[Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

Not to support Fanatic's side, or any side, but I'd like to address something.

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Tassadar doesn't have jack to apologize for. The order to purge planets is on the Conclave, not him, and for all we know he indirectly saved many more lives. Fenix & Raynor were fighting against a faction that was going to enslave the entire sector, which the Morians allied themselves with. Why the hell should they apologize? The war is war excuse actually applies here.

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Not sure that's true. There's the whole thing about whether someone is guilty for what they were ordered to do (take, say, Nazis), and I don't think it fully excuses Tassadar that the Conclave told him to. Tassadar knew that destroying the human worlds without trying to save the uninfested was wrong. Also, since the Protoss didn't declare war, we can question whether or not war is an excuse.

On the other hand, Tassadar did see the error of his ways, and befriended both humans and DTs. He set aside the self-superior attitudes of Aiur to help others. And despite war not really being an excuse, there was some logic to the idea of destroying the infested worlds.

Did you mean to say Morians? I don't recall them allying with Fenix and Raynor.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

Not sure that's true. There's the whole thing about whether someone is guilty for what they were ordered to do (take, say, Nazis), and I don't think it fully excuses Tassadar that the Conclave told him to. Tassadar knew that destroying the human worlds without trying to save the uninfested was wrong. Also, since the Protoss didn't declare war, we can question whether or not war is an excuse.

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I'm sure they were technically at war with the zerg. It's like the Japan firebombing raids; I doubt anybody was happy with killing civilians, but Japan had to be stopped. Nazis weren't the only ones guilty of killing innocent civilians.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

On the other hand, Tassadar did see the error of his ways, and befriended both humans and DTs. He set aside the self-superior attitudes of Aiur to help others. And despite war not really being an excuse, there was some logic to the idea of destroying the infested worlds.

Did you mean to say Morians? I don't recall them allying with Fenix and Raynor.

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It's implied the Morians allied with the UED because they were still operational while the Dominion is in shambles.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

You get that we're attacking one planet? Supply planets are irrelevant in a Blitzkrieg. That's basic. A factory isn't going to produce a Viking and get it onto the field during the time that Kerrigan spends attacking Korhal.

This isn't WW2 where you have to plow through Europe and worry about supply lines. You can warp straight there and Kerrigan has the Leviathans to keep reinforcements out.

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One planet that Mengsk recalled all his forces to, so destroying those forces while they're separated makes the defense weaker. According to the wiki, there were about three months between Arcturus' first attack against Kerrigan and his death, that's a lot of military hardware Arcturus can get from multiple planets' worth of production in that time. Your "one planet" premise is wrong. She was fighting the entire might of the Terran Dominion.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Answer the question.

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Why would I? It's completely irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

So leave. It's your life vs. millions of people. Kerrigan has an army of renewable bloodthirsty slaves to protect her.

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Ah yes, live your life on the run because fighting back against sadistic dictators hell-bent on your demise makes you the incarnation of evil. Raynor and Fenix should've run from the UED in Brood War then. They all should've run from the Confederacy in Rebel Yell. And what of Tassadar, Fenix and Zeratul's truly evil decision to return to Aiur and fight the Conclave?

Even by your inane standards there's nothing novel here.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Tassadar doesn't have jack to apologize for. The order to purge planets is on the Conclave, not him, and for all we know he indirectly saved many more lives.

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Tassadar is only guilty of repeated planetary genocides, not a truly heinous crime like destroying an enemy military outpost! Only the most irrational minds would find people who commit horrible crimes guilty if they were ordered to do so.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Fenix & Raynor were fighting against a faction that was going to enslave the entire sector,

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Said Kerrigan, who spends all of Brood War being honest.

So what happened to running?

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Why the hell should they apologize? The war is war excuse actually applies here.

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Of course. Being at war with the Dominion is no excuse for killing Dominion troops. Being at war with the UED fully excuses killing Morians because stealing their stuff is easier than mining it yourself.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

It's in the game therefore it happened? -_-

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Ah, so you are asserting that the entire planet got covered in creep before Ryloth even got the time to receive her orders. Very well, if that's the insanity you want to believe.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Not sure if joking or serious. I link you an entire article full of evidence and you say "you have no evidence".

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Bullshit. Every claim of yours that I've fact-checked has been made up. But in this specific case, I asked for evidence that she's been murdering civilians in her Brood Mother orders (hell, I'd ask for evidence that she's been murdering civilians above and beyond what other characters have done, but one thing at a time). This is what's in your article as "evidence":

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We watch in one instance as the lights all over one planet are engulfed in creep, and again, we have no reason to believe that the brood mothers stopped to make their task harder in order to save civilians.

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Lights go dark and absence of evidence. That's your "mountains of evidence". Somehow I remain unconvinced.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Get over your confirmation bias. Be honest, were you planning to disagree before you had even read it based on your one cursory HoTS playthrough?

