Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Very much this! If BW showed Mengsk actually leading the Terrans competently, then Rag's theories would have some traction. Given that Mengsk had lost so much face throughout BW, one really has to stretch and make up idealistic reasons to ever explain how he got back his power let alone improve things over the span of 4 years in a way that outstripped the developments made by the Confederacy, who in comparison held power for nearly two centuries and yet share a similar ethos and style in governing.

Saying that Mengsk's continued existence and power going into Sc2 is justified because he showed smarts in Sc1 (which itself can be debated in light of what happens with his character in BW) and because he could whip up a fleet for the final battle would mean that you've have to willfully ignore the other overt things like his underlying superficial nature and actual incompetence he displays in BW.

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Well, you have to consider how much the people know about Mengsk. For sure he wouldn't admit that he was working with Kerrigan to get Korhal back in BW, and few actually saw him be a huge coward in front of Kerri. Also, there's no particular reason why most people would favor the UED over Mengsk. The UED is an organization that does not understand the K Sector, and given the beginning cutscene of BW, they don't seem to have much concern over the lives of regular people. Some might have actually welcomed Mengsk back after he retook Korhal, seeing Kerrigan's departure from Korhal as a retreat rather than the spite that it was. It always gets on my nerves how in every single SC novel ever, the writers always assume that their characters, nobodies in the Starcraft universe, know everything about Mengsk that the players do.

Not that you don't have a point, I'm just saying that you have to consider that misinformation is something Mengsk generally excels at, SC2 aside.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

Well, you have to consider how much the people know about Mengsk. For sure he wouldn't admit that he was working with Kerrigan to get Korhal back in BW, and few actually saw him be a huge coward in front of Kerri. Also, there's no particular reason why most people would favor the UED over Mengsk. The UED is an organization that does not understand the K Sector, and given the beginning cutscene of BW, they don't seem to have much concern over the lives of regular people. Some might have actually welcomed Mengsk back after he retook Korhal, seeing Kerrigan's departure from Korhal as a retreat rather than the spite that it was. It always gets on my nerves how in every single SC novel ever, the writers always assume that their characters, nobodies in the Starcraft universe, know everything about Mengsk that the players do.

Not that you don't have a point, I'm just saying that you have to consider that misinformation is something Mengsk generally excels at, SC2 aside.

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Yeah but the people of Korhal aren't blind. They would have seen the Zerg attack Korhal which drove off the UED. That was the REAL reason for Korhal back in Dominion hands. Raynor and Fenix's forces did their share, and certainly a lot more than Mengsk, but the people didn't notice it that way.

So to the people, the swarm did most of the work.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

Yeah but the people of Korhal aren't blind. They would have seen the Zerg attack Korhal which drove off the UED. That was the REAL reason for Korhal back in Dominion hands. Raynor and Fenix's forces did their share, and certainly a lot more than Mengsk, but the people didn't notice it that way.

So to the people, the swarm did most of the work.

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Think about it. Sure, the swarm drove off the UED, but Kerrigan left Korhal after that. She left Mengsk to lick his wounds, allowing him ample opportunity to spin it in a way that he drove her off in battle, rather than Kerri kicking his butt and leaving because she felt like it. No one knows why Kerri left, only that she did.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

Think about it. Sure, the swarm drove off the UED, but Kerrigan left Korhal after that. She left Mengsk to lick his wounds, allowing him ample opportunity to spin it in a way that he drove her off in battle, rather than Kerri kicking his butt and leaving because she felt like it. No one knows why Kerri left, only that she did.

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She left because only the UED's power on Char posed any threat to her, but you're right in that the civilians wouldn't see that. Even so, they would have known it's not a REAL Dominion victory.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

Yeah but the people of Korhal aren't blind. They would have seen the Zerg attack Korhal which drove off the UED.

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Would they? The UED brought their Broods to Korhal. Can the average Dominion civilian tell two Broods apart? Wouldn't it look like the UED lost control over the monsters and Mengsk seized the opportunity to reclaim Korhal?

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Except that's my point. Mengsk builds the Dominion from the shattered remnants of the old Confederacy, then gets his power completely broken by the UED, then becomes relevant again, then gets broken and abandoned among the ashes of his empire by Kerrigan, then gets relevant again and broken again in Omega, all this occurs in the span of, what, one month? And people are absolutely fine with this, but then it's apparently a plot hole that he's able to do this once in five years? Do you have any evidence that his defeat in Omega is more serious-for-real-we-mean-it-this-time than the others? By all appearances, this is the least insane of all the times Mengsk has bounced back.

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Whether Mengsk actually becomes "relevant" again by his own merit after having been freed by Raynor and Kerrigan is debatable. Again, whether he is considered "relevant" to the same degree as before when making his appearance in Omega is another. In BW, there is this progression of him seemingly dipping into a well that is quickly becoming dry.

The issue isn't that he can't/shouldn't comeback at all specifically but rather that the setup in BW heavily implies that Mengsk will have a hard time of it. Five years is actually a very short period of time to recover and actualyy become "so much better than before" when you consider that throughout BW, Mengsk's position became eroded to levels that would put him, at the least (if not worse), on equal footing with any other viable contender willing and having their own resources to push their agenda. Any "intelligence" we think he displayed in Sc1 was countered by his incompetence in BW (heck even in Sc1, he keeps on relying on Duke for crying out loud!). You may not like how BW's story turned out or it's outcomes, but you can't just the ignore clear signposting of Mengsk's direction there.

This is where Sc2's depiction of the Dominion and Mengsk becomes problematic. That they are powerful again is not really the core of the problem nor is it an isolated issue viewed on its own but rather that there is no continuity from the blows he took in BW nor the acknowledgement of the sheer incompetency he displays into account. It's much like the issue of the lack of progression/consistency in Raynor's character from BW into Sc2. It is arguable that "nothing really happens in BW" when looking at Sc1/BW alone, but when you look at Sc1, BW and Sc2 together, BW becomes utterly and completely pointless for real.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Not at all. I've argued on this site repeatedly about the retcon of the Protoss victory on Aiur. This is stuff that is explicitly mentioned in the StarCraft epilogue, yet fans were willing to perform all kinds of acrobatics to explain how it wasn't a contradiction from Obi-Wan's point of view. Yet the interpretation of a 'good Overmind' must be firmly held onto despite it being only possibly implied, and despite being clearly refuted by the authours?

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You should also keep in mind that I agreed with you, in principle, that the beginning of BW does contradict the ending of Sc1.

This scenario is a little different. We had to have a "proper canonical continuation" in BW to contradict the ending of Sc1, whereas we have nothing of the sort with the 'good' Overmind except some random "Word of God" from the authors that most other people would not be even aware of. I doubt that there will ever be any elucidation of this in any other future release, so people are justified in their "wtf?" at seeing something like this. Also, Sc2 is a "proper canonical continuation" showing the revelation (it is presented in such manner, which in itself speak volumes about how one should interpret it) of the Overmind possibly being 'good' when in the previous iterations it was clearly not - like what BW did to Sc1' ending. Those people are having the same sort of reaction you had, really. I'm well aware of the irony (and possible hypocrisy) of the thing mind you, but at the least, I like to think I've been consistent with my thoughts on this matter.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

Well, you have to consider how much the people know about Mengsk. For sure he wouldn't admit that he was working with Kerrigan to get Korhal back in BW, and few actually saw him be a huge coward in front of Kerri. Also, there's no particular reason why most people would favor the UED over Mengsk. The UED is an organization that does not understand the K Sector, and given the beginning cutscene of BW, they don't seem to have much concern over the lives of regular people. Some might have actually welcomed Mengsk back after he retook Korhal, seeing Kerrigan's departure from Korhal as a retreat rather than the spite that it was. It always gets on my nerves how in every single SC novel ever, the writers always assume that their characters, nobodies in the Starcraft universe, know everything about Mengsk that the players do.

Not that you don't have a point, I'm just saying that you have to consider that misinformation is something Mengsk generally excels at, SC2 aside.

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I'm not trying to insult you or anyone else by saying this, but I think it is rather myopic to think that Mengsk is the one and only person to have the cajones and capability to lead the Terrans aside from the UED. Indeed, to think so would be you buying into Mengsk's propaganda (keeping in mind that his mastery of it is really just an informed attribute). Just because we haven't been privy to any other contenders doesn't mean that there are no others chomping at the bit. This is especially considering that the Terrans, as a people, are a fickle bunch who will opportunistically hitch their wagon to whichever horse they feel is going to come out on top (Mengsk never feels like he'll be on top of things throughout BW) and have plenty of "depth" (in regards to the culture, temperament and overall environment) to produce many other Mengsk-like individuals.

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I know that, and this is why to all the Dominion people that hated Mengsk out there, I just don't understand why the hell they DIDN'T take the chance. Sure, Mengsk kept things in good order, but the only reason humanity survived AT ALL after the Brood War was because Kerrigan took the swarm back to Char and disappeared from sight for the next 4 years.

In other words, humanity's "survival" was due to sheer dumb luck, not any of Mengsk's skills or anything like that.

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Pretty much. It didn't happen because the writers said "nope, we want a Mengsk stronger than ever".
Also, you know that this blaming mass casualties on the victims was complete bullshit, right?

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Would they? The UED brought their Broods to Korhal. Can the average Dominion civilian tell two Broods apart? Wouldn't it look like the UED lost control over the monsters and Mengsk seized the opportunity to reclaim Korhal?

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That sounds unlikely, for several reasons.

Seeing a giant wave of Zerg attacking the capital would have made every person in Augustgrad support the UED. It makes far more sense to have Arcturus broadcast a message like "we have our own Zerg brood, and we are coming!" so that his supporters would also attack the UED.
Arcturus' own forces had to know they were allied with some Zerg. The surprise attack in True Colors wouldn't have been a surprise if they didn't think the Zerg were on their side.
Last but not least, the UED probably had an idea what was going on, and Arcturus actually working with alien powers is Christmas for their propagandists: "Citizen Mengsk is begging the help of an infested Terran!".

Besides, even assuming the people believed the obvious line of "Dominion resistance forced the beast-like Zerg to abandon Korhal!", Mengsk's forces got trounced as a matter of fact. The people who might be in a position to challenge Arcturus are also in a position to know exactly what happened.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I'm not trying to insult you or anyone else by saying this, but I think it is rather myopic to think that Mengsk is the one and only person to have the cajones and capability to lead the Terrans aside from the UED. Indeed, to think so would be you buying into Mengsk's propaganda (keeping in mind that his mastery of it is really just an informed attribute). Just because we haven't been privy to any other contenders doesn't mean that there are no others chomping at the bit. This is especially considering that the Terrans, as a people, are a fickle bunch who will opportunistically hitch their wagon to whichever horse they feel is going to come out on top (Mengsk never feels like he'll be on top of things throughout BW) and have plenty of "depth" (in regards to the culture, temperament and overall environment) to produce many other Mengsk-like individuals.

