Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Actually, if we go back to page 3, you'll find that the question was whether Arcturus Mengsk's inexplicable return to power was 'inconsistent with the story of Brood War', so they're not separate. If Brood War demonstrates that Mengsk has inexplicable recovery powers, then the fault in Wings of Liberty is that they were consistent with the lore of Brood War, when they should in fact have retconned it out.
But would that also hold true for what happened between WoL and HotS? Unless Valerian lied about taking half the fleet to Char (which was only a pathetic 25 battlecruisers), I don't see WHY the Dominion recovered so quickly. Blizzard's excuse of just how huge the Dominion empire really is is a weak one.
Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
I'm just pointing out the double standard. People complained that Mengsk's power in Wings of Liberty makes no sense. I mention that equally absurd or worse events occurred in Brood War and everybody seemed fine with it then.
What you consider "absurd" for Mengsk's comebacks in BW are really not that absurd, that's why some people are fine with it. Each of Mengsk's comebacks in BW are with a caveat and begin on a lower position of power than the previous time before that comeback. Once freed, he needs help to collect an army that takes the brunt of the assault on UED's hilding of Korhal only to have his remaining loyal men and general slaughtered by Kerrigan. Kerrigan gloats at how she will keep Mengsk long around just to see her rise knowing that he'll never be in a position to to do anything (and perhaps thinking about ensuring that is the case, too). We don't even know if the Dominion, as an entity with any standing, even exists at this point. In Omega, we have him given a fleet on the proviso he do away with Kerrigan (all he has left here is his words). He is not really in a position of power here, he's just doing a job for a shared common interest with others who have power to lend him such a thing. He loses that fleet and is now indebted, without any infrastructure or many loyal men to enforce his will and now, even his word is no good because he can't back them up.
Mengsk has lost something in every one of those exchanges/comebacks. The problem with WoL is that his comeback has not taken into account these steps. DON'T GET ME WRONG! I'm not saying that Mengsk can't conceivably reverse his trend and somehow pulled a rabbit out of the hat and was able to get back in a position where he can put his thumb down on all Terran affairs again, it's just that it's not earnt in the narrative sense for what is ostensibly a continuation/sequel.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
If you're going to go the opposite angle and argue that things must make sense until proven otherwise, then apply that same standard to Wings of Liberty. Demonstrate that Mengsk is in an unrealistically good position in StarCraft II compared to the position he was in at the end of Brood War. I don't really mind which angle you choose to approach this from, I merely desire consistency.
Well, if we start from the position I described (again) above, we have Mengsk now (in Sc2) being in a position to be responsible for terraforming a wasteland that was his home into a habitable world that has also somehow become an ecumenopolis. He has the wherewithal to spend trillions on the trifle that is Raynor (and not finding him) over a period of time when they are still rebuilding where it would be better spent making Terran life in the sector much more happier than they are now. The KMC and any other Terran powers are still not heard of in Terran circles with the assumption that this must be because everyone either loves Mengsk's ability to rule them or that he's able to quash any dissenting voices which is backed by his biggest threat being apparently Raynor (where we are also expected to think this a lie/scapegoating technique when we have no basis for that assumption, too) who is a complete wash out when we see him. He has control over everything when it comes to Terran matters and then some by being in cahoots with the ancient cosmic horror that is Narud/Duran to fund labs that create Hybrids!
This wouldn't be a problem if BW didn't happen at all and that Sc1 went straight into Sc2 because then we wouldn't know exactly what state Korhal was in and we wouldn't be privy to Mengsk being whittled down everytime (and being shown to be incompetent each time) he tries to get up. With BW, it is entirely possible that Raynor could have easily taken the reigns of Terran leadership if he had wanted to.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Very well, provide evidence that Mengsk was weak relative to other Terrans by the end of Brood War.
Can anyone really provide evidence for what is abundantly clear subtext? Come on now, you're just being belligerent now. :D
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
I never read that from Raynor in Brood War. He spent the entire game being a gullible pawn.
You're right, up until his final outburst. There was a germ of an idea there that Raynor could finally stop beating himself up, wise-up and learn something. Alas, it was not to be.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Doesn't mean he didn't. You're the one claiming a contradiction, the burden of evidence is on you.
Ask any new person who isn't aware of that history (Sc2 is supposedly an entry point for newcomers afterall) and see if you get the same interpretation that Raynor wanted to kill Kerrigan personally at that time. There are people who know the history and still interpret it that Raynor wouldn't want to kill Kerrigan if given the chance. I do not need to prove it when it's plain to see that the very thing that is written/shown is open to creating a wrong interpretation.
Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Very well, provide evidence that Mengsk was weak relative to other Terrans by the end of Brood War.
Kerrigan: "I think I will leave you here Arcturus, among the ashes of your precious Dominion"
Kerrigan: "How did you manage to scrape up your new fleet? Been raiding the salvage dump again?"
Arcturus: "I called in a few favors. Made a few concessions. You'd be surprised to see how many special interest groups in this sector want to see you dead."
Kerrigan destroys Arcturus' remnants on Korhal, and she doesn't expect him to be able to gather sizeable forces any time soon. When she asks how he did it, he explains that this is not in fact a Dominion fleet, but contributions from a number of other factions that, although not particularly sympathetic to him, hated Kerrigan a lot more.
If that is not evidence that he was far weaker than he was at the beginning of Brood War, compared to other Terran, I don't know what is. I would also argue that this goes against your "double standard" argument. Mengsk spawns entire armies right before WoL because industry! In Brood War, you don't create armies from minerals and sand, once your soldiers are killed, they are dead and you actually have to get your next army somewhere else. There is no handwave based on "we just rebuild fast".
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What else would a military fleet be? Mengsk doesn't construct Battlecruisers alone with his own hands and spawn armies of Marines by cloning. All armies are built on the authority of its leaders. But since his political clout and military arsenal don't count, what is your evidence that Mengsk has recovered in StarCraft II?
I'm not sure I follow the trail of thoughts, but to answer the question, there is that fact that his armies are capable of leading "five separate invasions" against the Zerg, that his rule is completely uncontested except for the weak efforts of a group of rebels operating from a single battlecruiser, and Raynor arguing that the Dominion is going to spin Media Blitz around "like everything else".
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You recall the interview Kate Lockweel conducted with Mengsk at the beginning of the game? She made it clear that he had allowed the fleet to decay, when the Zerg was still a real threat.
That sounds even more problematic to me. "Decay" implies gradual degradation, neglect of some sort, that's not a word you would use if you were refering to its destruction by the enemy. So what, are we supposed to believe that the Dominion rebuilt his cities, armies and fleets in less than four years, and then that the fleet had time to get noticeably weaker?
Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
Telenil
That sounds even more problematic to me. "Decay" implies gradual degradation, neglect of some sort, that's not a word you would use if you were refering to its destruction by the enemy. So what, are we supposed to believe that the Dominion rebuilt his cities, armies and fleets in less than four years, and then that the fleet had time to get noticeably weaker?
Well, it's not that, Telenil.
You have to look at those 4 years from different angles.
Yes, the Dominion was expanding during those 4 years, but that's not what happened in the IMMEDIATE aftermath of the Brood War.
In the IMMEDIATE aftermath, the Dominion people were scared because although Korhal was back in their hands and the UED had been defeated, the Zerg had technically won. With the Dominion fleet shredded, they have nothing to defend themselves with if the Zerg choose to attack.
Therefore, in the IMMEDIATE aftermath of the Brood War, the top priority is to rebuild the Dominion fleet as quickly as possible. The Dominion people did not know Kerrigan would disappear from sight for the next 4 years.
But, it's likely that within like a year or so after the Brood War ended, Dominion military intelligence felt the Zerg were not likely to return any time soon. If that's the case, then the rebuilding of the fleet became a much lower priority. Yes, the buildup was to continue, but it would now proceed at a much slower pace, while Dominion annexation became high priority instead.
Furthermore, during these 4 years, there was very little MAJOR warfare for the Dominion fleet to fight. Therefore, there wasn't really much to learn from their enemies in terms of adapting technological changes or anything like that.
THAT is what I mean when Kate said Mengsk had allowed the fleet to decay.
Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
^ That's all well and good, but how exactly did you piece this justification together from what little we have? At any point of those junctures you mentioned, things could've just as easily gone the other way for the Dominion (if it even still formally existed with Mengsk being bereft of any real power at the end of BW) and we'd be none the wiser.
Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
Therefore, in the IMMEDIATE aftermath of the Brood War, the top priority is to rebuild the Dominion fleet as quickly as possible. The Dominion people did not know Kerrigan would disappear from sight for the next 4 years.
But, it's likely that within like a year or so after the Brood War ended, Dominion military intelligence felt the Zerg were not likely to return any time soon. If that's the case, then the rebuilding of the fleet became a much lower priority. Yes, the buildup was to continue, but it would now proceed at a much slower pace, while Dominion annexation became high priority instead.
Furthermore, during these 4 years, there was very little MAJOR warfare for the Dominion fleet to fight. Therefore, there wasn't really much to learn from their enemies in terms of adapting technological changes or anything like that.
THAT is what I mean when Kate said Mengsk had allowed the fleet to decay.
I think you could argue pretty much anything with this reasonning.
In order to show that the Dominion is still weak, you are suggesting that it rebuilt his entire army and fleet in one year instead of four. For Kate Lockwell's statement to make sense, "decay" should be interpreted as "build up more slowly".
While we are at it, we could just as well interpret "five separate invasions against the Swarm" as "five defensive battles the Dominion lost" and "spend trillions to hunt Raynor" as "the Dominion military has a budget in the trillions but their only actions were minor skirmishes with the Raiders". So the Dominion was in fact weak, QED.
That's not making sense of the story we have as much as rewriting inconsistent dialogs.
Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
What you consider "absurd" for Mengsk's comebacks in BW are really not that absurd, that's why some people are fine with it. Each of Mengsk's comebacks in BW are with a caveat and begin on a lower position of power than the previous time before that comeback.
Really? Because Mengsk's Dominion was built on the remaining 4 of the 13 Confederate (or does it include Moria and Umoja when it says 'Terran worlds'?) worlds that survived the alien passage. From this, in the span of merely a few months, he has become the most powerful human in the Sector, turned Augustgrad into what is 'easily the most fortified city in all of Dominion space', and become 'a considerable threat' to the UED. In Brood War he loses one world (the capitol world, but then the Terrans also lost Tarsonis the first time so that's irrelevant) and has far more time to rebuild for Wings of Liberty.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Well, if we start from the position I described (again) above, we have Mengsk now (in Sc2) being in a position to be responsible for terraforming a wasteland that was his home into a habitable world that has also somehow become an ecumenopolis.
Korhal was already habitable (and inhabited) in Brood War. The ecumenopolis notion is problematic in any scenario, and is somewhat contradicted by the first part of Kerrigan's invasion occurring in the desert wasteland outside the city.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
He has the wherewithal to spend trillions on the trifle that is Raynor (and not finding him) over a period of time when they are still rebuilding where it would be better spent making Terran life in the sector much more happier than they are now.
If you're going to say that Mengsk having access to an entire fleet in Omega is not evidence, I am certainly going to dismiss 'spending trillions' as being evidence. Especially since we have no way of knowing if that's really what he was spending his money on.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
The KMC and any other Terran powers are still not heard of in Terran circles with the assumption that this must be because everyone either loves Mengsk's ability to rule them or that he's able to quash any dissenting voices which is backed by his biggest threat being apparently Raynor (where we are also expected to think this a lie/scapegoating technique when we have no basis for that assumption, too) who is a complete wash out when we see him.
The other Terran powers being unheard of is entirely consistent with StarCraft and Brood War. There was never any mention of how the Umojan Protectorate and Kel-Morian Combine reacted to the Confederacy's collapse in the games. Remember that I'm asking you to provide evidence that he is improbably stronger in Wings of Liberty than he was in Brood War, so if you want to use the fact that the other Terran powers are not interfering in Wings as evidence, you need to demonstrate that the other Terran powers were interfering at the end of Brood War, otherwise you can't demonstrate that this is an improvement.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
He has control over everything when it comes to Terran matters and then some by being in cahoots with the ancient cosmic horror that is Narud/Duran to fund labs that create Hybrids!
Creating Hybrids could be done by a random bunch of Terran mercenaries in Dark Origin. This is way easier than assembling a massive fleet.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Can anyone really provide evidence for what is abundantly clear subtext? Come on now, you're just being belligerent now. :D
Is it abundantly clear subtext? There are two things you need to keep in mind:
First, I already believe that Mengsk's recovery for Wings of Liberty is completely absurd. But I also believe that his recovery for Omega is completely absurd. You disagree with me, necessarily asserting that my judgment on Mengsk's state of weakness and recovery is incorrect. You can't then turn around and tell me that I already know that he was in a weak and realistically unrecoverable state after Brood War and therefore you don't need to provide evidence because you trust my judgment on Mengsk's state of weakness and recovery. I have been repeatedly asked to provide evidence for the abundantly clear subtext of Mengsk's recoveries in Brood War, I don't think it is unfair for me to ask the same of you with regards to Wings of Liberty.
Second, there is no subtext about Mengsk being weaker than the other Terran factions. There is no evidence from Brood War that the Umojan Protectorate even exists, never mind evidence about its strength relative to the Dominion. The Kel-Morian Combine does show up in the game, but only to have its capitol world overrun and pillaged by the Zerg and its population infested for suicide bombers. This is equivalent to the Dominion's capitol world being devastated, so evidence would indicate that the balance of power between the Kel-Morian Combine and Dominion has not shifted much, if at all.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
You're right, up until his final outburst. There was a germ of an idea there that Raynor could finally stop beating himself up, wise-up and learn something. Alas, it was not to be.
It might have been, or not. The only thing it demonstrates is that he was angered by Kerrigan's betrayal and realised that she needed to die, and I don't think this was contradicted in Wings of Liberty.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Ask any new person who isn't aware of that history (Sc2 is supposedly an entry point for newcomers afterall) and see if you get the same interpretation that Raynor wanted to kill Kerrigan personally at that time. There are people who know the history and still interpret it that Raynor wouldn't want to kill Kerrigan if given the chance. I do not need to prove it when it's plain to see that the very thing that is written/shown is open to creating a wrong interpretation.
That's not the problem. That passage doesn't need to indicate that he intends to kill her for it not to be a contradiction, it needs to indicate that he doesn't intend to kill her to be a contradiction.
Moreover, I don't believe an audience has to have its hand held every step of the way. It's not like Wings of Liberty (or StarCraft in general) was especially subtle, but now you're complaining that it wasn't explicitly clear enough for your tastes? True Colors is pretty clear that Raynor believes Kerrigan needs to die, and nothing about that scene objectively contradicts it, so why would you choose to interpret it as meaning it is? Certainly, the story could have benefited from being clearer, but that doesn't mean that given a choice between contradiction and non-contradiction in an unclear situation, I choose to assume a contradiction.
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Originally Posted by
Telenil
If that is not evidence that he was far weaker than he was at the beginning of Brood War, compared to other Terran
That's a bit of rhetorical sleight of hand there. Yes, it is evidence that he is far weaker than he was at the beginning of Brood War, but that wasn't what I asked you to demonstrate. Then you append 'compared to other Terrans' as though your first conclusion implies the second, but it does not. Demonstrating that the Dominion is weaker at the end of Brood War than it was at the beginning of Brood War does not demonstrate that the Dominion is weaker at the end of Brood War than other Terran factions are at the end of Brood War.
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Originally Posted by
Telenil
I'm not sure I follow the trail of thoughts, but to answer the question, there is that fact that his armies are capable of leading "five separate invasions" against the Zerg,
He has an army capable of leading an invasion against the Zerg in Omega, and I was quite clearly assured that this is not evidence of recovery.
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Originally Posted by
Telenil
that his rule is completely uncontested except for the weak efforts of a group of rebels operating from a single battlecruiser, and Raynor arguing that the Dominion is going to spin Media Blitz around "like everything else".
And this was not the case at the end of Brood War?
Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
Telenil
I think you could argue pretty much anything with this reasonning.
In order to show that the Dominion is still weak, you are suggesting that it rebuilt his entire army and fleet in one year instead of four. For Kate Lockwell's statement to make sense, "decay" should be interpreted as "build up more slowly".
While we are at it, we could just as well interpret "five separate invasions against the Swarm" as "five defensive battles the Dominion lost" and "spend trillions to hunt Raynor" as "the Dominion military has a budget in the trillions but their only actions were minor skirmishes with the Raiders". So the Dominion was in fact weak, QED.
That's not making sense of the story we have as much as rewriting inconsistent dialogs.
See, those 5 separate invasions against the swarm Warfield was telling Raynor about proved both the Dominion was weak AND that he was an incompetent general.
After all, if he led those invasions, why didn't UNN say anything? The only conclusion is all 5 invasions ended in failure. So much for Mengsk's claim that Warfield will win the war against the Zerg in no time.
Hunting trillions was something I can certainly see, depending on just how much the Dominion siphoned off the fringe worlds for its own funding.
Remember, Mengsk never gave a damn about those worlds, they could all die there for all he cared, even without the Zerg invasion in WoL.
Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Really? Because Mengsk's Dominion was built on the remaining 4 of the 13 Confederate (or does it include Moria and Umoja when it says 'Terran worlds'?) worlds that survived the alien passage. From this, in the span of merely a few months, he has become the most powerful human in the Sector, turned Augustgrad into what is 'easily the most fortified city in all of Dominion space', and become 'a considerable threat' to the UED.
Most of those are relative terms. Because the Confederacy was destroyed is the exact reason he can step in as "the most powerful human in the sector".
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In Brood War he loses one world (the capitol world, but then the Terrans also lost Tarsonis the first time so that's irrelevant) and has far more time to rebuild for Wings of Liberty.
In Brood War he is defeated 3 times in a row. The first time, it was to a far superior army that nobody saw coming and might be excusable in the eyes of all other terrans (except Umoja and the Morians, who abandoned him). Still, he could be considered a credible threat. The second time, it's like, ok, you're not qualified to defend anybody from aliens. The third time, where he squanders all his favors and concessions, he's essentially screwed.
The point isn't that he rebuilt in BW (he didn't) and can't do the same in Wings of Liberty. It's that his coffers ran out, and BW puts him in a position where he's not qualified to rebuild crap.
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If you're going to say that Mengsk having access to an entire fleet in Omega is not evidence, I am certainly going to dismiss 'spending trillions' as being evidence. Especially since we have no way of knowing if that's really what he was spending his money on.
Spending trillions hunting down a rebel is an extravagance. Raising an army to fight the zerg is his job.
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The other Terran powers being unheard of is entirely consistent with StarCraft and Brood War. There was never any mention of how the Umojan Protectorate and Kel-Morian Combine reacted to the Confederacy's collapse in the games.
Yes there is. They joined up with Mengsk. That's what made him the most powerful human in the sector. Contrast this to Wings of Liberty where they've abandoned him years ago and the writers expect us to believe they're sitting on their thumbs doing nothing while Mengsk is lording over everybody.
In the Frontline comics, the Umojans have to smuggle food to their own people in crates by Wings of Liberty.
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Remember that I'm asking you to provide evidence that he is improbably stronger in Wings of Liberty than he was in Brood War, so if you want to use the fact that the other Terran powers are not interfering in Wings as evidence, you need to demonstrate that the other Terran powers were interfering at the end of Brood War, otherwise you can't demonstrate that this is an improvement.
What they were doing in Brood War was trying to stay out of the conflict. Moria was raking in cash while the Dominion was getting demolished, and even Fenix comments on this. This puts them in a perfect position to take advantage of Mengsk's weakness.
As for the Umojans, the fact that we didn't hear from them can lead us to logically deduce that they were doing the same thing and at the least don't deserve to be Mengsk's footstool in WoL. Sure, we can also hypothesize that they also got shafted during the BW and are in no better position to take advantage, but the fact remains that they weren't anybody's target after they split with the Dominion. Kerrigan and the UED only had specific planets they needed destroyed, unlike WoL where Kerrigan invaded everything in sight and you could make the argument that that included Umoja.