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Get over yourself. I hated Heart of the Swarm. I think Kerrigan does absolutely nothing to earn her stupid angelic ascension and "redemption". I asked that original question completely expecting you to provide me with an actual case of Kerrigan attacking something that wasn't a Dominion military target. Your position was so staggeringly dishonest that I had to refute it.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

If you think Raynor choosing to open fire on civilians for no good reason fits the narrative and his character, that's your prerogative. Guess he slaughtered some more innocent scientists on Valhalla then.

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So now it's about fitting a narrative and no longer about "It's in the game therefore it happened? -_-"

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Raynor - helped rescue people on Mar Sara. Sent a rescue mission to Char. Helped rescue protoss at the start of BW.
Kerrigan - went out of her way to plant emitters so that only military targets on Antiga would be targeted.
Mengsk - helped rescue civilians on Mar Sara too.
Tassadar - spared civilians on Tarsonis, tried to stop more Protoss from dying in the civil war.
Zeratul - went out of his way to save protoss civilians in BW. etc.

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Fascinating how you went from "Kerrigan make efforts to save civilians in those places she's attacking" to "other people make plenty of efforts to save civilians they are trying to protect". Almost like you expected me not to notice. But no, Kerrigan is still one of only two people to have made a deliberate effort to avoid civilian deaths.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Kerrigan was delusional and believed Arcturus would come around. Raynor left. What victory did he enjoy? What the hell are you talking about?

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It's simple. The Sons of Korhal unleashed the Zerg upon Tarsonis. Raynor and Kerrigan remained members of the Sons of Korhal despite this act. This is much, more evil than anything you have demonstrated Kerrigan doing to the Dominion in Heart of the Swarm.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

She didn't spare crap.

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Outright lie. Those wounded were going to get slaughtered by the Zerg and she spared them.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

I'm sorry, I thought you were trying to make your argument remotely relative to the topic at hand. Proceed with the false analogies as per normal then.

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I would have assumed that "this is an RTS wargame, not a stealth assassination game" would be relevant to why problems are solved with real-time strategy wars and not stealth assassinations. But hey, you hate that StarCraft II was about large scale conflict, that's fine.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Ok, let me kill off some brain cells and assume that Raynor and Fenix are assholes for assaulting a faction that allied themselves with the UED, who were going to enslave everyone. How does this justify Kerrigan's mass murder of multiple planets?

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It's not, it's an argument that you're being completely irrational in blaming her for things you are completely fine with others doing.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Sorry, but your position that planets with lights, industrial complexes and buildings on them are devoid of civilians is completely idiotic. Tell me again about how the Brood Mothers would have went out of their way to spare them?

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Tell me when Kerrigan killed civilians. Your entire argument is "Kerrigan used the Zerg to attack Dominion military assets. Can you prove that no civilians were harmed in those? Therefore she is a satan."

I told you earlier, absence of evidence doesn't allow you to assume whatever you wish.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

One planet that Mengsk recalled all his forces to, so destroying those forces while they're separated makes the defense weaker. According to the wiki, there were about three months between Arcturus' first attack against Kerrigan and his death, that's a lot of military hardware Arcturus can get from multiple planets' worth of production in that time. Your "one planet" premise is wrong. She was fighting the entire might of the Terran Dominion.



Why would I? It's completely irrelevant.



Ah yes, live your life on the run because fighting back against sadistic dictators hell-bent on your demise makes you the incarnation of evil. Raynor and Fenix should've run from the UED in Brood War then. They all should've run from the Confederacy in Rebel Yell. And what of Tassadar, Fenix and Zeratul's truly evil decision to return to Aiur and fight the Conclave?

Even by your inane standards there's nothing novel here.



Tassadar is only guilty of repeated planetary genocides, not a truly heinous crime like destroying an enemy military outpost! Only the most irrational minds would find people who commit horrible crimes guilty if they were ordered to do so.



Said Kerrigan, who spends all of Brood War being honest.

So what happened to running?



Of course. Being at war with the Dominion is no excuse for killing Dominion troops. Being at war with the UED fully excuses killing Morians because stealing their stuff is easier than mining it yourself.



Ah, so you are asserting that the entire planet got covered in creep before Ryloth even got the time to receive her orders. Very well, if that's the insanity you want to believe.



Bullshit. Every claim of yours that I've fact-checked has been made up. But in this specific case, I asked for evidence that she's been murdering civilians in her Brood Mother orders (hell, I'd ask for evidence that she's been murdering civilians above and beyond what other characters have done, but one thing at a time). This is what's in your article as "evidence":



Lights go dark and absence of evidence. That's your "mountains of evidence". Somehow I remain unconvinced.



Get over yourself. I hated Heart of the Swarm. I think Kerrigan does absolutely nothing to earn her stupid angelic ascension and "redemption". I asked that original question completely expecting you to provide me with an actual case of Kerrigan attacking something that wasn't a Dominion military target. Your position was so staggeringly dishonest that I had to refute it.



So now it's about fitting a narrative and no longer about "It's in the game therefore it happened? -_-"



Fascinating how you went from "Kerrigan make efforts to save civilians in those places she's attacking" to "other people make plenty of efforts to save civilians they are trying to protect". Almost like you expected me not to notice. But no, Kerrigan is still one of only two people to have made a deliberate effort to avoid civilian deaths.



