Shame. But then, that's a normal drawback.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Printable View
Shame. But then, that's a normal drawback.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
So this thread reminds me of my old Legacy of the Xel'Naga project. I still have the story notes kicking around, if anyone's interested in hearing my alternate StarCraft II story? Fair warning, will require multiple posts.
To jog your memory, this is the project that had six terran tech trees, four zerg and five protoss, plus hybrid. Aim high in life and watch out for flying boxes!
Give us a brief look of it first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muspelli
First campaign was Dominion, concerning their perspective in Queen of Blades, then a later war with KMC and alliance with Umoja. Ends with Warfield, the PC, meeting Zeratul at a Hybrid lab.
Second campaign was Zeratul as the Nerazim faction, working to defeat Ulrezaj and the first awakened hybrid on Shakuras. Whole campaign on Shakuras and a few colonies, yet got pretty intense plot-wise, if I recall. Will find my plot notebook in a bit.
Third campaign was Raynor, taking place concurrent with the ending of Zeratul. Starts on Mar Sara, concerns Tosh, a Confederate assassin, forming a Raiders/Confederacy alliance to take down Mengsk. I had the most done on this, including a jotnote dialogue note section, and it would have concerned Raynor assassinating Mengsk in cold-blood, who in this fanon was trying his best to be a benign dictator. In short, Raynor's descent into antivillainy. Ended with a showdown with Kerrigan, Mengsk's assassination being midway.
- - - Updated - - -
First campaign was Dominion, concerning their perspective in Queen of Blades, then a later war with KMC and alliance with Umoja. Ends with Warfield, the PC, meeting Zeratul at a Hybrid lab.
Second campaign was Zeratul as the Nerazim faction, working to defeat Ulrezaj and the first awakened hybrid on Shakuras. Whole campaign on Shakuras and a few colonies, yet got pretty intense plot-wise, if I recall. Will find my plot notebook in a bit.
Third campaign was Raynor, taking place concurrent with the ending of Zeratul. Starts on Mar Sara, concerns Tosh, a Confederate assassin, forming a Raiders/Confederacy alliance to take down Mengsk. I had the most done on this, including a jotnote dialogue note section, and it would have concerned Raynor assassinating Mengsk in cold-blood, who in this fanon was trying his best to be a benign dictator. In short, Raynor's descent into antivillainy. Ended with a showdown with Kerrigan, Mengsk's assassination being midway.
I'm not sure about all that. The mission sets don't really feel related enough. Well, speaking as someone who obviously hasn't read your detailed stuff.
I suggest giving Zeratul a minimal role. Someone here (I forget who) mentioned they like Zeratul better as a mysterious character, and the guy's personality is geared more toward leading himself or small groups of highly skilled individuals, rather than large groups of Protoss. Or was that your plan?
...And, well, I have to say this. I really like Mengsk. Not as a person, obviously, but as a fictitious character. He has a strong personality with a great vocabulary and the willingness to do absolutely anything for his purposes. One of my favorite things as a fanfiction writer was writing him and Raynor talking to each other. Thus, I'm against killing him. At least until his character has had a satisfactory arc. He doesn't necessarily need to be redeemed, but it would be ballsy if he showed some kind of regret, if at nothing else than creating his own worst enemy. I'd honestly much rather that Mengsk's activities, rather than Raynor, were the end of him.
Though now that you mention it, the "descent into antivillainy" thing sounds interesting. What's that about?
Hmmm, what has this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muspelli
... got do with this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Muspelli
I don't wish to offend but to offer some constructive criticism. I actually expected minimal Terran stuff (let it be known that I like the Terrans) what with the title you gave. Was that wrong for me to assume? There is a lot of Terran stuff (2 campaigns!) in your version - much like the current Sc2 being pre-occupied with Terran matters (HotS is less about Zerg than it is about a Terran fighting a Terran based on Terran motivations). I can understand the first campaign being a lead-in type affair (what with the Hybrids coming in towards the end) by why is the third campaign (the last one I presume?) about Raynor and not something more related to the Xel'Naga like your title suggests? It seems entirely disconnected/irrelevant (it has this "And now for something else!" feel to it) with what was building up beforehand. I would have expected something more Zerg related (disregarding the fact that I'm biased towards them for the moment that is) since they are supposedly important to any legacy pertaining to the Xel'Naga. Is there a fourth part?Quote:
Originally Posted by Muspelli
That'd be FanaticTemplar in his kick-ass review. Course, it has to be done properly, too. Sc2 has Zeratul in somewhat minimal doses too but the effect is much less effective given the piss-poor dialogue he emits and the overly obvious expository function he serves in those appearances he makes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
It's good to see you brought the KMC back. Those guys needed plenty more mentioning after the Guild Wars...Quote:
Originally Posted by Muspelli
The whole story was a lengthy mess of alliances and foes lolQuote:
Originally Posted by ragnarok
- - - Updated - - -
The whole story was a lengthy mess of alliances and foes lolQuote:
Originally Posted by ragnarok
Well, that's a given. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
One of the things I'd hoped for in a sequel to Starcraft is the rise of the importance of humans. Most of the Terran stuff, even in the original games, is rather trivial when compared to the ambitions of the Zerg or the will of the Xel'Naga. Mengsk is being a powermonger, and the Directorate is being powermongery. It took all of Brood War for Mengsk to realize how serious things were, and the UED probably still doesn't understand all that much about the K Sector.
Naturally, I'd like the missions to go Zerg-Protoss-Terran, as is fitting according to the pattern set by SC and BW. Muspelli, you seem to think so too. In any case, the Zerg missions should be more or less about the Zerg rising up to finally put the rest of the Sector under its thumb, and some event should drive Kerrigan to act. The Protoss, after dealing with much internal drama (which is a given for them at this point), get their act together. Then the Terrans finally get into the main plot, learning whatever they can about the Xel'Naga and how to stop the hybrids.
My preferred end for Mengsk is either that he join up with Raynor one final time but die during that mission, or that he have some strange sort of feeling of responsibility for Kerrigan. Like, maybe the hybrids want her for one reason or another, but Mengsk decides not to abandon her again.
I know what you mean but really, hasn't Sc2 done exactly this? Taste, story-telling and story-direction issues aside, two-thirds of the Sc2 has been taken up by what is essentially (inane and limited though it may be when focusing on specific individuals that is) Terran affairs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
I hear what you're saying. There's enough depth in the Terrans to potentially make up a whole game all on it's own to explore their factional interactions. Pity WoL didn't even remotely touch on this in any significant manner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Don't tell Muspelli what to write in his own story! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
I don't mind the Terran focus and the general outline of it if that's what he wants to do, I'm just getting myself twisted on the title and how that fits with the overall story. If it wasn't for the title and were I just to read the 3 campaign overview, I probably would have thought to replace the Protoss stuff with even more Terran stuff (like a whole KMC or UP campaign - woot!)!
That was just the first half, mind you.
- - - Updated - - -
That was just the first half, mind you.
One, that's not what I meant. I meant that Terran matters are kinda stupid when compared to the powerful drama going on in the Zerg and Protoss missions. What those two races are doing involves the fate of the whole universe, all while the Terrans squabble over who's the biggest boss. The Terrans need to take on a role that has more to do with the fate of the K Sector.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Two, SC2 isn't canon.
:D
While you're technically right, I can't imagine Blizzard wouldn't have messed that up somehow.Quote:
I hear what you're saying. There's enough depth in the Terrans to potentially make up a whole game all on it's own to explore their factional interactions. Pity WoL didn't even remotely touch on this in any significant manner.
Hey, I'm just making suggestions/talking about an SC sequel in general. Muspelli can write what he wants. I'm just going off the basis that if someone did want to write their own SC2 we might all work on it together.Quote:
Don't tell Muspelli what to write in his own story! :D
I don't mind the Terran focus and the general outline of it if that's what he wants to do, I'm just getting myself twisted on the title and how that fits with the overall story. If it wasn't for the title and were I just to read the 3 campaign overview, I probably would have thought to replace the Protoss stuff with even more Terran stuff (like a whole KMC or UP campaign - woot!)!
Well, talk up your ideas. Even if Muspelli doesn't use them, it's at least interesting to talk about.
Ah, but Sc2 has got you there as well hasn't it? Is it not the Terrans who helped reform the Saviour of the Universe (who happens to be another Terran/human when it comes down to it despite the reinfestation) which will then proceed to help stop the Hybrids and Amon from destroying the K sector? Sure, it's kinda oblique and not the real focus of what's happened so far, but Sc2 has definitely increased the role of the Terrans in the fate of the K-sector.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
To me, the Terran's internal squabbles, intrigue and general down-to-earth dirtiness is what characterises the Terrans and what I like most about them. To be fair, the Terrans were originally made out to be the butt-monkeys for both the Zerg and the Protoss and were always tangential to that conflict. That the Terrans go on to suffer massive losses kind of made it difficult for me to ever consider the Terrans being any more important in the wider galactic sense.
Well, I guess that would've depended on if they continued to keep the focus on one character's POV exclusively all the time. I'm sure if the focus was on Terrans in general, it would've come out a lot more differently than how WoL (aka "The Jim Raynor Show") did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
I... I don't have any ideas about a potential sequel. I am my own worst critic - I tend to shoot down my own creative thoughts quite quickly before they get anywhere because they were ultimately staid and just "more of the same"/self-indulgent. For example, I did have an inking of an idea of the Overmind still existing and the greater part of the Swarm still being out there (due to my Zerg bias), but I didn't get much further than that due to the aforementioned reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Eh, any "massive losses" against the Terrans is entirely SC2 territory, and given that we're talking about our own versions of SC2, that doesn't matter. It's at least somewhat open for debate how badly Terrans suffered in SC/BW. Given that much hinges on the presence of the UED and their conquest of Korhal, we can guess that much of Brood War's casualties were of UED/Korhal origin, leaving many Morians and Umojans more or less intact, assuming the UED didn't do anything to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
But as far as what you're saying goes, that's not really a matter of one of us being wrong and the other right. It's just what we'd prefer. Either direction would be fine, were it written well.
Yeah, that was definitely a mistake. As much as I love Raynor, I just can't see the guy in some mass rebellion situation. He's more like a William Wallace, rogue-type hero, than a Robert the Bruce, king/ruler type hero. That, and Starcraft could use some more plot relevant, interesting human characters.Quote:
Well, I guess that would've depended on if they continued to keep the focus on one character's POV exclusively all the time. I'm sure if the focus was on Terrans in general, it would've come out a lot more differently than how WoL (aka "The Jim Raynor Show") did.
Lol, Zerg bias.Quote:
I... I don't have any ideas about a potential sequel. I am my own worst critic - I tend to shoot down my own creative thoughts quite quickly before they get anywhere because they were ultimately staid and just "more of the same"/self-indulgent. For example, I did have an inking of an idea of the Overmind still existing and the greater part of the Swarm still being out there (due to my Zerg bias), but I didn't get much further than that due to the aforementioned reasons.
Nah, go ahead. Indulge yourself. It's all speculation here anyway. Though I'm not sure the Overmind coming back itself would be such a good idea. That already happened in Brood War. However, if there was a renegade cerebrate attempting to defeat Kerrigan, then hey, that could definitely work. There's no evidence she killed all of them, only that she took over the vast majority of the swarm. Also, if you could create some kind of Zerg unit that would replace the brood mother (gag), then that would be amazing.
Oh ho, no! The massive losses I was referring to was specifically in the era of Sc1/BW. It is quite specific that 9 of the 13 Terran worlds have been laid to waste by Zerg during the events of Sc1. Whilst the Dominion arose from this and unified the remaining forces of these worlds, are they still any match to a force that wrecked them when they were at the strongest (Zerg) or a native species who have been living there for many centuries and boast more firepower than them (Protoss)? This isn't even taking into account that this Dominion than proceeded to get trashed by another Terran force which then get trashed in return. The net effect is the Terrans are much, much weaker (now in actuality) than when they started out to be (when it was just initially "potentially" the weakest of the 3 races). Sure, one can say the Protoss and Zerg went on to weaken themselves but are they as crippled as the Terrans are or to the extent that they are now equal in terms of strength? Hard to say but given the Protoss and Zerg are (in the lore) more than a match for the Terrans when they were all in their prime, it's hard to say the Terrans ever really stood a chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Sc2 just kind of retcons the power level and numbers of the Terrans such that the plot can have them suffer some more losses. :D
That's quite interesting. If you look at the majority of what happens in WoL prosaically, Raynor actually doesn't really achieve much in terms of the "rebellion" side of things and is very much a rogue throughout despite the games preponderance to elevate every mission's success as some testament to Raynor's greatness and heroicism. It becomes a bit overboard, but surprisingly more suitable, when he goes to rescue Kerrigan since that particular feat is perhaps the one thing that is worthy of all the adulation that WoL likes to heap on Raynor. I could go on for hours about this - but I've done so previously, so I won't indulge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
As I said, I usually shoot down my own ideas (just like you said, the Overmind thing has been done already) before they became anything, so that's really all I had. I'm usually more interested in the things behind the scenes of what already happened and expanding and offering explanations of things that weren't clear in the current iteration than thinking up of directions of a sequel. If I had to force a sequel idea right now, it would be a bland and somewhat cynical extension of what came before anyway. Here goes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Kerrigan loses her mind and eventually goes out to kill everyone with the Zerg. The extended Zerg Swarm/Overmind finally arrive in the sector and proceed to attack everyone at the same time. The Overmind quickly subdues Kerrigan, then turns its attention on the Protoss and Terrans. The Hybrids then appear and seem to attack only the Zerg exclusively - they leave the Terrans and Protoss alone, allowing them to aid the Hybrids combat the entire Zerg Swarm. The Zerg are eventually rendered inert and the Hybrids then turn to the Protoss defeating them and then start processing the Zerg and Protoss to create more Hybrids. The Terrans do not aid the Protoss and are left alone by the Hybrids because they are insignificant. Being the only ones left, they soon continue doing what they do best (trying to top-dog each other). The end. See, not very good is it? :p
That said, I'm always open to other people's ideas and your one there is an interesting one to ponder like how did this renegade cerebrate came to be and how did it escape Kerrigan's grip over the Zerg? I take it that cerebrates can continue to exist even without an Overmind? It sounds a bit like FT's proposed idea for remaking BW, where he actually has Kerrigan and Daggoth pitted against each other for control over the Zerg.
