Dominion Censorship

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Originally Posted by Hawki

That other leaders exist, and that they're quite capable of seizing the initiative for independence when the circumstances allow for it.

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Which seemingly contradicts the fact that Mengsk is still securely in power and maintains it all through his powerful military as HoTS and several people in this thread have suggested. He could squash Bountiful like a bug.

And isn't Hauler dead?

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Yes, because the UP and KMC are quite happy being subjugated (hint, they're not even under control), or launching insurgencies (e.g. Hauler), or declaring independence (e.g. Bountiful). You, er, said something about dodging?

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The fact that they failed to make any sort of grab for power at the end of BW indicates that they have no interest in ruling, a serious anomaly that doesn't make any sense.

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That's a hell of an assumption.

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Why? There are no typical country borders in space, and there are three major factions. Mar Sara and Char, all Confederate "core" worlds, were sites of battle during the Guild Wars. Any of those planets could have been under KMC control if the war went differently.

So simply assuming that the people in Mengsk's territories would just go back for the hell of it, and that he's entitled to this "empire that he can go back to", is simply bunk. Everything in space is up for grabs after the invention of the warp drive. Mengsk isn't entitled to crap, unless we willfully disbelieve that other factions want any power whatsoever.

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As in, the same way the UP was able to infiltrate Simonson without any reprecussions? Attacking a base that doesn't even technically exist, that isn't even on Umoja, that isn't even defended all that well isn't a sign of...well, anything really.

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If you want to bring extended media into this, nothing tops the fact that the Umojans have to sneak food to their people in crates, 1 year after BW.

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Point 3: Mar Sara, pre-zerg, is independent from the Dominion.

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The wiki says Mar Sara was reannexed by the Dominion in 2504. Just another example of the Morians losing out to the more powerful Dominion.

Meinhoff, a former KMC planet, appears to house the Dominion's refugees and appears to be Mengsk's responsibility according to Hanson, so we can assume that the Morians lost control of this planet too.

We get news ticker text that says "Kel-Morians 'Useless'".

Umoja doesn't do anything in WoL except close its borders.

Again, where is your evidence that the Dominion is weak compared to other factions?

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Point 1: The protoss have never shown any interest in terran affairs. Literally, never. Even SC1 isn't predicated on this, it's from the zerg threat (and being aware of the zerg at all was by chance).

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Nope, no zerg threat in the k-sector. None at all.

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Point 2: This is no longer SC1. The protoss are in no position to uphold the Dae'Uhl, or maintain a presence in the way they once did.

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They weren't in any position to do that in BW either, and yet they didn't sit around doing nothing.

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Point 3: The zerg invasion in SC2 has no indication of ever affecting PP territory. Even if they are aware of the invasion (and to be fair, probably are), it has no reason to involve them. It doesn't matter how many terrans die. It doesn't matter how many zerg die, and hey, the more zerg the better. The protoss have nothing to gain by making their presence felt. Even assuming that they're aware of Kerrigan's de-infestation, I think the protoss understand that at the least, most terrans would want to see her dead as well.

Point 4: WoL occurs over three months - one month of fighting, then a battle that lasts a few days AT BEST on Char two months later. So, with the zerg apparently rampaging for once month, going silent, then being severed from control in an instant, I can forgive the protoss for not knowing everything that's going on, not to mention, as stated, they have no reason to care about the zerg unless they become a threat to them.

I know there are outliers - observers for instance. But I'm sorry, I can only say that the PP's presence in SC2 would weaken the story as it played out. It would make it a rehash of SC1 if they tried to play the role of stewards, it would make them seem trigger happy if they tried to attack the zerg at all. As far as WoL goes, the protoss have nothing to gain through involvement. If the zerg wipe out humanity, no-one cares. If humanity somehow wins, great, they didn't have to waste any lives for that to happen. By all indications, the PP has acted as I'd expect them to.

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Sigh. Sigh. Sigh.

Kerrigan and the zerg are the biggest threat to the protoss' existence. How the hell does that not affect them? There should be observers, if not entire espionage teams, being sent to Char and her last known location every day. She can decide on their extinction at a whim, especially if she decides to move on to a new target (gee, whom might that be?)

No reason to get involved? Are you serious? If they don't bother investigating the biggest threat to their existence, then they're idiots. Not to mention the fact that Artanis himself states "we shall be watching you". Consider that line retconned, I guess?

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I say this because of Fenix, Raynor, and Mengsk being given outpost duty in Kerrigan's reclamation of Korhal

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Of course they are. The zerg are overpowered in BW and deserve to assault the primary fortification, especially after being given a 10k mineral power boost. This in no way diminishes her allies.

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not to mention that the only reason Fenix and Raynor are there at all is because of the warp gate debacle on Aiur.

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Eh? Raynor and Fenix agreed to find Mengsk to join Kerrigan. Their alliance is not the result of the "warp gate debacle".

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-WoL, as I explained, the protoss have no reason to join the battle, but observe at best. The Dominion is also a faulty argument because they're not looking for trouble against the zerg.

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Oh, but they have an excuse to send their entire armada to hunt Kerrigan all over the sector because she was spotted on Kaldir?

Face it, the perfect time to have killed Kerrigan is after the artifact went off. Absolutely perfect. Even afterwards would have been fine, and the protoss could have ensured their survival as a species. But the protoss couldn't even do that because their intelligence department is run by monkeys. Makes you wonder how she ever died in the Overmind's vision.

Zeratul can easily track her Leviathan at a whim and pop right in whenever he feels like. He's not the only dark templar with tracking abilities. All they had to do was frickin try.

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It is now four years later. Kerrigan and the zerg have remained ominously silent. Meanwhile, the Dominion has grown in power and extended its influence throughout the Koprulu sector.

Raynor and his forces, plagued by low morale and lack of resources, continue their struggle against the Dominion. Victory against Mengsk, however, seems more distant than ever....

Oh, if only I could come down to your level and use the term "SC2 hater." I won't though. But that's the prologue text. You've already made the assumption that this is "clearly" telling us the Dominion is the most powerful faction. Expanding influence? Yes. Most powerful? No indication of the sort.

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Yes, expanding influence against the most powerful factions in the game, Umoja or KMC. That makes them the most powerful. It's a basic logical inference.

It's not like some third-world country in Africa gaining ground on its other third-world allies.

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It's a sign that the Dominion happens to be occupying the space where the artifacts are, and pays the price for it.

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It's funny because they're not. One artifact was on Mar Sara, the rest were in Tal'darim possession. The protoss should have been fearing for their lives. :P

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No doubt there's someone ready to call me a cheese eating surrendur monkey, but all I can say is that the PP in WoL (and HotS) is more or less acting the way I'd expect it to. Don't take risks, consolidate your forces, play a defensive role. If Kerrigan's giving you breathing room, keep that breathing room as long as possible. We know that the PP has been working on developing new tech (void ray), reviving old tech (colossus) and has taken some cautionary steps (Aiur, Kaldir). Not a bad job as far as war strategy goes IMO.

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All they're missing now is basic military intelligence.

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I expected Mengsk to rebuild (which he did), rule a weakened Dominion (which he does), and go on from BW. Which, as I mentioned above, has never been in a place of "never happening." You want to argue the Dominion shouldn't have recovered at all, fine. You want to argue that Mengsk shouldn't have got back into power, fine. But more happened in BW than that, and shock of all shocks, SC2 can't function without it (Shakuras, Zeratul, Kerrigan, etc.)

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Why doesn't Mengsk show up in SC2 ruling the known universe? Clearly BW set a precedent that he "plans on rebuilding".

The sarcastic point here being that we take issue with the degree of rebuilding. Him lording over the other factions and maintaining his military strength as if nothing ever happened is the issue many people have.

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In all honesty, I'd have said that the Char Aleph strike had a good chance of succeeding. Kill the zerg on the platform, kill Kerrigan, and you've basically won. Course I can't see the UED asserting control at all, but, well, what ya gonna do?

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I don't know, the bulk of Kerrigan's broods were on the surface of Char. All 3 forces were pretty small when you consider that they all lost to a single Cerebrate.

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Willingly, by all indications.

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Great, why don't they come back then?

The implication is that they have no reason not to seize power. They don't love Mengsk any more than the UED.

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Says the person who's used terms such as "SC2 defender" as a pejorative, and made mentions of witches and water. Oh yes, these are uncivil terms, but I don't care that they're uncivil. Uncivility is not a counter-argument, it only makes an existing one look weaker.

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I know, I am a terrible person and will burn in hell forever. :P

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-Fact: Kerrigan let Mengsk retreat, not DuGalle.

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The UED had other forces on the planets that they controlled for all we know. Mengsk on the other hand was stripped of all his power, and everything that he had was with him at Omega. When I played BW I assumed that the fact that he was allowed to leave assured his continued existence as a character, not the continued existence of his entire frickin empire.

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-Fact: The Dominion still exists in of itself, with Mengsk still emperor. Even if you argue in name only, he's still a leader with a logical powerbase.

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Disagree. The UED took control of his planets and threatened to execute his ranking officers (which we can assume they've been trying to do in the meantime).

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-Fact: The UED has been left without a leader.

-Fact: That said, UED remnants still exist.

So I'm left to ask, why is the assumption being made that the UED has equal right to rule? By last count, Mengsk was still in charge of Korhal. Even if his military was defeated, the ownership never left his hands. The UED was retreating to Earth, so I can only assume that they had no powerbase left. I'd have an easier time swallowing the KMC or UP becoming the dominant power, because they at least have come out of two wars relatively unscathed. I'd still argue that they did do better for it given their sparring with the Dominion, but the UED? Sorry. At this point in time, they have nothing to offer the K-sector either politically or militarily.

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Your argument basically boils down to the fact that Dugalle is dead and he's the only possible leader for the UED. The UED remnants can't have a leader, because Dugalle is dead. I don't find that realistic.

I can concede though that Mengsk still has Korhal and a more centralized power base to return to, as opposed to the UED who would be more disorganized.

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I have to contest the notion that the ending of BW could have gone either way, because even if you argue that Mengsk's rebuilding is only a sign of intent, it makes it quite clear that the UED Expeditionary Force is gone. Done for. "No ship made it back to Earth," and that they're retreating to Earth in the first place tells me how south their invasion has gone for them.

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Absolutely. The only real question is how much of a presence the UED still have on the planets of the Dominion that they "grip with an iron fist". This has never really been answered, and is why one could argue that it could have gone either way.

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I have to ask, in all honesty, reading the epilogue text of BW, was "the UED are still gonna be around in the sequel" your thought, or something akin to that? If so, I won't judge, but, well, let's just say I have a hard time entertaining that idea.

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Nope. But did you get the impression that Mengsk was going to rule a Confederacy-sized empire in SC2?

The excuse for the lack of Protoss interference during WoL because they didn't care about Terran affairs, didn't have the capability or were not looking for trouble with the Zerg is completely bunk when you factor Selendis' involvement on Haven.

Here, we have the most currently distinguished military leader of the Protoss willing to waste Protoss lives over a pissing contest with Raynor all for the sake of burning a world that may or may not even be infested. It is obvious the Protoss care enough about the Zerg that they want to fight an alien friend whose politics they care nothing about just so they can extinguish a world that is not even in their space nor holds any value to them of Zerg. That they have the time and resources to prioritise something as pointless as this makes their complete lack of curiosity/absence about what Raynor does do during the end of WoL in contrast completely baffling.

As to the issue with Mengsk, Grad's summary sums it pretty well:

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When I played BW I assumed that the fact that he was allowed to leave assured his continued existence as a character, not the continued existence of his entire frickin empire.

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In terms of the dynamics of the Terrans in general, BW might as well not have happened since everything now seems just like it was before BW happened. One could argue semantics about the supposed existence of other leaders and factions being there or not, but these other factors are hardly recognised nor have any real input in the games themselves such that the Dominion is, by default, seen as the most important, and seemingly only, Terran faction.

I've heard the the argument that the UED makes the Sc universe "smaller" but having a single person and his Empire seemingly shrug off all attacks against it and still remain top-dog for no apparent/self-evident reason other than for author convenience/obligation is just as limiting. If the Dominion has become insignificant amongst Terran circles in BW, why is it still the major player amongst Terran circles in Sc2? Excluding "author intervention reasons", it has to be because they never became insignificant in the first place. If that's so, then showing how they became insignificant in BW must also be a mislead and waste of time.

I tried responding a few time, but as the last time took over an hour of typing, I've tried to cut this down.

The Terran Issue

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Originally Posted by Gradius

The sarcastic point here being that we take issue with the degree of rebuilding. Him lording over the other factions and maintaining his military strength as if nothing ever happened is the issue many people have.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Nope. But did you get the impression that Mengsk was going to rule a Confederacy-sized empire in SC2?

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Originally Posted by Gradius

The fact that they failed to make any sort of grab for power at the end of BW indicates that they have no interest in ruling, a serious anomaly that doesn't make any sense.

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I've taken these quotes as representing the Dominion issue. That the Dominion is more powerful than it should be, and the other factions lack initiative. (Turalyon makes a point on story, but I'll deal with that later). I'm willing to let the first slide. I can understand the case for it, even if I disagree with it. But here's the problem I have with the lack of initiative...what changes after Brood War?

-Change 1: The KMC and UP become independent.

-Change 2: The Dominion starts facing rebellion (e.g. the KLF), dissent (e.g. Camro Park), insurgency (e.g. Hauler)

Let's say I agree with the Dominion being too powerful. Fair enough. But what bugs me about this line of thought is that it's not giving the other factions enough credit. We've seen them take the initiative by declaring themselves independent in the first place. We've seen them make grabs at power, such as when the KMC took Chau Sara and Mar Sara (the Dominion annexing the latter notwithstanding). We've seen them spar with the Dominion such as Umoja's alliance with Hauler and Simonson, and the KMC supporting Raynor's anti-Dominion efforts along with sabotaging Dominion mining operations. This, to me, conveys that the other powers in the sector aren't willing to be passive.

And as for Gradius's Confederacy-sized empire line, well, seize of the bodies aside, I can't say I did expect that. I don't think that's the case either. But here's the thing - in Ghost, the first thing we hear of is the Dominion having rebuilt its forces, and facing a large scale insurgency from the KLF. In WoL, the first thing we do is launch a succesful rebellion. So, taking games by themselves, so far they met my expectations. Expectations that:

a) Mengsk would still be in power, and the Dominion rebuilt to an extent.

b) By extension of the weakening in Brood War, opposition to said Dominion.

So, yes. Let's say I accept the notion of the Dominion being more powerful than they should be. However, I cannot get behind the idea of every other power doing nothing, when we've seen them prove time and time again that they're not willing to just back down.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

In terms of the dynamics of the Terrans in general, BW might as well not have happened since everything now seems just like it was before BW happened. One could argue semantics about the supposed existence of other leaders and factions being there or not, but these other factors are hardly recognised nor have any real input in the games themselves such that the Dominion is, by default, seen as the most important, and seemingly only, Terran faction.

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That's a faulty line of thought. It seems to be that lack of presence in the story is the same thing as irrelevance. Well, by that logic, the KMC and UP's even smaller role in SC1/BW must mean that they're even smaller players then.

Here's the problem - from a storytelling standpoint, the KMC and UP aren't that relevant to SC2. Same way they're not that relevant to the terran campaign of SC1. Think about the goals of each:

-SC1: Overthrow the Confederacy

-WoL: Overthrow the Dominion until Kerrigan becomes the objective.

-HotS: Get revenge on Mengsk before seeking Amon.

So, yes. From a storytelling standpoint, the KMC and UP just aren't that relevant to either game. Even if SC1 featured the UP and KMC giving aid prior to Tarsonis, or aid to Raynor prior to Korhal or whatnot, the actual plot isn't going to be affected by it. It's the same thing I've mentioned in regards to all of the "lesser species" the protoss kept watch over prior to the Great War, and the question of what they're doing now since the Dae'Uhl is kaput. Personally, I'd love to see this explored, because I can only include that the fall of the Protoss Empire must have left a power vacuum of some kind. But I can't criticize SC2 for not doing this, because it's not relevant to the story.

Speaking of the protoss:

The Protoss Issue

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Not to mention the fact that Artanis himself states "we shall be watching you". Consider that line retconned, I guess?

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

The excuse for the lack of Protoss interference during WoL because they didn't care about Terran affairs, didn't have the capability or were not looking for trouble with the Zerg is completely bunk when you factor Selendis' involvement on Haven.

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I've chosen these two because they highlight two different states of mind. So, that said:

-Artanis: In all honesty, I'd forgotten that line. And in light of that line, I have to admit, it does cast some...iffiness, on SC2. I would still argue that the protoss have no reason to commit militarily prior to Char for the reasons I've provided. And while I can fanwank reasons for not them not knowing about Kerrigan's de-infestation until Kaldir, the line of them not keeping a close eye is a valid one. It might have made Kaldir more paletable if it was based on the notion that the protoss had tracked her to the world and made the first strike in an attempt to kill her based on Char.

-Selendis: I disagree with Turalyon's reasoning here though. What I took from Haven was that the protoss were being reactionary. Haven is on the edge of their space, and could host a zerg infestation. So in theory, they have the means to nip that infestation in the bud with minimal loss. This isn't really an interest in terran affairs being shown, it's indicative of a mindset that suggests reactionary defensive policy, to only get involved when you're potentially threatened in the immediate sense.

To enter complete fanwank territory (this isn't an argument, just idle theorizing), it kinda makes sense to me in a thematic/narrative sense why the protoss haven't done more up to this point. We've seen the protoss take the initiative in the interbellum period. So if the Protoss Protectorate has become so focused on internal matters due to Khalai-Nerazim tensions that it's abandoned its watchers on the wall (insert GoT/LotR reference here), then it does give more impetus to LotV. I'd theorized that the theme of the game would be transcendance, and while according to BlizzCon the theme is unity (which is not the same thing), then from a narrative standpoint, it does allow everything we've seen the protoss do and not do up to this point stand in contrast to LotV. To unite, get their act together, rise to the occasion, etc. Not that I have high hopes for the game after seeing said trailer, but, well, like I said, fanwank. LotV seems to be a story of the protoss as a whole, while WoL and HotS were very much Raynor and Kerrigan's stories. So if the purpose of LotV is to unify the protoss, have them get their act together, rise to the ocassion and all that fun stuff (well, fun for some people I guess), then, well, while it's not the focus I'd have preferred LotV to have (see my transcendance comment), then I can see it working narratively.

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Originally Posted by Hawki

But what bugs me about this line of thought is that it's not giving the other factions enough credit. We've seen them take the initiative by declaring themselves independent in the first place.

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Blame the games for not giving the other Terran factions enough credit. Someone who does not know the EU in any great detail would not know any wiser that there were other significant Terran factions.

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Originally Posted by Hawki

That's a faulty line of thought. It seems to be that lack of presence in the story is the same thing as irrelevance. Well, by that logic, the KMC and UP's even smaller role in SC1/BW must mean that they're even smaller players then.

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It's a natural inference, not faulty logic, if one doesn't have all the information. Someone who doesn't know all the details that are contained only within the EU, are left to make assumptions with the information at hand. That information from the games being that the Dominion is still hanging around after taking a beating so therefore they must be powerful. If there are other significant factions, they're just as good as not existing at all since the Dominion is still there being the top-dog.

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Originally Posted by Hawki

-SC1: Overthrow the Confederacy

-WoL: Overthrow the Dominion until Kerrigan becomes the objective.

-HotS: Get revenge on Mengsk before seeking Amon.

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I see you've conveniently left out BW in that the Terran component of that game was "Overthrow the Dominion until the Zerg become the objective", which is similar to your description of WoL.

HotS can also be described as "Overthrow the Dominion (the evil components of it at least)". The "before seeking Amon" bit doesn't even factor into it because it's just an afterthought voiceover right at the ending of the last cinematic in HotS.

Given that 3 installments have been about "overthrowing the Dominion" and that it took the Zerg to eventually topple it, it's easier to assume that the Dominion was always powerful and was never weakened in any significant way the first 2 times it was "weakened" (let alone overthrown...).

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Originally Posted by Hawki

So, yes. From a storytelling standpoint, the KMC and UP just aren't that relevant to either game. Even if SC1 featured the UP and KMC giving aid prior to Tarsonis, or aid to Raynor prior to Korhal or whatnot, the actual plot isn't going to be affected by it.

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What's your point? Mengsk and the Dominion aren't really relevant to the whole story of Sc1 either really. Especially when Raynor is the only Terran factor that is important at the end of Sc1' story.

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Originally Posted by Hawki

Haven is on the edge of their space, and could host a zerg infestation. So in theory, they have the means to nip that infestation in the bud with minimal loss. This isn't really an interest in terran affairs being shown, it's indicative of a mindset that suggests reactionary defensive policy, to only get involved when you're potentially threatened in the immediate sense.

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And yet they are willing to throwaway lives to fight Raynor in order to purge this worthless world. They ended up taking more losses than had they just let Raynor go at it alone and was a) proven right that the infestation was controllable and the Protoss could go home without fighting Raynor or b) proven wrong that the infestation was not controllable/ a lost cause and and then purge it afterward if they even needed to at all. Afterall, had Raynor chosen to support the Protoss, the infestation wasn't even that severe since the Raiders (a supposedly weak military force) was able to purge it all on their own.

That they are so insistent to purge a worthless world (to the Protoss) that they would fight a supposed friend in order to do that implies that the Protoss have a very priority in destroying the Zerg wherever they are and that they have the willingness and capability to do something about it should someone attempt to deny them that duty. Given all this and that Char (the main world of their nemesis) has emptied itself to attack the surrounding worlds, one would expect the Protoss to be curious, at the least, as to what the Terrans would be doing invading Char.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

It's a natural inference, not faulty logic, if one doesn't have all the information.

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No. That's a very unnatural response. I don't assume something is weak/gone if it doesn't feature in a story.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

That information from the games being that the Dominion is still hanging around after taking a beating so therefore they must be powerful.

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So, by that logic:

-X exists

-Therefore, X is powerful.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

If there are other significant factions, they're just as good as not existing at all since the Dominion is still there being the top-dog.

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-So, again:

-X doesn't feature in the story

-Therefore, X is irrelevant to the setting.

Newsflash - story and setting are two different things. I've already pointed out how erroneous it is to claim absence based on lack of presence. And to use another example, I only know that the Confederacy is the most powerful terran faction in SC1 because the manual and intro text tells me so. That fact in of itself never becomes relevant to the actual story, especially since Mengsk's motivations for overthrowing it aren't based on that fact.

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Originally Posted by Turlyon

I see you've conveniently left out BW in that the Terran component of that game was "Overthrow the Dominion until the Zerg become the objective", which is similar to your description of WoL.

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No, I left out BW because it's the only exception to the "overthrow rule" that's existed in the games so far. Every other overthrow of a terran government has been based on personal motivation (Mengsk, Raynor, Kerrigan). I can make reasonable inference that the Dominion is the most powerful faction in BW because the UED is focusing on it. That the Dominion is the most powerful terran faction is irrelevant to Kerrigan's motivations, and Raynor's can be summed up as a combination of the Dominion's tyranny, and his history with Mengsk. Even if the Dominion wasn't the most powerful faction in SC2, the story itself would be the same.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

HotS can also be described as "Overthrow the Dominion (the evil components of it at least)". The "before seeking Amon" bit doesn't even factor into it because it's just an afterthought voiceover right at the ending of the last cinematic in HotS.

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It actually comes into play at Skygeiir, if not Zerus - it's outright stated that Kerrigan's motivation is to seek out Amon after dealing with Mengsk.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Given that 3 installments have been about "overthrowing the Dominion" and that it took the Zerg to eventually topple it, it's easier to assume that the Dominion was always powerful and was never weakened in any significant way the first 2 times it was "weakened" (let alone overthrown...).