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That's not the point I was trying to make. I wasn't saying there were no competitors, I was just trying to point out that normal civilians wouldn't know the full story about Mengsk, and that there's a difference between the player and a person living as a Starcraft character.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Would they? The UED brought their Broods to Korhal. Can the average Dominion civilian tell two Broods apart? Wouldn't it look like the UED lost control over the monsters and Mengsk seized the opportunity to reclaim Korhal?

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True, but if we follow THAT example, that's still not a Dominion victory. That would only mean the UED were arrogant and incompetent, thinking they could control the Zerg in such a way, and it came back to bite them.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

That's not the point I was trying to make. I wasn't saying there were no competitors, I was just trying to point out that normal civilians wouldn't know the full story about Mengsk, and that there's a difference between the player and a person living as a Starcraft character.

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See, this is why it took Raynor so long to nail Mengsk to the wall in WoL. He knew what happened on Tarsonis, but the civilian didn't, and thus it was his word against Mengsk's. And since Mengsk's word was the law, Raynor's word meant nothing.

That's why it wasn't until finding the adjutant in WoL that Raynor was able to do what he did.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Whether Mengsk actually becomes "relevant" again by his own merit after having been freed by Raynor and Kerrigan is debatable. Again, whether he is considered "relevant" to the same degree as before when making his appearance in Omega is another. In BW, there is this progression of him seemingly dipping into a well that is quickly becoming dry.

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Well, the whole point of True Colors is that Kerrigan considers him (or more accurately Duke and his forces) a threat, Kerrigan obviously considers him relevant. There's no indication that he's "dipping in a well that is quickly becoming dry", he doesn't sound increasingly desperate, his reaction to defeat in Omega is the same as in Emperor's Fall - he swears that he'll be back soon.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

The issue isn't that he can't/shouldn't comeback at all specifically but rather that the setup in BW heavily implies that Mengsk will have a hard time of it. Five years is actually a very short period of time to recover and actualyy become "so much better than before" when you consider that throughout BW, Mengsk's position became eroded to levels that would put him, at the least (if not worse), on equal footing with any other viable contender willing and having their own resources to push their agenda. Any "intelligence" we think he displayed in Sc1 was countered by his incompetence in BW (heck even in Sc1, he keeps on relying on Duke for crying out loud!). You may not like how BW's story turned out or it's outcomes, but you can't just the ignore clear signposting of Mengsk's direction there.

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Actually, you'll find that I pointed out Mengsk's stupidity in Brood War long ago. And yes, rebuilding his empire that well in only five years is incredibly improbable, but it's actually far more plausible than previously established events. I point out those other two times that Mengsk became relevant after being deposed within the span of about one month in Brood War, but that's not all - I remember in another thread some time ago I argued that the Terrans should have been the strongest faction after StarCraft after humanity was united by Mengsk and the Protoss and Zerg slaughtered each other on Aiur, and someone proved me wrong by quoting the opening to Overmind:

"The Swarms have crushed the meager human resistance and laid waste to nine of the thirteen Terran worlds."

This is what the sate of humanity was like before Mengsk built his empire the first time, in only a few months.

And then of course there's the logistics behind the UED invasion, which are the most staggeringly insane of the lot.

I'm not saying that Mengsk's recuperation for Wings of Liberty isn't insane by realistic standards, I'm saying that it is staggeringly sane by Brood War's standards. So why has this suddenly become a problem now?

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

It's much like the issue of the lack of progression/consistency in Raynor's character from BW into Sc2.

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This is also not something I consider problematic in Wings of Liberty. Raynor's character progression isn't complicated, anger isn't an emotion with a lot of staying power. Nor is there any sign that Raynor has abandoned the notion that Kerrigan needs to be killed, not until Valerian shows up with his magic plot device. When the anger subsides, all he's left with is the realisation that he's going to have to kill the woman he loves, and he keeps trying to avoid it. The alcoholism, his interactions with Horner, distracting himself by focusing on Mengsk, it's all pretty consistent.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

You should also keep in mind that I agreed with you, in principle, that the beginning of BW does contradict the ending of Sc1.

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Yeah, I wasn't talking about you.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

This scenario is a little different. We had to have a "proper canonical continuation" in BW to contradict the ending of Sc1, whereas we have nothing of the sort with the 'good' Overmind except some random "Word of God" from the authors that most other people would not be even aware of. I doubt that there will ever be any elucidation of this in any other future release, so people are justified in their "wtf?" at seeing something like this. Also, Sc2 is a "proper canonical continuation" showing the revelation (it is presented in such manner, which in itself speak volumes about how one should interpret it) of the Overmind possibly being 'good' when in the previous iterations it was clearly not - like what BW did to Sc1' ending. Those people are having the same sort of reaction you had, really. I'm well aware of the irony (and possible hypocrisy) of the thing mind you, but at the least, I like to think I've been consistent with my thoughts on this matter.

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Sure, but I totally believe that the Overmind was never supposed to be 'good', I don't think this is some kind of damage control, just shoddy writing. I'm convinced that the entire Prophecy arc is an unfinished product, it doesn't conform to the standards or the rest of Wings of Liberty, which while still having numerous flaws, was pretty consistent with what it was trying to do.

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Originally Posted by Telenil

Seeing a giant wave of Zerg attacking the capital would have made every person in Augustgrad support the UED. It makes far more sense to have Arcturus broadcast a message like "we have our own Zerg brood, and we are coming!" so that his supporters would also attack the UED.

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Except that, as I said, the UED are the ones who brought the Zerg to Korhal. How would the civilians know that these are other Zergs, and not just the UED pets turning against them?

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Originally Posted by Telenil

Arcturus' own forces had to know they were allied with some Zerg. The surprise attack in True Colors wouldn't have been a surprise if they didn't think the Zerg were on their side.

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You think Mengsk's forces were local guerillas or freedom fighters? I'm pretty sure he came in with his army from elsewhere, just like Kerrigan and Fenix.

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Originally Posted by Telenil

Last but not least, the UED probably had an idea what was going on, and Arcturus actually working with alien powers is Christmas for their propagandists: "Citizen Mengsk is begging the help of an infested Terran!".

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Brood War is pretty clear that the UED knows nothing about Kerrigan (somehow... for some reason...) and Wings of Liberty is also clear that it is not known even in the Dominion that 'The Queen of Blades' is an infested Terran.

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Originally Posted by Telenil

Besides, even assuming the people believed the obvious line of "Dominion resistance forced the beast-like Zerg to abandon Korhal!", Mengsk's forces got trounced as a matter of fact. The people who might be in a position to challenge Arcturus are also in a position to know exactly what happened.

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Yeah, but pretty much everyone got trounced at some point or another. How many cored victories?

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

True, but if we follow THAT example, that's still not a Dominion victory. That would only mean the UED were arrogant and incompetent, thinking they could control the Zerg in such a way, and it came back to bite them.

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How does taking advantage of your enemies' mistakes to succeed at achieving your objectives not count as a victory?

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Well, the whole point of True Colors is that Kerrigan considers him (or more accurately Duke and his forces) a threat, Kerrigan obviously considers him relevant. There's no indication that he's "dipping in a well that is quickly becoming dry", he doesn't sound increasingly desperate, his reaction to defeat in Omega is the same as in Emperor's Fall - he swears that he'll be back soon.

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The Emperor's Fall defeat was pretty crushing, and I'm sure it was nothing but empty bravado on Mengsk's part. It doesn't make much sense that their victory meant "little" to him. Same with Omega. He spent the majority of his life in rebellion, and believes he can easily replicate his success. That's part of what makes his character stupid in BW.

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Actually, you'll find that I pointed out Mengsk's stupidity in Brood War long ago. And yes, rebuilding his empire that well in only five years is incredibly improbable, but it's actually far more plausible than previously established events. I point out those other two times that Mengsk became relevant after being deposed within the span of about one month in Brood War, but that's not all - I remember in another thread some time ago I argued that the Terrans should have been the strongest faction after StarCraft after humanity was united by Mengsk and the Protoss and Zerg slaughtered each other on Aiur, and someone proved me wrong by quoting the opening to Overmind:

"The Swarms have crushed the meager human resistance and laid waste to nine of the thirteen Terran worlds."

This is what the sate of humanity was like before Mengsk built his empire the first time, in only a few months.

And then of course there's the logistics behind the UED invasion, which are the most staggeringly insane of the lot.

I'm not saying that Mengsk's recuperation for Wings of Liberty isn't insane by realistic standards, I'm saying that it is staggeringly sane by Brood War's standards. So why has this suddenly become a problem now?

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There's no evidence that he "recovered" anything. He was hacked down piece by piece in BW. The end result is him wielding a mere minuscule of the amount of power that he once had. In SC2 he pulls assets that he doesn't have or shouldn't even exist out of nowhere. It's a completely different situation.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

How does taking advantage of your enemies' mistakes to succeed at achieving your objectives not count as a victory?

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Because it's not really YOUR victory. From the Dominion civilians' POV, if the UED truly lost control over the Zerg broods on Korhal, that's great. But the Dominion army had nothing to do with that.

So, I will say the same thing Glados told Wheatley when Chell put him in control of the Aperture Science Facility: "You didn't do anything. She did all the work."

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Originally Posted by Gradius

The Emperor's Fall defeat was pretty crushing, and I'm sure it was nothing but empty bravado on Mengsk's part. It doesn't make much sense that their victory meant "little" to him. Same with Omega. He spent the majority of his life in rebellion, and believes he can easily replicate his success. That's part of what makes his character stupid in BW.

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Not STUPID per se, Gradius, more like his arrogance was off the charts, THAT'S what cost him in HotS.

Besides, as a politician, he still had plenty of ways to manipulate the people, hence why they still followed him by the end of the Brood War, even though they had plenty of reasons not to.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

The Emperor's Fall defeat was pretty crushing, and I'm sure it was nothing but empty bravado on Mengsk's part. It doesn't make much sense that their victory meant "little" to him. Same with Omega. He spent the majority of his life in rebellion, and believes he can easily replicate his success. That's part of what makes his character stupid in BW.

