Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Well, the whole point of True Colors is that Kerrigan considers him (or more accurately Duke and his forces) a threat, Kerrigan obviously considers him relevant. There's no indication that he's "dipping in a well that is quickly becoming dry", he doesn't sound increasingly desperate, his reaction to defeat in Omega is the same as in Emperor's Fall - he swears that he'll be back soon.
The Emperor's Fall defeat was pretty crushing, and I'm sure it was nothing but empty bravado on Mengsk's part. It doesn't make much sense that their victory meant "little" to him. Same with Omega. He spent the majority of his life in rebellion, and believes he can easily replicate his success. That's part of what makes his character stupid in BW.
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Actually, you'll find that I pointed out Mengsk's stupidity in Brood War long ago. And yes, rebuilding his empire that well in only five years is incredibly improbable, but it's actually far more plausible than previously established events. I point out those other two times that Mengsk became relevant after being deposed within the span of about one month in Brood War, but that's not all - I remember in another thread some time ago I argued that the Terrans should have been the strongest faction after StarCraft after humanity was united by Mengsk and the Protoss and Zerg slaughtered each other on Aiur, and someone proved me wrong by quoting the opening to Overmind:
"The Swarms have crushed the meager human resistance and laid waste to nine of the thirteen Terran worlds."
This is what the sate of humanity was like before Mengsk built his empire the first time, in only a few months.
And then of course there's the logistics behind the UED invasion, which are the most staggeringly insane of the lot.
I'm not saying that Mengsk's recuperation for Wings of Liberty isn't insane by realistic standards, I'm saying that it is staggeringly sane by Brood War's standards. So why has this suddenly become a problem now?
There's no evidence that he "recovered" anything. He was hacked down piece by piece in BW. The end result is him wielding a mere minuscule of the amount of power that he once had. In SC2 he pulls assets that he doesn't have or shouldn't even exist out of nowhere. It's a completely different situation.
Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
How does taking advantage of your enemies' mistakes to succeed at achieving your objectives not count as a victory?
Because it's not really YOUR victory. From the Dominion civilians' POV, if the UED truly lost control over the Zerg broods on Korhal, that's great. But the Dominion army had nothing to do with that.
So, I will say the same thing Glados told Wheatley when Chell put him in control of the Aperture Science Facility: "You didn't do anything. She did all the work."
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
The Emperor's Fall defeat was pretty crushing, and I'm sure it was nothing but empty bravado on Mengsk's part. It doesn't make much sense that their victory meant "little" to him. Same with Omega. He spent the majority of his life in rebellion, and believes he can easily replicate his success. That's part of what makes his character stupid in BW.
Not STUPID per se, Gradius, more like his arrogance was off the charts, THAT'S what cost him in HotS.
Besides, as a politician, he still had plenty of ways to manipulate the people, hence why they still followed him by the end of the Brood War, even though they had plenty of reasons not to.
Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
The Emperor's Fall defeat was pretty crushing, and I'm sure it was nothing but empty bravado on Mengsk's part. It doesn't make much sense that their victory meant "little" to him. Same with Omega. He spent the majority of his life in rebellion, and believes he can easily replicate his success. That's part of what makes his character stupid in BW.
Exactly. And yet he still recovered from his pretty crushing defeat in Emperor's Fall, twice, so there is no reason to think that given 60 times the amount of time, he couldn't recover from his similarly crushing defeat in Omega.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
There's no evidence that he "recovered" anything. He was hacked down piece by piece in BW.
Yes there is. His power was a threat that had to be dealt with. Twice. That's clear evidence that he recovered. What there is no evidence of is that he was "hacked piece by piece". Or that his defeat in Omega was worse than his defeat in True Colors.
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
Because it's not really YOUR victory. From the Dominion civilians' POV, if the UED truly lost control over the Zerg broods on Korhal, that's great. But the Dominion army had nothing to do with that.
Yes they did. They took advantage of the chaos to kick out both the UED and the Zerg. And by your reasoning, Mengsk overthrowing the Confederacy wasn't a victory because it was due to the Confederacy's own dangerous research into the Zerg, killing Zasz wasn't a victory because it was due to Kerrigan's own arrogance and simplicity and Kerrigan never gets a victory in all of Brood War because all her enemies are gullible saps.
Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Yes there is. His power was a threat that had to be dealt with. Twice. That's clear evidence that he recovered. What there is no evidence of is that he was "hacked piece by piece". Or that his defeat in Omega was worse than his defeat in True Colors.