[QUOTE=Turalyon;196482]That's quite interesting. If you look at the majority of what happens in WoL prosaically, Raynor actually doesn't really achieve much in terms of the "rebellion" side of things and is very much a rogue throughout despite the games preponderance to elevate every mission's success as some testament to Raynor's greatness and heroicism. It becomes a bit overboard, but surprisingly more suitable, when he goes to rescue Kerrigan since that particular feat is perhaps the one thing that is worthy of all the adulation that WoL likes to heap on Raynor. I could go on for hours about this - but I've done so previously, so I won't indulge.[/quote
Yeah, any time they try to force Raynor into a revolutionary role, I just cringe. Raynor isn't idealistic enough to be a revolutionary. He just does what he thinks is right.
Well, I just want some cerebrate characters. They were interesting in that they were very efficient about being evil, and the idea of their relentless conquest versus Kerrigan's emotionally driven revenge-fest was a conflict that was never used enough.Quote:
As I said, I usually shoot down my own ideas (just like you said, the Overmind thing has been done already) before they became anything, so that's really all I had. I'm usually more interested in the things behind the scenes of what already happened and expanding and offering explanations of things that weren't clear in the current iteration than thinking up of directions of a sequel. If I had to force a sequel idea right now, it would be a bland and somewhat cynical extension of what came before anyway. Here goes:
Kerrigan loses her mind and eventually goes out to kill everyone with the Zerg. The extended Zerg Swarm/Overmind finally arrive in the sector and proceed to attack everyone at the same time. The Overmind quickly subdues Kerrigan, then turns its attention on the Protoss and Terrans. The Hybrids then appear and seem to attack only the Zerg exclusively - they leave the Terrans and Protoss alone, allowing them to aid the Hybrids combat the entire Zerg Swarm. The Zerg are eventually rendered inert and the Hybrids then turn to the Protoss defeating them and then start processing the Zerg and Protoss to create more Hybrids. The Terrans do not aid the Protoss and are left alone by the Hybrids because they are insignificant. Being the only ones left, they soon continue doing what they do best (trying to top-dog each other). The end. See, not very good is it? :p
That said, I'm always open to other people's ideas and your one there is an interesting one to ponder like how did this renegade cerebrate came to be and how did it escape Kerrigan's grip over the Zerg? I take it that cerebrates can continue to exist even without an Overmind? It sounds a bit like FT's proposed idea for remaking BW, where he actually has Kerrigan and Daggoth pitted against each other for control over the Zerg.
My head-canon about the hybrids was that they were intent on improving the universe, and that the Protoss were failures for not having followed the Dae'Uhl to the letter, as "superior species must care for the inferior." They even have the power to turn dead, rocky planets into places teeming with life. So the hybrids intend to create a "paradise" where all live in peace and the dissidents are dead.
The timing around BW would have been a good opportunity explore this had they not just rushed into just having the remaining cerebrates merge into a new Overmind behind-the-scenes from the get-go. Now that Kerrigan has supposedly killed every cerebrate, it's going to be difficult to re-introduce a long-lost cerebrate in a sequel without resorting to more plot-devicey shenanigans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
That's an interesting take on the hybrids - in that they're actually (well really, what they think is) a force of utilitarian good. They'd still retain their ominous nature as BW showed, but ominous only to the Protoss and Zerg in actuality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
I would understand the Zerg not wanting to be part of this because they don't want to care for the "inferior" but to destroy it and that being "superior" requires constant self-improvement but that they could be made agreeable since they would relish having help joining with/assimilating the Protoss and have hope of overpowering /overriding the Hybrids plans down the track. I would also understand the Protoss not wanting to take part since it would mean great change and destruction of their specific way of life (and bring up old hurts of being "failures" that led to the Aeon of Strife again), not the least it would also mean having to merge with their most hated enemy, the Zerg. However, this theory wouldn't have much to do with the Terrans though since the Hybrids would consider them inferior and worthy of protection and only care to deal with the Protoss and the Zerg (the "mistakes"). Hm, thinking about it more, this theory kinda fits well in my on-the-spot sequel idea outline. Nice.
I can't imagine this being Amon's actual motivation given the straight-forward villainy that's on display. It could work but given the way the things have been written so far, it'd definitely feel nonsensical and full of tonal whiplash if it was the case though.
Not really. Have one have fled in the past, or have surrendered to Kerrigan at some point with the intention of taking over when the time is right. Not that hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Well, the humans to my version of the hybrids are like little babies, barely better than animals and not nearly as cute. The Enbrechi (as I will now refer to my version of the hybrids) patronize them entirely, saying they're only good for general labor and raising animals, but that since they are life they "deserve to be treasured as any creature."Quote:
That's an interesting take on the hybrids - in that they're actually (well really, what they think is) a force of utilitarian good. They'd still retain their ominous nature as BW showed, but ominous only to the Protoss and Zerg in actuality.
I would understand the Zerg not wanting to be part of this because they don't want to care for the "inferior" but to destroy it and that being "superior" requires constant self-improvement but that they could be made agreeable since they would relish having help joining with/assimilating the Protoss and have hope of overpowering /overriding the Hybrids plans down the track. I would also understand the Protoss not wanting to take part since it would mean great change and destruction of their specific way of life (and bring up old hurts of being "failures" that led to the Aeon of Strife again), not the least it would also mean having to merge with their most hated enemy, the Zerg. However, this theory wouldn't have much to do with the Terrans though since the Hybrids would consider them inferior and worthy of protection and only care to deal with the Protoss and the Zerg (the "mistakes"). Hm, thinking about it more, this theory kinda fits well in my on-the-spot sequel idea outline. Nice.
I can't imagine this being Amon's actual motivation given the straight-forward villainy that's on display. It could work but given the way the things have been written so far, it'd definitely feel nonsensical and full of tonal whiplash if it was the case though.
Yea, totally incompatible with SC2. All I wanted in a hybrid was anything that's just not another big, bad race that's come in to destroy everybody. Heck, I'd be content if they were simply the footsoldiers of an evil Xel'Naga.
Sure, not hard but a lot more gimmicky and far too convenient. Kinda like the reasons for how the Psi-Disruptor, Neo-Overmind, Temples with world-wide Zerg wiping abilities and artifacts are willed into existence for the express purpose of moving a plot forward. It's too late to re-introduce cerebrates in a sequel without it being hackneyed - much like me trying to re-introduce the Overmind (that never actually died) again in my quick sequel idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Besides, how is one rogue cerebrate (who needs the Overmind to function properly and can only control a single brood) supposed to take on Kerrigan (who can function independently and can control multiple broods) without some sort of magical help of a plot device? It'll be a quick fight.
Well, if by re-introduce, you mean suddenly appear after however many years. Assuming that a game was set directly after Brood War, it's entirely possible that Kerrigan was too busy dealing with everything else in BW to handle all the cerebrates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Besides, by cerebrate, I also mean cerebrate analogue. Like, Kerrigan breeds some sort of creature that functions like a cerebrate, but serves as the basis of her extending her control over the swarm, just like how the Overmind used cerebrates. Also, there's no particular need for any of them to rebel, so long as they exist and are interesting characters.
Actually, this relates back to the weakening of Arcturus Mengsk and other characters. See, in SC/BW the tension was really high at all times because there was always a threat on top of a threat. Mengsk is bad, but he's as bad as Kerrigan. Kerrigan's bad, but she's not as bad as the hybrids. It's no wonder characters like Zeratul and Raynor are totally depressed. There's just no end to the evil around them.
SC2, however, sees the weakening of all evil. The Overmind wasn't a single-minded conquerer, but a pawn of generic bad guy voice. Mengsk isn't an evil mofo who says the creepiest things, he's lame propaganda spouting weaking dude. Duran isn't an awesome black guy on the cusp of some great master plan, but a generic white guy who submits to people beneath him again for no reason, and may in fact be dead now.
Basically, all I'm saying is that I want a really scary bad guy in the plot again. Someone who isn't typical, but is entirely and intelligently focused on his evil plans.
Given that all the major powers had expended what force they had attacking Kerrigan only to end up either being totally smashed entirely (UED) or to go back to the safety and comfort of their ruined homeworlds, I'd say Kerrigan would have had plenty of time to chase down any errant cerebrates afterwards. It's not as if Kerrigan would've wanted to let all her hard-work getting that power in the first place being potentially undone. Besides, she wouldn't have had anything to do from then on except maybe sit around doing nothing for 4 years. Oh yeah, that's what she actually ended up doing anyway... Silly me!Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
But that's exactly what the Broodmothers are (or maybe supposed to be?). As to the matter of them being interesting, well, it's probably because Blizz didn't really do that much to make them anymore interesting or conceptually any different than what the initial cerebrates were. When we first see them in Sc2, they're already just there fulfilling the cerebrate role like they did before and everything was hunky-dory. Only in HotS do we get a possibility of a rebellious Broodmother but it's short-lived and it turns out their pretty easily swayed to go back on Kerrigan's side, so go figure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Course, this doesn't mean it would stop you from writing an alternate sequel about the trouble Kerrigan had making and controlling the first Broodmother and how it ended up being her downfall. It'd be a nice riff on that "you're your own worst enemy" theme, give you some Zerg-on-Zerg and a way to bring them back to their roots.
To be fair, the weakening of Mengsk happened in BW - he kind of lost his mojo there and stopped feeling like a threat anyone could take seriously. If anything, Sc2/WoL bumped him up a bit more as a possible physical threat even though that type of threat, in practice, still retained that ineffectual, "toothless tiger" feel we initially got from BW. This is partially why it's so unsatisfactory to have him be the villain across 2 entries of Sc2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
The weakening of the Overmind is just shameful because it's not just at it's expense to prop up some other dude, it also had the double-effect of gutting what the Zerg were all about in the first place. Hence, the need to introduce the Primal Zerg to prop them back up. But, the problem with the Primal Zerg is the same as it is with Amon - it's the assumption that they were always supposed be like that. They're essentially saying the Zerg are not the Zerg by undermining and re-imagining wholesale the initial concept of the Zerg altogether.
As to Duran and Narud, they're threat level is really attributed and tied into the Hybrids and Amon. Given the indifference I already show toward the uninspired threat that is Amon, I shouldn't be expected to really care much more about his underlings either, honestly. Sure, Duran/Narud (could be two different people) may have a different agenda and be genuine threats on their own, but given there's been so little exploration of either and what they will reveal will still come off as a tomato surprise, I'd still wouldn't expect any interesting villainy to come from them in the end.
I disagree about Mengsk in BW. Thing about it is, BW was all about threat on top of threat. Mengsk needed time to recover from SC's events, in which he had to maintain control of the Dominion (note Duke's references to mini-rebellions in BW). The more organized UED was bound to cause trouble, particularly given that Mengsk tends to treat his people like resources that can be disposed of at any moment. As far as being weaker than Kerrigan goes, that's just thematically necessary. He had to have created a worse monster than himself. Besides, his greed for Korhal was what made him work with Kerrigan, and given that he's not above sending Zerg against humans, there's no way he's above allying with Kerrigan. He wasn't so much afraid of her (though he probably was at least a little) but rather that he preferred to take advantage of the opportunity. Or "opportunity", as it were.
I think I see your point, though.
Besides, part of what I mean by strength is character strength. Mengsk was a delightful mofo in SC/BW, and in SC2 he was Mr. Cliche with a voice actor far superior to the requirements of his lines. Mengsk's lines earlier were scary and fun. I want more characters with scary lines.
Don't even get me started on Duran. The whole "Narud" thing was such a reversal of what made everything Duran good that I still can't wrap my head around what exactly SC2 was trying to do with the Narud character. Aside from attempting to pin the blame for the hybrids on one of the Mengsk boys.
Must have missed that reference to mini-rebellions... either that or it wasn't attributed to Duke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
What was there to recover from on Mengsk's side (the SoK) after Rebel Yell? He withdrew his forces and used the Zerg to demolish the Confeds and whatever army would've been stationed there to protect it. Given that the Terrans are in complete shambles at that point (that 9 out of 13 worlds thing), Mengsk and the SoK, are by default, the most powerful Terran faction and in an opportunity to take control of whatever is left.
