[Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

I'm not exactly sure what would have been the best ending for Kerrigan.

A "happily ever after" just doesn't feel right but I don't think her getting killed or locked up is the right way to go either.

After having some time to think about it. The idea of Jim sparing Kerrigan's life after she gets de-infested isn't a bad one but blizzard didn't execute it properly. We should have been reminded of Raynor's vow to kill her at least twice (flashbacks or something) in the WoL campaign, and "killing the Queen of Blades" should have been the official plan among all the characters right up until the point Raynor spares her. I think that would have been a good way to end the Raynor's vow story arc.

However what happens after? Was the QoB just some twisted wile of the Overmind? Or was it really Kerrigan? If she was actually the QoB, then going through the re-infestation story arc kinda makes sense for her character as what else would the QoB do? However, the whole "going to Zerus" to become a "purer form of the QoB" was just stupid on so many levels. Though admittedly I don't know what else would have been an appropriate way for her to get re-infested. Maybe go visit the carcass of the Overmind? I also think it would have been more interesting to see a highly intelligent, newly created, first of it's kind, zerg creature rise to power rather than a human.

If The QoB was just a servant of the Overmind... Well that makes things a little more difficult. A "happily ever after" doesn't make sense; too many people would want her dead even if you don't include Mengsk and his subordinates. There's no way she'd survive as a human. Perhaps, her getting killed at this point by order of Mengsk pushes Raynor over the edge; Making a Mengsk 2.0 if you will. But I don't know if I like the idea of Raynor becoming the bad guy. His character is one of the common man trying to do the right thing. It just doesn't fit. Perhaps Kerrigan re-infesting herself was really the only option unless kerrigan was never de-infested in the first place. But I can't really think of any good ways for the Raynor "kill kerrigan" arc to be satisfied in that scenario.

It's a tough call.

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Originally Posted by DarthYam

That kinda cheapens the whole plot and isn't really a redemption. Redemption stories have to have the character do something meaningful. In the Graphic novel version of kickass Red Mist saves Hitgirl from assassins, but gets a fatal bullet wound in the stomach. He dies from it and Hit Girl makes it very clear that it isn't enough to make amends. However, even if it doesn't fully absolve him of his other crimes it's enough that it kinda qualifies (saving a former foe at the cost of his own life in a desire to make things right.)

Honestly, Kaiser and Economist are being wankers.

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oh Fuck off, dude.

I am a wanker for not accepting a terrible epilogue where an asshole get's everything she desired (and more) with no negative consequences and doesn't have to even as much as apologize for her crimes?

Kerrigan in SC2 sucks and so does her entire fan-service-y arc.

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Originally Posted by DarthYam

BOOOORRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!! !!!! Having her only ever be a pawn and tragic gets boring. Having her lay the past to rest and become a hero would be a good way of ending her story. Even if she sacrifices her life to save the universe it's better. Heck LOV wrapped her story up. All in all I see a happy ending or at least bittersweet ending. All I can say is that if you think being a test subject the rest of her life is a good ending than WTF is wrong with you. That's just depressing and not in a good way. That's warhammer depressing and it's the kind of grim that only an emo teenager would like

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Nope, no good ending is deserved for this character, I would've been pleased if one of those Void spires fell on her and killed her in the most anti-climatic fashion possible.

it would prove that Blizzard didn't actually make a mary sue creator's pet.

oh well, gotta have your mass murdering psychos get everything they want and not be criticized by anyone (except the villain) because that's GOOD and FUN writing.

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Originally Posted by KaiseStratosTygo

oh Fuck off, dude.

I am a wanker for not accepting a terrible epilogue where an asshole get's everything she desired (and more) with no negative consequences and doesn't have to even as much as apologize for her crimes?

Kerrigan in SC2 sucks and so does her entire fan-service-y arc.



Nope, no good ending is deserved for this character, I would've been pleased if one of those Void spires fell on her and killed her in the most anti-climatic fashion possible.

it would prove that Blizzard didn't actually make a mary sue creator's pet.

oh well, gotta have your mass murdering psychos get everything they want and not be criticized by anyone (except the villain) because that's GOOD and FUN writing.

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Given that when Kerrigan is selfish things blow up in her face (the reason Jim saved her in HOTS is because she chose the morally correct option over the expedient one) and that when she's selfless things work for her. Also, I'm pretty sure restoring life to dead worlds and taking on the Xel'naga message of giving life is an apology (she now wants to create life to make up). Kerrigan agreed to merge in order to save the other races and make amends (since Amon's death secured the future for everyone.)

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Originally Posted by Nissa

????

What's with the emotion? May I reply that I find that "redemptive" ending to be completely "boooooorrrrrriiinnnnnngggg"?

Uh, a writing idea generally isn't depressing in a good or bad way until it is executed. Besides, I'm not saying Kerrigan should be a pawn, I'm saying she always has been a pawn. Seriously, that's all she is in SC, and in BW she's incapable of acting outside of her emotional needs, namely, for power and revenge. If you think that's boring, well then, you must think SC/BW are boring.

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I'm saying that her as a pawn could get boring after a while. If things are only miserable and depressing, either for a character or a setting why should anyone care? Being a pawn worked in SC1 but if that's all Kerrigan is EVER than it gets boring. Condemning any character to being a lab rat strikes me as kind of atrocious.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

I would only be okay with a Kerrigan redemption plot if she died in the end. Not like noble sacrifice, or anything like that, just dies. Or she sort of regrets some of her actions, but is incapable of taking action that would help her escape the swarm.

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The whole regretting part is meaningless if her actions don't show for it. This was the main problem in HotS due to her focus on revenge.

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Originally Posted by DarthYam

That kinda cheapens the whole plot and isn't really a redemption. Redemption stories have to have the character do something meaningful. In the Graphic novel version of kickass Red Mist saves Hitgirl from assassins, but gets a fatal bullet wound in the stomach. He dies from it and Hit Girl makes it very clear that it isn't enough to make amends. However, even if it doesn't fully absolve him of his other crimes it's enough that it kinda qualifies (saving a former foe at the cost of his own life in a desire to make things right.)

Honestly, Kaiser and Economist are being wankers.

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Something you'd have to deal with ALL THE TIME on the battlenet forums, it really tests your nerves.

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Originally Posted by KaiseStratosTygo

oh Fuck off, dude.

I am a wanker for not accepting a terrible epilogue where an asshole get's everything she desired (and more) with no negative consequences and doesn't have to even as much as apologize for her crimes?

Kerrigan in SC2 sucks and so does her entire fan-service-y arc.