It's simple. The Sons of Korhal unleashed the Zerg upon Tarsonis. Raynor and Kerrigan remained members of the Sons of Korhal despite this act. This is much, more evil than anything you have demonstrated Kerrigan doing to the Dominion in Heart of the Swarm.



Outright lie. Those wounded were going to get slaughtered by the Zerg and she spared them.



I would have assumed that "this is an RTS wargame, not a stealth assassination game" would be relevant to why problems are solved with real-time strategy wars and not stealth assassinations. But hey, you hate that StarCraft II was about large scale conflict, that's fine.



It's not, it's an argument that you're being completely irrational in blaming her for things you are completely fine with others doing.



Tell me when Kerrigan killed civilians. Your entire argument is "Kerrigan used the Zerg to attack Dominion military assets. Can you prove that no civilians were harmed in those? Therefore she is a satan."

I told you earlier, absence of evidence doesn't allow you to assume whatever you wish.

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That's another thing. Gradius refuses to admit that the attack on Korhal in WOL was a lightning raid. Yes they set up bases. But their objective was not to take the planet so much as to upload the information on Mengsk's war crimes and than get the hell out. They weren't doing what Kerrigan was doing in Heart (i.e try to land a large force on the planet and overwhelm the defenses the world brought to bare). Also, Kerrigan had to use her brood mothers leviathans to keep the Dominion from bringing in reinforcements during the final battle, while the swarm itself was vastly weakened after Char. Kerrigan's swarm was nowhere near as powerful as it was during the opening stages of the war, and Mengsk still had military firepower. As such Kerrigan attacking places like the shipyard makes sense.

Kerrigan spared those prisoners because she was forced to acknowledge what she was doing. Overall yes Heart is better than Brood War in terms of Kerrigan's evolution. Fanboys kind of need to admit that Brood War wasn't really that good.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

One planet that Mengsk recalled all his forces to, so destroying those forces while they're separated makes the defense weaker. According to the wiki, there were about three months between Arcturus' first attack against Kerrigan and his death, that's a lot of military hardware Arcturus can get from multiple planets' worth of production in that time. Your "one planet" premise is wrong. She was fighting the entire might of the Terran Dominion.

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It doesn't take 3 months to destroy a planet. Mengsk recalled all his forces to Korhal anyway, so the idea that smashing random out-of-the-way planets would "make the defenses weaker" is nonsense.

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Why would I? It's completely irrelevant.

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Find a more accurate analogy then. You're telling me Kerrigan is obligated to kill millions of people because Mengsk tried to kill her. Only a psychopath would sacrifice millions of others to save themselves. I'd pick a life on the run over that any day.

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Razing a bunch of innocent planets makes you the incarnation of evil.

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Fixed.

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Raynor and Fenix should've run from the UED in Brood War then. They all should've run from the Confederacy in Rebel Yell. And what of Tassadar, Fenix and Zeratul's truly evil decision to return to Aiur and fight the Conclave?

Even by your inane standards there's nothing novel here.

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Those groups were screwing over more than just one person. They were fighting for more than themselves or pretty revenge against one person. Got any more false analogies?

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Tassadar is only guilty of repeated planetary genocides, not a truly heinous crime like destroying an enemy military outpost! Only the most irrational minds would find people who commit horrible crimes guilty if they were ordered to do so.

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Since the repeated logic of Tassadar following orders to contain the infestation and save more lives won't sink in with you, maybe I can appeal to your emotions?

What would you take? A purification beam? Or being eviscerated by a zerg hydralisk's claws? I'd take the purification beam any day. Because the latter is what would happen if Tassadar did nothing. I'd much rather be a civilian on a planet that Tassadar attacked than one Kerrigan attacked.

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Said Kerrigan, who spends all of Brood War being honest.

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He can think for himself:

"You've studied their history, you know I'm right Jim"

Project Purification ring any bells?

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Of course. Being at war with the Dominion is no excuse for killing Dominion troops. Being at war with the UED fully excuses killing Morians because stealing their stuff is easier than mining it yourself.

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Raynor didn't start the war. Kerrigan is singlehandedly responsible for doing so.

Faaaalse Anaaaloooogyyyy! :0

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Ah, so you are asserting that the entire planet got covered in creep before Ryloth even got the time to receive her orders. Very well, if that's the insanity you want to believe.

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Do you get what a time lapse is? I don't want to have to insult both of our intelligences again and have to explain it a second time.

There was also a time lapse in the baneling evolution missions showcasing lava cycles and in the roach mission as well.

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Bullshit. Every claim of yours that I've fact-checked has been made up.

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It sounds like you haven't fact-checked shit. Gave up several cinematics in as per your own admission.

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But in this specific case, I asked for evidence that she's been murdering civilians in her Brood Mother orders (hell, I'd ask for evidence that she's been murdering civilians above and beyond what other characters have done, but one thing at a time). This is what's in your article as "evidence":

Lights go dark and absence of evidence. That's your "mountains of evidence". Somehow I remain unconvinced.

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So what the hell happened to the lights? "Oh shit, zerg are here, let's turn our lights off"?

