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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Okay, using absolute terms,
I didn't say using relative terms was wrong, I was implying that stating facts from the game doesn't mean anything when you can't show that the ending point is unreasonable given the starting point. You've already agreed that Mengsk's rise to power in WoL is unreasonable. But now you're doing the same for SC1 and BW, so the burden of proof is on you, not me.
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demonstrate that Mengsk is unreasonably more powerful in Wings of Liberty than he should be.
Ok: http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthrea...l=1#post182585
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So? The Zerg get defeated all over the place and only become more powerful.
The zerg hatch from eggs and can replicate whole armies as an afterthought. That's why they're the menace of the galaxy and rolled over the protoss and terrans. Any comparison you make with them will be irrelevant.
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Being defeated doesn't mean you're annihilated. In fact, Omega makes it a point that Mengsk's fleet was not annihilated by contrasting it to the UED's. He was forced to retreat. Truly, he is unfit for leadership because he hasn't had any more success against the Zerg than anyone else.
That was the point: Kerrigan gave him enough scraps to survive so she could continue toying with him. She also told him "Did you really think I'd allow you to come into power again?"
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Do you have any evidence?
See above.
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Protecting his people from terrorists is also his job, and that's assuming Kate Lockwell somehow has accurate information about Dominion spending. I'm not expecting much transparency from the Dominion government.
Well, Kate seems to think it's a waste of money with what information she does have.
BW manual:
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Having crowned himself Emperor of the Dominion, all of the Terran colonies within the Koprulu sector were united under one sovereign rule for the first time.
With General Edmund Duke by his side, Mengsk was unopposed by any of the major Terran Militias within the Sector.
That was also the point of his inauguration speech and Fenix commenting on how greedy Moria is because they abandoned the Dominion to make money.
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I haven't read the Frontline comics, and they're irrelevant: if there is a problem in Wings of Liberty, the evidence should come from Wings of Liberty.
Yes. It was a random aside that can be ignored for all intents and purposes.
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So Mengsk getting demolished on Korhal puts him in an unrecoverable position, the KMC getting demolished on Moria puts them in a perfect position to overthrow Mengsk? I disagree.
It's not the same thing. Mengsk lost 3 times and Moria was raided, not demolished. Fenix even says that it's a "covert" mission.
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It's hard to say if they were someone's target or not when they don't appear. Either way there doesn't need to be any specific reason to invade Umoja: The Stand demonstrates that Cerebrates can just appear on a planet for absolutely no reason and have the power to wipe out the entire Protoss species, so there's no reason to assume that Umoja got spared.
Not that this is important. If you want to say that the Umojan's situation relative to the Dominion in Wings of Liberty is problematic, you first need to demonstrate their situation relative to the Dominion at the end of Brood War.
Whether it's Umoja or a random dissident in Mengsk's government, there is a clear narrative problem here in the idea that Mengsk is the only one capable of leading the terrans, no matter how many times he gets defeated and embarassed.
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Even if I were willing to accept all your assumptions, you still have not demonstrated that the Kel-Morian Combine had the power to push Mengsk around at the end of Brood War.
The Morians started off with their own supercarrier of people in the koprulu sector, and challenged the Confederacy during the Guild Wars.
The Confederacy was destroyed by Mengsk's psi emitters (9 of the 13 core worlds got wasted). That alone is enough to justify my argument. But then Mengsk got trashed by the UED and the Morians went back to working for themselves. Then Korhal got wrecked by Kerrigan. Then Kerrigan destroyed all of Mengsk's assets on Augustgrad again. Then Mengsk lost the puny remainders of whatever he had left at Omega.
In the meantime, Moria was attacked once for a mineral raid. So, tell me, who sounds like they're in a better position?
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Or, it could be the complete opposite of what you say: in Brood War Kerrigan was only able to conquer Korhal by allying herself with the Protoss and the Dominion - two of the most powerful factions in the game
- and sacking the Kel-Morian Combine for resources, then betraying her allies to gain a definitive advantage. In StarCraft II, even after losing a vast amount of her Broods in space after her deinfestation, and leaving a massive portion of her remaining warriors in space during the actual invasion, and Mengsk getting all the time to fortify himself on Korhal, and taking a deliberate strategic disadvantage to reduce civilian casualties, and Mengsk pulling out a magic macguffin out of his arse that straight-up kills Zerg, Kerrigan still had no problem taking Korhal. Clearly, Korhal was incredibly stronger in Brood War, and this is clear evidence that Mengsk never recovered from his losses then. There you go, evidence that Mengsk never recovered.
Many broods went feral after the Overmind died too. Then a giant chunk of the swarm was annihilated by the xel'naga temple on Shakuras. Then Char was invaded and captured by the UED where the zerg casualties were in the millions. Then Kerrigan had to deal with the psi disruptor, which was way worse than the psi destroyer because it prevented her from controlling her minions at all (that's the only reason she needed allies). In addition, Korhal in SC1 was guarded by UED slave broods. Where were the slave broods protecting Korhal in HoTS? Kerrigan even kept a bunch of her Leviathans up in space, and told Zagara to take the rest of the swarm away if she loses, which implies she didn't even have to use the entire swarm to destroy Korhal. So no, I'm not buying this assertion at all, even with Blizzard's retcons and creative liberties for HoTS.
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Kerrigan still had no problem taking Korhal.
Again I quote: "Toughest fight of our lives".
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There you go, evidence that Mengsk never recovered.
Not even close.
*spends trillions of credits on Raynor
*spends lavish amount of money beautifying Korhal
*builds extravagant weapons like the Odin and unveils a new battlecruiser every week
Even the WoL CD intro says "Meanwhile, the Dominion has grown in power and extended its influence throughout the Koprulu sector." This is the same as saying that it's vying with the other factions for power and winning.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Again I quote: "Toughest fight of our lives".
See, this is why I'm curious just WHAT info she stored in Izsha, and just WHAT she remembered of Dominion industrial capacity. Since there's been WAY too much talk on the battlenet forums that destroying those Dominion worlds weren't even necessary.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Was gonna reply to FT but I think Grad has officially subbed himself in perfectly. Thanks for the assist! :D
What I'm not understanding with FTs position so far is that he's demanding concrete evidence for something that is intimated through logical subtext where he has not provided similar standards of evidence to back his justification beyond saying Mengsk can recover because he can and the game shows us. Why it Ok for him to sit on the superficiality of such a stance and not us? If we are to establish that Mengsk's comeback in Sc2 is not absurd because it was absurd previously (there's some squirelly circular reasoning there), why/how are Mengsk's comebacks in BW considered absurd/impossible? I think our position can't be much more clearer than presented.
I think it helps if we contextualise this issue with Mengsk's power level with another example. Much as the Protoss lovers out there dislike the current path, the downward slide in Protoss has been consistently justifiable across the installments so far. Their numerous losses have pretty much left them as a footnote in Sc2 and reasonably so. If we are to use them as the template for the current debate, imagine if they were represented like Mengsk/Dominion are in Sc2 after what they went through and try to explain that as being logically reasonable. It's partly why I have trepidation about LotV having the Protoss magically save the day because they it happened to be that they weren't so crippled afterall.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Was gonna reply to FT but I think Grad has officially subbed himself in perfectly. Thanks for the assist! :D
What I'm not understanding with FTs position so far is that he's demanding concrete evidence for something that is intimated through logical subtext where he has not provided similar standards of evidence to back his justification beyond saying Mengsk can recover because he can and the game shows us. Why it Ok for him to sit on the superficiality of such a stance and not us? If we are to establish that Mengsk's comeback in Sc2 is not absurd because it was absurd previously (there's some squirelly circular reasoning there), why/how are Mengsk's comebacks in BW considered absurd/impossible? I think our position can't be much more clearer than presented.
Turalyon, it's kind of like this:
By the end of the Brood War, although Korhal took damage due to UED occupation, it DOES seem that the UED didn't leave Korhal a total wasteland or anything like that. Remember, in the terran campaign, there were only TWO missions on Korhal. The first was to attack the Dominion physics labs or nuclear silos, and the 2nd was to deal with Mengsk himself.
If that's true, then essentially most of Korhal was not attacked by the UED, but simply occupied when Mengsk fell from power. And that means most of Korhal was not left badly damaged when the UED forces were driven off, even after the Zerg campaign on the planet. This could mean that enough industrial facilities and everything was still left intact and everything. After all, the UED seemed only to attack military targets, not industrial ones, and in the Zerg campaign it was only about dealing with the UED.
In that sense, Kerrigan was relatively stupid in saying she left Mengsk was nothing but tatters after killing Duke.
Point is, if those facilities had been left intact, then it would make sense how Mengsk was able to restore Korhal relatively quickly.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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See, those 5 separate invasions against the swarm Warfield was telling Raynor about proved both the Dominion was weak AND that he was an incompetent general.
After all, if he led those invasions, why didn't UNN say anything?
Because the writers only intended the news as comic relief, as opposed to giving the Dominion point of view. More specifically, it was impossible to tell a consistent story when the levels could happen in almost any order. Yes, this is an out-of-universe perspective, but I think it is the correct answer.
The news spots are only supposed to make sense in very specific cases that directly relate to the level you've just played (terrorist attack blamed on the Spectres...). The rest is filler showing Kate Lockwell being cut or reports where every noun is censored by a beep, so I don't think it is safe to draw conclusions based on what the news don't report.
In fact, I'd be willing to ignore that "trillions" line on the grounds that most of these news are stupid anyway.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
If you're going to say that Mengsk having access to an entire fleet in Omega is not evidence, I am certainly going to dismiss 'spending trillions' as being evidence. Especially since we have no way of knowing if that's really what he was spending his money on.
The other Terran powers being unheard of is entirely consistent with StarCraft and Brood War. There was never any mention of how the Umojan Protectorate and Kel-Morian Combine reacted to the Confederacy's collapse in the games. Remember that I'm asking you to provide evidence that he is improbably stronger in Wings of Liberty than he was in Brood War, so if you want to use the fact that the other Terran powers are not interfering in Wings as evidence, you need to demonstrate that the other Terran powers were interfering at the end of Brood War, otherwise you can't demonstrate that this is an improvement.
Again, the Terran fleet we see in Omega is a Dominion fleet the same way that the troops who landed in Normandy were British. The Dominion didn't recover in the SC2 sense, he found other forces willing to help him.
That is proof that the Dominion was not an overwhelmingly dominant Terran force anymore, since his leaders had to negotiate with whoever could send them soldiers instead of ordering them in line. Do you imagine Mengsk calling favors so he could send Duke to defend the Dylarian shipyard? The Terran coalition at Omega ("rag-tag fleet") doesn't come together because Mengsk is the one who asks, but because people who normally want nothing to do with him ("special interest groups") also hate Kerrigan.
I was about to write about Moria and Umjoa, but Gradius summed it up already.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
I didn't say using relative terms was wrong, I was implying that stating facts from the game doesn't mean anything when you can't show that the ending point is unreasonable given the starting point. You've already agreed that Mengsk's rise to power in WoL is unreasonable. But now you're doing the same for SC1 and BW, so the burden of proof is on you, not me.
I agreed that Mengsk's rise in power in Wings of Liberty was unreasonable based on the same standards I used to conclude that his rises in power in Brood War were unreasonable. If you argue that my standards are incorrect, then I cannot conclude that his rise in power in Wings of Liberty was unreasonable. The burden of proof for that is on you, not me.
Besides, how does pointing out that Mengsk has become a considerable threat to the UED off of four (or two) surviving worlds in the span of a few months not show that the ending point is unreasonable?
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
This is the same narrative I've read before, but it doesn't actually demonstrate what I asked for. You've only demonstrated that Mengsk was weaker at the end of Brood War than he was at the beginning. With regards to the two waqys Mengsk had of staying in power, you haven't demonstrated that Mengsk no longer had any military force, and worse, since Mengsk returned from Omega with his battered fleet but the Zerg don't show up again for five years, you've demonstrated that Mengsk would appear to be best suited to protecting the Sector from aliens.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
The zerg hatch from eggs and can replicate whole armies as an afterthought. That's why they're the menace of the galaxy and rolled over the protoss and terrans. Any comparison you make with them will be irrelevant.
"Hatching from eggs" is not a free process, despite what you pretend: "Even the Zerg require Minerals to harden their carapaces and develop strong teeth and bones/The Zerg have adapted to use raw Vespene as a source of nourishment to drive their highly accelerated metabolisms." The Zerg require the same resources Terrans need to build Battlecruisers.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
That was the point: Kerrigan gave him enough scraps to survive so she could continue toying with him. She also told him "Did you really think I'd allow you to come into power again?"
She also said "My stare alone would reduce you to ashes". Mengsk, on the other hand, says "Just remember that I'll be out there... waiting for you to slip up, Because sooner or later, you'll make a mistake. And when you do..." Clearly, Mengsk was correct. So again, entirely consistent with Brood War.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
BW manual:
Thanks, you are correct. But that just means that Mengsk had command of their forces until he was deposed by the UED, so they assuredly also suffered from the invasion. There is still no evidence that they were powerful enough to depose Mengsk at the end of Brood War.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
It's not the same thing. Mengsk lost 3 times and Moria was raided, not demolished. Fenix even says that it's a "covert" mission.
But Mengsk had more planets besides Korhal, as you have stated yourself. And this 'covert' mission involved the infestation of Terran Command Centers as part of its objectives.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Whether it's Umoja or a random dissident in Mengsk's government, there is a clear narrative problem here in the idea that Mengsk is the only one capable of leading the terrans, no matter how many times he gets defeated and embarassed.
But he doesn't need to be the only one. He just needs to be the one that is actually doing it.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
The Morians started off with their own supercarrier of people in the koprulu sector, and challenged the Confederacy during the Guild Wars.
The Confederacy was destroyed by Mengsk's psi emitters (9 of the 13 core worlds got wasted). That alone is enough to justify my argument. But then Mengsk got trashed by the UED and the Morians went back to working for themselves. Then Korhal got wrecked by Kerrigan. Then Kerrigan destroyed all of Mengsk's assets on Augustgrad again. Then Mengsk lost the puny remainders of whatever he had left at Omega.
In the meantime, Moria was attacked once for a mineral raid. So, tell me, who sounds like they're in a better position?
If you assume that they started out equal, which is contrary to evidence. The Kel-Morian Combine was brought to heel in the Guild Wars and was never allowed to recover. The Dominion lost more, but they had more to lose.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Many broods went feral after the Overmind died too. Then a giant chunk of the swarm was annihilated by the xel'naga temple on Shakuras. Then Char was invaded and captured by the UED where the zerg casualties were in the millions. Then Kerrigan had to deal with the psi disruptor, which was way worse than the psi destroyer because it prevented her from controlling her minions at all (that's the only reason she needed allies). In addition, Korhal in SC1 was guarded by UED slave broods. Where were the slave broods protecting Korhal in HoTS? Kerrigan even kept a bunch of her Leviathans up in space, and told Zagara to take the rest of the swarm away if she loses, which implies she didn't even have to use the entire swarm to destroy Korhal. So no, I'm not buying this assertion at all, even with Blizzard's retcons and creative liberties for HoTS.
Wait, 'dead minions' is way worse than 'hard to control minions'? Anyway, the Psi Disruptor was out of the equation before the invasion of Korhal, so you're very much mistaken about that. And there weren't many Zerg on Korhal because the UED had difficulty controlling them, so this is far less of a concern than the Psi Destroyer. Also, leaving a bunch of her Leviathans in space was part of my argument, so I'm slightly confused as to what you're going for there.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Again I quote: "Toughest fight of our lives".
Her opinion was wrong. The reality of the invasion make that clear.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Not even close.
*spends trillions of credits on Raynor
*spends lavish amount of money beautifying Korhal
*builds extravagant weapons like the Odin and unveils a new battlecruiser every week
Even the WoL CD intro says "Meanwhile, the Dominion has grown in power and extended its influence throughout the Koprulu sector." This is the same as saying that it's vying with the other factions for power and winning.
Again, demonstrate that this was beyond his means at the end of Brood War.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
What I'm not understanding with FTs position so far is that he's demanding concrete evidence for something that is intimated through logical subtext where he has not provided similar standards of evidence to back his justification beyond saying Mengsk can recover because he can and the game shows us. Why it Ok for him to sit on the superficiality of such a stance and not us? If we are to establish that Mengsk's comeback in Sc2 is not absurd because it was absurd previously (there's some squirelly circular reasoning there), why/how are Mengsk's comebacks in BW considered absurd/impossible? I think our position can't be much more clearer than presented.
Actually, that's exactly what I'm asking you. In Brood War Mengsk keeps getting knocked down, but he gets up again, ain't never gonna keep him down, but you keep demanding concrete evidence for that logical subtext. You've dismissed everything I've provided, which is fine. But now I ask you to live up to your own standards, and you're upset?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I think it helps if we contextualise this issue with Mengsk's power level with another example. Much as the Protoss lovers out there dislike the current path, the downward slide in Protoss has been consistently justifiable across the installments so far. Their numerous losses have pretty much left them as a footnote in Sc2 and reasonably so. If we are to use them as the template for the current debate, imagine if they were represented like Mengsk/Dominion are in Sc2 after what they went through and try to explain that as being logically reasonable. It's partly why I have trepidation about LotV having the Protoss magically save the day because they it happened to be that they weren't so crippled afterall.
Yeah, but the Protoss have been consistently weakening. Mengsk on the other hand just pops back up. The "logical subtext" of Mengsk's victory speech and Duke's appearance on Char is that Mengsk's new Dominion is far more powerful than the Confederacy, despite being built on nine (or seven) fewer worlds. The "logical subtext" of Kerrigan considering him a threat that needs to be dealt with using the element of surprise in True Colors is that Mengsk is still as dangerous as he ever was. And Omega? Not only is Kerrigan audibly worried when he shows up, but I completely disagree with the narrative you people have built up for his fleet.
He didn't desperately borrow a fleet on the proviso that he kill Kerrigan, the surprise was not in building a fleet, it was in building a fleet so fast. And it wasn't 'lent' to him to kill Kerrigan, there's no evidence of any other Terran group with a personal grudge against her, and that wouldn't be "a concession" or "calling in a favour" anyway. No, he bought that fleet, by promising favours and concessions that people were eager to accept because they came from the most powerful man in the Sector. That's the "logical subtext" of Omega. Everyone may have been beaten and broken by Kerrigan, but Mengsk is still the one-eyed man in the land of the blind.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Yeah, but the Protoss have been consistently weakening. Mengsk on the other hand just pops back up. The "logical subtext" of Mengsk's victory speech and Duke's appearance on Char is that Mengsk's new Dominion is far more powerful than the Confederacy, despite being built on nine (or seven) fewer worlds. The "logical subtext" of Kerrigan considering him a threat that needs to be dealt with using the element of surprise in True Colors is that Mengsk is still as dangerous as he ever was. And Omega? Not only is Kerrigan audibly worried when he shows up, but I completely disagree with the narrative you people have built up for his fleet.
He didn't desperately borrow a fleet on the proviso that he kill Kerrigan, the surprise was not in building a fleet, it was in building a fleet so fast. And it wasn't 'lent' to him to kill Kerrigan, there's no evidence of any other Terran group with a personal grudge against her, and that wouldn't be "a concession" or "calling in a favour" anyway. No, he bought that fleet, by promising favours and concessions that people were eager to accept because they came from the most powerful man in the Sector. That's the "logical subtext" of Omega. Everyone may have been beaten and broken by Kerrigan, but Mengsk is still the one-eyed man in the land of the blind.
Are you sure you have the briefings in mind? Here is the exact quote from True Colors:
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Samir Duran: "And what of your allies here on Korhal, my Queen? What would you have done with them?"
Infested Kerrigan: "They are of no further use to me. Though they have proven themselves useful, it might be dangerous to allow them to live. Without the services of General Duke, Mengsk will be easy to deal with. But Raynor and Fenix are uncannily resourceful. *sigh* They must all be eradicated. Cerebrate, I want both General Duke's and Fenix's bases destroyed. Leave no one alive."
Samir Duran: "My Queen, if I may suggest a strategy? Both the Protoss and Terran forces are resting after our previous victory. If we attack immediately, while most of them are asleep and unaware, we can whittle down their defenses with relative ease!"
It might be dangerous to let them be. Without Duke, Mengsk will be easy. Kerrigan doesn't do a surprise attack because she has to, but because that's expedient, a rather easy win. None of this fits with the idea that Arcturus is as dangerous as ever.
Omega quote:
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Arcturus Mengsk: "You sound worried, Kerrigan. Have I caught you at a bad time?"
Infested Kerrigan: "Not at all, Arcturus. How'd you manage to scrape up your new fleet? Been raiding the salvage dumps again?"
Arcturus Mengsk: "I called in a few favors. Made a few concessions. You'd be surprised to see how many special interest groups in this sector want to see you dead."
Infested Kerrigan: "I'm sorry to have to disappoint your new friends, Arcturus. But you really shouldn't have attempted this stunt. It'll take more than your three little fleets to bring me down."
Arcturus Mengsk: "Three fleets?"
Infested Kerrigan: "Don't play dumb, Arcturus. I've already spotted the other two fleets."
She didn't think he could gather a fleet that could threaten her, full stop. And that's because he couldn't, what she saw then was a combined Terran effort, plus the Protoss, plus the UED. "So fast" or any equivalent is missing. It spells out that the other Terran groups specifically want her dead.
The reason Turalyon, Gradius and I reached the same conclusion is because that's what the briefing says, in terms that are not particularly ambiguous.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
Telenil
Because the writers only intended the news as comic relief, as opposed to giving the Dominion point of view. More specifically, it was impossible to tell a consistent story when the levels could happen in almost any order. Yes, this is an out-of-universe perspective, but I think it is the correct answer.
The news spots are only supposed to make sense in very specific cases that directly relate to the level you've just played (terrorist attack blamed on the Spectres...). The rest is filler showing Kate Lockwell being cut or reports where every noun is censored by a beep, so I don't think it is safe to draw conclusions based on what the news don't report.
