Xel'Naga - Universe Origins

I'm thinking of this part of the Ulaan prophecy:

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The Xel'Naga who forged the stars will transcend their creation...

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and that it might actually be literal. My theory is that the xel'naga, seeking to escape the heat death of their own universe, created their own universe in a lab, sort of like this: http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1...ses-in-the-lab

An important thing to note is that the big bang doesn't violate the conservation of energy, because the gravitational potential energy offsets the matter and energy in the known universe. So if the Xel'Naga could create a microuniverse and initiate inflation somehow, they could effectively use it to escape from their own universe before it was too late.

Alternatively, StarCraft takes place inside in a multiverse, and the xel'naga just traveled to the next parallel universe, which isn't so far-fetched given that we already have warp drives and wormhole transit.
http://bigthink.com/videos/escape-to...allel-universe

During the age of the universe, the Xel'Naga would have been continuing the cycle, evolving species and merging them over cosmic time. In the DT Saga Zamara says this about the cycle:

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What I can say is this; it is a cycle that is as natural to them as breathing is to you, Jacob, or as gathering nutrients is to us,
Zeratul. It has existed for so long and has shaped so much of the cosmos that it is, perhaps, as
natural and right a thing, universally, as life and death, the spin of planets, and the formation and
cessation of stars. I do not know that I can say it is wrong

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I mean, that's a pretty hefty and substantial claim right there. One of the few ways I can see to justify it is if some of what I posted in the above is true. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Meh, I don't like parallel universes in most sci fi. They get convoluted very easily. I'd prefer Starcraft without that kind of complication.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

Meh, I don't like parallel universes in most sci fi. They get convoluted very easily. I'd prefer Starcraft without that kind of complication.

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That's not what this is. "Parallel" in this context means the universe that's next to ours in the multiverse, not the same universe with some mild changes like in most campy sci-fi.

A little bit ago, I wanted to start getting up to date on Physics and Metaphysics. I read some books by Brian Greene, some books by Michio Kaku, and lots of articles about theories. Then, I decided to throw in some history channel documentaries which made an attempt to explain these exact same theories. The multiverse concept explained by actual physicists that Gradius is talking about, was drastically altered to become a multipart series about "What if the Dinosaurs never died out" or "What if Hitler won WW2?" The obvious impression they were trying to communicate was that other universes were exactly like ours (right down to having the same nations and individual people) but with some different decisions being made. Note, that this was not some branch chain theory or anyrhing else. This was specifically the same theories, mentioned by name, as the ones that Brian Greene was explaining.

In summation, History channel's gone to shit.

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and that it might actually be literal. My theory is that the xel'naga, seeking to escape the heat death of their own universe, created their own universe in a lab, sort of like this: http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1...ses-in-the-lab

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I hope something like this is the case. It would go a long way towards redeeming the series and getting the Xel'Naga as a concept back on track. Similiar concepts were what I had assumed the Xel'Naga story arch would have become before SC2. Of course, this almost surely means that that's not what Blizzard will be going for.

I'll reserve more in-depth discussion of these topics once I've completed my Physics/Metaphysics course that I'm going through right now. These areas of discussion are just about the only ones left in SC that would interest me.

(How did I miss this topic before now?)

If the concept of a multiverse/parallel universe exists in Starcraft, it would certainly explain a lot. That is, Sc2 is really a parallel universe to that of Sc1 and not an actual continuation/sequel of Sc1. :p

Jokes aside, if the Xel'Naga have the capacity to cross the multiverse and do whatever they want as the scientists without moral or ethical concerns they were originally conceived as, they'd probably have no reason to go back to the universe that Starcraft inhabits given the infinite number of universes they could go to.

Found more evidence for my theory. After Kerrigan leaves Skygeirr, she talks about Amon, who is "older than the universe".

If this all ends up being just hyperbole like I think it will, I will be pissed off. :P

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Jokes aside, if the Xel'Naga have the capacity to cross the multiverse and do whatever they want as the scientists without moral or ethical concerns they were originally conceived as, they'd probably have no reason to go back to the universe that Starcraft inhabits given the infinite number of universes they could go to.

