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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I meant that in a way that Sc1 felt a lot more open in terms of what that sequel could entail. BW felt a little more hackneyed/tacked on for the sake of forcing a continuation a story where none was to be naturally continued with to begin with.
If you say so, though it bears noting that the actual plot of Brood War had very little to do with the open ending on StarCraft.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Simple. It's a consistent extension of that initial belief that Mengsk was defeated in BW. One doesn't go into it thinking that their "excuses" to justify a certain belief are actually flimsy and certainly not easily interchangeable to justify an opposing viewpoint to the one they were led to believe in the first place.
So you agree that it has nothing to do with what actually happened in the games, and is merely people frustrated by the fact that they were wrong?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
What new role? He was Emperor of the Dominion in BW just the same as he is in Sc2. And that somehow isn't a retread whilst him being an underdog again is? :confused:
When did Mengsk show up in the role of Emperor of the Dominion in Brood War?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Is it still insightful when Mengsk is clearly wrong (and eventually proven to be) on both counts? ;)
Yes? It has nothing to do with foretelling the future, it's about understanding the people he's dealing with.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Huh, I always thought that Tychus had no real communications (or perhaps wouldn't communicate) with Mengsk throughout WoL because that would be risky to do on a ship full of geniuses - it'd be odd that no-one was able to notice these transmissions throughout the whole time.
Who knows, it wasn't really relevant to the game as released.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
If you say so, though it bears noting that the actual plot of Brood War had very little to do with the open ending on StarCraft.
Which is why I was happy to see the story end there and then at BW because I could see it starting (as evidenced by BW) to slip off the rails from that point.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
So you agree that it has nothing to do with what actually happened in the games, and is merely people frustrated by the fact that they were wrong?
Not exactly. I can only speak for myself, but I would say no to the former and yes to the latter. "What actually happened" in the previous iteration of the game (BW) was what led to the belief in the first place - despite what you have said to the contrary - and people got frustrated when the sequel didn't align with that. It's a matter of being told that you had incorrect expectations in the first place when things seemed to point to that incorrect expectation. It's like the Overmind thing - there was an unstated expectation that it was metaphysically free and then we are told that were wrong to think so at all. Slippery slope begins.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
When did Mengsk show up in the role of Emperor of the Dominion in Brood War?
In all his outings ever since he became one at the end of Rebel Yell.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Yes? It has nothing to do with foretelling the future, it's about understanding the people he's dealing with.
There's not that much to understand about where Kerrigan and Raynor come from when all their troubles are directly due to his initial actions against them. What Mengsk means by not being able to be "saved" is most likely in the context of his egomania and that they are not amenable to his manipulations more than any real understanding of them as being flawed. Mengsk hardly understands Kerrigan's motivations at all: he fails to understand that Kerrigan only helped him in BW was to use him in a revenge plot and then presumes to think Kerrigan will stay her hand when he reveals later to holding Raynor captive after declaring he killed him in the first place in HotS. If Mengsk really understood Raynor's fatal flaw (regarding Kerrigan and his redemption complex), he would've used it successfully against him long ago. For example, if WoL was reimagined to have the artifacts being a fake/ploy to make Raynor sacrifice himself against the Zerg thereby ridding himself of a nuisance and without making Raynor look like a martyr but as the real crazy person he really was, then I would've applauded Mengsk but as the writers reveal, Mengsk had no real plans with Raynor and had no idea of how to handle him (not killing him because of fear of making him a martyr? Please, he is the supposed Master of Propaganda! A trifle as this can be swept under the rug at any time).
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Which is why I was happy to see the story end there and then at BW because I could see it starting (as evidenced by BW) to slip off the rails from that point.
Fair enough.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Not exactly. I can only speak for myself, but I would say no to the former and yes to the latter. "What actually happened" in the previous iteration of the game (BW) was what led to the belief in the first place - despite what you have said to the contrary - and people got frustrated when the sequel didn't align with that. It's a matter of being told that you had incorrect expectations in the first place when things seemed to point to that incorrect expectation. It's like the Overmind thing - there was an unstated expectation that it was metaphysically free and then we are told that were wrong to think so at all. Slippery slope begins.
Except "Brood War" didn't lead to that expectation. His appearance in Omega and that line from the epilogue about planning to rebuild the Dominion set up the expectation that Mengsk will still be in that role in the sequel, which Wings of Liberty lived up to. That's why I said on page 13 that this wasn't about StarCraft II not living up to the promises of Brood War, it's about Brood War not living up to the promises of True Colors. The only way that "Brood War" can leave you with this expectation is if you first pull out the counter-intuitive excuses necessary to explain away Omega and the epilogue, and why should I do that?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
In all his outings ever since he became one at the end of Rebel Yell.
Actually, he gets deposed as Emperor of the Dominion during Emperor's Fall, and his first appearance after Rebel Yell is after the conclusion of Emperor's Fall. His role in Brood War is mostly that of punching bag and angry despoiled despot, ironically the only time he might come off as Emperor of the Dominion is during Omega, but that would require acknowledging that this is still his role by then.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
There's not that much to understand about where Kerrigan and Raynor come from when all their troubles are directly due to his initial actions against them. What Mengsk means by not being able to be "saved" is most likely in the context of his egomania and that they are not amenable to his manipulations more than any real understanding of them as being flawed. Mengsk hardly understands Kerrigan's motivations at all: he fails to understand that Kerrigan only helped him in BW was to use him in a revenge plot and then presumes to think Kerrigan will stay her hand when he reveals later to holding Raynor captive after declaring he killed him in the first place in HotS. If Mengsk really understood Raynor's fatal flaw (regarding Kerrigan and his redemption complex), he would've used it successfully against him long ago. For example, if WoL was reimagined to have the artifacts being a fake/ploy to make Raynor sacrifice himself against the Zerg thereby ridding himself of a nuisance and without making Raynor look like a martyr but as the real crazy person he really was, then I would've applauded Mengsk but as the writers reveal, Mengsk had no real plans with Raynor and had no idea of how to handle him (not killing him because of fear of making him a martyr? Please, he is the supposed Master of Propaganda! A trifle as this can be swept under the rug at any time).
If you say so. I thought it was pretty subtle, and when I first brought it up in my 'thoughts and impressions' some people thought it might not be there at all. Also, bringing up stuff from Brood War and Heart of the Swarm aren't really relevant in how much I liked Mengsk in Wings of Liberty, just sayin' ;).
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Except "Brood War" didn't lead to that expectation.
...to you! To some others, it evidently did.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
His appearance in Omega and that line from the epilogue about planning to rebuild the Dominion set up the expectation that Mengsk will still be in that role in the sequel, which Wings of Liberty lived up to. That's why I said on page 13 that this wasn't about StarCraft II not living up to the promises of Brood War, it's about Brood War not living up to the promises of True Colors. The only way that "Brood War" can leave you with this expectation is if you first pull out the counter-intuitive excuses necessary to explain away Omega and the epilogue, and why should I do that?
I'm not asking you to change your opinion. Just trying to shed some light/make you understand the mindset behind this alternate interpretation. You can understand an opposing viewpoint without having to adopt it.
Just as you have conveniently assumed Mengsk to be untouchable because he appears in the last mission and there is some vague dialogue about planning, it doesn't necessarily mean he can given his terrible track record, his complete lack of competence and that Kerrigan still has a vendetta out on him. With only a slight shift in perspective, one can easily think of those things you mentioned as being counter-intuitive excuses to have Mengsk still around for any potential sequels.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Actually, he gets deposed as Emperor of the Dominion during Emperor's Fall, and his first appearance after Rebel Yell is after the conclusion of Emperor's Fall. His role in Brood War is mostly that of punching bag and angry despoiled despot, ironically the only time he might come off as Emperor of the Dominion is during Omega, but that would require acknowledging that this is still his role by then.
We get an indirect measure of Mengsk's capability as Emperor and wielder of all things good and mighty for Terrans in Sc1 through Duke's outings and how Mengsk is defeated by an enemy that initially operated much in the same way he did in Sc1 by undermining the known establishment at the time. If he really was as smart as he let on to be, his time as Emperor (the Terrans were probably the strongest by Sc1's end despite their setbacks) would'nt have been cut short and so easily in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
If you say so. I thought it was pretty subtle, and when I first brought it up in my 'thoughts and impressions' some people thought it might not be there at all. Also, bringing up stuff from Brood War and Heart of the Swarm aren't really relevant in how much I liked Mengsk in Wings of Liberty, just sayin' ;).
Well, BW and HotS are important in informing us as to what Mengsk, as singular character, is so we can't really ignore them as much as we'd want to. Afterall, I'm very partial to Sc1's version of Mengsk (in isolation from the rest of all the others installments that is) but it's clear that he's an idiot now and perhaps was one from the beginning, albeit a lucky one. :p
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
"but it's clear that he's an idiot now and perhaps was one from the beginning, albeit a lucky one."
I'd say he turned pretty stupid after New Gettysburg, if he really needed to have Kerrigan killed, he should've made it seem like he was trying to rescue her:
KERRIGAN: "This is Kerrigan. We've neutralized the Protoss, but there's a wave of Zerg advancing on this position. We need immediate evac."
MENGSK: "We are sending some of my dropships to your location" (he sends like three relatively empty-ones, they get shot down)
RAYNOR: "Arcturus, those transports sent, got shot down, we've got to send more"
MENGSK: "We can't, Jim, I only have (X) left, i'm sorry but we cannot afford to lose any more." (He actually can't)
RAYNOR: "What? You're not just gonna leave them? "
MENGSK: "If we had more transports I would send them, but we just don't have the numbers, Jim, we have to leave them, if we send the rest of our transports all of us will die" (Kind of a "shaky" possible truth)
RAYNOR: "Then lend me, one, let me go down there myself"
MENGSK: "Very well, but I can't help you if you do this."
RAYNOR: "Yeah, I got it" (Raynor Fails but doesn't rebel from SoK because Mengsk wasn't a prick this time)
That's how it would've went if Arcturus were smart but still an evil bastard.
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"but it's clear that he's an idiot now and perhaps was one from the beginning, albeit a lucky one."
I'd say he turned pretty stupid after New Gettysburg, if he really needed to have Kerrigan killed, he should've made it seem like he was trying to rescue her:
KERRIGAN: "This is Kerrigan. We've neutralized the Protoss, but there's a wave of Zerg advancing on this position. We need immediate evac."
MENGSK: "We are sending some of my dropships to your location" (he sends like three relatively empty-ones, they get shot down)
RAYNOR: "Arcturus, those transports sent, got shot down, we've got to send more"
MENGSK: "We can't, Jim, I only have (X) left, i'm sorry but we cannot afford to lose any more." (He actually can't)
RAYNOR: "What? You're not just gonna leave them? "
MENGSK: "If we had more transports I would send them, but we just don't have the numbers, Jim, we have to leave them, if we send the rest of our transports all of us will die" (Kind of a "shaky" possible truth)
RAYNOR: "Then lend me, one, let me go down there myself"
MENGSK: "Very well, but I can't help you if you do this."
RAYNOR: "Yeah, I got it" (Raynor Fails but doesn't rebel from SoK because Mengsk wasn't a prick this time)
That's how it would've went if Arcturus were smart but still an evil bastard.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
KaiseStratosTygo
I'd say he turned pretty stupid after New Gettysburg, if he really needed to have Kerrigan killed, he should've made it seem like he was trying to rescue her
I wouldn't say stupid but rather "ruthlessly pragmatic". Mengsk in Sc1 was pretty headstrong and straightforward and not really the type to create a song and dance nor lying (that bit where he says the Zerg were a Confederate weapon was probably what he truly felt to be true at the time) for the sake to keep appearances. Just see how he deals with Duke and the ramifications of that. He bullies Duke into submission and then reassures Raynor's concerns by just saying that's he's in control now - and he is.
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Originally Posted by
KaiseStratosTygo
That's how it would've went if Arcturus were smart but still an evil bastard.
Depends on what you'd define as "smart". Losing three transports for no discernible gain wouldn't be very efficient or smart from a pragmatic point-of-view. Also, there was no indication that Mengsk prevented Raynor from taking action if he wanted to.
I think this is partially why Mengsk's outburst (or "reveal") against Raynor in The Hammer Falls is the way it is. On the surface, it's supposed to telegraph that he is an evil prick but it aligns with his particular mindset and the frustration of having to deal with a sanctimonious fool who is only now suddenly struck down by their conscience. From Mengsk's point-of-view, where was Raynor's conscience when he blithely went along consigning the deaths of all those on Antiga? If he could stomach the loss of potential innocents there (and in comparison, unnecessary loss of life), why balk now at the loss of a single soldier who fought valiantly for a purpose that had a clearly defined risk from the beginning? Mengks was not evil for the sake of being evil in Sc1, he had a point!
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
...to you! To some others, it evidently did.
I'm not asking you to change your opinion. Just trying to shed some light/make you understand the mindset behind this alternate interpretation. You can understand an opposing viewpoint without having to adopt it.
You can have whatever opinion you like, but you can accuse a game of having plot holes because it doesn't adhere to your fanfiction. Why would the writers assume that you have "shifted your perspective" in such a way as to interpret the ending as meaning the opposite of what it says?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Just as you have conveniently assumed Mengsk to be untouchable
And you conveniently assumed Mengsk to be dead after True Colors.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
We get an indirect measure of Mengsk's capability as Emperor and wielder of all things good and mighty for Terrans in Sc1 through Duke's outings and how Mengsk is defeated by an enemy that initially operated much in the same way he did in Sc1 by undermining the known establishment at the time. If he really was as smart as he let on to be, his time as Emperor (the Terrans were probably the strongest by Sc1's end despite their setbacks) would'nt have been cut short and so easily in the first place.
So you admit that we never see Mengsk in the role of Emperor of the Dominion?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Well, BW and HotS are important in informing us as to what Mengsk, as singular character, is so we can't really ignore them as much as we'd want to. Afterall, I'm very partial to Sc1's version of Mengsk (in isolation from the rest of all the others installments that is) but it's clear that he's an idiot now and perhaps was one from the beginning, albeit a lucky one. :p
But you just said that you liked Mengsk's portrayal in Rebel Yell.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
You can have whatever opinion you like, but you can accuse a game of having plot holes because it doesn't adhere to your fanfiction. Why would the writers assume that you have "shifted your perspective" in such a way as to interpret the ending as meaning the opposite of what it says?
Can or can't? Not sure which you meant there. Besides, it should be obvious by now that the ending is not as clear-cut/definitive as you would like to make it out as, since the very fact that differing opinions and interpretations have surfaced in spite of this so called well-defined ending.
Also, Blizz has already set it's own precedent in assuming a perspective shift in the way how BW turns out. We were led to believe that the Zerg were crippled/changed irrevocably at Sc1's end but that turned out to be "fanfiction" because the Zerg shrugged it off by being able to take over the home of their most dangerous adversary without the Overmind and then were able to reform the Overmind as if nothing happened to them at all. Then again, in this fashion, I suppose that this does make Mengsk's reappearance in WoL consistent since it conveniently shrugs off his defeats as having no consequence as well. :D
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
And you conveniently assumed Mengsk to be dead after True Colors.
