other things to do.
CAPTAIN: ...
DURAN: Hey Admiral, Stukov's a traitor.
DUGALLE: Really?
CAPTAIN: ...
DUGALLE: Well, guess we need to kill him then.
KERRIGAN: Okay guys, we need to invade Moria to get some resources.
RAYNOR: Can't we get these resources literally anywhere?
KERRIGAN: Invade the damned planet.
FENIX: Oh, oh, pick me!
I swear, you'd think the entire story was just cooked up to justify going from one RTS map to the next.
EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nissa
No, I disregarded them because FanaticTemplar wasn't getting my point
I bet.
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Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts
Lol. Um, to be fair, Kerrigan's role for the Overmind was primarily a genetic one. They didn't specifically need her, they needed to assimilate psychics to add their genetic material to the swarm. So, technically they had what they needed when Kerri was fully infested.
Or leaving her behind was part of this plan, but got interrupted. I dunno.