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No, we've had one installment about toppling the Dominion (BW), and two about toppling Mengsk, one that becomes about dealing with the zerg later. Raynor and Kerrigan have shown themselves to be happy to let the Dominion exist as a political entity.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

What's your point? Mengsk and the Dominion aren't really relevant to the whole story of Sc1 either really. Especially when Raynor is the only Terran factor that is important at the end of Sc1' story.

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My point is that presence in a story/lack of it is not an indication in of itself for relevance/presence in the world that story takes place in. If something I know to exist doesn't feature in a story, I don't automatically assume that it's become irrelevant to the setting or has ceased to exist in it.

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Originally Posted by Hawki

-X continues to exist despite suffering crippling setbacks

-Therefore, X is powerful.

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Fixed. You were misrepresenting the position via reductionism.

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Originally Posted by Hawki

-X doesn't feature in the story

-Therefore, X is irrelevant to the setting.

Newsflash - story and setting are two different things. I've already pointed out how erroneous it is to claim absence based on lack of presence. And to use another example, I only know that the Confederacy is the most powerful terran faction in SC1 because the manual and intro text tells me so. That fact in of itself never becomes relevant to the actual story, especially since Mengsk's motivations for overthrowing it aren't based on that fact.

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I never claimed absence at all, just that it's "as good as". There is a distinct lack of presence though and people will make of that as they will.

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Originally Posted by Hawki

No, I left out BW because it's the only exception to the "overthrow rule" that's existed in the games so far. Every other overthrow of a terran government has been based on personal motivation (Mengsk, Raynor, Kerrigan).

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What difference does that make? Motivation is motivation. You can't just ignore DuGalle's because his were orders originally given from up high. Who knows, DuGalle may have also had a personal motivation in bringing down a tyrant because he sees himself and the UED as the "good/better guys".

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Originally Posted by Hawki

I can make reasonable inference that the Dominion is the most powerful faction in BW because the UED is focusing on it. That the Dominion is the most powerful terran faction is irrelevant to Kerrigan's motivations, and Raynor's can be summed up as a combination of the Dominion's tyranny, and his history with Mengsk. Even if the Dominion wasn't the most powerful faction in SC2, the story itself would be the same.

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So, in roundabout fashion, you're saying that the Dominion are indeed the most powerful native K-sector Terran faction from end of Rebel Yell and BW all up until the end of HotS? If so, finally! :D

That's the whole point. Any supposed perturbation in Dominion power levels is inconsequential as they are never shown to be anything less than the "top-dog" amongst Terran circles.

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Originally Posted by Hawki

It actually comes into play at Skygeiir, if not Zerus - it's outright stated that Kerrigan's motivation is to seek out Amon after dealing with Mengsk.

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Structurally speaking, Skygeirr can be excised without affecting the main revenge story against Mengsk (much like the Protoss/Ihan crystal stuff in WoL being irrelevant to Raynor's story) and the trip to Zerus really just functions as just a plot coupon in order to enable her final revenge against Mengsk. All in all, there is no actual seeking of Amon anywhere within HotS whereas in WoL, there are actual attempts to "overthrow Dominion" before "Kerrigan becomes the objective" actually becomes a thing within the campaign.

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Originally Posted by Hawki

No, we've had one installment about toppling the Dominion (BW), and two about toppling Mengsk, one that becomes about dealing with the zerg later.

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The Dominion is an Empire with it's Emperor being Mengsk. It was a vehicle designed specifically to enable Mengsk's egomania. The political entity known as the Dominion would cease to exist without Mengsk. As such,
BW is just as much about toppling Mengsk (because he is the Dominion) as it is with the other examples. Also, this is not even going into the fact that the UED continued to hunt down Mengsk well after they had effectively defeated his Dominion on Korhal. If that's not considered "about toppling Mengsk", I don't know what is.

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Originally Posted by Hawki

If something I know to exist doesn't feature in a story, I don't automatically assume that it's become irrelevant to the setting or has ceased to exist in it.

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The question at hand is in regard to who is the most powerful Terran faction. The Dominion is clearly at the forefront in every game appearance they have had since they took over, with the one exception being the short-lived rule of the UED. As such, in accordance to this particular question, the existence of any other faction really is moot, no matter how strong ones opinions or the EU are about how relevant they may or may not be. That the Dominion is either weaker or stronger than it was at some other time is also moot since they have always been the top-dog/the ones that wield the most influence and power ever since it was incepted and up until the end of HotS.

Just so you know, this position isn't even wholly my own stance to begin with (it was FT's and I argued with him!) and I don't like it just as much as you do but there is a definite logic to it.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

The excuse for the lack of Protoss interference during WoL because they didn't care about Terran affairs, didn't have the capability or were not looking for trouble with the Zerg is completely bunk when you factor Selendis' involvement on Haven.