Nope, no good ending is deserved for this character, I would've been pleased if one of those Void spires fell on her and killed her in the most anti-climatic fashion possible.

it would prove that Blizzard didn't actually make a mary sue creator's pet.

oh well, gotta have your mass murdering psychos get everything they want and not be criticized by anyone (except the villain) because that's GOOD and FUN writing.

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Stratos, this is EXACTLY why people could have a hard time seeing you're a good person in real life. Yes we know online it doesn't reflect your real self (this applies to everyone), but the way you're acting....

Look I don't have anything against you, but you have to start seeing that just because you disliked the story does NOT automatically mean those that did are "people who deserve to be locked in the insane asylum."

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Originally Posted by DarthYam

Given that when Kerrigan is selfish things blow up in her face (the reason Jim saved her in HOTS is because she chose the morally correct option over the expedient one) and that when she's selfless things work for her. Also, I'm pretty sure restoring life to dead worlds and taking on the Xel'naga message of giving life is an apology (she now wants to create life to make up). Kerrigan agreed to merge in order to save the other races and make amends (since Amon's death secured the future for everyone.)

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Ultimately however she merely did this for Raynor's sake. The same was true at the end of HotS.

The main problem here is it's not CONFIRMED she's seeding those worlds.

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Originally Posted by DarthYam

I'm saying that her as a pawn could get boring after a while. If things are only miserable and depressing, either for a character or a setting why should anyone care? Being a pawn worked in SC1 but if that's all Kerrigan is EVER than it gets boring. Condemning any character to being a lab rat strikes me as kind of atrocious.

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And this is why I never blamed her for her actions in HotS. Your first decisions in life are always bound to turn out as crap because you have no experience yet

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Originally Posted by RODTHEGOD

A "happily ever after" just doesn't feel right but I don't think her getting killed or locked up is the right way to go either.

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Too right! Being absolved scot-free and taking no responsibility is too easy an out for her, as is just having her straight-up killed as punishment for her sins. Given that her crimes are to do with her selfishly getting things her way, her redemption and reward for it should not involve the same thing of selfishly getting something that ultimately improves her lot. The reward should be the act of doing something good and not expecting/getting anything in return. Anything more than that threatens to make them too perfect and idealised. I guess that's why the epilogue is often criticised because it makes Kerrigan into a Mary Sue/turns the whole affair into what looks like fanfic.

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Stratos, this is EXACTLY why people could have a hard time seeing you're a good person in real life

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What do people say about you, Ragnarok? Oh my ...

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Originally Posted by DarthYam

I'm saying that her as a pawn could get boring after a while. If things are only miserable and depressing, either for a character or a setting why should anyone care? Being a pawn worked in SC1 but if that's all Kerrigan is EVER than it gets boring. Condemning any character to being a lab rat strikes me as kind of atrocious.

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Ah, I see. You're not looking at it like a writer. It would seem you like Kerrigan so much you want her to have a good ending, despite all. Thing is, Starcraft was at its best when it had consequences. When doing wrong meant a character would get it in the end. Basically every character has a tragic struggle, even Mengsk. When you make Kerri have a pretty princess ending, it cheapens the whole thing. Kerrigan's fate needed some level of punishment or hardship to make it acceptable, which is why so many people are pissed off by the epilogue -- she never got what she deserved.

There is no such thing as "atrocious" for a fictitious character except in specific circumstances. As Stephen King said, "murder your darlings." Indeed, it's often stated in writing books that a story is all the crap a character goes through to achieve their goals. A lab rat fate is only appropriate or inappropriate according to the circumstances of the specific character.

ja must assume that in a real context not all good deeds are rewarded and all evil deeds are punished. ascension certainly had the risk the loss of herself as a human

the end does not leave a feeling quite happy, I see a little melancholy, it is unclear exactly what happened with ... one day he disappeared. the truth does not feel that they live a normal life, it seems that his humanity (a normal life) was lost, as the mythical end of Enoch who became something else, leaving humanity (beauty and simple wonders contains a normal life), that leaves me a melancholy / happy feeling

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Originally Posted by DarthYam

Given that when Kerrigan is selfish things blow up in her face (the reason Jim saved her in HOTS is because she chose the morally correct option over the expedient one) and that when she's selfless things work for her. Also, I'm pretty sure restoring life to dead worlds and taking on the Xel'naga message of giving life is an apology (she now wants to create life to make up). Kerrigan agreed to merge in order to save the other races and make amends (since Amon's death secured the future for everyone.)

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No they don't, actually her being stupid and taking Mengsk alone was the only thing that blew up in her face, that's it.

Secondly I don't think it's been confirmed that she's the one restoring life, and even so it's all in secret, so no.

"I agreed to merge to have ultimate god-like power" such a noble sacrifice. "I helped kill a common enemy" does not an apology make, she had to or she would be fucked.

"Stratos, this is EXACTLY why people could have a hard time seeing you're a good person in real life. Yes we know online it doesn't reflect your real self (this applies to everyone), but the way you're acting...."

Rag, I don't really care how people see me, i'm going to be the same exact asshole I was yesterday and every day before.

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Originally Posted by drakolobo

ja must assume that in a real context not all good deeds are rewarded and all evil deeds are punished. ascension certainly had the risk the loss of herself as a human

the end does not leave a feeling quite happy, I see a little melancholy, it is unclear exactly what happened with ... one day he disappeared. the truth does not feel that they live a normal life, it seems that his humanity (a normal life) was lost, as the mythical end of Enoch who became something else, leaving humanity (beauty and simple wonders contains a normal life), that leaves me a melancholy / happy feeling

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Uh, She has ultimate godly power now.

sorry, but I'm not buying this.

To be fair, Tygo, I think you're a cool dude.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

To be fair, Tygo, I think you're a cool dude.

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:D

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by KaiseStratosTygo

:D

Thanks!

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No prob. Your opinions are well thought out and interesting, and I don't see how opinions about a silly game can make you a bad person.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

Ah, I see. You're not looking at it like a writer. It would seem you like Kerrigan so much you want her to have a good ending, despite all. Thing is, Starcraft was at its best when it had consequences. When doing wrong meant a character would get it in the end. Basically every character has a tragic struggle, even Mengsk. When you make Kerri have a pretty princess ending, it cheapens the whole thing. Kerrigan's fate needed some level of punishment or hardship to make it acceptable, which is why so many people are pissed off by the epilogue -- she never got what she deserved.