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First, I already believe that Mengsk's recovery for Wings of Liberty is completely absurd. But I also believe that his recovery for Omega is completely absurd. You disagree with me, necessarily asserting that my judgment on Mengsk's state of weakness and recovery is incorrect. You can't then turn around and tell me that I already know that he was in a weak and realistically unrecoverable state after Brood War and therefore you don't need to provide evidence because you trust my judgment on Mengsk's state of weakness and recovery. I have been repeatedly asked to provide evidence for the abundantly clear subtext of Mengsk's recoveries in Brood War, I don't think it is unfair for me to ask the same of you with regards to Wings of Liberty.
I still have an issue with the idea that he "recovered" anything in Brood War. There was neither time to do so, nor any reason given that he commands more than one planet. It's like if Washington DC was destroyed by aliens, but Obama rallied some troops from Fort Hood and Fort Bragg and you'd say "but how did he miraculously recover so fast!"
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Second, there is no subtext about Mengsk being weaker than the other Terran factions. There is no evidence from Brood War that the Umojan Protectorate even exists, never mind evidence about its strength relative to the Dominion. The Kel-Morian Combine does show up in the game, but only to have its capitol world overrun and pillaged by the Zerg and its population infested for suicide bombers. This is equivalent to the Dominion's capitol world being devastated, so evidence would indicate that the balance of power between the Kel-Morian Combine and Dominion has not shifted much, if at all.
It was a resource raid. There's no reason to believe Raynor/Fenix would allow genocide. At best, they sacked one city. Never mind the fact that the Morians must also control more than one planet.
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Demonstrating that the Dominion is weaker at the end of Brood War than it was at the beginning of Brood War does not demonstrate that the Dominion is weaker at the end of Brood War than other Terran factions are at the end of Brood War.
It could be easily argued that Moria is in a better spot than the Dominion, even with your "the entire planet got infested" scenario. They were only attacked once, whereas Korhal got sacked twice (3 if you count the UED).
But the problem is the idea that Mengsk is the only one capable of leading the terrans. It's absurd. There has to be somebody in the Dominion or Moria/Umoja who would make a better candidate than him. Not to mention all the new planets that were retconned into existence to support Mengsk's recovery. The 13 terran core worlds figure can basically be tossed into the trash bin at this point.
And really the recovery was ridiculous. Nobody would have minded Mengsk returning to SoK status, not commanding a vast empire of planets and constantly throwing money away left and right. Kerrigan easily sacked Korhal in BW. Twice. In SC2, it was the "toughest fight of her life" and "millions will die in the initial landing". She had to give orders to Zagara to take the swarm away in case she lost. It's a complete joke.
Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Most of those are relative terms. Because the Confederacy was destroyed is the exact reason he can step in as "the most powerful human in the sector".
Okay, using absolute terms, demonstrate that Mengsk is unreasonably more powerful in Wings of Liberty than he should be.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
In Brood War he is defeated 3 times in a row. The first time, it was to a far superior army that nobody saw coming and might be excusable in the eyes of all other terrans (except Umoja and the Morians, who abandoned him). Still, he could be considered a credible threat. The second time, it's like, ok, you're not qualified to defend anybody from aliens. The third time, where he squanders all his favors and concessions, he's essentially screwed.
So? The Zerg get defeated all over the place and only become more powerful. Being defeated doesn't mean you're annihilated. In fact, Omega makes it a point that Mengsk's fleet was not annihilated by contrasting it to the UED's. He was forced to retreat. Truly, he is unfit for leadership because he hasn't had any more success against the Zerg than anyone else.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
The point isn't that he rebuilt in BW (he didn't) and can't do the same in Wings of Liberty. It's that his coffers ran out, and BW puts him in a position where he's not qualified to rebuild crap.
Do you have any evidence?
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Spending trillions hunting down a rebel is an extravagance. Raising an army to fight the zerg is his job.
Protecting his people from terrorists is also his job, and that's assuming Kate Lockwell somehow has accurate information about Dominion spending. I'm not expecting much transparency from the Dominion government.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Yes there is. They joined up with Mengsk. That's what made him the most powerful human in the sector.
Source?
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
In the Frontline comics, the Umojans have to smuggle food to their own people in crates by Wings of Liberty.
I haven't read the Frontline comics, and they're irrelevant: if there is a problem in Wings of Liberty, the evidence should come from Wings of Liberty.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
What they were doing in Brood War was trying to stay out of the conflict. Moria was raking in cash while the Dominion was getting demolished, and even Fenix comments on this. This puts them in a perfect position to take advantage of Mengsk's weakness.
So Mengsk getting demolished on Korhal puts him in an unrecoverable position, the KMC getting demolished on Moria puts them in a perfect position to overthrow Mengsk? I disagree.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
As for the Umojans, the fact that we didn't hear from them can lead us to logically deduce that they were doing the same thing and at the least don't deserve to be Mengsk's footstool in WoL. Sure, we can also hypothesize that they also got shafted during the BW and are in no better position to take advantage, but the fact remains that they weren't anybody's target after they split with the Dominion. Kerrigan and the UED only had specific planets they needed destroyed, unlike WoL where Kerrigan invaded everything in sight and you could make the argument that that included Umoja.
It's hard to say if they were someone's target or not when they don't appear. Either way there doesn't need to be any specific reason to invade Umoja: The Stand demonstrates that Cerebrates can just appear on a planet for absolutely no reason and have the power to wipe out the entire Protoss species, so there's no reason to assume that Umoja got spared.
Not that this is important. If you want to say that the Umojan's situation relative to the Dominion in Wings of Liberty is problematic, you first need to demonstrate their situation relative to the Dominion at the end of Brood War.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
I still have an issue with the idea that he "recovered" anything in Brood War. There was neither time to do so, nor any reason given that he commands more than one planet. It's like if Washington DC was destroyed by aliens, but Obama rallied some troops from Fort Hood and Fort Bragg and you'd say "but how did he miraculously recover so fast!"
I know you do, which is why I accepted to invert the issue and asked you to demonstrate that Mengsk had problematically recovered in Wings of Liberty.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
It was a resource raid. There's no reason to believe Raynor/Fenix would allow genocide. At best, they sacked one city. Never mind the fact that the Morians must also control more than one planet.
Even if I were willing to accept all your assumptions, you still have not demonstrated that the Kel-Morian Combine had the power to push Mengsk around at the end of Brood War.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
It could be easily argued that Moria is in a better spot than the Dominion, even with your "the entire planet got infested" scenario. They were only attacked once, whereas Korhal got sacked twice (3 if you count the UED).
But the problem is the idea that Mengsk is the only one capable of leading the terrans. It's absurd. There has to be somebody in the Dominion or Moria/Umoja who would make a better candidate than him. Not to mention all the new planets that were retconned into existence to support Mengsk's recovery. The 13 terran core worlds figure can basically be tossed into the trash bin at this point.
And really the recovery was ridiculous. Nobody would have minded Mengsk returning to SoK status, not commanding a vast empire of planets and constantly throwing money away left and right. Kerrigan easily sacked Korhal in BW. Twice. In SC2, it was the "toughest fight of her life" and "millions will die in the initial landing". She had to give orders to Zagara to take the swarm away in case she lost. It's a complete joke.
Or, it could be the complete opposite of what you say: in Brood War Kerrigan was only able to conquer Korhal by allying herself with the Protoss and the Dominion - two of the most powerful factions in the game - and sacking the Kel-Morian Combine for resources, then betraying her allies to gain a definitive advantage. In StarCraft II, even after losing a vast amount of her Broods in space after her deinfestation, and leaving a massive portion of her remaining warriors in space during the actual invasion, and Mengsk getting all the time to fortify himself on Korhal, and taking a deliberate strategic disadvantage to reduce civilian casualties, and Mengsk pulling out a magic macguffin out of his arse that straight-up kills Zerg, Kerrigan still had no problem taking Korhal. Clearly, Korhal was incredibly stronger in Brood War, and this is clear evidence that Mengsk never recovered from his losses then. There you go, evidence that Mengsk never recovered.