It's pretty damning and obvious evidence. Remind me again what evidence you have that civilians were spared in these instance? Oh right, absolutely nothing.

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I asked that original question completely expecting you to provide me with an actual case of Kerrigan attacking something that wasn't a Dominion military target. Your position was so staggeringly dishonest that I had to refute it.

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Play the bloody game. Kaldir itself is a confirmed colony where you kill confirmed colonists. And Kerrigan already knew in advance there'd be protoss there. There are damaged apartment buildings, roads, and signs in the screenshot I keep showing you of the planet that Kerrigan is invading. The massive hypocrisy that must go into calling me dishonest should be mind numbing.

It's fine if you disagree with my position, but incessantly regurgitating "you have no evidence" after multiple explicit references from the game is either full-blown confirmation bias or blatant dishonesty.

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So now it's about fitting a narrative and no longer about "It's in the game therefore it happened? -_-"

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Everyone saw the planet get engulfed in creep. Sorry, didn't kill any civilians on my playthrough. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Fascinating how you went from "Kerrigan make efforts to save civilians in those places she's attacking" to "other people make plenty of efforts to save civilians they are trying to protect". Almost like you expected me not to notice. But no, Kerrigan is still one of only two people to have made a deliberate effort to avoid civilian deaths.

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Both qualify as "characters in the history of StarCraft to have made a deliberate effort to avoid civilian deaths."

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It's simple. The Sons of Korhal unleashed the Zerg upon Tarsonis. Raynor and Kerrigan remained members of the Sons of Korhal despite this act. This is much, more evil than anything you have demonstrated Kerrigan doing to the Dominion in Heart of the Swarm.

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What did you expect some official resignation from Raynor who's in a position to do jack crap? Saying he "enjoyed a victory" is blatant dishonesty when he rebels the very next mission at a time when he gains nothing from doing so.

Kerrigan is delusional and holds out hope that he'll come around. Delusional =/= evil.

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Outright lie. Those wounded were going to get slaughtered by the Zerg and she spared them.

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Yes, her zerg. It's like walking into a police station, shooting up the place, leaving bodies everywhere, and then asking for credit because you spared two cops at the end who were too injured to ever be a threat to you. Completely idiotic.

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I would have assumed that "this is an RTS wargame, not a stealth assassination game" would be relevant to why problems are solved with real-time strategy wars and not stealth assassinations. But hey, you hate that StarCraft II was about large scale conflict, that's fine.

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Or Blizzard could have easily solved the problem by not giving Kerrigan her humanity back, and then we wouldn't hold her to better moral standards than the BW queen of blades.

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It's not, it's an argument that you're being completely irrational in blaming her for things you are completely fine with others doing.

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Nothing you've brought is on par the same scale and culpability as Kerrigan's actions in HoTS. In HoTS she isn't following anyone's orders, and knows full well that she'll have to kill millions of people because of her actions. The only person she's fighting for is herself, and she has an option to not do so.

Furthermore, there's such a complete lack of evidence in SC1 that any culpability you're imagining can easily have multiple explanations. In SC2 we have the confirmed killings of a protoss colony, experimentation on living beings, destruction on a planetary scale, etc.

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Tell me when Kerrigan killed civilians. Your entire argument is "Kerrigan used the Zerg to attack Dominion military assets. Can you prove that no civilians were harmed in those? Therefore she is a satan."

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http://imageshack.us/a/img594/3796/cruxas3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/h3XlNLQ.jpg
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Jontur_II
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Mistaff_IV
Proof that civilians live in military industrial complexes in SC: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/lor...-performance/1

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I told you earlier, absence of evidence doesn't allow you to assume whatever you wish.

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Translation: I can't be bothered to provide evidence to substantiate my bullshit opinion, and will continue trying to shift burden of proof to you so that I don't have to! :D

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Originally Posted by DarthYam

Kerrigan's swarm was nowhere near as powerful as it was during the opening stages of the war, and Mengsk still had military firepower. As such Kerrigan attacking places like the shipyard makes sense.

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Kerrigan built up the swarm over 4 years on Char without attacking anybody, but now she needs ship yards and innocent civilians to eat? No, not buying it.

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Kerrigan spared those prisoners because she was forced to acknowledge what she was doing. Overall yes Heart is better than Brood War in terms of Kerrigan's evolution. Fanboys kind of need to admit that Brood War wasn't really that good.

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BW was pretty bad compared to Vanilla. Still better than the trainwreck that was HoTS. This is pretty much unanimously agreed upon at any Blizzard forum.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

It doesn't take 3 months to destroy a planet.

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Is there a point to this?

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Mengsk recalled all his forces to Korhal anyway, so the idea that smashing random out-of-the-way planets would "make the defenses weaker" is nonsense.

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Those were destroyed before the assault on Korhal.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Find a more accurate analogy then.

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No, I'm not doing your job for you. Argue your own position.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

You're telling me Kerrigan is obligated to kill millions of people because Mengsk tried to kill her. Only a psychopath would sacrifice millions of others to save themselves. I'd pick a life on the run over that any day.