There is no such thing as "atrocious" for a fictitious character except in specific circumstances. As Stephen King said, "murder your darlings." Indeed, it's often stated in writing books that a story is all the crap a character goes through to achieve their goals. A lab rat fate is only appropriate or inappropriate according to the circumstances of the specific character.

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No, I disagree. If Kerrigan goes through most of the story being a pawn to others, then breaks free, schemes her way into a position where no one else can control her only to realise she still can't get what she truly desires because she's still enslaved to the fear and bitterness and anger inside her, then putting her in someone else's cage is a regression for her character. Really, at that point breaking her free is the only real direction you can go.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

No, I disagree. If Kerrigan goes through most of the story being a pawn to others, then breaks free, schemes her way into a position where no one else can control her only to realise she still can't get what she truly desires because she's still enslaved to the fear and bitterness and anger inside her, then putting her in someone else's cage is a regression for her character. Really, at that point breaking her free is the only real direction you can go.

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Hm, I'd say that an executional problem -- it depends on how it's written. But some people are more free by being restrained. For example, Kerri, at the end of Brood War, is a slave to her own passions. And since at that point she's technically accomplished her goals, she has no future. Neither does she have friends, a career, a love, or anyone around besides mindless monsters. She's even stuck in a place where there's no art, architecture, theaters, shops, restaurants, or beach resorts. There's nowhere to go. Kerrigan's "free" and has power, but she really has nothing at all.

But hey, I'm open to other endings. Anything realistic with clear implications for both Kerrigan and everyone else works. Heck, I wish SC2 was less focused on her. That way her character wouldn't have been stretched beyond believability and she'd still have character potential. My main point is that Kerri should just have an ultimate fate that isn't things ending well for her, or her and Jimmy running off into the sunset. Gag.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

No, I disagree. If Kerrigan goes through most of the story being a pawn to others, then breaks free, schemes her way into a position where no one else can control her only to realise she still can't get what she truly desires because she's still enslaved to the fear and bitterness and anger inside her, then putting her in someone else's cage is a regression for her character. Really, at that point breaking her free is the only real direction you can go.

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Exactly. Kerrigan only ever being a pawn gets boring after a while. It feels like Warhammer in that it's grim for the sake of being grim. And in it's own way seeding life (which is what Kerrigan is implied to be doing) for the sake of seeding life is heroic. You don't have to be recognized in order to be a hero. Heroes should be heroes regardless of the reaction they receive. If someone's only been a chewtoy their whole life it gets boring as shit.

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Kerrigan suffered executional problems in the current trilogy but the idea of her overcoming her inner demons, working to achieve redemption and having at the very least a bittersweet ending is fine.

My point is that there really is no karma and rejecting a history that does not apply this system of cosmic retribution, because only reflects the personal moral and applied effects to a character. in a real context the villain can have a happy ending, the hero of the most horrible destinations

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Originally Posted by KaiseStratosTygo

Uh, She has ultimate godly power now.

sorry, but I'm not buying this.

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it is difficult if you focus on the fantasy of power

But take the case of Enoch, the myth / legend that instead of dying the way with God, and transcended, the mightiest angel Metatron became. But the nature of an angel, although his power is the loss of free will and are basically defined by their responsibility depending on the will of God, the human common things would cease to mean the same thing. like the simple things that give us happiness

A similar case is the story of Evangelion humanity transcending just joining a collective entity, Sinji reject this phenomenon, planting questions, as the value of self, our limitations, and the beauty of the little we have, when we can all , the limits of your personality vanishes.

For Kerrigan has been taken to the center of the wheel of life cycle universe and had the risk of being consumed by this responsibility, the way she and Jim is living is a mystery, we do not know if Jim was abducted on an idyllic fantasy if Kerrigan really has been released this responsability. abandon a normal life should not be taken lightly. Jim as a more of mysterious disappearances, never to be seen again, leaving a vacuum and uncertainty, but it is still a happy ending, though a bit melancholic

You can claim that Kerrigan's fate was unrealistic, but it was certainly unsatisfying, for a number of reasons. Indeed, the bitterness of her position only comes from the fact she might not be able to see Raynor ever again (I still maintain that the ghost at the end was Nova), which was a complete retcon, and has nothing to do with her SC1 incarnation. Sure, sometimes people who are horrible get away with good-ish fates, but Kerrigan's fate isn't merely her own. There are tons of people who feel raw about her and what she's done, so the genuine disgust players feel for the positivity of the ending is a realistic reflection of the disgust all the in-game characters might feel upon hearing that their greatest enemy became a Xel'Naga. At the very least, Artanis should be pissed as all hell.

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Exactly. Kerrigan only ever being a pawn gets boring after a while.

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Bad story telling begets bad story telling. Destroy and rebuild.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

Ah, I see. You're not looking at it like a writer. It would seem you like Kerrigan so much you want her to have a good ending, despite all. Thing is, Starcraft was at its best when it had consequences. When doing wrong meant a character would get it in the end. Basically every character has a tragic struggle, even Mengsk. When you make Kerri have a pretty princess ending, it cheapens the whole thing. Kerrigan's fate needed some level of punishment or hardship to make it acceptable, which is why so many people are pissed off by the epilogue -- she never got what she deserved.

There is no such thing as "atrocious" for a fictitious character except in specific circumstances. As Stephen King said, "murder your darlings." Indeed, it's often stated in writing books that a story is all the crap a character goes through to achieve their goals. A lab rat fate is only appropriate or inappropriate according to the circumstances of the specific character.

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No. I think that if a character only ever goes through the wringer its hard to care about them. I believe that Kerrigan should pay some price but also feel that if she truly works at it she can potentially earn a happy ending. I'm somewhat discontent since she could have worked harder, but if Kerrigan had spent HOTS and LOTV busting ass trying to make amends I wouldn't object.

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Originally Posted by DarthYam

Exactly. Kerrigan only ever being a pawn gets boring after a while. It feels like Warhammer in that it's grim for the sake of being grim. And in it's own way seeding life (which is what Kerrigan is implied to be doing) for the sake of seeding life is heroic. You don't have to be recognized in order to be a hero. Heroes should be heroes regardless of the reaction they receive. If someone's only been a chewtoy their whole life it gets boring as shit.

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Kerrigan suffered executional problems in the current trilogy but the idea of her overcoming her inner demons, working to achieve redemption and having at the very least a bittersweet ending is fine.

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What's the obsession with "seeding life" as some sort of atonement? In no way does that bring all the people she's killed back or actually atone for her crimes. A serial killer shouldn't be allowed to get out of jail by doing community service.

