New Zerg data: Biology

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Yes, but in Brood War, the Zerg 'factions' are a direct consequence of the Swarm's failure on Aiur. They are broken.

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What's so necessarily bad about it? That there was a perfect story opportunity for the Zerg to redefine themselves without an Overmind. This could've easily been the concept brief of Primal Zerg instead of the lame one we got in HotS.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Well, in the manual the Zerg's 'purity of essence' is directly contrasted to the Protoss' 'failure of essence', which was explicitly the beginnings of the Aeon of Strife and the severing of their primal link. If internal strife and division are a 'failure of essence' and the Zerg were created to be a direct response to that failure, then the hivemind is definitely the purity of essence.

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I get that but that just means it's a quality that can be (and has been) lost through the death of the Overmind. I don't think the Protoss can lose their quality (purity of form) in such a way, so why would the Xel'Naga make something that can be potentially lost but is yet supposed to be greater than their first creation? It's partly the reason why, in the past, I thought the Overmind wasn't truly dead (not in the sense of resurrection mind you) or that it could ever be killed. If it could be removed, the Zerg are forever neutered unless we have a concept of primal Zerg (of which, I would prefer to define simply as "Zerg coping/existing well without Overmind guidance") to keep them relevant/viable.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

Which would make sense, as the ORIGINAL Zerg started off as nothing more than insect parasites. Hence it's likely that even for the primal Zerg, the large animal forms are not the real primal Zerg at all, and the real primal Zerg are just the parasites living inside those hosts.

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But the first Zerg parasites actually integrated into their hosts, fused into and steered the evolution of it's host species through generations. There would not be any original Zerg parasites left because they would have mutated with their hosts into something different a long time ago or died off since they needed to hijack hosts in order to avoid being picked off by predators.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

What Zerg are has always been the Xel'Naga engineered species. This is a fictitious story we're talking about, you know? We'd known what the Zerg were for, what, fourteen years already?

But if you want to be stubborn about it, it's the Xel'Naga who named the Zerg. Defining the Zerg by what they were before they became the Zerg would be as accurate as defining Terrans as single-celled organisms, because they evolved from such.

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Ironically, naming them was among the VERY few things the Xel'Naga did.

If you remember in the SC1 manual, the Xel'Naga for the most part just sat back and let the Zerg do all the evolutions themselves.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

What's so necessarily bad about it? That there was a perfect story opportunity for the Zerg to redefine themselves without an Overmind. This could've easily been the concept brief of Primal Zerg instead of the lame one we got in HotS.

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It's not bad, it's actually quite good. It means that the events of StarCraft had consequences on the Zerg and changed their very existence. If you mean that the Primal Zerg could have developed as smarter Zerg seeking independence after being released from the Overmind's Hivemind (much like Kerrigan herself), then yes, that could have been a reasonable concept for the Primal Zerg.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I get that but that just means it's a quality that can be (and has been) lost through the death of the Overmind. I don't think the Protoss can lose their quality (purity of form) in such a way, so why would the Xel'Naga make something that can be potentially lost but is yet supposed to be greater than their first creation? It's partly the reason why, in the past, I thought the Overmind wasn't truly dead (not in the sense of resurrection mind you) or that it could ever be killed. If it could be removed, the Zerg are forever neutered unless we have a concept of primal Zerg (of which, I would prefer to define simply as "Zerg coping/existing well without Overmind guidance") to keep them relevant/viable.

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Sure, but such Zerg would no longer have purity of essence. The 'purities' aren't inborn, they are the result of the Xel'Naga's engineering. The same way that a Protoss who is somehow crippled no longer has purity of form.

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

Que no los dos?

So it's impossible for you to believe that there might be an ulterior motive to it?

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"Now yes, I get that argument from ignorance can be used with abandon here, but that's not really the point."

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

If you remember in the SC1 manual, the Xel'Naga for the most part just sat back and let the Zerg do all the evolutions themselves.

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Not really. They developed the ability to assimilate species because of the xel'naga's initial protogenetics.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Not really. They developed the ability to assimilate species because of the xel'naga's initial protogenetics.

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I'll have to recheck the manual for it then. If that's true I wonder just what the Xel'Naga might have done to the first spawning pool on Zerus.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

If you mean that the Primal Zerg could have developed as smarter Zerg seeking independence after being released from the Overmind's Hivemind (much like Kerrigan herself), then yes, that could have been a reasonable concept for the Primal Zerg.

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Would make more sense, too. Without the Overmind, the Zerg would have no choice but to revert/resort to their most original (primal) state to get by.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Sure, but such Zerg would no longer have purity of essence. The 'purities' aren't inborn, they are the result of the Xel'Naga's engineering. The same way that a Protoss who is somehow crippled no longer has purity of form.

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It would be interesting to see how they can retain this purity in other way though. Aside from the cripples and Dragoon/Immortal/Stalker pilots, the Dark Templar would also be categorised as having no purity of form too because they all cut off their nerve tendrils but are, in someways, greater than the normal Protoss who have all their parts/purity of form. What about Archons? They have very slight physical forms but are still characterised as being the fullest/best expression of the Protoss.