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Exactly. And yet he still recovered from his pretty crushing defeat in Emperor's Fall, twice, so there is no reason to think that given 60 times the amount of time, he couldn't recover from his similarly crushing defeat in Omega.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

There's no evidence that he "recovered" anything. He was hacked down piece by piece in BW.

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Yes there is. His power was a threat that had to be dealt with. Twice. That's clear evidence that he recovered. What there is no evidence of is that he was "hacked piece by piece". Or that his defeat in Omega was worse than his defeat in True Colors.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

Because it's not really YOUR victory. From the Dominion civilians' POV, if the UED truly lost control over the Zerg broods on Korhal, that's great. But the Dominion army had nothing to do with that.

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Yes they did. They took advantage of the chaos to kick out both the UED and the Zerg. And by your reasoning, Mengsk overthrowing the Confederacy wasn't a victory because it was due to the Confederacy's own dangerous research into the Zerg, killing Zasz wasn't a victory because it was due to Kerrigan's own arrogance and simplicity and Kerrigan never gets a victory in all of Brood War because all her enemies are gullible saps.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Yes there is. His power was a threat that had to be dealt with. Twice. That's clear evidence that he recovered. What there is no evidence of is that he was "hacked piece by piece". Or that his defeat in Omega was worse than his defeat in True Colors.

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Yeah, but do you think the public could be kept in the dark about such a defeat INDEFINITELY? Remember, NO ONE knew at the end of BW that the Zerg would suddenly vanish from sight for the next 4 years, which means the civilian population was still in a state of panic as to what to do if the Zerg invade again. After all, the knew that despite Korhal back in Dominion hands, the UED had decimated the Dominion military.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Yes they did. They took advantage of the chaos to kick out both the UED and the Zerg. And by your reasoning, Mengsk overthrowing the Confederacy wasn't a victory because it was due to the Confederacy's own dangerous research into the Zerg, killing Zasz wasn't a victory because it was due to Kerrigan's own arrogance and simplicity and Kerrigan never gets a victory in all of Brood War because all her enemies are gullible saps.

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True, I'll give you that one from the Dominion civilians' POV. Still, I just feel there had to be some who felt the numbers don't add up.

Technically Kerrigan's enemies WERE stupid in Brood War.

Killing Zasz you could have said the same thing because her arrogance WAS high, only forced down at the end of WoL.

In that event, we could also say Tassadar's actions in killing the Overmind wasn't a real victory either because the swarm just swapped one leader for another.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

That's not the point I was trying to make. I wasn't saying there were no competitors, I was just trying to point out that normal civilians wouldn't know the full story about Mengsk, and that there's a difference between the player and a person living as a Starcraft character.

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What normal civilians would know could easily tie into the presence of other competitors. How else could Mengsk have been able climb on and lord over the corpse of the Confederacy without denouncing them first? It doesn't really take a genius for someone else to use slander as propaganda. Any competitor would have plenty of ammunition due to Mengsk's display in BW - there would be plenty of witnesses to his defeat at the hands of the UED. I'd be surprised that many wouldn't want and try to defect to some other cause to get off the sinking ship that was Mengsk's Dominion.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

There's no indication that he's "dipping in a well that is quickly becoming dry", he doesn't sound increasingly desperate, his reaction to defeat in Omega is the same as in Emperor's Fall - he swears that he'll be back soon.

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What, so you think that Mengsk can seemingly take infinite body blows without nary a consequence and that that's OK? Besides, a man such as Mengsk, who is so full of himself, would never let on that he's on a downward spiral. Doesn't mean that that's evidence that he's invincible and godly forever more...

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Actually, you'll find that I pointed out Mengsk's stupidity in Brood War long ago.

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That was never in doubt. I was highlighting that specifically as another reason for Mengsk's improbability of coming back.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

And yes, rebuilding his empire that well in only five years is incredibly improbable, but it's actually far more plausible than previously established events. I point out those other two times that Mengsk became relevant after being deposed within the span of about one month in Brood War, but that's not all - I remember in another thread some time ago I argued that the Terrans should have been the strongest faction after StarCraft after humanity was united by Mengsk and the Protoss and Zerg slaughtered each other on Aiur, and someone proved me wrong by quoting the opening to Overmind:

"The Swarms have crushed the meager human resistance and laid waste to nine of the thirteen Terran worlds."

This is what the sate of humanity was like before Mengsk built his empire the first time, in only a few months.

And then of course there's the logistics behind the UED invasion, which are the most staggeringly insane of the lot.

I'm not saying that Mengsk's recuperation for Wings of Liberty isn't insane by realistic standards, I'm saying that it is staggeringly sane by Brood War's standards. So why has this suddenly become a problem now?

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It is a problem because you seem to be taking take this situation as a vaccumm with no regard to consequence or hint of cause and effect.

As I said before, the question of whether Mengsk ever becomes relevant in BW is debatable and you yourself then admit that when you mentioned his "relevancy" it was in terms of a subjective POV of the characters in that universe. If one were to step back and consider the perspective of one outside looking in, Mengsk is not objectively a relevent threat to anyone in BW. What relevency he had after his rescue was only because Kerrigan and Raynor permitted him to have it. The Terran force he "commands" are remnant of what was left after his capture - with the rest being most likely pressed into UED holdings or destroyed. When his remaining loyal army (a mere shadow of what is was before the UED usurped him) is crushed in True Colours he has to make concessions and rely on his 'silver tongue' as a last resort to round up and borrow a fleet on the proviso he kill Kerrigan with it. He then proceeds to fail to live up to that promise. He is now indebted to others whilst having nothing of his own to wager now. There is no way his silver tongue can get him out of that situation. So, by the end of BW, Mengsk has literally lost everything!

As to the size of Mengsk's empire at the end of Rebel Yell, there are really no indications of how strong the Terrans could potentially be. Taking into account the loss of nine (of thirteen) core worlds and that both his ventures (through Duke) against the Zerg and the Protoss in Sc1 fail miserably, it would be overly optimistic to think the Terrans would have any chance even with Mengsk at the helm. It's also important to note that The Inauguration cinematic is propaganda, not a true reflection of actual Terran might/capability.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

This is also not something I consider problematic in Wings of Liberty. Raynor's character progression isn't complicated, anger isn't an emotion with a lot of staying power. Nor is there any sign that Raynor has abandoned the notion that Kerrigan needs to be killed, not until Valerian shows up with his magic plot device. When the anger subsides, all he's left with is the realisation that he's going to have to kill the woman he loves, and he keeps trying to avoid it. The alcoholism, his interactions with Horner, distracting himself by focusing on Mengsk, it's all pretty consistent.

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There's a lot I could say about this but I and many others have said it before and more succinctly. Simply put, there is no progression of Raynor's character from BW into Sc2 and that's the problem. You can transplant Sc1 Raynor directly into Sc2 without knowledge of BW and you'd be none the wiser.

Saying "anger isn't an emotion without staying power" is fraught with problems because how one feels an emotion is, by and large, relative. I could just as easily say "love isn't an emotion with a lot of staying power" too and cite numerous cases throughout the history of all humankind to easily support that notion. Also, to say Raynor always had that sort of "everlasting love" with Kerrigan is debatable. There was a connection sure, but "everlasting love"? Besides, I think that anger (and frustration) is perhaps the only one thing that Raynor feels in WoL and what is keeping him going. Otherwise, why drink if he's not angry with himself? Why wage war with Mengsk, if not being angry (albeit somewhat misplaced and projected) at his decision to leave Kerrigan at New Gettysburg? Why does he let go of this specific anger he has towards Kerrigan then? We are never given any possible reason to answer that last question anywhere in WoL. That is a problem when you're working with a sequel, which naturally implies some sort of continuity/consistency or an acknowledgement of previous things before changing something wholesale on, what looks like, a whim.

As to Raynor not abandoning the notion of killing Kerrigan, that is with the presumption that the audience member has played BW. Not knowing that history (and even then if you did know it), there is a definite and legitimate cause for some to interpret that Raynor never intended to kill her from the start just by his forlorn looks at Kerrigan's picture. People note that something has changed here.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Sure, but I totally believe that the Overmind was never supposed to be 'good', I don't think this is some kind of damage control, just shoddy writing.

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Just like I think that everyone else believes that the Overmind was never supposed to be good either. That's why all the contention and hoo-haa erupted when they seemingly opened the door for such an interpretation to be made possible.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Actually, you'll find that I pointed out Mengsk's stupidity in Brood War long ago. And yes, rebuilding his empire that well in only five years is incredibly improbable, but it's actually far more plausible than previously established events. I point out those other two times that Mengsk became relevant after being deposed within the span of about one month in Brood War...

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This right here is a big problem with Starcraft. It's not just Mengsk who has been doing some quick recovering, but everything else is just too dang fast as well. If the entirety of Starcraft and BW were to have taken place in one year, that's a lot of doing. That would mean that Mengsk destroyed the Confederacy, Aiur fell, Shakuras' battles happened, the UED defeated Mengsk, and Kerrigan trounced everybody all in less than the span of a year. A war on Earth can last several years, but a battle between several planets takes a month or two? Mengsk fighting the Confederacy by itself could have taken half a decade. Then Aiur, the homeworld of a race that can blow up entire planets, takes less than a year to defeat? Does Aldaris suck that bad at strategy?

While I'm willing to assume that some of the events of Brood War took place at the same time (with Kerri on Shakuras and Duran over with the UED, it's easy enough to believe that much of the Protoss and Terran missions happened concurrently), there's no way the entirety of these two games took just one year. While before SC2 came out, we could sort of ignore the deflation of time (I don't believe a timeline was established, though I could be wrong), but then new lore steps in and makes an artificial open period of four years for no reason.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

There's a lot I could say about this but I and many others have said it before and more succinctly. Simply put, there is no progression of Raynor's character from BW into Sc2 and that's the problem. You can transplant Sc1 Raynor directly into Sc2 without knowledge of BW and you'd be none the wiser.

Saying "anger isn't an emotion without staying power" is fraught with problems because how one feels an emotion is, by and large, relative. I could just as easily say "love isn't an emotion with a lot of staying power" too and cite numerous cases throughout the history of all humankind to easily support that notion. Also, to say Raynor always had that sort of "everlasting love" with Kerrigan is debatable. There was a connection sure, but "everlasting love"? Besides, I think that anger (and frustration) is perhaps the only one thing that Raynor feels in WoL and what is keeping him going. Otherwise, why drink if he's not angry with himself? Why wage war with Mengsk, if not being angry (albeit somewhat misplaced and projected) at his decision to leave Kerrigan at New Gettysburg? Why does he let go of this specific anger he has towards Kerrigan then? We are never given any possible reason to answer that last question anywhere in WoL. That is a problem when you're working with a sequel, which naturally implies some sort of continuity/consistency or an acknowledgement of previous things before changing something wholesale on, what looks like, a whim.