Yeah, but do you think the public could be kept in the dark about such a defeat INDEFINITELY? Remember, NO ONE knew at the end of BW that the Zerg would suddenly vanish from sight for the next 4 years, which means the civilian population was still in a state of panic as to what to do if the Zerg invade again. After all, the knew that despite Korhal back in Dominion hands, the UED had decimated the Dominion military.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Yes they did. They took advantage of the chaos to kick out both the UED and the Zerg. And by your reasoning, Mengsk overthrowing the Confederacy wasn't a victory because it was due to the Confederacy's own dangerous research into the Zerg, killing Zasz wasn't a victory because it was due to Kerrigan's own arrogance and simplicity and Kerrigan never gets a victory in all of Brood War because all her enemies are gullible saps.
True, I'll give you that one from the Dominion civilians' POV. Still, I just feel there had to be some who felt the numbers don't add up.
Technically Kerrigan's enemies WERE stupid in Brood War.
Killing Zasz you could have said the same thing because her arrogance WAS high, only forced down at the end of WoL.
In that event, we could also say Tassadar's actions in killing the Overmind wasn't a real victory either because the swarm just swapped one leader for another.
Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
That's not the point I was trying to make. I wasn't saying there were no competitors, I was just trying to point out that normal civilians wouldn't know the full story about Mengsk, and that there's a difference between the player and a person living as a Starcraft character.
What normal civilians would know could easily tie into the presence of other competitors. How else could Mengsk have been able climb on and lord over the corpse of the Confederacy without denouncing them first? It doesn't really take a genius for someone else to use slander as propaganda. Any competitor would have plenty of ammunition due to Mengsk's display in BW - there would be plenty of witnesses to his defeat at the hands of the UED. I'd be surprised that many wouldn't want and try to defect to some other cause to get off the sinking ship that was Mengsk's Dominion.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
There's no indication that he's "dipping in a well that is quickly becoming dry", he doesn't sound increasingly desperate, his reaction to defeat in Omega is the same as in Emperor's Fall - he swears that he'll be back soon.
What, so you think that Mengsk can seemingly take infinite body blows without nary a consequence and that that's OK? Besides, a man such as Mengsk, who is so full of himself, would never let on that he's on a downward spiral. Doesn't mean that that's evidence that he's invincible and godly forever more...
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Actually, you'll find that I pointed out Mengsk's stupidity in Brood War long ago.
That was never in doubt. I was highlighting that specifically as another reason for Mengsk's improbability of coming back.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
And yes, rebuilding his empire that well in only five years is incredibly improbable, but it's actually far more plausible than previously established events. I point out those other two times that Mengsk became relevant after being deposed within the span of about one month in Brood War, but that's not all - I remember in another thread some time ago I argued that the Terrans should have been the strongest faction after StarCraft after humanity was united by Mengsk and the Protoss and Zerg slaughtered each other on Aiur, and someone proved me wrong by quoting the opening to Overmind:
"The Swarms have crushed the meager human resistance and laid waste to nine of the thirteen Terran worlds."
This is what the sate of humanity was like before Mengsk built his empire the first time, in only a few months.
And then of course there's the logistics behind the UED invasion, which are the most staggeringly insane of the lot.
I'm not saying that Mengsk's recuperation for Wings of Liberty isn't insane by realistic standards, I'm saying that it is staggeringly sane by Brood War's standards. So why has this suddenly become a problem now?
It is a problem because you seem to be taking take this situation as a vaccumm with no regard to consequence or hint of cause and effect.
As I said before, the question of whether Mengsk ever becomes relevant in BW is debatable and you yourself then admit that when you mentioned his "relevancy" it was in terms of a subjective POV of the characters in that universe. If one were to step back and consider the perspective of one outside looking in, Mengsk is not objectively a relevent threat to anyone in BW. What relevency he had after his rescue was only because Kerrigan and Raynor permitted him to have it. The Terran force he "commands" are remnant of what was left after his capture - with the rest being most likely pressed into UED holdings or destroyed. When his remaining loyal army (a mere shadow of what is was before the UED usurped him) is crushed in True Colours he has to make concessions and rely on his 'silver tongue' as a last resort to round up and borrow a fleet on the proviso he kill Kerrigan with it. He then proceeds to fail to live up to that promise. He is now indebted to others whilst having nothing of his own to wager now. There is no way his silver tongue can get him out of that situation. So, by the end of BW, Mengsk has literally lost everything!
As to the size of Mengsk's empire at the end of Rebel Yell, there are really no indications of how strong the Terrans could potentially be. Taking into account the loss of nine (of thirteen) core worlds and that both his ventures (through Duke) against the Zerg and the Protoss in Sc1 fail miserably, it would be overly optimistic to think the Terrans would have any chance even with Mengsk at the helm. It's also important to note that The Inauguration cinematic is propaganda, not a true reflection of actual Terran might/capability.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
This is also not something I consider problematic in Wings of Liberty. Raynor's character progression isn't complicated, anger isn't an emotion with a lot of staying power. Nor is there any sign that Raynor has abandoned the notion that Kerrigan needs to be killed, not until Valerian shows up with his magic plot device. When the anger subsides, all he's left with is the realisation that he's going to have to kill the woman he loves, and he keeps trying to avoid it. The alcoholism, his interactions with Horner, distracting himself by focusing on Mengsk, it's all pretty consistent.