Here, we have the most currently distinguished military leader of the Protoss willing to waste Protoss lives over a pissing contest with Raynor all for the sake of burning a world that may or may not even be infested. It is obvious the Protoss care enough about the Zerg that they want to fight an alien friend whose politics they care nothing about just so they can extinguish a world that is not even in their space nor holds any value to them of Zerg. That they have the time and resources to prioritise something as pointless as this makes their complete lack of curiosity/absence about what Raynor does do during the end of WoL in contrast completely baffling.

As to the issue with Mengsk, Grad's summary sums it pretty well:



In terms of the dynamics of the Terrans in general, BW might as well not have happened since everything now seems just like it was before BW happened. One could argue semantics about the supposed existence of other leaders and factions being there or not, but these other factors are hardly recognised nor have any real input in the games themselves such that the Dominion is, by default, seen as the most important, and seemingly only, Terran faction.

I've heard the the argument that the UED makes the Sc universe "smaller" but having a single person and his Empire seemingly shrug off all attacks against it and still remain top-dog for no apparent/self-evident reason other than for author convenience/obligation is just as limiting. If the Dominion has become insignificant amongst Terran circles in BW, why is it still the major player amongst Terran circles in Sc2? Excluding "author intervention reasons", it has to be because they never became insignificant in the first place. If that's so, then showing how they became insignificant in BW must also be a mislead and waste of time.

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When you're fighting the Zerg, the Protoss have learned not to take chances and all that. Hence what happened on Haven. It was logical, I didn't see Selendis's concern was complete BS or anything like that.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

It was logical, I didn't see Selendis's concern was complete BS or anything like that.

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I didn't say it was BS or illogical from a third party view (although one can definitely opine from that position, too). I was making the point of how serious Selendis' (and the Protoss) concern was when it came to the Zerg and how that concern somehow doesn't translate into them having any involvement in Char later on. We can't say that the Protoss were too weak or cautious because they fought Raynor with all the weapons at their disposal and were willing to potentially lose precious Protoss lives over this disagreement in. We can't say they don't care about the Zerg because they went out of their way to some backwater planet that's not even on their turf to burn it on some notion that there maybe Zerg on it. We can't say the Protoss don't know what was happening and don't want to take any chances because they didn't know what was happening on Haven either but still went there to burn it anyway in a preventative fashion on the off-notion that it was infested (if they can know something as obscure as this on an obscure world - why can't they know of the bigger goings-on on Char?).

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

(if they can know something as obscure as this on an obscure world - why can't they know of the bigger goings-on on Char?).

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See this part goes into the short fic Cold Symmetry. From that short fic that Blizzard made (which took place shortly after WoL ended), it seemed that the Protoss had discovered the swarm had fragmented. They didn't know any details and what not, but it's heavily implied they knew SOMETHING happened to Kerrigan on Char.

And because I didn't stir up enough trouble last time I was here, I'm back! Yay!

Honestly, the main problem with figuring out what the people know about Mengsk is that Blizzard itself has never been consistent. During SC and BW, there's no reason to assume that the people know very much at all about things. They probably know about Kerrigan, but even that's questionable, as DuGalle only apparently learns of her existence at the tail end of the BW Terran missions. You'd think he'd have heard about it sooner if the people he was conquering knew enough about her. Presumably most of the knowledge about her would have come to light in the latter part of the Zerg missions, given that Mengsk had to legitimize his attack against her (see: last mission) to his people. In short, it's debatable what they know based on the original games alone.

Based on the novels, they should have known everything at the tail end of the first Terran missions, if Liberty's Crusade is to be called canon. Quite frankly, that book is offensively boring, not to mention absurd when you compare the book to Wings of Liberty. The whole point of the anti-Mengsk missions was to give the Dominion people information about how evil their leader was, but nothing they learn wasn't already in Liberty's recordings in Liberty's Crusade. Thus, it's not logically possible for both LC and WoL to be canon.

I did see the post someone made about the comics. I haven't read them, but they look amazing from what was posted. Hopefully they make Mengsk as scary as he should have been in SCII.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

Honestly, the main problem with figuring out what the people know about Mengsk is that Blizzard itself has never been consistent. During SC and BW, there's no reason to assume that the people know very much at all about things. They probably know about Kerrigan, but even that's questionable, as DuGalle only apparently learns of her existence at the tail end of the BW Terran missions. You'd think he'd have heard about it sooner if the people he was conquering knew enough about her. Presumably most of the knowledge about her would have come to light in the latter part of the Zerg missions, given that Mengsk had to legitimize his attack against her (see: last mission) to his people. In short, it's debatable what they know based on the original games alone.

Based on the novels, they should have known everything at the tail end of the first Terran missions, if Liberty's Crusade is to be called canon. Quite frankly, that book is offensively boring, not to mention absurd when you compare the book to Wings of Liberty. The whole point of the anti-Mengsk missions was to give the Dominion people information about how evil their leader was, but nothing they learn wasn't already in Liberty's recordings in Liberty's Crusade. Thus, it's not logically possible for both LC and WoL to be canon.