In fact, I'd be willing to ignore that "trillions" line on the grounds that most of these news are stupid anyway.
Oh I know that, and that was one of the flaws of WoL in telling the whole story from Raynor's POV, makes it seem like no one else ever did anything. That's why despite the prophecy is disliked, at least the Protoss mini campaign there proved something else had happened.
Kate Lockwell's actions were fine, since Mengsk used UNN's censorship to hide his own war crimes and everything. As for the trillions squandered, I'm sure it's not an EXACT number, but at the very least Mengsk had to manipulate the media to believe that.
For the part before Omega of him calling favors, of course that wasn't enough for the Dominion to recover. But at that point, the KMC and UP were still allied with the Dominion. It was only AFTER the BW that they turned away, because Mengsk's incompetent handling of the fleet there had them lose the battle, giving them the impression Mengsk was leading humanity to perdition.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
Telenil
Are you sure you have the briefings in mind? Here is the exact quote from True Colors:
It might be dangerous to let them be. Without Duke, Mengsk will be easy. Kerrigan doesn't do a surprise attack because she has to, but because that's expedient, a rather easy win. None of this fits with the idea that Arcturus is as dangerous as ever.
Sure it is. Infested Kerrigan underplays everything, it's pretty blatant what it means that they might be too dangerous to allow to live. It is that they are too dangerous to allow to live. Hence why she does not allow them to live.
But sure, I'll go the exceedingly literal route and accept the alternative position that Mengsk's power was at the precise level where it is equally likely that he could ruin Kerrigan as not, and therefore Kerrigan cannot be certain whether or not he is too dangerous to allow to live.
But I wonder how you read that to come to the conclusion that "Mengsk is not a danger to me. I do not need to kill his forces and best(? favourite?) general, but I will do so anyway." That is the exact opposite of what that briefing says.
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Originally Posted by
Telenil
Omega quote:
She didn't think he could gather a fleet that could threaten her, full stop. And that's because he couldn't, what she saw then was a combined Terran effort, plus the Protoss, plus the UED. "So fast" or any equivalent is missing. It spells out that the other Terran groups specifically want her dead.
I have no idea why you think time is not a factor, because that makes absolutely no sense. Why would it be impossible for Mengsk to gather a fleet in any amount of time? Aside from that, I haven't disagreed with any of what you've written. The Zerg are infinitely powerful, of course Mengsk couldn't threaten her. And of course other Terrans want "her" dead, where "her" is the directing influence of the Swarm. None of this is the issue.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
I have no idea why you think time is not a factor, because that makes absolutely no sense. Why would it be impossible for Mengsk to gather a fleet in any amount of time? Aside from that, I haven't disagreed with any of what you've written. The Zerg are infinitely powerful, of course Mengsk couldn't threaten her. And of course other Terrans want "her" dead, where "her" is the directing influence of the Swarm. None of this is the issue.
Not via a battle of numbers there's no way to threaten her, but numbers aren't everything in battle. Of course we didn't start seeing this until WoL, but still.
That's why I still expect the Protoss to have their power released for LotV.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Before I go on, I must say that I'm enjoying this debate more than I expected.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Actually, that's exactly what I'm asking you. In Brood War Mengsk keeps getting knocked down, but he gets up again, ain't never gonna keep him down, but you keep demanding concrete evidence for that logical subtext. You've dismissed everything I've provided, which is fine. But now I ask you to live up to your own standards, and you're upset?
Not upset, just noticing that this is going all one way. We've done most of the justifying whilst you've just sat back and taken it for granted that the thing is absurd. We've at least attempted to explain the apparent absurdity (I wouldn't call that dismissing but clarifying by the way) whereas you seem to be blinkered to that as being an unassailable fact to base your logic around. You're essentially saying Mengsk's comeback's are absurd because of contrivance when the same thing can be said of Zerg cerebrates coming back/Zerg forces recovering being absurd because it relies on contrivance. That's what I'm interpreting from you. Please enlighten/correct me, that's all I'm asking.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Yeah, but the Protoss have been consistently weakening.
Using your logic, no, they're not, otherwise Artanis wouldn't have been able to field one of the three biggest fleets to oppose Kerrigan in Omega. No, the Protoss are not consistently getting weaker because they throw-away troops and a mothership in a pissing contest with Raynor in WoL. No, the Protoss are not consistently weaker because they apparently have a Golden Armada which we should be fearful of and it seems justified because Kerrigan is afraid of it because all her actions on Kaldir are based around it.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Mengsk on the other hand just pops back up.
Just like the Protoss have been doing as described above. Wow, that's absurd! :p
You seem to be content to just trivialise his reappearances and then use that to excuse it in Sc2 because it's consistent. I and the others have stated he doesn't "just pop back" but comes back under specific conditions which we have mentioned and are self-evident. You haven't justified why we should hand-wave these as not being relevent and insist on it being absurdity forevermore.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
The "logical subtext" of Mengsk's victory speech and Duke's appearance on Char is that Mengsk's new Dominion is far more powerful than the Confederacy, despite being built on nine (or seven) fewer worlds. The "logical subtext" of Kerrigan considering him a threat that needs to be dealt with using the element of surprise in True Colors is that Mengsk is still as dangerous as he ever was. And Omega? Not only is Kerrigan audibly worried when he shows up, but I completely disagree with the narrative you people have built up for his fleet.
Ok, so this is more like what I was asking for with the above. But, I can just as easily dismiss these as you have done with our justifications. Mengsk's victory speech is clearly propaganda and not a true reflection of his or Terran capabilities (due to only having only a few core worlds left). Duke's presence on Char is meaningless since anyone can turn up anywhere and anytime just like Raynor does with his army. Kerrigan does not really see a threat in Mengsk in True Colours since she plainly reveals that she's just doing this to him out of petty revenge. She's not audibly afraid of Artanis or DuGalle in Omega, so that must mean the Protoss and UED are not as powerful.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Sure it is. Infested Kerrigan underplays everything, it's pretty blatant what it means that they might be too dangerous to allow to live. It is that they are too dangerous to allow to live. Hence why she does not allow them to live.
But sure, I'll go the exceedingly literal route and accept the alternative position that Mengsk's power was at the precise level where it is equally likely that he could ruin Kerrigan as not, and therefore Kerrigan cannot be certain whether or not he is too dangerous to allow to live.
But I wonder how you read that to come to the conclusion that "Mengsk is not a danger to me. I do not need to kill his forces and best(? favourite?) general, but I will do so anyway." That is the exact opposite of what that briefing says.
I have no idea why you think time is not a factor, because that makes absolutely no sense. Why would it be impossible for Mengsk to gather a fleet in any amount of time? Aside from that, I haven't disagreed with any of what you've written. The Zerg are infinitely powerful, of course Mengsk couldn't threaten her. And of course other Terrans want "her" dead, where "her" is the directing influence of the Swarm. None of this is the issue.
I'm beginning to suspect that you are not going to accept any argument as relevant, whatever we say.
You get a briefing that downplays the threat they might pose, says Duke's and Fenix's armies combined versus a surprise Zerg attack is pretty much a foregone conclusion, and that Kerrigan considers Fenix to be more of a threat than Mengsk would be without Duke, yet you still argue that it means the Dominion is as strong (even with respect to the other Terran) as he was during episode 5, where it took the UED two full levels to conquer Korhal.
Then you disregard that the rag-tag fleet Mengsk uses for his final push appears to be (more or less...) on par with the remainder of the UED fleet after Korhal and Char. The briefing is not very specific, but none of the fleets appeared to be overwhelmingly larger than the others. A large part of Arcturus' fleet comes from groups that were not particularly sympathetic to the Dominion, to whom he had to make concessions, and it all made less than half of the army which would give Kerrigan pause but fail to defeat her. Despite surprise.
... and yet you get from this that he is blatantly as much of a threat as he was two campaigns before?
You are entitled to your own opinion. If you still don't agree with us, fine, let's agree to disagree. What I find unreasonnable is the claim that you were not given any evidence.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Telenil
Then you disregard that the rag-tag fleet Mengsk uses for his final push appears to be (more or less...) on par with the remainder of the UED fleet after Korhal and Char. The briefing is not very specific, but none of the fleets appeared to be overwhelmingly larger than the others. A large part of Arcturus' fleet comes from groups that were not particularly sympathetic to the Dominion, to whom he had to make concessions, and it all made less than half of the army which would give Kerrigan pause but fail to defeat her. Despite surprise.
... and yet you get from this that he is blatantly as much of a threat as he was two campaigns before?
Telenil, you and I both know sometimes your opponent can be tougher than he should be FOR THE SAKE OF GAMEPLAY.
Are you SURE the fleet Mengsk scraped up was really that powerful? Or was that simply for gameplay reasons?
Because you have to remember that by Omega mission, the Dominion military was largely still in tatters. Sure, Mengsk could have turned to the KMC, but their fleet is VERY outdated and can barely do anything.
In fact, the only reason why Kerrigan had difficulty AT ALL in the Moria mission in BW was because she had JUST regained control over her broods, and was still in the process of getting them strengthened.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
Because you have to remember that by Omega mission, the Dominion military was largely still in tatters. Sure, Mengsk could have turned to the KMC, but their fleet is VERY outdated and can barely do anything.
I'd argue a bit on the phrasing, but yes, that's what I was saying. That Mengsk's fleet was not nearly as threatening as what he could have gathered before the fall of Korhal.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Telenil
I'd argue a bit on the phrasing, but yes, that's what I was saying. That Mengsk's fleet was not nearly as threatening as what he could have gathered before the fall of Korhal.
Yeah but Mengsk was still full of his own arrogance in believing Dominion invincibility right before the UED arrived.
Remember, even when confronted by Dugalle, he STILL believed he'd win. He only began to learn a LITTLE when Korhal fell. When back in his hands and the loss of Duke, he had to see the other way because there was no other choice. But then, in the 4 years that followed, he forgot it all again.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Before I go on, I must say that I'm enjoying this debate more than I expected.
I'm glad to read that! I was actually worried that I was getting annoying and going to ask if you guys wanted me to just drop it ;).
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Not upset, just noticing that this is going all one way. We've done most of the justifying whilst you've just sat back and taken it for granted that the thing is absurd. We've at least attempted to explain the apparent absurdity (I wouldn't call that dismissing but clarifying by the way) whereas you seem to be blinkered to that as being an unassailable fact to base your logic around. You're essentially saying Mengsk's comeback's are absurd because of contrivance when the same thing can be said of Zerg cerebrates coming back/Zerg forces recovering being absurd because it relies on contrivance. That's what I'm interpreting from you. Please enlighten/correct me, that's all I'm asking.
You're correct that I consider the Zerg shifting from defeated on Aiur to infinitely powerful to be a similar issue, but that's also pretty clearly a retcon. But I do think I've expressed frequently why I feel that Mengsk's earlier comebacks are absurd, the whole 4/13 Terran worlds, being deposed by the UED, being abandoned in the ashes of his empire by Kerrigan, yet always popping back up as a threat. I consider those to be equally implausible as Mengsk's big comeback in Wings of Liberty, where he certainly comes back stronger, but also doesn't do it in the span of a few weeks. But you think his comeback in Wings is problematic, while those in Brood War are not, and I want to know what the difference is. Omega shows Mengsk as still being the most powerful man in the Sector, he can buy an army with favours and concessions - and listen, I don't think there's any concession I could make that would allow me to buy an aircraft carrier ;) - and those favours and concessions are only worth something because of the power, authority and influence Mengsk wields, and the expectation that he will continue to wields them. There's never any evidence that other Terran groups are better off than he is at the end - the epilogue tells us that Mengsk slunk back home to rebuild his empire, and Wings shows us that this is exactly what he did. That Mengsk came back is exactly what one should have expected from the end of Brood War, that he did is not absurd, merely the scale at which he did - and if we're only talking about scale, then the fact that he was able to leverage four surviving worlds into building 'the most heavily fortified city in Dominion space' and becoming a considerable threat to the UED in just a few months, or the fact that he bargained his way from sitting in the ashes of his empire to commanding one of the most powerful fleets around in a few days or weeks is equally absurd.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Using your logic, no, they're not, otherwise Artanis wouldn't have been able to field one of the three biggest fleets to oppose Kerrigan in Omega.
The fact that the Protoss have a fleet comparable to Mengsk's is a sign of Mengsk's recovery, but not a sign of the Protoss' - the difference in power between the Protoss and the Terrans at the beginning of StarCraft is immense, with Tassadar sparing Confederate fleets out of mercy. The fact that they are now of comparable strength either means that the Terrans are incredibly stronger now, or that the Protoss are far weaker, or a little bit of both. It can also be that the Terrans are slightly weaker and the Protoss massively weaker, which might be what you're going for, but even then, I refer you to the one-eyed man in the land of the blind idiom - even if Mengsk is weaker than he was at a previous time, he's still the strongest Terran around unless there's evidence that the other Terran factions didn't suffer.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Just like the Protoss have been doing as described above. Wow, that's absurd! :p
The Protoss do seem to have miraculously recovered in Heart of the Swarm if we're judging by this Golden Armada threat, but it's pretty hard to be sure because the Protoss never bloody appear in StarCraft II. Except the Adun-damned Tal'darim. Ugh. But this is not a source of disagreement between us, as far as I understand.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
You seem to be content to just trivialise his reappearances and then use that to excuse it in Sc2 because it's consistent. I and the others have stated he doesn't "just pop back" but comes back under specific conditions which we have mentioned and are self-evident. You haven't justified why we should hand-wave these as not being relevent and insist on it being absurdity forevermore.
Sure, and when I asked you to demonstrate how Mengsk had unrealistically popped back up in Wings of Liberty, I pointed out that there was nothing contradictory to his situation at the end of Brood War, but you also insist on it being absurdity.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Ok, so this is more like what I was asking for with the above. But, I can just as easily dismiss these as you have done with our justifications. Mengsk's victory speech is clearly propaganda and not a true reflection of his or Terran capabilities (due to only having only a few core worlds left). Duke's presence on Char is meaningless since anyone can turn up anywhere and anytime just like Raynor does with his army. Kerrigan does not really see a threat in Mengsk in True Colours since she plainly reveals that she's just doing this to him out of petty revenge. She's not audibly afraid of Artanis or DuGalle in Omega, so that must mean the Protoss and UED are not as powerful.
Exactly. After you (general you, not specific you) dismissed everything that showed Mengsk's recoveries in Brood War, I asked for demonstrations of his recovery in Wings of Liberty and nothing was provided that I couldn't equally easily dismiss. You're using different standards to determine whether Mengsk's recoveries in Brood War or Wings of Liberty are absurd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Telenil
I'm beginning to suspect that you are not going to accept any argument as relevant, whatever we say.
You get a briefing that downplays the threat they might pose, says Duke's and Fenix's armies combined versus a surprise Zerg attack is pretty much a foregone conclusion, and that Kerrigan considers Fenix to be more of a threat than Mengsk would be without Duke, yet you still argue that it means the Dominion is as strong (even with respect to the other Terran) as he was during episode 5, where it took the UED two full levels to conquer Korhal.
Again, Kerrigan has downplayed every threat, including Tassadar, Zeratul, the Templar, the Dark Templar, the UED and the Dominion. In fact, let's compare Kerrigan's dialogue in To Chain the Beast to Mengsk's in Omega:
Kerrigan: You see, Admiral... there are a number of groups in this sector who feel that your involvement here causes certain complications. My associates and I intend to make sure that your reign is short lived.
Mengsk:: I called in a few favors. Made a few concessions. You'd be surprised to see how many special interest groups in this sector want to see you dead.
Kerrigan: Ah, you're referring to your vaunted Psi Disrupter. It won't last you forever, Admiral. Sooner or later, I'll destroy it. Then I'll show you what the Zerg are really capable of.
Mengsk: Just remember that I'll be out there... waiting for you to slip up. Because sooner or later you'll make a mistake. And when you do...
Eerily similar, isn't it? Do you also believe that Kerrigan was in an irrecoverable position at the end of The Iron Fist?
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Originally Posted by
Telenil
Then you disregard that the rag-tag fleet Mengsk uses for his final push appears to be (more or less...) on par with the remainder of the UED fleet after Korhal and Char. The briefing is not very specific, but none of the fleets appeared to be overwhelmingly larger than the others. A large part of Arcturus' fleet comes from groups that were not particularly sympathetic to the Dominion, to whom he had to make concessions, and it all made less than half of the army which would give Kerrigan pause but fail to defeat her. Despite surprise.
... and yet you get from this that he is blatantly as much of a threat as he was two campaigns before?
Yes, let's look at this rag-tag fleet which is on par with the remainder of the UED... Here's what that fleet looks like... after it has been defeated in Omega. Which means that Mengsk bought himself a much larger fleet in a matter of days or weeks, and still has something comparable after Omega, in his allegedly irrecoverable state. The fact that it cannot threaten the Zerg is irrelevant, the Zerg are infinitely powerful starting with Brood War. What you need to demonstrate is that this feat somehow makes him too weak to rule the Dominion.
Hell, if Ragnarok's claim that the Dominion only had 50 Battlecruisers by the invasion of Char in Wings of Liberty is accurate, then you've clearly inverted which recoveries are sane or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Telenil
You are entitled to your own opinion. If you still don't agree with us, fine, let's agree to disagree. What I find unreasonnable is the claim that you were not given any evidence.
I have not been given any evidence that Mengsk's recovery in Wings of Liberty is less credible than his recoveries in Brood War. When I provide evidence of the absurdity of Mengsk's recoveries in Brood War, it gets refuted, and when you provide evidence of the absurdity of Mengsk's recoveries in Wings of Liberty, I refute it as well.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Hell, if Ragnarok's claim that the Dominion only had 50 Battlecruisers by the invasion of Char in Wings of Liberty is accurate, then you've clearly inverted which recoveries are sane or not.
THAT is about the only part I felt was SEVERELY flawed in the Flashpoint novel that Christie Golden wrote.
The swarm's population on Char was over 10 billion. Sure, Kerrigan scattered plenty of them across the sector to look for the Xel'Naga relics, but still.
You'd have to still expect at least 3 to 4 billion on Char by the time of the invasion. A force of 25 battlecruisers would be useless against that. Hell, given that much Zerg, you'd need at least 2500 battlecruisers or something to have a good chance.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
I was actually worried that I was getting annoying and going to ask if you guys wanted me to just drop it
Not to me. I'm not in it to argue for arguments sake, only to challenge assertions and gain better understanding. I think by now you, of all people, would be assured to have a solid opinion that is worth listening to. It's just trying to understand where it's coming from is the tricky part.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
You're correct that I consider the Zerg shifting from defeated on Aiur to infinitely powerful to be a similar issue, but that's also pretty clearly a retcon.
Curious. Had WoL never seen the light of day, in what state did you think Mengsk ended up in at the end of BW? Did you think that his accumulated losses had any significant consequence at all?
The overpoweredness of the Zerg in BW, to me, is really only self-evident and sinks in after the exodus of Aiur. That first mission in The Stand is reasonable in the sense that everything is in disarray and that there are no clear indicators there (aside from the requisite gameplay-story segregation issue of the Zerg only seemingly waiting and gunning for your units most of the time) that the Zerg are overpowered in the sense that they weren't affected by the Overmind's death.
With WoL, we do not even get an indication that Mengsk suffered at all. You say that BW is worthless on it's own because everything is undone by the end which is debatable because one can argue the same case for Sc1 when looking at that just by itself ("Man, what a waste of time that Overmind campaign was because it gets killed in the end and the Zerg are repelled"). It could have gone either way. WoL was an opportunity to look at possible consequences of BW, but instead it immediately sweeps any possible significance it could have had under a rug.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
But I do think I've expressed frequently why I feel that Mengsk's earlier comebacks are absurd, the whole 4/13 Terran worlds, being deposed by the UED, being abandoned in the ashes of his empire by Kerrigan, yet always popping back up as a threat.
Do you also consider Raynor's "comeback" (where did his army come from?) in Eye of the Storm absurd after being crushed in Agent of the Swarm and being somewhat alone in The Hunt for Tassadar? Afterall, like Mengsk, Raynor can only draw from a smaller pool of Terran worlds now and worse, he doesn't have access to other resources like Mengsk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
I consider those to be equally implausible as Mengsk's big comeback in Wings of Liberty, where he certainly comes back stronger, but also doesn't do it in the span of a few weeks. But you think his comeback in Wings is problematic, while those in Brood War are not, and I want to know what the difference is.
You haven't articulated exactly what it is but I'm starting to think that what you are railing against is actually similar to what I and the others are railing against in that it's about Mengsk's inherent/potential capability or rather, where the conceit of his capability begins/ends. The difference being that you're starting point is with the notion that the Terran force, such as it is by the end of Sc1, has no real further/future potential making any possibility of Mengsk coming back from any fall of grace at all unrealistic whereas I/the others seem to be starting off with the notion that the Terrans still have some level of inherent/potential capability (by the end of Sc1) that Mengsk can potentially tap into but becomes exhausted and/or closed off over time (throughout BW). Am I right so far? Does this clarify our position a bit more?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
favours and concessions are only worth something because of the power, authority and influence Mengsk wields, and the expectation that he will continue to wields them.
An expectation that gets shattered when he loses. We must not forget that there has to be some consequence for his constant failures, of which this is the latest (and last one). Sure he came back twice, but he wasn't exactly in the same position as he was each time he came back. Or is it that irrelevant to you? I don't see how one can disregard that.
What power, authority and influence can possibly wield when he's only been "in office" for a few months and still coming to grips with forming a system of government? Not only that, Mengsk has been shown to "buy" things, such as Duke's (he's a general for God's sake) loyalty, due to his propensity to manipulate others by instilling the fear of something comparatively greater as the alternative to his way. He was doing this to Kerrigan and Raynor the whole time and he could do this without the actual power and influence one would associates with those who would be in legitimate positions of power over Terran affairs.