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Maybe those people shouldn't be fighting to eradicate the mad dictator's enemies.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Fixed.

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Planets are not innocent, they're things.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Those groups were screwing over more than just one person. They were fighting for more than themselves or pretty revenge against one person. Got any more false analogies?

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Mengsk and the Terran Dominion only ever screwed over one person? Is this a joke?

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Since the repeated logic of Tassadar following orders to contain the infestation and save more lives won't sink in with you, maybe I can appeal to your emotions?

What would you take? A purification beam? Or being eviscerated by a zerg hydralisk's claws? I'd take the purification beam any day. Because the latter is what would happen if Tassadar did nothing. I'd much rather be a civilian on a planet that Tassadar attacked than one Kerrigan attacked.

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You have no evidence that Tassadar's repeated planetary genocides saved lives. But let's toss you a bone and pretend they did. In disobeying those orders on Tarsonis, Tassadar is responsible for the creation of Infested Kerrigan, and therefore all the crimes she did, plus all the atrocities committed by the Zerg when the infestation went uncontained, and for all the Protoss who died on Aiur. So you're still going nowhere.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

He can think for himself:

"You've studied their history, you know I'm right Jim"

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To which he literally answers "Maybe, I don't know". Solid confirmation there.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Project Purification ring any bells?

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I don't remember it being worst than what Mengsk did on Tarsonis.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Raynor didn't start the war. Kerrigan is singlehandedly responsible for doing so.

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Kerrigan "singlehandedly started the war" by ordering Mengsk's Dominion forces to attack her on a Umojan planet. Of course. Your lies grow ever more desperate.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Do you get what a time lapse is? I don't want to have to insult both of our intelligences again and have to explain it a second time.

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Yes. Do you understand what symbolism is? Can you provide evidence that what you claim happened is what happened?

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Originally Posted by Gradius

It sounds like you haven't fact-checked shit. Gave up several cinematics in as per your own admission.

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Fact checked Zergling, Baneling and Hydralisk evolution missions and the Ryloth Brood Mother conversation. I mean, it's possible that it just so happens that all the ones I verified were the ones you were inventing bullshit about, but that's not my problem. You should've stuck with things that were actually true.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

So what the hell happened to the lights? "Oh shit, zerg are here, let's turn our lights off"?

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How should I know? Power failure? Evacuation? Symbolism? Those things aren't city lights at all? You're the one making the assertion, you're the one who needs to support it. Once again, you're resorting to "well, since we don,t know what happened, whatever I want must be true!" And that's not how evidence works.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

There are damaged apartment buildings, roads, and signs in the screenshot I keep showing you of the planet that Kerrigan is invading.

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So? Cities are off-limits? Again, Raynor and Fenix attacked cities. Tassadar destroyed a bunch of them.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

It's fine if you disagree with my position, but incessantly regurgitating "you have no evidence" after multiple explicit references from the game is either full-blown confirmation bias or blatant dishonesty.

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"Multiple explicit references". Right. That's exactly what I'm asking for. An explicit reference in the game of Kerrigan attacking civilians. Give it to me. 'Cause there are two actual explicit scenes of Kerrigan deciding to spare civilians, and one of her sparing wounded military personnel. So I'm expecting something at least as good. So far you've given me lights getting dimmed and Zerg fighting in a city. That's not in the same league at all.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Everyone saw the planet get engulfed in creep. Sorry, didn't kill any civilians on my playthrough. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Planets are not people. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Both qualify as "characters in the history of StarCraft to have made a deliberate effort to avoid civilian deaths."

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Not in the context you're arguing they're not. But it's obvious that double standards are entirely necessary to your argument. Kerrigan is one of only two characters to have ever made a deliberate effort to avoid civilian deaths among those she was attacking. Do the extra words help? Can you find other reasons to avoid the truth?

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Originally Posted by Gradius

What did you expect some official resignation from Raynor who's in a position to do jack crap? Saying he "enjoyed a victory" is blatant dishonesty when he rebels the very next mission at a time when he gains nothing from doing so.

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He rebelled because of New Gettysburg, not The Big Push. That, apparently was enough for him to leave the Sons of Korhal. But unleashing the Zerg on Tarsonis was not. What did I expect? I expected him to do what he does one mission later.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Kerrigan is delusional and holds out hope that he'll come around. Delusional =/= evil.

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Unleashing the Zerg on Terran planets is not evil if you've got some sort of psychological excuse? So you'll retract everything you said about Kerrigan in Heart of the Swarm if it happens that she was not in perfect psychological condition?

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Yes, her zerg. It's like walking into a police station, shooting up the place, leaving bodies everywhere, and then asking for credit because you spared two cops at the end who were too injured to ever be a threat to you. Completely idiotic.

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Bullshit. The Dominion attacked her first. Those were enemy soldiers engaged in war against her Zerg. They refused to leave even though they were invading her home. And yet she spared them.

How does it go? Oh, right: "Faaaalse Anaaaloooogyyyy! :0"

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Or Blizzard could have easily solved the problem by not giving Kerrigan her humanity back, and then we wouldn't hold her to better moral standards than the BW queen of blades.

