Re: Confess your Nerditude
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheEconomist
I liked the Dark Templar Saga enough to read the trilogy through twice fairly quickly. It showed so much promise that it was one primary things that blinded me to all of the indicators, that, in hindsight, should've been obvious. I should've never anticipated StarCraft II's lore to begin with, should have just stuck with MP.
Well, Einjarhar and I talked this over on skype. Despite the new lore and old lore, the primal Zerg idea COULD have worked to the SC1 manual if they had done it a bit smartly. Christie Golden's actions in writing the 3 DT saga books, however, made it impossible to match that of the Protoss lore in the SC1 manual.
Not to say she did a crappy job, I still liked all 3 books, but Blizzard's claim they're a prequel to the SC2 trilogy has been relatively unconvincing, especially with the whole prophecy. WoL gave us almost no answers, HotS didn't do much better, meaning that less than 10% of the prophecy has actually been explained, and that's not smart to try to cram it all into LotV.
Re: Confess your Nerditude
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
Christie Golden's actions in writing the 3 DT saga books, however, made it impossible to match that of the Protoss lore in the SC1 manual.
Ugh, I was so disappointed that they made it so that the Protoss were at a caveman level of technology for the Aeon of Strife. Seriously, that was so awful. Wow, Protoss fighting with knives— at that rate, fighting the Conclave to free Tassadar would have been far more destructive than the worst conflict in Protoss history. Pre-SC2/DT saga, people envisioned, you know, real Protoss fighting. And then a couple of guys invent mapmaking and geometry and all that in a couple of days. Ugh, ugh, ugh.
Oh yeah, back on topic, the over 200 hours I've spent on those Starcraft-to-Scale charts. Also for a poetry assignment in elementary school, I wrote two poems about zerglings.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
Christie Golden's actions in writing the 3 DT saga books, however, made it impossible to match that of the Protoss lore in the SC1 manual.
Ugh, I was so disappointed that they made it so that the Protoss were at a caveman level of technology for the Aeon of Strife. Seriously, that was so awful. Wow, Protoss fighting with knives— at that rate, fighting the Conclave to free Tassadar would have been far more destructive than the worst conflict in Protoss history. Pre-SC2/DT saga, people envisioned, you know, real Protoss fighting. And then a couple of guys invent mapmaking and geometry and all that in a couple of days. Ugh, ugh, ugh.
Oh yeah, back on topic, the over 200 hours I've spent on those Starcraft-to-Scale charts. Also for a poetry assignment in elementary school, I wrote two poems about zerglings.
Re: Confess your Nerditude
Ah, so Robear, you're saying we shouldn't read the Dark Templar trilogy? I knew they were bad, but that bad? Ugh.
I'm a grump on the matter, and I'm going to say that only stuff in SC1, its manual, and Brood War count as plot. Sorry, FT, but despite the choice of bringing in the UED, I feel Brood War does represent a good entry, and Zeratul's actions only confirmed his personality -- small scale, detailed leadership for specific missions, as opposed to large scale, civilian leadership for the generic purpose of survival.
Re: Confess your Nerditude
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nissa
Ah, so Robear, you're saying we shouldn't read the Dark Templar trilogy? I knew they were bad, but that bad? Ugh.
I'm a grump on the matter, and I'm going to say that only stuff in SC1, its manual, and Brood War count as plot. Sorry, FT, but despite the choice of bringing in the UED, I feel Brood War does represent a good entry, and Zeratul's actions only confirmed his personality -- small scale, detailed leadership for specific missions, as opposed to large scale, civilian leadership for the generic purpose of survival.
No need to apologise, it's a popular opinion. I still think Wings of Liberty has more interesting ideas to it though. Brood War had nothing to offer beyond the evacuation of Aiur.
Re: Confess your Nerditude
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
No need to apologise, it's a popular opinion. I still think Wings of Liberty has more interesting ideas to it though. Brood War had nothing to offer beyond the evacuation of Aiur.
I don't quite get what you mean. I feel that Brood War is far more interesting, unless you're talking in terms of gameplay. I just love the idea that everyone struggled for the entire game to realize that the Zerg are the real baddies, and by then it's too late, because we learn about the hybrids.
Oh, and I liked the choosing of battlecruisers or nukes in the anti-Mengsk mission.
Re: Confess your Nerditude
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nissa
I don't quite get what you mean. I feel that Brood War is far more interesting, unless you're talking in terms of gameplay. I just love the idea that everyone struggled for the entire game to realize that the Zerg are the real baddies, and by then it's too late, because we learn about the hybrids.
Short version: aside from the escape from Aiur, and Dark Origins nothing of interest happens in Brood War. The Protoss campaign is about fetching macguffins to power another macguffin to eradicate an irrelevant subfaction of Zerg. The UED is your standard alien invasion, and despite being ostensibly about combating the threat of non-humans, they spend nearly the entirety of their campaign fighting other Terrans. The creation of a second Overmind is one of the dumbest and laziest ideas in all of StarCraft, right up there with Kerrigan getting infested/defested/reinfested just so they can keep changing her personality with no actual character development. Brood War started the notion of the Protoss being ridiculously weak and the notion that the Zerg are not a faction unto themselves, but merely a weapon for others to use to accomplish their own goals. Nearly every character becomes incredibly dumb so that Kerrigan can appear smarter by comparison, and she needs all the help she can get.
Long version.
Re: Confess your Nerditude
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Short version: aside from the escape from Aiur, and
Dark Origins nothing of interest happens in
Brood War. The Protoss campaign is about fetching macguffins to power another macguffin to eradicate an irrelevant subfaction of Zerg. The UED is your standard alien invasion, and despite being ostensibly about combating the threat of non-humans, they spend nearly the entirety of their campaign fighting other Terrans. The creation of a second Overmind is one of the dumbest and laziest ideas in all of
StarCraft, right up there with Kerrigan getting infested/defested/reinfested just so they can keep changing her personality with no actual character development.
Brood War started the notion of the Protoss being ridiculously weak
and the notion that the Zerg are not a faction unto themselves, but merely a weapon for others to use to accomplish their own goals. Nearly every character becomes incredibly dumb so that Kerrigan can appear smarter by comparison, and she needs all the help she can get.
Long version.
I see. I don't find the second Overmind at all lazy, though. Since the Zerg are so heavily dependent on the few intelligent figures they have, it makes perfect sense to me that they would try to make a second overmind. Not that you don't have a point. It's a bit tiresome for us when Tassadar has just gloriously killed the Overmind, and then suddenly there's a new one. Still, it's a logical thing for the Zerg to do, given how singular minded they are, and generally lacking in creativity.
Call me unsophisticated, but I don't mind...sort of, the magical macguffins Uraj and Khalis. Well, I don't mind the temple itself. It's weird that two magical crystals are off-world and still known about. I'd be okay with it if recently translated remarks in the temple itself mentioned them, rather than Raszagal knowing about them without explanation. Sure, it's never explained how the Zerg got through the warp gate when Raynor and Fenix were blocking the way, or that none of the Dark Templar reacted to the fact the Khalai 'Toss, even accidentally, brought the Zerg with them. Okay, that's dumb. They probably should have established something with the UED and the 'Toss. I dunno.
Um, the Zerg were never really a faction unto themselves. They were always a bunch of stupid, depraved animals bent to the will of the Overmind, and even then were manipulated by Mengsk's psi transmitters. Zerg are, by their nature, manipulatible.
Edit: I looked at your long version, and I have a bit of an objection to your assessment of Aldaris. You call him religious, but the only really religious thing about him is his terminology. He's no more religious than Zeratul, and they both make statements like "by the gods". The conflict between the Protoss is about as religious as Ireland's -- they say it's Catholic vs Protestant, but it's really Irish vs. British.
Keep in mind that Protoss gods are probably very similar, as they possibly pre-date the Khala. The Khala, as more of a philosophy/life style, is not religious, and does not appear to replace any gods. Also, there's no reason for the Dark Templar not to have sacred ground. Why not? While you can call DT culture more individualistic, that doesn't mean everything they do, down to the last atom, is individualistic. And what's so individual about not having sacred ground? That has no relevance to ritual or nomadism.
As far as Raszagal goes, I always assumed she was there to steward the younger, more vulnerable Dark Templar, who settled on the planet because of the temple. Given Zeratul's frequent trips, there's no reason to assume that she in any way prevented anyone from traveling around. Why can't the DTs have somewhere to call home, even if it's a cold blue world? She was a very relaxed leader, one who I don't see handling conflict well because she's so relaxed. Presumably anyone who didn't like her leadership could just leave, and she wouldn't stop them.
And as far as silencing Aldaris, that was very, very obviously an example of Kerrigan manipulating what Raszagal says. "Silence, Judicator" is not something Ras would say, but rather Kerrigan. We never get to see Raszagal at her best, because she's been manipulated since before the missions started, as other dialogue implies. You could have guessed this by noticing how different "Silence, Judicator" is from the welcoming speech she gave when she first appears.
Re: Confess your Nerditude
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nissa
Um, the Zerg were never really a faction unto themselves. They were always a bunch of stupid, depraved animals bent to the will of the Overmind, and even then were manipulated by Mengsk's psi transmitters. Zerg are, by their nature, manipulatible.
Don't listen to these lies and blasphemy!
The Zerg are kind, caring and only wish to give others the chance to partake in the gift that is the hivemind. :p
Re: Confess your Nerditude
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Robear
Ugh, I was so disappointed that they made it so that the Protoss were at a caveman level of technology for the Aeon of Strife. Seriously, that was so awful. Wow, Protoss fighting with knives— at that rate, fighting the Conclave to free Tassadar would have been far more destructive than the worst conflict in Protoss history. Pre-SC2/DT saga, people envisioned, you know, real Protoss fighting. And then a couple of guys invent mapmaking and geometry and all that in a couple of days. Ugh, ugh, ugh.
Oh yeah, back on topic, the over 200 hours I've spent on those Starcraft-to-Scale charts. Also for a poetry assignment in elementary school, I wrote two poems about zerglings.
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Ugh, I was so disappointed that they made it so that the Protoss were at a caveman level of technology for the Aeon of Strife. Seriously, that was so awful. Wow, Protoss fighting with knives— at that rate, fighting the Conclave to free Tassadar would have been far more destructive than the worst conflict in Protoss history. Pre-SC2/DT saga, people envisioned, you know, real Protoss fighting. And then a couple of guys invent mapmaking and geometry and all that in a couple of days. Ugh, ugh, ugh.
Oh yeah, back on topic, the over 200 hours I've spent on those Starcraft-to-Scale charts. Also for a poetry assignment in elementary school, I wrote two poems about zerglings.
That was the flaw in those books. The Protoss are supposed to be a very highly technological race, their tech reverse engineered from the Xel'Naga.
Now, Golden isn't a bad author, but her emphasis that they relied so heavily on the Khaydarin Crystals for virtually EVERYTHING almost turned the Protoss people into nothing but a bunch of space leprechauns.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Robear
Ugh, I was so disappointed that they made it so that the Protoss were at a caveman level of technology for the Aeon of Strife. Seriously, that was so awful. Wow, Protoss fighting with knives— at that rate, fighting the Conclave to free Tassadar would have been far more destructive than the worst conflict in Protoss history. Pre-SC2/DT saga, people envisioned, you know, real Protoss fighting. And then a couple of guys invent mapmaking and geometry and all that in a couple of days. Ugh, ugh, ugh.
Oh yeah, back on topic, the over 200 hours I've spent on those Starcraft-to-Scale charts. Also for a poetry assignment in elementary school, I wrote two poems about zerglings.