Besides, we only have Mengsk's words to go by. I know I'm really stretching and going into hypotheticals here when I say this, but these "special interest groups" may have only lent him the fleet in the hopes that he would be killed trying to tackle on the Zerg. He's failed to attack the Zerg on previous attempts through Duke in Sc1 and has been handed military defeats by the UED and Kerrigan in BW. We know that anyone can try their hands at propaganda (the UED for example), so how can we be sure that these groups don't know this and want Mengsk to fall on his sword? Even if Mengsk did destroy the common threat that is the Zerg, it was with their forces. They may take orders from Mengsk for the mission at hand but are they loyal only to Mengsk in other respects? Are we expected to think that there aren't other schemers other than Mengsk out there? Who knows?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
There's never any evidence that other Terran groups are better off than he is at the end
But we can take this either way. Did the other Terran groups also suffer similar devastating setbacks as Mengsk? Maybe not, if they can lend such a fleet to Mengsk. Even if they were at a lower level prior to BW, they would be on a more equal footing (the gap would've closed considerably at the least) as Mengsk by the end of BW which would have made life difficult for him in order to establish his power over all Terrans, let alone have time to improve on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
the epilogue tells us that Mengsk slunk back home to rebuild his empire, and Wings shows us that this is exactly what he did.
So what? It also says Raynor disappeared and no-one ever heard of him since but in the 5 years he made a name for himself fighting Mengsk as shown in WoL. It's not the only time something intimated in an epilogue only to be proved false later when Sc1 ends with Protoss victory only for BW to go on and say otherwise. You can't use the later installment as as backward justification for something that could've just as easily turned out to be the opposite at the time (just as BW did to Sc1 in terms of Zerg power).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
That Mengsk came back is exactly what one should have expected from the end of Brood War, that he did is not absurd, merely the scale at which he did - and if we're only talking about scale, then the fact that he was able to leverage four surviving worlds into building 'the most heavily fortified city in Dominion space' and becoming a considerable threat to the UED in just a few months, or the fact that he bargained his way from sitting in the ashes of his empire to commanding one of the most powerful fleets around in a few days or weeks is equally absurd.
You may have something with regards to the UED's threat assessment of Mengsk but consider the following questions. Can we consider 'the most heavily fortified city in Dominion space' to be relative to what is possible with only four remaining worlds? How much of a threat is Mengsk relative to the UED's main mission of eliminating the aliens? Should we expect the UED to treat all potential threats, no matter how small, seriously? If so, then this doesn't really speak much of Mengsk's power at all. One could say that the UED attacked Mengsk first because it was potentially the easiest task to complete first.
As to his bargaining ability, well, I've mentioned something about that in my response to your previous statement above. The conceit of Mengsk's character is that he has a silver tongue and that he can bluff well even with a poor hand/position. Also, we don't know if there are any additional strings to his new-found power in Omega, he's not openly going to admit that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
The fact that the Protoss have a fleet comparable to Mengsk's is a sign of Mengsk's recovery, but not a sign of the Protoss' - the difference in power between the Protoss and the Terrans at the beginning of StarCraft is immense, with Tassadar sparing Confederate fleets out of mercy. The fact that they are now of comparable strength either means that the Terrans are incredibly stronger now, or that the Protoss are far weaker, or a little bit of both.
You make a good point but that's not the point I was making. I'm not talking about comparisons (which are iffy to do at the best of times), I'm talking only about the Protoss. The force presented by Artanis appears to be one of their biggest showings so far and this is after having both their homeworlds almost expunged of all life! It seems like a miraculous recovery with no apparent reasoning behind it at all. Do you consider this absurd? By the same token, is this scenario any less absurd than Mengsk's situation? You should complain about this, too!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
he's still the strongest Terran around unless there's evidence that the other Terran factions didn't suffer.
Can you really attribute Mengsk's display of strength in Omega as being solely his own when it really wasn't his to begin with? The fleet is the measure of his power, but it wasn't his in the first place. The conceit is that Mengsk can come from a position of relative weakness to a position of relative strength here due to him bargaining on something that other parties are interested in (that is, the ending of the Zerg threat/killling Kerrigan). They are investing on Mengsk to do something. He fails in this venture which closes this avenue for him to exploit again and also makes his most back-to-basics tactics unreliable now. He gambled big time by making such promises and concessions and he lost, he won't be in a position for a do-over and has nothing else (he can't promise to end the Zerg threat because he outrightly failed and he can't offer Dominion support/whatever because it's in ashes) to put on the table to wager.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
You're using different standards to determine whether Mengsk's recoveries in Brood War or Wings of Liberty are absurd.
How? We've attempted to preface Mengsk's recoveries in BW as being not-absurd to highlight the apparent absurdity of his recovery in WoL.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Curious. Had WoL never seen the light of day, in what state did you think Mengsk ended up in at the end of BW? Did you think that his accumulated losses had any significant consequence at all?
As I pointed out elsewhere, the last things we hear about Mengsk in Brood War is that he's promising Kerrigan that this isn't over and he'll get her next time, and the epilogue narration promises that Mengsk would rebuild the Dominion, so sure, I was pretty much expecting Mengsk to continue being the leader of the most powerful human faction. The problem with the ending of Brood War with regards to making Mengsk weak is that there's nobody to make him weaker than. Sure, he's weaker than the Zerg, but that doesn't mean anything. Omega explicitly places him alongside the UED and the Protoss, and is there anything in the games at this point that suggests there might be another group more powerful than these? The UED gets completely annihilated by Kerrigan, but I at no point figured that Mengsk and Artanis would be weakened to irrelevance in the sequel. There's no one else to take their place.
That's what I mean when I say that his weakness is relative. He gets weaker than he was at the beginning of Brood War, but so is everyone else except the infinitely powerful Zerg. But so long as he's still the strongest Terran around, there's no reason to remove him as the head of the Dominion (especially since he serves such a valuable narrative role as an antagonist commanding one of the game's three races - this is something that looks to become especially problematic after Heart of the Swarm with Good Prince Valerian and Hearty Kerrigan and Artanis commanding the three races).
As to how much he's recovered, I never denied that it was absurd, but StarCraft is a war game, so the characters need to have access to vast military forces. A slow recovery would age our human characters to death, and not inflicting significant damage would lower the stakes of the story. That's why I compare it to Mengsk's rebounds in Brood War - every time he pops back up, he needs to have the power to threaten the player, even if a few days or weeks ago he was 'abandoned in the ashes of his empire', now he's commanding a massive fleet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
The overpoweredness of the Zerg in BW, to me, is really only self-evident and sinks in after the exodus of Aiur. That first mission in The Stand is reasonable in the sense that everything is in disarray and that there are no clear indicators there (aside from the requisite gameplay-story segregation issue of the Zerg only seemingly waiting and gunning for your units most of the time) that the Zerg are overpowered in the sense that they weren't affected by the Overmind's death.
Well, the epilogue of StarCraft is pretty clearly saying that the Zerg on Aiur have been defeated, but it's true that in that first mission they don't yet appear to be infinitely powerful. But the rest of The Stand does that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
With WoL, we do not even get an indication that Mengsk suffered at all. You say that BW is worthless on it's own because everything is undone by the end which is debatable because one can argue the same case for Sc1 when looking at that just by itself ("Man, what a waste of time that Overmind campaign was because it gets killed in the end and the Zerg are repelled"). It could have gone either way. WoL was an opportunity to look at possible consequences of BW, but instead it immediately sweeps any possible significance it could have had under a rug.
The comparison to the original StarCraft is invalid. The status quo at the end of StarCraft is immensely different than it was at the beginning: humanity has encountered alien races, had most of its planets devastated by them, overthrown a corrupt, tyrannical government and instated a new one, the Swarm has been broken and defeated, a new Zerg creature unlike any other is prepared to ascend in the vacuum of the Overmind's death, the Protoss who had reigned undisputed for all of their history were humbled and brought low, the sacred authority of the Conclave was repudiated, the Dark Templar were welcomed back to Aiur, and that planet is also in ruins. None of this is derived from Brood War, it's a difference from the status quo established by the manual and that from the epilogue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Do you also consider Raynor's "comeback" (where did his army come from?) in Eye of the Storm absurd after being crushed in Agent of the Swarm and being somewhat alone in The Hunt for Tassadar? Afterall, like Mengsk, Raynor can only draw from a smaller pool of Terran worlds now and worse, he doesn't have access to other resources like Mengsk.
Yes, of course. Even when I first played StarCraft in 1998 I realised that Raynor's fleet of Battlecruisers was completely ridiculous. It might even be the most insane of them all.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
You haven't articulated exactly what it is but I'm starting to think that what you are railing against is actually similar to what I and the others are railing against in that it's about Mengsk's inherent/potential capability or rather, where the conceit of his capability begins/ends. The difference being that you're starting point is with the notion that the Terran force, such as it is by the end of Sc1, has no real further/future potential making any possibility of Mengsk coming back from any fall of grace at all unrealistic whereas I/the others seem to be starting off with the notion that the Terrans still have some level of inherent/potential capability (by the end of Sc1) that Mengsk can potentially tap into but becomes exhausted and/or closed off over time (throughout BW). Am I right so far? Does this clarify our position a bit more?
Sure.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
An expectation that gets shattered when he loses. We must not forget that there has to be some consequence for his constant failures, of which this is the latest (and last one). Sure he came back twice, but he wasn't exactly in the same position as he was each time he came back. Or is it that irrelevant to you? I don't see how one can disregard that.
I don't see why losing in Omega would cause Mengsk to be deposed. It is by far the least significant of his defeats, being an attack on foreign space from which he retreated with a number of his forces still intact, compared to the devastation of 9/13 Terran worlds or both invasions of Korhal. Losing a battle does not cause you to forfeit your dictatorial authority...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
What power, authority and influence can possibly wield when he's only been "in office" for a few months and still coming to grips with forming a system of government? Not only that, Mengsk has been shown to "buy" things, such as Duke's (he's a general for God's sake) loyalty, due to his propensity to manipulate others by instilling the fear of something comparatively greater as the alternative to his way. He was doing this to Kerrigan and Raynor the whole time and he could do this without the actual power and influence one would associates with those who would be in legitimate positions of power over Terran affairs.
Pretty much all of the UED campaign clearly suggests that Mengsk has the governance of the Dominion in firm control. What power, authority and influence can he offer? Deregulations, subsidies, protectionism, pardons, legal exemptions, hell, he can sell one of Mar Sara's moons if he likes. And of course, you can only be assured that these things will remain binding if Mengsk remains in power.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Besides, we only have Mengsk's words to go by. I know I'm really stretching and going into hypotheticals here when I say this, but these "special interest groups" may have only lent him the fleet in the hopes that he would be killed trying to tackle on the Zerg. He's failed to attack the Zerg on previous attempts through Duke in Sc1 and has been handed military defeats by the UED and Kerrigan in BW. We know that anyone can try their hands at propaganda (the UED for example), so how can we be sure that these groups don't know this and want Mengsk to fall on his sword? Even if Mengsk did destroy the common threat that is the Zerg, it was with their forces. They may take orders from Mengsk for the mission at hand but are they loyal only to Mengsk in other respects? Are we expected to think that there aren't other schemers other than Mengsk out there? Who knows?
Yeah, I'd still need you to demonstrate that these forces were "lent" ;).
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
But we can take this either way. Did the other Terran groups also suffer similar devastating setbacks as Mengsk? Maybe not, if they can lend such a fleet to Mengsk. Even if they were at a lower level prior to BW, they would be on a more equal footing (the gap would've closed considerably at the least) as Mengsk by the end of BW which would have made life difficult for him in order to establish his power over all Terrans, let alone have time to improve on it.
Sure, that might be possible, but if you're claiming a contradiction the burden of proof is on you.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
So what? It also says Raynor disappeared and no-one ever heard of him since but in the 5 years he made a name for himself fighting Mengsk as shown in WoL. It's not the only time something intimated in an epilogue only to be proved false later when Sc1 ends with Protoss victory only for BW to go on and say otherwise. You can't use the later installment as as backward justification for something that could've just as easily turned out to be the opposite at the time (just as BW did to Sc1 in terms of Zerg power).
No, but you're saying that Wings of Liberty contradicts Brood War's final status quo... that the epilogue established this status quo isn't evidence that Wings of Liberty would respect it... but the fact that it did is evidence that there is no contradiction.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
You may have something with regards to the UED's threat assessment of Mengsk but consider the following questions. Can we consider 'the most heavily fortified city in Dominion space' to be relative to what is possible with only four remaining worlds? How much of a threat is Mengsk relative to the UED's main mission of eliminating the aliens? Should we expect the UED to treat all potential threats, no matter how small, seriously? If so, then this doesn't really speak much of Mengsk's power at all. One could say that the UED attacked Mengsk first because it was potentially the easiest task to complete first.
Mengsk was enough of a threat that DuGalle deemed it preferable to destroy the Psi Disrupter rather than risk it falling into Mengsk's hands, and was willing to invade Aiur ahead of schedule for the sole purpose of killing Mengsk. That implies significance.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
You make a good point but that's not the point I was making. I'm not talking about comparisons (which are iffy to do at the best of times), I'm talking only about the Protoss. The force presented by Artanis appears to be one of their biggest showings so far and this is after having both their homeworlds almost expunged of all life! It seems like a miraculous recovery with no apparent reasoning behind it at all. Do you consider this absurd? By the same token, is this scenario any less absurd than Mengsk's situation? You should complain about this, too!
You seem to be have misunderstood the situation. I'm cont complaining about Mengsk's crazy comebacks. As I've said, this is a necessity of the game. However, people complained that Mengsk's comeback in Wings of Liberty demonstrated that the writers never even cared about consistency in StarCraft II and I pointed out that Mengsk bouncing back implausibly is consistent with Brood War. I feel like I'm pretty consistent in all this: I'm not upset about Mengsk's comeback in Wings of Liberty, I'm not upset about his comebacks in Brood War. If you think the Protoss fleet in Omega is a comeback, I'm not upset about it either. I'm upset about the Zerg following StarCraft, but it's not because they came back (as you said, the epilogue's mention of Kerrigan made that comeback pretty much inevitable) but because they were given infinite power (I'm not using 'infinite' as hyperbole, by the way, I have not seen evidence that there are any combinations of factors which can cause the Zerg to lose) in contradiction to their loss. But you're upset about Mengsk's comeback in Wings of Liberty, but not with the others, and I wonder why.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Can you really attribute Mengsk's display of strength in Omega as being solely his own when it really wasn't his to begin with? The fleet is the measure of his power, but it wasn't his in the first place. The conceit is that Mengsk can come from a position of relative weakness to a position of relative strength here due to him bargaining on something that other parties are interested in (that is, the ending of the Zerg threat/killling Kerrigan). They are investing on Mengsk to do something. He fails in this venture which closes this avenue for him to exploit again and also makes his most back-to-basics tactics unreliable now. He gambled big time by making such promises and concessions and he lost, he won't be in a position for a do-over and has nothing else (he can't promise to end the Zerg threat because he outrightly failed and he can't offer Dominion support/whatever because it's in ashes) to put on the table to wager.
Again, I don't understand this assertion that Mengsk's fleet was "not his".
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
How? We've attempted to preface Mengsk's recoveries in BW as being not-absurd to highlight the apparent absurdity of his recovery in WoL.
I don't feel you've accurately described the difference in absurdity between the two. Mengsk gets himself a new fleet in Omega and you assert that it's fine because he basically had to sell his kidneys for it (despite not having evidence for that) but then assert that having trillions to spend on (allegedly) hunting Raynor is absurd. He leverages to resources of four surviving worlds in the aftermath of massive planetary genocides to turn his favourite city into a superfortress in a matter of months and you're fine with that, but then you tell me that 'beautifying' that city in the subsequent five years of peace is absurd. I just don't see the big difference here.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
All right, wall of text incoming.
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Again, Kerrigan has downplayed every threat, including Tassadar, Zeratul, the Templar, the Dark Templar, the UED and the Dominion. In fact, let's compare Kerrigan's dialogue in To Chain the Beast to Mengsk's in Omega:
Kerrigan: You see, Admiral... there are a number of groups in this sector who feel that your involvement here causes certain complications. My associates and I intend to make sure that your reign is short lived.
Mengsk:: I called in a few favors. Made a few concessions. You'd be surprised to see how many special interest groups in this sector want to see you dead.
Kerrigan: Ah, you're referring to your vaunted Psi Disrupter. It won't last you forever, Admiral. Sooner or later, I'll destroy it. Then I'll show you what the Zerg are really capable of.
Mengsk: Just remember that I'll be out there... waiting for you to slip up. Because sooner or later you'll make a mistake. And when you do...
Eerily similar, isn't it? Do you also believe that Kerrigan was in an irrecoverable position at the end of The Iron Fist?
With all due respect, this reasonning is wrong.
Kerrigan doesn't downplays Tassadar as much as she underestimates him. She honestly believed she would beat him, and only after Zasz dies does she realise that she was stronger than that (exact quote, "I shouldn't have understimated him so"). She arguably downplays Zeratul in her "my stare alone" monologue, but in the end she calls him a "formidable opponent" in ZergX09.
And she does not underplay the UED, not until the Overmind has been taken down and she had practically won the war. The dialog you've shown acknowledges that the Psi Disruptor can thwart her plans. She does not deny DuGalle's assertion that the disruptor will make it difficult, her argument is instead "I'll destroy it somehow, some day, and then you will see what happens".
Duran and Kerrigan both call the psi disruptor a "very serious problem", and they are the same characters who correctly assess that the Dominion "base of operation" at Augustgrad and Fenix's army will both fall easily to them. Kerrigan calls the UED forces on Char "the only significant threat to me" (right before she says Arcturus is going to be easy...), and then again in ZergX08 "we can expect the UED to provide us with heavy resistance, but not even they can stand in our way".
Most of your refutation so far boils down to "Kerrigan doesn't mean what she says when she describes her enemy", and the fact that you are arguing against the letter of the briefing already makes the claim that we have "no evidence" problematic. You can refute evidence, but it is not the same as not being given any.
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Yes, let's look at this rag-tag fleet which is on par with the remainder of the UED...
Here's what that fleet looks like... after it has been defeated in Omega. Which means that Mengsk bought himself a much larger fleet in a matter of days or weeks, and still has something comparable
after Omega, in his allegedly irrecoverable state. The fact that it cannot threaten the Zerg is irrelevant, the Zerg are infinitely powerful starting with
Brood War. What you need to demonstrate is that this feat somehow makes him too weak to rule the Dominion.
Hell, if Ragnarok's claim that the Dominion only had 50 Battlecruisers by the invasion of Char in
Wings of Liberty is accurate, then you've clearly inverted which recoveries are sane or not.
I have not been given any evidence that Mengsk's recovery in
Wings of Liberty is less credible than his recoveries in
Brood War. When I provide evidence of the absurdity of Mengsk's recoveries in
Brood War, it gets refuted, and when you provide evidence of the absurdity of Mengsk's recoveries in
Wings of Liberty, I refute it as well.
Once more, with feeling:
You are arguing that, though absurd, the Dominion recovery is not particularly more unbelievable than in Brood War, where you say Mengsk recovered / bounced back time and time again. I argue that Mengsk did not in fact recover, and that the Dominion military becomes significantly weaker after Emperor's Fall, and then weaker again after True Colors.
Mengsk is left with weak forces at the end of Emperor's Fall, as evidenced by Kerrigan's "the only thing I can promise you is that without my help, you will Emperor of your eight-by-eight cell for the rest of your life", and although the phrase can be exaggerated by the irony, Arcturus agrees more than he denies.
Then comes True Colors. After Arcturus has re-conquered Augustgrad, she takes some time to recapitulate and calls the UED the "only significant threat to her". She names Fenix and Raynor as people tht may become problematic later on, as opposed to Mengsk, who she says will be "easy to deal with" without Duke. Then Duran points out that the defenses of both factions will be "relatively easy" to "whittle down" by a surprise attack. This is as opposed to the UED campaign as it can be, where the full might of the UED fleet still considered Mengsk's forces as "substantial" after the previous level has crippled part of his defenses.
Thus, Emperor's Fall has clearly collapsed the Dominion military power, which is far from having recovered by the middle of the Zerg campaign.
Then comes Omega. Kerrigan is alarmed by the size of the army that approaches her stronghold, about a third of which is forces under Arcturus' command. However, this fleet is only partly made of Dominion soldiers: when a surprised Kerrigan answers how Arcturus managed to gather yet another fleet, he explains that plenty of people that were not supporters of the Dominion ("special interest groups", "your new friends") were willing to join him against Kerrigan - indeed, even his arch-nemesis DuGalle is willing to cooperate with him at point. It could be argued that rallying such a coalition would make the Dominion stronger, but these groups still followed their own interests, as evidenced by the fact that Arcturus had to "call in a few favours, make a few concessions". He didn't buy this fleet as much as he was trusted to lead the coalition that might defeat the Zerg. This is also how Kerrigan understands it, and she immediately replies "I'm sorry to have to disappoint your new friends".
Then Arcturus says that he will still be out there and wait for Kerrigan to make a mistake, as does Artanis (which, if I understood correctly, did not make you expect a massive a Protoss buildup after Brood War). The epilogue describes the fleet Arcturus lead as "rag-tag", which is again radically different from the way the UED portrayed the Dominion defenses during the invasion of Korhal. Then the text proceeds to describe how Arcturus is going to "plan the reconstruction of his Terran Dominion", which means exactly "the Dominion has yet to be rebuilt".
Therefore, Arcturus and the Dominion still have not recovered from their defeats at the time of Omega. The fleet Mengsk brings against Kerrigan is a combined effort of Dominion survivors and the various factions that were previously hostile to him, but were convinced by concessions he made to let him lead the battle against their common enemy. Then that battle was lost.
If I had to argue against my own side, a more pertinent argument would be that since the fleet led by the Dominion was not, in fact, an actual Dominion force, then Arcturus' military position compared to other Terran might be better at the end of Omega than it was before the battle. But this is quite different from "Arcturus made insane and unbelievable recoveries all over Brood War".
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by Telenil
WALL OF TEXT.
http://hugelolcdn.com/comments/1386224.gif
I thoroughly entertaining and enlightening dissection of detail, Telenil. :)
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
Visions of Khas
You were supposed to put the part of him being tazered, VoK....