Being given infinite power and immortality as a "punishment" for mass murder is absurd. It's like electing Jeffrey Daumer as President of the United States of America so that he can finally be in a position to do some good in order to get out of jail. Kerrigan should have been executed in front of a jury after her actions in HoTS.

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Originally Posted by drakolobo

My point is that there really is no karma and rejecting a history that does not apply this system of cosmic retribution, because only reflects the personal moral and applied effects to a character. in a real context the villain can have a happy ending, the hero of the most horrible destinations

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In a real context, Raynor wouldn't have been in love with a mass murderer. In a real context, Artanis wouldn't bow down to someone who razed entire planets in the last game just to get revenge on one guy. In a real context, multiple characters would have called her out for her crimes and taken issue with her being given even more power given her complete and utter lack of restraint or judicious use of power. A benevolent being like Ouros sure as hell shouldn't have been ok with that.

Again, it's not about grim dark or treating Kerrigan like shit just because. It's about the lack of realism in an already fantastical setting.

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Originally Posted by drakolobo

My point is that there really is no karma and rejecting a history that does not apply this system of cosmic retribution, because only reflects the personal moral and applied effects to a character. in a real context the villain can have a happy ending, the hero of the most horrible destinations



it is difficult if you focus on the fantasy of power

But take the case of Enoch, the myth / legend that instead of dying the way with God, and transcended, the mightiest angel Metatron became. But the nature of an angel, although his power is the loss of free will and are basically defined by their responsibility depending on the will of God, the human common things would cease to mean the same thing. like the simple things that give us happiness

A similar case is the story of Evangelion humanity transcending just joining a collective entity, Sinji reject this phenomenon, planting questions, as the value of self, our limitations, and the beauty of the little we have, when we can all , the limits of your personality vanishes.

For Kerrigan has been taken to the center of the wheel of life cycle universe and had the risk of being consumed by this responsibility, the way she and Jim is living is a mystery, we do not know if Jim was abducted on an idyllic fantasy if Kerrigan really has been released this responsability. abandon a normal life should not be taken lightly. Jim as a more of mysterious disappearances, never to be seen again, leaving a vacuum and uncertainty, but it is still a happy ending, though a bit melancholic

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She has no resposnbilities thought, she's free to do as she pleases.

So, no you're not going to get me to believe that having ultimate pretty much unrestricted power is something for the person that holds it to mope about.

There's little I would do if such a thing existed in real life and I was able to attain it.

"My point is that there really is no karma and rejecting a history that does not apply this system of cosmic retribution, because only reflects the personal moral and applied effects to a character. in a real context the villain can have a happy ending, the hero of the most horrible destinations"

The Villain not only is not treated as such but gets everything they wanted, and I don't think they intended for it to be some "look this is realism" sort of thing but because they wanted their favorite pet sue to get off 100%

" but if Kerrigan had spent HOTS and LOTV busting ass trying to make amends I wouldn't object."

I would've been fine too, I was willing to accept a hard earned redemption after WoL, but HotS was like "nope, this is our favorite mary sue and she'll be able to do any and everything, end all be all, alpha-omega and be two contradictory things at once!"

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Too right! Being absolved scot-free and taking no responsibility is too easy an out for her, as is just having her straight-up killed as punishment for her sins. Given that her crimes are to do with her selfishly getting things her way, her redemption and reward for it should not involve the same thing of selfishly getting something that ultimately improves her lot. The reward should be the act of doing something good and not expecting/getting anything in return. Anything more than that threatens to make them too perfect and idealised. I guess that's why the epilogue is often criticised because it makes Kerrigan into a Mary Sue/turns the whole affair into what looks like fanfic.

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And the fact that it's not proven if she's really the one doing the seeding on the worlds.

If she really was and Blizzard said that, that's another story. But even then it still won't change anything. There'd still be plenty of people who want revenge.

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Originally Posted by KaiseStratosTygo

Rag, I don't really care how people see me, i'm going to be the same exact asshole I was yesterday and every day before.

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Which isn't smart.

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Originally Posted by DarthYam

Exactly. Kerrigan only ever being a pawn gets boring after a while. It feels like Warhammer in that it's grim for the sake of being grim. And in it's own way seeding life (which is what Kerrigan is implied to be doing) for the sake of seeding life is heroic. You don't have to be recognized in order to be a hero. Heroes should be heroes regardless of the reaction they receive. If someone's only been a chewtoy their whole life it gets boring as shit.

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Kerrigan suffered executional problems in the current trilogy but the idea of her overcoming her inner demons, working to achieve redemption and having at the very least a bittersweet ending is fine.

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Yes but I think for a lot of people the problem here is this only happened at the very end, as in that only in the epilogue and everything did she finally begin to look beyond herself. For a lot of people, they would say that this is far too late for her to do anything that can even remotely resemble redemption. Even if she really DID die in the battle against Amon, people might still have criticized it because she didn't suffer enough for the past actions.

I agree with your point about the recognition point. The purpose of the hero is mainly just to ensure the safety of others, not because they want a reward of out all this.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

You can claim that Kerrigan's fate was unrealistic, but it was certainly unsatisfying, for a number of reasons. Indeed, the bitterness of her position only comes from the fact she might not be able to see Raynor ever again (I still maintain that the ghost at the end was Nova), which was a complete retcon, and has nothing to do with her SC1 incarnation. Sure, sometimes people who are horrible get away with good-ish fates, but Kerrigan's fate isn't merely her own. There are tons of people who feel raw about her and what she's done, so the genuine disgust players feel for the positivity of the ending is a realistic reflection of the disgust all the in-game characters might feel upon hearing that their greatest enemy became a Xel'Naga. At the very least, Artanis should be pissed as all hell.

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I had expected the Protoss people to have begun making plans in hoping to locate her again for their own version of justice. That was another flaw in LotV in that Artanis forgave her way too easily without her having to do anything.

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Originally Posted by DarthYam

No. I think that if a character only ever goes through the wringer its hard to care about them. I believe that Kerrigan should pay some price but also feel that if she truly works at it she can potentially earn a happy ending. I'm somewhat discontent since she could have worked harder, but if Kerrigan had spent HOTS and LOTV busting ass trying to make amends I wouldn't object.

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But the problem is that's not what happened. Millions of people still died in HotS because she wanted revenge on Mengsk. Granted the industrial worlds were necessary, but that's not how others would view it. Plus she should have at least tried to help the terrans rebuild or something, otherwise as shown in LotV, it left the Dominion completely defenseless against Amon's forces.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

What's the obsession with "seeding life" as some sort of atonement? In no way does that bring all the people she's killed back or actually atone for her crimes. A serial killer shouldn't be allowed to get out of jail by doing community service.