- - - Updated - - -
Ugh, I was so disappointed that they made it so that the Protoss were at a caveman level of technology for the Aeon of Strife. Seriously, that was so awful. Wow, Protoss fighting with knives— at that rate, fighting the Conclave to free Tassadar would have been far more destructive than the worst conflict in Protoss history. Pre-SC2/DT saga, people envisioned, you know, real Protoss fighting. And then a couple of guys invent mapmaking and geometry and all that in a couple of days. Ugh, ugh, ugh.
Oh yeah, back on topic, the over 200 hours I've spent on those Starcraft-to-Scale charts. Also for a poetry assignment in elementary school, I wrote two poems about zerglings.
That was the flaw in those books. The Protoss are supposed to be a very highly technological race, their tech reverse engineered from the Xel'Naga.
Now, Golden isn't a bad author, but her emphasis that they relied so heavily on the Khaydarin Crystals for virtually EVERYTHING almost turned the Protoss people into nothing but a bunch of space leprechauns.
Re: Confess your Nerditude
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nissa
I see. I don't find the second Overmind at all lazy, though. Since the Zerg are so heavily dependent on the few intelligent figures they have, it makes perfect sense to me that they would try to make a second overmind. Not that you don't have a point. It's a bit tiresome for us when Tassadar has just gloriously killed the Overmind, and then suddenly there's a new one. Still, it's a logical thing for the Zerg to do, given how singular minded they are, and generally lacking in creativity.
Just because the Zerg would want to make a second Overmind doesn't mean that the Zerg can make a second Overmind. As always, it's the author that actually calls the shot, and the second Overmind was not created because it had any intrinsic value, but simply because they needed a macguffin to allow the United Earth Directorate to control part of the Swarm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nissa
Call me unsophisticated, but I don't mind...sort of, the magical macguffins Uraj and Khalis. Well, I don't mind the temple itself.
No, you're entitled to enjoying whatever it is you wish to enjoy, I'm just pointing out that it's lazy and unimaginative storytelling, an obvious way to pad out the non-plot of The Stand. And they reused the same stupid concept for the Xel'Naga Artifacts in StarCraft II.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nissa
Um, the Zerg were never really a faction unto themselves. They were always a bunch of stupid, depraved animals bent to the will of the Overmind, and even then were manipulated by Mengsk's psi transmitters. Zerg are, by their nature, manipulatible.
The Overmind is the Zerg, so they were a faction unto themselves. The Psi Emitters (pre-Brood War, and that's another stupid thing I didn't mention) are just beacons, they don't compel the Zerg to do anything, they're just giant neon signs calling out "Psionic Humans Here!" and since the Overmind was looking for one of those, it would send the Zerg over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nissa
Edit: I looked at your long version, and I have a bit of an objection to your assessment of Aldaris. You call him religious, but the only really religious thing about him is his terminology. He's no more religious than Zeratul, and they both make statements like "by the gods". The conflict between the Protoss is about as religious as Ireland's -- they say it's Catholic vs Protestant, but it's really Irish vs. British.
Keep in mind that Protoss gods are probably very similar, as they possibly pre-date the Khala. The Khala, as more of a philosophy/life style, is not religious, and does not appear to replace any gods. Also, there's no reason for the Dark Templar not to have sacred ground. Why not? While you can call DT culture more individualistic, that doesn't mean everything they do, down to the last atom, is individualistic. And what's so individual about not having sacred ground? That has no relevance to ritual or nomadism.
While the definition of religion is unclear, I have rarely heard it be so limited as to only relate to deities. Buddhism is probably the best example of a (in most of its sects) godless religion, but it is not the only one. The Khala is definitely a subject of religious reverence among the Protoss, and while religious terminology permeates the Protoss culture, Aldaris is also religious in a spiritual sense - his and the Conclave's focus on Tassadar rather than the Zerg is about their prioritisation of threats: the Zerg can kill the Protoss and destroy their bodies, but Tassadar and the Dark Templar can destroy the unity and identity of the Protoss - their 'souls'. He also represents organised religion, unquestioned and unquestionable authority by divine mandate, defining orthodoxy and branding disagreements as heresy, that sort of thing.