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Telenil
All right, wall of text incoming.
With all due respect, this reasonning is wrong.
Kerrigan doesn't downplays Tassadar as much as she underestimates him. She honestly believed she would beat him, and only after Zasz dies does she realise that she was stronger than that (exact quote, "I shouldn't have understimated him so"). She arguably downplays Zeratul in her "my stare alone" monologue, but in the end she calls him a "formidable opponent" in ZergX09.
And she does not underplay the UED, not until the Overmind has been taken down and she had practically won the war. The dialog you've shown acknowledges that the Psi Disruptor can thwart her plans. She does not deny DuGalle's assertion that the disruptor will make it difficult, her argument is instead "I'll destroy it somehow, some day, and then you will see what happens".
Duran and Kerrigan both call the psi disruptor a "very serious problem", and they are the same characters who correctly assess that the Dominion "base of operation" at Augustgrad and Fenix's army will both fall easily to them. Kerrigan calls the UED forces on Char "the only significant threat to me" (right before she says Arcturus is going to be easy...), and then again in ZergX08 "we can expect the UED to provide us with heavy resistance, but not even they can stand in our way".
Most of your refutation so far boils down to "Kerrigan doesn't mean what she says when she describes her enemy", and the fact that you are arguing against the letter of the briefing already makes the claim that we have "no evidence" problematic. You can refute evidence, but it is not the same as not being given any.
You choose to interpret Mengsk being too dangerous to allow to live as Mengsk not being a threat, and Kerrigan promising that she'll crush the UED as treating them as a threat. And you say I'm arguing against the letter of the briefing? You haven't addressed the similarity of their declarations. I assume that while you are completely fine with taking Kerrigan at her word and I am just being stubborn by doubting her, you'd have issue with taking Mengsk at his word when he promises that he'll be capable of dealing with Kerrigan the moment she slips up? What about when the omniscient narration promises that Mengsk is planning to rebuild the Terran Dominion?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Telenil
Once more, with feeling:
You are arguing that, though absurd, the Dominion recovery is not particularly more unbelievable than in Brood War, where you say Mengsk recovered / bounced back time and time again. I argue that Mengsk did not in fact recover, and that the Dominion military becomes significantly weaker after Emperor's Fall, and then weaker again after True Colors.
Mengsk is left with weak forces at the end of Emperor's Fall, as evidenced by Kerrigan's "the only thing I can promise you is that without my help, you will Emperor of your eight-by-eight cell for the rest of your life", and although the phrase can be exaggerated by the irony, Arcturus agrees more than he denies.
Then comes True Colors. After Arcturus has re-conquered Augustgrad, she takes some time to recapitulate and calls the UED the "only significant threat to her". She names Fenix and Raynor as people tht may become problematic later on, as opposed to Mengsk, who she says will be "easy to deal with" without Duke. Then Duran points out that the defenses of both factions will be "relatively easy" to "whittle down" by a surprise attack. This is as opposed to the UED campaign as it can be, where the full might of the UED fleet still considered Mengsk's forces as "substantial" after the previous level has crippled part of his defenses.
Thus, Emperor's Fall has clearly collapsed the Dominion military power, which is far from having recovered by the middle of the Zerg campaign.
I still can't believe you accuse me of "arguing against the letter of the briefing" and then try to pull this off. The text of the briefing is: "Now that the UED's power base is broken on this world, only their forces on Char pose any significant threat to me." The subject of the sentence is the UED. She is saying that after having eliminated the UED forces on Korhal, the only forces the UED have that can pose a significant threat to her are those on Char. She is not saying that there are no other forces that can threaten her besides the UED, especially not those of her allies, since the very next thing that happens is that Duran changes the subject by bringing up those same allies.
Kerrigan says that without her Mengsk will only be the Emperor of his own cell, and you take that as agreement from Mengsk, ignoring that Mengsk himself said that with time, he would overthrow the UED. But more importantly, you pretend that the fact that after being deposed he is incapable of overcoming the UED without Kerrigan's help is evidence that Mengsk is substantially weaker, ignoring the fact that Mengsk wasn't able to overcome the UED before he was deposed, as evidenced by the fact that he was deposed at all. Thus all you have demonstrated is that being deposed by the UED hasn't made him stronger.
You point out that Kerrigan says Mengsk will be easy to deal with after his army on Korhal is wiped out and Duke is killed, and try to spin that as Kerrigan thinking that Mengsk is easy to deal with before that happens, and ignore the fact that Brood War proves that she was wrong by making Mengsk a threat for her to deal with again in Omega.
You compare the UED considering Mengsk's forces substantial when he is entrenched in Augustgrad to Kerrigan thinking his army can be whittled down with relative ease by stabbing them in the back while they sleep and treat this as evidence of a decrease in power, completely ignoring the situation and forgetting that even after Mengsk was overthrown the UED still call him a considerable threat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Telenil
Then comes Omega. Kerrigan is alarmed by the size of the army that approaches her stronghold, about a third of which is forces under Arcturus' command. However, this fleet is only partly made of Dominion soldiers: when a surprised Kerrigan answers how Arcturus managed to gather yet another fleet, he explains that plenty of people that were not supporters of the Dominion ("special interest groups", "your new friends") were willing to join him against Kerrigan - indeed, even his arch-nemesis DuGalle is willing to cooperate with him at point. It could be argued that rallying such a coalition would make the Dominion stronger, but these groups still followed their own interests, as evidenced by the fact that Arcturus had to "call in a few favours, make a few concessions". He didn't buy this fleet as much as he was trusted to lead the coalition that might defeat the Zerg.
Stop. "Calling in favours" is not synonymous with "temporarily borrow". Neither is "making a few concessions". In fact, one would generally expect the very opposite.
But hey, you want to use that quote? Go ahead. Does Mengsk sound like this was expensive for him? Does it sound like he's run out of favours to call? Does it sound like there are no more concessions to make? No, of course not. He didn't even have to make a lot of concessions. Purchasing this fleet was trivially easy for him. The reason he mentions that a lot of people want to see her dead is because that fact made buying his fleet even easier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Telenil
This is also how Kerrigan understands it, and she immediately replies "I'm sorry to have to disappoint your new friends".
Then Arcturus says that he will still be out there and wait for Kerrigan to make a mistake, as does Artanis (which, if I understood correctly, did not make you expect a massive a Protoss buildup after Brood War). The epilogue describes the fleet Arcturus lead as "rag-tag", which is again radically different from the way the UED portrayed the Dominion defenses during the invasion of Korhal. Then the text proceeds to describe how Arcturus is going to "plan the reconstruction of his Terran Dominion", which means exactly "the Dominion has yet to be rebuilt".
"Rag-tag" means disorganised, eclectic, untidy, etc. Since we know he purchased his fleet from diverse groups, this is not a problem, nor is it evidence of anything. I'm not sure what your point is in saying that the Dominion has yet to be rebuilt, that's not relevant. What is relevant is that it establishes what Mengsk will be doing in the future. And now that the future is out, we know that the epilogue was right.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
"Hatching from eggs" is not a free process, despite what you pretend: "Even the Zerg require Minerals to harden their carapaces and develop strong teeth and bones/The Zerg have adapted to use raw Vespene as a source of nourishment to drive their highly accelerated metabolisms." The Zerg require the same resources Terrans need to build Battlecruisers.
Except those resources are extremely easy to get and can be found on every planet. Humans and Protoss however can't be spawned from minerals.
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She also said "My stare alone would reduce you to ashes". Mengsk, on the other hand, says "Just remember that I'll be out there... waiting for you to slip up, Because sooner or later, you'll make a mistake. And when you do..." Clearly, Mengsk was correct. So again, entirely consistent with Brood War.
Because of the magic "I win" button? How is that an argument? Nobody could have predicted that MacGuffin. Mengsk was getting spanked when Kerrigan invaded his worlds, and she'd have rolled over him easily if not for the artifact.
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If you assume that they started out equal, which is contrary to evidence. The Kel-Morian Combine was brought to heel in the Guild Wars and was never allowed to recover. The Dominion lost more, but they had more to lose.
Germany was brought to heel in WW1. Didn't stop them from being a threat in WW2. One of the richest factions in the sector should be able to not suck so bad. And I never said they started equal.
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Her opinion was wrong. The reality of the invasion make that clear.
"We will lose countless drop pods in the opening moments."
"We're sending millions. If only a fraction get through, it will be enough"
Where were the orbital defenses in BW? I mean, I can keep going, but how exactly can you claim that Korhal was harder to destroy in BW when it was a one-mission ordeal, not an entire campaign?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
I have not been given any evidence that Mengsk's recovery in Wings of Liberty is less credible than his recoveries in Brood War. When I provide evidence of the absurdity of Mengsk's recoveries in Brood War, it gets refuted, and when you provide evidence of the absurdity of Mengsk's recoveries in Wings of Liberty, I refute it as well.
You have not provided any evidence that Mengsk made any recoveries in BW.
See how easy that was? From my point of view, we're the ones providing all the evidence, and you're handwaiving it away while providing none of your own. How about we stop accusing each other of not having evidence? :P
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What about when the omniscient narration promises that Mengsk is planning to rebuild the Terran Dominion?
He can do that. He can go back to Sons of Korhal status. But he can't domineer over all other factions in SC2...
Personally I've always treated his desire to rebuild the Dominion after BW as one of his megalomaniac delusions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Stop. "Calling in favours" is not synonymous with "temporarily borrow". Neither is "making a few concessions". In fact, one would generally expect the very opposite.
But hey, you want to use that quote? Go ahead. Does Mengsk sound like this was expensive for him? Does it sound like he's run out of favours to call? Does it sound like there are no more concessions to make? No, of course not. He didn't even have to make a lot of concessions. Purchasing this fleet was trivially easy for him. The reason he mentions that a lot of people want to see her dead is because that fact made buying his fleet even easier.
"Losing a battle does not cause you to forfeit your dictatorial authority..."
Tell me the last time a dictator had to "call in favors" or "make concessions" to use his military. Mengsk has lost control of his government and now has to bribe desperate "diverse groups".
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Brood War proves that she was wrong by making Mengsk a threat for her to deal with again in Omega.
No, he's not. The bulk of Kerrigan's forces were stated to be on the surface of Char. Again, it was a 3v1 against one Cerebrate, who won anyway. At no point was Mengsk a threat. Same with the UED and Protoss, both of whom just got decimated. It's also a fallacy to say that Mengsk's fleet was as large as the other two factions in Omega. That's purely an argument from gameplay and even if it was true, the fleets aren't Dominion, so you can in no way prove that he "recovered".
UED - don't have any troops to draw on in the k-sector. The defeat of their fleet spelled the end for them.
Protoss - their military force is depleted, but they have multiple worlds to draw from (presumably), and a recovery by SC2 is possible. Kind of like if you're playing a game of SC2, just lost your army in a huge battle, but are sitting on 3 bases ready to churn out a bunch of units from your warp gate.
Moria/Umoja - have been staying out of the fighting for all we know, and are in the best position to take advantage.
Mengsk - his fledgling government just failed miserably. He was just handed multiple losses. The whole reason for his Dominion's existence and his rise to power (protecting you from the scary aliens) is now utterly bunk.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Except those resources are extremely easy to get and can be found on every planet. Humans and Protoss however can't be spawned from minerals.
Then they'll just have more Battlecruisers and fewer Marines, since the resources necessary to make Battlecruisers are extremely easy to get and can be found on every planet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Because of the magic "I win" button? How is that an argument? Nobody could have predicted that MacGuffin. Mengsk was getting spanked when Kerrigan invaded his worlds, and she'd have rolled over him easily if not for the artifact.
Exactly my point. Just as you don't take Mengsk's word for it, I don't take Kerrigan's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Germany was brought to heel in WW1. Didn't stop them from being a threat in WW2. One of the richest factions in the sector should be able to not suck so bad. And I never said they started equal.
Then provide evidence that the Kel-Morian Combine was a threat to Mengsk by the end of Brood War.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
"We will lose countless drop pods in the opening moments."
"We're sending millions. If only a fraction get through, it will be enough"
Where were the orbital defenses in BW? I mean, I can keep going, but how exactly can you claim that Korhal was harder to destroy in BW when it was a one-mission ordeal, not an entire campaign?
Invading Korhal was a 2-mission deal in The Iron Fist (out of eight, or 25%) and a single-mission deal in Queen of Blades (out of ten, or 10%). It was a three-mission deal in Heart of the Swarm, but one of those was a self-imposed handicap, so it doesn't count. That leaves two missions, including the one because Mengsk pulls a magical deus ex machina out of his arse (I'm not counting destroying the Psi Disrupter as part of the invasion for Queen of Blades because it wasn't actually on Korhal and might be considered as part of the overall conflict against the UED) out of twenty (I'm not counting the evolution missions, because I am nothing if not fair) for... also 10%. Equally difficult as claiming it from the UED, much easier than taking it from Mengsk the first time, by that chosen metric.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
You have not provided any evidence that Mengsk made any recoveries in BW.
See how easy that was? From my point of view, we're the ones providing all the evidence, and you're handwaiving it away while providing none of your own. How about we stop accusing each other of not having evidence? :P
Did you really think I'd allow you to come into power again? [...] I think I'll leave you here, Arcturus, among the ashes of your precious Dominion. I want you to live to see me rise to power.
How'd you manage to scrape up your new fleet?
I'm assuming that you mean I haven't demonstrated that Mengsk has made implausible recoveries in Brood War (because otherwise you're just flat out wrong), in which case you haven't provided evidence that he has made an implausible recovery in Wings of Liberty, and we're still left on an even footing. Because from my point of view, I'm the one providing all the evidence and you're just handwaving it away while producing none of your own.
However, you are the one asserting a contradiction. You have the burden of evidence. I am completely fine with asserting that neither Mengsk's recoveries in Brood War or Wings of Liberty are problematic, unless proven otherwise. Which, in dealing with a work of fiction, is the default assumption.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
He can do that. He can go back to Sons of Korhal status. But he can't domineer over all other factions in SC2...
Personally I've always treated his desire to rebuild the Dominion after BW as one of his megalomaniac delusions.
Or he can not. We don't assume a contradiction until proven otherwise. For example, I don't assume that because Tassadar "could" have died during the battle of New Gettysburg, his future appearances contradict established lore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
"Losing a battle does not cause you to forfeit your dictatorial authority..."
Tell me the last time a dictator had to "call in favors" or "make concessions" to use his military. Mengsk has lost control of his government and now has to bribe desperate "diverse groups".
Hell, why stop at dictators? I can name you democratic governments that will make deals with military industrialists. And they aren't collapsing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
No, he's not.
Yes, he is. It happened because she couldn't commit the entirety of her forces to the battle, and he only provided a third of the forces to the battle, which is irrelevant: it still demonstrates that she was wrong when she said Mengsk would be easy to deal with. And it also proves that she was wrong when she said she wouldn't allow him to recover.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Then they'll just have more Battlecruisers and fewer Marines, since the resources necessary to make Battlecruisers are extremely easy to get and can be found on every planet.
Are we really having this conversation? :P
Zerg don't have to pay their workers to mine minerals. Zerg don't have to worry about the workers rebelling or their conditions. Battlecruisers require a crew. Etc. etc. The zergs' military production is far more sustainable.
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Exactly my point. Just as you don't take Mengsk's word for it, I don't take Kerrigan's.
Except Mengsk never said "I am going to rebuild the Dominion and lord over all other factions". He uttered a vague threat of "I'm going to get you back one day!" Whereas Kerrigan said "let's be real. this will be a very tough fight".
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Then provide evidence that the Kel-Morian Combine was a threat to Mengsk by the end of Brood War.
"The Morians started off with their own supercarrier of people in the koprulu sector, and challenged the Confederacy during the Guild Wars.
The Confederacy was destroyed by Mengsk's psi emitters (9 of the 13 core worlds got wasted). That alone is enough to justify my argument. But then Mengsk got trashed by the UED and the Morians went back to working for themselves. Then Korhal got wrecked by Kerrigan. Then Kerrigan destroyed all of Mengsk's assets on Augustgrad again. Then Mengsk lost the puny remainders of whatever he had left at Omega.
In the meantime, Moria was attacked once for a mineral raid. So, tell me, who sounds like they're in a better position?"
^---it doesn't get any more blatant than that. If you think it's subjective, fine, just say so. But stop saying there's no evidence.
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Did you really think I'd allow you to come into power again? [...] I think I'll leave you here, Arcturus, among the ashes of your precious Dominion. I want you to live to see me rise to power.
Yeah so? He might have come back into power if she left him there unharmed, which she didn't. Which proves that he shouldn't be in power during SC2. The Dominion is in ashes. This is evidence for my position, not yours.
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How'd you manage to scrape up your new fleet?
It's his fleet but it's not the Dominion's fleet. If it was the Dominion's fleet he'd be able to summon it up like he's been doing all game, not have to make favors and concessions. Even you can agree that this is damn solid evidence that the Dominion is militarily bankrupt during Omega, yes?
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I'm assuming that you mean I haven't demonstrated that Mengsk has made implausible recoveries in Brood War (because otherwise you're just flat out wrong), in which case you haven't provided evidence that he has made an implausible recovery in Wings of Liberty, and we're still left on an even footing. Because from my point of view, I'm the one providing all the evidence and you're just handwaving it away while producing none of your own.
If you want to ignore everything I wrote here sure: http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthrea...l=1#post182585
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However, you are the one asserting a contradiction. You have the burden of evidence. I am completely fine with asserting that neither Mengsk's recoveries in Brood War or Wings of Liberty are problematic, unless proven otherwise. Which, in dealing with a work of fiction, is the default assumption.
Not true. You previously stated "If you want to say that Mengsk's recovery makes no sense, then I'll be right there agreeing with you. If you want to say it's inconsistent with Brood War, that's a different issue, because it is a problem established by Brood War". We've been asking you to explain what makes it consistent with BW, but you've failed to demonstrate that he made any miraculous recoveries in BW. In fact, you said "You've only demonstrated that Mengsk was weaker at the end of Brood War than he was at the beginning."
So...what exactly is your point? You agree with us about Wings of Liberty, but you claim that there's a double standard because the same thing goes on in BW itself. That would mean you think there's a contradiction in BW and that therefore the burden of evidence is on you. Not that that means anything. Burden of proof doesn't mean that one side is obligated to churn out facts and evidence until the other side finally finds something that it likes. The burden of proof shifts anytime something new is presented.
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Hell, why stop at dictators? I can name you democratic governments that will make deals with military industrialists. And they aren't collapsing.
The arms industry doesn't sell troops.
Look, the logic can only go one of two ways here. Either the Dominion is so broke that it can't afford to pay for arms, or it can't afford to muster up troops. Otherwise, I'd love to hear your explanation for why Mengsk had to make concessions/favors instead of just ordering the Dominion fleet around like he's been doing all game. Saying "Everyone may have been beaten and broken by Kerrigan, but Mengsk is still the one-eyed man in the land of the blind" is not an answer. It's you conceding to the fact that the fleet doesn't belong to the Dominion.
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Yes, he is. It happened because she couldn't commit the entirety of her forces to the battle, and he only provided a third of the forces to the battle, which is irrelevant: it still demonstrates that she was wrong when she said Mengsk would be easy to deal with. And it also proves that she was wrong when she said she wouldn't allow him to recover.
He was easy to deal with. One of her subordinates took care of that problem along with 2 others in one swoop. Even if the Cerebrate lost, it would have been nothing more than an inconvenience.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Are we really having this conversation? :P
Zerg don't have to pay their workers to mine minerals. Zerg don't have to worry about the workers rebelling or their conditions. Battlecruisers require a crew. Etc. etc. The zergs' military production is far more sustainable.
Oh please, what makes you think the Dominion does better? I'm more than sure a lot of the workers Mengsk employs is nothing more than slavery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Except Mengsk never said "I am going to rebuild the Dominion and lord over all other factions". He uttered a vague threat of "I'm going to get you back one day!" Whereas Kerrigan said "let's be real. this will be a very tough fight".
Which is relatively vague and can be open to interpretation. Besides, if Mengsk didn't rebuild the Dominion, how WOULD he get her back someday?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Yeah so? He might have come back into power if she left him there unharmed, which she didn't. Which proves that he shouldn't be in power during SC2. The Dominion is in ashes. This is evidence for my position, not yours.
Kerrigan left Mengsk unharmed on Korhal itself to humiliate him. I'm not even sure Mengsk was actually WITH the fleet in the Omega battle....
Sure, I too agree Mengsk shouldn't have been in power. After those disasters, you can only manipulate the people so far. Mengsk continued to insist he was the only hope for humanity and if he died, the terrans in the sector wouldn't survive. But by the end of the Brood War, you'd think the majority of the Dominion people would have at least chosen to take that chance.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Telenil calls his a wall-of-text? He's got nothing on me. :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
As I pointed out elsewhere, the last things we hear about Mengsk in Brood War is that he's promising Kerrigan that this isn't over and he'll get her next time, and the epilogue narration promises that Mengsk would rebuild the Dominion, so sure, I was pretty much expecting Mengsk to continue being the leader of the most powerful human faction.
You were expecting this still even after BW upended what you thought was Protoss' victory at the end of Sc1?
As to you referencing "the last things we hear", I made a point about this about Raynor that you dismissed. He made promises and said stuff too you know... we know how well that turned out.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
The problem with the ending of Brood War with regards to making Mengsk weak is that there's nobody to make him weaker than.
This I can support you on. However, that really isn't what I and the others are saying. Mengsk is becoming weaker in comparison to his previous comeback when you look at the context at each of his comebacks. Telenil has detailed that very well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
The UED gets completely annihilated by Kerrigan, but I at no point figured that Mengsk and Artanis would be weakened to irrelevance in the sequel. There's no one else to take their place.