Afterall, the purities are really just a definition ascribed by the Xel'Naga to fit a collection of observations they made. If we look at the real-word definition of "essence", it means it is something of intrinsic value that determines its character that without which, they would not exist. If this was the literal case, the death of the Overmind would also mean that the Zerg should cease to exist as well because they are defined by it and now it is lost. We know this is not true, because the Zerg still existed before the Overmind was created. That's why I like my definition for the Zerg's purity of essence.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Not really. They developed the ability to assimilate species because of the xel'naga's initial protogenetics.

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That's an interesting point. The Xel'naga only manipulated their ability to survive the torrential firestorms on Zerus. Whether the Xel'Naga also manipulated them to burrow into other host creatures or whether they developed this ability on their own is another matter. This brings the question of whether the original Zerg were really parasitic to begin with or not.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

That's an interesting point. The Xel'naga only manipulated their ability to survive the torrential firestorms on Zerus. Whether the Xel'Naga also manipulated them to burrow into other host creatures or whether they developed this ability on their own is another matter. This brings the question of whether the original Zerg were really parasitic to begin with or not.

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Well, remember what Zurvan said about the pool: it was from there that the first Zerg was born, where one organism split into two, and the multiplying continued.

Thus by the time the Xel'Naga arrived on Zerus, these had already been plentiful.

To me however, most of the Zerg evolution was done by themselves. But at the same time, if the Xel'Naga was responsible for the very FIRST step that kick started it all and from there the Zerg could just take over themselves....

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

It would be interesting to see how they can retain this purity in other way though. Aside from the cripples and Dragoon/Immortal/Stalker pilots, the Dark Templar would also be categorised as having no purity of form too because they all cut off their nerve tendrils but are, in someways, greater than the normal Protoss who have all their parts/purity of form. What about Archons? They have very slight physical forms but are still characterised as being the fullest/best expression of the Protoss.

Afterall, the purities are really just a definition ascribed by the Xel'Naga to fit a collection of observations they made. If we look at the real-word definition of "essence", it means it is something of intrinsic value that determines its character that without which, they would not exist. If this was the literal case, the death of the Overmind would also mean that the Zerg should cease to exist as well because they are defined by it and now it is lost. We know this is not true, because the Zerg still existed before the Overmind was created. That's why I like my definition for the Zerg's purity of essence.

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Yeah, I'm operating under the Xel'Naga's definitions of the 'purities', because I don't think those are things that can exist as absolutes.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

Well, remember what Zurvan said about the pool: it was from there that the first Zerg was born, where one organism split into two, and the multiplying continued.

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I cannot help but remember all this Zerus stuff unfortunately. For Zerg lovers out there, its the equivalent of pouring salt into a wound that was opened in WoL. :p

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I cannot help but remember all this Zerus stuff unfortunately. For Zerg lovers out there, its the equivalent of pouring salt into a wound that was opened in WoL. :p

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Well, for me, I still believe there was at least a SLIGHT chance that the primal Zerg concept introduced in HotS could have worked despite what was said in the SC1 manual.

But because of the Dark Templar Saga series, there's NO way the same could work with the Protoss, but I don't blame Christie Golden for it, she still did a great job on those books.

I'm uncertain whether to post a thread about this, or just set my idea here. Oh well, here we go. :p

The Primal Zerg Imperative

I believe there is evidence from press conferences and information released by Blizzard that the creative team behind the campaign felt a need to incorporate the Primal Zerg, in one form or another. The elements of self-awareness, sentience and self-directed evolution are critical to the Primal Zerg identity. Whether in the form of Metamorphs, created by Kerrigan, capable of directing their own evolution; the Swarm itself gaining sentience, as hinted at in the leaked HotS epilogue trailer; or the rejects of the original Zerg lifeform pursuing their own divergent evolution, the Primal Zerg of the Zerus Arc.

What do you think that reason was? And how would you have introduced the Primal Zerg concept into the story?

Well, to a degree, the primal Zerg function a little like how the Protoss do, given the individuality part. Remember, this was why the Protoss experiment fell short of ideal expectations, because the Xel'Naga realized they pushed the experiment too far and too quickly, and the Protoss began to value individual identity and all that.

It would appear the same thing happened to the primal Zerg part, but not to the same extent like what happened on Aiur, given that they did not develop into a society, and probably relied more on pack leaders and such.

From what I saw from the Zerus missions, the pack leaders function in the ruling through fear method, hence why other primal Zerg don't rise up to try and dethrone them, at least not for a whiles. Even so, the Xel'Naga might have seen that because of the pack leaders and all that, there's still room for individuality and everything, despite the fact that self-directed evolution was suitable to their needs.

Aside from just free from Amon's influence and corruption, I'm curious if the corrupted Zerg are even capable of merging with the Protoss to form the new generation of Xel'Naga. Maybe since Amon corrupted the Overmind and changing its directive to attack the Protoss, he felt there's no need for the corrupted Zerg to merge with them, hence why the hybrids could only be created via genetic splicing and everything.