Being given infinite power and immortality as a "punishment" for mass murder is absurd. It's like electing Jeffrey Daumer as President of the United States of America so that he can finally be in a position to do some good in order to get out of jail. Kerrigan should have been executed in front of a jury after her actions in HoTS.

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Then you can start hoping that at some point down the road she'll understand (or learn from Raynor) to give that power up

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Originally Posted by Gradius

In a real context, Raynor wouldn't have been in love with a mass murderer.

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I'm certainly sure that you know, that people are irrational when the word love is at stake. people in love justifies the actions of people. People fall in love with bad people all the time, and turn their heads in the word redemption.
Jim certainly has an ideal justification if he blame her for the crimes when she has infestation He was being an idiot .

Jim was will revenge too, just when Kerrigan returned to normal wanted to forget
In fact the main motivators of jim has revolved around Kerrigan, abandonment Arcturus for kerrigan, he risk people for Kerrigan in Tarsonis and char. The morality of Jim, is gray in points.
certainly all raynor behavior is realistic

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In a real context, Artanis wouldn't bow down to someone who razed entire planets in the last game just to get revenge on one guy.

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Artanis is certainly quite rational, He is allied with alarak someone who openly manipulated.

Artanis judges the now, not the past, the first reaction was Artanis Kerrigan attack. When he realized the difference the queen of blade and kerrigan primal,his hostility declined.

Kerrigan did not differ all to Jim Raynor and both was to take revenge, he risked his crew killed and soldiers of the domain for kill to arturus. Kerrigan also behavior changes once their revenge end .
artanis kneeling by a religious component, is not kneel before Kerrigan, kneels by the phenomenon of ascension basically the end of a cycle and the beginning of another associated with the divinity xelnaga

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In a real context, multiple characters would have called her out for her crimes and taken issue with her being given even more

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ja for that this work of Selendis (:rolleyes: Selendis likes to remember the mistakes of others) and Amon (during the ascension say Kerrigan can be counterproductive, certainly Jim trusts in kerrigan and others are trusts in Ouros, being a xelnaga

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power given her complete and utter lack of restraint or judicious use of power. A benevolent being like Ouros sure as hell shouldn't have been ok with that.

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certainly if I could accept it, would give credibility to the election of Ourus,is a xelnaga like good god, he knows what he does.
also helps that she is only a woman who just wanted to avenge against a tyran and now more stable and working vs extinction, when I see on the horizont a universal genocidal god
[

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Originally Posted by Gradius

What's the obsession with "seeding life" as some sort of atonement? In no way does that bring all the people she's killed back or actually atone for her crimes. A serial killer shouldn't be allowed to get out of jail by doing community service.

Being given infinite power and immortality as a "punishment" for mass murder is absurd. It's like electing Jeffrey Daumer as President of the United States of America so that he can finally be in a position to do some good in order to get out of jail. Kerrigan should have been executed in front of a jury after her actions in HoTS.


In a real context, Raynor wouldn't have been in love with a mass murderer. In a real context, Artanis wouldn't bow down to someone who razed entire planets in the last game just to get revenge on one guy. In a real context, multiple characters would have called her out for her crimes and taken issue with her being given even more power given her complete and utter lack of restraint or judicious use of power. A benevolent being like Ouros sure as hell shouldn't have been ok with that.

Again, it's not about grim dark or treating Kerrigan like shit just because. It's about the lack of realism in an already fantastical setting.

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The seeding life shows that she's doing the opposite of what she's done her whole life. Now she's creating life rather than destroying it. Kerrigan actually did start to change for the better after the "Believe in me" scene. She had no reason to believe jim would ever forgive her (in fact she's shocked when he does show up to help her). I agree that Kerrigan should have worked more to earn redemption but I think that spending millennia creating life and restoring barren worlds is a step in the direction.

The real problem is that in Heart the crew wanted her to be vengeful warrior and conflicted anti hero at the same time. As such it was a mess.

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Originally Posted by DarthYam

The seeding life shows that she's doing the opposite of what she's done her whole life. Now she's creating life rather than destroying it. Kerrigan actually did start to change for the better after the "Believe in me" scene. She had no reason to believe jim would ever forgive her (in fact she's shocked when he does show up to help her). I agree that Kerrigan should have worked more to earn redemption but I think that spending millennia creating life and restoring barren worlds is a step in the direction.

The real problem is that in Heart the crew wanted her to be vengeful warrior and conflicted anti hero at the same time. As such it was a mess.

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" did start to change for the better after the "Believe in me""

She seems pretty much the same to me, only wanting Raynor's D a bit more I guess.

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Originally Posted by KaiseStratosTygo

" did start to change for the better after the "Believe in me""

She seems pretty much the same to me, only wanting Raynor's D a bit more I guess.

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It only shows in the end she cannot do it without him.

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Originally Posted by DarthYam

The seeding life shows that she's doing the opposite of what she's done her whole life. Now she's creating life rather than destroying it. Kerrigan actually did start to change for the better after the "Believe in me" scene. She had no reason to believe jim would ever forgive her (in fact she's shocked when he does show up to help her). I agree that Kerrigan should have worked more to earn redemption but I think that spending millennia creating life and restoring barren worlds is a step in the direction.

The real problem is that in Heart the crew wanted her to be vengeful warrior and conflicted anti hero at the same time. As such it was a mess.

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Same here. As I saw it, Kerrigan had expected that even by agreeing to Valerian's request in the last HotS mission, Raynor would interpret it as just another manipulation, as she had done so in the past.

HotS suffered the inconsistency matter. Either made her vengeful OR try to get redemption. Usually when you try to mix the two, it satisfies no one

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

It only shows in the end she cannot do it without him.

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Same here. As I saw it, Kerrigan had expected that even by agreeing to Valerian's request in the last HotS mission, Raynor would interpret it as just another manipulation, as she had done so in the past.

HotS suffered the inconsistency matter. Either made her vengeful OR try to get redemption. Usually when you try to mix the two, it satisfies no one

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I interpreted Kerrigan's actions as genuinely deciding to spare the civilians because it was right. I've said elsewhere that after Umoja she's basically obsessed with revenge and will do whatever it takes to get it. After getting called out and forced to admit she shitting on Raynor's memory she starts to analyze what she's doing. When Raynor rejects her she finally realizes just how selfish and myopic she's been and tries to do what's right. If Kerrigan had just steamrolled civilians and fallen into Mengsk's trap Raynor would've left her to her fate. Because she chose the harder but morally correct choice she Raynor saved her. Heart was really the weak link in the trilogy.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

Hm, I'd say that an executional problem -- it depends on how it's written. But some people are more free by being restrained. For example, Kerri, at the end of Brood War, is a slave to her own passions. And since at that point she's technically accomplished her goals, she has no future. Neither does she have friends, a career, a love, or anyone around besides mindless monsters. She's even stuck in a place where there's no art, architecture, theaters, shops, restaurants, or beach resorts. There's nowhere to go. Kerrigan's "free" and has power, but she really has nothing at all.