And for some, this is where the rub is. Really, there was nothing stopping the writers from having BW without the UED in the sense that the "general threat of a Terran force"-role could've easily been attributed to Mengsk. One would have to somewhat tweak the extent of the losses the Terrans suffered, remove Duke's bumbling attempts in Overmind and The Fall and accentuate the weakness of the Zerg and the Protoss from the losses they took in order to get the K-sector Terrans a chance to become an equal, let alone a threat, to the other races but it would be ideal if one wanted to sell the effectiveness of Mengsk as a real player/threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Funny thing about this is that I've actually argued against the very notion I'm putting down here in a previous thread (with FanaticTemplar no less) being realistically possible in that universe, but it does have merit because it would be a means to keep the K-sector specific Terrans more relevant without having to resorting to some outside influence (like how the UED could've been used - but were not)/plot device to bolster them.
I have no qualms about the "creating a monster worse than yourself" dynamic between Mengsk and Kerrigan and that it resulting in Mengsk having to be on the shitty end of the stick... if it were done well. In BW, Kerrigan is really only the more threatening of the two because of Mengsk having none of the mojo that so characterised him in Sc1. His surrender to the UED is just ridiculous when he then goes on to threaten them from a position of no power and is shocked that they'll execute him for being, and admitting, to be an uncontrollable threat (especially when Mengsk has likely done so many a time to others for lesser crimes). Having him being so blinded by greed and so trusting in Kerrigan's "deal" (even when he says, or rather lampshades very poorly, that she isn't trustworthy) such that he is genuinely surprised at Kerrigan's expected treachery is baffling. All these just make Mengsk seem like a bonafide idiot. Having everything taken from him would've been familiar ground for Mengsk and should've spurred the type of Mengsk that eventually made the SoK feared and the one that was so calculating in Sc1 (which wasn't so long ago), not this buffonish, narrow-minded man we have in BW. It's as if Mengsk was never the intelligent man we thought he was in Sc1 but that it was just a mask which he took off and never put back on (because he was too dumb most likely).Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
All the stuff pertaining to the Hybrids is quite (and probably the most) mind-numbingly inane in Sc2 to me, so it's not really surprising to have the Narud character appear and just fizzle into nothing. Besides, they can still resort to denying that Narud was actually Duran if they really had to or whatever. Beyond that, meh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Uh, it was during the mission in BW where the UED was trying to get the battlecruisers, and they happen to run into Duke, who mentions some rebellions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
I admit I'm entirely confused on the exact standing of the Terran worlds. Between SC2 and the novels, I can't keep it all straight. Are you absolutely sure the 13 worlds thing came from the game or the manual?Quote:
What was there to recover from on Mengsk's side (the SoK) after Rebel Yell? He withdrew his forces and used the Zerg to demolish the Confeds and whatever army would've been stationed there to protect it. Given that the Terrans are in complete shambles at that point (that 9 out of 13 worlds thing), Mengsk and the SoK, are by default, the most powerful Terran faction and in an opportunity to take control of whatever is left.
Aside from that, there are many presumables of what Mengsk had to do after established his dominance over the Confederacy. He had to stem the damage he caused by using the Zerg to attack his enemies (and since he intended them to reunite under him, any survivors are default something he has to care about), boost Korhal economically as his new capital, create some form of government to replace the one he destroyed, manage some defense against the Zerg, and compensate for sending Duke and Duke's forces to Char. Plus the rebels Duke mentioned. There's a ton of things there to keep him occupied.
I'm fine with Starcraft with or without the UED. They definitely are are plot manipulation, though. Thing is, besides Mengsk being busy with his own things (see the list I mentioned) and the Protoss being busy trying to survive, there's no reason for the two not to agree to a cease-fire. Potentially it's the beginning of a period of cooperation between the two.Quote:
And for some, this is where the rub is. Really, there was nothing stopping the writers from having BW without the UED in the sense that the "general threat of a Terran force"-role could've easily been attributed to Mengsk. One would have to somewhat tweak the extent of the losses the Terrans suffered, remove Duke's bumbling attempts in Overmind and The Fall and accentuate the weakness of the Zerg and the Protoss from the losses they took in order to get the K-sector Terrans a chance to become an equal, let alone a threat, to the other races but it would be ideal if one wanted to sell the effectiveness of Mengsk as a real player/threat.
Funny thing about this is that I've actually argued against the very notion I'm putting down here in a previous thread (with FanaticTemplar no less) being realistically possible in that universe, but it does have merit because it would be a means to keep the K-sector specific Terrans more relevant without having to resorting to some outside influence (like how the UED could've been used - but were not)/plot device to bolster them.
That, however, is the in-world explanation. In a literary sense, it kills a lot of tension for the Terrans and Protoss to be less of a threat to each other. Given that Starcraft is, on the tin, a game where three races duke it out for dominance, there's going to have to be missions where the two fight, and a logical reason for doing so. Mengsk wouldn't attack unless he had a demi-pragmatic motive, and the Protoss won't because it's a waste of time and resources, given their situation.
So the UED were made to fill the gap. They also serve to allow Kerrigan to trick other people into fighting them instead of her, though that would have worked better if Blizzard had established better that the UED really is composed of evil mofos. As is, the UED seemed better than Mengsk, at least a little.
...I need to do a post on how DuGalle's and Stukov's characters were completely manipulated into being whatever the plot wanted them to be.
Mengsk didn't surrender to the UED. He holed himself up in his thickest defenses, then tried to escape. He failed simply because the UED was stronger/smarter. Play the missions, man.Quote:
I have no qualms about the "creating a monster worse than yourself" dynamic between Mengsk and Kerrigan and that it resulting in Mengsk having to be on the shitty end of the stick... if it were done well. In BW, Kerrigan is really only the more threatening of the two because of Mengsk having none of the mojo that so characterised him in Sc1. His surrender to the UED is just ridiculous when he then goes on to threaten them from a position of no power and is shocked that they'll execute him for being, and admitting, to be an uncontrollable threat (especially when Mengsk has likely done so many a time to others for lesser crimes). Having him being so blinded by greed and so trusting in Kerrigan's "deal" (even when he says, or rather lampshades very poorly, that she isn't trustworthy) such that he is genuinely surprised at Kerrigan's expected treachery is baffling. All these just make Mengsk seem like a bonafide idiot. Having everything taken from him would've been familiar ground for Mengsk and should've spurred the type of Mengsk that eventually made the SoK feared and the one that was so calculating in Sc1 (which wasn't so long ago), not this buffonish, narrow-minded man we have in BW. It's as if Mengsk was never the intelligent man we thought he was in Sc1 but that it was just a mask which he took off and never put back on (because he was too dumb most likely).
I don't recall Mengsk threatening them, but it is well within character for Mengsk to pretend to be greater/more important than he really is. In fact, that's the whole basis of his character. He's so focused on being a great, beloved leader, that he's willing to go to any extent to make people think he really is that way. That, and presumably he's trying to keep his dignity. It's actually kinda cute how he and DuGalle were being all formal with each other, particularly when DuGalle knew he didn't deserve it.
As for him allying with Kerrigan, I took that for another attempt at getting Korhal back. After all, at that point it was occupied by the UED, and he might as well work with Kerrigan to get it. Honestly, I'm fascinated by Mengsk's insanity. He'll do whatever it takes to get what he wants, including act like a huge fool. Mengsk wasn't working with her out of weakness, per se, but rather that he found it a suitable trade to give Kerrigan what she wanted so he could get Korhal. Mengsk likely didn't give a thought to what would happen after.
But to be fair, in the Zerg missions, Mengsk's (and Raynor's and Fenix's) positions weren't explained all that well. Plus we already knew Kerrigan was a traitor, but they didn't. None of them knew what went down on Shakuras, otherwise she couldn't have tricked them. I can't emphasize enough that the characters don't see what the player sees. You'd be shocked how many people on ff.net (and in Blizzard official novels) don't seem to get that.
Yeah, that about sums it up.Quote:
All the stuff pertaining to the Hybrids is quite (and probably the most) mind-numbingly inane in Sc2 to me, so it's not really surprising to have the Narud character appear and just fizzle into nothing. Besides, they can still resort to denying that Narud was actually Duran if they really had to or whatever. Beyond that, meh.
DUKE Well, now. I don't know which militia you all are from, but I advise ya' to back down... NOW! I'm General Edmund Duke of the Dominion armada. And in the name of Emperor Mengsk, I order you to surrender your forces immediately and unconditionally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
STUKOV Ah, General Duke. I expected your forces to arrive sooner. You should know that we represent not one of your rag-tag peasant Militias, but the combined might of the United Earth Directorate.
DUKE Earth Directorate? You mean to tell me you've come all the way out here from Earth?
STUKOV That is correct, General. We're here to take control over this sector and its occupants for the betterment of mankind.
DUKE Over my dead body. I don't care where yer' from, son. No one pushes around the Terran Dominion on my watch! All units, fire at will!
There isn't a reference. That's everything Duke says.
Y'know, I really can't be arsed to go through the motions, but if there's going to be a debate at all, it might as well be accurate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HD8ZtM1sWgIQuote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
I made sure I read through the transcript before replying previously. There is nothing about Duke saying he was actually fighting rebellions. All he says is that he doesn't know which militia they come, demands their surrender, expresses confusion about them coming from Earth, followed by indifference and lastly, an order to attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Yes, both in the manual and game of Sc1 (see the prologue to the Overmind campaign).Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
I never doubted this or that it'd be easy for Mengsk but he did manage to get this all done by the time BW starts. As to the UED being more powerful than Mengsk in a straight-match-up from the time we first see them in BW, there are some arguments against this notion: The UED need Duran's aid in their attack on Boralis, they need to commandeer BC's at the Dylarian shipyards before they can fight off Duke and only have time to go the silos or physics labs when both can easily be reached on the battlefield they were fighting in. Either way, it seems Mengsk's Dominion was quite developed and a formidable force for the UED to have to get through.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Given that Mengsk seems quite established (it's never explained but we have to assume that the time from the start of Overmind to the end of The Stand was spent very well considering Mengsk's position) and that the Protoss are getting ever weaker in BW, I could easily see Mengsk wanting to take further steps to make sure the Terran position is safe and be the Terran aggressor instead of the UED. He has no reason to let the Protoss off considering they seemed willing to burn their worlds previously without warning or explanation. If his utter ruthlessness and inauguration speech is any indication, I'm sure he'll want to make steps to try and prevent that from potentially happening again and wanting to exact some form of repayment in kind if he could.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
If we had Mengsk in the UED role, we wouldn't have to have half of the Terran missions having to be TvT. We'd also avoid having Mengsk be an idiot as well. Kerrigan can still trick Raynor into helping her against Mengsk and the Protoss against the renegade cerebrates, so nothing much really changes on her end.
Please do but one could arguably say that for some of the other characters in BW, too. Look at how they treated poor Aldaris....Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Poor choice of word on my part - I was using it to describe Mengsk's weaselly attempts at parleying with the UED as some form of capitulation on his part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Call it a boast or passive-aggressive threat or whatever, but when Mengsk nonchalantly says "I'll overthrow you as well" when they have him dead to rights, that's not exactly a smart thing to say especially if you're wanting to expect a pleasant/non-reactionary reply in return.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Oh, I don't mind Mengsk becoming an actual nutter but remember the reason why I even brought this up: it's about the validity of Mengsk being a credible threat. If he is as short-sighted and dim-witted (I mean honestly, Mengsk what can you immediately do with a smoldering ruin of a world once Kerrigan deems it's yours? She'll move onto the secondary plan that you already knew about: of exacting revenge on you, you idiot, that's what!) as BW reveals he truly is, we really can't expect him to be a credible threat in Sc2 either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Besides, a smart man/Sc1 Mengsk would've known that Kerrigan couldn't get anywhere without his help - her threat of jailing him forever should he not comply is pretty hollow when her goals are more time-constrained than his. This is when he could've used that leverage to some effect. But no, he just goes by her words and assumes a deal is unbreakable and without frills - especially when the terms are dictated by someone who has every right to hate/backstab him and that he knows it, too.
I didn't say anything about Raynor being stupid, however, as part of his initial, base character archetype, he's just meant to be easier to trick because he's too trusting in general and eventually gets burned by it... several times (first by Mengsk, then Kerrigan and then Tychus). Mengsk, on the other hand, has no excuse to be surprised at Kerrigan's betrayal unless he really has become an idiot... which Sc2 later goes on to confirm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
I was using "rebellions" as shorthand. Basically, there are people who aren't content to simply allow Mengsk to do as he pleases (whatever Mengsk's political intent is for them at this point) and they're causing Mengsk distraction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Thanks, I couldn't remember.Quote:
Yes, both in the manual and game of Sc1 (see the prologue to the Overmind campaign).