I see Zerg conflict as a pure form of evolution. Zerg creatures will kill each other to preserve the best evolutionary genes. This will eventually lead to a better Swarm. Besides the violence, there's nothing else that can be related between this strife and Terran or Protoss conflicts. Zerg leaders will fight each other to preserve the species. The BW plot was acceptable, because Kerrigan was not a suitable leader for the Swarm. She used the swarm for her own conflicts, and this was fround upon by the Cerebrates. Brood Mothers are inferior to Cerebrates because they do not share the same level of Zerg diplomacy. This is why Kerrigan had to survive WoL and HotS. Without her, the Queens could be overwhelmed easily by Amon.

Here is why I believe the Primal Zerg were introduced by Blizzard. The liberation of the Swarm was a much better plot tool against the Amon threat, from the Zerg perspective. With some form of laws, probably imposed over Queens, the Swarm could overwhelm their own leaders if their goals involved the selfdestruction of the Swarm. Before the actual Zerus arc, Kerrigan is gradually infested without the Amon directive. She makes Queens smarter and kills Megnsk to reduce the Terran Dominion support of the Hybrid programs. Due to the new laws of preservation of the Zerg, the Swarm and Kerrigan leave the sector to avoid becoming victims in Amon's war. However, this idea did not fly because the Terran and Protoss were left to deal with the almighty Amon. So, Kerrigan was made stronger trough her visit of Zerus and was hurled directly at Amon. Now, the Terrans and Protoss only have to deal with smaller conflicts. Blizzard created "tribes" because that's how far they felt evolution had gone in Zerus on its own. As well, ancient creatures like Zurvan were created to narrate the Amon plot.

If I was in charge of introducing the Zerus arc, I would have introduced a wilder Zerus. Without packs nor tribes, this planet would be a constant battlefield between meta-organisms. Everything in Zerus has evolved from the original Zerg genome. However, through the active and rapid assimilation of genetic information no species would have reached the top of the food chain. When one species did reach the top others would mutate to counter its domination over the ecosystem.

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Originally Posted by The_Blade

Here is why I believe the Primal Zerg were introduced by Blizzard. The liberation of the Swarm was a much better plot tool against the Amon threat, from the Zerg perspective. With some form of laws, probably imposed over Queens, the Swarm could overwhelm their own leaders if their goals involved the selfdestruction of the Swarm. Before the actual Zerus arc, Kerrigan is gradually infested without the Amon directive. She makes Queens smarter and kills Megnsk to reduce the Terran Dominion support of the Hybrid programs. Due to the new laws of preservation of the Zerg, the Swarm and Kerrigan leave the sector to avoid becoming victims in Amon's war. However, this idea did not fly because the Terran and Protoss were left to deal with the almighty Amon. So, Kerrigan was made stronger trough her visit of Zerus and was hurled directly at Amon. Now, the Terrans and Protoss only have to deal with smaller conflicts. Blizzard created "tribes" because that's how far they felt evolution had gone in Zerus on its own. As well, ancient creatures like Zurvan were created to narrate the Amon plot.

If I was in charge of introducing the Zerus arc, I would have introduced a wilder Zerus. Without packs nor tribes, this planet would be a constant battlefield between meta-organisms. Everything in Zerus has evolved from the original Zerg genome. However, through the active and rapid assimilation of genetic information no species would have reached the top of the food chain. When one species did reach the top others would mutate to counter its domination over the ecosystem.

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This wasn't what Blizzard said about the Queens and Broodmothers. According to them (and on the SC wiki), even the regular Queens were based on the Kerrigan's own template, though to a smaller degree than the broodmothers, because she felt the Cerebrates were too impure or something.

I'm still unsure about the overwhelming of their own leaders part. It was never really said how the Zerg society functioned on Zerus BEFORE the Overmind was created. It was only AFTER the Overmind was created that a whole Hierarchy and such structural order was built.

I also don't see her dealing with the main part of Amon while the Protoss only have to deal with smaller conflicts. Amon had known about the primal Zerg for quite a while before he corrupted the Overmind, he would have known their weaknesses and such.

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

What do you think that reason was? And how would you have introduced the Primal Zerg concept into the story?

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Simply, I think the reason was just to provide another perspective on Zerg that was not tied intimately to one character or the other (like the Overmind or Kerrigan). It's admirable in itself and has plenty of potential but the realisation of it and the execution was terrible (a very common trait of Sc2 in general).

The way I would have done it was noted in my previous couple posts in this thread. At the least, it avoids the throwing of the initial iteration of Zerg under a bus the way HotS seems happy to do. Mechanically speaking, I see my concept of Primal Zerg as being a natural extension/evolution of the typical Zerg as we knew them much in the same way the Dark Templar/Nerazim served as an extension of the typical Protoss that we had been accustomed to be. I don't necessarily see them as having to be something completely new, isolated and segregated on Zerus in order to give them any weight or credence. And like the Dark Templar, the concept of Primal Zerg doesn't necessarily mean they have to be "better" in almost every way either.

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Originally Posted by The_Blade

The BW plot was acceptable, because Kerrigan was not a suitable leader for the Swarm.