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I didn't find Liberty's Crusade utter crap. Anyways the point here is there's always ways to bend the public to your will via the media. Mengsk probably said UNN was the only reliable network, but in reality used it as a means to hide his crimes. As for why the public followed, let's just say if you keep them in the dark long enough, they'll believe otherwise.

It's no different than the media being used today, though on a narrower scale.

I'm aware of how the media is used by tyrants. That's why Mengsk's stupid antics in WoL were so offensive. Honestly, I just can't get behind a wimpy bad guy since reading The Gulag Archipelago.

Eh, you can cut Liberty's Crusade some slack if you like, but there's no reason to read it if you've played the first Terran missions in Starcraft.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

ased on the novels, they should have known everything at the tail end of the first Terran missions, if Liberty's Crusade is to be called canon. Quite frankly, that book is offensively boring, not to mention absurd when you compare the book to Wings of Liberty. The whole point of the anti-Mengsk missions was to give the Dominion people information about how evil their leader was, but nothing they learn wasn't already in Liberty's recordings in Liberty's Crusade. Thus, it's not logically possible for both LC and WoL to be canon.

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No. Just no. You're assuming that Liberty's broadcasts can reach everyone, that everyone is going to believe them, that everyone is in the right state of mind to believe them, etc. If anything, the two works sync up nicely.

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Originally Posted by Hawki

No. Just no. You're assuming that Liberty's broadcasts can reach everyone, that everyone is going to believe them, that everyone is in the right state of mind to believe them, etc. If anything, the two works sync up nicely.

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Uh....really? If Kerrigan can apparently hear them, then they certainly could have possibly reached any number of people. Maybe even Kel-Morians, Umojans, and Protoss. Given the number of planets and ships running around in the sector, and the fact that there's no reason to assume Liberty can't send his transmission more than once, the chances of vast numbers of people hearing about it and then passing it along to their friends is very high.

Besides, even if that weren't the case, how does that sync up? At best, it simply means nothing at all to SCII.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

I'm aware of how the media is used by tyrants. That's why Mengsk's stupid antics in WoL were so offensive. Honestly, I just can't get behind a wimpy bad guy since reading The Gulag Archipelago.

Eh, you can cut Liberty's Crusade some slack if you like, but there's no reason to read it if you've played the first Terran missions in Starcraft.

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I never read The Gulag Archipelago. Explain please.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

I never read The Gulag Archipelago. Explain please.

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Oh, that? It's a nonfiction testimonial going into massive detail about Stalin's prison camps, from arrest, to trial, to sentencing and travel to prisons, to camps, escape, and finally, exile. The author, Solzhenitsyn, goes into detail about Stalin's lies and control of information. It's pretty freaky, and after reading all three volumes, I can't help but compare all bad guys to Stalin. Seriously, Mengsk's antics in SCII feel even more ridiculous once you see someone dominate a nation more effectively than him.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

Oh, that? It's a nonfiction testimonial going into massive detail about Stalin's prison camps, from arrest, to trial, to sentencing and travel to prisons, to camps, escape, and finally, exile. The author, Solzhenitsyn, goes into detail about Stalin's lies and control of information. It's pretty freaky, and after reading all three volumes, I can't help but compare all bad guys to Stalin. Seriously, Mengsk's antics in SCII feel even more ridiculous once you see someone dominate a nation more effectively than him.

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This is exactly why the western allies were in disbelief in 1945 when told by the German people that Hitler was so skilled at bending the whole of the German population to his will so easily. To the western allies, NO ONE has skills of that magnitude.

But that's what Mengsk should have been. That's why I always hated that Kerrigan was retconned to have killed his parents. That makes him have a legitimate reason to want to hate her, when originally I assumed he was disposing of his allies like old paper towels. It made him scary when any of the people around him could be killed or abandoned whenever he felt like.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

But that's what Mengsk should have been. That's why I always hated that Kerrigan was retconned to have killed his parents. That makes him have a legitimate reason to want to hate her, when originally I assumed he was disposing of his allies like old paper towels. It made him scary when any of the people around him could be killed or abandoned whenever he felt like.

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Very much this. Mengsk seemed like a true sociopath in Sc1 in that his actions seemed devoid of moral obligation (whereas the retcon of him taking revenge is based on him having a moral obligation to abandon Kerrigan in response to her killing of his parents). This warped sensibility of his was what made him unique and different from the more morally and conscience affected Raynor and Kerrigan. It was this that gave Mengsk his teeth and a reason for being a formidable adversary.

But since they flanderised his pettiness and egomania in BW, he immediately stopped becoming a threat worth worrying about. It's why WoL and HotS feel kind of gimped when having Mengsk as the main adversary.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

But since they flanderised his pettiness and egomania in BW, he immediately stopped becoming a threat worth worrying about. It's why WoL and HotS feel kind of gimped when having Mengsk as the main adversary.

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And he wasn't even much of a main adversary, more like a obstacle that has to be removed because of his sheer naiveness to everything