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I'm just expecting you to hold her to the same standards as legendary hero Tassadar or "lone good man" Jim Raynor.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Nothing you've brought is on par the same scale and culpability as Kerrigan's actions in HoTS.

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So far, all you've demonstrated is that she destroyed some Dominion military resources. Everything I've brought is worse than that except the attack on Braxis, which is roughly on par except that the Protoss are not being attacked by the Dominion.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

http://imageshack.us/a/img594/3796/cruxas3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/h3XlNLQ.jpg
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Jontur_II
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Mistaff_IV
Proof that civilians live in military industrial complexes in SC: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/lor...-performance/1

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So, 404, irrelevant Protoss stuff, Dominion shipyard and military production hub. What are you expecting to get by linking me those? Did you read them? The Mistaff link tells us two things about the planet before it was attacked: it is in the Koprulu Sector and it is a hub for Dominion military production. Jontur's is shorter but similar. This is exactly what I keep telling you they are.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Translation: I can't be bothered to provide evidence to substantiate my bullshit opinion, and will continue trying to shift burden of proof to you so that I don't have to! :D

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Seems accurate.

Wait, wait wait. Or do you think that you can write any bullshit you like and it's true until proven otherwise? Because that's the opposite of the burden of proof. You claim that she was targeting civilians (above and beyond what other good characters have done). I disbelieve your claim. Prove it.

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Originally Posted by DarthYam

That's another thing. Gradius refuses to admit that the attack on Korhal in WOL was a lightning raid. Yes they set up bases. But their objective was not to take the planet so much as to upload the information on Mengsk's war crimes and than get the hell out. They weren't doing what Kerrigan was doing in Heart (i.e try to land a large force on the planet and overwhelm the defenses the world brought to bare). Also, Kerrigan had to use her brood mothers leviathans to keep the Dominion from bringing in reinforcements during the final battle, while the swarm itself was vastly weakened after Char. Kerrigan's swarm was nowhere near as powerful as it was during the opening stages of the war, and Mengsk still had military firepower. As such Kerrigan attacking places like the shipyard makes sense.

Kerrigan spared those prisoners because she was forced to acknowledge what she was doing. Overall yes Heart is better than Brood War in terms of Kerrigan's evolution. Fanboys kind of need to admit that Brood War wasn't really that good.

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And this is EXACTLY why the Industrial worlds were considered unfortunate, but necessary. Because even then, Kerrigan still felt the Dominion military was a threat. This goes back to what happened at the end of WoL, as Raynor's command allowed them to hold out for so long before the artifact was even assembled.

However as for sparing those prisoners, tell me something DarthYam: if Warfield didn't mention Raynor, you think she would have done so?

Pfft, I get accused of cowardice for not participating in text walls? Yeesh, look at this page. Well, not that it isn't a fine debate.

In any case, Gradius, I don't think there's any evidence of a UED/Morian alliance. Unless there's some alternate source (a novel?) which states this as the case, it seems out of nowhere. BW doesn't provide a shred of context for it. If you're referring to the fact that Mengsk was targeted by the UED while the Morians were left alone, there's no reason why that couldn't have been due to things like potential Dominion weakness, or they wanted Dominion tech. Or perhaps the Dominion was still the strongest of the three main K Sector governments, and that by getting the Dominion, they could make the others cow. I personally feel that it was Mengsk's arrogance and self-service that made the UED feel justified in destroying him first, given that they are a highly arrogant bunch who come into the sector and think they can solve all its problems.

Long story short, where'd you get the idea?

Also, I question your Japanese civilian metaphor. Terrans aren't Zerg civilians. In fact, it's more like a hostage situation. You've got a building full of both enemies and people who have nothing to do with the conflict in question. Is it really justified to bomb the building, without even trying to rescue the hostages?

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Originally Posted by Gradius

It doesn't take 3 months to destroy a planet. Mengsk recalled all his forces to Korhal anyway, so the idea that smashing random out-of-the-way planets would "make the defenses weaker" is nonsense.


Find a more accurate analogy then. You're telling me Kerrigan is obligated to kill millions of people because Mengsk tried to kill her. Only a psychopath would sacrifice millions of others to save themselves. I'd pick a life on the run over that any day.


Fixed.


Those groups were screwing over more than just one person. They were fighting for more than themselves or pretty revenge against one person. Got any more false analogies?


Since the repeated logic of Tassadar following orders to contain the infestation and save more lives won't sink in with you, maybe I can appeal to your emotions?

What would you take? A purification beam? Or being eviscerated by a zerg hydralisk's claws? I'd take the purification beam any day. Because the latter is what would happen if Tassadar did nothing. I'd much rather be a civilian on a planet that Tassadar attacked than one Kerrigan attacked.


He can think for himself:

"You've studied their history, you know I'm right Jim"

Project Purification ring any bells?


Raynor didn't start the war. Kerrigan is singlehandedly responsible for doing so.

Faaaalse Anaaaloooogyyyy! :0


Do you get what a time lapse is? I don't want to have to insult both of our intelligences again and have to explain it a second time.