How much do you know about politics? Given that Duke already mentioned those militias in BW, these conflicts obviously were still ongoing. There is no evidence at all that all of this was done by BW. It's silly to assume it was done. Besides the militias, Mengsk had plans for his "glorious empire", so there's always going to be political/economic issues for him to deal with. Besides that, there's still the Zerg to deal with. That, and they are in no position to predict what the Protoss might do. While I don't believe the Protoss would be too much of a threat given what happened to them, Mengsk has no way of knowing exactly what their deal is. It's not like Raynor's going to tell him.Quote:
I never doubted this or that it'd be easy for Mengsk but he did manage to get this all done by the time BW starts.
That's true. Clearly the UED has some smarter strategists on its side. That, and I remember someone saying they'd collected allies in the K-Sector.Quote:
As to the UED being more powerful than Mengsk in a straight-match-up from the time we first see them in BW, there are some arguments against this notion: The UED need Duran's aid in their attack on Boralis, they need to commandeer BC's at the Dylarian shipyards before they can fight off Duke and only have time to go the silos or physics labs when both can easily be reached on the battlefield they were fighting in. Either way, it seems Mengsk's Dominion was quite developed and a formidable force for the UED to have to get through.
Well, like I said, Mengsk is in no position to say what the Protoss can do or how weak they might be. Fog of war, bro. Neither is there any indication he knows where Shakuras is. Also, you're making an assumption on how well Mengsk is established. Given his strategy of holing up when the UED went after him, Arcturus is more likely to spend cash on defense, rather than offense. As much beautiful crap as Mengsk talked in his speech, in his heart he's a pragmatic man, and not likely to go on the offensive when he has no clue how to do so, or how doing so can make him look better.Quote:
Given that Mengsk seems quite established (it's never explained but we have to assume that the time from the start of Overmind to the end of The Stand was spent very well considering Mengsk's position) and that the Protoss are getting ever weaker in BW, I could easily see Mengsk wanting to take further steps to make sure the Terran position is safe and be the Terran aggressor instead of the UED. He has no reason to let the Protoss off considering they seemed willing to burn their worlds previously without warning or explanation. If his utter ruthlessness and inauguration speech is any indication, I'm sure he'll want to make steps to try and prevent that from potentially happening again and wanting to exact some form of repayment in kind if he could.
Let me put it this way. Mengsk cares a lot about his image. How would he look if he led the Dominion on a long war to annihilate a race they couldn't find? The people would hate him because they're all dying for his war efforts. The SC/BW Mengsk cares about how the general public sees him. It's foolish to spend money on a war against the Protoss, particularly when so many of their planets fell to the Zerg instead, and the Zerg are more likely to attack them.
No, Mengsk is too pragmatic to go after the 'Toss at this time. Too much effort for too few direct benefits. Sure "revenge" is fine, but Mengsk's speech exists not to explain himself, but to propagandize the people. If he can negotiate peace with the Protoss (assuming they wanted to) and be called the great emperor who negotiated his way out of war, then he'll do it.
Honestly, if Mengsk had taken the aggressor position as you suggest, I just know that there are people here who would argue against his sudden up-boost in power, just as they do when it's BW Mengsk versus SC2 Mengsk.
I've always attributed that to Mengsk's insanity, not his stupidity. After all, it was equally dumb when Mengsk went on his demented rant when Raynor was about to leave him. Granted, I don't feel at all that Kerrigan tricked Mengsk. She made him an offer, and Mengsk took it. You saw him practically drool over his victory during that mission where they take Korhal back. He was so desirous of his own goals that he was blind to all else.Quote:
If we had Mengsk in the UED role, we wouldn't have to have half of the Terran missions having to be TvT. We'd also avoid having Mengsk be an idiot as well. Kerrigan can still trick Raynor into helping her against Mengsk and the Protoss against the renegade cerebrates, so nothing much really changes on her end.
Quite frankly, Raynor and Fenix come across as more stupid to me. They're killing humans alongside the Zerg? As people who fought against the Zerg on Aiur, they both should know better. Especially when infested Terrans are being used to attack the UED. At some point, they really should have looked at each other, said, "what the hell are we doing?" and left. For that part alone, separate from Mengsk, the Zerg missions of BW needed a rewrite.
Absolutely not. You did have to go and mention my favorite character, didn't you? :D No, Aldaris' end was the exact result of his personality -- he briefly grants the Dark Templar some credit after the fall of Aiur, but completely overreacts when he finds out about Raszagal. It makes sense for someone who was reluctant to trust the DT (or anyone in general) to act this way. His motives are obvious. That is, it's easy to see why Aldaris didn't make the smartest choices ever.Quote:
Please do but one could arguably say that for some of the other characters in BW, too. Look at how they treated poor Aldaris....
DuGalle and Stukov, on the other hand, go back and forth to the point where it's harder to decipher their motives. DuGalle in particular goes from irrationally distrustful of Duran to irrationally trusting of Duran's word over the man who, by all appearances, is his dear friend of many years. We don't know enough about DuGalle to figure out why he would do something so stupid. However, that's how far I'll go on that topic for now, as this post is long enough.
Eh, I never saw it as parleying. I saw it as a would-be emperor play-acting at being deserving of rights, while DuGalle is just plain shutting him down. Honestly, that exchange is one of my favorites ever.Quote:
Poor choice of word on my part - I was using it to describe Mengsk's weaselly attempts at parleying with the UED as some form of capitulation on his part.
Like I said, Mengsk was play-acting, trying to hold onto his dignity. DuGalle never gave the impression that he would do anything besides execute Mengsk, and I have the feeling that Mengsk would have at least been happy to have a show-trial where he could wax poetic about how great he is, and possibly have a chance to escape in the meantime.Quote:
Call it a boast or passive-aggressive threat or whatever, but when Mengsk nonchalantly says "I'll overthrow you as well" when they have him dead to rights, that's not exactly a smart thing to say especially if you're wanting to expect a pleasant/non-reactionary reply in return.
Lol, compare that exchange to DuGalle's surrender at the end of the last mission. Sometimes I think half the reason Kerrigan killed the expeditionary force is because DuGalle was such a baby about it. If he had sworn revenge, like Mengsk did at the end of that mission, Kerrigan might not have spared him, but she would at least shown him a little more dignity about it.
Says the person who said Mengsk was "established" after BW enough to attack the Protoss. :PQuote:
Oh, I don't mind Mengsk becoming an actual nutter but remember the reason why I even brought this up: it's about the validity of Mengsk being a credible threat. If he is as short-sighted and dim-witted (I mean honestly, Mengsk what can you immediately do with a smoldering ruin of a world once Kerrigan deems it's yours? She'll move onto the secondary plan that you already knew about: of exacting revenge on you, you idiot, that's what!) as BW reveals he truly is, we really can't expect him to be a credible threat in Sc2 either.
I dunno, Kerrigan could have attacked whoever had them to obtain the psi emitters. It just saved a lot of time to get Mengsk. Given that she saved his life, Mengsk probably figured, in his own demented way, that she wanted him to stay alive (not to mention that did eventually turn out to be true). Maybe he thought he owed her. As far as the cold sleep cell goes, I took that to mean that Kerrigan would just keep him on ice until he decided to play along. By not threatening death, she made herself look more reasonable in his eyes.Quote:
Besides, a smart man/Sc1 Mengsk would've known that Kerrigan couldn't get anywhere without his help - her threat of jailing him forever should he not comply is pretty hollow when her goals are more time-constrained than his. This is when he could've used that leverage to some effect. But no, he just goes by her words and assumes a deal is unbreakable and without frills - especially when the terms are dictated by someone who has every right to hate/backstab him and that he knows it, too.
Heck, I did. Raynor's friggin' stupid for getting involved with Kerrigan. So's Fenix. Raynor should honestly have learned by now not to so easily trust other people. Now, if Kerrigan had went up to him and said, "I'm no longer under the Overmind's control, could you help me become human again?", I can see him listening. He should have been immediately suspicious when she pulled him into attacking the UED, and even more suspicious when so many human beings died in the process. It got the point where it ceased being about Kerrigan's lies, but about the cost of defending the K-Sector from the UED, as well as the moral implications of helping genetically mutant monsters over the lives of sentient people. Not to mention subjecting any survivors to the reign of Arcturus Mengsk.Quote:
I didn't say anything about Raynor being stupid, however, as part of his initial, base character archetype, he's just meant to be easier to trick because he's too trusting in general and eventually gets burned by it... several times (first by Mengsk, then Kerrigan and then Tychus). Mengsk, on the other hand, has no excuse to be surprised at Kerrigan's betrayal unless he really has become an idiot... which Sc2 later goes on to confirm.
No, after being so closely involved with Mengsk, Raynor shouldn't have trusted Kerrigan. Blizzard either should have given him a clear reason for siding with Kerrigan over the UED despite all the deaths, or rewritten his presence entirely.
It may well be true, but Duke never makes mention or alludes to any of this in the section you said it was supposed to be in. That is a fact, unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
I don't need to know anything about politics to see that in the BW we have, Mengsk's Dominion is sitting pretty as the dominant Terran force, which incidentally is the original point I was making. I mean, why else would the UED want to attack him at all if he weren't?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Given that the initial premise put-forward was that "Mengsk could've taken the role of the UED as the Terran aggressor", these very same question can be asked of the UED in the BW that we actually got. Given that the UED had to spy through Confederacy Terran channels to get their data to prosecute their war against the Zerg and Protoss, one can expect Mengsk to do the same if the Dominion is used in exchange for the UED in BW. We don't know how the UED planned to destroy the Protoss either afterall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Oh, and of course I'm making assumptions about Mengsk since this is a speculative rewrite of BW based on what we know of the actual BW. Had the UED not existed, we know (based on what the UED targetted in the BW we actually got) that the Dominion had a city on Braxis for co-ordinating their weapons and logistics (God knows how many more he had and where), had a shipyard for refuelling BC which had in excess of 10+ BC waiting there (this is not including the BC that Duke already has at his command or any others stationed at other shipyards or out on other assignments), could've "stumbled" on the Psi Disruptor eventually themselves and a massive city built on Korhal that is backed up by a huge standing army consisting of an abundance of the most dangerous Terran weapons available (BCs and nukes).
As to the "image" thing, Mengsk bills himself as a proactive protector of the Terrans against xenos in general (unlike the reactionary Confeds who failed the Terran majority). Since all he knows that the Protoss come soon after th Zerg - both with the seeming intention of destroying their (a Terran) world, he can't risk thinking the Protoss having good intentions (much like the UED) and letting them slide if they enter Terran space without losing face and looking like the ineffectual Confederacy. Finding the source of the Protoss and ending that threat would be long-term plan - much like what is was with the UED.
Note the original impetus of even discussing Mengsk as the Terran aggressor - as a suitable replacement for the problematic UED.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
What's so demented about about being angry at someone who is going to wreck everything you did (and in which they helped, no less) to get to where you are right now and has followed you all this way to only to be angry at me now? To Mengsk, Raynor is the crazy one for suddenly being hostile knowing the power he now wields.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Which is why Mengsk is stupid. He is a man that already knows there are no such things as equal deals - it's how he is able to manipulate people to see his way and is probably how he was able to get so far being head of the SoK. To have him do nothing but accept Kerrigan to hold up her bargain to do no harm despite acknowledging she is trustworthy and then proceed to be surprised (of all reactions) when she does reveal her interions is just idiotic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
You'll get no rebuttal from me. I was just trying to defend Raynor since so many people love him. He is very typical of the "good is dumb" trope though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
As much as I hate to rag on Aldaris, his revolution and poor communication in BW are pretty ill-conceived things to do. Did he have any proof Raszagal was being manipulated or was it all just hearsay? How come no-one in his army know of this and tell Zeratul or Artanis before or even after Aldaris was killed? I could go on, but it hurts too much. This is one of those time where I would like to blame it on plot-induced stupidity (a writer fault) than anything else. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
I guess the idea was that Dugalle was supposed to eventually trust in Duran's advice given how correct it was most of the time. It doesn't really come across in the game that well though. It's either that or Gradius' theory about Duran doing some mind manipulation of his own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Mengsk begs to differ: "I wish to parley with your Executive Officer at once!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
I've always regarded Mengsk as a cynic when it comes to people so this would sound somewhat unrealistically optimistic for some one like Mengsk to expect, especially given the lengths they've gone to in trying to apprehend him. Besides, he knows the history of the UPL as being extremely harsh to deviants of any kind and that a military take-over your despotic institution that started without formal negotiations often means the aggressor is likely out for your blood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Incorrect. I said Mengsk was established at the start of BW such that Blizz could've conceivably exchanged the UED's role with Mengsk's Dominion in BW had it been written without the UED ever existing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Besides, Mengsk being established at the start of BW has nothing to do with him becoming inexplicably stupid throughout BW.
Please don't rationalise for Mengsk. It's further cementing in my mind that he is indeed stupid. I didn't like the idea then and I like it less so now. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
But this is Kerrigan, remember? Raynor's eternal love. :p (I had to gag for a moment there)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Really, if you put it this way, everyone in BW is stupid for trusting Kerrigan because the only thing they have going for them is Kerrigan's word that she's "normal" now after the Overmind was killed. This argument has been done previously, so I won't go there. Instead, I'm going to defend Raynor (I bet no-one saw that coming).