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+1 for emphasis! Instead of a universal will that embodies the motivation of all Zerg (improvement of the greater self known as Zerg) in a bottom-up way, we have a single will dominating the motivation of all Zerg in a top-down way. Would have been nice to seen Kerrigan's deinfestation in WoL being permanent in order to allow a new form of Zerg evolve and do fine on its own.

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Originally Posted by The_Blade

Here is why I believe the Primal Zerg were introduced by Blizzard. The liberation of the Swarm was a much better plot tool against the Amon threat, from the Zerg perspective. With some form of laws, probably imposed over Queens, the Swarm could overwhelm their own leaders if their goals involved the selfdestruction of the Swarm. Before the actual Zerus arc, Kerrigan is gradually infested without the Amon directive. She makes Queens smarter and kills Megnsk to reduce the Terran Dominion support of the Hybrid programs. Due to the new laws of preservation of the Zerg, the Swarm and Kerrigan leave the sector to avoid becoming victims in Amon's war. However, this idea did not fly because the Terran and Protoss were left to deal with the almighty Amon. So, Kerrigan was made stronger trough her visit of Zerus and was hurled directly at Amon. Now, the Terrans and Protoss only have to deal with smaller conflicts. Blizzard created "tribes" because that's how far they felt evolution had gone in Zerus on its own. As well, ancient creatures like Zurvan were created to narrate the Amon plot.

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I'm not sure about this. If Amon has taken millenia to orchestrate the down fall of all the Xel'Naga's creations, the Zerg will never be able to truly run away. The real problem with the above is Kerrigan in general. If we are to believe that she was under Amon's influence after she was deinfested, it would have been telegraphed in some way. Instead we get the impression that the deinfestation in WoL would've removed any Amon influence if anything given her unusual fatalistic behaviour being uncharacteristic in WoL. If she was ever under Amon's influence (before or after deinfestation in WoL), she could have directed the Zerg to run away at any time or do nothing allowing Amon to stomp the Protoss more easily. That's why Zerus had to be introduced, because it had to serve as an unnatural plot device to move the story in a certain way and to provide clunky exposition and rules to setup the final direction for Kerrigan.

With that in mind, it might've been better had she been removed completely from the Zerg by the deinfestation at the ending of WoL because the Zerg would've then had to confront Amon along with the Terrans and Protoss. That way we would've gotten a real Zerg perspective.

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Originally Posted by The_Blade

If I was in charge of introducing the Zerus arc, I would have introduced a wilder Zerus. Without packs nor tribes, this planet would be a constant battlefield between meta-organisms. Everything in Zerus has evolved from the original Zerg genome. However, through the active and rapid assimilation of genetic information no species would have reached the top of the food chain. When one species did reach the top others would mutate to counter its domination over the ecosystem.

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But why would you have it at all in HotS since no matter how you slice it, it was just an excuse for a plot device?

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I'm not sure about this. If Amon has taken millenia to orchestrate the down fall of all the Xel'Naga's creations, the Zerg will never be able to truly run away. The real problem with the above is Kerrigan in general. If we are to believe that she was under Amon's influence after she was deinfested, it would have been telegraphed in some way. Instead we get the impression that the deinfestation in WoL would've removed any Amon influence if anything given her unusual fatalistic behaviour being uncharacteristic in WoL. If she was ever under Amon's influence (before or after deinfestation in WoL), she could have directed the Zerg to run away at any time or do nothing allowing Amon to stomp the Protoss more easily. That's why Zerus had to be introduced, because it had to serve as an unnatural plot device to move the story in a certain way and to provide clunky exposition and rules to setup the final direction for Kerrigan.

With that in mind, it might've been better had she been removed completely from the Zerg by the deinfestation at the ending of WoL because the Zerg would've then had to confront Amon along with the Terrans and Protoss. That way we would've gotten a real Zerg perspective.

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But you DON'T KNOW if Amon really took that long for orchestrate the downfall. Zurvan made it clear that Amon desired the Zerg as a weapon. He didn't say how long after arriving on Zerus did Amon see it that way. The SC1 manual didn't exactly say WHEN the Xel'Naga made the Overmind after arriving on Zerus.

Plus I get the feeling Amon didn't really have to "orchestrate" much at all. The Zerg evolution was done by themselves, the Xel'Naga merely gave them the first step to kick start it off. If that's true, all Amon had to do was sit back and wait for a few thousand years, and then corrupt the Overmind, and that was the end of the matter.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

But why would you have it at all in HotS since no matter how you slice it, it was just an excuse for a plot device?

