Writing a New Starcraft 2 storyline

Printable View

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

02-17-2015, 10:44 PM
Turalyon

Re: Writing a New Starcraft 2 storyline

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

Assuming that a game was set directly after Brood War, it's entirely possible that Kerrigan was too busy dealing with everything else in BW to handle all the cerebrates.

Given that all the major powers had expended what force they had attacking Kerrigan only to end up either being totally smashed entirely (UED) or to go back to the safety and comfort of their ruined homeworlds, I'd say Kerrigan would have had plenty of time to chase down any errant cerebrates afterwards. It's not as if Kerrigan would've wanted to let all her hard-work getting that power in the first place being potentially undone. Besides, she wouldn't have had anything to do from then on except maybe sit around doing nothing for 4 years. Oh yeah, that's what she actually ended up doing anyway... Silly me!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

Besides, by cerebrate, I also mean cerebrate analogue. Like, Kerrigan breeds some sort of creature that functions like a cerebrate, but serves as the basis of her extending her control over the swarm, just like how the Overmind used cerebrates. Also, there's no particular need for any of them to rebel, so long as they exist and are interesting characters.

But that's exactly what the Broodmothers are (or maybe supposed to be?). As to the matter of them being interesting, well, it's probably because Blizz didn't really do that much to make them anymore interesting or conceptually any different than what the initial cerebrates were. When we first see them in Sc2, they're already just there fulfilling the cerebrate role like they did before and everything was hunky-dory. Only in HotS do we get a possibility of a rebellious Broodmother but it's short-lived and it turns out their pretty easily swayed to go back on Kerrigan's side, so go figure.

Course, this doesn't mean it would stop you from writing an alternate sequel about the trouble Kerrigan had making and controlling the first Broodmother and how it ended up being her downfall. It'd be a nice riff on that "you're your own worst enemy" theme, give you some Zerg-on-Zerg and a way to bring them back to their roots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

Actually, this relates back to the weakening of Arcturus Mengsk and other characters. See, in SC/BW the tension was really high at all times because there was always a threat on top of a threat. Mengsk is bad, but he's as bad as Kerrigan. Kerrigan's bad, but she's not as bad as the hybrids. It's no wonder characters like Zeratul and Raynor are totally depressed. There's just no end to the evil around them.

SC2, however, sees the weakening of all evil. The Overmind wasn't a single-minded conquerer, but a pawn of generic bad guy voice. Mengsk isn't an evil mofo who says the creepiest things, he's lame propaganda spouting weaking dude. Duran isn't an awesome black guy on the cusp of some great master plan, but a generic white guy who submits to people beneath him again for no reason, and may in fact be dead now.

Basically, all I'm saying is that I want a really scary bad guy in the plot again. Someone who isn't typical, but is entirely and intelligently focused on his evil plans.

To be fair, the weakening of Mengsk happened in BW - he kind of lost his mojo there and stopped feeling like a threat anyone could take seriously. If anything, Sc2/WoL bumped him up a bit more as a possible physical threat even though that type of threat, in practice, still retained that ineffectual, "toothless tiger" feel we initially got from BW. This is partially why it's so unsatisfactory to have him be the villain across 2 entries of Sc2.

The weakening of the Overmind is just shameful because it's not just at it's expense to prop up some other dude, it also had the double-effect of gutting what the Zerg were all about in the first place. Hence, the need to introduce the Primal Zerg to prop them back up. But, the problem with the Primal Zerg is the same as it is with Amon - it's the assumption that they were always supposed be like that. They're essentially saying the Zerg are not the Zerg by undermining and re-imagining wholesale the initial concept of the Zerg altogether.

As to Duran and Narud, they're threat level is really attributed and tied into the Hybrids and Amon. Given the indifference I already show toward the uninspired threat that is Amon, I shouldn't be expected to really care much more about his underlings either, honestly. Sure, Duran/Narud (could be two different people) may have a different agenda and be genuine threats on their own, but given there's been so little exploration of either and what they will reveal will still come off as a tomato surprise, I'd still wouldn't expect any interesting villainy to come from them in the end.
02-18-2015, 08:52 PM
Nissa

Re: Writing a New Starcraft 2 storyline

I disagree about Mengsk in BW. Thing about it is, BW was all about threat on top of threat. Mengsk needed time to recover from SC's events, in which he had to maintain control of the Dominion (note Duke's references to mini-rebellions in BW). The more organized UED was bound to cause trouble, particularly given that Mengsk tends to treat his people like resources that can be disposed of at any moment. As far as being weaker than Kerrigan goes, that's just thematically necessary. He had to have created a worse monster than himself. Besides, his greed for Korhal was what made him work with Kerrigan, and given that he's not above sending Zerg against humans, there's no way he's above allying with Kerrigan. He wasn't so much afraid of her (though he probably was at least a little) but rather that he preferred to take advantage of the opportunity. Or "opportunity", as it were.

I think I see your point, though.

Besides, part of what I mean by strength is character strength. Mengsk was a delightful mofo in SC/BW, and in SC2 he was Mr. Cliche with a voice actor far superior to the requirements of his lines. Mengsk's lines earlier were scary and fun. I want more characters with scary lines.

Don't even get me started on Duran. The whole "Narud" thing was such a reversal of what made everything Duran good that I still can't wrap my head around what exactly SC2 was trying to do with the Narud character. Aside from attempting to pin the blame for the hybrids on one of the Mengsk boys.
02-19-2015, 01:45 AM
Turalyon

Re: Writing a New Starcraft 2 storyline

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

Mengsk needed time to recover from SC's events, in which he had to maintain control of the Dominion (note Duke's references to mini-rebellions in BW).

Must have missed that reference to mini-rebellions... either that or it wasn't attributed to Duke.

What was there to recover from on Mengsk's side (the SoK) after Rebel Yell? He withdrew his forces and used the Zerg to demolish the Confeds and whatever army would've been stationed there to protect it. Given that the Terrans are in complete shambles at that point (that 9 out of 13 worlds thing), Mengsk and the SoK, are by default, the most powerful Terran faction and in an opportunity to take control of whatever is left.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

The more organized UED was bound to cause trouble, particularly given that Mengsk tends to treat his people like resources that can be disposed of at any moment.

And for some, this is where the rub is. Really, there was nothing stopping the writers from having BW without the UED in the sense that the "general threat of a Terran force"-role could've easily been attributed to Mengsk. One would have to somewhat tweak the extent of the losses the Terrans suffered, remove Duke's bumbling attempts in Overmind and The Fall and accentuate the weakness of the Zerg and the Protoss from the losses they took in order to get the K-sector Terrans a chance to become an equal, let alone a threat, to the other races but it would be ideal if one wanted to sell the effectiveness of Mengsk as a real player/threat.

Funny thing about this is that I've actually argued against the very notion I'm putting down here in a previous thread (with FanaticTemplar no less) being realistically possible in that universe, but it does have merit because it would be a means to keep the K-sector specific Terrans more relevant without having to resorting to some outside influence (like how the UED could've been used - but were not)/plot device to bolster them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

As far as being weaker than Kerrigan goes, that's just thematically necessary. He had to have created a worse monster than himself. Besides, his greed for Korhal was what made him work with Kerrigan, and given that he's not above sending Zerg against humans, there's no way he's above allying with Kerrigan. He wasn't so much afraid of her (though he probably was at least a little) but rather that he preferred to take advantage of the opportunity. Or "opportunity", as it were.

Besides, part of what I mean by strength is character strength. Mengsk was a delightful mofo in SC/BW, and in SC2 he was Mr. Cliche with a voice actor far superior to the requirements of his lines. Mengsk's lines earlier were scary and fun. I want more characters with scary lines.