Raynor, more than anyone, can be justified in his stupidity over trusting Kerrigan's at all. Why? Largely because that is part of this character archetype but apart from that it's to do with his history with Kerrigan. I'd imagine that it was Kerrigan who came to Aiur to rescue Raynor and Fenix, which would go along way in shoring up Kerrigan's cover-story of being changed now that the Overmind was gone. I'd assume that by telling him that there's a new Overmind growing would be considerable concern because then she'd be totally unreasonable (compared to now) if it were to fully mature and take control of her. In conjunction with the threat of this alternative should he not help Kerrigan (and risking the off-chance that she really is normal again based on Raynor's too-trusting nature), Raynor's regret and survivor guilt at not having prevented Kerrigan from being captured on Tarsonis previously, would also see him wanting to help her as a way to compensate/redeem himself (a theme that WoL doesn't handle well but what was supposed to be about). When the UED intended to capture the Overmind in order to use the Zerg and succeeded in doing so, they naturally became the next target to get through.
Keep in mind that Raynor does actually express doubt about Kerrigan's motivations but I guess by that time, he's seen the neo-Overmind and the UED's control over it, so has no choice but to side with the "evil he knows best" for now and hopes Kerrigan is on the level.
Excuse me?Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
DUKE Well, now. I don't know which militia you all are from, but I advise ya' to back down... NOW!
What the heck do you think this is supposed to imply, then?! Obviously people are giving Duke trouble. This is exactly what I said it was. Namely, a military distraction composed of people willing to strike out against Mengsk.
Herp derp, bro.
Dominant force in the sector =/= sitting pretty. Mengsk is certainly the most powerful human leader, but he's also in the midst of planets being devastated by the Zerg and Protoss, putting down opposition, and dealing with the resulting economic consequences. Or did you think losing those planets to the Zerg means nothing at all?Quote:
I don't need to know anything about politics to see that in the BW we have, Mengsk's Dominion is sitting pretty as the dominant Terran force, which incidentally is the original point I was making. I mean, why else would the UED want to attack him at all if he weren't?
Lol, the UED definitely wasn't all that well thought out. It just makes more sense for the UED to be stupid enough to try and attack everyone in the sector without proper knowledge (them not being from the sector and all). More sense, of course, does not equate to adequate sense. The UED either needed to be better developed, or written out. All I'm saying is, they're a better aggressor than Mengsk.Quote:
Given that the initial premise put-forward was that "Mengsk could've taken the role of the UED as the Terran aggressor", these very same question can be asked of the UED in the BW that we actually got. Given that the UED had to spy through Confederacy Terran channels to get their data to prosecute their war against the Zerg and Protoss, one can expect Mengsk to do the same if the Dominion is used in exchange for the UED in BW. We don't know how the UED planned to destroy the Protoss either afterall.
Eh, my objection to your assumption was simply that you were putting too much strength into Mengsk at the beginning of BW. Besides, the strength of one base, particularly the one protecting the emperor who was keen on hiding from his enemies, is a good judgement of the empire as a whole. It's very much not a statement on his ability to fight an offensive war. Clearly Mengsk is more interested in protecting his throne, rather than going against the Protoss when he, again, has no flipping clue where they are.Quote:
Oh, and of course I'm making assumptions about Mengsk since this is a speculative rewrite of BW based on what we know of the actual BW. Had the UED not existed, we know (based on what the UED targetted in the BW we actually got) that the Dominion had a city on Braxis for co-ordinating their weapons and logistics (God knows how many more he had and where), had a shipyard for refuelling BC which had in excess of 10+ BC waiting there (this is not including the BC that Duke already has at his command or any others stationed at other shipyards or out on other assignments), could've "stumbled" on the Psi Disruptor eventually themselves and a massive city built on Korhal that is backed up by a huge standing army consisting of an abundance of the most dangerous Terran weapons available (BCs and nukes).
The Confeds were "reactionary"? Uh...whatever.Quote:
As to the "image" thing, Mengsk bills himself as a proactive protector of the Terrans against xenos in general (unlike the reactionary Confeds who failed the Terran majority). Since all he knows that the Protoss come soon after th Zerg - both with the seeming intention of destroying their (a Terran) world, he can't risk thinking the Protoss having good intentions (much like the UED) and letting them slide if they enter Terran space without losing face and looking like the ineffectual Confederacy. Finding the source of the Protoss and ending that threat would be long-term plan - much like what is was with the UED.
I grant you that Mengsk wouldn't simply ignore any potential Protoss threat. Thing is, he doesn't know anything about them. Thus, his only option is defensive measures.
Given that the Protoss aren't in the best of positions, and in BW comment that they care more about their own survival, it's highly likely that the Protoss would have attempted to do what they can to appear as less of a threat. Granted, that's speculation, but it's also the most sensible option for the 'Toss. But yes, any peace talks between the two would depend more on Protoss action than on Mengsk.
Note my objection: Mengsk is an even dumber choice for an aggressor. Besides, we needed more human characters anyway. While DuGalle had his character problems, a thing I liked about him was that he was, politically speaking, on Mengsk's level. He wasn't a hick like Raynor or a follower like Duke. What Starcraft needed (and needs) is other political people who can influence Terran interests.Quote:
Note the original impetus of even discussing Mengsk as the Terran aggressor - as a suitable replacement for the problematic UED.
That's exactly my point. Mengsk, as someone attempting to make himself an all important emperor, shouldn't have responded to Raynor by flat out stating that the would rule the sector and see it burnt to ashes around him. That's like mondo levels of crazy.Quote:
What's so demented about about being angry at someone who is going to wreck everything you did (and in which they helped, no less) to get to where you are right now and has followed you all this way to only to be angry at me now? To Mengsk, Raynor is the crazy one for suddenly being hostile knowing the power he now wields.
I think this difference of opinion is a matter of perspective. I enjoyed Mengsk's blindness to her intent. Sure, it was stupid, but in many evil minds, there exists both great intelligence and massive stupidity. For example, Mao Tse Tung once ordered the Chinese people to kill birds, despite the fact these birds were helpful in getting rid of pests on farmland.Quote:
Which is why Mengsk is stupid. He is a man that already knows there are no such things as equal deals - it's how he is able to manipulate people to see his way and is probably how he was able to get so far being head of the SoK. To have him do nothing but accept Kerrigan to hold up her bargain to do no harm despite acknowledging she is trustworthy and then proceed to be surprised (of all reactions) when she does reveal her interions is just idiotic.
Hm, I've figured out the issue here, maybe. Thing is, there's a difference between intelligent options and character options. That is, it's perfectly in-character for Mengsk to go blind to Kerrigan's treachery when his empire is at stake (it ain't as though he could get it back without her). Sure, it's not the most intelligent option to do what she says, but it's perfectly reasonable, given who Mengsk is, that he would choose the stupid if it included personal gain.
Pffft. The only "good is dumb" action Raynor took was to listen to infested Kerrigan (bearing in mind that SC2 isn't canon). In trusting Mengsk with the Sons of Korhal, he was simply rooting for the rebel side against an oppressive government. Raynor's the "anti-government redneck" trope.Quote:
You'll get no rebuttal from me. I was just trying to defend Raynor since so many people love him. He is very typical of the "good is dumb" trope though.
It's like I said with Mengsk. There's a difference between the intelligent option and the one a character would choose. The sensible thing to do was for Aldaris to do would be to attempt to find out more, but given his history of distrust, overreacting is well within his character. Yes, it's a plot-hole that Aldaris would have told his followers, but that's a plot problem, not a character one. As is, Blizzard just sweeps the consequences of that under the rug, then heads on over to the Terran missions.Quote:
As much as I hate to rag on Aldaris, his revolution and poor communication in BW are pretty ill-conceived things to do. Did he have any proof Raszagal was being manipulated or was it all just hearsay? How come no-one in his army know of this and tell Zeratul or Artanis before or even after Aldaris was killed? I could go on, but it hurts too much. This is one of those time where I would like to blame it on plot-induced stupidity (a writer fault) than anything else. ;)
Just because Mengsk says it, doesn't mean it's true. Playacting!Quote:
Mengsk begs to differ: "I wish to parley with your Executive Officer at once!"
Nah, Mengsk's arrogance is such that he feels he's a great emperor, and should be treated like one. Should he know better? Absolutely. Does he? Nope!Quote:
I've always regarded Mengsk as a cynic when it comes to people so this would sound somewhat unrealistically optimistic for some one like Mengsk to expect, especially given the lengths they've gone to in trying to apprehend him. Besides, he knows the history of the UPL as being extremely harsh to deviants of any kind and that a military take-over your despotic institution that started without formal negotiations often means the aggressor is likely out for your blood.
Excuse me, I meant to say that it was the start of BW, not the end. I mistyped.Quote:
Incorrect. I said Mengsk was established at the start of BW such that Blizz could've conceivably exchanged the UED's role with Mengsk's Dominion in BW had it been written without the UED ever existing.
Well, I'm not trying to rationalize it, so much as I'm trying to establish that it's in his nature. People take action for all kinds of reasons, and many times not always because it's the smartest thing to do. Mengsk, at his core, tends to the person who always acts most pragmatically for his own short term benefit. There's always going to be an element of stupid to that kind of thinking.Quote:
Please don't rationalise for Mengsk. It's further cementing in my mind that he is indeed stupid. I didn't like the idea then and I like it less so now. :D
Well, keep in mind who Kerrigan wanted to convince. She actually failed to convince more often than she succeeded. The only reason she convinced Zeratul is because she manipulated Raszagal into giving her a chance. Aldaris had nothing to do with her, and the UED boys she never attempted to trick. I personally don't feel she ever really tricked Mengsk much at all. He saw an opportunity to get Korhal back, and he did, damn the consequences.Quote:
But this is Kerrigan, remember? Raynor's eternal love. :p (I had to gag for a moment there)
Really, if you put it this way, everyone in BW is stupid for trusting Kerrigan because the only thing they have going for them is Kerrigan's word that she's "normal" now after the Overmind was killed. This argument has been done previously, so I won't go there. Instead, I'm going to defend Raynor (I bet no-one saw that coming).
That was Blizzard's excuse, not Jimmy's. And no, he's not the "good is dumb archetype." He's a desperate redneck who always tries to do as he feels is right, and it's a break from his natural characterization for him to work with Kerrigan. Blizzard never sufficiently explained why Jimmy chose to work with her, and while it's perfectly reasonable to think Kerrigan rescued him (I think it myself), Blizzard never explicitly stated how Kerrigan got him to trust her.Quote:
Raynor, more than anyone, can be justified in his stupidity over trusting Kerrigan's at all. Why? Largely because that is part of this character archetype but apart from that it's to do with his history with Kerrigan. I'd imagine that it was Kerrigan who came to Aiur to rescue Raynor and Fenix, which would go along way in shoring up Kerrigan's cover-story of being changed now that the Overmind was gone. I'd assume that by telling him that there's a new Overmind growing would be considerable concern because then she'd be totally unreasonable (compared to now) if it were to fully mature and take control of her. In conjunction with the threat of this alternative should he not help Kerrigan (and risking the off-chance that she really is normal again based on Raynor's too-trusting nature), Raynor's regret and survivor guilt at not having prevented Kerrigan from being captured on Tarsonis previously, would also see him wanting to help her as a way to compensate/redeem himself (a theme that WoL doesn't handle well but what was supposed to be about). When the UED intended to capture the Overmind in order to use the Zerg and succeeded in doing so, they naturally became the next target to get through.
Keep in mind that Raynor does actually express doubt about Kerrigan's motivations but I guess by that time, he's seen the neo-Overmind and the UED's control over it, so has no choice but to side with the "evil he knows best" for now and hopes Kerrigan is on the level.
Guilt? Makes sense as a motivator. Reciprocation for saving him? He might fetch Mengsk. But it stopped being about trusting her when she told him to go attack Moria for supplies. At that point, he was killing people with no association to the UED for the specific purpose of helping the Zerg. Given that the player has the option of infesting command centers in that mission, that adds infesting innocent people to go and kill sentient beings, thus weakening human ability to fight against the Zerg later on.
This goes far beyond being too-trusting. Raynor is legit murdering people, when neither he, nor Fenix, or any humans in the K Sector get much benefit beyond having one less tyrant. Raynor should have realized that he was killing people for the benefit of tyrants again, and got out of there/attempted to stop them at his first chance. Both he and Fenix come across not as stupid, but as pure evil for involving themselves in the sordid affair.
And to think that you accuse me of making unfounded and wild assumptions... :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
You're position was that the Dominion is having a real tough time (as a reason for not being established) because Duke would be wasting a lot time fighting rebels. That quote you provided alludes to neither having a tough time, Duke fighting anyone nor that they are specifically rebels (the word militia is not even synonymous with rebels and it could just as easily refer to the fighting forces of the KMC or the UP). You'll have a better chance of convincing me that what Duke is really saying is this: "I don't recognise you guys, but quit what you're doing straight away".