But hey, I'm open to other endings. Anything realistic with clear implications for both Kerrigan and everyone else works. Heck, I wish SC2 was less focused on her. That way her character wouldn't have been stretched beyond believability and she'd still have character potential. My main point is that Kerri should just have an ultimate fate that isn't things ending well for her, or her and Jimmy running off into the sunset. Gag.

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No, that's actually what I meant. If in Brood War they gave her ultimate perceived freedom and yet she was still a prisoner of her fears and deeds and wounds, there's nowhere further to take that character arc. At least, as far as I can perceive. She's done. So either you take a new perspective, or you remove her from the story, and that's why I say I would have liked her riding off into the sunset with Raynor at the end of Wings of Liberty: the happy ending - and the journey - aren't hers there, they're Raynor's.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

No, that's actually what I meant. If in Brood War they gave her ultimate perceived freedom and yet she was still a prisoner of her fears and deeds and wounds, there's nowhere further to take that character arc. At least, as far as I can perceive. She's done. So either you take a new perspective, or you remove her from the story, and that's why I say I would have liked her riding off into the sunset with Raynor at the end of Wings of Liberty: the happy ending - and the journey - aren't hers there, they're Raynor's.

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I disagree that there's nothing that can be done with the arc. Quite the opposite, actually. There's a choice for her, Zerg or human, and her vacillations as she attempts to choose a side -- or perhaps she ignores the choice entirely. There's forty bajillion directions for this to go in. Mental entrapment is a whole 'nother beast from being externally controlled. It's the theme of getting what you wished for, only to find out that it didn't make you happy at all. Just taken to an extreme because of the fact Kerrigan has affected so much of the K Sector. That screams plot potential.

You do have a point when it comes to Raynor's story. Unfortunately, fact of the matter is, SC2 wasn't Raynor's story. Even in WoL he's primarily driven by saving Kerri -- moping for her, allying with a potential enemy to save her, killing a friend to save her, etc. Now, if they'd written it more to the degree that Raynor's role in the story had more real importance, rather than him just doing whatever it took to get Kerri to the places the plot wanted her, then I might see what you were saying.

Of course, your statement presumes Raynor's version of a happy ending is spending it with Kerrigan. Even if their relationship had been established as a romance in SC1, what she's done since then ultimately destroys any love a realistic character would have for her. It's entirely possible that a happy ending is out of Raynor's reach, given his alcoholism and depression. The only real happy ending he could have is one where the pain in his heart could be healed in some way. And that's not merely a matter of having a girl -- dude has lost his original home, been betrayed by Mengsk, failed to save Kerri, and watched most of his Protoss friends die. Any real man who'd gone through all that is bound to feel like garbage. Serious PTSD. A major thing that pisses me off about SC2 is that they fail to show the extent of Raynor's extremely likely disillusion with life.

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Originally Posted by DarthYam

I interpreted Kerrigan's actions as genuinely deciding to spare the civilians because it was right. I've said elsewhere that after Umoja she's basically obsessed with revenge and will do whatever it takes to get it. After getting called out and forced to admit she shitting on Raynor's memory she starts to analyze what she's doing. When Raynor rejects her she finally realizes just how selfish and myopic she's been and tries to do what's right. If Kerrigan had just steamrolled civilians and fallen into Mengsk's trap Raynor would've left her to her fate. Because she chose the harder but morally correct choice she Raynor saved her. Heart was really the weak link in the trilogy.

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But as I saw it, it was still only for Raynor's sake. If Raynor HAD died, she could have cared less what happened to the people of Korhal. She endorsed Valerian as the new Dominion leader and allowed the Dominion to survive because she realized if she still refused to change from what she's been doing, then it would only prove Raynor's efforts had been a complete waste because in the end she had learned NOTHING.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

I disagree that there's nothing that can be done with the arc. Quite the opposite, actually. There's a choice for her, Zerg or human, and her vacillations as she attempts to choose a side -- or perhaps she ignores the choice entirely. There's forty bajillion directions for this to go in. Mental entrapment is a whole 'nother beast from being externally controlled. It's the theme of getting what you wished for, only to find out that it didn't make you happy at all. Just taken to an extreme because of the fact Kerrigan has affected so much of the K Sector. That screams plot potential.

You do have a point when it comes to Raynor's story. Unfortunately, fact of the matter is, SC2 wasn't Raynor's story. Even in WoL he's primarily driven by saving Kerri -- moping for her, allying with a potential enemy to save her, killing a friend to save her, etc. Now, if they'd written it more to the degree that Raynor's role in the story had more real importance, rather than him just doing whatever it took to get Kerri to the places the plot wanted her, then I might see what you were saying.

Of course, your statement presumes Raynor's version of a happy ending is spending it with Kerrigan. Even if their relationship had been established as a romance in SC1, what she's done since then ultimately destroys any love a realistic character would have for her. It's entirely possible that a happy ending is out of Raynor's reach, given his alcoholism and depression. The only real happy ending he could have is one where the pain in his heart could be healed in some way. And that's not merely a matter of having a girl -- dude has lost his original home, been betrayed by Mengsk, failed to save Kerri, and watched most of his Protoss friends die. Any real man who'd gone through all that is bound to feel like garbage. Serious PTSD. A major thing that pisses me off about SC2 is that they fail to show the extent of Raynor's extremely likely disillusion with life.

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Except that Kerrigan's behavior made no real sense. She was a complex figure in 1. In brood war she's a two dimensional villain who almost always commits needlessly cruel acts of sadism on both mengsk and the protoss (who never wronged her aside from tassadar out playing her, meaning her reaction was disproportionate at BEST). In Brood War she wasn't deep. A more logical explanation is similar to charles whitman (The guy who killed 32 people in texas in 1966. Whitman had a tumor in the part of the brain that controlled fear and rage. While he still made his choices the tumor made it easier to embrace the darkness within. Something could happen with Kerrigan (The infestation amplified things like rage and fear, suppressed things like empathy and kindness, while Amon's taint redirected her anger into something cold blooded and sadistic rather than flaming wrath.)

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Also the entire point of WOL is Raynor overcoming his cynicism and giving a shit again. Blizzard stated that the original intent was that Raynor did want to kill Kerrigan. When Valerian presented him with the very real chance that the artifact could give her her humanity back (and thus allow rehabilitation) Raynor had to choose between being cynical and being hopeful. Ultimately he was sick of living in despair and chose to consider the possibility that kerrigan was savable

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Originally Posted by DarthYam

Also the entire point of WOL is Raynor overcoming his cynicism and giving a shit again. Blizzard stated that the original intent was that Raynor did want to kill Kerrigan. When Valerian presented him with the very real chance that the artifact could give her her humanity back (and thus allow rehabilitation) Raynor had to choose between being cynical and being hopeful. Ultimately he was sick of living in despair and chose to consider the possibility that kerrigan was savable

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Except he was struggling with how to live with himself if he did, because he still blamed himself for what happened on Tarsonis. Then when Zeratul came along and told him about the prophecy and not to do it, it tore Raynor up even more because he didn't know just WHAT he was supposed to do. This conflict continued all the way until Valerian explained what the artifact might be able to do to.

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Originally Posted by DarthYam

She was a complex figure in 1.

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Not really. All we see of Kerrigan in Sc1 is Rebel Yell. Even then, it's not much. She's loyal to Mengsk despite doubting him until she then becomes lost to the Zerg. There's nothing more to her since all the stuff that occurs later as Infested Kerrigan don't really count because she's under the control of the Overmind. If she's not herself in BW due to infestation making her crazy/Amon corrupted, then she must be clearly even more "not herself" when the Overmind was still around.

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Originally Posted by DarthYam

Blizzard stated that the original intent was that Raynor did want to kill Kerrigan. When Valerian presented him with the very real chance that the artifact could give her her humanity back (and thus allow rehabilitation) Raynor had to choose between being cynical and being hopeful. Ultimately he was sick of living in despair and chose to consider the possibility that kerrigan was savable

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I sometimes wonder if the story in WoL would've hit harder had they/Valerian not revealed the artifact would give Kerrigan her humanity back - that it just would've killed Zerg and that was it. It would've helped sell the idea that Raynor still wanted to kill Kerrigan to keep continuity of before and it would've made that last cinematic with Raynor's killing Tychus more impactful because up until he actaully goes to protect Kerri, you wouldn't know if he actually would've done it or not.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I sometimes wonder if the story in WoL would've hit harder had they/Valerian not revealed the artifact would give Kerrigan her humanity back - that it just would've killed Zerg and that was it. It would've helped sell the idea that Raynor still wanted to kill Kerrigan to keep continuity of before and it would've made that last cinematic with Raynor's killing Tychus more impactful because up until he actaully goes to protect Kerri, you wouldn't know if he actually would've done it or not.

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It would have left Raynor to wallow in his despair even more. As I see it, this would make things easier for Tychus to convince him to kill her. This was somewhat explained in the interviews WAY back when WoL was out, but before we got any info for HotS. Tychus had basically been convinced that in the end, Raynor would get over it because he would understand Kerrigan died years ago on Tarsonis. Yes in the short term he'd be devastated, but he'd understand it was for the best. And this remained Tychus's mentality even by the beginning of "All In", because no one knew if the artifact would really work or not. However if we go by what you said and if Valerian never revealed that, I believe the first thing Raynor would do is ask Dr. Hanson (if she's still aboard the Hyperion) to study the artifact a bit more, and see if it's possible to kill the Zerg in her, but at the same time leave the human part intact. The problem is that I don't think she would have been able to give him an answer. As far as Hanson was concerned (if she's still aboard the Hyperion), she would easily come to the conclusion that the artifact was designed to kill Xel'Naga creations, but leave non-Xel'Naga creations alone. There's absolutely no way to tell what it would do in a hybrid case like Kerrigan's.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

It would have left Raynor to wallow in his despair even more. As I see it, this would make things easier for Tychus to convince him to kill her.

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Not sure about Raynor "wallowing in despair even more" since he already feels and knows that Kerrigan can't be saved and is not expecting a solution to be realistically possible. Part of his ongoing malaise in WoL is that in addition to feeling some guilt and shame at not being able to help Kerri back then, he can't even get any sort of closure by killing the monster she has become due to a strict inability to do so. The reveal that the artifact would be just an effective anti-Zerg weapon would therefore galvanise Raynor to still pursue ending Kerrigan since he never had a good opportunity such as this before and it'd be cathartic for him/be a form of (dark) redemption for allowing himself to be tricked.

The unforeseen deinfestation that occurs would then give Raynor a second opportunity for redemption but in a much more potentially positive note. He doesn't necessarily need to protect her from Tychus at that point if he has become fully embittered and cynical (as he pretends to be) but that he actually does protect her from Tychus in the end would then be seen as the climax of Raynor's regaining his positive outlook again.

This way, the majority of the story would keep a stronger continuity with what came before in BW, allow for more sustained tension in the story (since once Valerian reveals Kerrigan can be deinfested in the WoL we got, everyone knows exactly that Raynor will protect Kerrigan from dying if given the chance) and gives more weight to Raynor's decision to protect Kerrigan from Tychus.

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Originally Posted by DarthYam

Except that Kerrigan's behavior made no real sense. She was a complex figure in 1. In brood war she's a two dimensional villain who almost always commits needlessly cruel acts of sadism on both mengsk and the protoss....

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Did you see the thread where we were talking about Kerrigan's motivations? I can't remember which one that was. In any case, in it, we'd discussed how Kerrigan was acting in BW in a way that would allow her to remain outside Overmind control as well as satisfy her sick desires for revenge. We also pointed out how there was a difference between how Kerri treated people who had personally affected her, and those that were simply in her way. She was willing to let Mengsk and Zeratul live, because torturing them was more fun than simply killing them off. Aldaris and DuGalle, on the other hand, were just people in the way, and she disposed of them quickly.

In other words, simply being a bad guy doesn't make Kerri simplistic. Her needlessly cruel acts were not needless in her own mind, because her actions were an expression of her anguish at having a past of being nothing more than various people's pawns.