I think most people would disagree here. This is actually a criticism levelled at BW in that by the end of it, it strongly intimates that all forces except Kerrigan are weakened into irrelevance and will eventually be wiped out altogther. It is also partly why WoL seems artificially propped and stilted in it's setting because it has to contrive a reason to prevent the inevitable outcome that BW's ending pushed/suggests (ie: all non-Zerg are effed).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
But so long as he's still the strongest Terran around, there's no reason to remove him as the head of the Dominion (especially since he serves such a valuable narrative role as an antagonist commanding one of the game's three races - this is something that looks to become especially problematic after Heart of the Swarm with Good Prince Valerian and Hearty Kerrigan and Artanis commanding the three races).
I get this, but by doing this we are relegating the whole of BW as being pointless because it whitewashes any impact the UED could have had. On reflection, I've gotten used to Mengsk's representation as being somewhat incompetent in BW but only as long as this characterisation was earnt and had consequence. By having things still go his way despite him actually being incompetent than he lets on is a slap in the face. It's also the reason why in Sc2, he is such a terribly conceived villain that it feels unjustified to waste two installments on him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
That's why I compare it to Mengsk's rebounds in Brood War - every time he pops back up, he needs to have the power to threaten the player, even if a few days or weeks ago he was 'abandoned in the ashes of his empire', now he's commanding a massive fleet.
I understand the conceit for this, but I fail to see why Mengsk has to be the villain of Sc2 given his track record.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Well, the epilogue of StarCraft is pretty clearly saying that the Zerg on Aiur have been defeated, but it's true that in that first mission they don't yet appear to be infinitely powerful. But the rest of The Stand does that.
Right, so there was some acknowledgement that the Protoss victory came at a cost before the retcon took full affect. We don't even have the privilege of that in WoL. Mengsk from Sc1 can easily transition into his Sc2 representation without so much of a problem. The reason it is a problem, because like it or not, BW did happen and stuff happened to Mengsk in BW.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
The comparison to the original StarCraft is invalid.
I was being somewhat facetious there, because I know that there really was massive changes in status quo. However, I'm pretty sure you relegate BW as being worthless for the same facetious logic I used (the UED came and went like a fart in the wind), when there was ample opportunity for status quo changing events. One of which being the high possibility of Mengsk becoming irrelevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Yes, of course. Even when I first played StarCraft in 1998 I realised that Raynor's fleet of Battlecruisers was completely ridiculous. It might even be the most insane of them all.
And yet we have WoL which starts off trying to explain that Raynor had been a thorn in Mengsk's side for years and only recently has he been losing. Can we use the same justification for Raynor's comeback in Sc1 to explain his reapperance in WoL? At what point does this become untenable for you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
I don't see why losing in Omega would cause Mengsk to be deposed. It is by far the least significant of his defeats, being an attack on foreign space from which he retreated with a number of his forces still intact, compared to the devastation of 9/13 Terran worlds or both invasions of Korhal. Losing a battle does not cause you to forfeit your dictatorial authority...
It does when it shake the foundations of one's already threadbare authority. You have to take into account, he has no Dominion to help repay damages and he has lost further face/reputation. Sure, you can't measure something as reputation but at this point, that's all Mengsk has and it's been tarnished. He is now in the most vulnerable part of his life than at any other previous time. Before he was the leader of the Sons of Korhal he enjoyed and could make use of anonymity to build his coalitions but now, he's overexposed and with his pants down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Pretty much all of the UED campaign clearly suggests that Mengsk has the governance of the Dominion in firm control. What power, authority and influence can he offer? Deregulations, subsidies, protectionism, pardons, legal exemptions, hell, he can sell one of Mar Sara's moons if he likes. And of course, you can only be assured that these things will remain binding if Mengsk remains in power.
How can he realistically offer those when, at the time, he has no empire/Dominion? There's nothing against him promising and lying to those special interest groups that he can impart such privileges later, but he is not, at that specific time, in the position to give them this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Yeah, I'd still need you to demonstrate that these forces were "lent" ;).
As soon as you provide evidence that the force he commands in Omega is actually representative of the Dominion. :o
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Sure, that might be possible, but if you're claiming a contradiction the burden of proof is on you.
Claiming implausibility possibly, not contradiction. Afterall, you and the others have used the same "evidence" to reach different conclusions - so much for evidence when it's up to interpretation.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
No, but you're saying that Wings of Liberty contradicts Brood War's final status quo... that the epilogue established this status quo isn't evidence that Wings of Liberty would respect it... but the fact that it did is evidence that there is no contradiction.
I'm trying to point out that using the epilogue as some undisputed/omniscient piece of evidence is shaky at best. That Mengsk goes off to rebuild the Dominion doesn't necessarily mean he can much like how Raynor disappeared didn't necessarily mean he did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Mengsk was enough of a threat that DuGalle deemed it preferable to destroy the Psi Disrupter rather than risk it falling into Mengsk's hands, and was willing to invade Aiur ahead of schedule for the sole purpose of killing Mengsk. That implies significance.
Of course Mengsk is significant. They're treating him seriously but only because it's the first part of their plan. His significance took on another dimension when someone unlooked for happened to helped Mengsk escape at the eleventh hour. What was just a preparatory mission to get rid of a potential thorn in their side before the main event of subduing the alien became something unexpectedly more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
However, people complained that Mengsk's comeback in Wings of Liberty demonstrated that the writers never even cared about consistency in StarCraft II and I pointed out that Mengsk bouncing back implausibly is consistent with Brood War.
That's because it's debatable that his comebacks in BW are implausible. Following from that, it's debatable that Mengsk can keeping continuing to plausibly comeback.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
But you're upset about Mengsk's comeback in Wings of Liberty, but not with the others, and I wonder why.
One, because there is, in the absence of hard evidence, anecdotal evidence to suggest that Mengsk's comebacks in BW came with an ever increasing cost that he would be hard pressed to pay. My stance is a little bit softer than the other guys because I've mentioned earlier and elsewhere that I have no real qualms about Mengsk coming back either just that there is no acknowledgement of the hardship and continuation of ramifications from BW. And two, I haven't had the chance to complain about the other ones yet. :p
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Again, I don't understand this assertion that Mengsk's fleet was "not his".
Someone who has the power to give someone else something does not mean that the person who was granted that thing has more power than original person who gave it to them in the first place. Especially so when the person doing the asking has nothing to give but promises in return.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Mengsk gets himself a new fleet in Omega and you assert that it's fine because he basically had to sell his kidneys for it (despite not having evidence for that) but then assert that having trillions to spend on (allegedly) hunting Raynor is absurd
No. He is able to wrangle the support of others out of nothing but his words because that's the conceit of his character. There is consistency there because he does this to Duke afterall. The price he pays is only once he loses the fleet because it destroys the conceit of his ability to sweet-talk anyone now. The spending of trillions is only absurd in the context that there's a discrepancy in the amount of power he has between his fall from grace in BW and in WoL where he now can spend so much on a triviality which implies he can probably spend quadrillions and more on things of real import to the Empire. It's like trying to explain the huge differences in population between Sc1 and Sc2 - it's actually quite possible but highly improbable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
He leverages to resources of four surviving worlds in the aftermath of massive planetary genocides to turn his favourite city into a superfortress in a matter of months and you're fine with that, but then you tell me that 'beautifying' that city in the subsequent five years of peace is absurd. I just don't see the big difference here.
Not sure if I did say anything about turning his world into a superfortress really nor really thought about that being fine. I didn't even consider Augustgrad in BW to be that much of a deal probably because of the limitations of the game showing his "fortress" to be not much different/larger than any other outpost represented in other previous missions. The sparseness of that and the world itself being some nuclear desert/hostile looking didn't really help convey how powerful he was or that the world was occupied by any substantial civilian element. Even if it were not that, Korhal would have been the original base of his Sons of Korhal organisation, so there would've been some standing military force being bolstered by the remaining disparate Confederate troops that looked to him for guidance. The sparseness of Korhal there then becoming an ecumenopolis and peaceful centre of a largely harmonious/unified Terran presence in 5 years speaks of enormous, unheard of power and capability beyond what was even thought possible. Yeah, Rome wasn't built in a day... just five years is all. :p
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
I am the undisputed King of walls of texts. </self-deprecating humor>
Unfortunately, I'm only an observer in this discussion. Keep up the work guys.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
You choose to interpret Mengsk being too dangerous to allow to live as Mengsk not being a threat, and Kerrigan promising that she'll crush the UED as treating them as a threat. And you say I'm arguing against the letter of the briefing? You haven't addressed the similarity of their declarations. I assume that while you are completely fine with taking Kerrigan at her word and I am just being stubborn by doubting her, you'd have issue with taking Mengsk at his word when he promises that he'll be capable of dealing with Kerrigan the moment she slips up? What about when the omniscient narration promises that Mengsk is planning to rebuild the Terran Dominion?
Mengsk's forces (I assume you mean that since she does leave Arcturus unharmed) are not "too dangerous", they "might be dangerous". About as much as Fenix's forces could be. Kerrigan is not taking any chance, and besides, she wanted to screw Arcturus no matter what, as revenge for getting left behind on Tarsonis.
I'm not sure of what you are trying to prove with these epilogues. Kerrigan had suffered a serious setback at the end of episode 5, so did Mengsk at the end of episode 6, and both made a threat before fleeing (this is also true of Artanis). There is a similarity in that sense, but since Brood War ends with Mengsk's words, the parallel could only be relevant for the recovery he makes before Starcraft 2, not the alledged unbelievable recoveries he made in Brood War.
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I still can't believe you accuse me of "arguing against the letter of the briefing" and then try to pull this off. The text of the briefing is: "Now that the UED's power base is broken on this world, only their forces on Char pose any significant threat to me." The subject of the sentence is the UED. She is saying that after having eliminated the UED forces on Korhal, the only forces the UED have that can pose a significant threat to her are those on Char. She is not saying that there are no other forces that can threaten her besides the UED, especially not those of her allies, since the very next thing that happens is that Duran changes the subject by bringing up those same allies.
Arguable. The phrase can also be taken as "now that we have destroyed the UED here, the only thing that really threatens me is their forces on Char". Since the rest of the briefing mentions it won't be difficult to take both allies with a surprise attack, I stand by my understanding.
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Kerrigan says that without her Mengsk will only be the Emperor of his own cell, and you take that as agreement from Mengsk, ignoring that Mengsk himself said that with time, he would overthrow the UED. But more importantly, you pretend that the fact that after being deposed he is incapable of overcoming the UED without Kerrigan's help is evidence that Mengsk is substantially weaker, ignoring the fact that Mengsk wasn't able to overcome the UED before he was deposed, as evidenced by the fact that he was deposed at all. Thus all you have demonstrated is that being deposed by the UED hasn't made him stronger.
Thus it made him weaker. Or are you arguing that being deposed and losing your heavily defended capital city was a negligible loss?
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You point out that Kerrigan says Mengsk will be easy to deal with after his army on Korhal is wiped out and Duke is killed, and try to spin that as Kerrigan thinking that Mengsk is easy to deal with before that happens, and ignore the fact that Brood War proves that she was wrong by making Mengsk a threat for her to deal with again in Omega.
Duke and Fenix together were defeated with "relative ease", and Mengsk is easy without Duke. So yes, it does mean that the threat the Dominion posed before before True Colors ranks at "relative ease".
What is true is Kerrigan understimated Arcturus as a person, in that she did not expect him to be able to rally a fleet at all. But she felt threatened by the combined forces of the three fleets, not by Arcturus' forces particularly. Omega put the Zerg against virtually every other faction left in the Sector, and they won anyway. What do you think the Dominion military alone could have done at this point?
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You compare the UED considering Mengsk's forces substantial when he is entrenched in Augustgrad to Kerrigan thinking his army can be whittled down with relative ease by stabbing them in the back while they sleep and treat this as evidence of a decrease in power, completely ignoring the situation and forgetting that even after Mengsk was overthrown the UED still call him a considerable threat.
When the UED moved against Aiur, Mengsk commanded a single battlecruiser fleeing from Korhal at top speed. They were moving to intercept Mengsk specifically, not his (at the time) non-existent army. The notion that emperor Arcturus Mengsk, as a person, is a danger to the UED is evidenced by the fact that DuGalle makes a point of executing him publicly, even after they have captured him. Which kind of make sense: unlike Kerrigan, the UED cared about politics.
What you are showing is that the UED considered Arcturus Mengsk could cause trouble even without an empire. Kerrigan didn't, and Omega shows that the UED probably made a better judgement. Which is an interesting point, that particular thought had never occured to me before.
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Stop. "Calling in favours" is not synonymous with "temporarily borrow". Neither is "making a few concessions". In fact, one would generally expect the very opposite.
But hey, you want to use that quote? Go ahead. Does Mengsk sound like this was expensive for him? Does it sound like he's run out of favours to call? Does it sound like there are no more concessions to make? No, of course not. He didn't even have to make a lot of concessions.
Essentially correct, with the caveat that Arcturus also "called in favours". I'm not a native speaker, but I understand this as "you give me something now and I will do something for you later", like getting in debt, only not with money. If this is the case, it does seem to imply that he was a bit short on actual compensations.
In any case, the point is not that the favors were costly, it is that he had to make concessions at all - as opposed to ordering people around or giving money. He couldn't intimidate or coerce these people into joining him. Besides, as Kerrigan understands the situation, people are going to be disappointed, which supports the idea that Arcturus was given the fleet for this mission specifically.
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"Rag-tag" means disorganised, eclectic, untidy, etc. Since we know he purchased his fleet from diverse groups, this is not a problem, nor is it evidence of anything. I'm not sure what your point is in saying that the Dominion has yet to be rebuilt, that's not relevant. What is relevant is that it establishes what Mengsk will be doing in the future. And now that the future is out, we know that the epilogue was right.
So if we agree that Mengsk got his fleet from a number of different groups, that it wasn't so expensive to get, and that the Dominion had yet to be rebuilt, how is the period between True Colors and Omega an unbelievable recovery? At no point did his actions require a large empire or vast amounts of ressources.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Are we really having this conversation? :P
Eh, let's not :D.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Except Mengsk never said "I am going to rebuild the Dominion and lord over all other factions". He uttered a vague threat of "I'm going to get you back one day!" Whereas Kerrigan said "let's be real. this will be a very tough fight".
Kerrigan never said that this was a tougher fight than the last time she invaded five years ago. In fact, she also said "Let's be real. This will be a very tough fight." that time as well: "But remember that we're up against one of the most heavily defended planets in the sector. Laying siege to Korhal won't be easy."
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
"The Morians started off with their own supercarrier of people in the koprulu sector, and challenged the Confederacy during the Guild Wars.
The Confederacy was destroyed by Mengsk's psi emitters (9 of the 13 core worlds got wasted). That alone is enough to justify my argument. But then Mengsk got trashed by the UED and the Morians went back to working for themselves. Then Korhal got wrecked by Kerrigan. Then Kerrigan destroyed all of Mengsk's assets on Augustgrad again. Then Mengsk lost the puny remainders of whatever he had left at Omega.
In the meantime, Moria was attacked once for a mineral raid. So, tell me, who sounds like they're in a better position?"
^---it doesn't get any more blatant than that. If you think it's subjective, fine, just say so. But stop saying there's no evidence.
You show that they started off at the same strength level, but that's irrelevant because we know they don't stay at the same strength level. We know that "In the decade since the end of the Guild Wars, the oppressive Terran Confederacy has stood unchallenged in its supremacy over colonial space."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
It's his fleet but it's not the Dominion's fleet. If it was the Dominion's fleet he'd be able to summon it up like he's been doing all game, not have to make favors and concessions. Even you can agree that this is damn solid evidence that the Dominion is militarily bankrupt during Omega, yes?
See, this is the point I really don't get with you guys. Why do you think it's not his fleet (or a Dominion fleet)? Because he's had to make sacrifices to get it? What does that have to do with anything? He had to make sacrifices to get his Dominion in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
You seem fine with ignoring the evidence I present.
Mengsk's Dominion in Brood War was founded on four surviving planets after nine others were lost to alien invasions, and he had a handful of months to build his empire.
Mengsk's Dominion in Wings of Liberty was founded on three surviving planets after ten others were lost to alien invasions, and he had over four years to build his empire.
There's no way one planet is a better deal than four additional years in that situation. There's no way that a single planet is worth the difference in time in that situation. And if you include the retcons that give Mengsk a whole lot more planets to deal with, then the value of a single one decreases even more. If the Terran systems were incapable of recovering on three planets, there's no way Mengsk could build mighty empire in a few months off off four. So you see, entirely consistent.
Mengsk is abandoned "in the ashes of his precious empire" not allowed to ever recover again, and within the span of weeks he's effortlessly commanding one of the most powerful military forces in the Sector. I call that a recovery. But you try to excuse it by claiming that it's not really "his" army, even though everyone in the game calls it such, including the omniscient narrator. You don't have any reason for that, except that you don't want to accept the fact that Mengsk made a ridiculous recovery in no time at all.
The epilogue tells us that Mengsk is going to be rebuilding his Terran Dominion, Wings of Liberty shows us that Brood War was entirely correct in claiming that, and you say this is an inconsistency?
Meanwhile, I've already read the post you linked to when you linked to it two posts ago. You're just building a narrative. You don't have any evidence that Mengsk was in an irrecoverable position at the end of Brood War. You don't have any evidence that anyone could or would supplant him. You just prove that the Dominion suffered a lot in Brood War and from there jump to your conclusion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Not true. You previously stated "If you want to say that Mengsk's recovery makes no sense, then I'll be right there agreeing with you. If you want to say it's inconsistent with Brood War, that's a different issue, because it is a problem established by Brood War". We've been asking you to explain what makes it consistent with BW, but you've failed to demonstrate that he made any miraculous recoveries in BW. In fact, you said "You've only demonstrated that Mengsk was weaker at the end of Brood War than he was at the beginning."
So...what exactly is your point? You agree with us about Wings of Liberty, but you claim that there's a double standard because the same thing goes on in BW itself. That would mean you think there's a contradiction in BW and that therefore the burden of evidence is on you. Not that that means anything. Burden of proof doesn't mean that one side is obligated to churn out facts and evidence until the other side finally finds something that it likes. The burden of proof shifts anytime something new is presented.
Yes, the recoveries make no sense, but that's not problematic to me. War RTS games require the factions to have powerful armies. It's a similar issue with the Mira Han missions, or Raynor's fleet of Battlecruisers in Eye of the Storm. The only way Mengsk recovery would be problematic to me is if Brood War indicated that he could not recover (as happened in True Colors and was then contradicted in Omega) or reverted a defeat into a victory (as happened in the battle of Aiur between StarCraft and Brood War). But there's no evidence that Mengsk is in an irrecoverable position at the end of Brood War. In fact, he appears to be in a much better position than he was after True Colors, from which he actually did recover. In the one, he was abandoned among the ashes, in the other he still had his crippled fleet. In the one, Kerrigan promised she would not let him recover, in the other Mengsk is already planing his recovery and Kerrigan has retreated the Swarm to Char and allowed him a reprieve. Things are looking up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
The arms industry doesn't sell troops.
Neither do salvage dumps, which is where Kerrigan claimed Mengsk must have found his miraculous fleet. It's the armament that was a surprise, not the people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Look, the logic can only go one of two ways here. Either the Dominion is so broke that it can't afford to pay for arms, or it can't afford to muster up troops. Otherwise, I'd love to hear your explanation for why Mengsk had to make concessions/favors instead of just ordering the Dominion fleet around like he's been doing all game. Saying "Everyone may have been beaten and broken by Kerrigan, but Mengsk is still the one-eyed man in the land of the blind" is not an answer. It's you conceding to the fact that the fleet doesn't belong to the Dominion.
Um, no? How is saying that Mengsk is still stronger than the other Terrans "conceding that the fleet doesn't belong to the Dominion"? This isn't complicated, Mengsk had to buy himself a new fleet, fast. He did so, using his authority and influence as the most powerful Terran in the Sector.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
He was easy to deal with. One of her subordinates took care of that problem along with 2 others in one swoop. Even if the Cerebrate lost, it would have been nothing more than an inconvenience.
It would have been pretty bad for Kerrigan if they killed her, I feel. Back then she couldn't endlessly reincarnate.
But if you want to pretend that the writers at Blizzard wrote the climactic battle of the game in which all of Kerrigan's greatest foes ally against her in a way where this was going to be easy to deal with, then I have no idea why you complain about the writing in StarCraft II. That's something phenomenally basic to screw up.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Telenil calls his a wall-of-text? He's got nothing on me. :D
I'm replying to you and Gradius both in the same post. Fear me :D.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
You were expecting this still even after BW upended what you thought was Protoss' victory at the end of Sc1?
As to you referencing "the last things we hear", I made a point about this about Raynor that you dismissed. He made promises and said stuff too you know... we know how well that turned out.
Yeah, but just because some of the narrative in StarCraft gets retconned doesn't mean that the parts which aren't retconned should have been retconned... that way lies madness.
Also, if you want to argue that we can't trust any of the text of any of the games because some of it gets retconned, what are we even arguing about? :P.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
This I can support you on. However, that really isn't what I and the others are saying. Mengsk is becoming weaker in comparison to his previous comeback when you look at the context at each of his comebacks. Telenil has detailed that very well.
Yes, but in Brood War, those are comebacks from successive defeats in the span of a single month. If he can achieve all that within just weeks, are you really telling me that what he achieved in the five years leading to Wings of Liberty is that incredible? He negotiated himself an Omega fleet in days!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I think most people would disagree here. This is actually a criticism levelled at BW in that by the end of it, it strongly intimates that all forces except Kerrigan are weakened into irrelevance and will eventually be wiped out altogther. It is also partly why WoL seems artificially propped and stilted in it's setting because it has to contrive a reason to prevent the inevitable outcome that BW's ending pushed/suggests (ie: all non-Zerg are effed).
Well, I agree that all non-Zerg are effed by the end of Brood War, but that's more a problem of the Zerg being retconned to infinite power rather than the other factions being weakened to irrelevance. The end of Brood War doesn't make it look like they're going to be irrelevant when dealing with non-infinitely powerful Zerg factions, is what I meant. Brood War itself promised a sequel through Dark Origins and Kerrigan's feeling that a great threat loomed over the horizon and that her victory was hollow and there were trials yet to come. That's why the epilogue has every faction rebuilding, so that they could be relevant again when the sequel came. I felt that intention was pretty clear, but maybe I'm wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I get this, but by doing this we are relegating the whole of BW as being pointless because it whitewashes any impact the UED could have had. On reflection, I've gotten used to Mengsk's representation as being somewhat incompetent in BW but only as long as this characterisation was earnt and had consequence. By having things still go his way despite him actually being incompetent than he lets on is a slap in the face. It's also the reason why in Sc2, he is such a terribly conceived villain that it feels unjustified to waste two installments on him.
Well, you know my opinion on this. Brood War relegates itself to pointlessness. Honestly, the damage to the Dominion wasn't from the UED - they're pretty clear that they want to use the Dominion's resources and population to further their agenda, so the ravages they made to Mengsk's power are minimal - but from Kerrigan herself, and StarCraft II still (sadly) portrays her and the Zerg as infinitely powerful, so in that way the impact of Brood War is not lost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I understand the conceit for this, but I fail to see why Mengsk has to be the villain of Sc2 given his track record.
Because Brood War didn't establish anyone who could take his place. Having him replaced off-screen by someone we are informed is more competent is literally how we get to "characters" like Amon, and I can tell you absolutely that this forum would have howled at this if Blizzard had attempted it.
Besides, Mengsk is an interesting character. Or used to be, anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Right, so there was some acknowledgement that the Protoss victory came at a cost before the retcon took full affect. We don't even have the privilege of that in WoL. Mengsk from Sc1 can easily transition into his Sc2 representation without so much of a problem. The reason it is a problem, because like it or not, BW did happen and stuff happened to Mengsk in BW.
Actually, they retcon it to an acknowledgement that the Zerg victory came at a cost, before hitting with the subsequent retcon that the Zerg are also infinitely powerful now, and that cost was meaningless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I was being somewhat facetious there, because I know that there really was massive changes in status quo. However, I'm pretty sure you relegate BW as being worthless for the same facetious logic I used (the UED came and went like a fart in the wind), when there was ample opportunity for status quo changing events. One of which being the high possibility of Mengsk becoming irrelevant.
Yes, I agree, and if Brood War had ended with Mengsk becoming irrelevant, then that would have made Brood War much more valuable as a story, and you would be correct that his situation in Wings of Liberty is a retcon. However, I don't think Brood War ended with Mengsk becoming irrelevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
And yet we have WoL which starts off trying to explain that Raynor had been a thorn in Mengsk's side for years and only recently has he been losing. Can we use the same justification for Raynor's comeback in Sc1 to explain his reapperance in WoL? At what point does this become untenable for you?
I don't think I understood your question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
It does when it shake the foundations of one's already threadbare authority. You have to take into account, he has no Dominion to help repay damages and he has lost further face/reputation. Sure, you can't measure something as reputation but at this point, that's all Mengsk has and it's been tarnished. He is now in the most vulnerable part of his life than at any other previous time. Before he was the leader of the Sons of Korhal he enjoyed and could make use of anonymity to build his coalitions but now, he's overexposed and with his pants down.
I don't see why losing in Omega would tarnish his reputation. Hell, after that battle the Zerg didn't show up again for five years. That's got to be great for the old propaganda mill, no? But even if people somehow knew it was a defeat, so what? The Zerg have destroyed every other force ever sent against them. They consumed the Confederacy, they annihilated the Protoss... why would they think Mengsk is expected to win, and why would they think that the internal strife of a revolution is a wise move at this point?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
How can he realistically offer those when, at the time, he has no empire/Dominion? There's nothing against him promising and lying to those special interest groups that he can impart such privileges later, but he is not, at that specific time, in the position to give them this.
I don't know about that. The Dominion is in ruins, but I'm pretty sure it's still his, even at that point. Possibly, those concessions were things he had to give to make sure his Dominion didn't fall apart. We don't really have enough info to tell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
As soon as you provide evidence that the force he commands in Omega is actually representative of the Dominion. :o
Everyone refers to it as being his fleet. If you want to assert that it's not, you have to provide the evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
That's because it's debatable that his comebacks in BW are implausible. Following from that, it's debatable that Mengsk can keeping continuing to plausibly comeback.
But his comeback in Wings of Liberty is also debatable in its implausibility. I know, I'm debating it ;).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
One, because there is, in the absence of hard evidence, anecdotal evidence to suggest that Mengsk's comebacks in BW came with an ever increasing cost that he would be hard pressed to pay. My stance is a little bit softer than the other guys because I've mentioned earlier and elsewhere that I have no real qualms about Mengsk coming back either just that there is no acknowledgement of the hardship and continuation of ramifications from BW. And two, I haven't had the chance to complain about the other ones yet. :p
True, but by the reckoning of Mengsk recoveries, it's been a long time since he took that beating. This would be the narrative equivalent of a shout-out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Someone who has the power to give someone else something does not mean that the person who was granted that thing has more power than original person who gave it to them in the first place. Especially so when the person doing the asking has nothing to give but promises in return.
I don't think Mengsk bought his fleet from a single person.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
No. He is able to wrangle the support of others out of nothing but his words because that's the conceit of his character. There is consistency there because he does this to Duke afterall. The price he pays is only once he loses the fleet because it destroys the conceit of his ability to sweet-talk anyone now.
Why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Not sure if I did say anything about turning his world into a superfortress really nor really thought about that being fine. I didn't even consider Augustgrad in BW to be that much of a deal probably because of the limitations of the game showing his "fortress" to be not much different/larger than any other outpost represented in other previous missions. The sparseness of that and the world itself being some nuclear desert/hostile looking didn't really help convey how powerful he was or that the world was occupied by any substantial civilian element. Even if it were not that, Korhal would have been the original base of his Sons of Korhal organisation, so there would've been some standing military force being bolstered by the remaining disparate Confederate troops that looked to him for guidance. The sparseness of Korhal there then becoming an ecumenopolis and peaceful centre of a largely harmonious/unified Terran presence in 5 years speaks of enormous, unheard of power and capability beyond what was even thought possible. Yeah, Rome wasn't built in a day... just five years is all. :p
I don't think Korhal would have been a Sons of Korhal base... that would be the first place the Confederacy would have looked for them. Remember that the Sons of Korhal couldn't operate openly. And if you think Confederate troops survived the fall of Tarsonis, why do you think Dominion troops didn't survive the fall of Korhal?
Anyway, the question isn't about how fast Mengsk rebuilt Korhal. It's about whether this speed is implausible by the standards set by the series thus far. The entire Terran population of the Koprulu System is only two and a half hundred years old, and they started from almost scratch and don't get immigrants.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Oh, and the third one arrived while I was writing the other post... just as well, probably. I think the post might have been too long otherwise :P.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Telenil
Mengsk's forces (I assume you mean that since she does leave Arcturus unharmed) are not "too dangerous", they "might be dangerous". About as much as Fenix's forces could be. Kerrigan is not taking any chance, and besides, she wanted to screw Arcturus no matter what, as revenge for getting left behind on Tarsonis.
Yes... they might be too dangerous to allow to live. What answer does she come up with to that hesitation? "They must all be eradicated." and "Slaughter them all in my name!". The meaning of that "might" is pretty clear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Telenil
I'm not sure of what you are trying to prove with these epilogues. Kerrigan had suffered a serious setback at the end of episode 5, so did Mengsk at the end of episode 6, and both made a threat before fleeing (this is also true of Artanis). There is a similarity in that sense, but since Brood War ends with Mengsk's words, the parallel could only be relevant for the recovery he makes before Starcraft 2, not the alledged unbelievable recoveries he made in Brood War.
Since my point is that the recovery in Wings of Liberty is not any more implausible than the ones in Brood War, that's still relevant. I'm arguing against three people at the same time, it can be hard to keep track of what degree of credibility you afford to each recovery, so I apologise if I make some mistake on that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Telenil
Arguable. The phrase can also be taken as "now that we have destroyed the UED here, the only thing that really threatens me is their forces on Char". Since the rest of the briefing mentions it won't be difficult to take both allies with a surprise attack, I stand by my understanding.
Nope. Again, Duran switches the topic by bringing up Mengsk, Raynor and Fenix. They were not what Kerrigan was talking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Telenil
Thus it made him weaker. Or are you arguing that being deposed and losing your heavily defended capital city was a negligible loss?
Of course it wasn't a negligible loss. And yet he recovered admirably in no time at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Telenil
Duke and Fenix together were defeated with "relative ease", and Mengsk is easy without Duke. So yes, it does mean that the threat the Dominion posed before before True Colors ranks at "relative ease".
What is true is Kerrigan understimated Arcturus as a person, in that she did not expect him to be able to rally a fleet at all. But she felt threatened by the combined forces of the three fleets, not by Arcturus' forces particularly. Omega put the Zerg against virtually every other faction left in the Sector, and they won anyway. What do you think the Dominion military alone could have done at this point?
There has never been any point after the Brood War retcon where anyone could do anything to the Zerg without magic, so that's entirely irrelevant, unless you're proposing that Mengsk was a threat to the entirety of the Zerg Swarm prior to being deposed by the UED? What is relevant is that Mengsk was still dangerous in both True Colors and Omega.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Telenil
When the UED moved against Aiur, Mengsk commanded a single battlecruiser fleeing from Korhal at top speed. They were moving to intercept Mengsk specifically, not his (at the time) non-existent army. The notion that emperor Arcturus Mengsk, as a person, is a danger to the UED is evidenced by the fact that DuGalle makes a point of executing him publicly, even after they have captured him. Which kind of make sense: unlike Kerrigan, the UED cared about politics.
What you are showing is that the UED considered Arcturus Mengsk could cause trouble even without an empire. Kerrigan didn't, and Omega shows that the UED probably made a better judgement. Which is an interesting point, that particular thought had never occured to me before.
Exactly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Telenil
Essentially correct, with the caveat that Arcturus also "called in favours". I'm not a native speaker, but I understand this as "you give me something now and I will do something for you later", like getting in debt, only not with money. If this is the case, it does seem to imply that he was a bit short on actual compensations.
Hmm, I'm not a native speaker of English either, but I'm fairly certain "calling in favours" is the other end of what you brought up. It's calling in the debt, like "Hey, remember that service I did for you last month? Now it's time for you to do something for me."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Telenil
In any case, the point is not that the favors were costly, it is that he had to make concessions at all - as opposed to ordering people around or giving money. He couldn't intimidate or coerce these people into joining him. Besides, as Kerrigan understands the situation, people are going to be disappointed, which supports the idea that Arcturus was given the fleet for this mission specifically.
I think it just means that it was an argument he used to convince people to sell cheap.
Anyway, to the point I'm making, a few concessions and favours for an end-game fleet delivered in days after you were abandoned in the ashes of your own empire seems like a pretty substantial recovery to me. Even if Mengsk is underselling how much it cost him (and I expect he is) that's still going from zero to superbadass in only a few days.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Eh, let's not :D.
Good call. :P
Quote:
You show that they started off at the same strength level, but that's irrelevant because we know they don't stay at the same strength level. We know that "In the decade since the end of the Guild Wars, the oppressive Terran Confederacy has stood unchallenged in its supremacy over colonial space."
Right, it's subjective, but that only gets you so far. You can't keep ignoring consistent military defeats and relegating one of the richest factions in the game to mediocrity. Let me remind you of their manual description:
Quote:
The Kel-Morian Combine is comprised of two powerful organisations: The Kelanis Guildand the Morian Mining Coalition. These two groups, both with questionable ties to the
Confederacy, have banded together in order to maximise their ability to drain the resources
from numerous worlds within the sector. The Combine is the largest non-Confederate
organisation operating within Terran space. Equipped with thousands of armed troops and
hardware, the Combine strictly enforces its myriad territorial operations. It is rumoured that
the Combine actually supplies the Confederacy with fuels and resources. So great is their
political influence, the Confederate forces have been banned from prosecuting the Combine
for any potentially criminal action.
And these guys can't be a threat to Mengsk, who just got repeatedly demolished. Why? o.o
Quote:
See, this is the point I really don't get with you guys. Why do you think it's not his fleet (or a Dominion fleet)?
Whether it's technically "his" or not after he bought it with favors is completely irrelevant. The fact that he has to beg for it is proof that the Dominion is militarily bankrupt. This is proof that there was no Dominion recovery made.
Quote:
Mengsk's Dominion in Brood War was founded on four surviving planets after nine others were lost to alien invasions, and he had a handful of months to build his empire.
Mengsk's Dominion in Wings of Liberty was founded on three surviving planets after ten others were lost to alien invasions, and he had over four years to build his empire.
There's no way one planet is a better deal than four additional years in that situation. There's no way that a single planet is worth the difference in time in that situation. And if you include the retcons that give Mengsk a whole lot more planets to deal with, then the value of a single one decreases even more. If the Terran systems were incapable of recovering on three planets, there's no way Mengsk could build mighty empire in a few months off off four. So you see, entirely consistent.
I'm not sure where you're getting those WoL planet numbers from, but the core worlds were originally thirteen planets ruled over by the Terran Confederacy. It stands to reason that the other two terran factions (Moria and Umoja) helped in rebuilding the Dominion after the Confederacy's downfall, making it much more realistic. But this also means that we have to give them credit for being more powerful than the Dominion (which is assumed to consist of former Confederate planets).
Quote:
Mengsk is abandoned "in the ashes of his precious empire" not allowed to ever recover again, and within the span of weeks he's effortlessly commanding one of the most powerful military forces in the Sector. I call that a recovery. But you try to excuse it by claiming that it's not really "his" army, even though everyone in the game calls it such, including the omniscient narrator. You don't have any reason for that, except that you don't want to accept the fact that Mengsk made a ridiculous recovery in no time at all.
It would be a recovery if he magically showed up with a new fleet from the Dominion. The fact that he had to bribe people to give him what he needs nullifies the notion of a recovery.
Quote:
The epilogue tells us that Mengsk is going to be rebuilding his Terran Dominion, Wings of Liberty shows us that Brood War was entirely correct in claiming that, and you say this is an inconsistency?
Yes, because of the degree of rebuilding.
Quote:
Meanwhile, I've already read the post you linked to when you linked to it two posts ago. You're just building a narrative. You don't have any evidence that Mengsk was in an irrecoverable position at the end of Brood War. You don't have any evidence that anyone could or would supplant him. You just prove that the Dominion suffered a lot in Brood War and from there jump to your conclusion.
I guess I think it's a really obvious conclusion. And yes, I do have evidence. The Dominion is militarily bankrupt, while other people are left with assets that Mengsk has to bribe them for.
There is no 100% irrefutable proof that someone is going to supplant him. SC1 has a barebones plot. Still, there's the underlying assumption that it's a realistic universe, in which case somebody is obligated to supplant him after his myriad failures and hits to his reputation.
Quote:
Yes, the recoveries make no sense, but that's not problematic to me. War RTS games require the factions to have powerful armies. It's a similar issue with the Mira Han missions, or Raynor's fleet of Battlecruisers in Eye of the Storm. The only way Mengsk recovery would be problematic to me is if Brood War indicated that he could not recover (as happened in True Colors and was then contradicted in Omega) or reverted a defeat into a victory (as happened in the battle of Aiur between StarCraft and Brood War). But there's no evidence that Mengsk is in an irrecoverable position at the end of Brood War. In fact, he appears to be in a much better position than he was after True Colors, from which he actually did recover. In the one, he was abandoned among the ashes, in the other he still had his crippled fleet. In the one, Kerrigan promised she would not let him recover, in the other Mengsk is already planing his recovery and Kerrigan has retreated the Swarm to Char and allowed him a reprieve. Things are looking up.
Yeah, that's still not evidence of a recovery. At no point did she promise she wouldn't let him recover. She said "Without the services of General Duke, Mengsk will be easy to deal with". By eliminating Duke and destroying his assets again, she prevented him from being able to rise to the power he once had. This is consistent with Omega where his fleet gets swatted away like a fly. It's also consistent with the ending speech she gives:
"- As for my unlikely allies, I think that I shall allow them a reprieve.- For in time I will seek to test their resolve, and their strengths."
She could go demolish Mengsk right now. But she doesn't want to because she feels that his power has been sufficiently crippled for her to toy with him. Given that you don't accept any forms of evidence that include military/reputation defeats, then you have to accept Kerrigan's word, which was consistent all game.
Quote:
Neither do salvage dumps, which is where Kerrigan claimed Mengsk must have found his miraculous fleet. It's the armament that was a surprise, not the people.
Great, so if Mengsk is too poor to buy armaments, why do you insist he's recovered? You haven't provided a shred of evidence that he recovered anything.
Quote:
Um, no? How is saying that Mengsk is still stronger than the other Terrans "conceding that the fleet doesn't belong to the Dominion"? This isn't complicated, Mengsk had to buy himself a new fleet, fast. He did so, using his authority and influence as the most powerful Terran in the Sector.
That makes no sense. The guy having to beg other people for money is not the strongest man in the sector. There are people who have armaments, and he is not one of those people. He is at the bottom of the barrel. Only his reputation saved him, and people would be stupid to put faith in him again for WoL.
Quote:
It would have been pretty bad for Kerrigan if they killed her, I feel. Back then she couldn't endlessly reincarnate.
Kerrigan isn't there. The last mission showed her on the surface of Char with the bulk of her broods. Since the bulk of her broods are still on Char during Omega, then so is she. That's why she said "you'll need to hold off the invaders by yourself."
She might have lost the platform, which would have been annoying, but then the rest of her broods would have returned and cleaned up the mess.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Right, it's subjective, but that only gets you so far. You can't keep ignoring consistent military defeats and relegating one of the richest factions in the game to mediocrity. Let me remind you of their manual description:
And these guys can't be a threat to Mengsk, who just got repeatedly demolished. Why? o.o
That's the problem Blizzard made with the KMC. With the exception of Heaven's Devils in the Guild Wars, they mostly just don't play ANY role. Even the Umojans played better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
That makes no sense. The guy having to beg other people for money is not the strongest man in the sector. There are people who have armaments, and he is not one of those people. He is at the bottom of the barrel. Only his reputation saved him, and people would be stupid to put faith in him again for WoL.
Answer me something, Gradius: if you were faced with total annihilation, how many times would you put your faith in a leader before you begin turning to alternatives?
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
In the interests of keeping this manageable for FT and to avoid repetitions, I'll try and refrain from responding after this post (FT can help by not responding so much too, of course :p). I think I've sussed out FT's position in an earlier post and it pretty much boils down to the fact that the Terrans in general (not specifically Mengsk) have always been treated as the massive underdog in all respects and the inherent conceit of them as a faction in Sc1 is that they yet are still able to become a thorn in anyone's side despite it. It's this absurdity that he's remarking on when discussing how it's consistent across the installments so far.
While this position has merit and is dependent on having some necessary degree of willing suspension of disbelief, I think the argument is about how the game itself conveys and invites us to have willing suspension of disbelief. That's what all this pedantic argument from us (Telenil, Gradius and I) is all about. FT thinks that we already should have had this willing suspension of disbelief already having followed Sc from the start and that there are many other cases where suspension of disbelief is all we have to rely on and accept, like for instance, Raynor coming back and the Protoss, too without nary an explanation. Unlike those examples (of course, this argument really has greater relevance on discussing how WoL's focus on Raynor is unjustified as well but that has been discussed elsewhere), we are actually invited to ponder how Mengsk comesback in BW and we are given clues to provide/help sell suspension of disbelief, not just to rely on one's capacity to swallow anything that is given to them. I think that this is what all the criticism about Sc2 in general seems circle around, too. It's all about world-building and a sense of verisimilitude.
With that out of the way, back to FT's responses (keep the above in mind whilst reading/replying):
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Yeah, but just because some of the narrative in StarCraft gets retconned doesn't mean that the parts which aren't retconned should have been retconned... that way lies madness.
Also, if you want to argue that we can't trust any of the text of any of the games because some of it gets retconned, what are we even arguing about? :P.
You're right. This is the problem of providing "evidence" in this particular case. It's still circumstantial and anecdotal no matter how you slice it. I was making such a comment in regards to the unreliability of using that as evidence when it can be cherry-picked to serve any argument.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Yes, but in Brood War, those are comebacks from successive defeats in the span of a single month. If he can achieve all that within just weeks, are you really telling me that what he achieved in the five years leading to Wings of Liberty is that incredible? He negotiated himself an Omega fleet in days!
The key word is "defeats". They imply a cost, a setback of some sort. His comebacks are with those costs/setbacks in mind. In terms of durability, there are so many setbacks one can take as well. And yes, what he achieves is incredible (not impossible) because of that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Well, I agree that all non-Zerg are effed by the end of Brood War, but that's more a problem of the Zerg being retconned to infinite power rather than the other factions being weakened to irrelevance. The end of Brood War doesn't make it look like they're going to be irrelevant when dealing with non-infinitely powerful Zerg factions, is what I meant. Brood War itself promised a sequel through Dark Origins and Kerrigan's feeling that a great threat loomed over the horizon and that her victory was hollow and there were trials yet to come. That's why the epilogue has every faction rebuilding, so that they could be relevant again when the sequel came. I felt that intention was pretty clear, but maybe I'm wrong.
You're right here, all of these things do point to a sequel but that's quite a cynical/mechanical take on things especially if we are looking at it in terms of the perspective of what is the "natural flow" of that universe. The characters don't know there's going to be a sequel, for instance. I can only speak for myself in this matter, but I never thought of BW as solely to push a sequel, much like how I viewed Sc1 was solely to push BW or Sc2. I took those things you mentioned as being something interestin" but never really gave them any weight/serious thought beyond the superficial message that the universe is larger than we expected and unknowable. They weren't relevant to the story at hand, which really ended and culminated with the Zerg in an unassailable position. I never fully expected a sequel or felt the need for one at the time.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Because Brood War didn't establish anyone who could take his place. Having him replaced off-screen by someone we are informed is more competent is literally how we get to "characters" like Amon, and I can tell you absolutely that this forum would have howled at this if Blizzard had attempted it.
Besides, Mengsk is an interesting character. Or used to be, anyway.
I'm divided on this. BW introduces a plethora of new characters and they were largely accepted. At they least, I'm sure they provoked less ire than how the old characters were represented in Sc2. Public outcry has nothing to do with it either way.
Mengsk "used to be interesting" is a very telling sign. Blizzard outrightly agrees with this and it shows it's beginnings in BW. It's why they try to introduce Valerian but comes across as hackneyed for those not in the know. In hindsight, with the way Mengsk is represented in Sc2, they would've been better off having/building a new Terran villain to fight instead. Besides, I wasn't advocating Mengsk's complete removal in Sc2, just to be in a position that at least reflected/acknowledged some of the blows he took. I mentioned that BW had a reprieve before the Zerg overpoweredness retcon when into full swing, that would have been enough.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
However, I don't think Brood War ended with Mengsk becoming irrelevant.
How do you see Mengsk's situation at the end of BW then given his defeats? I'm not talking about keeping narrative consistency like "he just does because he did before".
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
I don't think I understood your question.
If you find Raynor's comeback in Sc1 insane, how do you reconcile the fact that Raynor is still around to cause so much trouble in Sc2? You can say "well, it's consistent" but that doesn't explain how it is physically possible for him to still be there.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
I don't see why losing in Omega would tarnish his reputation. Hell, after that battle the Zerg didn't show up again for five years. That's got to be great for the old propaganda mill, no? But even if people somehow knew it was a defeat, so what? The Zerg have destroyed every other force ever sent against them. They consumed the Confederacy, they annihilated the Protoss... why would they think Mengsk is expected to win, and why would they think that the internal strife of a revolution is a wise move at this point?
We can't use what happens in WoL to retroactively determine what was going to happen at the time.
"They" expected Mengsk to win because that was one of the promises he made to get that fleet in the first place. He does not get any political gains by losing, which would be necessary given that the leadership of his government is in shambles. It won't be internal strife, it would be a power vacuum much like when the Confeds were removed. Someone else with more means and capability could've easily slipped in. Sure, we don't know who that could be but the opportunity was there. Otherwise, all we have is everything unnaturally bending itself to support a specific political party/position (Dominion) that was esssentially non-existent at the end of BW and one that didn't really prove itself before BW either.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
I don't know about that. The Dominion is in ruins, but I'm pretty sure it's still his, even at that point. Possibly, those concessions were things he had to give to make sure his Dominion didn't fall apart. We don't really have enough info to tell.
We don't even know if the political entity known as "The Dominion" even exists at this point. Given that Raynor only rescued Mengsk, the rest of his administration making up his Dominion would've been rounded up by the UED and executed most likely.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Everyone refers to it as being his fleet. If you want to assert that it's not, you have to provide the evidence.
What else did you think I meant? I should have said "fleet" but the point stands. A general's army is always known for being "his/hers", doesn't mean it's his personally. You can hire mercenaries but they are not technically yours nor do they represent or espouse your interests.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
True, but by the reckoning of Mengsk recoveries, it's been a long time since he took that beating. This would be the narrative equivalent of a shout-out.
Ahh, that troublesome "5 years as explanation for everything" notion. It is not a justifiable explanation on it's own because literally anything and everything can have that same explanation (ie: God came down and gave every living thing in existence an experience of paradise but then grew tired and turned everything back to the way it and left us because 5 years occurred and it just happened).
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
I don't think Mengsk bought his fleet from a single person.
I was trying to simplify my argument by using a neutral analogy.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Why?
Why what? Cause and effect, that's why.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
I don't think Korhal would have been a Sons of Korhal base... that would be the first place the Confederacy would have looked for them. Remember that the Sons of Korhal couldn't operate openly. And if you think Confederate troops survived the fall of Tarsonis, why do you think Dominion troops didn't survive the fall of Korhal?
The Confeds were pretty complacent about the Zerg and they (as others and the EU seem to intimate) knew about them a long time before they came to the K sector, I can understand why they wouldn't want to bother looking at world they torched long ago for the small fry that is the SoK given that there are other pirate militias around.
As to the surviving troops on Korhal, they would have been pressed into UED service, scattered to other Terran affiliation, disbanded or formed a non-effectual Pro-Dominion force (the UED and Confeds still have them afterall - and they have remained powerless all throughout).
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Anyway, the question isn't about how fast Mengsk rebuilt Korhal. It's about whether this speed is implausible by the standards set by the series thus far.
Granted that the speed of Terran recovery is standardised to be "impossibly fast", this doesn't qualify why it has to be Mengsk and the Dominion specifically to be granted such power. Why are they so special? Why not someone else?
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
I'm going to try to group your replies by subject to make life easier on me, instead of just replying to everything as it comes. Sorry if it's a bit confusing.
The Wings of Liberty Recovery
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Right, it's subjective, but that only gets you so far. You can't keep ignoring consistent military defeats [...]
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
The key word is "defeats". They imply a cost, a setback of some sort. His comebacks are with those costs/setbacks in mind. In terms of durability, there are so many setbacks one can take as well. And yes, what he achieves is incredible (not impossible) because of that.
But you're fine with ignoring military defeats until Omega since you don't consider that to be a recovery. So why would Omega be the final straw? Evidently, Omega is the least damning of all his defeats, it's part of an army lost in the field, without any significant repercussions. He hasn't lost any resources or infrastructure or political support from this. This is more on the scale of Duke getting kicked around on Char in StarCraft, and you'll note that I've never considered that to be a defeat worth recovering from.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
I guess I think it's a really obvious conclusion. And yes, I do have evidence. The Dominion is militarily bankrupt, while other people are left with assets that Mengsk has to bribe them for.
We know for a fact that you're wrong. Mengsk still possesses the remains of his endgame fleet, which even after his loss is multiple Battlecruisers strong. Not only have you not demonstrated that any Terran can do better, you've steadfastly refused to accept that Mengsk acquired that fleet in only a few days, at no apparent significant cost. Someone who can raise an army that powerful in that little time is not someone I would call "militarily bankrupt".
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Yeah, that's still not evidence of a recovery.
You've not provided any evidence of an incredible recovery in Wings of Liberty, either. So that game's still consistent with Brood War.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
If you find Raynor's comeback in Sc1 insane, how do you reconcile the fact that Raynor is still around to cause so much trouble in Sc2? You can say "well, it's consistent" but that doesn't explain how it is physically possible for him to still be there.
I still don't understand. Raynor doesn't have a fleet of Battlecruisers at his beck and call in StarCraft II. He's clearly weaker. Honestly, I think those Battlecruisers are just story/gameplay segregation. In the story, Raynor probably didn't have a fleet of Battlecruisers on Aiur.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Granted that the speed of Terran recovery is standardised to be "impossibly fast", this doesn't qualify why it has to be Mengsk and the Dominion specifically to be granted such power. Why are they so special? Why not someone else?
I know you're asking for an in-universe explanation, but in-universe there is no more reason for him to stay the Terran leader as there is for him not to. But the simple fact is that nobody has been established who can replace him, so you can't really do that narratively. Then again, I'm obviously wrong since they deposed the Judicator Caste and instated the Hierarchy between games, so they totally could have done that. But even then they kept an established character as the faction leader.
Okay, let's try this. The Confederacy ignored the Zerg and allowed them to rampage unchecked over their Fringe Worlds until it bit them in the arse. The Kel-Morian Combine ignores everything that's going on and tries to make money in the hope that someone else will make sure there's still a world to spend that money in. The Umojans are complete isolationists and aren't interested in fighting the Zerg except in absolute self-defence, and worse, they want to reach out to the Protoss and consort with them. Mengsk, meanwhile, is fighting the Zerg. The fact that he doesn't always win is a ridiculous reason to depose him, that'll just make sure his successor doesn't fight the Zerg either, since you can't lose if you don't fight. What's more, Mengsk is the only one to have apparent victories over the Zerg. He chased the Zerg off Korhal, he fought the Swarm over Char and they didn't show up again for years. That's a better track record than any other human out there. Considering, why wouldn't you want Mengsk as head of the Dominion?
The Subtext of the end of Brood War
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
You're right here, all of these things do point to a sequel but that's quite a cynical/mechanical take on things especially if we are looking at it in terms of the perspective of what is the "natural flow" of that universe. The characters don't know there's going to be a sequel, for instance. I can only speak for myself in this matter, but I never thought of BW as solely to push a sequel, much like how I viewed Sc1 was solely to push BW or Sc2. I took those things you mentioned as being something interestin" but never really gave them any weight/serious thought beyond the superficial message that the universe is larger than we expected and unknowable. They weren't relevant to the story at hand, which really ended and culminated with the Zerg in an unassailable position. I never fully expected a sequel or felt the need for one at the time.
Yeah, but it isn't a question of how the characters interpret the situation, it's a question of how the audience interprets the situation. You said that Mengsk's recovery in Wings of Liberty was problematic for you because of the clear subtext of Mengsk's position at the end of Brood War. But I'm showing that the subtext would rather seem to indicate that the Dominion would be rebuilt for the sequel.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Ahh, that troublesome "5 years as explanation for everything" notion. It is not a justifiable explanation on it's own because literally anything and everything can have that same explanation (ie: God came down and gave every living thing in existence an experience of paradise but then grew tired and turned everything back to the way it and left us because 5 years occurred and it just happened).
No, the point is that why would it be brought up, except as a blatant shout-out? It's like when Raynor mentions Fenix in Heart of the Swarm - I hated it because it was clearly inserted only because fans complained for years that "Raynor has forgotten about Fenix". It's immersion breaking. Wings of Liberty occurs after the rebuilding has occurred, with an established period of time for it to occur in. This is not like when Mengsk ends one mission abandoned in the ashes of his capitol world and appears again four missions later at the head of a massive fleet, that demands an explanation. The five-years explanation is the explanation, and I find it a lot less ridiculous as far as explanations go than "yeah, I talked to some people" which is what he gives in Omega.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
How do you see Mengsk's situation at the end of BW then given his defeats? I'm not talking about keeping narrative consistency like "he just does because he did before".
Honestly, I don't understand how you three can view Mengsk buying himself a new fleet in days off of favours and concessions as a sign of his weakness. Money has no allegiance, anyone can buy an army if they have enough money. But buying an army with favours and promises? It's the most stupendous display of power I've seen from Arcturus Mengsk in any game. Now, obviously I don't think he got his fleet off promises alone, those factors probably just allowed him to get them fast and cheap, but still.
The epilogue is quite clear that Mengsk got his arse handed to him by Kerrigan. How do I see Mengsk's situation? Well, he's been beaten bad and needs to recover. But I never got the impression that he wasn't the most powerful Terran in the Sector. The thing with the epilogue is that it establishes Kerrigan's absolute dominance - everyone got their arses handed to them. Mengsk is weak, relative to what he was earlier and relative to Kerrigan, but not relative to any other Terran. That's how I see it.
Other Terran Factions by the end of Brood War
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
and relegating one of the richest factions in the game to mediocrity. Let me remind you of their manual description:
And these guys can't be a threat to Mengsk, who just got repeatedly demolished. Why? o.o
I'm ignoring the Kel-Morian Combine because the game ignores them. If they were going to be a threat to Mengsk, they would have been established as such. But they're not. They only appear as a convenient source of pillage for Kerrigan before she moves on to something more important... invading Korhal. That should tell you something right there: the capitol world of the Kel-Morian Combine is such a non-threat that invading it actually bolsters her strength, strength which she will need to invade the capitol world of the Dominion which, at this point, has already been invaded and had its defences breached.
If you want to go the "covert mission" route (with stealthy Ultralisks and a chunk of the population infested and shipped off to die elsewhere) then there's again another comparison to Korhal: Media Blitz. Horner had to call in every favor he had to smuggle in some Terrans and Terran materiel on a Terran planet. How did Kerrigan sneak a Protoss Dragoon and a brood of Zerg (including Ultralisks!) onto the Kel-Morian capitol? If you're going this route, it still shows the Kel-Morians not being very dangerous.
When the UED invaded, the Kel-Morians rolled over and surrendered immediately. That doesn't promise much about their combative aptitudes that they weren't even willing to try to defend their sovereignty.
Nothing about the Kel-Morian Combine suggests that they're capable of overthrowing Mengsk.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
I'm not sure where you're getting those WoL planet numbers from, but the core worlds were originally thirteen planets ruled over by the Terran Confederacy. It stands to reason that the other two terran factions (Moria and Umoja) helped in rebuilding the Dominion after the Confederacy's downfall, making it much more realistic. But this also means that we have to give them credit for being more powerful than the Dominion (which is assumed to consist of former Confederate planets).
Actually, I can't find the source for that claim about the Confederate core worlds. The prologue to Overmind says thirteen Terran worlds, not Confederate. And the manual says that the Confederacy colonised seven other worlds, and that it was this that gave it superiority over the other two factions (suggesting that they were not colonial in nature), leaving three planets unaccounted for. Perhaps the distinction between "Core" and "Fringe" Worlds derives from there then, Tarsonis and those other seven planets are the "Core worlds" and the missing three planets are the "Fringe worlds", colonised after the Guild Wars. Or maybe the other three are worlds that nominally belong to the Kel-Morian Combine - while Umoja is never described as having any interest in other worlds, and sounds like it was isolationist, the Kel-Morian Combine did have numerous guilds that operated on other worlds, though most were annexed into Confederate holdings after the Guild Wars.
Whatever the case, that does not address the fact that the Wings of Liberty Dominion was built on only one fewer planets but around eight times more time than the one the UED found so important in Brood War, and that seems to be quite credible, relatively speaking.
The Omega Recovery
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Whether it's technically "his" or not after he bought it with favors is completely irrelevant. The fact that he has to beg for it is proof that the Dominion is militarily bankrupt. This is proof that there was no Dominion recovery made.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
It would be a recovery if he magically showed up with a new fleet from the Dominion. The fact that he had to bribe people to give him what he needs nullifies the notion of a recovery.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
That makes no sense. The guy having to beg other people for money is not the strongest man in the sector. There are people who have armaments, and he is not one of those people. He is at the bottom of the barrel. Only his reputation saved him, and people would be stupid to put faith in him again for WoL.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
What else did you think I meant? I should have said "fleet" but the point stands. A general's army is always known for being "his/hers", doesn't mean it's his personally. You can hire mercenaries but they are not technically yours nor do they represent or espouse your interests.
Look, I know you're getting desperate, but there is never any indication that Mengsk had to beg. There is never any indication that the fleet is not a Dominion fleet or doesn't belong to Mengsk. And the notion that it doesn't count as a recovery if he has to pay for his fleet (really?) makes no sense. The reality of the situation is that Mengsk went from being abandoned on a devastated Korhal to commanding one of the most powerful fleets in the Sector in days. That is an incredible recovery.
Even if I were to accept the ridiculous notion that having to give something in exchange for being given a fleet is "begging" (do you realise that politicians make concessions all the time, and usually for far less than an endgame fleet?) the fact that he could "beg" himself an endgame fleet still demonstrates that he was the most powerful Terran in the Sector. Because I can beg (or even "beg") all I want, nobody's going to give me one of the most powerful fleets on the planet.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
"They" expected Mengsk to win because that was one of the promises he made to get that fleet in the first place.
Can you demonstrate that? Clearly, he was going to use that fleet to fight Kerrigan, but do you have any evidence that they expected him to win rather than hoped for him to win? Either way, forcing Kerrigan to retreat to Char for the next few years would still come off as a victory, wouldn't it?
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Great, so if Mengsk is too poor to buy armaments, why do you insist he's recovered? You haven't provided a shred of evidence that he recovered anything.
"Too poor to buy armaments"? He has bought them already. He has them now. He's trying to kill Kerrigan with those very armaments. The purchase is a fait accompli. The evidence is incontrovertible that he isn't too poor to buy armaments.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
We don't even know if the political entity known as "The Dominion" even exists at this point. Given that Raynor only rescued Mengsk, the rest of his administration making up his Dominion would've been rounded up by the UED and executed most likely.
The victory screen for Omega identifies the red Terran as "Terran Dominion". Not my preferred source, but generally pretty accurate. Should be sufficient unless you have a reason it wouldn't be.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
At no point did she promise she wouldn't let him recover.
"Oh, come on, Arcturus. Did you really think I'd allow you to come into power again?"
COMPLETELY OFF-TOPIC
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
It's why they try to introduce Valerian but comes across as hackneyed for those not in the know.
I'm actually avoiding this part of your reply because I'm afraid it will veer into a completely different discussion (about Mengsk as a character) and I've got enough text to type already, so much like the issue of the Zerg's perpetual sustainability and recoverability I abandoned with Gradius earlier, I'll table this for some other time, but I do have to ask: what's wrong with Valerian? He and Tychus are my favourite new characters of Wings of Liberty. I'm actually making him the Point-of-View character in my Brood War fanficcy replacement :p.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Must resist replying...ah screw it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
But you're fine with ignoring military defeats until Omega since you don't consider that to be a recovery. So why would Omega be the final straw?
We haven't ignored his previous defeats. I have spoken previously that each of his comebacks is contextualised with the losses he incurs from the defeat prior to that comeback. He loses something in each defeat and comeback, with Omega being the latest one. He has nothing else aside from words to arrange the fleet he currently has at his disposal and he can't back them up.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
He hasn't lost any resources or infrastructure or political support from this.
You have to keep in mind the continous ramifications of his previous defeats. He has none of this to give already and now has even less opportunity to be able to get such things with a defeat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
I still don't understand. Raynor doesn't have a fleet of Battlecruisers at his beck and call in StarCraft II. He's clearly weaker. Honestly, I think those Battlecruisers are just story/gameplay segregation. In the story, Raynor probably didn't have a fleet of Battlecruisers on Aiur.
And you blame us for concocting narratives to explain Mengsk's continued presence? Raynor is clearly powerful enough in WoL to pull of sorts of things and engage in battles with enemies many times larger and more powerful than his supposed single battlecruiser band in WoL. I'm not sure whether Blizz or the EU has officially said how large Raynor's force actually is but you seem prepared to call his presence in Sc1 absurd and then go on to try and explain his subsequent appearance in WoL as being weaker is because he lost there. Hmm, that sounds like the reasoning we're using for Mengsk's scenario...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
I know you're asking for an in-universe explanation, but in-universe there is no more reason for him to stay the Terran leader as there is for him not to. But the simple fact is that nobody has been established who can replace him, so you can't really do that narratively. Then again, I'm obviously wrong since they deposed the Judicator Caste and instated the Hierarchy between games, so they totally could have done that. But even then they kept an established character as the faction leader.
One just has to look at the nature of Terran dynamics to answer that question for yourself. In that type of world, do you think that Mengsk is the only unique individual to be able to do all these things? The character is great but things shouldn't bend in favour of him if it disrupts the natural flow of that universe. The very arguments the others and I have put forward are about the in-universe reasons for Mengsk not continuing/being able to be Terran leader.
I have no such qualms about someone replacing him. You can introduce any new character to do that easily (hell, if you wanted some familiarity, go for Valerian), build them up and backfill as necessary since that happens all the time. The Terrans have more depth than just Mengsk/ Dominion and Blizz concede that his story was pretty much finished since Sc1. If BW goes on to show his downfall, why is he back again in Sc2? Heck why doesn't he just survive the head explosion Kerrigan gave him in HotS and comeback in LotV to become a pain in everyone's arse since it is "consist" with his previous portrayals?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Considering, why wouldn't you want Mengsk as head of the Dominion?
It's not about what I want. It's about understanding that the universe doesn't revolve around Mengsk and that there is some illusion of depth. It doesn't have be the Umojan, KMC or some other generic Terran group specifically even though that could've helped expand and include them. It could've easily been another political rival within the remnants of the Dominion that acknowledges that Mengsk is weak and goes about preventing him from rising again. It could be anything really. It can't be Mengsk because BW systematically shows him as a failure and an incompetent at every turn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Yeah, but it isn't a question of how the characters interpret the situation, it's a question of how the audience interprets the situation. You said that Mengsk's recovery in Wings of Liberty was problematic for you because of the clear subtext of Mengsk's position at the end of Brood War. But I'm showing that the subtext would rather seem to indicate that the Dominion would be rebuilt for the sequel.
I'm not talking about character interpretations either. I am talking about the audience interpretation and I think it's somewhat dependent on what perspective you take. I don't interpret the situation as the writers gunning for a sequel (in some sense I do, but that's a very cynical take on things) but more to do with the writer was trying to convey at the moment they wrote the thing. When I read that epilogue of Mengsk going back to rebuild the Dominion, I didn't take that as omniscient fact, I pretty much thought, "Yeah, good luck with that Mengsk, you're gonna need it!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Wings of Liberty occurs after the rebuilding has occurred, with an established period of time for it to occur in. This is not like when Mengsk ends one mission abandoned in the ashes of his capitol world and appears again four missions later at the head of a massive fleet, that demands an explanation. The five-years explanation is the explanation, and I find it a lot less ridiculous as far as explanations go than "yeah, I talked to some people" which is what he gives in Omega.
Given that the contention lies first in Mengsk's actual ability to even put his house in order and the lack of perceived consequence, stating the 5 years reasoning being Ok is putting the cart ahead of the horse.
As to the "I talked to some people" reason Mengsk gives, did you really expect him to spout a long-winded monologue to show how he painstakingly got that fleet together? Would you even believe him based on what his history of truth manipulation. I've cited his ability to turn Duke on a dime with just words (I'm sure Duke could have just rejected Mengsk's offer and waited for the rest of his Alpha squadron to come pick him up) as being one abilities but since this is all he has and relies on to get the fleet in Omega (keeping in mind all the losses he had taken previously), it makes sense that it just all boils down to "I talked to some people".
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Honestly, I don't understand how you three can view Mengsk buying himself a new fleet in days off of favours and concessions as a sign of his weakness. Money has no allegiance, anyone can buy an army if they have enough money. But buying an army with favours and promises? It's the most stupendous display of power I've seen from Arcturus Mengsk in any game. Now, obviously I don't think he got his fleet off promises alone, those factors probably just allowed him to get them fast and cheap, but still.