Only weakened to the point of being on the same level as Raynor is now. Much like how I see how Raynor can conveniently keep coming back with an army and still be considered as an insignificant person in the scheme of things, it doesn't mean that I also expect him to be capable of becoming Emperor of the Dominion as well. But we can with Mengsk because... well just because it seems.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
So you admit that we never see Mengsk in the role of Emperor of the Dominion?
Sure, you can have that on technicality - you're way too keen on semantics when all I was saying was that we could extrapolate his entire character from previous direct and indirect measures without having to know he has the word "Emperor" in front of his name to gain anymore insight. As Sc2 goes on to show, even as Emperor there's no new insight into his character beyond him being a shallow mustache-twirler - and we knew that already since BW.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
But you just said that you liked Mengsk's portrayal in Rebel Yell.
I vascillate at times depending on which context we're looking at. I like Mengsk's portrayal, but only in Sc1. That means I can still say I liked (emphasis on the past tense) Mengsk's character when viewing him as a whole across all the iterations. The rampant idiocy in all the later game iterations of Mengsk certainly threaten/makes me cynical/colours my perspective quite a bit.
It's like how it is with Darth Vader in the movies. I liked the character in the originals but I would, at times, despise the character as a whole due to the prequels informing me that he's really only evil because he was a teenaged whining brat and that by extension, the Darth Vader in the originals is really just a whining brat under all that armour too.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I wouldn't say stupid but rather "ruthlessly pragmatic". Mengsk in Sc1 was pretty headstrong and straightforward and not really the type to create a song and dance nor lying (that bit where he says the Zerg were a Confederate weapon was probably what he truly felt to be true at the time) for the sake to keep appearances. Just see how he deals with Duke and the ramifications of that. He bullies Duke into submission and then reassures Raynor's concerns by just saying that's he's in control now - and he is.
Depends on what you'd define as "smart". Losing three transports for no discernible gain wouldn't be very efficient or smart from a pragmatic point-of-view. Also, there was no indication that Mengsk prevented Raynor from taking action if he wanted to.
I think this is partially why Mengsk's outburst (or "reveal") against Raynor in The Hammer Falls is the way it is. On the surface, it's supposed to telegraph that he is an evil prick but it aligns with his particular mindset and the frustration of having to deal with a sanctimonious fool who is only now suddenly struck down by their conscience. From Mengsk's point-of-view, where was Raynor's conscience when he blithely went along consigning the deaths of all those on Antiga? If he could stomach the loss of potential innocents there (and in comparison, unnecessary loss of life), why balk now at the loss of a single soldier who fought valiantly for a purpose that had a clearly defined risk from the beginning? Mengks was not evil for the sake of being evil in Sc1, he had a point!
"Losing three transports for no discernible gain wouldn't be very efficient or smart from a pragmatic point-of-view. Also, there was no indication that Mengsk prevented Raynor from taking action if he wanted to."
Perhaps, but it's far more intelligent than looking like an evil bastard and subsequently using fear to control already enraged subordinates.
Besides, he was already leaving the planet, losing a few transports while bad is nowhere near as bad than losing your support.
"why balk now at the loss of a single soldier who fought valiantly for a purpose that had a clearly defined risk from the beginning? Mengks was not evil for the sake of being evil in Sc1, he had a point!"
He doesn't really, he didn't even make an attempt to rescue them, nor did he even imply that they fought bravely, he just left. "Oh I left behind some paper shreds oh well, it's garbage anyway, such is life..."
It was a callous and unnecessary, (which is a running theme in SC-HotS evidently)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I wouldn't say stupid but rather "ruthlessly pragmatic". Mengsk in Sc1 was pretty headstrong and straightforward and not really the type to create a song and dance nor lying (that bit where he says the Zerg were a Confederate weapon was probably what he truly felt to be true at the time) for the sake to keep appearances. Just see how he deals with Duke and the ramifications of that. He bullies Duke into submission and then reassures Raynor's concerns by just saying that's he's in control now - and he is.
Depends on what you'd define as "smart". Losing three transports for no discernible gain wouldn't be very efficient or smart from a pragmatic point-of-view. Also, there was no indication that Mengsk prevented Raynor from taking action if he wanted to.
I think this is partially why Mengsk's outburst (or "reveal") against Raynor in The Hammer Falls is the way it is. On the surface, it's supposed to telegraph that he is an evil prick but it aligns with his particular mindset and the frustration of having to deal with a sanctimonious fool who is only now suddenly struck down by their conscience. From Mengsk's point-of-view, where was Raynor's conscience when he blithely went along consigning the deaths of all those on Antiga? If he could stomach the loss of potential innocents there (and in comparison, unnecessary loss of life), why balk now at the loss of a single soldier who fought valiantly for a purpose that had a clearly defined risk from the beginning? Mengks was not evil for the sake of being evil in Sc1, he had a point!
"Losing three transports for no discernible gain wouldn't be very efficient or smart from a pragmatic point-of-view. Also, there was no indication that Mengsk prevented Raynor from taking action if he wanted to."
Perhaps, but it's far more intelligent than looking like an evil bastard and subsequently using fear to control already enraged subordinates.
Besides, he was already leaving the planet, losing a few transports while bad is nowhere near as bad than losing your support.
"why balk now at the loss of a single soldier who fought valiantly for a purpose that had a clearly defined risk from the beginning? Mengks was not evil for the sake of being evil in Sc1, he had a point!"
He doesn't really, he didn't even make an attempt to rescue them, nor did he even imply that they fought bravely, he just left. "Oh I left behind some paper shreds oh well, it's garbage anyway, such is life..."
It was a callous and unnecessary, (which is a running theme in SC-HotS evidently)
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
I don't know when they decide to ever fix it Tygo, but you can get rid of the odd double posting by editing the post and deleting the extra wording.
Just letting ya know.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Can or can't? Not sure which you meant there. Besides, it should be obvious by now that the ending is not as clear-cut/definitive as you would like to make it out as, since the very fact that differing opinions and interpretations have surfaced in spite of this so called well-defined ending.
Differing opinions and interpretations of the veracity of the Moon landing have surfaced, doesn't change what happened. Omega shows Mengsk as a major power. The epilogue clearly states that he's planning to rebuild the Dominion. There's no reason to interpret these as meaning the opposite of what they do unless you start with that assumption - and if you started with that assumption, then it's not Wings of Liberty that's at fault for falsifying it, it's Brood War that's at fault for not being even clearer in disabusing you of that notion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Also, Blizz has already set it's own precedent in assuming a perspective shift in the way how BW turns out. We were led to believe that the Zerg were crippled/changed irrevocably at Sc1's end but that turned out to be "fanfiction" because the Zerg shrugged it off by being able to take over the home of their most dangerous adversary without the Overmind and then were able to reform the Overmind as if nothing happened to them at all. Then again, in this fashion, I suppose that this does make Mengsk's reappearance in WoL consistent since it conveniently shrugs off his defeats as having no consequence as well. :D
Just because Blizzard has retconned stuff before doesn't mean that the accusation that Wings of Liberty didn't retcon this has any merit. You know, two wrongs don't make a right and such things.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Sure, you can have that on technicality - you're way too keen on semantics
You're the one trying to equate Mengsk actually acting in the capacity of Emperor of the Dominion with his role as punching bag in Brood War because he technically had the title.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
when all I was saying was that we could extrapolate his entire character from previous direct and indirect measures without having to know he has the word "Emperor" in front of his name to gain anymore insight.
Since Aldaris, Raynor and Tychus are pretty much the only characters in the entire series to undergo any real character development, the fact that you could 'extrapolate his entire character' doesn't sound like much of a criticism, it's just saying that he was consistently written. Certainly not reason enough to remove him.
I don't think you've really thought this notion through. You claim you didn't want Mengsk involved in StarCraft II because of incompetence. Do you think that the Blizzard writers intended to make Mengsk appear so incompetent to you?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
As Sc2 goes on to show, even as Emperor there's no new insight into his character beyond him being a shallow mustache-twirler - and we knew that already since BW.
Sure, give me a quote that tells me how he treated his people in Brood War.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I vascillate at times depending on which context we're looking at. I like Mengsk's portrayal, but only in Sc1.
And you do this despite Brood War and Heart of the Swarm, yet somehow I can't like him in Wings of Liberty despite Brood War and Heart of the Swarm?
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Omega shows special interest groups as a major power.
Fixed.
Actually, that's still wrong. Because 1/3 of a force that lost to a single Cerebrate is not a "major power". Neither does Mengsk's mere presence at the battle make him a major power. His ability to indebt himself by scrounging up a last-minute fleet is indicative of nothing. If Raynor decided to fulfill his promise and showed up at Omega, and the map was divided into four parts instead of three, guess what, that doesn't make Raynor a major power, let alone comparable in scope to whatever Protoss or UED fleet remnants showed up at Omega.
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The epilogue clearly states that he's planning to rebuild the Dominion.
You keep trying to find evidence for your position that doesn't exist (confirmation bias). It also clearly states Artanis and the protoss survivors started rebuilding their "once glorious civilization". Would it have made any sense to ignore their military defeats and have them to revert to the former power of their "once glorious civilization"? No? Well that's great, because it didn't happen to them in SC2. It happened to Mengsk, and that's why we're bitching about that instead.
Nobody here has an issue with him "planning" to rebuild. It's the degree of rebuilding that's ridiculous. You're basically saying that the writers are allowed to get away with whatever they want. He could have shown up in SC2 ruling the known universe. Who cares? It says right the epilogue that he "planned to rebuild". And it's been four years! That explains everything! Just as long as we believe that the other terran factions are docile and ambitionless weaklings who enjoy being ruled and subjugated! :P
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
KaiseStratosTygo
Perhaps, but it's far more intelligent than looking like an evil bastard and subsequently using fear to control already enraged subordinates.
Mengsk's one major skill is manipulating fear in others to get them to do his bidding. When they don't respond to that, then he gets angry. Just look at how Duke was "recruited". He resorts to anger when there is no other recourse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KaiseStratosTygo
Besides, he was already leaving the planet, losing a few transports while bad is nowhere near as bad than losing your support.
Ah, but Mengsk wasn't expecting to lose support by not doing so. I mean really, anyone who has followed Mengsk up to this point would have already made many a severe moral lapse at an earlier point (eg: Antiga) and still they yet continue to follow him despite all of that. Compared to that, what's losing a few soldiers who knew that the mission was likely going to be suicide anyway (they were sandwiched between two alien forces afterall)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KaiseStratosTygo
He doesn't really, he didn't even make an attempt to rescue them, nor did he even imply that they fought bravely, he just left. "Oh I left behind some paper shreds oh well, it's garbage anyway, such is life..."
It was a callous and unnecessary, (which is a running theme in SC-HotS evidently)
Well, if you're willing to read into Mengsk's outburst at Raynor's belligerence against him where he talks about the many sacrifices he had to make, one could argue that he does indeed feel every loss that he's taken at some level but he can't and won't let that get in the way of what needs to be done. It's a very pragmatic view to be sure and is often aligned with being "evil", but really, it's often a very similar trait that more virtuous/good heroes possess as well. Mengsk in Sc1 reminds me of Watchmen's Ozymandias - he is clearly villainous in action but not without proper cause and perceived ultimate benefit for the rest of humanity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Omega shows Mengsk as a major power. The epilogue clearly states that he's planning to rebuild the Dominion. There's no reason to interpret these as meaning the opposite of what they do unless you start with that assumption - and if you started with that assumption, then it's not Wings of Liberty that's at fault for falsifying it, it's Brood War that's at fault for not being even clearer in disabusing you of that notion.
We've covered this before (and again, Gradius has touched on the same things I've already mentioned many pages ago): whether Mengsk is a major power is debatable, planning to rebuild does not mean he necessarily will rebuild or that he even can. Why is this questionable you ask? Because it's something do with having a measure of consequence and acknowledgement of things that happened to Mengsk up to that point. There's verisimilitude in that. Either way, something has gone wrong along the line, evidently. Whether it started happening in BW or WoL doesn't matter since some feel there's an apparent disconnect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Just because Blizzard has retconned stuff before doesn't mean that the accusation that Wings of Liberty didn't retcon this has any merit. You know, two wrongs don't make a right and such things.
I thought we were talking about "assumed perspective shifts" not about actual retcons. :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
You're the one trying to equate Mengsk actually acting in the capacity of Emperor of the Dominion with his role as punching bag in Brood War because he technically had the title.
I was pretty blase about it though. :p
At least my throwaway remark is more reasonable compared to yours where you imply that Mengsk wasn't acting as the Emperor of the Dominion between end of Rebel Yell in Sc1 through to WoL and that that's the reason why we can't judge his capability of him as an Emperor there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Since Aldaris, Raynor and Tychus are pretty much the only characters in the entire series to undergo any real character development, the fact that you could 'extrapolate his entire character' doesn't sound like much of a criticism, it's just saying that he was consistently written. Certainly not reason enough to remove him.
Character stagnation is often plenty of reason enough for writers to kill the character off or shift him away from the lime-light sooner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
You claim you didn't want Mengsk involved in StarCraft II because of incompetence. Do you think that the Blizzard writers intended to make Mengsk appear so incompetent to you?
I have no real idea what Blizz intended or not. All I know is that Mengsk has undergone either character stagnation or character de-evolution. Neither of which I really want to see again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Sure, give me a quote that tells me how he treated his people in Brood War.
No need. I can easily extrapolate how he treats the people around him, no matter how loyal they are, in Sc1 to know well enough that he would show utter disdain for anyone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
And you do this despite Brood War and Heart of the Swarm, yet somehow I can't like him in Wings of Liberty despite Brood War and Heart of the Swarm?
I've never denied you from liking Mengsk in WoL or wished that you hadn't. Like away for all I care! I was just offering my opinion on Mengsk being superfluous and un-interesting character in WoL. Feel free to disagree.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Thank you, Ret, that was getting on my nerves.
@Turalyon
"Mengsk's one major skill is manipulating fear in others to get them to do his bidding. When they don't respond to that, then he gets angry. Just look at how Duke was "recruited". He resorts to anger when there is no other recourse."
I know, and it only works so often, it doesn't work on people that you've already pissed off, though at least not usually.
Besides Duke was more afraid of being ripped apart by the Zerg than, anything else.
"Ah, but Mengsk wasn't expecting to lose support by not doing so. I mean really, anyone who has followed Mengsk up to this point would have already made many a severe moral lapse at an earlier point (eg: Antiga) and still they yet continue to follow him despite all of that. Compared to that, what's losing a few soldiers who knew that the mission was likely going to be suicide anyway (they were sandwiched between two alien forces afterall)?"
But he had to have noticed Raynor and Kerrigan becoming pretty close, you don't just let one die and expect that the other is going to go "well we both committed terrorism oh well" No, he should have known Raynor would be pissed off and given the circumstances should have realized that Raynor believed he was next.