There was also a time lapse in the baneling evolution missions showcasing lava cycles and in the roach mission as well.


It sounds like you haven't fact-checked shit. Gave up several cinematics in as per your own admission.


So what the hell happened to the lights? "Oh shit, zerg are here, let's turn our lights off"?

It's pretty damning and obvious evidence. Remind me again what evidence you have that civilians were spared in these instance? Oh right, absolutely nothing.


Play the bloody game. Kaldir itself is a confirmed colony where you kill confirmed colonists. And Kerrigan already knew in advance there'd be protoss there. There are damaged apartment buildings, roads, and signs in the screenshot I keep showing you of the planet that Kerrigan is invading. The massive hypocrisy that must go into calling me dishonest should be mind numbing.

It's fine if you disagree with my position, but incessantly regurgitating "you have no evidence" after multiple explicit references from the game is either full-blown confirmation bias or blatant dishonesty.


Everyone saw the planet get engulfed in creep. Sorry, didn't kill any civilians on my playthrough. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Both qualify as "characters in the history of StarCraft to have made a deliberate effort to avoid civilian deaths."


What did you expect some official resignation from Raynor who's in a position to do jack crap? Saying he "enjoyed a victory" is blatant dishonesty when he rebels the very next mission at a time when he gains nothing from doing so.

Kerrigan is delusional and holds out hope that he'll come around. Delusional =/= evil.


Yes, her zerg. It's like walking into a police station, shooting up the place, leaving bodies everywhere, and then asking for credit because you spared two cops at the end who were too injured to ever be a threat to you. Completely idiotic.


Or Blizzard could have easily solved the problem by not giving Kerrigan her humanity back, and then we wouldn't hold her to better moral standards than the BW queen of blades.


Nothing you've brought is on par the same scale and culpability as Kerrigan's actions in HoTS. In HoTS she isn't following anyone's orders, and knows full well that she'll have to kill millions of people because of her actions. The only person she's fighting for is herself, and she has an option to not do so.

Furthermore, there's such a complete lack of evidence in SC1 that any culpability you're imagining can easily have multiple explanations. In SC2 we have the confirmed killings of a protoss colony, experimentation on living beings, destruction on a planetary scale, etc.


http://imageshack.us/a/img594/3796/cruxas3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/h3XlNLQ.jpg
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Jontur_II
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Mistaff_IV
Proof that civilians live in military industrial complexes in SC: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/lor...-performance/1


Translation: I can't be bothered to provide evidence to substantiate my bullshit opinion, and will continue trying to shift burden of proof to you so that I don't have to! :D


Kerrigan built up the swarm over 4 years on Char without attacking anybody, but now she needs ship yards and innocent civilians to eat? No, not buying it.


BW was pretty bad compared to Vanilla. Still better than the trainwreck that was HoTS. This is pretty much unanimously agreed upon at any Blizzard forum.

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Appeal to popularity fallacy. Those people largely grew up with Brood War so of course they're going to be biased.

Also you ignore that in the aftermath of Char most of the Zerg swarm was wiped out since they fought each other in deep space. The brood mothers just control the few lucky enough to survive. They're nowhere near as strong as they were at the start thanks to the infighting. In that case yes Kerrigan was weaker.

Nissa, FanaticTemplar provided clear proof that Tassadar wasn't penitent and that he didn't really change a lot. That's why I called you a coward. He provided very clear points and you were like LALALALALALALALA I'M NOT LISTENING LA LA LA LA LA LA LA!!!!!!"

Oh what glorious walls of text!

Getting a distinct vibe with the Grad and FT headbutting that the problem is in regards to how one should treat circumstantial evidence and how far you can draw conclusions from it. All this quibbling about Kerrigan killing or not killing civilians and whether that makes her worse doesn't get around the fact that the story in HotS doesn't neatly explain why Kerrigan must attack so many alternate targets (with potentially considerable collateral damage) when her one true goal is just killing Mengsk (who is nowhere else but on Korhal the whole time) and use her true human skill (which she has now recovered along with her supposed "humanity") which is to attempt assasination instead? If we can only answer this with "well, the conceit is that this is an RTS game", that's the wrong answer since it is meaningless and has no in-universe value.

Also, the issue at hand seems to be stemming from Sc2's heavy-handed use of protagonist-centred morality. Dissonance occurs when a character is made out to be so justified and of good intent in their actions that everything they do is seemingly morally correct, no matter how potentially heinous an action may be (it's a problem of the author not being able to distance themselves from the character). It's moral blindness being presented as moral responsibility. Whether Kerrigan actually kills civilians or not specifically is irrelevent to the distinct possibility that her actions in HotS could've possibly involved many and unnecessary deaths.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Now that's an interesting set of assumptions. I've been wondering about the role of Magistrate for a while, and what it meant exactly. Mar Sara's Magistrate was sent to keep the colony pacified after the panic caused by the destruction of Chau Sara. I've always been curious as to where he was from, the role of planetary governor would imply someone influential within the Confederacy, but later missions disprove that, and Duke calls him a 'fringe world yokel' so he's apparently not some Confederate aristocrat being given his own planet.