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Also the entire point of WOL is Raynor overcoming his cynicism and giving a shit again. Blizzard stated that the original intent was that Raynor did want to kill Kerrigan. When Valerian presented him with the very real chance that the artifact could give her her humanity back (and thus allow rehabilitation) Raynor had to choose between being cynical and being hopeful. Ultimately he was sick of living in despair and chose to consider the possibility that kerrigan was savable

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Again, that's not how the story was presented. Raynor was acting in a way that gave Kerrigan what she wanted, and Kerrigan was making her own choices to achieve what she alone wanted. Clearly she's a bigger driving force in the plot than good ol' Jimmy boy.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

I disagree that there's nothing that can be done with the arc. Quite the opposite, actually. There's a choice for her, Zerg or human, and her vacillations as she attempts to choose a side -- or perhaps she ignores the choice entirely.

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That's not the same arc though. I did say you could go in different directions.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

You do have a point when it comes to Raynor's story. Unfortunately, fact of the matter is, SC2 wasn't Raynor's story. Even in WoL he's primarily driven by saving Kerri -- moping for her, allying with a potential enemy to save her, killing a friend to save her, etc. Now, if they'd written it more to the degree that Raynor's role in the story had more real importance, rather than him just doing whatever it took to get Kerri to the places the plot wanted her, then I might see what you were saying.

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Completely disagree. Raynor in Wings of Liberty is driven by Kerrigan the same way he's driven by the Xel'naga Artifact, it's only relevant for what it means to him. It's what Raynor feels about it, what he's willing to do for it, and how that shapes his relationship with the other characters.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

Of course, your statement presumes Raynor's version of a happy ending is spending it with Kerrigan. Even if their relationship had been established as a romance in SC1, what she's done since then ultimately destroys any love a realistic character would have for her.

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Not at all. Kerrigan's the victim, Raynor blames Mengsk for everything. And himself. Which is a major part of the issue. He can't give up on Kerrigan without giving up on himself. Which he sort of has at the beginning of the series, also coinciding with the period where he thought he'd have to kill her. When he gets a chance to save her is when he gets more driven, but also more desperate and single-minded.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

It's entirely possible that a happy ending is out of Raynor's reach, given his alcoholism and depression. The only real happy ending he could have is one where the pain in his heart could be healed in some way. And that's not merely a matter of having a girl -- dude has lost his original home, been betrayed by Mengsk, failed to save Kerri, and watched most of his Protoss friends die. Any real man who'd gone through all that is bound to feel like garbage. Serious PTSD. A major thing that pisses me off about SC2 is that they fail to show the extent of Raynor's extremely likely disillusion with life.

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That goes for every character in the series though.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I sometimes wonder if the story in WoL would've hit harder had they/Valerian not revealed the artifact would give Kerrigan her humanity back - that it just would've killed Zerg and that was it. It would've helped sell the idea that Raynor still wanted to kill Kerrigan to keep continuity of before and it would've made that last cinematic with Raynor's killing Tychus more impactful because up until he actaully goes to protect Kerri, you wouldn't know if he actually would've done it or not.

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Not sure that would've been enough for Raynor to consider allying with a Mengsk, though.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

That's not the same arc though. I did say you could go in different directions.

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We're talking in terms of potentia, here. I'm just discussing my ideas for what I think Kerrigan's fate should be. Feel free to mention your own.

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Completely disagree. Raynor in Wings of Liberty is driven by Kerrigan the same way he's driven by the Xel'naga Artifact, it's only relevant for what it means to him. It's what Raynor feels about it, what he's willing to do for it, and how that shapes his relationship with the other characters.

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And I disagree again. What it means to him (ignoring SC/BW) is its ability to save Kerri. He's doing it for her, even against the objections of his crew. He's not making decisions about his own life, but rather what he thinks is best for her. Kerrigan also cares and acts about what she wants. Thus, her desires are the real focus here.

But I'll grant you that Raynor's motivations are pretty wonky in WoL. His attention is divided between earning cash, starting a rebellion, rescuing civilians, and all the Kerri drama. While the Kerri stuff was his primary focus, his disjointed, truncated efforts in the other three areas (he didn't take down Mengsk's government or create a replacement, the rescuing thing was awkward because of the strange way Blizz treated the plot choice, and he didn't actually earn much in the way of cash) meant that his own personal activities were essentially sacrificed so that he could have the chance to go save his Zerg lady. All that other stuff was plot filler; excuses for players to have certain types of missions. As opposed to Kerrigan's activities, all of which ultimately led up to her fate in LotV.

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Not at all. Kerrigan's the victim, Raynor blames Mengsk for everything. And himself. Which is a major part of the issue. He can't give up on Kerrigan without giving up on himself. Which he sort of has at the beginning of the series, also coinciding with the period where he thought he'd have to kill her. When he gets a chance to save her is when he gets more driven, but also more desperate and single-minded.

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This is pure SC2 retcon. BW Raynor totally gave up on her when Fenix died (and it's crackheaded that he suddenly cared about that again in HotS). Probably already gave up on himself, too, what with losing so much more than just a girl.

No no, remember, it's not your or my perspective that matters. It's Raynor's. Would a man realistically see her as a victim, particularly when he isn't privy to all the information the player gets to see? Also, is Raynor willing to disregard justice for the sake of saving her? While I'd be willing to believe he might go back on his vow to kill her, we have to ask ourselves if he wouldn't allow her to stand trial, or if he was capable/willing to get her if she were captured by others. Kerrigan is guilty of a lot, and he's not going to wisk her away into the sunset. Even if he could disregard his vow to kill her (it would have been delicious if he didn't), their relationship was not a romance, nor was she his only failure.

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That goes for every character in the series though.

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Not really. Certainly not equally, in any case. Raynor, more than any other character, has had a complete line of failures. He couldn't save Mar Sara, his anti-Confederacy actions ended up putting a tyrant on the throne, he couldn't stop Kerrigan from becoming infested, and his actions in BW ultimately helped Kerri get what she wanted while tearing down humanity at the same time. The only real positive to his career is his help in defending Aiur, and that planet was ultimately lost. He then couldn't save Fenix, and was at that point powerless to perform his vow to kill Kerri.

The only character that comes close in that regard is Zeratul, who is responsible for helping the Zerg find Aiur and killing the second Overmind for Kerri. He, however, has motivation to go forward in investigating the hybrids. Mengsk is a psychotic optimist, and is only at the end of BW realizing that he needs to get serious. He's still got power left to fight on, and his optimism has only taken a hit. Aldaris always stubbornly refused to believe in his own ineffectivity, whether he had a right to or no. Artie boy is still youthful and stubborn enough to trust in the Protoss without bitterness. Fenix is the definition of soldiering on. Raszagal could accept her death with hope for the future. Stukov is pragmatic and not as emotionally vulnerable as Raynor.

SC2 aside, of course.