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I would have liked to see the Zerg return to their origins in order to purify the remaining Amon taint from their "corrupted" design. In my head, Zerus was left as a barren rock because Amon wanted the Zerg to follow his design. However, life found a way and the design of the Xel'Naga was stronger in Zerus than in the Swarm. Abathur would be free from the taint, as well. He would now engineer the best Swarm and not Amon's swarm. Moreover, I would have liked to see Zeratul be more than a doomsayer. With his collection of exclusive information (Hybrid labs, Overmind's link, and Tassadar's message), he would have built a rift to Zerus through the Xel'Naga Warp Gate on Aiur. The rift would open at one of the ruined worldships on Zerus' orbit, with details of the Overmind's memories of its attack on the Xel'Naga. By this moment, Zeratul knows Amon's plan can be adapted; because he has already tried several things to stop it. So, he pins all his hope down to the possible surivival of the original Zerg genome in Zerus. Like I postulated before, they did not find a primordial soup of Zerg bacteria on a wasteland. Instead they found a wild, chaotic world.

Two conflicting forces act against the Zeratul/Kerrigan alliance. As soon as the rift is opened, Hybrid forces start moving towards Aiur; and once the Zerg arrive at Zerus, Abathur splits from the hive cluster and starts to create an army from the planet's biology. Kerrigan must capture Abathur and then throw him into a primal Zerg spawning pool so that he is assimilated into the Zerg and not the other way around. So, Abathur is reborn with the original Zerg template and he starts to reconstitute the rest of the Swarm (including Kerrigan). The Zerg return to Aiur, like beautiful butterflies, and find an empty Protoss Camp. Zeratul reveals himself as the only survivor, because the rest of his DT friends destroyed the Void Seeker on the Hybrid strike forces creating a [insert destructive force here].

The rest of the story can take the same path.

Turalyon, if I understand your idea for the Primal Zerg correctly, you're saying that they'd be an evolution of the feral Zerg that adapted to surviving without an overriding will?

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

With that in mind, it might've been better had she been removed completely from the Zerg by the deinfestation at the ending of WoL because the Zerg would've then had to confront Amon along with the Terrans and Protoss. That way we would've gotten a real Zerg perspective.

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Kerrigan should have been removed from the narrative almsot entirely, and Raynor too. The thing with Wings of Liberty's 'happy ending' is that it only works if it's an actual ending. I remember predicting at the time that if Blizzard did choose to keep Kerrigan as the protagonist for Heart of the Swam, it would invalidate everything that happened in Wings of Liberty (and it did). They say they killed off Mengsk because his story was done, but after Wings that was far more true of Raynor and Kerrigan.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Turalyon, if I understand your idea for the Primal Zerg correctly, you're saying that they'd be an evolution of the feral Zerg that adapted to surviving without an overriding will?



Kerrigan should have been removed from the narrative almsot entirely, and Raynor too. The thing with Wings of Liberty's 'happy ending' is that it only works if it's an actual ending. I remember predicting at the time that if Blizzard did choose to keep Kerrigan as the protagonist for Heart of the Swam, it would invalidate everything that happened in Wings of Liberty (and it did). They say they killed off Mengsk because his story was done, but after Wings that was far more true of Raynor and Kerrigan.

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It SHOULD have been more of true Raynor and Kerrigan, but that was only stressed in Flashpoint. Christie Golden explained that the fans all knew of their story's beginning and ending, but no one knew what happened in the middle, which was what Flashpoint tried to address.

Personally, I felt that was a good idea to show how things went in the SoK, and then it went downhill in HotS yet again.

Ironically, what you said about WoL's ending was similar to what Metzen said back at Blizzcon 2011, that the end scene of Raynor carrying Kerrigan off into the sunrise (because I think it was dawn on Char at that time) was NOT the happy ending everyone was thinking. Hence why the HotS ending, while still better than the BW ending, may not be exactly what we think it is...

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

But you DON'T KNOW if Amon really took that long for orchestrate the downfall. Zurvan made it clear that Amon desired the Zerg as a weapon.

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Yes, we do. As Zurvan provides exposition regarding Amon's influence all the way back to the creation of the Overmind and the corruption of the Zerg, it's quite clear that Amon has intended to wreck Xel'Nagan creations at least since that time. That could've been the germ for his genocidal plans that came soon after. Given that all of the aforementioned is considered ancient history to what is happening now in Sc2 and that Amon's agents are still following his lead (up to and including resurrecting him to help with their plans), Amon must have been planning contingencies for the destruction of Xel'Naga creations the the whole time in between now and then.

I wonder, if Raynor can call cool his jets and confuse Kerrigan and the Queen of Blades being two different things in 5 years, why can't Amon just "let it go" given that he's had millenia? That'd be an interesting twist, we'd have Amon waking up only to have changed his mind, becomes a good guy and then helps the races fight off the Hybrids and his servants led by Duran (who comes back from the dead).

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Originally Posted by The_Blade

I would have liked to see the Zerg return to their origins in order to purify the remaining Amon taint from their "corrupted" design.

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Would have been better if the Zerg hadn't been retconned as being "all corrupted" in the first place. Therefore, there'll be no need for the plot-device known as "Zerus".

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Turalyon, if I understand your idea for the Primal Zerg correctly, you're saying that they'd be an evolution of the feral Zerg that adapted to surviving without an overriding will?

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Yes!! Like the Dark Templar, it'll seemingly be just a slight difference but with the potential for huge ramifications.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Kerrigan should have been removed from the narrative almsot entirely, and Raynor too. The thing with Wings of Liberty's 'happy ending' is that it only works if it's an actual ending. I remember predicting at the time that if Blizzard did choose to keep Kerrigan as the protagonist for Heart of the Swam, it would invalidate everything that happened in Wings of Liberty (and it did). They say they killed off Mengsk because his story was done, but after Wings that was far more true of Raynor and Kerrigan.

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I've mentioned something to this effect before. Much as I disliked the ending of WoL (it was more to do with it not being earnt throughout WoL's story rather than personal preference), it was the only thing of major import in terms of status quo change in WoL. Before HotS came out, I expressed the difficulty of forming a Zerg-focused continuation if Kerrigan was also to be the main character especially given that WoL had essentially made her a Terran again. As you can see, Kerrigan is the main problem here and it's all due to them feeling obliged to have her as the main character.

Even then, I complained about Sc2 having a potential Terran heavy focus and it turned out to be true. HotS was more about the affairs of Terrans with the Zerg just being a backdrop. This could explain why they probably had to add Zerus to help counter-balance the heavy Terran motivations and elements in the story. I had hoped that if Kerrigan were to be infested again, it'd be best to have it at the end of HotS so we could at least explore the ramifications of her deinfestation throughout the installment... but then this would be at cross-purpose of having the installment supposedly be about Zerg.

I then postulated that if they had to focus on Kerrigan and the Zerg, it would've been better had she done away with Mengsk very early in HotS as a Terran to finish off what was started in WoL (it would have also given some more weight to Raynor's Media Blitz in that it weakened his position enough to allow Kerrigan to assasinate him) with the Hybrids then coming to fore with Mengsk's death (which would also tie in nicely with that secret mission). We could have Kerrigan angsting about her murder of Mengsk and the nature of inhumanity is not exclusive to physically altered/different species (as she was being the Queen of Blades) but a very human thing in itself. With these dark thoughts and impending danger of the Hybrids, she could then willingly offer herself back to the Zerg because she has nothing to left to give (this time will be different because she is now under no influence from an Overmind and has no chip on her shoulder having displaced her anger/guilt in killing Mengsk - she becomes one with the Zerg as an equal) and then proceed to fight the Hybrids to a standstill for the remaining two-thirds of the campaign until they Hybrids somehow get an advantage leading to the Protoss having to help out in LotV.

I can see that the first quarter/third will still be met with criticism in that it lacks anything remotely to do with Zerg, but I find that it's much better than the HotS we got which was essentially all about Terran affairs with the Zerg being used as a tool/ dressing trying to disguise that fact.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

Ironically, what you said about WoL's ending was similar to what Metzen said back at Blizzcon 2011, that the end scene of Raynor carrying Kerrigan off into the sunrise (because I think it was dawn on Char at that time) was NOT the happy ending everyone was thinking. Hence why the HotS ending, while still better than the BW ending, may not be exactly what we think it is...

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I knew Mengsk wasn't dead!! Ties in with the Mengsk's preponderance for absurd comebacks, doesn't it? (;) to FT).

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Yes, we do. As Zurvan provides exposition regarding Amon's influence all the way back to the creation of the Overmind and the corruption of the Zerg, it's quite clear that Amon has intended to wreck Xel'Nagan creations at least since that time. That could've been the germ for his genocidal plans that came soon after. Given that all of the aforementioned is considered ancient history to what is happening now in Sc2 and that Amon's agents are still following his lead (up to and including resurrecting him to help with their plans), Amon must have been planning contingencies for the destruction of Xel'Naga creations the the whole time in between now and then.

I wonder, if Raynor can call cool his jets and confuse Kerrigan and the Queen of Blades being two different things in 5 years, why can't Amon just "let it go" given that he's had millenia? That'd be an interesting twist, we'd have Amon waking up only to have changed his mind, becomes a good guy and then helps the races fight off the Hybrids and his servants led by Duran (who comes back from the dead).

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Raynor only did it because he felt responsible. Trying to compare this is more like trying to compare his intent to bring Mengsk to justice, which he didn't let go.

Tell me, do you think Amon desired the Zerg as a weapon virtually the moment he arrived on Zerus?

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I knew Mengsk wasn't dead!! Ties in with the Mengsk's preponderance for absurd comebacks, doesn't it? ( to FT).

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You know what I mean....

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

Tell me, do you think Amon desired the Zerg as a weapon virtually the moment he arrived on Zerus?

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Eh, it's a kind of "dkdc" kind of question for me but sure why the hell not? They can say that he wanted to kill the Protoss at first, too but couldn't find a way to do it without looking suss, so he decided to cause the Aeon of Strife and to later subvert the Zerg to kill the Protoss just to make sure to cover his bases. At this point, they can come up with any justification for Amon's actions and it will still be lame and eye-rolly.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Yes!! Like the Dark Templar, it'll seemingly be just a slight difference but with the potential for huge ramifications.

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This would have been far more interesting and made far more sense. One of my major problems with Blizzard across the franchises I've played is their predilection for creating new pasts from which to draw plots, rather than exploring the ramifications of what had already happened.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I've mentioned something to this effect before. Much as I disliked the ending of WoL (it was more to do with it not being earnt throughout WoL's story rather than personal preference), it was the only thing of major import in terms of status quo change in WoL. Before HotS came out, I expressed the difficulty of forming a Zerg-focused continuation if Kerrigan was also to be the main character especially given that WoL had essentially made her a Terran again. As you can see, Kerrigan is the main problem here and it's all due to them feeling obliged to have her as the main character.

Even then, I complained about Sc2 having a potential Terran heavy focus and it turned out to be true. HotS was more about the affairs of Terrans with the Zerg just being a backdrop. This could explain why they probably had to add Zerus to help counter-balance the heavy Terran motivations and elements in the story. I had hoped that if Kerrigan were to be infested again, it'd be best to have it at the end of HotS so we could at least explore the ramifications of her deinfestation throughout the installment... but then this would be at cross-purpose of having the installment supposedly be about Zerg.

I then postulated that if they had to focus on Kerrigan and the Zerg, it would've been better had she done away with Mengsk very early in HotS as a Terran to finish off what was started in WoL (it would have also given some more weight to Raynor's Media Blitz in that it weakened his position enough to allow Kerrigan to assasinate him) with the Hybrids then coming to fore with Mengsk's death (which would also tie in nicely with that secret mission). We could have Kerrigan angsting about her murder of Mengsk and the nature of inhumanity is not exclusive to physically altered/different species (as she was being the Queen of Blades) but a very human thing in itself. With these dark thoughts and impending danger of the Hybrids, she could then willingly offer herself back to the Zerg because she has nothing to left to give (this time will be different because she is now under no influence from an Overmind and has no chip on her shoulder having displaced her anger/guilt in killing Mengsk - she becomes one with the Zerg as an equal) and then proceed to fight the Hybrids to a standstill for the remaining two-thirds of the campaign until they Hybrids somehow get an advantage leading to the Protoss having to help out in LotV.

I can see that the first quarter/third will still be met with criticism in that it lacks anything remotely to do with Zerg, but I find that it's much better than the HotS we got which was essentially all about Terran affairs with the Zerg being used as a tool/ dressing trying to disguise that fact.

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Agreed on all points.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I knew Mengsk wasn't dead!! Ties in with the Mengsk's preponderance for absurd comebacks, doesn't it? (;) to FT).

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Infested Cyborg Mengsk is coming!

If they actually did that, it might veer into so bad it's good territory for me though. That would just be so ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Eh, it's a kind of "dkdc" kind of question for me but sure why the hell not? They can say that he wanted to kill the Protoss at first, too but couldn't find a way to do it without looking suss, so he decided to cause the Aeon of Strife and to later subvert the Zerg to kill the Protoss just to make sure to cover his bases. At this point, they can come up with any justification for Amon's actions and it will still be lame and eye-rolly.

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See if the Zerg still only existed as parasitic insects by the time the Xel'Naga arrived on Zerus, I just don't see it happening. To Amon, the Zerg at that moment would have been unimpressive to him.

He would probably have to wait until the Zerg evolved to the point where they could take over host bodies and steal essence in that aspect, that he'd see the potential for them as a weapon of war. In their insect forms, I don't see why Amon would care.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

One of my major problems with Blizzard across the franchises I've played is their predilection for creating new pasts from which to draw plots, rather than exploring the ramifications of what had already happened.

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So true. I wonder if there's a trope to describe this very thing.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

If they actually did that, it might veer into so bad it's good territory for me though. That would just be so ridiculous.

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You know, I've actually been waiting for something as overt as this to happen in order to validate my nagging suspicion that Sc2 is supposed to be broad comedy. :D

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

See if the Zerg still only existed as parasitic insects by the time the Xel'Naga arrived on Zerus, I just don't see it happening. To Amon, the Zerg at that moment would have been unimpressive to him.

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But Amon is some kind of Xel'Naga or some alien with "great plans in mind". If the Xel'Naga themselves know that procreation requires a long-view in order to be successful, it can't be that hard for Amon to have a long-view plan to disrupt it (which would be comparatively shorter than the cycle of creating the next generation of Xel'Naga and easier to do as well).

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

But Amon is some kind of Xel'Naga or some alien with "great plans in mind". If the Xel'Naga themselves know that procreation requires a long-view in order to be successful, it can't be that hard for Amon to have a long-view plan to disrupt it (which would be comparatively shorter than the cycle of creating the next generation of Xel'Naga and easier to do as well).

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It's hard to say if Amon really had that plan in mind BEFORE he came to Zerus in the first place. As for the rest of the Xel'Naga, it's hard to know how many times the cycle had repeated itself. If it had been long enough, maybe they grew naive on the matter and overlooked the long view plan.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

It's hard to say if Amon really had that plan in mind BEFORE he came to Zerus in the first place.

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So what? He can come up with a plan two minutes, a century after (if not before) discovering the Zerg for all he cares. Such time units would be relatively meaningless to a creature as long-lived as he is. It doesn't change the fact he'd still want the Protoss dead.