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Why would they go back? They only need to show up once to conduct their experiment and prolong their lifespan to continue the cycle.

I remember when people used to say that the Xel'Naga should be a playable race. I don't even know how that kind of gameplay would balance.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

I remember when people used to say that the Xel'Naga should be a playable race. I don't even know how that kind of gameplay would balance.

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Well I had a great idea of how to merge Zerg and Protoss functionality using a race-wide merging mechanic like Templar into Archons. Since there's so few Xel'Naga, they'd instead use weak robotic base units (like a Probe), which would Voltron combine into all the stronger units they wanted. So they'd have the rapid mass production of weak units like the Zerg, and the uber strong expensive units of the Protoss as each would be a direct cost multiple of the base unit.

But of course no one ever listens to me.

I've always thought the Xel'Naga should be pretty much militarily incompetent. They were just obsessive intergalactic biologists.

I very much like the 'mad science' aspect of them just going around creating species far beyond the Xel'Naga's own capacities, until one of their creations destroys them.

Out of curiosity, how do you guys imagine the aesthetic of the Xel'Naga? I've always imagined their worldships as something like this: http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...nfection11.jpg

Except more massive. Something that exudes the vibe of the protoss purifier ship in the original SC intro cinematic.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

If this all ends up being just hyperbole like I think it will, I will be pissed off. :P

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Consider yourself forewarned.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Why would they go back? They only need to show up once to conduct their experiment and prolong their lifespan to continue the cycle.

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Exactly. They've done their bit by seeding that single universe with "purity of essence" and "purity of form". There's no need to go back and check since they can keep on seeding each and every universe that they can slip into. That's why if the Xel'Naga can cross the multiverse, then the Starcraft universe that we are viewing right now should not have any further involvement with the Xel'Naga because they would have moved on ages ago.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Out of curiosity, how do you guys imagine the aesthetic of the Xel'Naga? I've always imagined their worldships as something like this: http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...nfection11.jpg

Except more massive. Something that exudes the vibe of the protoss purifier ship in the original SC intro cinematic.

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Given that all Protoss designs are all supposedly ripped off of Xel'naga tech (ugh), I'd imagine their aesthetic would be similar.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Exactly. They've done their bit by seeding that single universe with "purity of essence" and "purity of form". There's no need to go back and check since they can keep on seeding each and every universe that they can slip into. That's why if the Xel'Naga can cross the multiverse, then the Starcraft universe that we are viewing right now should not have any further involvement with the Xel'Naga because they would have moved on ages ago.

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I'm lost. Why would they want to come back? Their goal is to create two species that will merge into one, and then they can leave to continue the cycle somewhere else.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Given that all Protoss designs are all supposedly ripped off of Xel'naga tech (ugh), I'd imagine their aesthetic would be similar.

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Well, Xel'Naga turrets and other doodads/architecture are pretty distinct from protoss architecture. I mean, here's a worldship: http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...WoL_Story1.jpg

And here's the rest of their doodads/architecture: http://www.sc2mapster.com/media/imag...ads_Part_7.jpg

But it's not really what I imagined before SC2. The design I'm ok with, but I was thinking of a bluish theme, instead of green.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

I'm lost. Why would they want to come back?

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They wouldn't comeback. That's what I said in the beginning. You were agreeing with me... as far as I can tell.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

They wouldn't comeback. That's what I said in the beginning. You were agreeing with me... as far as I can tell.

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It's not likely. The Zerg and Protoss should have the option to choose their own destiny, not something pre-ordained by the Xel'Naga simply for the sake to continue their own life cycle.

It's not like we've ever been told the consequences of what would happen if the cycle was permanently stopped.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

It's not likely. The Zerg and Protoss should have the option to choose their own destiny, not something pre-ordained by the Xel'Naga simply for the sake to continue their own life cycle.

It's not like we've ever been told the consequences of what would happen if the cycle was permanently stopped.

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Thing is, that's the entire point of drama with the Xel'Naga, and what their story should be about. Well, not the Protoss and Zerg being used to continue the Xel'Naga's life cycle, but rather them trying to accomplish their plans while the Protoss try and get out of it, and the humans caught in the middle. Amon and his crap is just a distraction from the real area where all us players want to know more.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

Thing is, that's the entire point of drama with the Xel'Naga, and what their story should be about. Well, not the Protoss and Zerg being used to continue the Xel'Naga's life cycle, but rather them trying to accomplish their plans while the Protoss try and get out of it, and the humans caught in the middle. Amon and his crap is just a distraction from the real area where all us players want to know more.

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I for one still believe it's all a matter of free will. You have to remember that this was already touched upon in Protoss history, when Khas founded the Khala. His philosophy was that the Protoss didn't need the Xel'Naga, and only needed each other.

Now yes, the Dark Templar refused to embrace the Khala, and yes they did do plenty of research in the Xel'Naga to find out their purpose, but I'm sure there are those even amongst them who believe the Xel'Naga are not ESSENTIAL for their survival.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Out of curiosity, how do you guys imagine the aesthetic of the Xel'Naga?

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Given their role as biologists and their ships' being described as 'worldships', I always imagined them as giant glass spheres each containing a unique biome, connected to a central spacefaring machinery, like a massive intergalactic orrery.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

I for one still believe it's all a matter of free will. You have to remember that this was already touched upon in Protoss history, when Khas founded the Khala. His philosophy was that the Protoss didn't need the Xel'Naga, and only needed each other.

Now yes, the Dark Templar refused to embrace the Khala, and yes they did do plenty of research in the Xel'Naga to find out their purpose, but I'm sure there are those even amongst them who believe the Xel'Naga are not ESSENTIAL for their survival.

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No, I meant on like a literary perspective, the conflict between the Xel'Nagan philosophies (naturally, how they intended to merge the Zerg and Protoss) should have been the main focus of their part of the plot.

That, and I could have sworn that the Khala came from the Xel'Naga, in one way or another.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

That, and I could have sworn that the Khala came from the Xel'Naga, in one way or another.

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I want to hear your theory on that then...

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

I want to hear your theory on that then...

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Well, I remember reading somewhere, I'm pretty sure it's the manual, that Khas found his stuff in old records of the Xel'Naga. Like it was lost philosophies from their originators that would make life make sense.

As for my Xel'Nagan theories...it's more like headcanon. I have this story in my head about a bunch of ancient scientists who are influenced by Duran -- who is really some equivalent being of immense power -- to create the perfect race. They start in on the Protoss, and one among them, who I call Cassandra, really loves the Protoss and spends a lot of time designing and influencing them, as well as creating the Khala. However, when the Protoss turn out to be failures (In everyone's mind but Duran's), Cassandra is the scapegoat, and she is forced into one of their temples to be destroyed. Think of it like the temple on Shakuras. However, instead of being destroyed, she was warped to a far off city she built to provide a shelter for the Protoss should they ever be in dire need. She remains there to this day, aging but very slowly, and also losing her mind from being alone.

Duran then manipulates the Xel'Naga into creating the Zerg, but then engineering the Zerg to destroy his would be allies. He wants to create the perfect race, which merges the Zerg and Protoss. The hybrids are not there to destroy the universe, but to make it more beautiful. Animals trust them, and plants grow where they would not under the hybrids' influence. However, the hybrids expect total submission from their inferiors (anyone who is not them), leaving the humans, 'Toss, and Zerg to stop them from turning the universe into their paradise.

Well, that's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

Well, I remember reading somewhere, I'm pretty sure it's the manual, that Khas found his stuff in old records of the Xel'Naga. Like it was lost philosophies from their originators that would make life make sense.

As for my Xel'Nagan theories...it's more like headcanon. I have this story in my head about a bunch of ancient scientists who are influenced by Duran -- who is really some equivalent being of immense power -- to create the perfect race. They start in on the Protoss, and one among them, who I call Cassandra, really loves the Protoss and spends a lot of time designing and influencing them, as well as creating the Khala. However, when the Protoss turn out to be failures (In everyone's mind but Duran's), Cassandra is the scapegoat, and she is forced into one of their temples to be destroyed. Think of it like the temple on Shakuras. However, instead of being destroyed, she was warped to a far off city she built to provide a shelter for the Protoss should they ever be in dire need. She remains there to this day, aging but very slowly, and also losing her mind from being alone.

Duran then manipulates the Xel'Naga into creating the Zerg, but then engineering the Zerg to destroy his would be allies. He wants to create the perfect race, which merges the Zerg and Protoss. The hybrids are not there to destroy the universe, but to make it more beautiful. Animals trust them, and plants grow where they would not under the hybrids' influence. However, the hybrids expect total submission from their inferiors (anyone who is not them), leaving the humans, 'Toss, and Zerg to stop them from turning the universe into their paradise.

Well, that's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

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The main problem is that the Xel'Naga life cycle gambles too much to chance. In the DT Saga Twilight, Zamara explained that it would take the two Xel'Naga creations millennia just to find each other (if left on their natural) course.

And even then there's no guarantee it'd work. That's probably why the Xel'Naga ensured the Overmind had no free will, in the event it refused the merging process.

Well, Ragnorak, we can always attribute that to Amon's doing. Maybe Duran was once a Xel'Naga servant who was meant to subtly guide the Protoss and Zerg together, but he became corrupted by Amon.

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Well, Ragnorak, we can always attribute that to Amon's doing. Maybe Duran was once a Xel'Naga servant who was meant to subtly guide the Protoss and Zerg together, but he became corrupted by Amon.

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

Well, Ragnorak, we can always attribute that to Amon's doing. Maybe Duran was once a Xel'Naga servant who was meant to subtly guide the Protoss and Zerg together, but he became corrupted by Amon.

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Well, Ragnorak, we can always attribute that to Amon's doing. Maybe Duran was once a Xel'Naga servant who was meant to subtly guide the Protoss and Zerg together, but he became corrupted by Amon.

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You spelled my SN wrong.

Anyways that's another frustration about him. We don't even know WHERE he came from. A villain cannot pop out of nowhere and for no reason, you know.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

The main problem is that the Xel'Naga life cycle gambles too much to chance. In the DT Saga Twilight, Zamara explained that it would take the two Xel'Naga creations millennia just to find each other (if left on their natural) course.

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Longer than that Ragnorak. It's supposed to take place over evolutionary time scales IIRC. Millions of years.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Longer than that Ragnorak. It's supposed to take place over evolutionary time scales IIRC. Millions of years.

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All right, I'll take a look at that book again.

But the point is, how are the Xel'Naga even sure that the two species will REALLY merge as they hoped? Or has the gamble simply "lucked out" all the previous times in the past?

I'm surprised the Xel'Naga still even exist after all this time if they take this long and have so much trouble just to have sex.

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I'm surprised the Xel'Naga still even exist after all this time if they take this long and have so much trouble just to have sex.

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Dating must be a real bitch of a conundrum in their society.

So I wonder if the Hybrid are a combination then of Protoss Essence and Zerg Form? The exact reverse of what they were aiming for. What might that mean, exactly? Zerg form is mutable (represented by the variety of Hybrid types?), and Protoss essence has been marred, but was communal in nature...

I'm very against the idea of the Xel'Naga using the Protoss and Zerg as a part of their reproduction cycle. For one thing, ew. For another, they made the P/Z by mutating species on planets, and those original species have different DNA from them, meaning if they need other species to reproduce, no generation is going to be like another. Unless the Xel'Naga have the power to make a species exactly like themselves, in which case it seems odd they need another species to reproduce at all.

Of course, if the Xel'Naga themselves are sort of Zerg-like, in that they bring other species into the fold, that's pretty interesting. It's like they take the best of every race and make them into their image. Huh.

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I'm very against the idea of the Xel'Naga using the Protoss and Zerg as a part of their reproduction cycle. For one thing, ew. For another, they made the P/Z by mutating species on planets, and those original species have different DNA from them, meaning if they need other species to reproduce, no generation is going to be like another. Unless the Xel'Naga have the power to make a species exactly like themselves, in which case it seems odd they need another species to reproduce at all.

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And yet both species have a means of incorporating the other. They Zerg innately absorb the genetic material of alien craetures to bolster their own ability; and Protoss can merge with Archon Warp, an ability that may extend to other psychic creatures.

In other words, Space Magic! :D

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Originally Posted by Nissa

I'm very against the idea of the Xel'Naga using the Protoss and Zerg as a part of their reproduction cycle. For one thing, ew. For another, they made the P/Z by mutating species on planets, and those original species have different DNA from them, meaning if they need other species to reproduce, no generation is going to be like another. Unless the Xel'Naga have the power to make a species exactly like themselves, in which case it seems odd they need another species to reproduce at all.

Of course, if the Xel'Naga themselves are sort of Zerg-like, in that they bring other species into the fold, that's pretty interesting. It's like they take the best of every race and make them into their image. Huh.

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But you DON'T KNOW if the Xel'Naga are Zerg like. Remember, Zurvan said it himself that Amon desired the Zerg strength to steal essence. This seems to imply that the Xel'Naga themselves did not have this power. Or at the very least, did not have this power on such a magnitude.

Well no, clearly I was speculating on that point. :D To be honest, I think it would be a more interesting direction than "Amon did it all."

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

So I wonder if the Hybrid are a combination then of Protoss Essence and Zerg Form? The exact reverse of what they were aiming for. What might that mean, exactly? Zerg form is mutable (represented by the variety of Hybrid types?), and Protoss essence has been marred, but was communal in nature...

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That's a fairly interesting notion to ponder and it makes a heck of a lot of sense. I wouldn't be surprised if its revealed that this is how we should interpret the Hybrids - as some combination of the "impure" aspects of each of those races.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

Well no, clearly I was speculating on that point. :D To be honest, I think it would be a more interesting direction than "Amon did it all."

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That would be complete and utter BS. I don't like villains with this oracle ability of "Everything is as I have intended" concept.

NO ONE can plan everything that perfectly. Even Duran's actions had gambled matters to chance, despite manipulating other people.

Besides, we don't know enough about Amon to speculate just WHAT he was planning.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

That would be complete and utter BS. I don't like villains with this oracle ability of "Everything is as I have intended" concept.

NO ONE can plan everything that perfectly. Even Duran's actions had gambled matters to chance, despite manipulating other people.

Besides, we don't know enough about Amon to speculate just WHAT he was planning.

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Dude, I was just doing some random speculation, not saying what I actually thought Blizzard had in mind. It's just my own little fantasy story, that's all. Besides, Duran seems like a guy who has been manipulating people for a long time, and more than likely has true allies of some sort.

Also, that was sort of my point about Amon. We don't know anything about him, and therefore he's boring. Even mysterious characters need to give hints of who they are so that the player is interested. That's the principle reason why I hated them killing off Mengsk. Mengsk is someone the player has known since the beginning of Starcraft, and have loved to hate since then. Amon? Some mystical, magical thing that apparently, by the order of the almighty retcon, has been manipulating everything from the beginning.

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Originally Posted by Nissa

Dude, I was just doing some random speculation, not saying what I actually thought Blizzard had in mind. It's just my own little fantasy story, that's all. Besides, Duran seems like a guy who has been manipulating people for a long time, and more than likely has true allies of some sort.

Also, that was sort of my point about Amon. We don't know anything about him, and therefore he's boring. Even mysterious characters need to give hints of who they are so that the player is interested. That's the principle reason why I hated them killing off Mengsk. Mengsk is someone the player has known since the beginning of Starcraft, and have loved to hate since then. Amon? Some mystical, magical thing that apparently, by the order of the almighty retcon, has been manipulating everything from the beginning.

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You're not the only one with such fantasy stories. That's why I wrote a fanfic of my own for post WoL on the ff.net site, you can check it out if you like.

And for your point of Amon, I know what you mean. Blizzard said Mengsk's story was done by the time of WoL's release, but he got plenty of features, including the I, Mengsk book and everything.

In order for this to work for Amon, he has to actually SURVIVE LotV, be the main villain in SC3 for all 3 factions, and be the main character of at least 2 or 3 SC books for post LotV. THEN maybe I'll see it in a different way.

Right now, I'm not convinced one bit that Blizzard can make him interesting with just LotV alone.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

In order for this to work for Amon, he has to actually SURVIVE LotV, be the main villain in SC3 for all 3 factions, and be the main character of at least 2 or 3 SC books for post LotV. THEN maybe I'll see it in a different way.

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This would essentially make the entirety of Sc2's story a complete waste of time. It's already quite incoherent and unfocussed and now you want it top it off with it being unfinished as well? I guess just one more kick in the guts won't hurt too much. :p

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

Right now, I'm not convinced one bit that Blizzard can make him interesting with just LotV alone.

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I don't think they ever will. First impressions count for a lot I'm afraid and Amon's one just makes him a terrible character right off the bat.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

This would essentially make the entirety of Sc2's story a complete waste of time. It's already quite incoherent and unfocussed and now you want it top it off with it being unfinished as well? I guess just one more kick in the guts won't hurt too much. :p

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No, a waste of time is if LotV's ending is Amon won, and Blizzard tells the fans that all the actions to prevent armageddon was "just us messing with your head." Besides, with Brood War people wanted Mengsk to finally die, and they didn't kill him off.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I don't think they ever will. First impressions count for a lot I'm afraid and Amon's one just makes him a terrible character right off the bat.

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Of course not, and we already got the first impression with Amon from the "In Utter Darkness" mission of WoL. It certainly wasn't the one people wanted...

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

No, a waste of time is if LotV's ending is Amon won, and Blizzard tells the fans that all the actions to prevent armageddon was "just us messing with your head."

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Kerrigan and Artanis will enter a chamber that amplifies their powers, and they'll focus their energies on Amon. Upon getting vanquished, Amon will release Xel'naga energies that purify all zerg/Protoss DNA on the planet the battle is taking place. Artanis dies, and Kerrigan's now completely severed from the zerg and now completely human again. Zerg leadership? Niadra, and her inability to override her directive of killing Protoss is what drives this new zerg. Prologue to Starcraft 3 is that the UED returns, and Raynor and Kerrigan fight to keep the Koprulu safe from their tyranny, one planet at a time.

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This premise is probably better than what we're going to end up getting.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

No, a waste of time is if LotV's ending is Amon won, and Blizzard tells the fans that all the actions to prevent armageddon was "just us messing with your head."

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That's no different or better than him surviving Sc2 to plague the TZP again in Sc3 really. If he just gets defeated only to be then be a proper big bad in Sc3 only to be defeated again, this then makes the whole of Sc2 just worthless filler. If you have him lose in Sc2 and then win in Sc3, Sc2 becomes pointless filler just the same because everything was "undone" previously. If he wins a minor victory at the end of Sc2 to setup his eventual win/loss in Sc3 (probably the most likely scenario if they wanted to keep Amon around), everyone will still feel Sc2 was a waste of time because they've waited 15+ years for what was really just an over-extended teaser for Sc3 that no-one will probably care about anyway. Every way you cut it, Amon is a terrible character to keep moving forward with.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

Of course not, we already got the first impression with Amon from the "In Utter Darkness" mission of WoL. It certainly wasn't the one people wanted...

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:confused: that's what I said. What other first "impression of Amon" did you think I was referring to?

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

:confused: that's what I said. What other first "impression of Amon" did you think I was referring to?

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Well for obvious reasons, Blizzard COULD just argue to you that the Overmind's vision isn't concrete, so therefore what you saw of Amon in there doesn't count.

Personally, I wouldn't buy that argument, but that doesn't mean Blizzard wouldn't use it regardless.