"Well, if you're willing to read into Mengsk's outburst at Raynor's belligerence against him where he talks about the many sacrifices he had to make, one could argue that he does indeed feel every loss that he's taken at some level but he can't and won't let that get in the way of what needs to be done. It's a very pragmatic view to be sure and is often aligned with being "evil", but really, it's often a very similar trait that more virtuous/good heroes possess as well. Mengsk in Sc1 reminds me of Watchmen's Ozymandias - he is clearly villainous in action but not without proper cause and perceived ultimate benefit for the rest of humanity."
But there are less "douchey" ways for him to state that, that he can't let a few deaths get in his way of "protecting" humanity, I have no issue with Pragmatism (it's VERY efficient) it's just I have a problem with how he presented himself, he pretty much turned into Saturday Morning cartoon villain right after New Gettysburg and that could've alienated more than just Raynor and a few hundred "Rangers"
hell, he wouldn't even need to sacrifice ships as I said previously (that would've near guarnteed loyalty but still) he could've just spun it as a "heroic sacrifice' and that there was nothing to be done. him going off the deep end and claiming he will rule "THIS SECTOR!! OR SEE IT BURNT TO ASHES AROUND ME" was a really dumb thing for him to do.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KaiseStratosTygo
I know, and it only works so often, it doesn't work on people that you've already pissed off, though at least not usually.
You have to put yourself in Mengsk's shoes. From his point of view, Raynor is the one being irrational especially after all that they've done together. It sounds warped to you and me, but to Mengsk, he probably genuinely didn't think that there would be anything worth getting angry about since everyone had the moral flexibility to keep continuing after he consigned Antiga to being overrun with Zerg. This in comparison is next to nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KaiseStratosTygo
But he had to have noticed Raynor and Kerrigan becoming pretty close, you don't just let one die and expect that the other is going to go "well we both committed terrorism oh well" No, he should have known Raynor would be pissed off and given the circumstances should have realized that Raynor believed he was next.
I don't mind the idea of Raynor and Kerrigan being "close" but I always figured their relationship to be more on the level of camaraderie amongst soldiers than anything else. Besides, there's a lot of presumptions you're making in regards to Mengsk. "He had to have noticed" and "he should have known" is easy to say in hindsight when we have all the facts laid out in front of us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KaiseStratosTygo
But there are less "douchey" ways for him to state that, that he can't let a few deaths get in his way of "protecting" humanity, I have no issue with Pragmatism (it's VERY efficient) it's just I have a problem with how he presented himself, he pretty much turned into Saturday Morning cartoon villain right after New Gettysburg and that could've alienated more than just Raynor and a few hundred "Rangers"
Mengsk was always kind of "douchey" though - look at how he strings Kerrigan along and how he handles Duke in Rebel Yell. Mengsk's outburst is only in response to Raynor's seemingly sudden (to Mengsk that is) open hostility. If Raynor had concerns, he should have come to Mengsk initially instead of hiding behind and hoping Kerrigan would stand up for herself. Of course, Mengsk probably would've found a way to remove Raynor even earlier if he did so, the fact that Raynor had remained silent was proof to Mengsk that he was silently complicit with what he was doing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KaiseStratosTygo
hell, he wouldn't even need to sacrifice ships as I said previously (that would've near guarnteed loyalty but still) he could've just spun it as a "heroic sacrifice' and that there was nothing to be done. him going off the deep end and claiming he will rule "THIS SECTOR!! OR SEE IT BURNT TO ASHES AROUND ME" was a really dumb thing for him to do.
Mengsk does speak of sacrifices - it's just that Raynor doesn't believe him/has differing values as to what constitutes sacrifice.
As to that infamous line, it's easy to take that out of context. Mengsk sees himself as being the only one capable of steering the Terrans given all the sacrifices and the pragmatic things he's forced himself to do already. If not for him doing these things and taking control, the Terrans would surely be "burnt to ashes" as the only alternative. He may have a point since the Confederates showed that they were ill-equipped to handle the Zerg and Protoss.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Fixed.
Actually, that's still wrong. Because 1/3 of a force that lost to a single Cerebrate is not a "major power". Neither does Mengsk's mere presence at the battle make him a major power. His ability to indebt himself by scrounging up a last-minute fleet is indicative of nothing.
Your fanfiction is indicative of nothing. An endgame fleet is indicative of something. It baffles me that you are operating on a narrative basis in which anyone can "beg" their way into an endgame fleet in a metter of days, but rebuilding an empire first built in months in five years is unthinkable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
If Raynor decided to fulfill his promise and showed up at Omega, and the map was divided into four parts instead of three, guess what, that doesn't make Raynor a major power, let alone comparable in scope to whatever Protoss or UED fleet remnants showed up at Omega.
If the lore describes it as a fourth fleet without feeling any need to distinguish it from the other three? Kinda does actually. Turalyon already pointed out that I was wrong to think otherwise during Eye of the Storm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
You keep trying to find evidence for your position that doesn't exist (confirmation bias).
That would be you. Me, I just read the text. The game says that Mengsk is planning the reconstruction of his Dominion? I understand that all else being equal, Mengsk will rebuild his Dominion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
It also clearly states Artanis and the protoss survivors started rebuilding their "once glorious civilization". Would it have made any sense to ignore their military defeats and have them to revert to the former power of their "once glorious civilization"? No? Well that's great, because it didn't happen to them in SC2. It happened to Mengsk, and that's why we're bitching about that instead.
Mengsk's "glorious civilisation" was built in months and rebuilt in years. If something in there's a problem to you, maybe you should prioritise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Nobody here has an issue with him "planning" to rebuild. It's the degree of rebuilding that's ridiculous. You're basically saying that the writers are allowed to get away with whatever they want. He could have shown up in SC2 ruling the known universe. Who cares? It says right the epilogue that he "planned to rebuild". And it's been four years! That explains everything! Just as long as we believe that the other terran factions are docile and ambitionless weaklings who enjoy being ruled and subjugated! :P
Desperately grasping at obtuse literalism. Yes, the epilogue said he was "planning" the reconstruction of the Terran Dominion. But who could ever have expected him to put his plans into action? What kind of bizarre individual executes his plans? I mean, sure, looking back the clues were there, but the Blizzard writers wove such a cunning and subtle thread that the dazzling reveal that Arcturus Mengsk actually enacted his plan caught us all by complete surprise!
No, wait, you mean that you expected his plans to fail! Because if there's one thing that's important about an epilogue, which exists to bring closure and wrap up loose ends, it's to be deliberately misleading. After all, if they hadn't brought up Mengsk's plans to rebuild the Dominion, how could we possible have known that... Mengsk planned to rebuild the Dominion, information which is entirely pointless because he failed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Why is this questionable you ask? Because it's something do with having a measure of consequence and acknowledgement of things that happened to Mengsk up to that point. There's verisimilitude in that.
Except this happens all the time. You brought up Raynor and the Protoss, but to stay on the topic of Mengsk, how is the Dominion being rebuilt from its ashes in five years worse than the Dominion being built on the ashes of the Confederacy in months? The Confederacy suffered far more damage than the Dominion did, yet Mengsk's Dominion is considered a major threat in Brood War. Where's the acknowledgement of the things that happened to the Koprulu Sector? Where's the verisimilitude in that? And where's the twenty page thread of outrage? Like I said, all I want is consistency. If anyone was this upset about every other time this happens I'd be fine with it, but they're obviously not. Hell, you're this upset about Mengsk because you're being desperately literal about how Mengsk supposedly should have spent the next five years "planning", but everyone was perfectly peachy with Brood War actually retconning the Zerg defeat from StarCraft. Again, where's the acknowledgement of things that happened up until that point? Where's the verisimilitude in that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I thought we were talking about "assumed perspective shifts" not about actual retcons. :D
Yeah, but you're basically saying that the epilogue has been wrong before, so you don't need to take what it said in Brood War into account.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I was pretty blase about it though. :p
At least my throwaway remark is more reasonable compared to yours where you imply that Mengsk wasn't acting as the Emperor of the Dominion between end of Rebel Yell in Sc1 through to WoL and that that's the reason why we can't judge his capability of him as an Emperor there.
I'm not saying you can't judge his capability, I'm saying that using him as Emperor in WIngs of Liberty provides a new angle on his character, whereas returning to rebel status would be pointless stagnation. And Adun knows we had enough pointless stagnation in Heart of the Swarm already. Which is ironic, because your next two comments are:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Character stagnation is often plenty of reason enough for writers to kill the character off or shift him away from the lime-light sooner.
I have no real idea what Blizz intended or not. All I know is that Mengsk has undergone either character stagnation or character de-evolution. Neither of which I really want to see again.
Except it isn't. Mengsk served as the primary antagonist for Heart of the Swarm, which is a massive upgrade on his punching bag status from Brood War. And his relationship with Raynor and Kerrigan is a driving force in the plot of both games, which is again a major upgrade on his role in Brood War. But I'm surprised that you don't know whether Mengsk was intended to be incompetent or not in these games. Other characters certainly talk him up a lot, I'm pretty sure they intended him to be a formidable opponent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
No need. I can easily extrapolate how he treats the people around him, no matter how loyal they are, in Sc1 to know well enough that he would show utter disdain for anyone else.
Does he? Didn't you just tell KaiseStratosTygo that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Mengsk in Sc1 reminds me of Watchmen's Ozymandias - he is clearly villainous in action but not without proper cause and perceived ultimate benefit for the rest of humanity.
And didn't he demonstrate a willingness to save the people of worlds threatened by the Zerg? How do you know he does not merely show disdain for those who stand in his way?
But we're getting away from the point. The argument that a character should be removed because "you can extrapolate how he will act" is not very solid. By that standard, which character isn't pointless? Which character's action do you think I would be unable to extrapolate?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I've never denied you from liking Mengsk in WoL or wished that you hadn't. Like away for all I care! I was just offering my opinion on Mengsk being superfluous and un-interesting character in WoL. Feel free to disagree.
I must have misunderstood then. I wouldn't mind discussing our opinions on Mengsk in Wings of Liberty, but this thread is cluttered enough that I'm mostly trying to stay on topic. Speaking of which, would you mind restating your issue clearly? I know you've already told me, but it's been weeks, so the occasional reminder helps me stay focused ;).
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Your fanfiction is indicative of nothing. An endgame fleet is indicative of something. It baffles me that you are operating on a narrative basis in which anyone can "beg" their way into an endgame fleet in a metter of days, but rebuilding an empire first built in months in five years is unthinkable.
Because they're not the same thing. Scrounging up a fleet on credit is not remotely sustainable in the long term, whereas building an empire is hard work that requires a solid foundation. Cashing in on favors further destroys that foundation, because instead of using those favors later on for empire building, he used them on the short term for a failed venture that left him with nothing. The only kind of man who would risk everything like that is somebody who has nothing else left to lose. So stop comparing the two.
Same concept I've been reiterating all thread, that just because I can buy a Mercedes on credit even while broke, it doesn't make sense to extrapolate that to me having my own car show in 4 years.
Quote:
If the lore describes it as a fourth fleet without feeling any need to distinguish it from the other three? Kinda does actually.
No, it doesn't. If the game felt the need to distinguish that it was larger or smaller, then you could make a claim. If the game says nothing, then you have nothing.
Quote:
That would be you. Me, I just read the text. The game says that Mengsk is planning the reconstruction of his Dominion? I understand that all else being equal, Mengsk will rebuild his Dominion.
Here's the epilogue:
Quote:
With his rag-tag fleet beaten and crippled,
Arcturus Mengsk fled back to Korhal to lick
his wounds and plan the reconstruction of his
Terran Dominion...
Artanis and the Protoss survivors returned
to Shakuras to begin rebuilding their once
glorious civilization...
Two questions:
1) If you "understand that all else being equal, Mengsk will rebuild his Dominion", why not the protoss? Says so right there. Yet in all of SC2 they're so glorious that they can't even bother making a single important appearance. Hell, their High Executor can't even defend one of their planets from a terran rebel group and their one battlecruiser.
2) Which one does the epilogue make it sound like is more likely to rebuild? The protoss survivors who returned to Shakuras? Or the guy who's rag-tag fleet was beaten and crippled, who returned to Korhal to "lick his wounds" and "plan" reconstruction? Based on this epilogue alone, I think it's pretty obvious that it's the former, so maybe if I was feeling super generous I could grant that this could be evidence for the former group's rebuilding, but you want to argue that it's actually the latter? No.
Quote:
Mengsk's "glorious civilisation" was built in months and rebuilt in years. If something in there's a problem to you, maybe you should prioritise.
Stealing leadership from the Confederacy isn't the same as building an empire. That's like taking credit for building all of America upon being elected President.
But after Korhal got wasted by the UED, then the zerg, then the zerg again, that's a different story. Arcturus basically squandered what he inherited from the Confederacy. Explain why anybody in their right mind would side with his failure of a fledgling government at that point over tried and tested factions that stood the test of time like Umoja or the KMC?
Bush became the worst president ever and his approval ratings plummeted because of the Iraq war and recession. But why would that apply to Arcturus? I'm sure everyone would just forgive him for all his failures! Because that sounds really consistent with reality.
Quote:
Desperately grasping at obtuse literalism. Yes, the epilogue said he was "planning" the reconstruction of the Terran Dominion. But who could ever have expected him to put his plans into action? What kind of bizarre individual executes his plans? I mean, sure, looking back the clues were there, but the Blizzard writers wove such a cunning and subtle thread that the dazzling reveal that Arcturus Mengsk actually enacted his plan caught us all by complete surprise!
No, wait, you mean that you expected his plans to fail! Because if there's one thing that's important about an epilogue, which exists to bring closure and wrap up loose ends, it's to be deliberately misleading. After all, if they hadn't brought up Mengsk's plans to rebuild the Dominion, how could we possible have known that... Mengsk planned to rebuild the Dominion, information which is entirely pointless because he failed?
Why hasn't Artanis rebuilt the Protoss' glorious civilization as promised by the infallible epilogue? Because the epilogue listed character motivations, not future facts. It's a double standard. You're trying to twist evidence where none exists to fit your position.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
how is the Dominion being rebuilt from its ashes in five years worse than the Dominion being built on the ashes of the Confederacy in months?
The circumstances and contexts are different. The Sons of Korhal swooped in to fill the gap left by the Confederacy because they were in the best position to at the time since they created that opportunity themselves. When the Dominion fell, they left a void that they couldn't easily fill back themselves because they were not in a good position at the time and that it was not an opportunity they created for themselves. As I asked previously, why couldn't the old remnants of the Confeds have taken back the reign instead of Mengsk/Dominion when the opportunity presented itself? The UED was possibly propping them up since they were assisting Duran's team - could there have been more? Wouldn't they be in a better position to take power again, especially when Mengsk is left with nothing and then goes to squander whatever forces he has left on yet another failed venture?
Besides, the Dominion didn't really feel that strong to me after having taken over the reigns of the Confederacy what with all the Terran worlds still being wasted and what power they did show (through Duke's anemic displays) was quite ineffectual. We only had Mengsk's propaganda speech to go on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
The Confederacy suffered far more damage than the Dominion did, yet Mengsk's Dominion is considered a major threat in Brood War. Where's the acknowledgement of the things that happened to the Koprulu Sector? Where's the verisimilitude in that? And where's the twenty page thread of outrage?
Mengsk, as of the end of Sc1/start of BW, is only considered a major threat to the UED at that specific current time. Considering Mengsk's also the first step in their plan of gaining more traction in the sector, that makes sense that they should focus on him first. It's not my fault that you felt that the UED's focus on Mengsk gave you the impression that the Dominion were really strong to begin with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Hell, you're this upset about Mengsk because you're being desperately literal about how Mengsk supposedly should have spent the next five years "planning", but everyone was perfectly peachy with Brood War actually retconning the Zerg defeat from StarCraft. Again, where's the acknowledgement of things that happened up until that point? Where's the verisimilitude in that?
Eh, I'm not that upset about Mengsk. Just saying that planning doesn't constitute as hard evidence that he can/did do it. Given that Mengsk bends so easily in the face of a light breeze as shown in BW, one can hardly be blamed for not having faith in his actual ability to come back in a significant way. The "Zerg retconning of their defeat in BW" is only readily apparent when the cerebrates appear on Shakuras and being shown to be generally OP from that point on. Before that, Escape from Aiur acknowledges the epilogue of Sc1 fairly well, I think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Yeah, but you're basically saying that the epilogue has been wrong before, so you don't need to take what it said in Brood War into account.
The thing is, it's hard to know what to take into account at all. It also says in the BW epilogue that we don't hear from Raynor since, but we invariably do because he goes straight to attacking Mengsk and then steadily lose throughtout the next 4 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
I'm saying that using him as Emperor in WIngs of Liberty provides a new angle on his character, whereas returning to rebel status would be pointless stagnation.
Raynor is forevermore a rebel and yet that does nothing to crimp his character development according to you. Being of a particular status does not necessarily relegate one's character to pointless stagnation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Mengsk served as the primary antagonist for Heart of the Swarm, which is a massive upgrade on his punching bag status from Brood War. And his relationship with Raynor and Kerrigan is a driving force in the plot of both games, which is again a major upgrade on his role in Brood War. But I'm surprised that you don't know whether Mengsk was intended to be incompetent or not in these games. Other characters certainly talk him up a lot, I'm pretty sure they intended him to be a formidable opponent.
Mengsk was already an antagonist to Raynor and Kerrigan in Rebel Yell and their relationship was the driving force of that plot as well. WoL doesn't really expound much more than what was already laid out then. Mengsk's character is treated pretty much the same way in WoL as it is in BW: he's talked up as being formidable but he really isn't. It all seems pretty samey to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Does he? Didn't you just tell KaiseStratosTygo that:
And didn't he demonstrate a willingness to save the people of worlds threatened by the Zerg? How do you know he does not merely show disdain for those who stand in his way?
Anyone who thinks they know what is best and acts on behalf of everyone is showing disdain to those very people and are doing it just as much (or most definitely, more) for themselves as they are for others. I can make that judgement of both Mengsk and Ozymandias. How they rationalise it in their own heads is another matter. As I said, I can understand how a character reasons without having to sympathise with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
The argument that a character should be removed because "you can extrapolate how he will act" is not very solid. By that standard, which character isn't pointless? Which character's action do you think I would be unable to extrapolate?
Mengsk is predictable as a character now. He revealed himself to be a self-serving a-hole despite his rhetoric and everyone (the audience I mean) seems to have latched onto that. BW goes on to show this selfishness plus the fact that he is now also inept. What more is there really to see?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
I wouldn't mind discussing our opinions on Mengsk in Wings of Liberty, but this thread is cluttered enough that I'm mostly trying to stay on topic. Speaking of which, would you mind restating your issue clearly? I know you've already told me, but it's been weeks, so the occasional reminder helps me stay focused ;).
I think we've drifted off topic a long time ago. I've kind of lost my train of thought in the intervening days too, so I'm not sure which particular issue you want me to clarify...
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
You have to put yourself in Mengsk's shoes. From his point of view, Raynor is the one being irrational especially after all that they've done together. It sounds warped to you and me, but to Mengsk, he probably genuinely didn't think that there would be anything worth getting angry about since everyone had the moral flexibility to keep continuing after he consigned Antiga to being overrun with Zerg. This in comparison is next to nothing.
I don't mind the idea of Raynor and Kerrigan being "close" but I always figured their relationship to be more on the level of camaraderie amongst soldiers than anything else. Besides, there's a lot of presumptions you're making in regards to Mengsk. "He had to have noticed" and "he should have known" is easy to say in hindsight when we have all the facts laid out in front of us.
Mengsk was always kind of "douchey" though - look at how he strings Kerrigan along and how he handles Duke in Rebel Yell. Mengsk's outburst is only in response to Raynor's seemingly sudden (to Mengsk that is) open hostility. If Raynor had concerns, he should have come to Mengsk initially instead of hiding behind and hoping Kerrigan would stand up for herself. Of course, Mengsk probably would've found a way to remove Raynor even earlier if he did so, the fact that Raynor had remained silent was proof to Mengsk that he was silently complicit with what he was doing.
Mengsk does speak of sacrifices - it's just that Raynor doesn't believe him/has differing values as to what constitutes sacrifice.
As to that infamous line, it's easy to take that out of context. Mengsk sees himself as being the only one capable of steering the Terrans given all the sacrifices and the pragmatic things he's forced himself to do already. If not for him doing these things and taking control, the Terrans would surely be "burnt to ashes" as the only alternative. He may have a point since the Confederates showed that they were ill-equipped to handle the Zerg and Protoss.
#1 If I were Mengsk I wouldn't alienate newer members, or at least I would've let him assist Kerrigan and they die together on Tarsonis (or infested whatever)
Point is, there were so many other ways that could've worked in his favor, but he let anger control him.
#2 But it's not hindsight, a good leader should know if his soldiers are fratinizing with eachother, Mengsk would have to pretty neglegent not to notice something there.
#3 That's kind of reaching to be honest, most people when told in an angry tone that "I WILL RULE <--- (that word is REALLY important) THIS SECTOR OR SEE IT BURN TO ASHES AROUND ME! Won't think "He's trying to protect us and if he fails we are doomed" no, they'll think "This dude has gone mad, I'm leaving this joint first chance I get"
Not to mention the "I WILL NOT BE STOPPED, NOT BY YOU, OR THE CONFEDERATES OR THE PROTOSS OR ANYONE!" you have to REALLY trust this due to interpret that as anything but madness.
-
Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KaiseStratosTygo
#1 If I were Mengsk I wouldn't alienate newer members, or at least I would've let him assist Kerrigan and they die together on Tarsonis (or infested whatever)
Point is, there were so many other ways that could've worked in his favor, but he let anger control him.
Yes, one of those things that could've worked is Raynor being Ok with everything. You can say "I would do this or that" as much as you like but only because you have the benefit of hindsight in knowing that Raynor betrayed Mengsk (from Mengsk's point-of-view, it is indeed an open betrayal). At the time, it could've easily been written that Raynor fell in line and decided to make Kerrigan's sacrifice worth it by helping Mengsk form his Dominion..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KaiseStratosTygo
#2 But it's not hindsight, a good leader should know if his soldiers are fratinizing with eachother, Mengsk would have to pretty neglegent not to notice something there.
Mengsk cannot have known at that time that Raynor would someday become his greatest sworn enemy and constant thorn in his side. So yes, it is hindsight to think Mengsk should've known better then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KaiseStratosTygo
#3 That's kind of reaching to be honest, most people when told in an angry tone that "I WILL RULE <--- (that word is REALLY important) THIS SECTOR OR SEE IT BURN TO ASHES AROUND ME! Won't think "He's trying to protect us and if he fails we are doomed" no, they'll think "This dude has gone mad, I'm leaving this joint first chance I get"
Not to mention the "I WILL NOT BE STOPPED, NOT BY YOU, OR THE CONFEDERATES OR THE PROTOSS OR ANYONE!" you have to REALLY trust this due to interpret that as anything but madness.
Of course it's gonna sound like he's a madman to the casual observer, but to the man himself (which was the perspective I was taking), the rant is not without context and certainly not without justification.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Same concept I've been reiterating all thread, that just because I can buy a Mercedes on credit even while broke, it doesn't make sense to extrapolate that to me having my own car show in 4 years.
And the same thing I've reiterated all thread is that asserting something doesn't make it true. You still have no basis for your fanfiction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
No, it doesn't. If the game felt the need to distinguish that it was larger or smaller, then you could make a claim. If the game says nothing, then you have nothing.
You know what? Sure, let's go with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Here's the epilogue:
Two questions:
1) If you "understand that all else being equal, Mengsk will rebuild his Dominion", why not the protoss? Says so right there. Yet in all of SC2 they're so glorious that they can't even bother making a single important appearance. Hell, their High Executor can't even defend one of their planets from a terran rebel group and their one battlecruiser.
So? Until proof of the contrary, I do indeed understand that the Protoss have been rebuilding their once glorious civilisation. In Brood War they were refugees seeking asylum on Shakuras, now they're colonising worlds again, and they've got the Golden Armada thing, doesn't sound like they've been reduced to Sons of Korhal status, which is how apparently you understand it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Stealing leadership from the Confederacy isn't the same as building an empire. That's like taking credit for building all of America upon being elected President.
But after Korhal got wasted by the UED, then the zerg, then the zerg again, that's a different story. Arcturus basically squandered what he inherited from the Confederacy.
So, losing your capitol world entirely, as well as 8 of the other 12 human worlds = a completely intact empire that Mengsk can just steal away in months.
But losing your capitol world (possibly, all we know is that Mengsk's base camp and forces on the planet were destroyed, but let's assume for your benefit that Korhal was destroyed as utterly as Tarsonis) alone = irreparably crippled empire.
What part of losing eight extra worlds improves the situation in your reality?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Explain why anybody in their right mind would side with his failure of a fledgling government at that point over tried and tested factions that stood the test of time like Umoja or the KMC?
The KMC has failed every time it has been tested, and the Umojan Protectorate has never been tested.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
If the game felt the need to [establish Umoja and the KMC as viable power groups], then you could make a claim. If the game says nothing, then you have nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Why hasn't Artanis rebuilt the Protoss' glorious civilization as promised by the infallible epilogue? Because the epilogue listed character motivations, not future facts. It's a double standard. You're trying to twist evidence where none exists to fit your position.
Evidence that Mengsk would rebuild the Dominion: the epilogue says that Mengsk is taking his fleet to plan the reconstruction of the Dominion.
Evidence that Mengsk is crippled and cannot rebuild the Dominion: Gradius wishes really hard.
Yeah, I'm on much firmer ground than you are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Besides, the Dominion didn't really feel that strong to me after having taken over the reigns of the Confederacy what with all the Terran worlds still being wasted and what power they did show (through Duke's anemic displays) was quite ineffectual. We only had Mengsk's propaganda speech to go on.
Mengsk, as of the end of Sc1/start of BW, is only considered a major threat to the UED at that specific current time. Considering Mengsk's also the first step in their plan of gaining more traction in the sector, that makes sense that they should focus on him first. It's not my fault that you felt that the UED's focus on Mengsk gave you the impression that the Dominion were really strong to begin with.
Ok, so you're saying that the Dominion was always irrelevant. And since the UED considered them such a threat, that presumably means that the UED was also irrelevant. So we're left with a setting where nothing is relevant except the Zerg. That would seem to be a problem to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Eh, I'm not that upset about Mengsk. Just saying that planning doesn't constitute as hard evidence that he can/did do it.
Much stronger than the evidence that it is impossible for him to do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Given that Mengsk bends so easily in the face of a light breeze as shown in BW, one can hardly be blamed for not having faith in his actual ability to come back in a significant way. The "Zerg retconning of their defeat in BW" is only readily apparent when the cerebrates appear on Shakuras and being shown to be generally OP from that point on. Before that, Escape from Aiur acknowledges the epilogue of Sc1 fairly well, I think.
I don't. The Protoss are driven from their world by the threat of extinction. That doesn't sound like the victory in the epilogue to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
The thing is, it's hard to know what to take into account at all. It also says in the BW epilogue that we don't hear from Raynor since, but we invariably do because he goes straight to attacking Mengsk and then steadily lose throughtout the next 4 years.
Yes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Raynor is forevermore a rebel and yet that does nothing to crimp his character development according to you. Being of a particular status does not necessarily relegate one's character to pointless stagnation.
Kerrigan keeps getting infested demindcontrolled deinfested reinfested and that does sound like stagnation to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Mengsk was already an antagonist to Raynor and Kerrigan in Rebel Yell
He really wasn't. He doesn't even make his heel turn until after the climax. Rebel Yell was setting up Mengsk as an antagonist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
he's talked up as being formidable but he really isn't. It all seems pretty samey to me.
Why do you think he's talked up as being formidable, if he really isn't?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Anyone who thinks they know what is best and acts on behalf of everyone is showing disdain to those very people and are doing it just as much (or most definitely, more) for themselves as they are for others. I can make that judgement of both Mengsk and Ozymandias. How they rationalise it in their own heads is another matter. As I said, I can understand how a character reasons without having to sympathise with them.
This sounds like you're using a much vaguer answer than you previously were.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Mengsk is predictable as a character now. He revealed himself to be a self-serving a-hole despite his rhetoric and everyone (the audience I mean) seems to have latched onto that. BW goes on to show this selfishness plus the fact that he is now also inept. What more is there really to see?
You're dodging the question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I think we've drifted off topic a long time ago. I've kind of lost my train of thought in the intervening days too, so I'm not sure which particular issue you want me to clarify...
Well, what do you think you're arguing then?
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Ok, so you're saying that the Dominion was always irrelevant. And since the UED considered them such a threat, that presumably means that the UED was also irrelevant. So we're left with a setting where nothing is relevant except the Zerg. That would seem to be a problem to me.
Insofar as the Terrans were hardly relevant in the events that was Sc1 in the first place. Incidentally, didn't you identify this as being a valid criticism of the Terrans in Sc1 in your big review?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Much stronger than the evidence that it is impossible for him to do it.
I've never claimed impossibility of him doing it, just that there's room for varied interpretation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
I don't. The Protoss are driven from their world by the threat of extinction. That doesn't sound like the victory in the epilogue to me.
Read that epilogue: "...their victory cost them all but their lives" and "Aiur was left nothing more than a smouldering ruin". Sure they won, but it was a victory with a severe cost (or, a phrryic one if you prefer) which would mean that Protoss would need some time and place to recover - so, why not Shakuras? "The Zerg Swarms were scattered and broken" doesn't mean the Zerg were rendered completely inert and harmless. Escape from Aiur pays heed to all this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Yes?
Just saying that you what you classify as hard evidence for one particular instance in that epilogue doesn't really hold much weight when in another instance of that same prologue it is not hard evidence as it turns out not to be in WoL (with the example being given was Raynor not being heard from again).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Kerrigan keeps getting infested demindcontrolled deinfested reinfested and that does sound like stagnation to me.
Do people complain about Batman being always "Batman" (or any other given superhero) as the character stagnating? He would've disappeared long ago if it was. It depends on the actual writing in the end.
There's nothing inherently wrong with her being reinfested really since one could make an interesting story about how different she could be this time or even that she is not that much different from the initial infestation. As long as there is an illusion of forward momentum, being brought back to a previous role doesn't necessarily make it bad. Instead, it's a worthy challenge to make it more interesting by trying to give the audience a different perspective. If one is not willing to do that, the character should be dropped. As it is, the main characters in Sc2 are just spinning their wheels and moving nowhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
He really wasn't. He doesn't even make his heel turn until after the climax. Rebel Yell was setting up Mengsk as an antagonist.
Just because it isn't revealed until the end that he's eeevillll, doesn't mean that he was not actively working against Kerrigan and Raynor's interests the whole time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Why do you think he's talked up as being formidable, if he really isn't?
Do I really need to explain this? It's the same reason he's a Master Propagandist when he really isn't. It's all just superficial informed attributes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
This sounds like you're using a much vaguer answer than you previously were.
What don't you understand? Those two characters are all about taking it upon themselves to do things for what they think is best for everyone. The core belief of one who thinks that way means that they do not really trust "everyone" (or anyone) to be able to help themselves - hence disdain for everyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
You're dodging the question.
No, I'm clarifying my answer. We can guess how Mengsk in WoL will act based on what we of him in SC1 and BW. The way he does actually turn out in Sc2 goes on to prove it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Well, what do you think you're arguing then?
I have no clue what specific area you want my position on. You said this Mengsk stuff in WoL is off-topic, so I didn't know whether you wanted me to talk about that or the stuff in BW.
All I can really say is that it's not that unreasonable for people to think that Mengsk's position in WoL as being somewhat surprising.
-
Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
So? Until proof of the contrary, I do indeed understand that the Protoss have been rebuilding their once glorious civilisation. In Brood War they were refugees seeking asylum on Shakuras, now they're colonising worlds again, and they've got the Golden Armada thing, doesn't sound like they've been reduced to Sons of Korhal status, which is how apparently you understand it.
In Brood War they destroyed a big chunk of the zerg swarm on Shakuras. In Brood War, they went around doing stuff (Artanis at Omega, Zeratul on Char, etc). You say that they're colonizing planets as if that's some massive achievement. Well no crap, that's the logical conclusion of 4 years of recovery, unlike Arcturus becoming the greatest terran power in the sector after getting so irrevocably decimated in BW.
In SC2, the protoss did absolutely nothing of value militarily. If the Golden Armada meant anything, it'd have been deployed at literally any time. After the swarm was fractured and broken would have been great!
Quote:
doesn't sound like they've been reduced to Sons of Korhal status, which is how apparently you understand it.
Because:
1) The epilogue doesn't make them sound like complete losers the way Arcturus does.
2) Their string of defeats isn't as large as Arcturus's. The protoss are more powerful that Arcturus.
3) The main protoss body is unified. There is nobody else to fill the vacuum, and they'd have improved no matter what. Arcturus has other terran factions to contend with, as well as other people that should have usurped him.
Quote:
So, losing your capitol world entirely, as well as 8 of the other 12 human worlds = a completely intact empire that Mengsk can just steal away in months.
When did I say completely intact? I said it's an empire he inherited from someone else. It's more than he had when it was the Sons of Korhal.
Quote:
But losing your capitol world (possibly, all we know is that Mengsk's base camp and forces on the planet were destroyed, but let's assume for your benefit that Korhal was destroyed as utterly as Tarsonis) alone = irreparably crippled empire.
The UED also controlled all his colonies. I never said his empire was irreparably crippled, I said he's in a terrible position.
Quote:
What part of losing eight extra worlds improves the situation in your reality?
What kind of backwards logic is this supposed to be? Did you ever hear me say the Dominion is on par with the Confederacy?
Quote:
The KMC has failed every time it has been tested, and the Umojan Protectorate has never been tested.
The KMC repelled a zerg invasion in BW. And given Mengsk's vast string of military defeats, they're in a way better position. From the POV of the average citizen, I'd rather side with a faction that hasn't been attacked by zerg either (Umoja).
Quote:
Evidence that Mengsk would rebuild the Dominion: the epilogue says that Mengsk is taking his fleet to plan the reconstruction of the Dominion.
Vague character motivations listed in an epilogue isn't evidence of anything, no matter how much you wish it to be. The protoss have improved because it's been 4 years, but Artanis hasn't rebuilt the protoss's glorious civilization in SC2 as promised.
Quote:
Evidence that Mengsk is crippled and cannot rebuild the Dominion: Gradius wishes really hard.
Wrong again: http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthrea...l=1#post182585
Quote:
Yeah, I'm on much firmer ground than you are.
Still not sure you actually believe that. Here's your "evidence" again:
Quote:
With his rag-tag fleet beaten and crippled,
Arcturus Mengsk fled back to Korhal to lick
his wounds and plan the reconstruction of his
Terran Dominion...
Artanis and the Protoss survivors returned
to Shakuras to begin rebuilding their once
glorious civilization...
The epilogue made it a point to note how screwed over Mengsk is and how hard rebuilding will be for him. This is consistent with him being removed from power by Kerrigan on Korhal, and then using his last reserves at Omega. The epilogue implies that he will use whatever little political clout he has left to try to make something of himself again. SC shows a consistent downgrade in his power. The fact that you think it's ok for him to domineer over all other terran factions in SC2, invade and capture Char, etc. is mind-boggling. This is why there were so many complaints of "it's almost like BW never happened" when WoL first came out.
Look at the epilogue again and ask yourself which of the two are going to be a major power in the sector, because it sure as hell doesn't sound like the first guy! Yet remind me what the protoss accomplished in SC2 militarily again? Oh, that's right nothing. When you finally make the connection between that and the fact that we're complaining about Mengsk and not the protoss, you'll understand our argument a bit better.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Insofar as the Terrans were hardly relevant in the events that was Sc1 in the first place. Incidentally, didn't you identify this as being a valid criticism of the Terrans in Sc1 in your big review?
That was narrative relevance, not military relevance. You'll recall that at the time I wrote that review, I thought that Humanity was being set up as the stronger faction following the Protoss and Zerg mutual devastation at the end of StarCraft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I've never claimed impossibility of him doing it, just that there's room for varied interpretation.
Except StarCraft II makes it quite clear what happened. So unless there's reason to believe that this was a retcon, I don't see what we're arguing here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Read that epilogue: "...their victory cost them all but their lives" and "Aiur was left nothing more than a smouldering ruin". Sure they won, but it was a victory with a severe cost (or, a phrryic one if you prefer) which would mean that Protoss would need some time and place to recover - so, why not Shakuras? "The Zerg Swarms were scattered and broken" doesn't mean the Zerg were rendered completely inert and harmless. Escape from Aiur pays heed to all this.
Perhaps you should read it. "...their victory cost them all but their lives" means that they had two things: they were victorious and they were alive. Brood War states that they must abandon Aiur - the very thing which they spent the entirety of StarCraft fighting for - or die, in other words they do not have victory, and trying to achieve it will mean that they will not be alive. How is that consistent with the epilogue?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Just saying that you what you classify as hard evidence for one particular instance in that epilogue doesn't really hold much weight when in another instance of that same prologue it is not hard evidence as it turns out not to be in WoL (with the example being given was Raynor not being heard from again).
You're demonstrating that Raynor's presence is a retcon. I'm not contesting this. It has nothing to do with Mengsk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Just because it isn't revealed until the end that he's eeevillll, doesn't mean that he was not actively working against Kerrigan and Raynor's interests the whole time.
He was clearly working against Raynor's interests when he freed him from that Confederate prison ship, yes. You're fishing here. Mengsk was not the primary antagonist of Rebel Yell, and you know this full well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Do I really need to explain this? It's the same reason he's a Master Propagandist when he really isn't. It's all just superficial informed attributes.
You're the one who said you had no idea whether the writers intended for Mengsk to appear incompetent, and I'm just helping you find an answer. Why would the writers provide informed attributes about Mengsk's competence if they intended to make him appear incompetent?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
What don't you understand? Those two characters are all about taking it upon themselves to do things for what they think is best for everyone. The core belief of one who thinks that way means that they do not really trust "everyone" (or anyone) to be able to help themselves - hence disdain for everyone.
'Cause you're citing a vague and general character trait and claiming that because he's going to be written consistently he's now not worth writing about. Earlier you mentioned Batman as someone whom you do not believe to be such a stagnant character. But I can easily say "I can extrapolate how Batman will react to whatever situation because he has a core belief which is opposition to crime". Does that mean that Batman is stagnant to you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
No, I'm clarifying my answer. We can guess how Mengsk in WoL will act based on what we of him in SC1 and BW. The way he does actually turn out in Sc2 goes on to prove it.
If that's your clarified answer, I can't even begin to imagine what you think my question was. For your information, here it was:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
The argument that a character should be removed because "you can extrapolate how he will act" is not very solid. By that standard, which character isn't pointless? Which character's action do you think I would be unable to extrapolate?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I have no clue what specific area you want my position on. You said this Mengsk stuff in WoL is off-topic, so I didn't know whether you wanted me to talk about that or the stuff in BW.
All I can really say is that it's not that unreasonable for people to think that Mengsk's position in WoL as being somewhat surprising.
You're entitled to be as surprised as you like. Why would you feel the need to tell me this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
In Brood War they destroyed a big chunk of the zerg swarm on Shakuras. In Brood War, they went around doing stuff (Artanis at Omega, Zeratul on Char, etc). You say that they're colonizing planets as if that's some massive achievement. Well no crap, that's the logical conclusion of 4 years of recovery, unlike Arcturus becoming the greatest terran power in the sector after getting so irrevocably decimated in BW.
A bunch of refugees transitioning to colonial expansion within four years = perfectly logical
The strongest Terran power in the Koprulu Sector still being the strongest Terran power in the Koprulu Sector four years later = unthinkable
I am unconvinced by your position.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
When did I say completely intact? I said it's an empire he inherited from someone else. It's more than he had when it was the Sons of Korhal.
The UED also controlled all his colonies. I never said his empire was irreparably crippled, I said he's in a terrible position.
What kind of backwards logic is this supposed to be? Did you ever hear me say the Dominion is on par with the Confederacy?
If Mengsk was able to build the Dominion from the much more devastated Confederacy in months, it makes perfect sense that he can in years rebuild his own Dominion from the comparatively minor damage suffered through Brood War.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
The KMC repelled a zerg invasion in BW.
I'd laugh but I fear that you might be trying to be serious here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
And given Mengsk's vast string of military defeats, they're in a way better position.
False. Otherwise provide evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
From the POV of the average citizen, I'd rather side with a faction that hasn't been attacked by zerg either (Umoja).
From the PoV of the average citizen, I'd rather side with a faction that has beaten back the Zerg and given us four years of peace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Vague character motivations listed in an epilogue isn't evidence of anything, no matter how much you wish it to be. The protoss have improved because it's been 4 years, but Artanis hasn't rebuilt the protoss's glorious civilization in SC2 as promised.
Yes, all I have is a clear and simple quote from the game itself. While you have...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
... baseless speculation. Truly I am amazed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Still not sure you actually believe that. Here's your "evidence" again:
The epilogue made it a point to note how screwed over Mengsk is and how hard rebuilding will be for him.
It also makes a point of establishing that he is going to rebuild the Dominion, which is the actual relevant part. You know what the epilogue doesn't establish? Any Terran capable of competing with him. "If the game felt the need to [establish Umoja or the KMC as viable power groups], then you could make a claim. If the game says nothing, then you have nothing."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Look at the epilogue again and ask yourself which of the two are going to be a major power in the sector, because it sure as hell doesn't sound like the first guy! Yet remind me what the protoss accomplished in SC2 militarily again? Oh, that's right nothing. When you finally make the connection between that and the fact that we're complaining about Mengsk and not the protoss, you'll understand our argument a bit better.
"A plot revolving around Terrans featured the Terran powers, not the Protoss! This is somehow shocking to me!" Yeah, the Protoss didn't appear at all. "If the game felt the need to [establish the power of the Protoss], then you could make a claim. If the game says nothing, then you have nothing."
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Quote:
I'd laugh but I fear that you might be trying to be serious here.
So claiming that Moria beat back the zerg is a huge joke, but when the Dominion gets decimated by the zerg multiple times they've "beaten back the Zerg and given us four years of peace" according to you. Awesome.
Love the double standards there. Good to know that we can make genuine progress. :P
Quote:
A bunch of refugees transitioning to colonial expansion within four years = perfectly logical
They're not refugees. The dark templar have a civilization on Shakuras.
Quote:
The strongest Terran power in the Koprulu Sector still being the strongest Terran power in the Koprulu Sector four years later = unthinkable
Ah, you mean the guy who kept getting trashed repeatedly and who's begging special interest groups to give him a fleet at the end of the game? That guy? :p
Quote:
"If the game felt the need to [establish Umoja or the KMC as viable power groups], then you could make a claim. If the game says nothing, then you have nothing."
It did establish them as viable power groups. They rivaled the Confederacy. Read the manual.
Are you seriously giving me crap for pointing out that a faction's mere presence on the map doesn't mean anything about their power or size? You think that's the same as argument from ignorance? -_-
Quote:
It also makes a point of establishing that he is going to rebuild the Dominion, which is the actual relevant part.
It says nothing about him rebuilding the Dominion. It just says he has plans. Not the same thing. And remember: If the game felt the need to [establish that he was capable of rebuilding the Dominion], then you could make a claim. If the game says nothing, then you have nothing."
See, I can throw back quotes like a child too!
Quote:
... baseless speculation. Truly I am amazed.
It's cool that I'm the only one providing mountains of evidence, while you get to handwaive it all away as "baseless speculation". In the meantime, a vague plan to rebuild in the epilogue is good enough to justify going from begging for a fleet to lording over the terran sector. But not for the protoss. Only for Mengsk, because that happens to fit your position.
Quote:
"A plot revolving around Terrans featured the Terran powers, not the Protoss! This is somehow shocking to me!" Yeah, the Protoss didn't appear at all. "If the game felt the need to [establish the power of the Protoss], then you could make a claim. If the game says nothing, then you have nothing."
LOL. So what were they doing? In both the zerg and protoss campaigns they did nothing. There is nobody else to fight by process of elimination. In the meantime, the Dominion invaded and captured Char. But you believe that the protoss rebuilt their glorious civilization just as the epilogue promised? You believe they returned to full strength? ...to do nothing?
Quote:
"If the game felt the need to [establish the power of the Protoss], then you could make a claim. If the game says nothing, then you have nothing."
It did establish the power of the protoss. Their high executor lost in battle to a terran rebel group.