As to Raynor not abandoning the notion of killing Kerrigan, that is with the presumption that the audience member has played BW. Not knowing that history (and even then if you did know it), there is a definite and legitimate cause for some to interpret that Raynor never intended to kill her from the start just by his forlorn looks at Kerrigan's picture. People note that something has changed here.

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See, this was the problem Blizzard REALLY messed up from BW to WoL. They had NEVER stated Raynor's anger towards Kerrigan's actions in "True Colors" eventually turned to guilt. Blizzard claimed Raynor had felt this way by the end of BW, but they had never stated it, not even in WoL.

As a result, the transition of anger to guilt made no sense. Ok fine it's been 4 years, but still.

I don't believe anger and frustration was all that kept Raynor going. He knew by the end of BW that getting Kerrigan back was near impossible, hence why he turned back to dealing with Mengsk. Raynor felt Mengsk did not deserve to walk away from all this. He made it clear in WoL that he would never rest until Mengsk was brought to justice. That was one of those things that kept him going, even though the rebellions weren't having the effect he wanted.

For the beginning of WoL just by him looking at the pic of Kerrigan, it doesn't take a genius to know he still wanted her back. The only matter people didn't know was what made him ultimately abandon his vow.

In retrospect, some may have thought he didn't abandon it at all. After the Monlyth mission in getting the 2nd artifact, and Matt had asked him if he was ok, Raynor told him that Kerrigan had to be stopped, one way or another. This implied that Raynor knew he still had to kill her.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

This right here is a big problem with Starcraft... but everything else is just too dang fast as well.

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I've touched on this before but you make an interesting point that's worth considering. Wouldn't things moving "too dang fast" justify the Dominion's speedy recovery? If things already happen so quickly in one year than five years is, relatively, a lot of time for lots of things to happen quickly, right? It's funny how that justification falls apart when in all that time, there are conveniently no other real big significant changes in status quo or conflicts throughout that time.

One could easily ask why hasn't Aiur been recaptured yet? Why hasn't Raynor's anger returned when he realised 3 years (why not? it's just as arbitrary as anything else) into it that shifting to self-guilt was doing him no good? It's been 5 years afterall. Why is the 5 year excuse acceptable for somethings, big or small, and not others? All in all, lazy and shoddy writing is the answer for all.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Exactly. And yet he still recovered from his pretty crushing defeat in Emperor's Fall, twice, so there is no reason to think that given 60 times the amount of time, he couldn't recover from his similarly crushing defeat in Omega.

Yes there is. His power was a threat that had to be dealt with. Twice. That's clear evidence that he recovered. What there is no evidence of is that he was "hacked piece by piece". Or that his defeat in Omega was worse than his defeat in True Colors.

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That's not evidence he recovered. He was the commander of multiple systems of planets. Korhal was sacked, but he can still draw forces from other places. With each defeat, his reputation and military was downgraded. He went from 100% to 50% to 10%. It's like a volume knob, not a on/off switch.

And yes, his 10% at Omega wasn't enough to do much at all. All of Kerrigan's broods were on the surface of Char and a single Cerebrate defeated him and two other forces that were also shadows of their former power. Pretty consistent.

Nice to know that my little mention of the Dominion at the top of page 4 turned this into a full-blown debate regarding if their bullshyt return to all-powerful in WoL was justified or not (No, no it wasn't). It always feels good knowing I wasn't the only one that had a problem with this.

My favorite contradiction regarding the whole Dominion falling apart ordeal had to be Kerrigan's line to Mengsk at the end of True Colors which basically outright confirmed that the writer's intent in BW was to have Mengsk fall apart, and that Kerrigan would never allow Mengsk to return to power while she was alive and kicking people down...then comes WoL, and he somehow does just that, and even somehow poses a threat in HotS. Ya...great job there Kerrigan! You sure kept him down for the count for four years!

I already mentioned before that what I dislike the most about the Dominion's sudden rebirth is that it is a complete failure of continuation. Throughout Brood War, I was led to believe that the losses we, the player, were inflicting against Mengsk was weakening him as time went on. That as every battle went by, the Dominion was slowly falling apart thanks to our action. Wings of Liberty comes around, and suddenly, you realize that everything that you had done to them previously throughout Brood War was all for naught; filler that could be easily skipped over as it didn't amount to anything important in the long run; not even a single glimpse of struggle to rebuild (Hell, Mengsk has even wasted trillions of dollars just to chase a single terrorist down!). Sure, Duke is gone, but it's not like Mengsk is struggling in any way without his supposed top general. He might as well have just painted his skin blank, and renamed himself Warfield for all I care. They share a course of incompetence after all.

Sad thing is, they fell into this exact problem again regarding the Korhal rebellion from WoL to HotS. What is it about the transition between games that the writers always fail to accomplish a legitimate continuation? Even the switch from Sc1 to BW, people found to be questionable regarding Aiur suddenly being impossible to live in.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

That's not evidence he recovered. He was the commander of multiple systems of planets. Korhal was sacked, but he can still draw forces from other places. With each defeat, his reputation and military was downgraded. He went from 100% to 50% to 10%. It's like a volume knob, not a on/off switch.

And yes, his 10% at Omega wasn't enough to do much at all. All of Kerrigan's broods were on the surface of Char and a single Cerebrate defeated him and two other forces that were also shadows of their former power. Pretty consistent.

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Which is yet another annoyance at Blizzard's action of the Dominion's empire by WoL and HotS. It made it seem like after Korhal fell, the UED did very little to annex the rest of the Dominion empire, even though that was their goal for the sector from the very beginning of the BW terran campaign.

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Originally Posted by RetlocLive

My favorite contradiction regarding the whole Dominion falling apart ordeal had to be Kerrigan's line to Mengsk at the end of True Colors which basically outright confirmed that the writer's intent in BW was to have Mengsk fall apart, and that Kerrigan would never allow Mengsk to return to power while she was alive and kicking people down...then comes WoL, and he somehow does just that, and even somehow poses a threat in HotS. Ya...great job there Kerrigan! You sure kept him down for the count for four years!

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Well I wouldn't exactly say that, Retlo. If you recall at the BW ending, Kerrigan felt a threat coming (though it wasn't revealed until SC2 to be Amon), and thus made preparations for them. Thus her claim to test her enemies' resolve proved hollow, as she withdrew the swarm to Char to make preparations to deal with Amon.

In that regard, I don't think she was paying too much attention to what was happening on the Dominion end, and therefore did not anticipate Mengsk could return to power and pose an actual THREAT to her.

Remember, at the beginning of WoL, Kate Lockwell was saying the same thing, telling Mengsk that the threat of the Zerg invasion was still real, but instead of building up the fleet, he squandered trillions to hunt down Jim Raynor.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

What, so you think that Mengsk can seemingly take infinite body blows without nary a consequence and that that's OK? Besides, a man such as Mengsk, who is so full of himself, would never let on that he's on a downward spiral. Doesn't mean that that's evidence that he's invincible and godly forever more...

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No, I'm saying Brood War is rife with absurdities like this. The UED invasion is merely the most egregious.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

It is a problem because you seem to be taking take this situation as a vaccumm with no regard to consequence or hint of cause and effect.

As I said before, the question of whether Mengsk ever becomes relevant in BW is debatable and you yourself then admit that when you mentioned his "relevancy" it was in terms of a subjective POV of the characters in that universe. If one were to step back and consider the perspective of one outside looking in, Mengsk is not objectively a relevent threat to anyone in BW. What relevency he had after his rescue was only because Kerrigan and Raynor permitted him to have it. The Terran force he "commands" are remnant of what was left after his capture - with the rest being most likely pressed into UED holdings or destroyed. When his remaining loyal army (a mere shadow of what is was before the UED usurped him) is crushed in True Colours he has to make concessions and rely on his 'silver tongue' as a last resort to round up and borrow a fleet on the proviso he kill Kerrigan with it. He then proceeds to fail to live up to that promise. He is now indebted to others whilst having nothing of his own to wager now. There is no way his silver tongue can get him out of that situation. So, by the end of BW, Mengsk has literally lost everything!

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That's entirely hypothetical, no one has provided me any evidence of this thus far. But even if what you said was true, that'd just be more reason to keep Mengsk in power. How can he repay his debts if he's deposed?

The fact is that after Mengsk was abandoned "in the ashes of his precious Dominion" he was immediately negotiating deals with the Sector's power brokers and commanding one of the most powerful forces in the Sector. You forget that he was one of three fleets in Omega, the other two being the UED and the Protoss. The UED were entirely annihilated, the Dominion and Protoss were beaten back to rebuild. You want to say that makes them irrecoverably weak? Compared to whom? The Zerg, certainly, but they're basically infinitely powerful and this has remained consistent in StarCraft II, which needs to give a plethora of excuses and deus ex machinas for the Dominion not immediately folding whenever they confront the Zerg. So that's entirely consistent. But who else? If you want to believe that Mengsk was incredibly weak, that doesn't mean much, since weakness is a relative term. He was equally strong to the Protoss by the end of Brood War. Can you demonstrate that he is far stronger in StarCraft II? He was infinitely weaker than the Zerg in Brood War, this has not changed with StarCraft II. He leads the strongest Terran faction in StarCraft II, can you demonstrate that this isn't the case at the end of Brood War?

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

There's a lot I could say about this but I and many others have said it before and more succinctly. Simply put, there is no progression of Raynor's character from BW into Sc2 and that's the problem. You can transplant Sc1 Raynor directly into Sc2 without knowledge of BW and you'd be none the wiser.

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Mostly. And this is again because Brood War doesn't progress the story much at all. To demonstrate a problem would require Wings of Liberty's Raynor to contradict progress that was made in Brood War. But he doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

As to Raynor not abandoning the notion of killing Kerrigan, that is with the presumption that the audience member has played BW. Not knowing that history (and even then if you did know it), there is a definite and legitimate cause for some to interpret that Raynor never intended to kill her from the start just by his forlorn looks at Kerrigan's picture. People note that something has changed here.

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The one where he says it would have been better if Kerrigan had died?

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Originally Posted by Gradius

That's not evidence he recovered. He was the commander of multiple systems of planets. Korhal was sacked, but he can still draw forces from other places. With each defeat, his reputation and military was downgraded. He went from 100% to 50% to 10%. It's like a volume knob, not a on/off switch.

And yes, his 10% at Omega wasn't enough to do much at all. All of Kerrigan's broods were on the surface of Char and a single Cerebrate defeated him and two other forces that were also shadows of their former power. Pretty consistent.

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The fact that he went from being abandoned in the ashes of his empire to commanding one of the three most powerful non-Zerg armies in the Sector is not evidence that he recovered.

Very well. I cannot in fact provide any clearer evidence than this, so if you dismiss it there's nothing I can do.However, since it is insignificant to you, I can only conclude that your evidence that he couldn't have recovered after Omega will prove to be superior.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

The fact that he went from being abandoned in the ashes of his empire to commanding one of the three most powerful non-Zerg armies in the Sector is not evidence that he recovered.

Very well. I cannot in fact provide any clearer evidence than this, so if you dismiss it there's nothing I can do.However, since it is insignificant to you, I can only conclude that your evidence that he couldn't have recovered after Omega will prove to be superior.

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It's not a recovery in THAT sense, Fanatic.

It merely meant that because Kerrigan withdrew the Zerg back to Char and disappeared from sight for the next 4 years, the Dominion had time to rebuild. At the beginning of WoL, Kate Lockwell made it clear that Mengsk had allowed the fleet to decay, despite the threat of another Zerg invasion.

All that meant was that by the time of WoL, the Dominion fleet was once again a sizable force, it does NOT mean it was at the strength that it was when the Dominion was first formed.

As for recovery, it also has to be in terms of "recovery compared to who else."

Remember, ever since the Kel-Morian Combine lost the Guild Wars to the Confederacy in 2489, they had NEVER recovered. This was still true even by the time of HotS. The Umojan Protectorate, which had been formed in the aftermath of the Guild Wars, had started off very small, and had to build up little by little. That would explain why by the time of WoL, they were still relatively small, having a very tiny fleet, much smaller than the KMC, though with much better technology and everything.

The Dominion itself, on the other hand, had annexed almost EVERYTHING that had originally belonging to the Confederate empire. This was Blizzard's excuse of not explaining just how vast the Confederate empire is.

That way, by never explaining it, they could say that it had been a LOT bigger than we once thought, allowing MANY other resource worlds (ones that were unscarred from warfare in SC1 and BW) to be added to the Dominion, and THAT was what allowed the Dominion to rise back up in a reasonable time in the aftermath of the BW, when it had been virtually shredded.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

No, I'm saying Brood War is rife with absurdities like this. The UED invasion is merely the most egregious.

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I'm not following your train of thought here. You were the one trying to justify this apparent "absurdity" of Mengsk "coming back again" with a bonafide absurd reason (ie: there was no suggestion he wasn't weakening with each blow he took).

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

That's entirely hypothetical, no one has provided me any evidence of this thus far.

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What's so hypothetical about it? It's no more hypothetical than you're reasoning for Mengsk "coming back" as evidence of him having infinite power. At the least, my hypothetical makes more sense. Just sayin'....

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

But even if what you said was true, that'd just be more reason to keep Mengsk in power. How can he repay his debts if he's deposed?

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Not really. After such a loss, Mengsk will repay his debt by both losing his life and shifting the balance of remaining Terran power to those he owes his debt. On the flip side, even if he did win, Mengsk's Dominion will still be comparably weak and easy prey to manipulation by the other Terran powers he had to seek assistance from. If anything, he would have been beholden to them and would most likely be Emperor in name only. Yet, Sc2 completely dissolves that by saying "Nope, Mengsk is and was always invincible and had an infinite well of power to draw from".

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

The fact is that after Mengsk was abandoned "in the ashes of his precious Dominion" he was immediately negotiating deals with the Sector's power brokers and commanding one of the most powerful forces in the Sector. You forget that he was one of three fleets in Omega, the other two being the UED and the Protoss. The UED were entirely annihilated, the Dominion and Protoss were beaten back to rebuild. You want to say that makes them irrecoverably weak? Compared to whom? The Zerg, certainly, but they're basically infinitely powerful and this has remained consistent in StarCraft II, which needs to give a plethora of excuses and deus ex machinas for the Dominion not immediately folding whenever they confront the Zerg. So that's entirely consistent. But who else? If you want to believe that Mengsk was incredibly weak, that doesn't mean much, since weakness is a relative term. He was equally strong to the Protoss by the end of Brood War. Can you demonstrate that he is far stronger in StarCraft II? He was infinitely weaker than the Zerg in Brood War, this has not changed with StarCraft II. He leads the strongest Terran faction in StarCraft II, can you demonstrate that this isn't the case at the end of Brood War?

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I'm not comparing Mengsk's weakness compared to the other races because, at the time, the Terrans are the weakest race as setup in that universe to begin with. I'm comparing Mengsk's weakness against other Terrans and how is eroded position by the end of BW would make him extremely vulnerable to other elements within the cutthroat dynamics of Terran society. Mengsk and/or his Dominion are just a political party with clout if they can demonstrate power over other Terrans and BW dismantles him completely in that regard. There's nothing wrong in the Terrans rising back up to be as strong as they can be in general, just that the idea that it is Mengsk and his Dominion that are the ones to do it is far-fetched. Given that he's been reduced to a position worse than when he was leader of the Sons of Korhal (he was not indebted to anyone then and had any army built from loyalty not one that was borrowed) to not only rebuild his faction, somehow dominate the top-tier elements to make himself Emperor again and reconstitute the dynamics of his Dominion and then build-up the whole Terran presence to a degree that surpassed even the Confederates nearly two centuries of rule all in 5 years is more difficult to swallow.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Mostly. And this is again because Brood War doesn't progress the story much at all. To demonstrate a problem would require Wings of Liberty's Raynor to contradict progress that was made in Brood War. But he doesn't.

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That's the thing. What little there was in terms of progression for Raynor's character in BW is completely ignored in the sequel. As I said, you can skip BW and be none-the-wiser however in BW, Raynor did show the beginnings of a change in direction for his character. He wasn't going to be the self-pitying sap who takes personal responsibility of the actions of others anymore. We didn't get a chance to explore any of this change before he's back to his usual way again (stereotypical sullen, put-upon hero guy) in Sc2.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

The one where he says it would have been better if Kerrigan had died?

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Still doesn't mean he still wanted to kill her personally.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

The fact that he went from being abandoned in the ashes of his empire to commanding one of the three most powerful non-Zerg armies in the Sector is not evidence that he recovered.

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In what context is he recovered? The fleet he commands is not technically his and it just represents a temporary material gain based on concessions and promises. All that this is evidence of his that he has a high charisma stat... and one that loses it's currency when he backs it up with a defeat.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Still doesn't mean he still wanted to kill her personally.

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Explain why not, Turalyon. After Fenix's death, Raynor vowed to be the man to kill her. Kerrigan even reminded him of this back in the Flashpoint book, and again on the Moros, giving him the chance to fulfill the promise. Thus even by the Flashpoint book, Kerrigan was expecting Raynor to do it.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I'm not following your train of thought here. You were the one trying to justify this apparent "absurdity" of Mengsk "coming back again" with a bonafide absurd reason (ie: there was no suggestion he wasn't weakening with each blow he took).

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I'm just pointing out the double standard. People complained that Mengsk's power in Wings of Liberty makes no sense. I mention that equally absurd or worse events occurred in Brood War and everybody seemed fine with it then. If you're going to go the opposite angle and argue that things must make sense until proven otherwise, then apply that same standard to Wings of Liberty. Demonstrate that Mengsk is in an unrealistically good position in StarCraft II compared to the position he was in at the end of Brood War. I don't really mind which angle you choose to approach this from, I merely desire consistency.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I'm not comparing Mengsk's weakness compared to the other races because, at the time, the Terrans are the weakest race as setup in that universe to begin with. I'm comparing Mengsk's weakness against other Terrans and how is eroded position by the end of BW would make him extremely vulnerable to other elements within the cutthroat dynamics of Terran society.

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Very well, provide evidence that Mengsk was weak relative to other Terrans by the end of Brood War.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

That's the thing. What little there was in terms of progression for Raynor's character in BW is completely ignored in the sequel. As I said, you can skip BW and be none-the-wiser however in BW, Raynor did show the beginnings of a change in direction for his character. He wasn't going to be the self-pitying sap who takes personal responsibility of the actions of others anymore. We didn't get a chance to explore any of this change before he's back to his usual way again (stereotypical sullen, put-upon hero guy) in Sc2.

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I never read that from Raynor in Brood War. He spent the entire game being a gullible pawn.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Still doesn't mean he still wanted to kill her personally.

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Doesn't mean he didn't. You're the one claiming a contradiction, the burden of evidence is on you.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

In what context is he recovered? The fleet he commands is not technically his and it just represents a temporary material gain based on concessions and promises. All that this is evidence of his that he has a high charisma stat... and one that loses it's currency when he backs it up with a defeat.

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What else would a military fleet be? Mengsk doesn't construct Battlecruisers alone with his own hands and spawn armies of Marines by cloning. All armies are built on the authority of its leaders. But since his political clout and military arsenal don't count, what is your evidence that Mengsk has recovered in StarCraft II?

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Very well, provide evidence that Mengsk was weak relative to other Terrans by the end of Brood War.

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Actually for this part Fanatic, answer me something: how much did you see the KMC and UP get damaged in the BW?

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

People complained that Mengsk's power in Wings of Liberty makes no sense. I mention that equally absurd or worse events occurred in Brood War and everybody seemed fine with it then.

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*sigh* it's this kind of defense that gave defenders on the B.Net forums a bad name.

Who cares if Brood War has problems or not (Don't get me wrong here either, I know damn well it does). However, that doesn't for-one-bit excuse this one concerning the Dominion during the transition from BW to WoL. It's a completely separate problem! Saying one problem is justified because of some other random problem existed is like saying American Football concussions are a problem, because Baseball doesn't have instant replay. They are completely separate problems that have nothing to do with one another. You're proving nothing by saying that the return of the Dominion is justified, because Brood War has problems.

It's true that there's hardly any concrete proof that Mengsk is in a better or worse state during the transition. However, the fact that Brood War gave off the feeling that Mengsk, and his Dominion, was screwed on all accounts by the end of Omega, that they took part in defeat after defeat starting from the UED coming in and taking them over, of course it would feel off when you suddenly realize that by WoL, all that work you did slowly whittling down the Dominion was all for not.

I said it before on B.Net, and I will say it again. All I'm asking for is a sign or two that the Dominion was still in rebuild mode. Anything to show that the beating the Dominion took in Brood War actually affected them in some way.

I didn't get it.

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Originally Posted by RetlocLive

It's true that there's hardly any concrete proof that Mengsk is in a better or worse state during the transition. However, the fact that Brood War gave off the feeling that Mengsk, and his Dominion, was screwed on all accounts by the end of Omega, that they took part in defeat after defeat starting from the UED coming in and taking them over, of course it would feel off when you suddenly realize that by WoL, all that work you did slowly whittling down the Dominion was all for not.

I said it before on B.Net, and I will say it again. All I'm asking for is a sign or two that the Dominion was still in rebuild mode. Anything to show that the beating the Dominion took in Brood War actually affected them in some way.

I didn't get it.

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Well it was, Retlo, but WoL just didn't say it DISCRETELY. You recall the interview Kate Lockweel conducted with Mengsk at the beginning of the game? She made it clear that he had allowed the fleet to decay, when the Zerg was still a real threat.

It's possible Kate was saying the fleet was still a LONG way to go from full strength, despite it being a sizable force again. And that means if the Zerg invaded at this point in time, the fleet would be able to stop them.

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Originally Posted by RetlocLive

*sigh* it's this kind of defense that gave defenders on the B.Net forums a bad name.

Who cares if Brood War has problems or not (Don't get me wrong here either, I know damn well it does). However, that doesn't for-one-bit excuse this one concerning the Dominion during the transition from BW to WoL. It's a completely separate problem! Saying one problem is justified because of some other random problem existed is like saying American Football concussions are a problem, because Baseball doesn't have instant replay. They are completely separate problems that have nothing to do with one another. You're proving nothing by saying that the return of the Dominion is justified, because Brood War has problems.

It's true that there's hardly any concrete proof that Mengsk is in a better or worse state during the transition. However, the fact that Brood War gave off the feeling that Mengsk, and his Dominion, was screwed on all accounts by the end of Omega, that they took part in defeat after defeat starting from the UED coming in and taking them over, of course it would feel off when you suddenly realize that by WoL, all that work you did slowly whittling down the Dominion was all for not.

I said it before on B.Net, and I will say it again. All I'm asking for is a sign or two that the Dominion was still in rebuild mode. Anything to show that the beating the Dominion took in Brood War actually affected them in some way.

I didn't get it.

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Actually, if we go back to page 3, you'll find that the question was whether Arcturus Mengsk's inexplicable return to power was 'inconsistent with the story of Brood War', so they're not separate. If Brood War demonstrates that Mengsk has inexplicable recovery powers, then the fault in Wings of Liberty is that they were consistent with the lore of Brood War, when they should in fact have retconned it out.

If you want to say that Mengsk's recovery makes no sense, then I'll be right there agreeing with you. If you want to say it's inconsistent with Brood War, that's a different issue, because it is a problem established by Brood War.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Actually, if we go back to page 3, you'll find that the question was whether Arcturus Mengsk's inexplicable return to power was 'inconsistent with the story of Brood War', so they're not separate. If Brood War demonstrates that Mengsk has inexplicable recovery powers, then the fault in Wings of Liberty is that they were consistent with the lore of Brood War, when they should in fact have retconned it out.

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But would that also hold true for what happened between WoL and HotS? Unless Valerian lied about taking half the fleet to Char (which was only a pathetic 25 battlecruisers), I don't see WHY the Dominion recovered so quickly. Blizzard's excuse of just how huge the Dominion empire really is is a weak one.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

I'm just pointing out the double standard. People complained that Mengsk's power in Wings of Liberty makes no sense. I mention that equally absurd or worse events occurred in Brood War and everybody seemed fine with it then.

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What you consider "absurd" for Mengsk's comebacks in BW are really not that absurd, that's why some people are fine with it. Each of Mengsk's comebacks in BW are with a caveat and begin on a lower position of power than the previous time before that comeback. Once freed, he needs help to collect an army that takes the brunt of the assault on UED's hilding of Korhal only to have his remaining loyal men and general slaughtered by Kerrigan. Kerrigan gloats at how she will keep Mengsk long around just to see her rise knowing that he'll never be in a position to to do anything (and perhaps thinking about ensuring that is the case, too). We don't even know if the Dominion, as an entity with any standing, even exists at this point. In Omega, we have him given a fleet on the proviso he do away with Kerrigan (all he has left here is his words). He is not really in a position of power here, he's just doing a job for a shared common interest with others who have power to lend him such a thing. He loses that fleet and is now indebted, without any infrastructure or many loyal men to enforce his will and now, even his word is no good because he can't back them up.

Mengsk has lost something in every one of those exchanges/comebacks. The problem with WoL is that his comeback has not taken into account these steps. DON'T GET ME WRONG! I'm not saying that Mengsk can't conceivably reverse his trend and somehow pulled a rabbit out of the hat and was able to get back in a position where he can put his thumb down on all Terran affairs again, it's just that it's not earnt in the narrative sense for what is ostensibly a continuation/sequel.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

If you're going to go the opposite angle and argue that things must make sense until proven otherwise, then apply that same standard to Wings of Liberty. Demonstrate that Mengsk is in an unrealistically good position in StarCraft II compared to the position he was in at the end of Brood War. I don't really mind which angle you choose to approach this from, I merely desire consistency.

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Well, if we start from the position I described (again) above, we have Mengsk now (in Sc2) being in a position to be responsible for terraforming a wasteland that was his home into a habitable world that has also somehow become an ecumenopolis. He has the wherewithal to spend trillions on the trifle that is Raynor (and not finding him) over a period of time when they are still rebuilding where it would be better spent making Terran life in the sector much more happier than they are now. The KMC and any other Terran powers are still not heard of in Terran circles with the assumption that this must be because everyone either loves Mengsk's ability to rule them or that he's able to quash any dissenting voices which is backed by his biggest threat being apparently Raynor (where we are also expected to think this a lie/scapegoating technique when we have no basis for that assumption, too) who is a complete wash out when we see him. He has control over everything when it comes to Terran matters and then some by being in cahoots with the ancient cosmic horror that is Narud/Duran to fund labs that create Hybrids!

This wouldn't be a problem if BW didn't happen at all and that Sc1 went straight into Sc2 because then we wouldn't know exactly what state Korhal was in and we wouldn't be privy to Mengsk being whittled down everytime (and being shown to be incompetent each time) he tries to get up. With BW, it is entirely possible that Raynor could have easily taken the reigns of Terran leadership if he had wanted to.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Very well, provide evidence that Mengsk was weak relative to other Terrans by the end of Brood War.

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Can anyone really provide evidence for what is abundantly clear subtext? Come on now, you're just being belligerent now. :D

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

I never read that from Raynor in Brood War. He spent the entire game being a gullible pawn.

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You're right, up until his final outburst. There was a germ of an idea there that Raynor could finally stop beating himself up, wise-up and learn something. Alas, it was not to be.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Doesn't mean he didn't. You're the one claiming a contradiction, the burden of evidence is on you.

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Ask any new person who isn't aware of that history (Sc2 is supposedly an entry point for newcomers afterall) and see if you get the same interpretation that Raynor wanted to kill Kerrigan personally at that time. There are people who know the history and still interpret it that Raynor wouldn't want to kill Kerrigan if given the chance. I do not need to prove it when it's plain to see that the very thing that is written/shown is open to creating a wrong interpretation.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Very well, provide evidence that Mengsk was weak relative to other Terrans by the end of Brood War.

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Kerrigan: "I think I will leave you here Arcturus, among the ashes of your precious Dominion"
Kerrigan: "How did you manage to scrape up your new fleet? Been raiding the salvage dump again?"
Arcturus: "I called in a few favors. Made a few concessions. You'd be surprised to see how many special interest groups in this sector want to see you dead."

Kerrigan destroys Arcturus' remnants on Korhal, and she doesn't expect him to be able to gather sizeable forces any time soon. When she asks how he did it, he explains that this is not in fact a Dominion fleet, but contributions from a number of other factions that, although not particularly sympathetic to him, hated Kerrigan a lot more.

If that is not evidence that he was far weaker than he was at the beginning of Brood War, compared to other Terran, I don't know what is. I would also argue that this goes against your "double standard" argument. Mengsk spawns entire armies right before WoL because industry! In Brood War, you don't create armies from minerals and sand, once your soldiers are killed, they are dead and you actually have to get your next army somewhere else. There is no handwave based on "we just rebuild fast".

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What else would a military fleet be? Mengsk doesn't construct Battlecruisers alone with his own hands and spawn armies of Marines by cloning. All armies are built on the authority of its leaders. But since his political clout and military arsenal don't count, what is your evidence that Mengsk has recovered in StarCraft II?

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I'm not sure I follow the trail of thoughts, but to answer the question, there is that fact that his armies are capable of leading "five separate invasions" against the Zerg, that his rule is completely uncontested except for the weak efforts of a group of rebels operating from a single battlecruiser, and Raynor arguing that the Dominion is going to spin Media Blitz around "like everything else".

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You recall the interview Kate Lockweel conducted with Mengsk at the beginning of the game? She made it clear that he had allowed the fleet to decay, when the Zerg was still a real threat.

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That sounds even more problematic to me. "Decay" implies gradual degradation, neglect of some sort, that's not a word you would use if you were refering to its destruction by the enemy. So what, are we supposed to believe that the Dominion rebuilt his cities, armies and fleets in less than four years, and then that the fleet had time to get noticeably weaker?

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Originally Posted by Telenil

That sounds even more problematic to me. "Decay" implies gradual degradation, neglect of some sort, that's not a word you would use if you were refering to its destruction by the enemy. So what, are we supposed to believe that the Dominion rebuilt his cities, armies and fleets in less than four years, and then that the fleet had time to get noticeably weaker?

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Well, it's not that, Telenil.

You have to look at those 4 years from different angles.

Yes, the Dominion was expanding during those 4 years, but that's not what happened in the IMMEDIATE aftermath of the Brood War.

In the IMMEDIATE aftermath, the Dominion people were scared because although Korhal was back in their hands and the UED had been defeated, the Zerg had technically won. With the Dominion fleet shredded, they have nothing to defend themselves with if the Zerg choose to attack.

Therefore, in the IMMEDIATE aftermath of the Brood War, the top priority is to rebuild the Dominion fleet as quickly as possible. The Dominion people did not know Kerrigan would disappear from sight for the next 4 years.

But, it's likely that within like a year or so after the Brood War ended, Dominion military intelligence felt the Zerg were not likely to return any time soon. If that's the case, then the rebuilding of the fleet became a much lower priority. Yes, the buildup was to continue, but it would now proceed at a much slower pace, while Dominion annexation became high priority instead.

Furthermore, during these 4 years, there was very little MAJOR warfare for the Dominion fleet to fight. Therefore, there wasn't really much to learn from their enemies in terms of adapting technological changes or anything like that.

THAT is what I mean when Kate said Mengsk had allowed the fleet to decay.

^ That's all well and good, but how exactly did you piece this justification together from what little we have? At any point of those junctures you mentioned, things could've just as easily gone the other way for the Dominion (if it even still formally existed with Mengsk being bereft of any real power at the end of BW) and we'd be none the wiser.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

Therefore, in the IMMEDIATE aftermath of the Brood War, the top priority is to rebuild the Dominion fleet as quickly as possible. The Dominion people did not know Kerrigan would disappear from sight for the next 4 years.

But, it's likely that within like a year or so after the Brood War ended, Dominion military intelligence felt the Zerg were not likely to return any time soon. If that's the case, then the rebuilding of the fleet became a much lower priority. Yes, the buildup was to continue, but it would now proceed at a much slower pace, while Dominion annexation became high priority instead.

Furthermore, during these 4 years, there was very little MAJOR warfare for the Dominion fleet to fight. Therefore, there wasn't really much to learn from their enemies in terms of adapting technological changes or anything like that.

THAT is what I mean when Kate said Mengsk had allowed the fleet to decay.

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I think you could argue pretty much anything with this reasonning.

In order to show that the Dominion is still weak, you are suggesting that it rebuilt his entire army and fleet in one year instead of four. For Kate Lockwell's statement to make sense, "decay" should be interpreted as "build up more slowly".

While we are at it, we could just as well interpret "five separate invasions against the Swarm" as "five defensive battles the Dominion lost" and "spend trillions to hunt Raynor" as "the Dominion military has a budget in the trillions but their only actions were minor skirmishes with the Raiders". So the Dominion was in fact weak, QED.
That's not making sense of the story we have as much as rewriting inconsistent dialogs.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

What you consider "absurd" for Mengsk's comebacks in BW are really not that absurd, that's why some people are fine with it. Each of Mengsk's comebacks in BW are with a caveat and begin on a lower position of power than the previous time before that comeback.

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Really? Because Mengsk's Dominion was built on the remaining 4 of the 13 Confederate (or does it include Moria and Umoja when it says 'Terran worlds'?) worlds that survived the alien passage. From this, in the span of merely a few months, he has become the most powerful human in the Sector, turned Augustgrad into what is 'easily the most fortified city in all of Dominion space', and become 'a considerable threat' to the UED. In Brood War he loses one world (the capitol world, but then the Terrans also lost Tarsonis the first time so that's irrelevant) and has far more time to rebuild for Wings of Liberty.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Well, if we start from the position I described (again) above, we have Mengsk now (in Sc2) being in a position to be responsible for terraforming a wasteland that was his home into a habitable world that has also somehow become an ecumenopolis.

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Korhal was already habitable (and inhabited) in Brood War. The ecumenopolis notion is problematic in any scenario, and is somewhat contradicted by the first part of Kerrigan's invasion occurring in the desert wasteland outside the city.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

He has the wherewithal to spend trillions on the trifle that is Raynor (and not finding him) over a period of time when they are still rebuilding where it would be better spent making Terran life in the sector much more happier than they are now.

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If you're going to say that Mengsk having access to an entire fleet in Omega is not evidence, I am certainly going to dismiss 'spending trillions' as being evidence. Especially since we have no way of knowing if that's really what he was spending his money on.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

The KMC and any other Terran powers are still not heard of in Terran circles with the assumption that this must be because everyone either loves Mengsk's ability to rule them or that he's able to quash any dissenting voices which is backed by his biggest threat being apparently Raynor (where we are also expected to think this a lie/scapegoating technique when we have no basis for that assumption, too) who is a complete wash out when we see him.

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The other Terran powers being unheard of is entirely consistent with StarCraft and Brood War. There was never any mention of how the Umojan Protectorate and Kel-Morian Combine reacted to the Confederacy's collapse in the games. Remember that I'm asking you to provide evidence that he is improbably stronger in Wings of Liberty than he was in Brood War, so if you want to use the fact that the other Terran powers are not interfering in Wings as evidence, you need to demonstrate that the other Terran powers were interfering at the end of Brood War, otherwise you can't demonstrate that this is an improvement.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

He has control over everything when it comes to Terran matters and then some by being in cahoots with the ancient cosmic horror that is Narud/Duran to fund labs that create Hybrids!

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Creating Hybrids could be done by a random bunch of Terran mercenaries in Dark Origin. This is way easier than assembling a massive fleet.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Can anyone really provide evidence for what is abundantly clear subtext? Come on now, you're just being belligerent now. :D

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Is it abundantly clear subtext? There are two things you need to keep in mind:

First, I already believe that Mengsk's recovery for Wings of Liberty is completely absurd. But I also believe that his recovery for Omega is completely absurd. You disagree with me, necessarily asserting that my judgment on Mengsk's state of weakness and recovery is incorrect. You can't then turn around and tell me that I already know that he was in a weak and realistically unrecoverable state after Brood War and therefore you don't need to provide evidence because you trust my judgment on Mengsk's state of weakness and recovery. I have been repeatedly asked to provide evidence for the abundantly clear subtext of Mengsk's recoveries in Brood War, I don't think it is unfair for me to ask the same of you with regards to Wings of Liberty.

Second, there is no subtext about Mengsk being weaker than the other Terran factions. There is no evidence from Brood War that the Umojan Protectorate even exists, never mind evidence about its strength relative to the Dominion. The Kel-Morian Combine does show up in the game, but only to have its capitol world overrun and pillaged by the Zerg and its population infested for suicide bombers. This is equivalent to the Dominion's capitol world being devastated, so evidence would indicate that the balance of power between the Kel-Morian Combine and Dominion has not shifted much, if at all.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

You're right, up until his final outburst. There was a germ of an idea there that Raynor could finally stop beating himself up, wise-up and learn something. Alas, it was not to be.

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It might have been, or not. The only thing it demonstrates is that he was angered by Kerrigan's betrayal and realised that she needed to die, and I don't think this was contradicted in Wings of Liberty.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Ask any new person who isn't aware of that history (Sc2 is supposedly an entry point for newcomers afterall) and see if you get the same interpretation that Raynor wanted to kill Kerrigan personally at that time. There are people who know the history and still interpret it that Raynor wouldn't want to kill Kerrigan if given the chance. I do not need to prove it when it's plain to see that the very thing that is written/shown is open to creating a wrong interpretation.

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That's not the problem. That passage doesn't need to indicate that he intends to kill her for it not to be a contradiction, it needs to indicate that he doesn't intend to kill her to be a contradiction.

Moreover, I don't believe an audience has to have its hand held every step of the way. It's not like Wings of Liberty (or StarCraft in general) was especially subtle, but now you're complaining that it wasn't explicitly clear enough for your tastes? True Colors is pretty clear that Raynor believes Kerrigan needs to die, and nothing about that scene objectively contradicts it, so why would you choose to interpret it as meaning it is? Certainly, the story could have benefited from being clearer, but that doesn't mean that given a choice between contradiction and non-contradiction in an unclear situation, I choose to assume a contradiction.

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Originally Posted by Telenil

If that is not evidence that he was far weaker than he was at the beginning of Brood War, compared to other Terran

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That's a bit of rhetorical sleight of hand there. Yes, it is evidence that he is far weaker than he was at the beginning of Brood War, but that wasn't what I asked you to demonstrate. Then you append 'compared to other Terrans' as though your first conclusion implies the second, but it does not. Demonstrating that the Dominion is weaker at the end of Brood War than it was at the beginning of Brood War does not demonstrate that the Dominion is weaker at the end of Brood War than other Terran factions are at the end of Brood War.

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Originally Posted by Telenil

I'm not sure I follow the trail of thoughts, but to answer the question, there is that fact that his armies are capable of leading "five separate invasions" against the Zerg,

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He has an army capable of leading an invasion against the Zerg in Omega, and I was quite clearly assured that this is not evidence of recovery.

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Originally Posted by Telenil

that his rule is completely uncontested except for the weak efforts of a group of rebels operating from a single battlecruiser, and Raynor arguing that the Dominion is going to spin Media Blitz around "like everything else".

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And this was not the case at the end of Brood War?

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Originally Posted by Telenil

I think you could argue pretty much anything with this reasonning.

In order to show that the Dominion is still weak, you are suggesting that it rebuilt his entire army and fleet in one year instead of four. For Kate Lockwell's statement to make sense, "decay" should be interpreted as "build up more slowly".

While we are at it, we could just as well interpret "five separate invasions against the Swarm" as "five defensive battles the Dominion lost" and "spend trillions to hunt Raynor" as "the Dominion military has a budget in the trillions but their only actions were minor skirmishes with the Raiders". So the Dominion was in fact weak, QED.
That's not making sense of the story we have as much as rewriting inconsistent dialogs.

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See, those 5 separate invasions against the swarm Warfield was telling Raynor about proved both the Dominion was weak AND that he was an incompetent general.

After all, if he led those invasions, why didn't UNN say anything? The only conclusion is all 5 invasions ended in failure. So much for Mengsk's claim that Warfield will win the war against the Zerg in no time.

Hunting trillions was something I can certainly see, depending on just how much the Dominion siphoned off the fringe worlds for its own funding.

Remember, Mengsk never gave a damn about those worlds, they could all die there for all he cared, even without the Zerg invasion in WoL.

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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar

Really? Because Mengsk's Dominion was built on the remaining 4 of the 13 Confederate (or does it include Moria and Umoja when it says 'Terran worlds'?) worlds that survived the alien passage. From this, in the span of merely a few months, he has become the most powerful human in the Sector, turned Augustgrad into what is 'easily the most fortified city in all of Dominion space', and become 'a considerable threat' to the UED.

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Most of those are relative terms. Because the Confederacy was destroyed is the exact reason he can step in as "the most powerful human in the sector".

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In Brood War he loses one world (the capitol world, but then the Terrans also lost Tarsonis the first time so that's irrelevant) and has far more time to rebuild for Wings of Liberty.

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In Brood War he is defeated 3 times in a row. The first time, it was to a far superior army that nobody saw coming and might be excusable in the eyes of all other terrans (except Umoja and the Morians, who abandoned him). Still, he could be considered a credible threat. The second time, it's like, ok, you're not qualified to defend anybody from aliens. The third time, where he squanders all his favors and concessions, he's essentially screwed.

The point isn't that he rebuilt in BW (he didn't) and can't do the same in Wings of Liberty. It's that his coffers ran out, and BW puts him in a position where he's not qualified to rebuild crap.

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If you're going to say that Mengsk having access to an entire fleet in Omega is not evidence, I am certainly going to dismiss 'spending trillions' as being evidence. Especially since we have no way of knowing if that's really what he was spending his money on.

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Spending trillions hunting down a rebel is an extravagance. Raising an army to fight the zerg is his job.

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The other Terran powers being unheard of is entirely consistent with StarCraft and Brood War. There was never any mention of how the Umojan Protectorate and Kel-Morian Combine reacted to the Confederacy's collapse in the games.

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Yes there is. They joined up with Mengsk. That's what made him the most powerful human in the sector. Contrast this to Wings of Liberty where they've abandoned him years ago and the writers expect us to believe they're sitting on their thumbs doing nothing while Mengsk is lording over everybody.

In the Frontline comics, the Umojans have to smuggle food to their own people in crates by Wings of Liberty.

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Remember that I'm asking you to provide evidence that he is improbably stronger in Wings of Liberty than he was in Brood War, so if you want to use the fact that the other Terran powers are not interfering in Wings as evidence, you need to demonstrate that the other Terran powers were interfering at the end of Brood War, otherwise you can't demonstrate that this is an improvement.

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What they were doing in Brood War was trying to stay out of the conflict. Moria was raking in cash while the Dominion was getting demolished, and even Fenix comments on this. This puts them in a perfect position to take advantage of Mengsk's weakness.

As for the Umojans, the fact that we didn't hear from them can lead us to logically deduce that they were doing the same thing and at the least don't deserve to be Mengsk's footstool in WoL. Sure, we can also hypothesize that they also got shafted during the BW and are in no better position to take advantage, but the fact remains that they weren't anybody's target after they split with the Dominion. Kerrigan and the UED only had specific planets they needed destroyed, unlike WoL where Kerrigan invaded everything in sight and you could make the argument that that included Umoja.

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First, I already believe that Mengsk's recovery for Wings of Liberty is completely absurd. But I also believe that his recovery for Omega is completely absurd. You disagree with me, necessarily asserting that my judgment on Mengsk's state of weakness and recovery is incorrect. You can't then turn around and tell me that I already know that he was in a weak and realistically unrecoverable state after Brood War and therefore you don't need to provide evidence because you trust my judgment on Mengsk's state of weakness and recovery. I have been repeatedly asked to provide evidence for the abundantly clear subtext of Mengsk's recoveries in Brood War, I don't think it is unfair for me to ask the same of you with regards to Wings of Liberty.

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I still have an issue with the idea that he "recovered" anything in Brood War. There was neither time to do so, nor any reason given that he commands more than one planet. It's like if Washington DC was destroyed by aliens, but Obama rallied some troops from Fort Hood and Fort Bragg and you'd say "but how did he miraculously recover so fast!"

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Second, there is no subtext about Mengsk being weaker than the other Terran factions. There is no evidence from Brood War that the Umojan Protectorate even exists, never mind evidence about its strength relative to the Dominion. The Kel-Morian Combine does show up in the game, but only to have its capitol world overrun and pillaged by the Zerg and its population infested for suicide bombers. This is equivalent to the Dominion's capitol world being devastated, so evidence would indicate that the balance of power between the Kel-Morian Combine and Dominion has not shifted much, if at all.

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It was a resource raid. There's no reason to believe Raynor/Fenix would allow genocide. At best, they sacked one city. Never mind the fact that the Morians must also control more than one planet.

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Demonstrating that the Dominion is weaker at the end of Brood War than it was at the beginning of Brood War does not demonstrate that the Dominion is weaker at the end of Brood War than other Terran factions are at the end of Brood War.

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It could be easily argued that Moria is in a better spot than the Dominion, even with your "the entire planet got infested" scenario. They were only attacked once, whereas Korhal got sacked twice (3 if you count the UED).

But the problem is the idea that Mengsk is the only one capable of leading the terrans. It's absurd. There has to be somebody in the Dominion or Moria/Umoja who would make a better candidate than him. Not to mention all the new planets that were retconned into existence to support Mengsk's recovery. The 13 terran core worlds figure can basically be tossed into the trash bin at this point.

And really the recovery was ridiculous. Nobody would have minded Mengsk returning to SoK status, not commanding a vast empire of planets and constantly throwing money away left and right. Kerrigan easily sacked Korhal in BW. Twice. In SC2, it was the "toughest fight of her life" and "millions will die in the initial landing". She had to give orders to Zagara to take the swarm away in case she lost. It's a complete joke.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Most of those are relative terms. Because the Confederacy was destroyed is the exact reason he can step in as "the most powerful human in the sector".

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Okay, using absolute terms, demonstrate that Mengsk is unreasonably more powerful in Wings of Liberty than he should be.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

In Brood War he is defeated 3 times in a row. The first time, it was to a far superior army that nobody saw coming and might be excusable in the eyes of all other terrans (except Umoja and the Morians, who abandoned him). Still, he could be considered a credible threat. The second time, it's like, ok, you're not qualified to defend anybody from aliens. The third time, where he squanders all his favors and concessions, he's essentially screwed.

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So? The Zerg get defeated all over the place and only become more powerful. Being defeated doesn't mean you're annihilated. In fact, Omega makes it a point that Mengsk's fleet was not annihilated by contrasting it to the UED's. He was forced to retreat. Truly, he is unfit for leadership because he hasn't had any more success against the Zerg than anyone else.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

The point isn't that he rebuilt in BW (he didn't) and can't do the same in Wings of Liberty. It's that his coffers ran out, and BW puts him in a position where he's not qualified to rebuild crap.

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Do you have any evidence?

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Spending trillions hunting down a rebel is an extravagance. Raising an army to fight the zerg is his job.

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Protecting his people from terrorists is also his job, and that's assuming Kate Lockwell somehow has accurate information about Dominion spending. I'm not expecting much transparency from the Dominion government.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Yes there is. They joined up with Mengsk. That's what made him the most powerful human in the sector.

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Source?

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Originally Posted by Gradius

In the Frontline comics, the Umojans have to smuggle food to their own people in crates by Wings of Liberty.

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I haven't read the Frontline comics, and they're irrelevant: if there is a problem in Wings of Liberty, the evidence should come from Wings of Liberty.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

What they were doing in Brood War was trying to stay out of the conflict. Moria was raking in cash while the Dominion was getting demolished, and even Fenix comments on this. This puts them in a perfect position to take advantage of Mengsk's weakness.

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So Mengsk getting demolished on Korhal puts him in an unrecoverable position, the KMC getting demolished on Moria puts them in a perfect position to overthrow Mengsk? I disagree.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

As for the Umojans, the fact that we didn't hear from them can lead us to logically deduce that they were doing the same thing and at the least don't deserve to be Mengsk's footstool in WoL. Sure, we can also hypothesize that they also got shafted during the BW and are in no better position to take advantage, but the fact remains that they weren't anybody's target after they split with the Dominion. Kerrigan and the UED only had specific planets they needed destroyed, unlike WoL where Kerrigan invaded everything in sight and you could make the argument that that included Umoja.

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It's hard to say if they were someone's target or not when they don't appear. Either way there doesn't need to be any specific reason to invade Umoja: The Stand demonstrates that Cerebrates can just appear on a planet for absolutely no reason and have the power to wipe out the entire Protoss species, so there's no reason to assume that Umoja got spared.

Not that this is important. If you want to say that the Umojan's situation relative to the Dominion in Wings of Liberty is problematic, you first need to demonstrate their situation relative to the Dominion at the end of Brood War.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

I still have an issue with the idea that he "recovered" anything in Brood War. There was neither time to do so, nor any reason given that he commands more than one planet. It's like if Washington DC was destroyed by aliens, but Obama rallied some troops from Fort Hood and Fort Bragg and you'd say "but how did he miraculously recover so fast!"

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I know you do, which is why I accepted to invert the issue and asked you to demonstrate that Mengsk had problematically recovered in Wings of Liberty.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

It was a resource raid. There's no reason to believe Raynor/Fenix would allow genocide. At best, they sacked one city. Never mind the fact that the Morians must also control more than one planet.

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Even if I were willing to accept all your assumptions, you still have not demonstrated that the Kel-Morian Combine had the power to push Mengsk around at the end of Brood War.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

It could be easily argued that Moria is in a better spot than the Dominion, even with your "the entire planet got infested" scenario. They were only attacked once, whereas Korhal got sacked twice (3 if you count the UED).

But the problem is the idea that Mengsk is the only one capable of leading the terrans. It's absurd. There has to be somebody in the Dominion or Moria/Umoja who would make a better candidate than him. Not to mention all the new planets that were retconned into existence to support Mengsk's recovery. The 13 terran core worlds figure can basically be tossed into the trash bin at this point.

And really the recovery was ridiculous. Nobody would have minded Mengsk returning to SoK status, not commanding a vast empire of planets and constantly throwing money away left and right. Kerrigan easily sacked Korhal in BW. Twice. In SC2, it was the "toughest fight of her life" and "millions will die in the initial landing". She had to give orders to Zagara to take the swarm away in case she lost. It's a complete joke.

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Or, it could be the complete opposite of what you say: in Brood War Kerrigan was only able to conquer Korhal by allying herself with the Protoss and the Dominion - two of the most powerful factions in the game - and sacking the Kel-Morian Combine for resources, then betraying her allies to gain a definitive advantage. In StarCraft II, even after losing a vast amount of her Broods in space after her deinfestation, and leaving a massive portion of her remaining warriors in space during the actual invasion, and Mengsk getting all the time to fortify himself on Korhal, and taking a deliberate strategic disadvantage to reduce civilian casualties, and Mengsk pulling out a magic macguffin out of his arse that straight-up kills Zerg, Kerrigan still had no problem taking Korhal. Clearly, Korhal was incredibly stronger in Brood War, and this is clear evidence that Mengsk never recovered from his losses then. There you go, evidence that Mengsk never recovered.