EDIT: The point was that I can't accept your assumptions about what a Magistrate is, because I haven't really decided what a Magistrate is :p.

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Does it really matter that we have to know the specific role that the title "Magistrate" entails? I wouldn't think so because in-universe, the characters would know and that's enough for the audience to make assumptions since we don't know any better. It's obvious that being a "Magistrate" has to involve some form of authority over other people or at the least, doing something with a fair number of people. You'd expect that someone who has a role involving the direction (or whatever) of people to, at the least, care for people in order to be doing that job, right? What's wrong with making that assumption? All in all, Mengsk treating the "Magistrate" the way he does could just as easily be him making assumptions on what a Magistrate would probably be like and nothing to do with reading the specific person that was the PC's Magistrate.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Raynor couldn't have had a savior-complex for Kerrigan before he lost her, since the guilt over that failure is the source of that issue.

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...and Mengsk couldn't have determined that Raynor had a saviour-complex after witnessing what happened in True Colours either. Are you sure you're not just assuming too much from one quote? I know I do it all the time! Seems to me like Mengsk's "good at reading people" ability is just informed ability like his "master of propaganda" ability.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Also, I completely disagree with your interpretation of Arcturus. Leaving Kerrigan and her forces behind wasn't purely utilitarian - we've seen him fly in to evacuate Zerg-assaulted locations before in Desperate Alliance, and a strike force large enough to fight off Tassadar's Koprulu Expedition is far more valuable than some Mar Saran colonists. Nor was his speech to Raynor utilitarian either - that whole seeds/reaping metaphor is pure vacuous hogwash.

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Disagree away. I'm more enamored of the idea of it being an interesting interpretation than fully believing it to be a concrete and unassailable profile of Mengsk. It's hard to know what Mengsk is actually thinking because we can only assume things based on his actions. It's difficult to know how big his forces were before recruiting Duke. Who knows, maybe Mengsk was recruiting an army by starting small and going to Confederate abandoned worlds. As to the speech about his new Empire being vacuous hogwash, yeah sure, I can accept that since the morality of utilitarianism in general gets a lot of the same type of heat anyway.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

She wasn't there to help him when Tassadar and the Dark Templar came for him, was she?

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That's an unreasonable question to ask. The Overmind on Aiur was only in real danger at the end of The Shadow Hunters. It was already overconfident by the end of the Overmind campaign and we are given no indication it would suddenly fear the Protoss. Based on that, we have to infer the Overmind saw no need to bring Kerrigan across. It didn't then, it didn't now. Afterall, the Protoss have been able to kill cerebrates before but it probably didn't register until this particular instance where it couldn't resurrect them. By then it was too late, the Protoss had already laid siege to the Overmind itself and was destroyed. You might as well start blaming the Overmind for not being omniscient or being the god it acts like while you're at it.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

And even by that argument, Zeratul's band aren't the only Dark Templar out there.

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So what, you're advocating the Overmind not do anything at all because there could be Dark Templar potentially anywhere and everywhere? That's unreasonable. You might as well say, "Don't take any risks in life at all!"

Besides, who knows what other information the Overmind was able to glean from Zeratul. It probably found out not only the location of Aiur but also that there were no Dark Templar there nor expect them to be there anytime soon. Whatever the case, Char was more dangerous due to the presence of Dark Templar in that immediate moment than it was compared to Aiur.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

But regardless, the reason I keep bringing it up is because it doesn't fit. The Overmind despaired of overcoming the Protoss based on the memories of the Xel'naga because the Protoss had become a highly psionic race able to bend and warp the very fabric of reality to their whims. The Xel'naga wouldn't even have known of the Dark Templar at the time. I accept the "Oh, she was hunting the Dark Templar" because it's the best explanation, not because it's a good one.

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You're clinging onto the notion that the Overmind will always be in despair and that it can't change based on new information that comes to light/event that occur. For all we know, it stopped despairing when it found and successfully birthed Infested Kerrigan. It could've stopped when it found out that "regular" Protoss can't do squat against his cerebrates, only against it's lesser more numerable and easily replaceable minions. It became over-confident not only because it finally had the psionic potential in was looking for but that she was gaining some measure success over the only real immediate danger to the Zerg and that it could launch a surprise direct assault on the unsuspecting Protoss homeworld. If you don't want to buy that then maybe a slightly risk-averse reason could be that the Overmind just decided to make a tactical decision to do it the way we see in Sc1 because it didn't want an extremely dangerous loose end that could snipe them at any time whilst it was fully committed/all-in.

Anyways, even if Kerrigan did go with the Overmind to Aiur, there's no guarantee that it's ultimate fate wouldn't still be the same. Kerrigan did fail to remove the actual and eventual cause of the Overmind's death when given the chance in Sc1, afterall, why is it suddenly not a possibility if Kerrigan went with the Overmind to Aiur still? People tend to think it was an error that Overmind attacked Aiur without Kerrigan thinking that it wouldn't have died or completely defeated the Protoss if it did. That's just silly to me since that notion has to deny any agency the Protoss would have had on that outcome whatsoever.