It's cool that we've reached the part of the debate where you resort to argument from ignorance, and I resort to giving out all the evidence that proves that I'm right yet gets ignored.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
The back and forth between you guys (Grad and FT) is amazing. :p
The thing that's sticking out at the moment for me is FT's known disapproval of the Protoss being weak. If one is so inclined to disregard any actual consequence or impact from Mengsk's military defeats, one wonders why one would be upset about the Protoss being treated as weak when you can just as easily disregard the actual consequence or impact of their military defeats, too. In that sense, the Protoss aren't really weakening but just hitting more roadblocks. They're facing constant adversity but getting through it by still existing and improving (they have to be improving in order to keep on existing). There's constant interest due to the amount of conflict they experience. What's there to be so upset about?
I can only guess it's because, at some fundamental level, there is a feeling of consequence that you feel the Protoss are actually being hard done by. It's the reason that explains the current issue with Mengsk. It's also my main concern about going into LotV in that I cannot see how the Protoss can, realistically (in context of what that universe has shown us so far) defeat a threat that is even greater than the Zerg (after either only winning at great cost if not losing outright all the time) without contrivance.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
That was narrative relevance, not military relevance. You'll recall that at the time I wrote that review, I thought that Humanity was being set up as the stronger faction following the Protoss and Zerg mutual devastation at the end of StarCraft.
What we see later after Rebel Yell does not really inspire one to think the Terrans/Dominion would be very strong especially given Duke's terrible outings against the Zerg and Protoss. Besides, does it really matter whether we're talking narrative or military relevance? The Terrans were always treated as the weakest. It's perhaps why BW felt it needed another Terran presence in the UED to tackle the inherently weak K-sector Terran presence and to boost their profile. That the UED could beat the K-sector Terran presence is evidence on it's own that the K-Sector Terrans are both narratively and militarily insignificant.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Except StarCraft II makes it quite clear what happened. So unless there's reason to believe that this was a retcon, I don't see what we're arguing here.
It's about acknowledging that something in BW had some sort of consequence with it's passage. As I've said before, one can actually skip BW and go straight into Sc2 from Sc1 without being the wiser. Even though, I may dislike elements in a story, I would like some acknowledgement of things that happened before. Such that while I've railed against WoL in the past, I was strongly against cancelling out Kerrigan's deinfestation quickly as HotS did because it was the one and only thing of significant import that happened. It's the same with the sudden Zerg OP out of nowhere in BW after what was supposed to be a huge blow to the Zerg.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Perhaps you should read it. "...their victory cost them all but their lives" means that they had two things: they were victorious and they were alive. Brood War states that they must abandon Aiur - the very thing which they spent the entirety of StarCraft fighting for - or die, in other words they do not have victory, and trying to achieve it will mean that they will not be alive. How is that consistent with the epilogue?
The victory was at a cost! You can't ignore that part!
As to the "must abandon Aiur" part, it's really only at Zeratul's behest. He even says he "suggests" going to a place of "solace" (a place for comfort and consolation at a time of distress and sadness), not that they must run forever more and never look back. Not only that, Aldaris is confident that they can make their stand as they are. It could easily be taken that Zeratul intended to regroup at a staging area (Shakuras) before striking back out again - which would make sense with the epilogue given that it's hard to make a counterstrike when all you have are disparate lives and nothing but ruins to help.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
You're demonstrating that Raynor's presence is a retcon. I'm not contesting this. It has nothing to do with Mengsk.
No, I'm establishing that what you are relying on as evidence is flimsy. How can you take one part of the same epilogue as being golden and not something else? How do you really know which part of it is solid and which parts are not?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
He was clearly working against Raynor's interests when he freed him from that Confederate prison ship, yes. You're fishing here. Mengsk was not the primary antagonist of Rebel Yell, and you know this full well.
Fine, fine, not an antagonist in the traditional definition and probably not the best word to describe his narrative role. That he has to resort to manipulation to get people to do what he wants suggests that people won't help him if he were more open about why is doing what he is doing. In that sense, Mengsk is working against one's moral best interests.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
You're the one who said you had no idea whether the writers intended for Mengsk to appear incompetent, and I'm just helping you find an answer. Why would the writers provide informed attributes about Mengsk's competence if they intended to make him appear incompetent?
For narrative convenience/currency in making him seem like a worthy villain to fight - when he really isn't. You're right in that I don't know whether they intended it or not, it's the just the plain fact that he is incompetent regardless of intention.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
'Cause you're citing a vague and general character trait and claiming that because he's going to be written consistently he's now not worth writing about.
The flanderisation of what was once a vague, innocuous and general character trait is often reason enough to not continue with a character.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Earlier you mentioned Batman as someone whom you do not believe to be such a stagnant character. But I can easily say "I can extrapolate how Batman will react to whatever situation because he has a core belief which is opposition to crime". Does that mean that Batman is stagnant to you?
I didn't say Batman was not a stagnant character (he actually rather is). I said other people believe him not to be, which is why he's still around. As to the why, I can only assume that this is because of the depth of Batman's roster of villains. Each one brings out a different characteristic in Batman and with multiple permutations which helps bolster the general one-noteness of the character if it were observed wholly on its own.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
If that's your clarified answer, I can't even begin to imagine what you think my question was. For your information, here it was:
The argument that a character should be removed because "you can extrapolate how he will act" is not very solid. By that standard, which character isn't pointless? Which character's action do you think I would be unable to extrapolate?
I was clarifying what I meant by extrapolation. But if you insist on an appropriate answer to your question, all I can honestly say is that the only characters that aren't pointless at this late stage of the story are the new ones (like Valerian) because all the old main Sc characters in Sc2 (Raynor, Kerrigan, Mengsk and Zeratul) are quite thoroughly uninteresting and spinning on their heels. Their presence seems like the writers are just capitalising on the familiarity of them as a brand name and the broad representations of their previous characterisations.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
You're entitled to be as surprised as you like. Why would you feel the need to tell me this?
I don't know. This being a forum, I'd thought that people would generally be interested in other people's opinions? I must be naive to think that then? :p
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
" but only because you have the benefit of hindsight in knowing that Raynor betrayed Mengsk"
That's not hindsight, that's foresight, if I were a military commander I wouldn't twist my moustache and tell my subordinates that essentially "I will rule the world!!"
If Mengsk didn't know that a blatant maniacal power grab would piss people off, then he he has Alzheimers, seeing as how he used this AGAINST the Confederacy
"So yes, it is hindsight to think Mengsk should've known better then."
He doesn't need to have hindsight to know that pissing people off creates rebels, like... um.. Mengsk himself for instance, a logical leader (which Mengsk was more or less up until New Gettysburg) would try to prevent history from repeating itself.
", but to the man himself (which was the perspective I was taking), the rant is not without context and certainly not without justification."
Then Mengsk is clearly insane because to anyone else but the most hardened zealous SoK member, that would sound like ramblings of a crazy tyrant.
"The KMC repelled a zerg invasion in BW. And given Mengsk's vast string of military defeats, they're in a way better position. From the POV of the average citizen, I'd rather side with a faction that hasn't been attacked by zerg either (Umoja)."
Wait.. they beat back the Zerg? I thought Kerrigan just left with the resources she gathered.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
KaiseStratosTygo
That's not hindsight, that's foresight, if I were a military commander I wouldn't twist my moustache and tell my subordinates that essentially "I will rule the world!!"
Once again, it's easy for you to say because you know how everything turns out. It's easy for us to make judgements on events in past history and say I would've done this or that better to prevent such a thing. This is a classic example of hindsight bias.
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Originally Posted by
KaiseStratosTygo
If Mengsk didn't know that a blatant maniacal power grab would piss people off, then he he has Alzheimers, seeing as how he used this AGAINST the Confederacy
He doesn't need to have hindsight to know that pissing people off creates rebels, like... um.. Mengsk himself for instance, a logical leader (which Mengsk was more or less up until New Gettysburg) would try to prevent history from repeating itself.
Of course Mengsk knows this. He also thinks he has everything under control and can get rid of Raynor easily at that particular point in time, if not at some later time. He did do this to Kerrigan after all.
Besides, why would a "blatant maniacal power grab" be the final tipping point after having experienced and accepted a blatant maniacal murder of millions on two separate worlds (Antiga and Tarsonis) prior to this? If Kerrigan had been rescued, there is the likelihood that Raynor may have still stayed at Mengsk's side and helped him become Emperor of the Dominion... Where was Raynor's sense of outrage then? Can you even begin to understand (not sympathise mind you) where Mengsk's frustration could be coming from when Raynor seemingly opens hostilities out of nowhere?
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Originally Posted by
KaiseStratosTygo
Then Mengsk is clearly insane because to anyone else but the most hardened zealous SoK member, that would sound like ramblings of a crazy tyrant.
If you want to equate sociopathy with insanity, feel free to make that value judgement, I won't stop or judge you.
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Originally Posted by
KaiseStratosTygo
Wait.. they beat back the Zerg? I thought Kerrigan just left with the resources she gathered.
I think Grad is equating the loss the KMC suffered as being insignificant (and as somewhat of a victory in a roundabout sort of way) in comparison/similarity to FT's claim that Mengsk's previous and numerous defeats being also somewhat insignificant to account for his appearance in Omega.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
So claiming that Moria beat back the zerg is a huge joke, but when the Dominion gets decimated by the zerg multiple times they've "beaten back the Zerg and given us four years of peace" according to you. Awesome.
That depends. Are you claiming that Kerrigan going to Moria, plundering them for all they're worth and infesting their people to be shipped off-world to fight the UED is an actual Kel-Morian Combine accomplishment, or that it's something the KMC could spin as a victory? Because if the first, then yes, it is a huge joke. If the latter, then you have to acknowledge that Mengsk fighting the Zerg over Char leading to four years of peace is also something that can be spun as a victory, and a much greater one at that, which you have consistently refused to do. So which is it?
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
They're not refugees. The dark templar have a civilization on Shakuras.
Artanis isn't a Dark Templar. But if you're talking about the Dark Templar now, then yes, I fully believe that the Dark Templar have rebuilt their once glorious civilisation over the last four years. It's barely been damaged.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Ah, you mean the guy who kept getting trashed repeatedly and who's begging special interest groups to give him a fleet at the end of the game? That guy? :p
"The strongest Terran power in the Koprulu Sector." You're trying to compare Mengsk to some nebulous ideal instead of what I actually brought up because you know full well there is never any indication at all that there is another Terran power capable of challenging him.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
It did establish them as viable power groups. They rivaled the Confederacy. Read the manual.
Yes, let's read, why not? "In the decade since the end of the Guild Wars, the oppressive Terran Confederacy has stood unchallenged in its supremacy over colonial space." VERY FIRST THING ESTABLISHED IN THE CAMPAIGN.
"Unchallenged in its supremacy". Clearly, the Kel-Morian Combine - the challenge the Confederacy actually crushed to obtain that supremacy - doesn't rival the Confederacy. Now let's look at the manual. "It is rumored that the Combine actually supplies the Confederacy with fuels and resources. So great is their political influence, the Confederate forces have been banned from prosecuting the Combine for any potentially criminal action." Saying that the Confederacy is willing to turn a blind eye to Kel-Morian crimes and that they are therefore of equivalent power is like saying that Saudi Arabia rivals the United States of America in power - evidently untrue, and my quote confirms that. Furthermore, there's no evidence that whatever political influence the Kel-Morian Combine held over the Confederacy was retained within the Dominion. So no, the game does not establish them as a faction capable of challenging Mengsk for supremacy over the Terrans of the Koprulu Sector.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
It says nothing about him rebuilding the Dominion. It just says he has plans. Not the same thing. And remember: If the game felt the need to [establish that he was capable of rebuilding the Dominion], then you could make a claim. If the game says nothing, then you have nothing."
Ah, but StarCraft II does establish that Mengsk rebuilt the Dominion, so I do have something. That's your problem. You're the one trying to demonstrate that there's a contradiction here, you're the one who needs to establish that Mengsk couldn't rebuild the Dominion. And remember, "If the game felt the need to [establish that he was incapable of rebuilding the Dominion], then you could make a claim. If the game says nothing, then you have nothing."
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
See, I can throw back quotes like a child too!
It's your quote, if you didn't want to be held up to that standard, you should have thought about it then. Now you know why I just let you go with it.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
It's cool that I'm the only one providing mountains of evidence
Pretty sure that's me. The game is pretty clear about what Mengsk's going to be doing after Brood War. Meanwhile, you just speculate that because Mengsk has suffered some (comparatively minor!) defeats he has to lose his power. Just Mengsk, mind you, not the Kel-Morian Combine or the Confederacy or the Zerg or the Protoss, just Mengsk. Because that happens to fit your position. You have not even established half the things in your next sentence. Mengsk never begged for a fleet. The Protoss did rebuild. You just don't want to admit positions I've made quite clear.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
LOL. So what were they doing? In both the zerg and protoss campaigns they did nothing.
Not being mentioned proves that a faction is powerless? Congratulations! You've just proved that the Umojan Protectorate and Kel-Morian Combine were powerless! What were they doing during StarCraft and Brood War?
But of course, I don't believe that. Someone not being mentioned doesn't prove that they are weak or strong. The games do mention the Protoss' strength though, with the Golden Armada. Which is more than those two Terran factions ever get.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
It did establish the power of the protoss. Their high executor lost in battle to a terran rebel group.
What, like when Executor Tassadar lost to the Sons of Korhal? You're right, that does establish the power of the Protoss... and that poweris equivalent to the power they wielded at the beginning of StarCraft, so thank you for demonstrating that I was correct. The Protoss have rebuilt their once glorious civilisation, just like Mengsk rebuilt his Dominion.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
It's cool that we've reached the part of the debate where you resort to argument from ignorance,
Did you just say that quoting you is an argument from ignorance? Because that was hilarious. I would not have had the audacity to say something like that :D.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
The thing that's sticking out at the moment for me is FT's known disapproval of the Protoss being weak. If one is so inclined to disregard any actual consequence or impact from Mengsk's military defeats, one wonders why one would be upset about the Protoss being treated as weak when you can just as easily disregard the actual consequence or impact of their military defeats, too. In that sense, the Protoss aren't really weakening but just hitting more roadblocks. They're facing constant adversity but getting through it by still existing and improving (they have to be improving in order to keep on existing). There's constant interest due to the amount of conflict they experience. What's there to be so upset about?
Number of reasons. It doesn't follow from anything - the Protoss were almost annihilated in the battle for Aiur, but so were the Zerg, and the Terrans lost 9/13 worlds to the Zerg in the war's opening salvo. Yet in Brood War they're suddenly so ridiculously weak? Why? When did they suddenly get so much weaker? It's not because there is a feeling of consequence, it's because there isn't. Also, being so weak limits the ways they can interact with other factions. Their lives also perpetually depend on magical plot devices. It ruins the core symmetry of the Zerg and Protoss that I very much liked in StarCraft. It ruins their characterisation as this technologically omnipotent menace. Don't know where you get your 'constant interest' and 'conflict' from, they've been nearly entirely absent from the last three games, and The Stand was a glorified fetch quest. The only conflict there came from Kerrigan (a Zerg Terran) mind controlling one of their leaders, because it's not like the Protoss are supposed to be amazing powerful psychics or anything. It's been pretty awful. Honestly, I have no idea what this has to do with the subject at hand.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
What we see later after Rebel Yell does not really inspire one to think the Terrans/Dominion would be very strong especially given Duke's terrible outings against the Zerg and Protoss.
Funny that you say that, since I saw the complete opposite. Duke's Alpha Squadron was considered a threat to the Zerg Swarm that was entirely congregated on Char. Even despite his defeat, he held out on Char for the rest of the game, still strong enough to engage the Fleet of the Executor, and ultimately returned to the Dominion alive. Compare that with what happened to half the Dominion fleet plus Raynor's Raiders (who also were on Char in Overmind, though they needed Tassadar's help to survive) in Wings of Liberty, at a time where Gradius insists that the Terran Dominion is actually overpowered, and you'll see that Duke did phenomenally well on Char.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Besides, does it really matter whether we're talking narrative or military relevance? The Terrans were always treated as the weakest. It's perhaps why BW felt it needed another Terran presence in the UED to tackle the inherently weak K-sector Terran presence and to boost their profile. That the UED could beat the K-sector Terran presence is evidence on it's own that the K-Sector Terrans are both narratively and militarily insignificant.
Ah, but we've discussed this before. The UED actually had to steal and recruit from the Koprulu Terran forces, I suspect that they might actually have been weaker than the Terran Dominion.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
It's about acknowledging that something in BW had some sort of consequence with it's passage. As I've said before, one can actually skip BW and go straight into Sc2 from Sc1 without being the wiser.
Ah, but that's Brood War's own fault. That game undoes everything except the evacuation of Aiur and Dark Origins (both of which are retained in StarCraft II). It's Brood War that makes certain that nothing important happens during The Stand. It's Brood War that invents the Psi Disrupter then destroys it, overthrows Mengsk as leader of the Dominion then reinstates him, births a second Overmind and then kills it, invents the United Earth Directorate and then destroys everything they had in the Koprulu Sector. Mengsk's supposed crippling is just another one of those elements - if they wanted him to be crippled, they wouldn't have brought him out in force, gloating and threatening for the big finale. Wings of Liberty is not responsible for Brood War not having any consequences, that's Brood War's own fault. I agree with your complaints, but they've been misdirected. This is in contrast to something like Raynor's anger at Kerrigan. This is definitely something Wings of Liberty changed. And while I might not have a problem with it, I can understand people who do. But that's not the case with Mengsk. The end of the game clearly establishes that he's still top dog among the Koprulu Terrans.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
The victory was at a cost! You can't ignore that part!
I didn't. The cost was "all but their lives". And I explained clearly how Brood War denied that. This is exactly what I just wrote.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
As to the "must abandon Aiur" part, it's really only at Zeratul's behest. He even says he "suggests" going to a place of "solace" (a place for comfort and consolation at a time of distress and sadness), not that they must run forever more and never look back. Not only that, Aldaris is confident that they can make their stand as they are. It could easily be taken that Zeratul intended to regroup at a staging area (Shakuras) before striking back out again - which would make sense with the epilogue given that it's hard to make a counterstrike when all you have are disparate lives and nothing but ruins to help.
Except a fraction of inconsequential Zerg threatened to wipe them all out (plus the Dark Templar), so it's obvious that no, they didn't have a chance on Aiur.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
No, I'm establishing that what you are relying on as evidence is flimsy. How can you take one part of the same epilogue as being golden and not something else? How do you really know which part of it is solid and which parts are not?
Because you can't discuss StarCraft if you consider StarCraaft an invalid source of knowledge about StarCraft. You're basically going full narrative solipsism here. You're building an argument on the foundation that it is impossible to know anything about StarCraft. That's madness.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Fine, fine, not an antagonist in the traditional definition and probably not the best word to describe his narrative role. That he has to resort to manipulation to get people to do what he wants suggests that people won't help him if he were more open about why is doing what he is doing. In that sense, Mengsk is working against one's moral best interests.
And using him as the major antagonist in Heart of the Swarm was a new role, and a new use for his character.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
For narrative convenience/currency in making him seem like a worthy villain to fight
That makes no sense, why would they make him look incompetent if they wanted to make him look like a worthy villain to fight?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
The flanderisation of what was once a vague, innocuous and general character trait is often reason enough to not continue with a character.
Flanderisation need not continue. Characters can be rehabilitated. And I would say that Mengsk in Wings of Liberty is a much better character than the one from Brood War.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I was clarifying what I meant by extrapolation. But if you insist on an appropriate answer to your question, all I can honestly say is that the only characters that aren't pointless at this late stage of the story are the new ones (like Valerian) because all the old main Sc characters in Sc2 (Raynor, Kerrigan, Mengsk and Zeratul) are quite thoroughly uninteresting and spinning on their heels. Their presence seems like the writers are just capitalising on the familiarity of them as a brand name and the broad representations of their previous characterisations.
Innnnnnnnnnnnteresting.
You're partially wrong and partially right. Mostly, the problem is that characters which aren't changing aren't necessarily bad. Roles need to be filled, and characters who have those established stories behind them are inherently more interesting than some random new guy. If Mengsk hadn't been the primary antagonist in Heart of the Swarm, it would have been some random nobody. If you're honestly telling me that you would rather have had Executor Nyon than Arcturus Mengsk, then you and I may never understand each other. That's especially a problem with villains mind you. It's no wonder that there was never a Confederate character in StarCraft, the notable antagonists - Mengsk, the Overmind, Kerrigan, Aldaris, Duran, DuGalle, they were all fleshed out because you had the opportunity to fight on their side (or they on yours) for a while, which is I suspect the main reason Amon is so laughable. Now, I actually do think that we got to explore the character of Raynor in a few new facets in Wings of Liberty, which is part of the reason I actually do like that game, but I agree that newer characters have fresh stories to tell. That's why I wish Tychus had been the PoV character for Wings of Liberty. That's why I wish Raynor and Kerrigan would have basically retired from main character position after that game, and someone else - I don't know, Zagara maybe? - had been the main character in Heart of the Swarm. But that doesn't mean that you remove those old characters, because they still fulfill useful roles. You still need to have The Man to rebel against, and why remove Arcturus if you're just going to put someone else in his place? I mean, that's what annoys me about the death of Aldaris - that guy still had an important role to fill in the Protoss stories, even though his development as a character was basically complete after The Fall. Raynor or Kerrigan can still be a valuable NPC in Horner's or whoever's fight against the oppressive Terran Dominion, that old veteran who's seen it all and used to know the Emperor personally. They just don't need to be the focus anymore.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I don't know. This being a forum, I'd thought that people would generally be interested in other people's opinions? I must be naive to think that then? :p
Fine, fine. I'm kinda in the middle of a twenty page argument, so I had expectations :p. Especially since you don't seem to agree with anything I say :p.
So... I dunno, do you want my opinion on what Stratos is talking about? Do you want me to rant about how Protoss have been horribly misused? Talk about my fanfiction sequel to StarCraft?
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
It doesn't follow from anything - the Protoss were almost annihilated in the battle for Aiur, but so were the Zerg, and the Terrans lost 9/13 worlds to the Zerg in the war's opening salvo.
Correction: Only the Overmind was annihilated, the remainder of the Zerg forces were still milling about. They didn't disappear the instant the Overmind died. Or are you now suggesting that it should've been like this? ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Yet in Brood War they're suddenly so ridiculously weak? Why? When did they suddenly get so much weaker? It's not because there is a feeling of consequence, it's because there isn't. Also, being so weak limits the ways they can interact with other factions. Their lives also perpetually depend on magical plot devices. It ruins the core symmetry of the Zerg and Protoss that I very much liked in StarCraft. It ruins their characterisation as this technologically omnipotent menace. Don't know where you get your 'constant interest' and 'conflict' from, they've been nearly entirely absent from the last three games, and The Stand was a glorified fetch quest. The only conflict there came from Kerrigan (a Zerg Terran) mind controlling one of their leaders, because it's not like the Protoss are supposed to be amazing powerful psychics or anything. It's been pretty awful. Honestly, I have no idea what this has to do with the subject at hand.
But using your similar defense for Mengsk, the Protoss are not weak. It's only in your mind because they made the comeback at the end of Omega and will kill off Amon in LotV - which suggests they were not ridiculously weak at all and so there's nothing to worry about. They can keep coming back for more at any time, just like Mengsk can. They're just being constantly tested and are not really "limited" at all. This "reliance on plot device" shouldn't be an issue since you've already accepted the absurd comeback (in itself a plot device) of Mengsk as being Ok. As you've corrected me before - just because we don't see them, we can't assume they're weak... so they must be still strong then. How am I wrong with my interpretation of Mengsk being weak but your interpretation of the Protoss being weak is not?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Funny that you say that, since I saw the complete opposite. Duke's Alpha Squadron was considered a threat to the Zerg Swarm that was entirely congregated on Char. Even despite his defeat, he held out on Char for the rest of the game, still strong enough to engage the Fleet of the Executor, and ultimately returned to the Dominion alive. Compare that with what happened to half the Dominion fleet plus Raynor's Raiders (who also were on Char in Overmind, though they needed Tassadar's help to survive) in Wings of Liberty, at a time where Gradius insists that the Terran Dominion is actually overpowered, and you'll see that Duke did phenomenally well on Char.
If you want to define strength in terms of being able to survive being killed in almost every encounter (I say almost because he ended up dying afterall!), then sure, Duke is incredibly strong. :p
As to the comparison with half of the Dominion's fleet and Raynor's Raiders, didn't you handwave that as the fleet not having been inflicted any serious harm (what with all these BC's in orbit and how they dominate Char in HotS before Kerrigan retakes it)? I'm seriously getting confused...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Ah, but we've discussed this before. The UED actually had to steal and recruit from the Koprulu Terran forces, I suspect that they might actually have been weaker than the Terran Dominion.
I remember that discussion. It was an interesting notion that I pondered as a hypothetical but it is hardly transparent/obvious for the casual fan. I'm pretty sure that the general consensus would be that the UED were stronger than the Dominion from the get-go, even though it may be wrong. If the UED were so weak, why do they show up in Omega when they lost Korhal (if we are to assume that Korhal represents the overall supply chain the UED tapped into to use the K-sector Terran supplies) and their remaining forces in the defence of the neo-Overmind on Char? What makes them think they can win in Omega when they were beaten twice despite having the advantage in those previous two instances?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Ah, but that's Brood War's own fault...... I agree with your complaints, but they've been misdirected.
This is in contrast to something like Raynor's anger at Kerrigan. This is definitely something Wings of Liberty changed. And while I might not have a problem with it, I can understand people who do. But that's not the case with Mengsk. The end of the game clearly establishes that he's still top dog among the Koprulu Terrans.
This would be right if not for the fact that some people do think that BW had plenty of consequence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
I didn't. The cost was "all but their lives". And I explained clearly how Brood War denied that. This is exactly what I just wrote.
Not really. We only saw them run away/tactically retreat, not that they'd necessarily die should they have stayed. There's only the fear of that (them all dying if staying) not the actuality.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Except a fraction of inconsequential Zerg threatened to wipe them all out (plus the Dark Templar), so it's obvious that no, they didn't have a chance on Aiur.
Ah, but that's when the retcon begins in full force. Before we know that the Zerg on Shakuras are capable of this, we don't really know at that time whether they could stand a chance or not on Aiur.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Because you can't discuss StarCraft if you consider StarCraaft an invalid source of knowledge about StarCraft. You're basically going full narrative solipsism here. You're building an argument on the foundation that it is impossible to know anything about StarCraft. That's madness.
I'm just denying the weight of what you deem as solid evidence is all. You use the vagary of "planning" as solid evidence for something that is an assumption (that he can put this into effect), whereas on the other hand we have solid evidence from the same source of someone not appearing ever again but then actually does later on. Your "evidence" is therefore hardly convincing.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
And using him as the major antagonist in Heart of the Swarm was a new role, and a new use for his character.
Arguably, this was already done in WoL... which revealed nothing new about him. And yet we have him again in HotS doing the exact same thing....
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
That makes no sense, why would they make him look incompetent if they wanted to make him look like a worthy villain to fight?
I'm glad you feel incredulous... The answer to this is simple, it's just plain bad writing.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Flanderisation need not continue. Characters can be rehabilitated. And I would say that Mengsk in Wings of Liberty is a much better character than the one from Brood War.
It was beating a dead horse and HotS pretty much confirmed this. If his character could've been resuscitated by Blizz (even despite all the stuff that Mengsk has become, I still believe he could be salvaged with some good writing) they wouldn't have killed him off out of mercy from the butchery that his character was going through.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Mostly, the problem is that characters which aren't changing aren't necessarily bad.
I fully agree... except Sc2 is a clear example of it being equivocally bad. :D
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Roles need to be filled, and characters who have those established stories behind them are inherently more interesting than some random new guy. If Mengsk hadn't been the primary antagonist in Heart of the Swarm, it would have been some random nobody.
Well, at the time of Sc1, was not every character we came across "some random new guy"? And yet we were still able to love and (love to hate in some instances) these "nobodies".
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
If you're honestly telling me that you would rather have had Executor Nyon than Arcturus Mengsk, then you and I may never understand each other.
I prefer Nyon to Mengsk (just kidding). :p
I seriously drew a blank for a moment when I read "Nyon" and then laughed to myself as I remembered.
Nyon is one of the worst type of cypher "character" I've ever seen. He's just another example of the poor writing in Sc2 and stands in stark contrast to what Blizz was able to achieve in Sc1 with, what was originally, blank slate characters.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
But that doesn't mean that you remove those old characters, because they still fulfill useful roles. You still need to have The Man to rebel against, and why remove Arcturus if you're just going to put someone else in his place?
Who says we need to have The Man to rebel against theme at all (or again as the case maybe)? Afterall, WoL's story doesn't seem to know which theme it wants to convey given that the premise was supposed to be about Raynor's fight against Mengsk but then relegates it to a side-event that has no significance and ends on a completely different tangent altogether.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Fine, fine. I'm kinda in the middle of a twenty page argument, so I had expectations :p. Especially since you don't seem to agree with anything I say :p.
I'm more than capable of agreeing as I'm probably more likely inclined to try and take your perspective compared to the others. Just think of my disagreements to your assertions as a test of your position.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
So... I dunno, do you want my opinion on what Stratos is talking about? Do you want me to rant about how Protoss have been horribly misused? Talk about my fanfiction sequel to StarCraft?
Go ahead with either. It's a forum afterall. :D
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
The back and forth between you guys (Grad and FT) is amazing. :p
I for one find it... futile. Gradius made most of its points in his 2012 editorial, Fanatic Templar didn't change anyone's mind nor its own, and if that didn't happen during two months (!) of discussion on this subject, it's not going to happen in three, four or six.