There's a lot I could say about this but I and many others have said it before and more succinctly. Simply put, there is no progression of Raynor's character from BW into Sc2 and that's the problem. You can transplant Sc1 Raynor directly into Sc2 without knowledge of BW and you'd be none the wiser.
Saying "anger isn't an emotion without staying power" is fraught with problems because how one feels an emotion is, by and large, relative. I could just as easily say "love isn't an emotion with a lot of staying power" too and cite numerous cases throughout the history of all humankind to easily support that notion. Also, to say Raynor always had that sort of "everlasting love" with Kerrigan is debatable. There was a connection sure, but "everlasting love"? Besides, I think that anger (and frustration) is perhaps the only one thing that Raynor feels in WoL and what is keeping him going. Otherwise, why drink if he's not angry with himself? Why wage war with Mengsk, if not being angry (albeit somewhat misplaced and projected) at his decision to leave Kerrigan at New Gettysburg? Why does he let go of this specific anger he has towards Kerrigan then? We are never given any possible reason to answer that last question anywhere in WoL. That is a problem when you're working with a sequel, which naturally implies some sort of continuity/consistency or an acknowledgement of previous things before changing something wholesale on, what looks like, a whim.
As to Raynor not abandoning the notion of killing Kerrigan, that is with the presumption that the audience member has played BW. Not knowing that history (and even then if you did know it), there is a definite and legitimate cause for some to interpret that Raynor never intended to kill her from the start just by his forlorn looks at Kerrigan's picture. People note that something has changed here.
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Sure, but I totally believe that the Overmind was never supposed to be 'good', I don't think this is some kind of damage control, just shoddy writing.
Just like I think that everyone else believes that the Overmind was never supposed to be good either. That's why all the contention and hoo-haa erupted when they seemingly opened the door for such an interpretation to be made possible.
Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Actually, you'll find that I pointed out Mengsk's stupidity in Brood War long ago. And yes, rebuilding his empire that well in only five years is incredibly improbable, but it's actually far more plausible than previously established events. I point out those other two times that Mengsk became relevant after being deposed within the span of about one month in Brood War...
This right here is a big problem with Starcraft. It's not just Mengsk who has been doing some quick recovering, but everything else is just too dang fast as well. If the entirety of Starcraft and BW were to have taken place in one year, that's a lot of doing. That would mean that Mengsk destroyed the Confederacy, Aiur fell, Shakuras' battles happened, the UED defeated Mengsk, and Kerrigan trounced everybody all in less than the span of a year. A war on Earth can last several years, but a battle between several planets takes a month or two? Mengsk fighting the Confederacy by itself could have taken half a decade. Then Aiur, the homeworld of a race that can blow up entire planets, takes less than a year to defeat? Does Aldaris suck that bad at strategy?
While I'm willing to assume that some of the events of Brood War took place at the same time (with Kerri on Shakuras and Duran over with the UED, it's easy enough to believe that much of the Protoss and Terran missions happened concurrently), there's no way the entirety of these two games took just one year. While before SC2 came out, we could sort of ignore the deflation of time (I don't believe a timeline was established, though I could be wrong), but then new lore steps in and makes an artificial open period of four years for no reason.
Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
There's a lot I could say about this but I and many others have said it before and more succinctly. Simply put, there is no progression of Raynor's character from BW into Sc2 and that's the problem. You can transplant Sc1 Raynor directly into Sc2 without knowledge of BW and you'd be none the wiser.
Saying "anger isn't an emotion without staying power" is fraught with problems because how one feels an emotion is, by and large, relative. I could just as easily say "love isn't an emotion with a lot of staying power" too and cite numerous cases throughout the history of all humankind to easily support that notion. Also, to say Raynor always had that sort of "everlasting love" with Kerrigan is debatable. There was a connection sure, but "everlasting love"? Besides, I think that anger (and frustration) is perhaps the only one thing that Raynor feels in WoL and what is keeping him going. Otherwise, why drink if he's not angry with himself? Why wage war with Mengsk, if not being angry (albeit somewhat misplaced and projected) at his decision to leave Kerrigan at New Gettysburg? Why does he let go of this specific anger he has towards Kerrigan then? We are never given any possible reason to answer that last question anywhere in WoL. That is a problem when you're working with a sequel, which naturally implies some sort of continuity/consistency or an acknowledgement of previous things before changing something wholesale on, what looks like, a whim.
As to Raynor not abandoning the notion of killing Kerrigan, that is with the presumption that the audience member has played BW. Not knowing that history (and even then if you did know it), there is a definite and legitimate cause for some to interpret that Raynor never intended to kill her from the start just by his forlorn looks at Kerrigan's picture. People note that something has changed here.
See, this was the problem Blizzard REALLY messed up from BW to WoL. They had NEVER stated Raynor's anger towards Kerrigan's actions in "True Colors" eventually turned to guilt. Blizzard claimed Raynor had felt this way by the end of BW, but they had never stated it, not even in WoL.
As a result, the transition of anger to guilt made no sense. Ok fine it's been 4 years, but still.
I don't believe anger and frustration was all that kept Raynor going. He knew by the end of BW that getting Kerrigan back was near impossible, hence why he turned back to dealing with Mengsk. Raynor felt Mengsk did not deserve to walk away from all this. He made it clear in WoL that he would never rest until Mengsk was brought to justice. That was one of those things that kept him going, even though the rebellions weren't having the effect he wanted.
For the beginning of WoL just by him looking at the pic of Kerrigan, it doesn't take a genius to know he still wanted her back. The only matter people didn't know was what made him ultimately abandon his vow.
In retrospect, some may have thought he didn't abandon it at all. After the Monlyth mission in getting the 2nd artifact, and Matt had asked him if he was ok, Raynor told him that Kerrigan had to be stopped, one way or another. This implied that Raynor knew he still had to kill her.
Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
Nissa
This right here is a big problem with Starcraft... but everything else is just too dang fast as well.
I've touched on this before but you make an interesting point that's worth considering. Wouldn't things moving "too dang fast" justify the Dominion's speedy recovery? If things already happen so quickly in one year than five years is, relatively, a lot of time for lots of things to happen quickly, right? It's funny how that justification falls apart when in all that time, there are conveniently no other real big significant changes in status quo or conflicts throughout that time.
One could easily ask why hasn't Aiur been recaptured yet? Why hasn't Raynor's anger returned when he realised 3 years (why not? it's just as arbitrary as anything else) into it that shifting to self-guilt was doing him no good? It's been 5 years afterall. Why is the 5 year excuse acceptable for somethings, big or small, and not others? All in all, lazy and shoddy writing is the answer for all.
Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Exactly. And yet he still recovered from his pretty crushing defeat in Emperor's Fall, twice, so there is no reason to think that given 60 times the amount of time, he couldn't recover from his similarly crushing defeat in Omega.
Yes there is. His power was a threat that had to be dealt with. Twice. That's clear evidence that he recovered. What there is no evidence of is that he was "hacked piece by piece". Or that his defeat in Omega was worse than his defeat in True Colors.
That's not evidence he recovered. He was the commander of multiple systems of planets. Korhal was sacked, but he can still draw forces from other places. With each defeat, his reputation and military was downgraded. He went from 100% to 50% to 10%. It's like a volume knob, not a on/off switch.
And yes, his 10% at Omega wasn't enough to do much at all. All of Kerrigan's broods were on the surface of Char and a single Cerebrate defeated him and two other forces that were also shadows of their former power. Pretty consistent.
Re: Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?
Nice to know that my little mention of the Dominion at the top of page 4 turned this into a full-blown debate regarding if their bullshyt return to all-powerful in WoL was justified or not (No, no it wasn't). It always feels good knowing I wasn't the only one that had a problem with this.
My favorite contradiction regarding the whole Dominion falling apart ordeal had to be Kerrigan's line to Mengsk at the end of True Colors which basically outright confirmed that the writer's intent in BW was to have Mengsk fall apart, and that Kerrigan would never allow Mengsk to return to power while she was alive and kicking people down...then comes WoL, and he somehow does just that, and even somehow poses a threat in HotS. Ya...great job there Kerrigan! You sure kept him down for the count for four years!
I already mentioned before that what I dislike the most about the Dominion's sudden rebirth is that it is a complete failure of continuation. Throughout Brood War, I was led to believe that the losses we, the player, were inflicting against Mengsk was weakening him as time went on. That as every battle went by, the Dominion was slowly falling apart thanks to our action. Wings of Liberty comes around, and suddenly, you realize that everything that you had done to them previously throughout Brood War was all for naught; filler that could be easily skipped over as it didn't amount to anything important in the long run; not even a single glimpse of struggle to rebuild (Hell, Mengsk has even wasted trillions of dollars just to chase a single terrorist down!). Sure, Duke is gone, but it's not like Mengsk is struggling in any way without his supposed top general. He might as well have just painted his skin blank, and renamed himself Warfield for all I care. They share a course of incompetence after all.
Sad thing is, they fell into this exact problem again regarding the Korhal rebellion from WoL to HotS. What is it about the transition between games that the writers always fail to accomplish a legitimate continuation? Even the switch from Sc1 to BW, people found to be questionable regarding Aiur suddenly being impossible to live in.