With his Dominion in "ashes" with what can he physically barter with except for what he has plenty of and used effectively before in empty words and promises?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Mengsk is weak, relative to what he was earlier and relative to Kerrigan, but not relative to any other Terran.
This does not compute. Mengsk is weaker relative to what he was earlier but also not relative to other Terrans. That's a mighty specific claim. Given that Mengsk only had a nascent government to begin with, if he's been setback relative to what he was then, that makes him vulnerable to other Terrans who didn't suffer as much as he did. Afterall, the SoK were a small pirate group (compared to the likes of the Umojans and KMC) that took over everything, what's stopping such a thing from occurring if Mengsk has been weakened relative to what he was before? How can you be sure it wasn't hurt bad enough to stop scavengers from coming in? Because we didn't hear anything of and about them? That's a weak justification.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Can you demonstrate that? Clearly, he was going to use that fleet to fight Kerrigan, but do you have any evidence that they expected him to win rather than hoped for him to win? Either way, forcing Kerrigan to retreat to Char for the next few years would still come off as a victory, wouldn't it?
Whatever, they wanted him to win against the Zerg because he says he can beat them if they give him a fleet. He loses the fleet and thereby loses face to those that gave him the fleet as well as being in debt to them.
Kerrigan happening to not do anything at all is a fanciful notion that is only made apparent because the writers arbitrarily stated so to keep the story continuing. Neither parties would have realised at the time that they actually won when they lost in Omega.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
The victory screen for Omega identifies the red Terran as "Terran Dominion". Not my preferred source, but generally pretty accurate. Should be sufficient unless you have a reason it wouldn't be.
Sure, Mengsk literally is the embodiment of the "Dominion" but it exists solely in him hence the victory screen title but an empire cannot run on it own with there just being an emperor and nothing else.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
what's wrong with Valerian? He and Tychus are my favourite new characters of Wings of Liberty. I'm actually making him the Point-of-View character in my Brood War fanficcy replacement :p.
Nothing's wrong with Valerian as a character per se. He's also one of the new elements I like. It's just that his introduction was a bit stupid (he risked getting killed just to make a grande introduction/entrance?) and there wasn't enough done with his character beyond being an expository mouthpiece and a cog in the machine known as "plot".
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
We haven't ignored his previous defeats. I have spoken previously that each of his comebacks is contextualised with the losses he incurs from the defeat prior to that comeback. He loses something in each defeat and comeback, with Omega being the latest one. He has nothing else aside from words to arrange the fleet he currently has at his disposal and he can't back them up.
No he doesn't. He's clearly better off after Omega than he was after True Colors. And he's a lot better off before Omega than after True Colors.
Omega is not a significant defeat in any sense, which is why you have to reach for hypotheticals to make it so and excuses to explain the fact that he shows up at all. Fact is, if he was ever in an irrecoverable position in Brood War, it was after True Colors. If we hadn't seen Mengsk after that, then your position that he could not credibly make his return would be much stronger. But he does show up again, and he shows up strong. Omega doesn't demonstrate that Mengsk is in an irrecoverable position, it demonstrates that he's still top dog among the Koprulu Terrans.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
You have to keep in mind the continous ramifications of his previous defeats. He has none of this to give already and now has even less opportunity to be able to get such things with a defeat.
Yes he does, otherwise he wouldn't have a massive endgame fleet.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
And you blame us for concocting narratives to explain Mengsk's continued presence? Raynor is clearly powerful enough in WoL to pull of sorts of things and engage in battles with enemies many times larger and more powerful than his supposed single battlecruiser band in WoL. I'm not sure whether Blizz or the EU has officially said how large Raynor's force actually is but you seem prepared to call his presence in Sc1 absurd and then go on to try and explain his subsequent appearance in WoL as being weaker is because he lost there. Hmm, that sounds like the reasoning we're using for Mengsk's scenario...
I still have no idea what you're talking about. I didn't say he was weaker because he lost on Aiur (not least because I usually forget that that battle was retconned into a defeat and would probably have claimed that Raynor won on Aiur) I said he was weaker because he was probably never really that strong. They wanted you to be able to use Battlecruisers in the final mission.
But even so, I don't understand your argument. Raynor is weaker in Wings of Liberty than he was at the end of StarCraft and that demonstrates an improbable recovery? Aren't you complaing about Mengsk because he's stronger than he was at the end of Brood War?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
One just has to look at the nature of Terran dynamics to answer that question for yourself. In that type of world, do you think that Mengsk is the only unique individual to be able to do all these things? The character is great but things shouldn't bend in favour of him if it disrupts the natural flow of that universe. The very arguments the others and I have put forward are about the in-universe reasons for Mengsk not continuing/being able to be Terran leader.
I have no such qualms about someone replacing him. You can introduce any new character to do that easily (hell, if you wanted some familiarity, go for Valerian), build them up and backfill as necessary since that happens all the time. The Terrans have more depth than just Mengsk/ Dominion and Blizz concede that his story was pretty much finished since Sc1. If BW goes on to show his downfall, why is he back again in Sc2? Heck why doesn't he just survive the head explosion Kerrigan gave him in HotS and comeback in LotV to become a pain in everyone's arse since it is "consist" with his previous portrayals?
It's not about what I want. It's about understanding that the universe doesn't revolve around Mengsk and that there is some illusion of depth. It doesn't have be the Umojan, KMC or some other generic Terran group specifically even though that could've helped expand and include them. It could've easily been another political rival within the remnants of the Dominion that acknowledges that Mengsk is weak and goes about preventing him from rising again. It could be anything really. It can't be Mengsk because BW systematically shows him as a failure and an incompetent at every turn.
I think you skipped over an important part:
Okay, let's try this. The Confederacy ignored the Zerg and allowed them to rampage unchecked over their Fringe Worlds until it bit them in the arse. The Kel-Morian Combine ignores everything that's going on and tries to make money in the hope that someone else will make sure there's still a world to spend that money in. The Umojans are complete isolationists and aren't interested in fighting the Zerg except in absolute self-defence, and worse, they want to reach out to the Protoss and consort with them. Mengsk, meanwhile, is fighting the Zerg. The fact that he doesn't always win is a ridiculous reason to depose him, that'll just make sure his successor doesn't fight the Zerg either, since you can't lose if you don't fight. What's more, Mengsk is the only one to have apparent victories over the Zerg. He chased the Zerg off Korhal, he fought the Swarm over Char and they didn't show up again for years. That's a better track record than any other human out there. Considering, why wouldn't you want Mengsk as head of the Dominion?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I'm not talking about character interpretations either. I am talking about the audience interpretation and I think it's somewhat dependent on what perspective you take. I don't interpret the situation as the writers gunning for a sequel (in some sense I do, but that's a very cynical take on things) but more to do with the writer was trying to convey at the moment they wrote the thing. When I read that epilogue of Mengsk going back to rebuild the Dominion, I didn't take that as omniscient fact, I pretty much thought, "Yeah, good luck with that Mengsk, you're gonna need it!"
Well, I didn't. And I turned out to be right. But no, they were clearly going for a sequel. That "bonus mission" stuff is nothing but sequel bait.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
As to the "I talked to some people" reason Mengsk gives, did you really expect him to spout a long-winded monologue to show how he painstakingly got that fleet together? Would you even believe him based on what his history of truth manipulation. I've cited his ability to turn Duke on a dime with just words (I'm sure Duke could have just rejected Mengsk's offer and waited for the rest of his Alpha squadron to come pick him up) as being one abilities but since this is all he has and relies on to get the fleet in Omega (keeping in mind all the losses he had taken previously), it makes sense that it just all boils down to "I talked to some people".
You three are the ones attaching undue importance to Mengsk's words here, saying things like "he had nothing left but empty words and promises". I'm just trying to be nice and argue on your own terms. Of course you're wrong, you don't need to convince me of that.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
With his Dominion in "ashes" with what can he physically barter with except for what he has plenty of and used effectively before in empty words and promises?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
This does not compute. Mengsk is weaker relative to what he was earlier but also not relative to other Terrans. That's a mighty specific claim. Given that Mengsk only had a nascent government to begin with, if he's been setback relative to what he was then, that makes him vulnerable to other Terrans who didn't suffer as much as he did. Afterall, the SoK were a small pirate group (compared to the likes of the Umojans and KMC) that took over everything, what's stopping such a thing from occurring if Mengsk has been weakened relative to what he was before? How can you be sure it wasn't hurt bad enough to stop scavengers from coming in? Because we didn't hear anything of and about them? That's a weak justification.
The only Terran world that we see get destroyed in Brood War is Korhal. So if you're going to say that the Dominion is ashes, you've got to assume that unmentioned worlds were also devastated. But then you turn your standard on its head for the other Terran factions and assume that unmentioned worlds are fine.
Also, I'm sure it wasn't hurt bad enough to stop scavengers from coming in because that's what Wings of Liberty shows us. If you want to claim that there's a contradiction there, you're the one that needs to demonstrate it.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Whatever, they wanted him to win against the Zerg because he says he can beat them if they give him a fleet. He loses the fleet and thereby loses face to those that gave him the fleet as well as being in debt to them.
He still has part of the fleet. Are you saying he lost face because he didn't eradicate the Zerg without suffering any casualties?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Kerrigan happening to not do anything at all is a fanciful notion that is only made apparent because the writers arbitrarily stated so to keep the story continuing. Neither parties would have realised at the time that they actually won when they lost in Omega.
They don't need to.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Sure, Mengsk literally is the embodiment of the "Dominion" but it exists solely in him hence the victory screen title but an empire cannot run on it own with there just being an emperor and nothing else.
You're just making stuff up because you're unwilling to admit that Mengsk got himself a fleet in days for Omega. It was his fleet. He didn't "borrow" it, he didn't "have to beg" for it, and it was a Dominion fleet. There is no reason to deny what the game makes clear other than that it pokes a gaping hole in your position. Give me any reason to believe it wasn't a Dominion fleet, despite the game saying it is.
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
He chased the Zerg off Korhal, he fought the Swarm over Char and they didn't show up again for years. That's a better track record than any other human out there. Considering, why wouldn't you want Mengsk as head of the Dominion?
By that logic, Moria repelled a zerg attack on their homeworld and suffered no other losses. Why wouldn't the average citizen go with them, instead of Mengsk who kept getting crushed like a cracker over soup?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
But you're fine with ignoring military defeats until Omega since you don't consider that to be a recovery.
You haven't proven that it is.
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So why would Omega be the final straw? Evidently, Omega is the least damning of all his defeats, it's part of an army lost in the field, without any significant repercussions. He hasn't lost any resources or infrastructure or political support from this. This is more on the scale of Duke getting kicked around on Char in StarCraft, and you'll note that I've never considered that to be a defeat worth recovering from.
Duke didn't exhaust all of the Dominion's assets in previous battles and have to call in favors/concessions to fund his expedition to Char.
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We know for a fact that you're wrong. Mengsk still possesses the remains of his endgame fleet, which even after his loss is multiple Battlecruisers strong.
What are you referring to here? The fact that he left Omega with his life?
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Not only have you not demonstrated that any Terran can do better
The Kel-Morians can.
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you've steadfastly refused to accept that Mengsk acquired that fleet in only a few days, at no apparent significant cost. Someone who can raise an army that powerful in that little time is not someone I would call "militarily bankrupt".
That's like saying that just because I'm homeless, jobless and in debt, but asked the bank for $800,000 to buy a new house, I'm not actually poor.
"Hey, check out my new car guys! I got it free! All they do is just make you sign a bunch of stuff!"
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You've not provided any evidence of an incredible recovery in Wings of Liberty, either. So that game's still consistent with Brood War.
"*spends trillions of credits on Raynor
*spends lavish amount of money beautifying Korhal
*builds extravagant weapons like the Odin and unveils a new battlecruiser every week
Even the WoL CD intro says "Meanwhile, the Dominion has grown in power and extended its influence throughout the Koprulu sector." This is the same as saying that it's vying with the other factions for power and winning."
I could keep going. There were no orbital defenses in BW. There was no secret Hybrid Lab in BW that was almost as well defended as Augustgrad. There was no psi destroyer in BW. etc. etc.
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I'm ignoring the Kel-Morian Combine because the game ignores them. If they were going to be a threat to Mengsk, they would have been established as such. But they're not.
Well, that's not really a convincing argument. SC2 has been ignoring the UED. Does that mean they're not a threat?
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They only appear as a convenient source of pillage for Kerrigan before she moves on to something more important... invading Korhal. That should tell you something right there: the capitol world of the Kel-Morian Combine is such a non-threat that invading it actually bolsters her strength, strength which she will need to invade the capitol world of the Dominion which, at this point, has already been invaded and had its defences breached.
Completely flawed comparison. I think we both know that Korhal was more important because it was controlled by...the UED and their slave broods. When it's just Mengsk and the Dominion, it only took Kerrigan one mission to destroy them all (not to mention their protoss allies as well). This still puts Moria above Korhal because Moria got an entire mission to themselves and was "just a raid".
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If you want to go the "covert mission" route (with stealthy Ultralisks and a chunk of the population infested and shipped off to die elsewhere) then there's again another comparison to Korhal: Media Blitz. Horner had to call in every favor he had to smuggle in some Terrans and Terran materiel on a Terran planet. How did Kerrigan sneak a Protoss Dragoon and a brood of Zerg (including Ultralisks!) onto the Kel-Morian capitol? If you're going this route, it still shows the Kel-Morians not being very dangerous.
Ok, let's talk about Media Blitz. During this "raid" on Augustgrad, Raynor managed to bring down a Command Center, several Thors, and a giant army down to the surface of the planet. Very stealthy. If one guy and his battlecruiser of rebels can land a crippling blow by Augustgrad, it should be absolutely no problem for Kerrigan and the swarm to lay waste to it. But she can't. It's the toughest fight of her life, whereas before she could get it done in half a mission. Because Mengsk made a miraculous recovery in SC2/HoTS.
And nobody is disputing that Moria took a giant army with Ultralisks and infestation of Command Centers to complete. It was a large battle. But it was also a surprise attack to steal resources where they didn't have to face the full might of Kel-Moria, and that's why Fenix called it "covert".
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When the UED invaded, the Kel-Morians rolled over and surrendered immediately. That doesn't promise much about their combative aptitudes that they weren't even willing to try to defend their sovereignty.
When the UED invaded, Kel-Moria was part of the Dominion, so you can't make that claim.
True, they went back to working for themselves after Mengsk got trashed, but that's the reasonable thing to do, and it's why Mengsk's recovery in WoL makes no sense.
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Actually, I can't find the source for that claim about the Confederate core worlds.
In the Terran factions section of the manual.
"The Terran Confederacy consists of nearly a dozen planets within the Koprulu Sector."
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Whatever the case, that does not address the fact that the Wings of Liberty Dominion was built on only one fewer planets but around eight times more time than the one the UED found so important in Brood War, and that seems to be quite credible, relatively speaking.
Except without the assistance of Moria and Umoja.
I don't recall ever getting planet numbers from WoL. What do you mean "one fewer planets"? The new planets they keep retconning into existence befuddles this whole issue IIRC.
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Look, I know you're getting desperate, but there is never any indication that Mengsk had to beg. There is never any indication that the fleet is not a Dominion fleet or doesn't belong to Mengsk.
It's simple semantics. You don't make favors & concessions to order around a fleet that is yours.
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And the notion that it doesn't count as a recovery if he has to pay for his fleet (really?) makes no sense.
Nobody is saying it's not impressive that he got a fleet. But all evidence points to the fact that his well has run dry. That's why Kerrigan asks him "how'd you manage to scrape up your new fleet? been raiding the salvage dumps again?"
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The reality of the situation is that Mengsk went from being abandoned on a devastated Korhal to commanding one of the most powerful fleets in the Sector in days. That is an incredible recovery.
You have no evidence that it's a recovery. He goes from a shitty situation to a terrible situation after Omega. It's a consistent downgrade all the way through.
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Even if I were to accept the ridiculous notion that having to give something in exchange for being given a fleet is "begging" (do you realise that politicians make concessions all the time, and usually for far less than an endgame fleet?) the fact that he could "beg" himself an endgame fleet still demonstrates that he was the most powerful Terran in the Sector. Because I can beg (or even "beg") all I want, nobody's going to give me one of the most powerful fleets on the planet.
Again, it's like if you borrowed a vast sum of money to purchase a house. Sure, if you beg, banks will give you money, but if you squander it (like Mengsk did at Omega), then your credit history is ruined and good luck getting another loan again! :D
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"Too poor to buy armaments"? He has bought them already. He has them now. He's trying to kill Kerrigan with those very armaments. The purchase is a fait accompli. The evidence is incontrovertible that he isn't too poor to buy armaments.
If he could afford armaments, he wouldn't have to get them on credit (favors/concessions). His well has run out.
I can't afford a new Lamborghini Gallardo, but if I was desperate enough I could still buy one.
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"Oh, come on, Arcturus. Did you really think I'd allow you to come into power again?"
That was obviously a response to: "Kerrigan, you murdering bitch! We had a deal!"
It takes an extremely liberal interpretation to read that as "Mengsk, you will never command a fleet again". I showed you that she states the opposite in the epilogue. She WILL let him recover because she wants to toy with him. However, that doesn't mean he can return to the power and prestige he once had. That's the entire point of your quote, and proof that his recovery in WoL is unbelievable.
I've said multiple times that evidence can be subjective, but you're the one claiming there is a contradiction in that he recovered way too much for Omega. So where's the contradiction? Why should I believe your plothole-inducing explanation over my perfectly consistent interpretation of events?
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Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
He's clearly better off after Omega than he was after True Colors.
To you perhaps. You haven't established exactly why beyond saying "he did it before". If he actually "bought" a fleet with what cash he could find/negotiate from the ashes of his Dominion only to have it all wasted as he did in Omega, you expect he could just find the cash again at any time later? He'd be back to square one amongst the ashes of his Dominion again - and vulnerable again.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Omega is not a significant defeat in any sense, which is why you have to reach for hypotheticals to make it so and excuses to explain the fact that he shows up at all.
Are you not making hypotheticals to support your base unfounded assumption that his recovery is nothing but absurd?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
If we hadn't seen Mengsk after that, then your position that he could not credibly make his return would be much stronger.
Hold on, doesn't your argument hinge on all his comebacks as being absurd, like the one after he got rescued by Kerrigan? If you're saying that we don't hear from him after being trashed in True Colours is "ok", your above statement intimates that his previous comeback wasn't absurd. How does it follow that if that first comeback was not absurd if we don't see Mengsk after True Colours but then absurd when we follow it with the comeback in Omega? This muddies your reasoning behind Mengsk's established history of absurd comebacks as explanation for his reappearance in WoL.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Yes he does, otherwise he wouldn't have a massive endgame fleet.
You're saying this: "The fleet is evidence of his political clout because that's what he used to get the fleet". This reasoning is circular and is based off the assumption that he has remaining political clout which you have not established that he actually still has. We can say he has no political clout because it's quite clear that his Dominion (the source of his political clout) is in ashes. What do you have?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
But even so, I don't understand your argument. Raynor is weaker in Wings of Liberty than he was at the end of StarCraft and that demonstrates an improbable recovery? Aren't you complaing about Mengsk because he's stronger than he was at the end of Brood War?
The contention is not that he's stronger, but that he's still there at all wielding the same amount of power (if not more) as if nothing happened.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
I think you skipped over an important part
How so? I formulated that reply based on that hypothetical you gave. Mengsk is an individual first and foremost. Simply lumping a generalised attribute of the KMC and Umojans does not mean everything human there thinks like that. Even then, the source of upheaval may not even come from them since Mengsk came from an even smaller group (comparatively to the KMC and Umojans) called the Sons of Korhal which are all generally lumped as "Pirate militias".
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
You three are the ones attaching undue importance to Mengsk's words here, saying things like "he had nothing left but empty words and promises". I'm just trying to be nice and argue on your own terms. Of course you're wrong, you don't need to convince me of that.
I don't understand your reply here. You're asking us to explain our reasoning and then say we're doing it wrong? :confused: Sorry for not meeting your standards.:rolleyes:
All I was trying to say was that the subtext for the possible disappearance of Mengsk/Dominion or at least a weak version of it mired with other opposition was more strongly hinted than that the Mengsk and the Dominion are invincible.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
The only Terran world that we see get destroyed in Brood War is Korhal. So if you're going to say that the Dominion is ashes, you've got to assume that unmentioned worlds were also devastated. But then you turn your standard on its head for the other Terran factions and assume that unmentioned worlds are fine.
No we don't. The Dominion is an empire with it's centre (being of more import than most types of government) being at Korhal. All it takes to topple the empire is to topple the seat of power. Besides, the rest of the Terran worlds available to Mengsk were the Confederate ones and they were all pretty much destroyed already.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
He still has part of the fleet. Are you saying he lost face because he didn't eradicate the Zerg without suffering any casualties?
An ineffectual remainder of a fleet. How do you know that Mengsk's suppliers won't seek an explanation for his losses and question his capacity to lead? What makes you think they are weaker than Mengsk and won't want to try and muscle in on the action? This is what I mean by losing face.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
They don't need to.
Exactly. Such parties would think they lost at the time and, I for one, would be itching to know details and ask questions.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
You're just making stuff up because you're unwilling to admit that Mengsk got himself a fleet in days for Omega. It was his fleet. He didn't "borrow" it, he didn't "have to beg" for it, and it was a Dominion fleet. There is no reason to deny what the game makes clear other than that it pokes a gaping hole in your position. Give me any reason to believe it wasn't a Dominion fleet, despite the game saying it is.
I never denied that he can obtain a fleet (he did that with Duke and all of Alpha Squadron afterall), I was trying to explain the naming convention as shown in the victory screen as being shaky evidence. It could been written for the sake of convenience and ease of parsing for all we know. Afterall, the game lists the PC cerebrates brood in Sc1 as Jormungand when we are not even Araq. And, if I'm not mistaken, BW also lists formerly eradicated broods in Garm appearing and also shows the brown cerebrate in command of the Grendel brood still being alive after being killed by Dark Templar in Sc1.