At the time BW starts, both the Zerg and Protoss have suffered massive blows such that they are not in a position to continue harassing the Terrans. You have to keep in mind that from the Overmind campaign onward, Mengsk is free to do whatever he wants without harrassment since the Overmind leaves the Terran sector after having found Kerrigan is bent towards destroying the Protoss and the Protoss have stopped interacting witin Terran space because Tassadar felt guilty and went away. There's plenty of time to contrive a scenario where Mengsk actually established himself as the premiere Terran force when BW begins. That the actual BW starts with a Dominion that seems pretty powerful and that the UED target Mengsk as being a major domestic (Terran-related) threat goes to show how prepared the writers were in making Mengsk seem formidable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Don't get me wrong though. I've always doubted the verisimilitude of Mengsk being so potentially strong so quickly (once again, with FanaticTemplar) but having Mengsk/Dominion as the Terran aggressor/antagonist instead in BW is no worse than having the UED come out of nowhere and disappear without consequence such as they did.
You're halfway there. You're right the UED weren't thought out that well but this is also such that Mengsk could've really taken the role of the "Terran antagonist" if they had to have a "Terran antagonist" at all. The tweaks necessary to get Mengsk in that role would be no more difficult to believe or sillier than some of the other stuff that had occur to make the UEDs appearance justified.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
It's not just one base. He has military logistics bases on other worlds and God knows how many shipyards with however many BC's he has at is disposal. He definitely has the potential and capability. The question of whether he would open hostilities on all xenos the Dominion encounters is just a simple matter of writing it as such. It's no less difficult or silly than writing the UED were always secretly spying on the K-sector, were going to take control over it by subduing everything in it and having the capability to do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Reactionary to the alien forces that were ultimately their undoing (with a little help from Mengsk of course). But I guess that's too strong a word for their efforts since it really seems like they did nothing at all in reaction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
You haven't established why it's worse. Considering how you (and I) lament the idiocy that Mengsk descends into (you think it's only in Sc2 when it really did start in BW), having Mengsk follow on from his reveal as threat in Sc1 to be an actual threat in a rewritten BW is a logical extension. Besides, your rebuttal that this would limit more Terran characters from coming in is bunk because one could easily write a Dugalle and Stukov archetype as being part of the Dominion instead. As to having other political entities, that wasn't a real possibility at the end of Sc1 since Mengsk's Dominion is revealed to be the unifying (although despotic) force of all Terrans. I could understand that if the rewritten BW, with Mengsk's Dominion being the Terran aggressor being beaten into oblivion, one could look at other Terran political groups in the next entry. This dovetails nicely into that thing I said about Sc2's first Terran installment being more interesting if it were about that very thing (the various Terran factional groups) instead of Raynor and Mengsk again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Sure, there is a bit of Messiah Complex and delusion going on there but if I had to explain why he had to say this was because he's trying to drill into Raynor thick skull the responsibility he now has to undertake and that the alternative for him in not undertaking that responsibility or having that responsibility being potentially waylayed (by Raynor's sudden insurrection) is the complete destruction of everything we know. At the least, if he really is just gloating, it wouldn't matter since Raynor was going to die very soon either way. He couldn't foresee that Raynor would escape, somehow keep surviving and eventually find a recording of this exact conversation and have it used against him (to little effect in the end it seemed).Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Then why are you lamenting his idiocy in Sc2 then? Everything is perfectly consistent then if Mengsk was always that blind, stupid and ineffective as a leader.:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Mengsk's plans for an empire were always at stake since Sc1 if everything he did up to actually achieving it was all about getting it (personal gain) in the first place. Besides, the strength of an Empire is in the people not a single location. I don't know why he is so keen on that one single planet - he could start up his Empire anywhere given that the most important thing about an Empire is the Emperor himself and his people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
You'd be wrong about the Mengsk thing. He witnessed that Mengsk was keen to wipe out Antiga with an Psi-Emitter and Raynor still followed him despite the massive civilian casualties that would've resulted. If he is such a huge moral guardian, why didn't he split then? He only does so when he loses a specific acquaintance. Had Kerrigan survived, Raynor could've easily been part of the Dominion. As I said, "good is dumb".Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
But Aldaris also learnt the price for overreaction and distrust in Eye of the Storm. I guess he just decided to conveniently forget and just "let the hate flow through him" because it felt good and a whole army of Khalai Protoss just decided to help Aldaris attack the people who offered them a safe-haven. As to no-one knowing the truth up until it's too late or even someone spouting a rumour about what it was at the time, it openly suggests that Aldaris didn't tell anyone (is stupid) since there is no other reasonable in-universe reason to explain why no-one has an inkling of the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
What was?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
He was either too gullible and compelled to trust her because of their shared history or that he couldn't risk Kerrigan falling under a rejuvenated Zerg Swarm again. Or maybe he never trusted her at all and saw it pragmatically as a chance to escape from Aiur given that he had no other alternative and felt that if he didn't help her there'd be consequences.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Raynor has never been pure of heart. He tacitly accepted the use of a Psi-Emitter on Antiga and his "conscience" forced him to take a moral stand only when Kerrigan became a victim. So there's something about Kerrigan that clearly affects his judgement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Another possibility is that Raynor may have eventually realised, too late, that he can't just escape from/resist a super-powered telepath who is more dangerous than Mengsk without guaranteeing his death. Maybe he's just staying the course hoping to be relieved at some point whilst not wanting to potentially incur the wrath of an extremely powerful mutant in the meantime. So in his mind it'd not be stupid that he doesn't leave/rebel, it'd be stupid if he did try those things. I must admit though, it's all rather speculative.
*facepalms* You don't get to say "and to think..." statements when you say stuff like this. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Look, my only point in bringing it up was that by Duke's statement, he's clearly not surprised by armed resistance of some kind, and that resistance to Mengsk, in some form or another, exists. The word "militia" means a local, citizen-lead army, after all. Or did you think that people would just listen to Mengsk's speech, go "durrr, mm'kay!" and accept him without question?
Newsflash: even when a side wins a war, and the other side surrenders, the battle isn't over. When Japan surrendered, there were still Japanese military units who were cut off by lack of communication/disbelief in news of surrender that they kept on fighting. Given that the Confederacy was never shown officially surrendering, we have to assume that they didn't, at least until some time after the Terran missions. The more likely scenario is that Mengsk's victories in the first Terran missions only put him in a place where ultimate victory was in sight. The war wasn't over.
Think about it: if Mengsk needed to stop the Protoss from destroying the Zerg he was using, then Mengsk still had plans to use those Zerg against his enemies.
Also, during the last Terran mission -
Arcturus Mengsk: Gentlemen, you've done very well, but remember that we've still got a job to do. The seeds of a new Empire have been sown, and if we hope to reap-
Yeah, definitely sounds like he had no opposition at all to me.
I sort of agree with your position, only I think the UED are less stupid than having Mengsk be an antagonist. They would even work well if they'd been written more plausibly, and if they were shown to be as cruel as they'd have to be to get Raynor to to oppose them.Quote:
At the time BW starts, both the Zerg and Protoss have suffered massive blows such that they are not in a position to continue harassing the Terrans. You have to keep in mind that from the Overmind campaign onward, Mengsk is free to do whatever he wants without harrassment since the Overmind leaves the Terran sector after having found Kerrigan is bent towards destroying the Protoss and the Protoss have stopped interacting witin Terran space because Tassadar felt guilty and went away. There's plenty of time to contrive a scenario where Mengsk actually established himself as the premiere Terran force when BW begins. That the actual BW starts with a Dominion that seems pretty powerful and that the UED target Mengsk as being a major domestic (Terran-related) threat goes to show how prepared the writers were in making Mengsk seem formidable.
Don't get me wrong though. I've always doubted the verisimilitude of Mengsk being so potentially strong so quickly (once again, with FanaticTemplar) but having Mengsk/Dominion as the Terran aggressor/antagonist instead in BW is no worse than having the UED come out of nowhere and disappear without consequence such as they did.
As for your statement about the Zerg, not so much. Yes, they did lose the Overmind, but they breed like roaches. They're weakened, but they're not unthreatening. That, and Mengsk would have no way of knowing about the Overmind's existence, much less his death. Either way, assuming that the Zerg aren't a threat is REALLY stupid, given that they did take over human worlds. Also, because Mengsk used them to attack the Confederacy, there's bound to be a large number of them still around in Terran space.
Not to mention that even if the Zerg aren't attacking them directly, Mengsk still has to cope with all the damage they've done.
The only thing "formidible" about Mengsk is the extent he went to defend himself. Your points only prove that he fortified Korhal, (and potentially that Blizzard retconned him to be more defensively strong than he really was). It doesn't establish that he has a vast system of multi-planet defenses that are as equally mighty as the place he holed up when fleeing the UED. In fact, the very idea that an expeditionary force -- one that needed to steal battlecruisers -- could dispose of a standing leader proves that Mengsk, while hard to get at, didn't have the kind of strength he needed to repel the UED.
No. Not even close. Mengsk was still struggling with his empire, and he's still a selfish pragmatic. The benefits of him trying to conquer everyone else are outweighed by the costs. He cheated in defeating the Confederacy by using the Zerg, and given he can't do the same to the Zerg or 'Toss, he's very obviously a short-term kind of guy. A long term war with two races he knows next to nothing about? Completely irrational for someone in his position.Quote:
You're halfway there. You're right the UED weren't thought out that well but this is also such that Mengsk could've really taken the role of the "Terran antagonist" if they had to have a "Terran antagonist" at all. The tweaks necessary to get Mengsk in that role would be no more difficult to believe or sillier than some of the other stuff that had occur to make the UEDs appearance justified
Actually, it's been stated many times in novels and such that Mengsk funded Korhal at the expense of everywhere else in the Dominion.Quote:
It's not just one base. He has military logistics bases on other worlds and God knows how many shipyards with however many BC's he has at is disposal.
Yes I have. That is, Mengsk has other stuff to deal with (Zerg, opposition, recovery from the events of SC) and it's entirely not in his personality to want to try and conquer races he knows nothing about and can't cheat his way into victory over (like using the Zerg against the Confederacy). Mengsk is insane and not the most intelligent person, but he's exceedingly pragmatic when it comes to personal gain.Quote:
You haven't established why it's worse.
Will defeating the Protoss gain him anything? Only if he can find out where they are, then suffer countless casualties and resource loss over the extent of many years. Victory over the Protoss is bound to be hollow in the eyes of his followers if the cost is too high. And that's assuming he wins. Very likely the Protoss would destroy him, and that's assuming the Zerg don't destroy them both for being dumb enough to fight each other when they're around.
It's much the same with the Zerg, though obviously defeating them is more of a pressing issue, because they can't be reasoned with (Kerrigan slightly aside. Slightly). But think about it. How much does Mengsk as an individual benefit from destroying the Zerg, assuming he could actually do it? (Which he clearly can't, given Duke's herp-derpery on Char) Mengsk is more likely to keep the swarm around to use on his enemies, which would likely lead to the swarm taking advantage of it.
Neither point really matters, though, because Mengsk has too much crap on his plate as far as subduing his opposition and strengthening his empire. Saying he has no authority conflicts after SC is like saying the Protoss have no DT/Khala strife after SC. Nonsensical.
Forgive me for not addressing the rest of your post, this is just getting way too long. I think we can both agree that Raynor's and Fenix's involvment with Kerrigan was stupid and ill-explained, though.
I'm not sure if you're trolling me or just trying to misunderstand on purpose now... so I'm just going to repeat what I wrote and ask that you read it carefully:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
You're position was that the Dominion is having a real tough time (as a reason for not being established) because Duke would be wasting a lot time fighting rebels. That quote you provided alludes to neither having a tough time, Duke fighting anyone nor that they are specifically rebels (the word militia is not even synonymous with rebels and it could just as easily refer to the fighting forces of the KMC or the UP).
I'm not denying that the Dominion didn't/still fight rebels or had some resistance/tough times setting up at all. I'm just denying that all those things can ever be assumed based on that one specific quote from Duke. I'm all for reading into things and speculation but this is a completely different level. Really, your position hinges on that one world, "militia", which is non-specific and isn't even synonymous with "resistance" or "rebels" anyway.
Given that Mengsk being the primary Terran antagonist in BW is a pipe-dream, it's hard to say which is more or less stupid really. I do agree that the UED are poorly implemented as a villain but that they are good idea with potential and roots.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Don't let how BW actually turned out affect your view on what the Zerg would've been capable of at the end of Sc1. BW has the propensity of ignoring any affect the loss of the Overmind had on the Zerg and worse (in terms of story), makes them disproportionately over-powered. A proper BW re-write following on from the Overminds death would have to have all the Zerg Broods being uncoordinated and hostile to everyone equally - including themselves, at the least. Remember that much of the reason why the Zerg had as much success as they did was because they were unified, unlike the Terrans and the Protoss, at the time. Without it, the Zerg can be taken advantage of and/or managed in a way that was not possible before. Don't get me wrong, they'd still be dangerous but they should also be much more vulnerable without the Overmind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
As to the knowledge of the Overmind's existence and that we are speculating on a rewritten BW, one can easily transplant the reason how the UED found about the Overmind to Mengsk. Even then, it's not required for Mengsk to know that. Terran scientists were able to somehow guess at the functions and identify of different Broods (as the manual suggests) when the Overmind was around so I'm sure they can observe the difference in behaviour of the Zerg once the Overmind was killed. Afterall, it's not that hard to make up anything more silly than compared to the conceit they used to explain all of the UED's knowledge of the sector.