I have no qualms about the "creating a monster worse than yourself" dynamic between Mengsk and Kerrigan and that it resulting in Mengsk having to be on the shitty end of the stick... if it were done well. In BW, Kerrigan is really only the more threatening of the two because of Mengsk having none of the mojo that so characterised him in Sc1. His surrender to the UED is just ridiculous when he then goes on to threaten them from a position of no power and is shocked that they'll execute him for being, and admitting, to be an uncontrollable threat (especially when Mengsk has likely done so many a time to others for lesser crimes). Having him being so blinded by greed and so trusting in Kerrigan's "deal" (even when he says, or rather lampshades very poorly, that she isn't trustworthy) such that he is genuinely surprised at Kerrigan's expected treachery is baffling. All these just make Mengsk seem like a bonafide idiot. Having everything taken from him would've been familiar ground for Mengsk and should've spurred the type of Mengsk that eventually made the SoK feared and the one that was so calculating in Sc1 (which wasn't so long ago), not this buffonish, narrow-minded man we have in BW. It's as if Mengsk was never the intelligent man we thought he was in Sc1 but that it was just a mask which he took off and never put back on (because he was too dumb most likely).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

Don't even get me started on Duran. The whole "Narud" thing was such a reversal of what made everything Duran good that I still can't wrap my head around what exactly SC2 was trying to do with the Narud character. Aside from attempting to pin the blame for the hybrids on one of the Mengsk boys.

All the stuff pertaining to the Hybrids is quite (and probably the most) mind-numbingly inane in Sc2 to me, so it's not really surprising to have the Narud character appear and just fizzle into nothing. Besides, they can still resort to denying that Narud was actually Duran if they really had to or whatever. Beyond that, meh.
02-20-2015, 02:14 AM
Nissa

Re: Writing a New Starcraft 2 storyline

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turalyon

Must have missed that reference to mini-rebellions... either that or it wasn't attributed to Duke.

Uh, it was during the mission in BW where the UED was trying to get the battlecruisers, and they happen to run into Duke, who mentions some rebellions.

Quote:

What was there to recover from on Mengsk's side (the SoK) after Rebel Yell? He withdrew his forces and used the Zerg to demolish the Confeds and whatever army would've been stationed there to protect it. Given that the Terrans are in complete shambles at that point (that 9 out of 13 worlds thing), Mengsk and the SoK, are by default, the most powerful Terran faction and in an opportunity to take control of whatever is left.

I admit I'm entirely confused on the exact standing of the Terran worlds. Between SC2 and the novels, I can't keep it all straight. Are you absolutely sure the 13 worlds thing came from the game or the manual?

Aside from that, there are many presumables of what Mengsk had to do after established his dominance over the Confederacy. He had to stem the damage he caused by using the Zerg to attack his enemies (and since he intended them to reunite under him, any survivors are default something he has to care about), boost Korhal economically as his new capital, create some form of government to replace the one he destroyed, manage some defense against the Zerg, and compensate for sending Duke and Duke's forces to Char. Plus the rebels Duke mentioned. There's a ton of things there to keep him occupied.

Quote:

And for some, this is where the rub is. Really, there was nothing stopping the writers from having BW without the UED in the sense that the "general threat of a Terran force"-role could've easily been attributed to Mengsk. One would have to somewhat tweak the extent of the losses the Terrans suffered, remove Duke's bumbling attempts in Overmind and The Fall and accentuate the weakness of the Zerg and the Protoss from the losses they took in order to get the K-sector Terrans a chance to become an equal, let alone a threat, to the other races but it would be ideal if one wanted to sell the effectiveness of Mengsk as a real player/threat.

Funny thing about this is that I've actually argued against the very notion I'm putting down here in a previous thread (with FanaticTemplar no less) being realistically possible in that universe, but it does have merit because it would be a means to keep the K-sector specific Terrans more relevant without having to resorting to some outside influence (like how the UED could've been used - but were not)/plot device to bolster them.

I'm fine with Starcraft with or without the UED. They definitely are are plot manipulation, though. Thing is, besides Mengsk being busy with his own things (see the list I mentioned) and the Protoss being busy trying to survive, there's no reason for the two not to agree to a cease-fire. Potentially it's the beginning of a period of cooperation between the two.

That, however, is the in-world explanation. In a literary sense, it kills a lot of tension for the Terrans and Protoss to be less of a threat to each other. Given that Starcraft is, on the tin, a game where three races duke it out for dominance, there's going to have to be missions where the two fight, and a logical reason for doing so. Mengsk wouldn't attack unless he had a demi-pragmatic motive, and the Protoss won't because it's a waste of time and resources, given their situation.

So the UED were made to fill the gap. They also serve to allow Kerrigan to trick other people into fighting them instead of her, though that would have worked better if Blizzard had established better that the UED really is composed of evil mofos. As is, the UED seemed better than Mengsk, at least a little.

...I need to do a post on how DuGalle's and Stukov's characters were completely manipulated into being whatever the plot wanted them to be.

Quote:

I have no qualms about the "creating a monster worse than yourself" dynamic between Mengsk and Kerrigan and that it resulting in Mengsk having to be on the shitty end of the stick... if it were done well. In BW, Kerrigan is really only the more threatening of the two because of Mengsk having none of the mojo that so characterised him in Sc1. His surrender to the UED is just ridiculous when he then goes on to threaten them from a position of no power and is shocked that they'll execute him for being, and admitting, to be an uncontrollable threat (especially when Mengsk has likely done so many a time to others for lesser crimes). Having him being so blinded by greed and so trusting in Kerrigan's "deal" (even when he says, or rather lampshades very poorly, that she isn't trustworthy) such that he is genuinely surprised at Kerrigan's expected treachery is baffling. All these just make Mengsk seem like a bonafide idiot. Having everything taken from him would've been familiar ground for Mengsk and should've spurred the type of Mengsk that eventually made the SoK feared and the one that was so calculating in Sc1 (which wasn't so long ago), not this buffonish, narrow-minded man we have in BW. It's as if Mengsk was never the intelligent man we thought he was in Sc1 but that it was just a mask which he took off and never put back on (because he was too dumb most likely).

Mengsk didn't surrender to the UED. He holed himself up in his thickest defenses, then tried to escape. He failed simply because the UED was stronger/smarter. Play the missions, man.

I don't recall Mengsk threatening them, but it is well within character for Mengsk to pretend to be greater/more important than he really is. In fact, that's the whole basis of his character. He's so focused on being a great, beloved leader, that he's willing to go to any extent to make people think he really is that way. That, and presumably he's trying to keep his dignity. It's actually kinda cute how he and DuGalle were being all formal with each other, particularly when DuGalle knew he didn't deserve it.

As for him allying with Kerrigan, I took that for another attempt at getting Korhal back. After all, at that point it was occupied by the UED, and he might as well work with Kerrigan to get it. Honestly, I'm fascinated by Mengsk's insanity. He'll do whatever it takes to get what he wants, including act like a huge fool. Mengsk wasn't working with her out of weakness, per se, but rather that he found it a suitable trade to give Kerrigan what she wanted so he could get Korhal. Mengsk likely didn't give a thought to what would happen after.

But to be fair, in the Zerg missions, Mengsk's (and Raynor's and Fenix's) positions weren't explained all that well. Plus we already knew Kerrigan was a traitor, but they didn't. None of them knew what went down on Shakuras, otherwise she couldn't have tricked them. I can't emphasize enough that the characters don't see what the player sees. You'd be shocked how many people on ff.net (and in Blizzard official novels) don't seem to get that.

Quote:

All the stuff pertaining to the Hybrids is quite (and probably the most) mind-numbingly inane in Sc2 to me, so it's not really surprising to have the Narud character appear and just fizzle into nothing. Besides, they can still resort to denying that Narud was actually Duran if they really had to or whatever. Beyond that, meh.

Yeah, that about sums it up.
02-20-2015, 03:27 AM
Hawki

Re: Writing a New Starcraft 2 storyline

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turalyon

Must have missed that reference to mini-rebellions... either that or it wasn't attributed to Duke.

DUKE Well, now. I don't know which militia you all are from, but I advise ya' to back down... NOW! I'm General Edmund Duke of the Dominion armada. And in the name of Emperor Mengsk, I order you to surrender your forces immediately and unconditionally.

STUKOV Ah, General Duke. I expected your forces to arrive sooner. You should know that we represent not one of your rag-tag peasant Militias, but the combined might of the United Earth Directorate.

DUKE Earth Directorate? You mean to tell me you've come all the way out here from Earth?

STUKOV That is correct, General. We're here to take control over this sector and its occupants for the betterment of mankind.

DUKE Over my dead body. I don't care where yer' from, son. No one pushes around the Terran Dominion on my watch! All units, fire at will!

There isn't a reference. That's everything Duke says.

Y'know, I really can't be arsed to go through the motions, but if there's going to be a debate at all, it might as well be accurate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

Play the missions, man.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HD8ZtM1sWgI
02-20-2015, 05:16 AM
Turalyon

Re: Writing a New Starcraft 2 storyline

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

Uh, it was during the mission in BW where the UED was trying to get the battlecruisers, and they happen to run into Duke, who mentions some rebellions.

I made sure I read through the transcript before replying previously. There is nothing about Duke saying he was actually fighting rebellions. All he says is that he doesn't know which militia they come, demands their surrender, expresses confusion about them coming from Earth, followed by indifference and lastly, an order to attack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

Are you absolutely sure the 13 worlds thing came from the game or the manual?

Yes, both in the manual and game of Sc1 (see the prologue to the Overmind campaign).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

Aside from that, there are many presumables of what Mengsk had to do after established his dominance over the Confederacy. He had to stem the damage he caused by using the Zerg to attack his enemies (and since he intended them to reunite under him, any survivors are default something he has to care about), boost Korhal economically as his new capital, create some form of government to replace the one he destroyed, manage some defense against the Zerg, and compensate for sending Duke and Duke's forces to Char. Plus the rebels Duke mentioned. There's a ton of things there to keep him occupied.

I never doubted this or that it'd be easy for Mengsk but he did manage to get this all done by the time BW starts. As to the UED being more powerful than Mengsk in a straight-match-up from the time we first see them in BW, there are some arguments against this notion: The UED need Duran's aid in their attack on Boralis, they need to commandeer BC's at the Dylarian shipyards before they can fight off Duke and only have time to go the silos or physics labs when both can easily be reached on the battlefield they were fighting in. Either way, it seems Mengsk's Dominion was quite developed and a formidable force for the UED to have to get through.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

Thing is, besides Mengsk being busy with his own things (see the list I mentioned) and the Protoss being busy trying to survive, there's no reason for the two not to agree to a cease-fire. Potentially it's the beginning of a period of cooperation between the two.

That, however, is the in-world explanation. In a literary sense, it kills a lot of tension for the Terrans and Protoss to be less of a threat to each other. Given that Starcraft is, on the tin, a game where three races duke it out for dominance, there's going to have to be missions where the two fight, and a logical reason for doing so. Mengsk wouldn't attack unless he had a demi-pragmatic motive, and the Protoss won't because it's a waste of time and resources, given their situation.

So the UED were made to fill the gap. They also serve to allow Kerrigan to trick other people into fighting them instead of her, though that would have worked better if Blizzard had established better that the UED really is composed of evil mofos. As is, the UED seemed better than Mengsk, at least a little.

Given that Mengsk seems quite established (it's never explained but we have to assume that the time from the start of Overmind to the end of The Stand was spent very well considering Mengsk's position) and that the Protoss are getting ever weaker in BW, I could easily see Mengsk wanting to take further steps to make sure the Terran position is safe and be the Terran aggressor instead of the UED. He has no reason to let the Protoss off considering they seemed willing to burn their worlds previously without warning or explanation. If his utter ruthlessness and inauguration speech is any indication, I'm sure he'll want to make steps to try and prevent that from potentially happening again and wanting to exact some form of repayment in kind if he could.

If we had Mengsk in the UED role, we wouldn't have to have half of the Terran missions having to be TvT. We'd also avoid having Mengsk be an idiot as well. Kerrigan can still trick Raynor into helping her against Mengsk and the Protoss against the renegade cerebrates, so nothing much really changes on her end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

...I need to do a post on how DuGalle's and Stukov's characters were completely manipulated into being whatever the plot wanted them to be.

Please do but one could arguably say that for some of the other characters in BW, too. Look at how they treated poor Aldaris....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

Mengsk didn't surrender to the UED. He holed himself up in his thickest defenses, then tried to escape. He failed simply because the UED was stronger/smarter. Play the missions, man.

Poor choice of word on my part - I was using it to describe Mengsk's weaselly attempts at parleying with the UED as some form of capitulation on his part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

I don't recall Mengsk threatening them, but it is well within character for Mengsk to pretend to be greater/more important than he really is. In fact, that's the whole basis of his character. He's so focused on being a great, beloved leader, that he's willing to go to any extent to make people think he really is that way. That, and presumably he's trying to keep his dignity. It's actually kinda cute how he and DuGalle were being all formal with each other, particularly when DuGalle knew he didn't deserve it.

Call it a boast or passive-aggressive threat or whatever, but when Mengsk nonchalantly says "I'll overthrow you as well" when they have him dead to rights, that's not exactly a smart thing to say especially if you're wanting to expect a pleasant/non-reactionary reply in return.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

As for him allying with Kerrigan, I took that for another attempt at getting Korhal back. After all, at that point it was occupied by the UED, and he might as well work with Kerrigan to get it. Honestly, I'm fascinated by Mengsk's insanity. He'll do whatever it takes to get what he wants, including act like a huge fool. Mengsk wasn't working with her out of weakness, per se, but rather that he found it a suitable trade to give Kerrigan what she wanted so he could get Korhal. Mengsk likely didn't give a thought to what would happen after.

Oh, I don't mind Mengsk becoming an actual nutter but remember the reason why I even brought this up: it's about the validity of Mengsk being a credible threat. If he is as short-sighted and dim-witted (I mean honestly, Mengsk what can you immediately do with a smoldering ruin of a world once Kerrigan deems it's yours? She'll move onto the secondary plan that you already knew about: of exacting revenge on you, you idiot, that's what!) as BW reveals he truly is, we really can't expect him to be a credible threat in Sc2 either.

Besides, a smart man/Sc1 Mengsk would've known that Kerrigan couldn't get anywhere without his help - her threat of jailing him forever should he not comply is pretty hollow when her goals are more time-constrained than his. This is when he could've used that leverage to some effect. But no, he just goes by her words and assumes a deal is unbreakable and without frills - especially when the terms are dictated by someone who has every right to hate/backstab him and that he knows it, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

But to be fair, in the Zerg missions, Mengsk's (and Raynor's and Fenix's) positions weren't explained all that well. Plus we already knew Kerrigan was a traitor, but they didn't. None of them knew what went down on Shakuras, otherwise she couldn't have tricked them. I can't emphasize enough that the characters don't see what the player sees. You'd be shocked how many people on ff.net (and in Blizzard official novels) don't seem to get that.

I didn't say anything about Raynor being stupid, however, as part of his initial, base character archetype, he's just meant to be easier to trick because he's too trusting in general and eventually gets burned by it... several times (first by Mengsk, then Kerrigan and then Tychus). Mengsk, on the other hand, has no excuse to be surprised at Kerrigan's betrayal unless he really has become an idiot... which Sc2 later goes on to confirm.
02-20-2015, 01:05 PM
Nissa

Re: Writing a New Starcraft 2 storyline

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turalyon

I made sure I read through the transcript before replying previously. There is nothing about Duke saying he was actually fighting rebellions. All he says is that he doesn't know which militia they come, demands their surrender, expresses confusion about them coming from Earth, followed by indifference and lastly, an order to attack.

I was using "rebellions" as shorthand. Basically, there are people who aren't content to simply allow Mengsk to do as he pleases (whatever Mengsk's political intent is for them at this point) and they're causing Mengsk distraction.

Quote:

Yes, both in the manual and game of Sc1 (see the prologue to the Overmind campaign).

Thanks, I couldn't remember.

Quote:

I never doubted this or that it'd be easy for Mengsk but he did manage to get this all done by the time BW starts.

How much do you know about politics? Given that Duke already mentioned those militias in BW, these conflicts obviously were still ongoing. There is no evidence at all that all of this was done by BW. It's silly to assume it was done. Besides the militias, Mengsk had plans for his "glorious empire", so there's always going to be political/economic issues for him to deal with. Besides that, there's still the Zerg to deal with. That, and they are in no position to predict what the Protoss might do. While I don't believe the Protoss would be too much of a threat given what happened to them, Mengsk has no way of knowing exactly what their deal is. It's not like Raynor's going to tell him.

Quote:

As to the UED being more powerful than Mengsk in a straight-match-up from the time we first see them in BW, there are some arguments against this notion: The UED need Duran's aid in their attack on Boralis, they need to commandeer BC's at the Dylarian shipyards before they can fight off Duke and only have time to go the silos or physics labs when both can easily be reached on the battlefield they were fighting in. Either way, it seems Mengsk's Dominion was quite developed and a formidable force for the UED to have to get through.

That's true. Clearly the UED has some smarter strategists on its side. That, and I remember someone saying they'd collected allies in the K-Sector.

Quote:

Given that Mengsk seems quite established (it's never explained but we have to assume that the time from the start of Overmind to the end of The Stand was spent very well considering Mengsk's position) and that the Protoss are getting ever weaker in BW, I could easily see Mengsk wanting to take further steps to make sure the Terran position is safe and be the Terran aggressor instead of the UED. He has no reason to let the Protoss off considering they seemed willing to burn their worlds previously without warning or explanation. If his utter ruthlessness and inauguration speech is any indication, I'm sure he'll want to make steps to try and prevent that from potentially happening again and wanting to exact some form of repayment in kind if he could.

Well, like I said, Mengsk is in no position to say what the Protoss can do or how weak they might be. Fog of war, bro. Neither is there any indication he knows where Shakuras is. Also, you're making an assumption on how well Mengsk is established. Given his strategy of holing up when the UED went after him, Arcturus is more likely to spend cash on defense, rather than offense. As much beautiful crap as Mengsk talked in his speech, in his heart he's a pragmatic man, and not likely to go on the offensive when he has no clue how to do so, or how doing so can make him look better.

Let me put it this way. Mengsk cares a lot about his image. How would he look if he led the Dominion on a long war to annihilate a race they couldn't find? The people would hate him because they're all dying for his war efforts. The SC/BW Mengsk cares about how the general public sees him. It's foolish to spend money on a war against the Protoss, particularly when so many of their planets fell to the Zerg instead, and the Zerg are more likely to attack them.

No, Mengsk is too pragmatic to go after the 'Toss at this time. Too much effort for too few direct benefits. Sure "revenge" is fine, but Mengsk's speech exists not to explain himself, but to propagandize the people. If he can negotiate peace with the Protoss (assuming they wanted to) and be called the great emperor who negotiated his way out of war, then he'll do it.

Honestly, if Mengsk had taken the aggressor position as you suggest, I just know that there are people here who would argue against his sudden up-boost in power, just as they do when it's BW Mengsk versus SC2 Mengsk.

Quote:

If we had Mengsk in the UED role, we wouldn't have to have half of the Terran missions having to be TvT. We'd also avoid having Mengsk be an idiot as well. Kerrigan can still trick Raynor into helping her against Mengsk and the Protoss against the renegade cerebrates, so nothing much really changes on her end.

I've always attributed that to Mengsk's insanity, not his stupidity. After all, it was equally dumb when Mengsk went on his demented rant when Raynor was about to leave him. Granted, I don't feel at all that Kerrigan tricked Mengsk. She made him an offer, and Mengsk took it. You saw him practically drool over his victory during that mission where they take Korhal back. He was so desirous of his own goals that he was blind to all else.

Quite frankly, Raynor and Fenix come across as more stupid to me. They're killing humans alongside the Zerg? As people who fought against the Zerg on Aiur, they both should know better. Especially when infested Terrans are being used to attack the UED. At some point, they really should have looked at each other, said, "what the hell are we doing?" and left. For that part alone, separate from Mengsk, the Zerg missions of BW needed a rewrite.

Quote:

Please do but one could arguably say that for some of the other characters in BW, too. Look at how they treated poor Aldaris....

Absolutely not. You did have to go and mention my favorite character, didn't you? :D No, Aldaris' end was the exact result of his personality -- he briefly grants the Dark Templar some credit after the fall of Aiur, but completely overreacts when he finds out about Raszagal. It makes sense for someone who was reluctant to trust the DT (or anyone in general) to act this way. His motives are obvious. That is, it's easy to see why Aldaris didn't make the smartest choices ever.

DuGalle and Stukov, on the other hand, go back and forth to the point where it's harder to decipher their motives. DuGalle in particular goes from irrationally distrustful of Duran to irrationally trusting of Duran's word over the man who, by all appearances, is his dear friend of many years. We don't know enough about DuGalle to figure out why he would do something so stupid. However, that's how far I'll go on that topic for now, as this post is long enough.

Quote:

Poor choice of word on my part - I was using it to describe Mengsk's weaselly attempts at parleying with the UED as some form of capitulation on his part.

Eh, I never saw it as parleying. I saw it as a would-be emperor play-acting at being deserving of rights, while DuGalle is just plain shutting him down. Honestly, that exchange is one of my favorites ever.

Quote:

Call it a boast or passive-aggressive threat or whatever, but when Mengsk nonchalantly says "I'll overthrow you as well" when they have him dead to rights, that's not exactly a smart thing to say especially if you're wanting to expect a pleasant/non-reactionary reply in return.

Like I said, Mengsk was play-acting, trying to hold onto his dignity. DuGalle never gave the impression that he would do anything besides execute Mengsk, and I have the feeling that Mengsk would have at least been happy to have a show-trial where he could wax poetic about how great he is, and possibly have a chance to escape in the meantime.

Lol, compare that exchange to DuGalle's surrender at the end of the last mission. Sometimes I think half the reason Kerrigan killed the expeditionary force is because DuGalle was such a baby about it. If he had sworn revenge, like Mengsk did at the end of that mission, Kerrigan might not have spared him, but she would at least shown him a little more dignity about it.

Quote:

Oh, I don't mind Mengsk becoming an actual nutter but remember the reason why I even brought this up: it's about the validity of Mengsk being a credible threat. If he is as short-sighted and dim-witted (I mean honestly, Mengsk what can you immediately do with a smoldering ruin of a world once Kerrigan deems it's yours? She'll move onto the secondary plan that you already knew about: of exacting revenge on you, you idiot, that's what!) as BW reveals he truly is, we really can't expect him to be a credible threat in Sc2 either.

Says the person who said Mengsk was "established" after BW enough to attack the Protoss. :P

Quote:

Besides, a smart man/Sc1 Mengsk would've known that Kerrigan couldn't get anywhere without his help - her threat of jailing him forever should he not comply is pretty hollow when her goals are more time-constrained than his. This is when he could've used that leverage to some effect. But no, he just goes by her words and assumes a deal is unbreakable and without frills - especially when the terms are dictated by someone who has every right to hate/backstab him and that he knows it, too.

I dunno, Kerrigan could have attacked whoever had them to obtain the psi emitters. It just saved a lot of time to get Mengsk. Given that she saved his life, Mengsk probably figured, in his own demented way, that she wanted him to stay alive (not to mention that did eventually turn out to be true). Maybe he thought he owed her. As far as the cold sleep cell goes, I took that to mean that Kerrigan would just keep him on ice until he decided to play along. By not threatening death, she made herself look more reasonable in his eyes.

Quote:

I didn't say anything about Raynor being stupid, however, as part of his initial, base character archetype, he's just meant to be easier to trick because he's too trusting in general and eventually gets burned by it... several times (first by Mengsk, then Kerrigan and then Tychus). Mengsk, on the other hand, has no excuse to be surprised at Kerrigan's betrayal unless he really has become an idiot... which Sc2 later goes on to confirm.

Heck, I did. Raynor's friggin' stupid for getting involved with Kerrigan. So's Fenix. Raynor should honestly have learned by now not to so easily trust other people. Now, if Kerrigan had went up to him and said, "I'm no longer under the Overmind's control, could you help me become human again?", I can see him listening. He should have been immediately suspicious when she pulled him into attacking the UED, and even more suspicious when so many human beings died in the process. It got the point where it ceased being about Kerrigan's lies, but about the cost of defending the K-Sector from the UED, as well as the moral implications of helping genetically mutant monsters over the lives of sentient people. Not to mention subjecting any survivors to the reign of Arcturus Mengsk.

No, after being so closely involved with Mengsk, Raynor shouldn't have trusted Kerrigan. Blizzard either should have given him a clear reason for siding with Kerrigan over the UED despite all the deaths, or rewritten his presence entirely.
02-21-2015, 12:34 AM
Turalyon

Re: Writing a New Starcraft 2 storyline

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

I was using "rebellions" as shorthand. Basically, there are people who aren't content to simply allow Mengsk to do as he pleases (whatever Mengsk's political intent is for them at this point) and they're causing Mengsk distraction.

It may well be true, but Duke never makes mention or alludes to any of this in the section you said it was supposed to be in. That is a fact, unfortunately.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

How much do you know about politics? Given that Duke already mentioned those militias in BW, these conflicts obviously were still ongoing. There is no evidence at all that all of this was done by BW. It's silly to assume it was done. Besides the militias, Mengsk had plans for his "glorious empire", so there's always going to be political/economic issues for him to deal with. Besides that, there's still the Zerg to deal with. That, and they are in no position to predict what the Protoss might do. While I don't believe the Protoss would be too much of a threat given what happened to them, Mengsk has no way of knowing exactly what their deal is. It's not like Raynor's going to tell him.

I don't need to know anything about politics to see that in the BW we have, Mengsk's Dominion is sitting pretty as the dominant Terran force, which incidentally is the original point I was making. I mean, why else would the UED want to attack him at all if he weren't?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

Well, like I said, Mengsk is in no position to say what the Protoss can do or how weak they might be. Fog of war, bro. Neither is there any indication he knows where Shakuras is. Also, you're making an assumption on how well Mengsk is established. Given his strategy of holing up when the UED went after him, Arcturus is more likely to spend cash on defense, rather than offense. As much beautiful crap as Mengsk talked in his speech, in his heart he's a pragmatic man, and not likely to go on the offensive when he has no clue how to do so, or how doing so can make him look better.

Let me put it this way. Mengsk cares a lot about his image. How would he look if he led the Dominion on a long war to annihilate a race they couldn't find? The people would hate him because they're all dying for his war efforts. The SC/BW Mengsk cares about how the general public sees him. It's foolish to spend money on a war against the Protoss, particularly when so many of their planets fell to the Zerg instead, and the Zerg are more likely to attack them.

Given that the initial premise put-forward was that "Mengsk could've taken the role of the UED as the Terran aggressor", these very same question can be asked of the UED in the BW that we actually got. Given that the UED had to spy through Confederacy Terran channels to get their data to prosecute their war against the Zerg and Protoss, one can expect Mengsk to do the same if the Dominion is used in exchange for the UED in BW. We don't know how the UED planned to destroy the Protoss either afterall.

Oh, and of course I'm making assumptions about Mengsk since this is a speculative rewrite of BW based on what we know of the actual BW. Had the UED not existed, we know (based on what the UED targetted in the BW we actually got) that the Dominion had a city on Braxis for co-ordinating their weapons and logistics (God knows how many more he had and where), had a shipyard for refuelling BC which had in excess of 10+ BC waiting there (this is not including the BC that Duke already has at his command or any others stationed at other shipyards or out on other assignments), could've "stumbled" on the Psi Disruptor eventually themselves and a massive city built on Korhal that is backed up by a huge standing army consisting of an abundance of the most dangerous Terran weapons available (BCs and nukes).

As to the "image" thing, Mengsk bills himself as a proactive protector of the Terrans against xenos in general (unlike the reactionary Confeds who failed the Terran majority). Since all he knows that the Protoss come soon after th Zerg - both with the seeming intention of destroying their (a Terran) world, he can't risk thinking the Protoss having good intentions (much like the UED) and letting them slide if they enter Terran space without losing face and looking like the ineffectual Confederacy. Finding the source of the Protoss and ending that threat would be long-term plan - much like what is was with the UED.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

Honestly, if Mengsk had taken the aggressor position as you suggest, I just know that there are people here who would argue against his sudden up-boost in power, just as they do when it's BW Mengsk versus SC2 Mengsk.

Note the original impetus of even discussing Mengsk as the Terran aggressor - as a suitable replacement for the problematic UED.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

I've always attributed that to Mengsk's insanity, not his stupidity. After all, it was equally dumb when Mengsk went on his demented rant when Raynor was about to leave him.

What's so demented about about being angry at someone who is going to wreck everything you did (and in which they helped, no less) to get to where you are right now and has followed you all this way to only to be angry at me now? To Mengsk, Raynor is the crazy one for suddenly being hostile knowing the power he now wields.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

Granted, I don't feel at all that Kerrigan tricked Mengsk. She made him an offer, and Mengsk took it. You saw him practically drool over his victory during that mission where they take Korhal back. He was so desirous of his own goals that he was blind to all else.

Which is why Mengsk is stupid. He is a man that already knows there are no such things as equal deals - it's how he is able to manipulate people to see his way and is probably how he was able to get so far being head of the SoK. To have him do nothing but accept Kerrigan to hold up her bargain to do no harm despite acknowledging she is trustworthy and then proceed to be surprised (of all reactions) when she does reveal her interions is just idiotic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

Quite frankly, Raynor and Fenix come across as more stupid to me. They're killing humans alongside the Zerg? As people who fought against the Zerg on Aiur, they both should know better. Especially when infested Terrans are being used to attack the UED. At some point, they really should have looked at each other, said, "what the hell are we doing?" and left.

You'll get no rebuttal from me. I was just trying to defend Raynor since so many people love him. He is very typical of the "good is dumb" trope though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

Absolutely not. You did have to go and mention my favorite character, didn't you? :D No, Aldaris' end was the exact result of his personality -- he briefly grants the Dark Templar some credit after the fall of Aiur, but completely overreacts when he finds out about Raszagal. It makes sense for someone who was reluctant to trust the DT (or anyone in general) to act this way. His motives are obvious. That is, it's easy to see why Aldaris didn't make the smartest choices ever.

As much as I hate to rag on Aldaris, his revolution and poor communication in BW are pretty ill-conceived things to do. Did he have any proof Raszagal was being manipulated or was it all just hearsay? How come no-one in his army know of this and tell Zeratul or Artanis before or even after Aldaris was killed? I could go on, but it hurts too much. This is one of those time where I would like to blame it on plot-induced stupidity (a writer fault) than anything else. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

DuGalle and Stukov, on the other hand, go back and forth to the point where it's harder to decipher their motives. DuGalle in particular goes from irrationally distrustful of Duran to irrationally trusting of Duran's word over the man who, by all appearances, is his dear friend of many years.

I guess the idea was that Dugalle was supposed to eventually trust in Duran's advice given how correct it was most of the time. It doesn't really come across in the game that well though. It's either that or Gradius' theory about Duran doing some mind manipulation of his own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

Eh, I never saw it as parleying.

Mengsk begs to differ: "I wish to parley with your Executive Officer at once!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

Like I said, Mengsk was play-acting, trying to hold onto his dignity. DuGalle never gave the impression that he would do anything besides execute Mengsk, and I have the feeling that Mengsk would have at least been happy to have a show-trial where he could wax poetic about how great he is, and possibly have a chance to escape in the meantime.

I've always regarded Mengsk as a cynic when it comes to people so this would sound somewhat unrealistically optimistic for some one like Mengsk to expect, especially given the lengths they've gone to in trying to apprehend him. Besides, he knows the history of the UPL as being extremely harsh to deviants of any kind and that a military take-over your despotic institution that started without formal negotiations often means the aggressor is likely out for your blood.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

Says the person who said Mengsk was "established" after BW enough to attack the Protoss. :P

Incorrect. I said Mengsk was established at the start of BW such that Blizz could've conceivably exchanged the UED's role with Mengsk's Dominion in BW had it been written without the UED ever existing.

Besides, Mengsk being established at the start of BW has nothing to do with him becoming inexplicably stupid throughout BW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

I dunno, Kerrigan could have attacked whoever had them to obtain the psi emitters. It just saved a lot of time to get Mengsk. Given that she saved his life, Mengsk probably figured, in his own demented way, that she wanted him to stay alive (not to mention that did eventually turn out to be true). Maybe he thought he owed her. As far as the cold sleep cell goes, I took that to mean that Kerrigan would just keep him on ice until he decided to play along. By not threatening death, she made herself look more reasonable in his eyes.

Please don't rationalise for Mengsk. It's further cementing in my mind that he is indeed stupid. I didn't like the idea then and I like it less so now. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

Heck, I did. Raynor's friggin' stupid for getting involved with Kerrigan. So's Fenix. Raynor should honestly have learned by now not to so easily trust other people. Now, if Kerrigan had went up to him and said, "I'm no longer under the Overmind's control, could you help me become human again?", I can see him listening. He should have been immediately suspicious when she pulled him into attacking the UED, and even more suspicious when so many human beings died in the process. It got the point where it ceased being about Kerrigan's lies, but about the cost of defending the K-Sector from the UED, as well as the moral implications of helping genetically mutant monsters over the lives of sentient people. Not to mention subjecting any survivors to the reign of Arcturus Mengsk.

No, after being so closely involved with Mengsk, Raynor shouldn't have trusted Kerrigan. Blizzard either should have given him a clear reason for siding with Kerrigan over the UED despite all the deaths, or rewritten his presence entirely.

But this is Kerrigan, remember? Raynor's eternal love. :p (I had to gag for a moment there)

Really, if you put it this way, everyone in BW is stupid for trusting Kerrigan because the only thing they have going for them is Kerrigan's word that she's "normal" now after the Overmind was killed. This argument has been done previously, so I won't go there. Instead, I'm going to defend Raynor (I bet no-one saw that coming).

Raynor, more than anyone, can be justified in his stupidity over trusting Kerrigan's at all. Why? Largely because that is part of this character archetype but apart from that it's to do with his history with Kerrigan. I'd imagine that it was Kerrigan who came to Aiur to rescue Raynor and Fenix, which would go along way in shoring up Kerrigan's cover-story of being changed now that the Overmind was gone. I'd assume that by telling him that there's a new Overmind growing would be considerable concern because then she'd be totally unreasonable (compared to now) if it were to fully mature and take control of her. In conjunction with the threat of this alternative should he not help Kerrigan (and risking the off-chance that she really is normal again based on Raynor's too-trusting nature), Raynor's regret and survivor guilt at not having prevented Kerrigan from being captured on Tarsonis previously, would also see him wanting to help her as a way to compensate/redeem himself (a theme that WoL doesn't handle well but what was supposed to be about). When the UED intended to capture the Overmind in order to use the Zerg and succeeded in doing so, they naturally became the next target to get through.

Keep in mind that Raynor does actually express doubt about Kerrigan's motivations but I guess by that time, he's seen the neo-Overmind and the UED's control over it, so has no choice but to side with the "evil he knows best" for now and hopes Kerrigan is on the level.
02-21-2015, 04:02 AM
Nissa

Re: Writing a New Starcraft 2 storyline

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turalyon

It may well be true, but Duke never makes mention or alludes to any of this in the section you said it was supposed to be in. That is a fact, unfortunately.

Excuse me?

DUKE Well, now. I don't know which militia you all are from, but I advise ya' to back down... NOW!

What the heck do you think this is supposed to imply, then?! Obviously people are giving Duke trouble. This is exactly what I said it was. Namely, a military distraction composed of people willing to strike out against Mengsk.

Herp derp, bro.

Quote:

I don't need to know anything about politics to see that in the BW we have, Mengsk's Dominion is sitting pretty as the dominant Terran force, which incidentally is the original point I was making. I mean, why else would the UED want to attack him at all if he weren't?

Dominant force in the sector =/= sitting pretty. Mengsk is certainly the most powerful human leader, but he's also in the midst of planets being devastated by the Zerg and Protoss, putting down opposition, and dealing with the resulting economic consequences. Or did you think losing those planets to the Zerg means nothing at all?

Quote:

Given that the initial premise put-forward was that "Mengsk could've taken the role of the UED as the Terran aggressor", these very same question can be asked of the UED in the BW that we actually got. Given that the UED had to spy through Confederacy Terran channels to get their data to prosecute their war against the Zerg and Protoss, one can expect Mengsk to do the same if the Dominion is used in exchange for the UED in BW. We don't know how the UED planned to destroy the Protoss either afterall.

Lol, the UED definitely wasn't all that well thought out. It just makes more sense for the UED to be stupid enough to try and attack everyone in the sector without proper knowledge (them not being from the sector and all). More sense, of course, does not equate to adequate sense. The UED either needed to be better developed, or written out. All I'm saying is, they're a better aggressor than Mengsk.

Quote:

Oh, and of course I'm making assumptions about Mengsk since this is a speculative rewrite of BW based on what we know of the actual BW. Had the UED not existed, we know (based on what the UED targetted in the BW we actually got) that the Dominion had a city on Braxis for co-ordinating their weapons and logistics (God knows how many more he had and where), had a shipyard for refuelling BC which had in excess of 10+ BC waiting there (this is not including the BC that Duke already has at his command or any others stationed at other shipyards or out on other assignments), could've "stumbled" on the Psi Disruptor eventually themselves and a massive city built on Korhal that is backed up by a huge standing army consisting of an abundance of the most dangerous Terran weapons available (BCs and nukes).

Eh, my objection to your assumption was simply that you were putting too much strength into Mengsk at the beginning of BW. Besides, the strength of one base, particularly the one protecting the emperor who was keen on hiding from his enemies, is a good judgement of the empire as a whole. It's very much not a statement on his ability to fight an offensive war. Clearly Mengsk is more interested in protecting his throne, rather than going against the Protoss when he, again, has no flipping clue where they are.

Quote:

As to the "image" thing, Mengsk bills himself as a proactive protector of the Terrans against xenos in general (unlike the reactionary Confeds who failed the Terran majority). Since all he knows that the Protoss come soon after th Zerg - both with the seeming intention of destroying their (a Terran) world, he can't risk thinking the Protoss having good intentions (much like the UED) and letting them slide if they enter Terran space without losing face and looking like the ineffectual Confederacy. Finding the source of the Protoss and ending that threat would be long-term plan - much like what is was with the UED.

The Confeds were "reactionary"? Uh...whatever.

I grant you that Mengsk wouldn't simply ignore any potential Protoss threat. Thing is, he doesn't know anything about them. Thus, his only option is defensive measures.

Given that the Protoss aren't in the best of positions, and in BW comment that they care more about their own survival, it's highly likely that the Protoss would have attempted to do what they can to appear as less of a threat. Granted, that's speculation, but it's also the most sensible option for the 'Toss. But yes, any peace talks between the two would depend more on Protoss action than on Mengsk.

Quote:

Note the original impetus of even discussing Mengsk as the Terran aggressor - as a suitable replacement for the problematic UED.

Note my objection: Mengsk is an even dumber choice for an aggressor. Besides, we needed more human characters anyway. While DuGalle had his character problems, a thing I liked about him was that he was, politically speaking, on Mengsk's level. He wasn't a hick like Raynor or a follower like Duke. What Starcraft needed (and needs) is other political people who can influence Terran interests.

Quote:

What's so demented about about being angry at someone who is going to wreck everything you did (and in which they helped, no less) to get to where you are right now and has followed you all this way to only to be angry at me now? To Mengsk, Raynor is the crazy one for suddenly being hostile knowing the power he now wields.

That's exactly my point. Mengsk, as someone attempting to make himself an all important emperor, shouldn't have responded to Raynor by flat out stating that the would rule the sector and see it burnt to ashes around him. That's like mondo levels of crazy.

Quote:

Which is why Mengsk is stupid. He is a man that already knows there are no such things as equal deals - it's how he is able to manipulate people to see his way and is probably how he was able to get so far being head of the SoK. To have him do nothing but accept Kerrigan to hold up her bargain to do no harm despite acknowledging she is trustworthy and then proceed to be surprised (of all reactions) when she does reveal her interions is just idiotic.

I think this difference of opinion is a matter of perspective. I enjoyed Mengsk's blindness to her intent. Sure, it was stupid, but in many evil minds, there exists both great intelligence and massive stupidity. For example, Mao Tse Tung once ordered the Chinese people to kill birds, despite the fact these birds were helpful in getting rid of pests on farmland.

Hm, I've figured out the issue here, maybe. Thing is, there's a difference between intelligent options and character options. That is, it's perfectly in-character for Mengsk to go blind to Kerrigan's treachery when his empire is at stake (it ain't as though he could get it back without her). Sure, it's not the most intelligent option to do what she says, but it's perfectly reasonable, given who Mengsk is, that he would choose the stupid if it included personal gain.

Quote:

You'll get no rebuttal from me. I was just trying to defend Raynor since so many people love him. He is very typical of the "good is dumb" trope though.

Pffft. The only "good is dumb" action Raynor took was to listen to infested Kerrigan (bearing in mind that SC2 isn't canon). In trusting Mengsk with the Sons of Korhal, he was simply rooting for the rebel side against an oppressive government. Raynor's the "anti-government redneck" trope.

Quote:

As much as I hate to rag on Aldaris, his revolution and poor communication in BW are pretty ill-conceived things to do. Did he have any proof Raszagal was being manipulated or was it all just hearsay? How come no-one in his army know of this and tell Zeratul or Artanis before or even after Aldaris was killed? I could go on, but it hurts too much. This is one of those time where I would like to blame it on plot-induced stupidity (a writer fault) than anything else. ;)

It's like I said with Mengsk. There's a difference between the intelligent option and the one a character would choose. The sensible thing to do was for Aldaris to do would be to attempt to find out more, but given his history of distrust, overreacting is well within his character. Yes, it's a plot-hole that Aldaris would have told his followers, but that's a plot problem, not a character one. As is, Blizzard just sweeps the consequences of that under the rug, then heads on over to the Terran missions.

Quote:

Mengsk begs to differ: "I wish to parley with your Executive Officer at once!"

Just because Mengsk says it, doesn't mean it's true. Playacting!

Quote:

I've always regarded Mengsk as a cynic when it comes to people so this would sound somewhat unrealistically optimistic for some one like Mengsk to expect, especially given the lengths they've gone to in trying to apprehend him. Besides, he knows the history of the UPL as being extremely harsh to deviants of any kind and that a military take-over your despotic institution that started without formal negotiations often means the aggressor is likely out for your blood.

Nah, Mengsk's arrogance is such that he feels he's a great emperor, and should be treated like one. Should he know better? Absolutely. Does he? Nope!

Quote:

Incorrect. I said Mengsk was established at the start of BW such that Blizz could've conceivably exchanged the UED's role with Mengsk's Dominion in BW had it been written without the UED ever existing.

Excuse me, I meant to say that it was the start of BW, not the end. I mistyped.

Quote:

Please don't rationalise for Mengsk. It's further cementing in my mind that he is indeed stupid. I didn't like the idea then and I like it less so now. :D

Well, I'm not trying to rationalize it, so much as I'm trying to establish that it's in his nature. People take action for all kinds of reasons, and many times not always because it's the smartest thing to do. Mengsk, at his core, tends to the person who always acts most pragmatically for his own short term benefit. There's always going to be an element of stupid to that kind of thinking.

Quote:

But this is Kerrigan, remember? Raynor's eternal love. :p (I had to gag for a moment there)

Really, if you put it this way, everyone in BW is stupid for trusting Kerrigan because the only thing they have going for them is Kerrigan's word that she's "normal" now after the Overmind was killed. This argument has been done previously, so I won't go there. Instead, I'm going to defend Raynor (I bet no-one saw that coming).

Well, keep in mind who Kerrigan wanted to convince. She actually failed to convince more often than she succeeded. The only reason she convinced Zeratul is because she manipulated Raszagal into giving her a chance. Aldaris had nothing to do with her, and the UED boys she never attempted to trick. I personally don't feel she ever really tricked Mengsk much at all. He saw an opportunity to get Korhal back, and he did, damn the consequences.

Quote:

Raynor, more than anyone, can be justified in his stupidity over trusting Kerrigan's at all. Why? Largely because that is part of this character archetype but apart from that it's to do with his history with Kerrigan. I'd imagine that it was Kerrigan who came to Aiur to rescue Raynor and Fenix, which would go along way in shoring up Kerrigan's cover-story of being changed now that the Overmind was gone. I'd assume that by telling him that there's a new Overmind growing would be considerable concern because then she'd be totally unreasonable (compared to now) if it were to fully mature and take control of her. In conjunction with the threat of this alternative should he not help Kerrigan (and risking the off-chance that she really is normal again based on Raynor's too-trusting nature), Raynor's regret and survivor guilt at not having prevented Kerrigan from being captured on Tarsonis previously, would also see him wanting to help her as a way to compensate/redeem himself (a theme that WoL doesn't handle well but what was supposed to be about). When the UED intended to capture the Overmind in order to use the Zerg and succeeded in doing so, they naturally became the next target to get through.

Keep in mind that Raynor does actually express doubt about Kerrigan's motivations but I guess by that time, he's seen the neo-Overmind and the UED's control over it, so has no choice but to side with the "evil he knows best" for now and hopes Kerrigan is on the level.

That was Blizzard's excuse, not Jimmy's. And no, he's not the "good is dumb archetype." He's a desperate redneck who always tries to do as he feels is right, and it's a break from his natural characterization for him to work with Kerrigan. Blizzard never sufficiently explained why Jimmy chose to work with her, and while it's perfectly reasonable to think Kerrigan rescued him (I think it myself), Blizzard never explicitly stated how Kerrigan got him to trust her.

Guilt? Makes sense as a motivator. Reciprocation for saving him? He might fetch Mengsk. But it stopped being about trusting her when she told him to go attack Moria for supplies. At that point, he was killing people with no association to the UED for the specific purpose of helping the Zerg. Given that the player has the option of infesting command centers in that mission, that adds infesting innocent people to go and kill sentient beings, thus weakening human ability to fight against the Zerg later on.

This goes far beyond being too-trusting. Raynor is legit murdering people, when neither he, nor Fenix, or any humans in the K Sector get much benefit beyond having one less tyrant. Raynor should have realized that he was killing people for the benefit of tyrants again, and got out of there/attempted to stop them at his first chance. Both he and Fenix come across not as stupid, but as pure evil for involving themselves in the sordid affair.
02-21-2015, 10:24 AM
Turalyon

Re: Writing a New Starcraft 2 storyline

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

DUKE Well, now. I don't know which militia you all are from, but I advise ya' to back down... NOW!

What the heck do you think this is supposed to imply, then?! Obviously people are giving Duke trouble. This is exactly what I said it was. Namely, a military distraction composed of people willing to strike out against Mengsk.

And to think that you accuse me of making unfounded and wild assumptions... :rolleyes:

You're position was that the Dominion is having a real tough time (as a reason for not being established) because Duke would be wasting a lot time fighting rebels. That quote you provided alludes to neither having a tough time, Duke fighting anyone nor that they are specifically rebels (the word militia is not even synonymous with rebels and it could just as easily refer to the fighting forces of the KMC or the UP). You'll have a better chance of convincing me that what Duke is really saying is this: "I don't recognise you guys, but quit what you're doing straight away".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

Dominant force in the sector =/= sitting pretty. Mengsk is certainly the most powerful human leader, but he's also in the midst of planets being devastated by the Zerg and Protoss, putting down opposition, and dealing with the resulting economic consequences. Or did you think losing those planets to the Zerg means nothing at all?

At the time BW starts, both the Zerg and Protoss have suffered massive blows such that they are not in a position to continue harassing the Terrans. You have to keep in mind that from the Overmind campaign onward, Mengsk is free to do whatever he wants without harrassment since the Overmind leaves the Terran sector after having found Kerrigan is bent towards destroying the Protoss and the Protoss have stopped interacting witin Terran space because Tassadar felt guilty and went away. There's plenty of time to contrive a scenario where Mengsk actually established himself as the premiere Terran force when BW begins. That the actual BW starts with a Dominion that seems pretty powerful and that the UED target Mengsk as being a major domestic (Terran-related) threat goes to show how prepared the writers were in making Mengsk seem formidable.

Don't get me wrong though. I've always doubted the verisimilitude of Mengsk being so potentially strong so quickly (once again, with FanaticTemplar) but having Mengsk/Dominion as the Terran aggressor/antagonist instead in BW is no worse than having the UED come out of nowhere and disappear without consequence such as they did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

Lol, the UED definitely wasn't all that well thought out. It just makes more sense for the UED to be stupid enough to try and attack everyone in the sector without proper knowledge (them not being from the sector and all). More sense, of course, does not equate to adequate sense. The UED either needed to be better developed, or written out. All I'm saying is, they're a better aggressor than Mengsk.

You're halfway there. You're right the UED weren't thought out that well but this is also such that Mengsk could've really taken the role of the "Terran antagonist" if they had to have a "Terran antagonist" at all. The tweaks necessary to get Mengsk in that role would be no more difficult to believe or sillier than some of the other stuff that had occur to make the UEDs appearance justified.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

Eh, my objection to your assumption was simply that you were putting too much strength into Mengsk at the beginning of BW. Besides, the strength of one base, particularly the one protecting the emperor who was keen on hiding from his enemies, is a good judgement of the empire as a whole. It's very much not a statement on his ability to fight an offensive war.

It's not just one base. He has military logistics bases on other worlds and God knows how many shipyards with however many BC's he has at is disposal. He definitely has the potential and capability. The question of whether he would open hostilities on all xenos the Dominion encounters is just a simple matter of writing it as such. It's no less difficult or silly than writing the UED were always secretly spying on the K-sector, were going to take control over it by subduing everything in it and having the capability to do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

The Confeds were "reactionary"?

Reactionary to the alien forces that were ultimately their undoing (with a little help from Mengsk of course). But I guess that's too strong a word for their efforts since it really seems like they did nothing at all in reaction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

Note my objection: Mengsk is an even dumber choice for an aggressor. Besides, we needed more human characters anyway. While DuGalle had his character problems, a thing I liked about him was that he was, politically speaking, on Mengsk's level. He wasn't a hick like Raynor or a follower like Duke. What Starcraft needed (and needs) is other political people who can influence Terran interests.

You haven't established why it's worse. Considering how you (and I) lament the idiocy that Mengsk descends into (you think it's only in Sc2 when it really did start in BW), having Mengsk follow on from his reveal as threat in Sc1 to be an actual threat in a rewritten BW is a logical extension. Besides, your rebuttal that this would limit more Terran characters from coming in is bunk because one could easily write a Dugalle and Stukov archetype as being part of the Dominion instead. As to having other political entities, that wasn't a real possibility at the end of Sc1 since Mengsk's Dominion is revealed to be the unifying (although despotic) force of all Terrans. I could understand that if the rewritten BW, with Mengsk's Dominion being the Terran aggressor being beaten into oblivion, one could look at other Terran political groups in the next entry. This dovetails nicely into that thing I said about Sc2's first Terran installment being more interesting if it were about that very thing (the various Terran factional groups) instead of Raynor and Mengsk again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

Mengsk, as someone attempting to make himself an all important emperor, shouldn't have responded to Raynor by flat out stating that the would rule the sector and see it burnt to ashes around him. That's like mondo levels of crazy.

Sure, there is a bit of Messiah Complex and delusion going on there but if I had to explain why he had to say this was because he's trying to drill into Raynor thick skull the responsibility he now has to undertake and that the alternative for him in not undertaking that responsibility or having that responsibility being potentially waylayed (by Raynor's sudden insurrection) is the complete destruction of everything we know. At the least, if he really is just gloating, it wouldn't matter since Raynor was going to die very soon either way. He couldn't foresee that Raynor would escape, somehow keep surviving and eventually find a recording of this exact conversation and have it used against him (to little effect in the end it seemed).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

I think this difference of opinion is a matter of perspective. I enjoyed Mengsk's blindness to her intent. Sure, it was stupid, but in many evil minds, there exists both great intelligence and massive stupidity. For example, Mao Tse Tung once ordered the Chinese people to kill birds, despite the fact these birds were helpful in getting rid of pests on farmland.

Then why are you lamenting his idiocy in Sc2 then? Everything is perfectly consistent then if Mengsk was always that blind, stupid and ineffective as a leader.:confused:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

That is, it's perfectly in-character for Mengsk to go blind to Kerrigan's treachery when his empire is at stake (it ain't as though he could get it back without her). Sure, it's not the most intelligent option to do what she says, but it's perfectly reasonable, given who Mengsk is, that he would choose the stupid if it included personal gain.

Mengsk's plans for an empire were always at stake since Sc1 if everything he did up to actually achieving it was all about getting it (personal gain) in the first place. Besides, the strength of an Empire is in the people not a single location. I don't know why he is so keen on that one single planet - he could start up his Empire anywhere given that the most important thing about an Empire is the Emperor himself and his people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

Pffft. The only "good is dumb" action Raynor took was to listen to infested Kerrigan (bearing in mind that SC2 isn't canon). In trusting Mengsk with the Sons of Korhal, he was simply rooting for the rebel side against an oppressive government. Raynor's the "anti-government redneck" trope.

You'd be wrong about the Mengsk thing. He witnessed that Mengsk was keen to wipe out Antiga with an Psi-Emitter and Raynor still followed him despite the massive civilian casualties that would've resulted. If he is such a huge moral guardian, why didn't he split then? He only does so when he loses a specific acquaintance. Had Kerrigan survived, Raynor could've easily been part of the Dominion. As I said, "good is dumb".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

The sensible thing to do was for Aldaris to do would be to attempt to find out more, but given his history of distrust, overreacting is well within his character. Yes, it's a plot-hole that Aldaris would have told his followers, but that's a plot problem, not a character one. As is, Blizzard just sweeps the consequences of that under the rug, then heads on over to the Terran missions.

But Aldaris also learnt the price for overreaction and distrust in Eye of the Storm. I guess he just decided to conveniently forget and just "let the hate flow through him" because it felt good and a whole army of Khalai Protoss just decided to help Aldaris attack the people who offered them a safe-haven. As to no-one knowing the truth up until it's too late or even someone spouting a rumour about what it was at the time, it openly suggests that Aldaris didn't tell anyone (is stupid) since there is no other reasonable in-universe reason to explain why no-one has an inkling of the truth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

That was Blizzard's excuse, not Jimmy's.

What was?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

And no, he's not the "good is dumb archetype." He's a desperate redneck who always tries to do as he feels is right, and it's a break from his natural characterization for him to work with Kerrigan. Blizzard never sufficiently explained why Jimmy chose to work with her, and while it's perfectly reasonable to think Kerrigan rescued him (I think it myself), Blizzard never explicitly stated how Kerrigan got him to trust her.

He was either too gullible and compelled to trust her because of their shared history or that he couldn't risk Kerrigan falling under a rejuvenated Zerg Swarm again. Or maybe he never trusted her at all and saw it pragmatically as a chance to escape from Aiur given that he had no other alternative and felt that if he didn't help her there'd be consequences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nissa

Guilt? Makes sense as a motivator. Reciprocation for saving him? He might fetch Mengsk. But it stopped being about trusting her when she told him to go attack Moria for supplies. At that point, he was killing people with no association to the UED for the specific purpose of helping the Zerg. Given that the player has the option of infesting command centers in that mission, that adds infesting innocent people to go and kill sentient beings, thus weakening human ability to fight against the Zerg later on.

This goes far beyond being too-trusting. Raynor is legit murdering people, when neither he, nor Fenix, or any humans in the K Sector get much benefit beyond having one less tyrant. Raynor should have realized that he was killing people for the benefit of tyrants again, and got out of there/attempted to stop them at his first chance. Both he and Fenix come across not as stupid, but as pure evil for involving themselves in the sordid affair.

Raynor has never been pure of heart. He tacitly accepted the use of a Psi-Emitter on Antiga and his "conscience" forced him to take a moral stand only when Kerrigan became a victim. So there's something about Kerrigan that clearly affects his judgement.

Another possibility is that Raynor may have eventually realised, too late, that he can't just escape from/resist a super-powered telepath who is more dangerous than Mengsk without guaranteeing his death. Maybe he's just staying the course hoping to be relieved at some point whilst not wanting to potentially incur the wrath of an extremely powerful mutant in the meantime. So in his mind it'd not be stupid that he doesn't leave/rebel, it'd be stupid if he did try those things. I must admit though, it's all rather speculative.

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page