This is the rethorical equivalent of trench warfare, on the same topics and with essentially the same arguments as when I felt replying was a waste of time, weeks ago.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
Telenil
I for one find it... futile. Gradius made most of its points in his 2012 editorial, Fanatic Templar didn't change anyone's mind nor its own, and if that didn't happen during two months (!) of discussion on this subject, it's not going to happen in three, four or six.
This is the rethorical equivalent of trench warfare, on the same topics and with essentially the same arguments as when I felt replying was a waste of time, weeks ago.
It's only futile if you expect one outcome to rule over all. I think the main reason why we're at loggerheads is that each of the positions require fundamentally different mindsets/perspective that not all of us can grasp. I do think that FT's arguments have merit and he has made some really good points that are worth considering. I've found the exchanges pretty interesting if that's any consolation. :D
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Correction: Only the Overmind was annihilated, the remainder of the Zerg forces were still milling about. They didn't disappear the instant the Overmind died. Or are you now suggesting that it should've been like this? ;)
Enough Zerg died that they weren't making noise nor raising dust anymore.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
But using your similar defense for Mengsk, the Protoss are not weak. It's only in your mind because they made the comeback at the end of Omega and will kill off Amon in LotV - which suggests they were not ridiculously weak at all and so there's nothing to worry about. They can keep coming back for more at any time, just like Mengsk can. They're just being constantly tested and are not really "limited" at all. This "reliance on plot device" shouldn't be an issue since you've already accepted the absurd comeback (in itself a plot device) of Mengsk as being Ok. As you've corrected me before - just because we don't see them, we can't assume they're weak... so they must be still strong then. How am I wrong with my interpretation of Mengsk being weak but your interpretation of the Protoss being weak is not?
Uh, no. The Protoss pulling a new fleet out of nowhere for Omega demonstrates a capacity for inexplicable recovery, it doesn't demonstrate that they're powerful, furthermore the Protoss started out stronger, so being reduced to Mengsk levels of power is certainly not demonstrative of them being powerful. Them not appearing means you can't assume they're weak, I have no idea why you'd then assume they're strong. Them not appearing means you can't make assumptions about them, one way or the other.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
If you want to define strength in terms of being able to survive being killed in almost every encounter (I say almost because he ended up dying afterall!), then sure, Duke is incredibly strong. :p
As to the comparison with half of the Dominion's fleet and Raynor's Raiders, didn't you handwave that as the fleet not having been inflicted any serious harm (what with all these BC's in orbit and how they dominate Char in HotS before Kerrigan retakes it)? I'm seriously getting confused...
Did I? That doesn't sound like something I would do. Battlecruisers in orbit does demonstrate that there were still significant forces that survived the invasion, but it says nothing about their losses. Furthermore, Duke's forces were on the planet itself, not hanging about in orbit. Seems like Duke did quite well.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I remember that discussion. It was an interesting notion that I pondered as a hypothetical but it is hardly transparent/obvious for the casual fan. I'm pretty sure that the general consensus would be that the UED were stronger than the Dominion from the get-go, even though it may be wrong. If the UED were so weak, why do they show up in Omega when they lost Korhal (if we are to assume that Korhal represents the overall supply chain the UED tapped into to use the K-sector Terran supplies) and their remaining forces in the defence of the neo-Overmind on Char? What makes them think they can win in Omega when they were beaten twice despite having the advantage in those previous two instances?
Sure, but for the casual fan, I have no idea why anyone would even suspect that Mengsk is no longer in command of the largest Terran force in the Sector. No replacement has been provided.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
This would be right if not for the fact that some people do think that BW had plenty of consequence.
Like what? And if so, why can people go from StarCraft to Wings of Liberty and miss almost nothing?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Not really. We only saw them run away/tactically retreat, not that they'd necessarily die should they have stayed. There's only the fear of that (them all dying if staying) not the actuality.
Ah, but that's when the retcon begins in full force. Before we know that the Zerg on Shakuras are capable of this, we don't really know at that time whether they could stand a chance or not on Aiur.
Are you really trying to argue that if you only play a single Brood War mission and assume that the characters in it are mistaken or lying, and that all provided context is greatly overblown, then there is no retcon? What is the purpose of such an argument?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I'm just denying the weight of what you deem as solid evidence is all.
If you think StarCraft is not solid enough to be evidence of StarCraft, what would you accept? I mean, if we're going to adopt that kind of solipsism, there's still no contradiction, because you can't believe that there is anything different between Brood War and Wings of Liberty.
Incidentally, it's the one arguing the contradiction that needs to demonstrate it. I'm just providing the counter-evidence because it's there.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I'm glad you feel incredulous... The answer to this is simple, it's just plain bad writing.
That's not an answer. You don't write a cat you intend to describe as black with the word white because you're 'a bad writer'. The accusation that the Blizzard writers don't know what words mean has no basis at all.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I fully agree... except Sc2 is a clear example of it being equivocally bad. :D
Disagree. I've told you before I liked his character in Wings of Liberty.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Well, at the time of Sc1, was not every character we came across "some random new guy"? And yet we were still able to love and (love to hate in some instances) these "nobodies".
No, the leader of the Confederacy in SC1 was literally a nobody, no quotation marks. They didn't exist because they didn't have the means to flesh them out.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I seriously drew a blank for a moment when I read "Nyon" and then laughed to myself as I remembered.
Nyon is one of the worst type of cypher "character" I've ever seen. He's just another example of the poor writing in Sc2 and stands in stark contrast to what Blizz was able to achieve in Sc1 with, what was originally, blank slate characters.
That's incorrect. Blizzard never introduced anyone to a Nyon role in SC1.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Who says we need to have The Man to rebel against theme at all (or again as the case maybe)? Afterall, WoL's story doesn't seem to know which theme it wants to convey given that the premise was supposed to be about Raynor's fight against Mengsk but then relegates it to a side-event that has no significance and ends on a completely different tangent altogether.
Now you're just talking about writing an entirely different story. Incidentally, Wings of Liberty was not about the fight against Mengsk, any more than Rebel Yell was about surviving the invasion of the Zerg. Those are just things that happen during the story, and help shape it.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Go ahead with either. It's a forum afterall. :D
Eh, I'll save it for later. I've got a fair deal to write about already.
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Originally Posted by
Telenil
I for one find it... futile. Gradius made most of its points in his 2012 editorial, Fanatic Templar didn't change anyone's mind nor its own, and if that didn't happen during two months (!) of discussion on this subject, it's not going to happen in three, four or six.
This is the rethorical equivalent of trench warfare, on the same topics and with essentially the same arguments as when I felt replying was a waste of time, weeks ago.
Actually, a lot of arguments have changed, I should know. When they stop doing that, then I too will drop this conversation as being futile, but for now this is precisely the reason I come to a StarCraft message board. Arguing about StarCraft with other fans of StarCraft.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I think the main reason why we're at loggerheads is that each of the positions require fundamentally different mindsets/perspective that not all of us can grasp.
Exactly. And when the typical argument is "you have no basis for your fanfiction", I don't think we're going to square the circle. I, for one, discuss the lore to find new ideas to think about, not to repeat variations of the same arguments for, literally, months.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Enough Zerg died that they weren't making noise nor raising dust anymore.
I didn't get that impression during the last two missions in The Fall. It seemed to me that all they did was push a wedge into the Zerg forces to allow an assault on the Overmind - not that they slaughtered Zerg wholesale to get to that point. It seemed a lot more dire to me.
Would you deem the Garm Brood being similarly "broken and scattered" and therefore incapable of "making noise/raising dust" anymore when Zasz died? Daggoth didn't tend to think so and he, being Zerg, should know something about that.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Uh, no. The Protoss pulling a new fleet out of nowhere for Omega demonstrates a capacity for inexplicable recovery, it doesn't demonstrate that they're powerful, furthermore the Protoss started out stronger, so being reduced to Mengsk levels of power is certainly not demonstrative of them being powerful. Them not appearing means you can't assume they're weak, I have no idea why you'd then assume they're strong. Them not appearing means you can't make assumptions about them, one way or the other.
We've reckoned already that we don't really know the power levels/size/capability of each fleet so we can't really say that the Protoss have been reduced to Mengsk power levels as well. So basically, with all of what you've said above, you've really just backed me up. You shouldn't have any reason to think the Protoss are weakened at all.
Mengsk/The Protoss lost his/their homeworld and it was no big deal to him/them in the end (as Omega shows and what LotV will show us). Mengsk/The Protoss than suffered some more setbacks when he/they thought that they were relatively safe (Mengsk having Korhal back/The Protoss having Shakuras to fall back on) and it was also no big deal to him/them in the end (as Omega shows and what LotV will show us).
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Battlecruisers in orbit does demonstrate that there were still significant forces that survived the invasion, but it says nothing about their losses.
My bad - got confused with the other half of the Dominion fleet. Even still, can one not infer that if a significant forces survived the initial invasion all the way to the end, than things weren't as dire as we initially/previously thought? Given that most opinions here rely a lot on the recency effect as being adequate justification for just about anything that comes after it (eg: we last saw Mengsk being able to "recover" at BW so that means he can keep doing it indefinitely but then again, we also last see him being a poor leader and losing again), someone could easily use that as evidence to support the notion that Valerian's & Raynor's fleet weren't that bad off by the end of WoL. HotS further supports this because Warfield is able to establish a presence and keep the Zerg at bay until the superweapon that is Kerrigan makes her way back there and that even when those Dominion forces were wiped out there, Mengsk still had enough forces to resist Kerrigan when she eventually came knocking at Korhal, too.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Furthermore, Duke's forces were on the planet itself, not hanging about in orbit. Seems like Duke did quite well.
It's all relative really. Could we say that the Protoss (Tassdar and Zeratul's band that is) were also as strong/doing "quite well" on Char at around the same time? They managed to hang around on Char just as long as Duke did. One gets the hint that they weren't because they then needed to be rescued later by Aldaris and the Executor. Are we sure Duke also didn't need rescuing again like he did on Antiga?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Sure, but for the casual fan, I have no idea why anyone would even suspect that Mengsk is no longer in command of the largest Terran force in the Sector. No replacement has been provided.
Because the largest Terran force at that time got beaten in the end? As to the excuse that it has to be Mengsk because there was no other obvious replacement, that seems a bit reductive to me since it makes that universe much smaller than what it initially seemed like. Having "no obvious replacement" would normally be an impetus to create something new, different and compelling, not the opposite. To me, whether it's Mengsk, someone else or even no one else to take up the mantle of main Terran superpower in the end actually doesn't bother me as long as there as an illusion that all variables had been taken into account and not that the author was rail-roading/manipulating things to move a certain way.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Like what? And if so, why can people go from StarCraft to Wings of Liberty and miss almost nothing?
Not speaking of the other people who don't think BW had any consequence or that can go into WoL without knowing anything beforehand, but the people who do think and/or think BW should have some sort of consequence.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Are you really trying to argue that if you only play a single Brood War mission and assume that the characters in it are mistaken or lying, and that all provided context is greatly overblown, then there is no retcon? What is the purpose of such an argument?
I'm not denying the retcon... it just happened later is all. The first mission that we were given is but one choice of many that could've easily followed on from the epilogue in Sc1 and still make sense. Besides, can we truly blame the Protoss for not having the perspective of the omniscient knowledge from which the epilogue stems? Can't they be cautious in their victory at all?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
If you think StarCraft is not solid enough to be evidence of StarCraft, what would you accept? I mean, if we're going to adopt that kind of solipsism, there's still no contradiction, because you can't believe that there is anything different between Brood War and Wings of Liberty.
I did say "it's hard to know what to take into account at all" initially afterall. All we really have is that Mengsk planned to do something not that he did/can or that it could eventuate just in time for sequel which you then assume happens as if it did say that. There's vagueness there. Doubt that he did/can rebuild is justifiable given the ample displays of Mengsk's poor leadership. Things could go anywhere from here.
That we incidentally have something more solid and not vague (compared to your example) in that very same epilogue which actually turns out not to be true at all is just the clincher. How do you account for such a discrepancy (because I know I can't) and still think your position is unassailable?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
That's not an answer. You don't write a cat you intend to describe as black with the word white because you're 'a bad writer'. The accusation that the Blizzard writers don't know what words mean has no basis at all.
It really is that simple. That example you gave is exactly what Blizz did with Mengsk post Sc1. Is it any wonder people are confused about Mengsk when we are told that Mengsk is supposed to be smart when shown/ everything else on display is clearly in opposition of that.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
No, the leader of the Confederacy in SC1 was literally a nobody, no quotation marks. They didn't exist because they didn't have the means to flesh them out.
Not sure what you're talking about here. Wasn't even referencing specific people let alone a single affiliation. To clarify, I meant every single character in Sc1 was literally a blank slate/random new character at the time of release and people accepted them wholeheartedly. Hell, people took to Stukov, Dugalle and all the new characters in BW (arguably the most memorable thing to come from BW at the least) without much trouble. So no, I do not hold to your belief that "characters with established stories are inherently more interesting than some random new guy". That the new characters in Sc2 actually come across as cardboard cutout despite them having the most potential and interest is the fault of the writing not because it's "inherent" that they are not interesting.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
That's incorrect. Blizzard never introduced anyone to a Nyon role in SC1.
Eh, I meant that generally in terms of introducing new characters. Warfield comes off being generally uninteresting (despite being new) characterwise as much as Nyon does.
Besides, there were characters who did fill a role similar to Nyon's throughout SC1 and BW at first - they were often characters that were in opposition to the player character (such as Duke in Rebel Yell) - but only for a short period of time before they became part of the story. Mengsk in BW feels like Nyon type character in BW at times.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Now you're just talking about writing an entirely different story. Incidentally, Wings of Liberty was not about the fight against Mengsk, any more than Rebel Yell was about surviving the invasion of the Zerg. Those are just things that happen during the story, and help shape it.
It's not really about deinfesting Kerrigan and quelling the Zerg threat either, I know, it's supposed to be about Raynor finding himself again and to somehow redeem himself from his own internalised perceived guilt. Good luck trying to convince people of the latter and not be shooed away as being pretentious or reading into it more than what is plainly in front of you.
Given that the game hardly explores this stuff in any consistent or conducive way, all we can really do is latch onto the actual stuff that Raynor does do. Even if we were willing to think more in it, it just makes all the stuff that Raynor does do in WoL (fighting Mengsk) seem even more pointless. If that really was the intent (to show that up until Raynor saved Kerrigan, everything he was doing throughout WoL up to that aforementioned point, was all just long-winded aimless stuff to show how "empty" Raynor had become), then that must be best case of fridge brilliance I've ever come across!
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Eh, I'll save it for later. I've got a fair deal to write about already.
Take your time.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Sorry guys, but with Legacy of the Void spoilers being posted, I'm probably going to start avoiding this forum until the game actually comes out, much as I did back before Heart of the Swarm. I know it should be possible to avoid them anyway, but I got unlucky for Wings of Liberty and I'd like to avoid that in the future. I'll still check in for Origins but that's likely it. Good news for some ;). I will return :P.