He seemed to be doing fine in the BW we got. It's not that hard to re-write it to minimise such damage and chalk it up to how effective Mengsk is as a leader who becomes an eventual threat. It's not as if that's any worse than how they minimised any potential deleterious effect the death of the Overmind had on the Zerg, given that the Zerg threat actually increased (supposedly feral cerebrates and Zerg being coordinated enough to overrun Shakuras - the home of their most dangerous enemy and which needed an all powerful plot device to even stop them) in the BW we got.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
"The best defense is a good offense" is a motto that would seem to fit Mengsk quite nicely. Any potential to make a good defense can easily be reworked into having a good offensive capability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
The Dylarian Shipyards is actually a show of the potential of the K-sector Terran army. Had the UED not attacked, we know that the Dominion would have in excess of 20-30 BCs (including Dukes response force) at the least at their command. That seems pretty impressive for a nascent government that is "supposed" to be weak/unprepared.
The military blockade in The Battle for Braxis is an interesting point you bring up given its extensiveness. It's an odd mission overall. The briefing suggests the blockade would be just "a large group of vessels" as Artanis puts it, not a system of platforms and missiles as we soon see when the mission is actually started. Anyways, given the Dominion already held the planet (it's only captured/raided in the next campaign) and had a major city (Boralis) centred on military logistics there, it's hard to think of why such a thing wouldn't have been detected earlier by the Dominion if the space platform blockade was indeed a wholly new contraption set up by the UED. I can only offer speculation unfortunately, but given the UED's propensity to take-over, subvert and steal stuff off the Dominion to carry themselves along, it's possible that the platform already existed (either as part of the Confederacy or built recently by the Dominion?) and the UED were able to take over it.
Continuing on with this theme, the UED continue to use sneaky maneuvers (their attacks on Boralis), steal assets to support themselves (their attack on the Dylarian Shipyards) and rely on speed (their inability to destroy both nucelar silos and physics labs) in taking down the Dominion/Mengsk. This could suggest that the UED force may not all be that powerful in and of itself but more importantly, that the reason they only succeeded against Mengsk was because of a surgical strike that bypassed the full potential strength that Mengsk was capable of. Afterall, if we compare this with the Overminds defeat in Sc1, do we think the Zerg didn't have the strength to repel the Protoss because they were able to surgically get their way into a striking position against the Overmind itself? No, it's because the majority of that strength was bypassed.
Aren't you the one that keeps insisting that Mengsk is crazy? You seem to accept his idiocy in the BW we got as an extension of his lunacy, it's not that hard to make it such that once he got into power, he wanted more but not only that he wanted to demonstrate it. Besides, he doesn't need to openly declare his attentions as the big bad, he could just subtly announce his arrival by retaking 9 of those 13 worlds the Terrans lost by blasting away the Zerg there. The Protoss can get involved by having what remaining taskforces that are still hovering around monitoring the Zerg on those worlds being targets for the newly unified Terran presence. Hey presto, we have a proper three-way again!Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
As I have been saying right from the start, at the least, having him rewritten as the Terran antagonist in BW will make him the more competent and threatening person that Sc1 suggests than compared to the waste of a character he is in BW and Sc2 that followed. It would also solve the problem of the Terrans having such a minimal stake/being left out when the main thrust of Sc seems to be Zerg vs Protoss. These two things (Mengsk being stupid now and the Terrans having no greater role) you've been lamenting all along could've been fixed this way. Where's your solution? :p
So what? That still doesn't mean that all he had was one base. He had major and important military assets elsewhere like on Braxis and the Dylarian Shipyards. Even if Korhal was the only base/only important asset, he had to build it up from nothing since the world was a complete desert. To have it terraformed and create a vast city that is Augustgrad in the time between Rebel Yell to when we see it The Iron Fist is actually a testament to how powerful Mengsk can be, thereby supporting his potential to easily be an alternate Terran aggressor in a BW rewrite. This is beside the fact that these books come after the fact and none of what they contain can ever be elucidated (speculated sure) using the game alone, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
I've refuted these. "Dealing with Zerg" is a given - it should be easier to manage without the Overmind controlling them (part of the rewrite would be giving the sense the Zerg actually were weakened in anyway). What opposition and their significance of a threat to Mengsk is speculative given the destruction of 9 of 13 worlds and the promise of Terran unity and protection against the aliens responsible would give Mengsk an edge over any other potential political rival/freedom fighter. The actual recovery is a significant point which I would normally concede to you (because it's the reason why I've always held the Terrans as being generally weak -lore-wise- compared to the other two and that any more such losses would spell certain doom for them) but given that the BW was willing to revise and minimise (or a mild retcon if you will) the trouble Mengsk and the Terrans would've realistically had by giving him a sweet setup that the UED had to get though, a BW rewrite could easily use such a justification, too. That the UED got through it is not a measure of the potential of the idea of having Mengsk fulfilling the role of Terran aggressor in a BW rewrite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Mengsk can be both insane and pragmatic when trying to take back the 9 worlds I mentioned in that scenario above. He can see it as a way of securing his powerbase, expand his power and access to resources as well as waging a war on those dastardly xenos who would destroy/take what is rightfully his. It ain't that hard to come up with a justification if you want to include "insane" as a personality trait since anything can be written to be made rationally justifiable to the insane.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Peace of mind and elimination of dangerous threats that inexplicably (to Mengsk) attacked Terran (his) worlds. Besides, these very same concerns you have apply to the UED - the actual Terran antagonists we got.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Now you're just strawmanning me. I never said he had no authority conflicts (sure I may not have been clear enough initially, but it's the second time I've had to say this, explicitly, now) if it wasn't clear enough. Just none that seemed significant or were doing any harm due to the considerable Dominion presence we see possibly existing in BW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
That's ok, I was getting worried about the length too. My fault usually - I'm too verbose. Not many can keep up with my stamina... :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
More than happy for someone else (whoever's keeping up with this, that is) to sub-in!!
Hey man, I'm just explaining my opinion. It's irrational for Mengsk to want to attack other people when he can't gain in the short-term from it, and the apparent strength he exhibits in BW isn't proof of offensive power, but the effort he'll put into protecting his own hide. Given that an expeditionary force and not an established national power defeated Mengsk, he's clearly not as strong as you state him to be.
Dude, Duke's comment about the militia, given when it was during a mission to get battlecruisers, implies that Duke not only had to deal with this exact kind of trouble before, but that people in militias were involved in it. Why else would he bother bringing up the militias if militias weren't relevant to the situation at hand? Clearly, some citizen's armies are less than pleased with Mengsk.
That's the short version, because I'm exhausted of all this. Yes, the writers somehow could amp up Mengsk's ability and give him knowledge of his enemies, but that doesn't make fighting them worth it. Mengsk wants Korhal, and if he has that, he can allow things like Kerrigan running the Zerg or the existence of the Protoss to continue, unless either of those things interfered with his rule. There's no logical reason for Mengsk to go after his enemies immediately after the events of SC.
There is, however, reason for the UED to go after everyone. Granted, it's a stupid reason (to subdue the alien races and establish their control over K Sector humans), but it is a logical reason (in terms of character, not intelligence) to act generally as they did in the Terran missions. Plus, by having an unfamiliar force come in, there's hilarity in watching them find out about Kerrigan very late, like the herp derps they are. The arrogance of a conquering UPL makes sense.
Basically, what I'm saying is that the UED could have worked if they were written better. Mengsk, on the other hand, had more logical problems on his plate, and his arrogance hadn't yet extended over the whole sector. And haven't to this point, either.
Yeah, I know it's your opinion but I'm making a case for a BW rewrite that need not have the UED as the Terran antagonist. Given that most of my justifications of this help rectify some of your biggest concerns about how Mengsk is currently portrayed, I'm not entirely sure why you would resist them so much since the reason why the way he is in Sc2 is all because of the BW we got.
What's so irrational about reclaiming the 9 worlds the Terrans lost in Sc1? There's plenty of "gain" for Mengsk. If not material gain alone, it will help cement public opinion of him, help sell him as a viable Terran leader and a potential threat. At the least, it will give the K-sector Terrans the "teeth" that they've been lacking since Sc1 made them that way from the beginning. Besides, you've likened Mengsk to be irrational/crazy as the justification for just being plain dense in BW, attacking other people for no short term gain would seem like a very BW-Mengsk-thing (irrational/crazy) to do anyway. Which lo and behold he does in Sc2 where he pisses away trillions in fighting Raynor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
No, it's proof that the writers had already intended Mengsk to be somewhat built up and to have the capability of showing strength in some significant capacity. Knowing that, we can tweak their original intent into rewriting Mengsk into an instigator of trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Given that the rewrite denies the existence of the UED and supplants the "Terran antagonist role" with Mengsk/Dominion, what the UED actually does to Mengsk in the BW we got is irrelevant to the rewrite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
This is you reading too much into one word. If you present that quote to a layman, I can guarantee that they'll interpret it along the lines of it meaning "I don't recognise you but stop what you're doing" and not "You're not the usual scum I'm fighting to help maintain my masters nascent government but stop what you're doing".Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Or ever really. You're advocating the stagnation of his character and Terrans in general, then lament on how poorly he's been treated when he tries to do something in Sc2 and how the Terrans don't seem relevant in the "three-way". :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
You've been arguing it's stupid for Mengsk to go after everyone and how that's not OK only to then argue it's stupid for the the UED to go after everyone but that's somehow OK. I don't get it. Both reasons are stupid, how's one more justified than the other? The UED should be worse because they literally came out of nowhere - ala Amon - so anything we attribute to them will seem like contrivance and less "believable".Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
I agree with the UED. They would've worked better as an antagonist (but with no gimmicky plot devices) in a Sc2 rewrite where there'd conceivably be more room to flesh them out. As to Mengsk, well, there's been worse continuations of past events (the Zerg being OP in BW is butone thing) in BW than the thought of tweaking Mengsk's position and stance to make him more prominent in a BW rewrite. It's not even that much worse than the UED we got in BW really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Tura, I didn't want to turn this into a debate. I just wanted to talk about what I wanted in a Starcraft sequel. Besides, Mengsk isn't the only Terran in the K Sector, and neither does him turning into a complete idiot have anything to do with his offensive ability. He was a moron in SC2 because he failed to subdue the media, spread the dumbest of propaganda, and allowed sensitive information to travel by train without destroying it. And also for prioritizing Raynor, but the thing is, Mengsk is capable of destroying Raynor, because Raynor is the leader of one group, rather than an entire race.
But that's neither here nor there. Can we talk about a new SC2 now?
The obvious solution post BW was for Mengsk to try and get stronger, and then go after/allow Raynor to go after Kerrigan. The dumbest thing about him going after Raynor is that he's destroying the only other person that knows for sure how bad Kerrigan is and is equally willing to destroy her. Other than Zeratul, I guess, but it's only sensible for Mengsk to hide his past from the Protoss. The dynamic between Mengsk and Raynor is interesting, and not one that should be quickly thrown away.
As far as offensive power goes, Mengsk should not be the main human antagonist. SC and BW beat into him (and other characters in the series) the idea that fighting non-Zerg characters is a waste of time. After all, everyone in BW spent the entire game fighting the wrong people (the illogic of such situations aside) until the very last mission. After the battle of the three fleets, and the negotiation that clearly went into the attack, the powers of the K Sector would be more likely to work together than otherwise. Thus, Artanis and Arcturus should be on speaking terms. If Mengsk is to become an antagonist, it will be later on. That is, he'll manipulate Artanis as long as/to the extent he is able, and then either betray Artanis directly, or Artanis can get fed up with him. Thus, Mengsk's direct antagonism should be delayed as long as he thinks he can benefit from talks with the Protoss (and Umoja and Moria, depending on where the story goes). And I'd love to see Mengsk actually learn something about what's going on in the universe, what with the hybrids and their origins. That's a logical way to draw Terrans into things above them.
The solution, if there has to be human antagonism earlier on, is that new characters appear to pick up the slack. These new characters can be literally anything -- Umoja, Moria, some form of rebels, a new power that threatens Mengsk's rule, the UED, or just whoever can be plausibly antagonistic to the other characters, in the form of creating anti-Terran missions. Maybe there needs to be some anti-alien groups out there to undermine the peace talks Mengsk is trying to arrange with the 'Toss. There's a million possiblities.
Anyway, what it all boils down to is that over time, it becomes less and less likely that the powers of the K Sector (Kerrigan/Zerg aside) are going to fight each other over simple disagreements. The Protoss are struggling for survival, Mengsk is struggling to maintain his power, and the Zerg are ever present. One main reason Blizzard's been struggling to write a good ending is that it's very difficult to maintain a logical story and still fit within the premise of three races duking it out for the K Sector. As much as they've sucked at the writing, we shouldn't deny that it's a difficult task.