More info on the Zerg biology: Zergling, Baneling, Queen, and Roach

We also got a song:


Either you will love it or you will be extremely mad about it.

^ What's there to get mad at? That song was around since BW (type "radio free zerg" as a cheat code).

I'm so ignorant... Anyways, I like it because it's silly and fun. It's just that some persons might hate it for the exact same reasons.

Wait, it's just redirecting us to the unit compendium. The hell?

EDIT Nevermind, I found it. Haha! I just had to keep scrolling. XD


So I've always considered Queens and Broodmothers to be a step backwards from the immortal Cerebrates. But I realized that since the Cerebrates are bound to the Overmind, and their immortality depends on it, Queens provide an obvious solutions. In effect, the Swarm grows less centralized, and individual leaders can be born from the lesser ranks (Queens becoming Broodmothers). Moreover, a lot of evidence has shown that Queens and Broodmothers can and do change over time, both personally and biologically. Moreover, the theory of Zerg A Cells & B Cells creating a cellular Darwinian ecosystem may explain Zagara's and Nafash's instinctive pull towards Char and Kaldir, respectively, as "crucibles for evolution." Finally, I wonder if Queens and Broodmothers have some limited conscious control over the biology of not only their broods but also themselves, with their highly receptive cells absorbing alien traits.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

^ What's there to get mad at? That song was around since BW (type "radio free zerg" as a cheat code).

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This is why the reality of the matter is the Overmind is nothing more than a drug ridden hippie (just a very violent hippie).

I liked that biological lore, but it's probably nothing more than just more data dump from Blackstone

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

Wait, it's just redirecting us to the unit compendium. The hell?

EDIT Nevermind, I found it. Haha! I just had to keep scrolling. XD


So I've always considered Queens and Broodmothers to be a step backwards from the immortal Cerebrates. But I realized that since the Cerebrates are bound to the Overmind, and their immortality depends on it, Queens provide an obvious solutions. In effect, the Swarm grows less centralized, and individual leaders can be born from the lesser ranks (Queens becoming Broodmothers). Moreover, a lot of evidence has shown that Queens and Broodmothers can and do change over time, both personally and biologically. Moreover, the theory of Zerg A Cells & B Cells creating a cellular Darwinian ecosystem may explain Zagara's and Nafash's instinctive pull towards Char and Kaldir, respectively, as "crucibles for evolution." Finally, I wonder if Queens and Broodmothers have some limited conscious control over the biology of not only their broods but also themselves, with their highly receptive cells absorbing alien traits.

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It was one of the interesting particulars of StarCraft II to me that while the Cerebrates had been removed, the subsequent echelon in the Zerg hierarchy had to be buffed to compensate, thus we got Broodmothers from Queens and Overseers from Overlords.

I was a bit disappointed that Overseers had no mention in Heart of the Swarm.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

It was one of the interesting particulars of StarCraft II to me that while the Cerebrates had been removed, the subsequent echelon in the Zerg hierarchy had to be buffed to compensate, thus we got Broodmothers from Queens and Overseers from Overlords.

I was a bit disappointed that Overseers had no mention in Heart of the Swarm.

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I didn't know that Overseers were considered a buff over Overlords in lore-terms. If they were, they would have been explored in HotS.

It makes sense in gameplay terms, but I wouldn't consider turning something that originally had an innate capability into a niche that required further resources and time just to get that capability back superior.

I'm sad that HotS could have been so many things, but in the end the constant shifting of plot removed most of the SP gameplay's richness.

There are so many leftovers for HotS in the editor, way more than for WoL. Unfinished primal models, the nydus network variations, Terran tech, and some Kerrigan models.

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Originally Posted by The_Blade

I'm sad that HotS could have been so many things, but in the end the constant shifting of plot removed most of the SP gameplay's richness.

There are so many leftovers for HotS in the editor, way more than for WoL. Unfinished primal models, the nydus network variations, Terran tech, and some Kerrigan models.

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*Places hand on The_Blade's shoulder* "I feel your loss, too!"

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Originally Posted by The_Blade

I'm sad that HotS could have been so many things, but in the end the constant shifting of plot removed most of the SP gameplay's richness.

There are so many leftovers for HotS in the editor, way more than for WoL. Unfinished primal models, the nydus network variations, Terran tech, and some Kerrigan models.

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The primal Zerg models were a result of laziness for them to use the same ones over and over, instead of actually trying to come up with something different.

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Originally Posted by TheEconomist

Overly complex, convoluted explanation for drone movement? Yes.

Explanation for [insert the many holes in campaign]? No.

Sounds about what I'd expect.

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I feel about the same.

Maybe it's because I am not a native speaker, but some descriptions feel like complicated words were used on purpose: "Their leathery skin developed seven distinct layers with specialized humidity-retention ducts. These prevent moisture loss, while still allowing fluid circulation to keep the creature’s temperature at appropriate levels." I don't know, it sounds strangely convoluted to me.

Now if only they'll actually make the biological explanation for the campaign units in HotS.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

Now if only they'll actually make the biological explanation for the campaign units in HotS.

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I think you mean, "now if only they'd actually make the entire story not crap."