We were doing that up until I commented on Mengsk's inanity/ineffectiveness in BW and how that can actually explain/is consistent with how stupid Mengsk is in Sc2 - and then you disagreed. If you wanted to rewrite Sc2's Mengsk, you have to start from BW. Naturally, I suggested how one could go about that. How would you go about making Mengsk a viable threat in SC2 if we are to keep the Mengsk we had in BW? I'd assume you'd have to take a few liberties and a partial revision (or retcons if you'd prefer), just like I did when speculating on fixing Mengsk from when he actually started going off the rails: BW!Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Right, so now I'm going to play the role you previously did in trying to shoot down my potential BW rewrite of Mengsk. First things first, how do we even know that Mengsk can even get back his power after having his Dominion dismantled and been humiliated so thoroughly in BW? He has to resort buying a fleet with favours only to lose it and only has a smouldering ruin of a planet to go back to. Given how fickle the Terran lot are, Mengsk had run his course in proving to the masses that he was a capable leader and they would have flocked to someone else by now. The precedent for that rationale? Well Mengsk himself of course set that precedent when he took over from the Confederacy. I can't see why Mengsk would be immune from that apart from plot-armour and author convenience reasons (which to me, is rather telling).Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
In essence, the least of his problems is Raynor. And, given that Raynor is supposedly railing on (or rather displacing his anger onto) Mengsk because he can't realistically vent his anger and frustration against Kerrigan and the Zerg (a character development that is justifiable but never hinted at or explored in Sc2 - it just happened sometime and are somehow expected to know that it did happen from the get-go), Mengsk is least likely to go after Raynor due to his dire position at the end of BW and that it's really Raynor who has more motivation to gun for him first. If Raynor is harrying Mengsk soon after BW and given Mengsk's weakened state from the end of BW, the believability of him being in a significant threat or a viable character in 4 years time would be very unlikely. That's why they had to minimise/ignore the damage done to the Dominion in BW and retcon the extent of the Terran presence in the K-sector for Sc2.
This I can agree on. In Sc2, Mengsk makes for a very poor antagonist and yet we had to suffer with two installments with him being such until he was mercifully taken out of the picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Eh, not entirely sold on the Mengsk/Artanis thing. It tends to make the Protoss even more of butt-monkey should they be yet fooled again - especially when this time, it's against a normal human which they would have a better chance of mind-reading! Besides, wouldn't have Raynor's stories about his experiences with Mengsk to Tassadar and Zeratul leaked to Artanis by now? Also, I don't see how the Protoss would benefit with any arrangement with the Terrans given that they're a lesser race that they shouldn't need to interact with anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
As to involving Mengsk with the Hybrids, well, given the Terrans are meant to be out of touch with the true nature behind the Zerg and Protoss conflict and that Mengsk being preoccupied with other things to do, his involvement with them will only reek of contrivance. If you wanted the Hybrids somehow affiliated with the Terrans, I think it would've been better to tie them to another Terran faction like the Umojans.
Really, there doesn't need to be a Terran antagonist at all. Well, not to create anti-Terran missions at the least since the Terrans have always been on the receiving end of crap (and it's mostly been their own crap) and that's not going to change. Besides, when I envisaged Mengsk to be the Terran antagonist as replacement for the UED, I didn't want him to be the conqueror type antagonist that the UED were (the BW rewrite would be wonky if the Terran antagonist was just a cut and paste job, even though that possibly is really no less silly than what we got with actual BW) were but rather just an inadvertent one to show that the Terrans had backbone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Which is why I thought Sc was better off ending it at BW. I know it was far from perfect but they dug themselves in a hole by making the Zerg too OP and Kerrigan too dominant. The only logical sequel that could follow from that was that Kerrigan would always be top-dog and continually keep the Protoss and the Terrans from ever rising to a position of ever realistically challenging her. It's why Sc2 (and any other sequel idea really) had to reek of contrivance in order to continue. It's also probably one of the reasons why I shoot down my own ideas for a sequel rewrite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
*Sigh* I'm just shooting off ideas, man. I don't want this to be a debate/quote fest. But in any case, yeah, maybe we don't need a Terran antagonist. In a story sense, that is. In a gameplay sense, well, the game has to match the premise.
Eh, while it's true that Mengsk probably would have political competition, I don't quite buy the argument that he wouldn't be able to maintain power after BW. It depends on how he spun the whole UED thing. From the general public's perspective, it may well be that Mengsk, the "great and the magnificent", was ousted by the "evil" UED, an extension of the UPL's attempts to control everything. Mengsk's return could have been hailed as a sign that he was back to save everybody, and the UED couldn't keep him down. But either way, with or without competition, it really does depend more on how it's written. If you have any gameplay interesting ideas that involve Mengsk dealing with rivals, by all means, share.
My point in that paragraph was mainly just to say that Mengsk would care more about eliminating Kerrigan than Raynor, and Raynor would care more about killing Kerrigan than going on an out of character revolution. 'Sall. Basically I just want more scenes of them bickering at each other.
Hm...I don't know, I think the Umojans need more development on their own before they get connected to the hybrids. I don't really see how it's any less of a contrivance than Mengsk -- or how either is really a contrivance at all. That, and I think it's funny to imagine Mengsk's reaction to things that are outside of his realm of understanding.
I disagree with ending it at BW, if only because the story needed some kind of end (though your point is certainly understandible). Honestly, the whole Starcraft: Ghost thing might have been a great idea, as it took Starcraft from an RTS to a shooter, and changing
the game genre enables them to change the way they tell the story. Too bad it didn't work out.
The main problem with continuing on with Mengsk just being in power as he was before the UED is that it seems contrived after the complete battering he took in BW. He literally needs to shrug off the consequence of what the UED did to him and that Mengsk be infallible despite being proven to be wholly inadequate as a defender of the Terran people - which is incidentally what Sc2 did. It has also has to treat the remaining K-sector Terran people as being idiotic for backing him again when he lost all his currency/any sense of worth in BW. That's the only way to write Mengsk and still have him relevant and that's what I have against Mengsk being so "lucky".Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
If I had to write something following on from BW, Mengsk would be left as a footnote who just sits on his world of Korhal not having the power to do anything with Kerrigan making sure that this is so and the Terrans just being in shambles in general. There would be a few Terran leaders from other factions trying to vie for position of top-dog but not one person who is strong or capable enough to unify the Terrans.
Oh, that's Ok then. Thing is, given the futility of both Mengsk's and Raynor's vendettas against Kerrigan, it's not unreasonable for one or both of them to give up with Raynor probably being the first since he lacks more resources than Mengsk. Also, Kerrigan has burnt all her bridges with Mengsk and Raynor such that even if they did by chance meet again somehow, she probably won't even deign talk to them nor would they have anything more significant to say than "I really want you dead". Therefore, it's conceivable then that Raynor would vent his rage toward the next and more "gettable" target of Mengsk. Now this may sound like I'm defending WoL here, but I'm not. What I've just written about Raynor's change of target is really assumed knowledge that Blizz/WoL expects of its audience but is by no means contiguous with the last thing shown in BW. Technically, Raynor's revolution against Mengsk is not an impossible development but one that lack connective tissue - it feels like an important piece of the picture had been left out for some reason. That's what's irksome about "character development" that happens off-screen, you can't expect people to take it on faith without any sort of preface.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Well, I thought I made it clear that everything about a Starcraft sequel is nothing but contrivance, so my suggestion was not free from that assessment either. All I was trying to say (without actually hinting at it admittedly), was that if we had to continue, continue with something we don't know about but has been there in the lore. With the Hybrids, you can keep them under Duran's auspices but have him in league with the Umojans instead of the Dominion, where he can make use of their secretive nature and their scientific acumen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Be careful here. Do you mean an ending in general or an ending based on a certain expectation? Because really, I was also happy for Sc to end with The Fall and the Protoss being victorious, too. In some ways, I didn't feel BW was necessary for it to continue, but I don't begrudge the ending that BW gave us as being possibly a definitive ending for that universe. Everything was leading up to and spelling out doom and gloom for everyone and everything that was not Zerg and that's what we got - it seemed more definitive than the ending we got in Sc1 because it was so willing to keep the status quo broken whereas the ending of Sc1's was a return to status quo (up until BW came along and negated that). Sure, it's not a happy ending but who says every ending has to be happy and that things have to be tied into a nice little knot? I mean I've heard people complain about the ending of Breaking Bad being too neat and somewhat antithetic to the concept (which is very cynical) of the show but it still worked as an ending.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
There's definite plot-value in what you're saying, but Mengsk is really too interesting a character too ignore. Given that this is the guy who used the Zerg twice to get what he wants, I'd say there's no way he'd let himself become a footnote. He's too demented for that sort of thing, and he'll have some kind of loyal following until he's either put on trial for his crimes or just outright killed. It's just who he is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
I don't know. Raynor's a southerner archetype, and southerners don't really do the whole revolution thing, so long as we have some place to live independently. Only if that independence is threatened do we bother attacking other people. We don't even say the word "revolution" unless that's followed by an "--ary war." That's not a conscious choice, but it's a thing.Quote:
Oh, that's Ok then. Thing is, given the futility of both Mengsk's and Raynor's vendettas against Kerrigan, it's not unreasonable for one or both of them to give up with Raynor probably being the first since he lacks more resources than Mengsk. Also, Kerrigan has burnt all her bridges with Mengsk and Raynor such that even if they did by chance meet again somehow, she probably won't even deign talk to them nor would they have anything more significant to say than "I really want you dead". Therefore, it's conceivable then that Raynor would vent his rage toward the next and more "gettable" target of Mengsk. Now this may sound like I'm defending WoL here, but I'm not. What I've just written about Raynor's change of target is really assumed knowledge that Blizz/WoL expects of its audience but is by no means contiguous with the last thing shown in BW. Technically, Raynor's revolution against Mengsk is not an impossible development but one that lack connective tissue - it feels like an important piece of the picture had been left out for some reason. That's what's irksome about "character development" that happens off-screen, you can't expect people to take it on faith without any sort of preface.
But yeah, Raynor is more likely to hold a grudge, because he's more idealistic than pragmatic (as opposed to Mengsk). However, neither of these are the kind of men that would say something and then not follow through. They will do something against Kerrigan -- or would have, if SC2 had been forced to make sense.
Mm'kay. Yeah, hybrid association with the Dominion was a retcon anyway. Unless they plan on pinning that on Valerian, it's dumb. Mengsk is the last person to hybridize two races, particularly the two ones that give him the most trouble.Quote:
Well, I thought I made it clear that everything about a Starcraft sequel is nothing but contrivance, so my suggestion was not free from that assessment either. All I was trying to say (without actually hinting at it admittedly), was that if we had to continue, continue with something we don't know about but has been there in the lore. With the Hybrids, you can keep them under Duran's auspices but have him in league with the Umojans instead of the Dominion, where he can make use of their secretive nature and their scientific acumen.
...I mean a good ending. Not quite sure what you mean by "certain expectation." While ending with "The Fall" makes perfect sense, the success of Starcraft pretty much guaranteed it wasn't going to end there.Quote:
Be careful here. Do you mean an ending in general or an ending based on a certain expectation? Because really, I was also happy for Sc to end with The Fall and the Protoss being victorious, too. In some ways, I didn't feel BW was necessary for it to continue, but I don't begrudge the ending that BW gave us as being possibly a definitive ending for that universe. Everything was leading up to and spelling out doom and gloom for everyone and everything that was not Zerg and that's what we got - it seemed more definitive than the ending we got in Sc1 because it was so willing to keep the status quo broken whereas the ending of Sc1's was a return to status quo (up until BW came along and negated that). Sure, it's not a happy ending but who says every ending has to be happy and that things have to be tied into a nice little knot? I mean I've heard people complain about the ending of Breaking Bad being too neat and somewhat antithetic to the concept (which is very cynical) of the show but it still worked as an ending.
Mengsk was interesting. He can't use the Zerg anymore, because Kerrigan is in full control of them and it's not as if he has much choice in not being a foot note because Kerrigan's vendetta against him is includes making sure he never rises to power again (as she says in BW).Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Raynor would seem to disagree: "Let's kick this revolution into overdrive!" :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
Either way, exchange the word with rebellion, open hostility or vendetta if it doesn't suit. The original point still makes sense.
Oh, I'm sure both would have tried to keep their word - which is something I would have like to see as a means of continuity - but Sc2 goes along with the assumed knowledge that while they did try, the task was impossible and so they reverted to easier targets such as each other. I guess that's to be expected when you put in an arbitrary 4 years in which nothing at all happened.
It's hard to know when the association started, so it could've been a fairly recently development. Besides, I get the feeling that Mengsk and Valerian aren't actually aware of the Hybrids specifically and that Narud had only been using the Dominion's resources and the Moebius Foundation as a cover to hide his work with them. If that's the case, we could've transplanted them to another Terran faction as a means to explore some of the more neglected Terran aspects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa
A "good ending" is relative and usually entails certain expectations (namely yours) that have to be met to be considered "good". Given that Starcraft's story, on a very broad level, is about a conflict that embroils three groups the ending of SC1 makes it such that the three groups have all fought themselves to a standstill - sure the story could continue, but it doesn't need to. In BW, where we have the forced continuation of SC1, the ending is even more definitive than the first in that the 3-way conflict that the premise is based on is shattered forever with one of the groups being the outstanding and most dominant victor. Any such continuation from here would be more difficult since it'd likely be unidirectional and therefore pointless unless contrivances were to occur - which is what Sc2 had to utilise in order to continue. An ending to a story should be just that, and end - it shouldn't feel beholden to continue because of financial reasons or for the sake of continuance or for the sake to appease a certain section of fans. There's a reason why sequelitis exists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissa