Re: SCII Legacy of the Void
Kerrigan was visibly shocked when Raynor came to help her; I honestly don't think she thought he would help her. If anything, her decision to finally do the right thing was the realization that her quest for revenge had ultimately destroyed any chance of having a normal life and happiness; she was also forced to realize just how selfish and myopic it was (when she's justifying herself to Lassara she's confident and sure of herself; when she's with Jim, she's stammering and trying to convince herself just as much). As such, when Raynor's coldness reminded her, she finally decided to do the right thing for once, showing that she had finally grown as a person.
She could easily have said "sorry I don't care about civilians" and just plowed through the rest of the city (sort of like how she slaughtered the civilians on Kaldir because it would save time). But she didn't. She had no reason to try and please Raynor since she thought she had lost him forever. Instead, she chose to do the morally correct, but somewhat more difficult decision to try and limit civilian casualties even though she wouldn't have really benefited. Again, that's a pretty sharp contrast compared to her actions on Kaldir, when she slaughtered the colonists simply because it was expedient. It's what ultimately separates her from the Queen of Blades. When the Queen of Blades was called out on her actions and realized what she had become she didn't care. Kerrigan ultimately did recognize what she had done, and ultimately was willing to change her behavior at the end.
I still think Amon should have been fleshed out more, and can even think of a way to both include him, and further more develop both him and Kerrigan (maybe a brief conversation between him and Kerrigan after Narud's death. i.e. He telepathically contacts her, tries to demoralize her both by boasting about how powerful he is and when Kerrigan says something like "you turned me into a monster" Amon can rather brutally point out that she seems to be doing a fine job hurting people without his influence; if anything she's even worse and that they aren't really that different (both are willing to do whatever it takes to achieve their goals, but while Amon is trying to create a more "perfect universe" Kerrigan just want's revenge, so if anything she's worse). After this rather brutal hannibal lecture Kerrigan lashes out in fury, but Amon leaves taunting her that "he'll see her at the end of the universe." At which point Kerrigan wakes up.) It would up his badass cred (demoralizing Kerrigan and basically deconstructing her entire motivation simply because he's actually telling the truth), and also give Kerrigan a more pronounced "My god moment". Kerrigan could be forced to realize that Amon's actually being completely honest. By embracing her lust for revenge at all costs, she's essentially as monstrous as the Queen of Blades was, which in turn finally forces her to change for the better combined with Raynor's calling her out.
Amon tells her it's pointless, and that her survival changes nothing, Kerrigan makes clear that she isn't afraid of him, and Amon tells her that the day of reckoning will fall upon you, heck maybe even have him give a little insight into his plans or motivations (he could honestly think that he's creating a more "perfect" universe, and that under his divine guidance his "children will populate the galaxy and make it perfect)
- - - Updated - - -
Kerrigan was visibly shocked when Raynor came to help her; I honestly don't think she thought he would help her. If anything, her decision to finally do the right thing was the realization that her quest for revenge had ultimately destroyed any chance of having a normal life and happiness; she was also forced to realize just how selfish and myopic it was (when she's justifying herself to Lassara she's confident and sure of herself; when she's with Jim, she's stammering and trying to convince herself just as much). As such, when Raynor's coldness reminded her, she finally decided to do the right thing for once, showing that she had finally grown as a person.
She could easily have said "sorry I don't care about civilians" and just plowed through the rest of the city (sort of like how she slaughtered the civilians on Kaldir because it would save time). But she didn't. She had no reason to try and please Raynor since she thought she had lost him forever. Instead, she chose to do the morally correct, but somewhat more difficult decision to try and limit civilian casualties even though she wouldn't have really benefited. Again, that's a pretty sharp contrast compared to her actions on Kaldir, when she slaughtered the colonists simply because it was expedient. It's what ultimately separates her from the Queen of Blades. When the Queen of Blades was called out on her actions and realized what she had become she didn't care. Kerrigan ultimately did recognize what she had done, and ultimately was willing to change her behavior at the end.
I still think Amon should have been fleshed out more, and can even think of a way to both include him, and further more develop both him and Kerrigan (maybe a brief conversation between him and Kerrigan after Narud's death. i.e. He telepathically contacts her, tries to demoralize her both by boasting about how powerful he is and when Kerrigan says something like "you turned me into a monster" Amon can rather brutally point out that she seems to be doing a fine job hurting people without his influence; if anything she's even worse and that they aren't really that different (both are willing to do whatever it takes to achieve their goals, but while Amon is trying to create a more "perfect universe" Kerrigan just want's revenge, so if anything she's worse). After this rather brutal hannibal lecture Kerrigan lashes out in fury, but Amon leaves taunting her that "he'll see her at the end of the universe." At which point Kerrigan wakes up.) It would up his badass cred (demoralizing Kerrigan and basically deconstructing her entire motivation simply because he's actually telling the truth), and also give Kerrigan a more pronounced "My god moment". Kerrigan could be forced to realize that Amon's actually being completely honest. By embracing her lust for revenge at all costs, she's essentially as monstrous as the Queen of Blades was, which in turn finally forces her to change for the better combined with Raynor's calling her out.
Amon tells her it's pointless, and that her survival changes nothing, Kerrigan makes clear that she isn't afraid of him, and Amon tells her that the day of reckoning will fall upon you, heck maybe even have him give a little insight into his plans or motivations (he could honestly think that he's creating a more "perfect" universe, and that under his divine guidance his "children will populate the galaxy and make it perfect)
Re: SCII Legacy of the Void
^ Rag has a slightly different interpretation of why Kerrigan saved those colonists (ie: she's not as pure-hearted as you think). Anyways, the rest seems to be more like a "what HotS should've been" in regards to Amon rather than "what LoTV is going to be".
The lack of Amon development is very good point. Given that Kerrigan is supposed to be the linchpin behind stopping Amon's plan, to not have any sort of interaction with Amon in her very own installment is somewhat mind-boggling. Isn't this trilogy supposed to be about some Xel'Naga thing again?
What's more, if LotV follows the trend of HotS - in that it pretty much disregards and turns the previous main character into a minor secondary character (Raynor didn't do much beyond being handed the distress ball/acting as the damsel in distress plot device that triggers Kerrigan's revenge story and last minute redemption near the end) - then it's most likely that Kerrigan will be shafted for the majority of LotV only to serve as a mechanical plot solution near the end where she kills Amon.
Re: SCII Legacy of the Void
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
^ Rag has a slightly different interpretation of why Kerrigan saved those colonists (ie: she's not as pure-hearted as you think). Anyways, the rest seems to be more like a "what HotS should've been" in regards to Amon rather than "what LoTV is going to be".
The lack of Amon development is very good point. Given that Kerrigan is supposed to be the linchpin behind stopping Amon's plan, to not have any sort of interaction with Amon in her very own installment is somewhat mind-boggling. Isn't this trilogy supposed to be about some Xel'Naga thing again?
What's more, if LotV follows the trend of HotS - in that it pretty much disregards and turns the previous main character into a minor secondary character (Raynor didn't do much beyond being handed the distress ball/acting as the damsel in distress plot device that triggers Kerrigan's revenge story and last minute redemption near the end) - then it's most likely that Kerrigan will be shafted for the majority of LotV only to serve as a mechanical plot solution near the end where she kills Amon.
I was talking about Korhal. My point was that there was no obvious benefit to her doing the right thing (she's visibly surprised when Raynor comes to help so she had no reason to try and please him), yet she did it anyway. Even if Raynor was in the room it certainly wasn't to please him. I honestly felt that it was basically forcing her to realize that she was acting out of base and petty reasons and that she had become a monster in the process, which forced her to reevaluate herself. When Mengsk tells her Raynor is still alive he says "He went through hell to save you and you threw it away. He must hate your guts" and kerrigan is visibly effected by the jab, and as pointed out earlier, when she's trying to justify herself to raynor she sounds more desperate, like she's trying to convince herself. Her slaughter of the colonists was an immoral act (I never claimed otherwise). I can understand why she did it but it's apparently supposed to be a sign of her being so consumed with revenge she will do whatever it takes to achieve it. I can see Amon deliver the breaking lecture because he wants her dead, and feel that the way I suggested would be effective. He would basically being completely honest, and as such Kerrigan can't really counter it. It would backfire and force Kerrigan to finally face her flaws, but at the same time it wouldn't be a bad strategy.
Kerrigan was clearly surprised when Raynor came, so even if she was doing it on the off chance that it would persuade him, she sure as fuck would not have guessed he'd come. She would have been putting her entire revenge at potential risk just on a chance.
Re: SCII Legacy of the Void
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
^ Rag has a slightly different interpretation of why Kerrigan saved those colonists (ie: she's not as pure-hearted as you think). Anyways, the rest seems to be more like a "what HotS should've been" in regards to Amon rather than "what LoTV is going to be".
The lack of Amon development is very good point. Given that Kerrigan is supposed to be the linchpin behind stopping Amon's plan, to not have any sort of interaction with Amon in her very own installment is somewhat mind-boggling. Isn't this trilogy supposed to be about some Xel'Naga thing again?
What's more, if LotV follows the trend of HotS - in that it pretty much disregards and turns the previous main character into a minor secondary character (Raynor didn't do much beyond being handed the distress ball/acting as the damsel in distress plot device that triggers Kerrigan's revenge story and last minute redemption near the end) - then it's most likely that Kerrigan will be shafted for the majority of LotV only to serve as a mechanical plot solution near the end where she kills Amon.
This is what bothers me. There's way to little being revealed about Amon, my hope is more will be in the books to bridge HotS and LotV or something like that.
So far it seems all Kerrigan's role is in the prophecy is simply to keep Amon from controlling the swarm, but as Narud told Kerrigan, Amon doesn't exactly NEED the swarm in order to have his plans pass.
That being said, it makes me wonder: did Zeratul actually know that Amon had been revived by HotS? Him being in the shadows makes it hard to know what's going on there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DarthYam
I was talking about Korhal. My point was that there was no obvious benefit to her doing the right thing (she's visibly surprised when Raynor comes to help so she had no reason to try and please him), yet she did it anyway. Even if Raynor was in the room it certainly wasn't to please him. I honestly felt that it was basically forcing her to realize that she was acting out of base and petty reasons and that she had become a monster in the process, which forced her to reevaluate herself. When Mengsk tells her Raynor is still alive he says "He went through hell to save you and you threw it away. He must hate your guts" and kerrigan is visibly effected by the jab, and as pointed out earlier, when she's trying to justify herself to raynor she sounds more desperate, like she's trying to convince herself. Her slaughter of the colonists was an immoral act (I never claimed otherwise). I can understand why she did it but it's apparently supposed to be a sign of her being so consumed with revenge she will do whatever it takes to achieve it. I can see Amon deliver the breaking lecture because he wants her dead, and feel that the way I suggested would be effective. He would basically being completely honest, and as such Kerrigan can't really counter it. It would backfire and force Kerrigan to finally face her flaws, but at the same time it wouldn't be a bad strategy.
Kerrigan was clearly surprised when Raynor came, so even if she was doing it on the off chance that it would persuade him, she sure as fuck would not have guessed he'd come. She would have been putting her entire revenge at potential risk just on a chance.
Nice to see you here DarthYam. You were one of the first to notice my Aftermath and Revalations fic on ff.net, I'm glad you did.
With regards to what happened on Korhal, I think you're missing a little in reading between the lines:
The one thing Kerrigan knew Mengsk WOULD be right about was that the moment she met up with Raynor again, she'd have to face a VERY cold reception from him for what she did.
And the reality is that no matter how much she tried to prepare for it, she couldn't. And upon Raynor's anger at her, Kerrigan realized she hasn't changed at all. Or if she has, the change is so small that it's negligible.
Only after the "Believe in Me" cutscene did Kerrigan finally see that she has to put a limit to all this, otherwise she would be telling everyone that she was willing to kill ALL of humanity just to get to Mengsk.
All you have to do is look at the Korhal invasion cutscene. When she contacted Valerian, she told him that once the invasion was over, the people will need a leader. Valerian agreed to be that leader, and then asked Kerrigan to land the swarm outside the city so they'd have time for evacuation.
But if you think about the timing of the convo, that meant Kerrigan endorsed Valerian as the leader of his people BEFORE he even asked her to land the swarm outside the city. The character of that message means that at that point in time, Kerrigan was admitting that the Korhal invasion would be the last bloodshed. She'll do what's necessary to kill Mengsk, but not to the point of total genocide (if she wanted that, she wouldn't have even bothered asking Valerian to lead the people).
So, in that sense the "Believe in Me" cutscene runs a lot deeper than you think.
As for the final HotS mission, this was still in effect. The reason Kerrigan gave in to Valerian's request to avoid civilian centers was NOT the hope that Raynor was watching or anything like that. She did it because as she told him on the Moros, he was the only one who believed in her, who saw there was MORE to her than just a monster and mass murderer.
However, during all these years, she has NEVER shown him that. And so, for that reason, Kerrigan felt that even if Raynor no longer believed in her, she had to honor the faith he put in during all those years. If she does not, then it all his sacrifices WOULD have been for nothing.
Re: SCII Legacy of the Void
My interpretation of the Believe in Me cinematic is a lot simpler: Raynor is pissed off that she willingly turned herself into a monster again and is using zerg to kill people. Imagine how pissed off he would be if he knew about all the planets she's been destroying in the meantime. :P
Of course, any "meaning" that you can attach to the cinematic is quickly nullified when he forgives her the next mission and returns to his terrorist way by helping her attack humans in the siege of Korhal. All topped off with: "Always been a pleasure darlin'"
Re: SCII Legacy of the Void
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
My interpretation of the Believe in Me cinematic is a lot simpler: Raynor is pissed off that she willingly turned herself into a monster again and is using zerg to kill people. Imagine how pissed off he would be if he knew about all the planets she's been destroying in the meantime. :P
Of course, any "meaning" that you can attach to the cinematic is quickly nullified when he forgives her the next mission and returns to his terrorist way by helping her attack humans in the siege of Korhal. All topped off with: "Always been a pleasure darlin'"
Well yeah, and he felt betrayed because this time she did this for herself. Naturally of course, Kerrigan kind of knew all along Raynor wasn't going to listen to her, and her CERTAINLY wasn't going to accept a reason that she did it only to save him.
It's not the next mission. I admit Raynor was a little TOO hasty in trusting her when she spared the civilian centers, but I believe a part of that also had something to do with his personal reasons in getting revenge on Mengsk.
Re: SCII Legacy of the Void
I'll agree it could have been better, but I feel that at least part of it was that Kerrigan did ultimately improve. She had no reason to try and spare the civilian centers (she thought she had lost Jim forever) and as such the fact that she was ultimately willing to do the morally difficult but correct decision was a sign that she had indeed listened and had (at least somewhat) cleaned up her act. As said earlier, that is different from Kaldir, when she killed the colonists because it was expedient. Raynor didn't terrorize anyone; he attacked military targets, and at the very end Kerrigan leaves without violence. All in all, it was actually pretty surgical and non terroristic
Re: SCII Legacy of the Void
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DarthYam
I'll agree it could have been better, but I feel that at least part of it was that Kerrigan did ultimately improve. She had no reason to try and spare the civilian centers (she thought she had lost Jim forever) and as such the fact that she was ultimately willing to do the morally difficult but correct decision was a sign that she had indeed listened and had (at least somewhat) cleaned up her act. As said earlier, that is different from Kaldir, when she killed the colonists because it was expedient. Raynor didn't terrorize anyone; he attacked military targets, and at the very end Kerrigan leaves without violence. All in all, it was actually pretty surgical and non terroristic
It's not that, DarthYam. Kerrigan's mentality of the Dominion is no different than Raynor's view of them in WoL.
I tend to use WWII examples to try to explain things like this.
Up until spring 1945, most US troops didn't really hate German troops because they saw them as civilized human beings. But as they advanced into Germany and the death and concentration camps were discovered, it changed the attitudes of their heads dramatically. From that point on, US troops felt there were no Germans in Germany: every single one of them is just like Hitler.
In a similar way, this was kind of the same with what was happening with Raynor and Kerrigan after fighting Mengsk for so long. In fact, Kerrigan had it easier than Raynor because for the 4 years after the BW, she was mostly just gathering the Zerg on Char for the bigger battle. Raynor, on the other hand, was constantly dealing with the Dominion because he was trying to bring Mengsk to justice.
After fighting the Dominion military for so long, and seeing their brutal treatment towards the fringe world civilians (many of them who were very unhappy with the Dominion anyway), along with the sheer hostility of the Dominion troops, Raynor's opinion eventually changed to the point where he felt the Dominion troops were just like Mengsk.
It was only during the Char invasion when he actually fought alongside them that this began to change, and Raynor began to see them as human beings, not just Mengsk's puppets.
However, in Flashpoint and HotS, this attitude quickly changed back as he was once again hunted down ruthlessly by Mengsk and everything, especially after being locked up on the Moros.
For Kerrigan it was no different. Remember, at the beginning of the Flashpoint book, she didn't seek revenge against Mengsk. It was only after being constantly hunted by him that caused her to change her mind. But unlike Raynor, she had been used most of her life, and therefore she felt other than him, humanity was almost just like Mengsk, hence why she only gave slight regrets when it came to destroying the Dominion industrial worlds to prepare for the Korhal invasion.
Hell, in that regard, Kerrigan showed more regret to the Protoss colonists on Kaldir than to the Dominion civilians.
Re: SCII Legacy of the Void
Screw the whole Raynor forgiving Kerrigan bullcr@p, how do you think his crew felt about this when the Raynor is suddenly telling everyone that they will fight alongside the Zerg? Seems kinda off that everyone would just go along with Raynor and fight alongside a bunch of savage beasts.
Re: SCII Legacy of the Void
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RetlocLive
Screw the whole Raynor forgiving Kerrigan bullcr@p, how do you think his crew felt about this when the Raynor is suddenly telling everyone that they will fight alongside the Zerg? Seems kinda off that everyone would just go along with Raynor and fight alongside a bunch of savage beasts.
Oh it wasn't about that, Retlo. It was about getting their justice on Mengsk.
You're right in that without that shared common enemy, they probably wouldn't have listened. It's the same concept with when Kerrigan contacted the Raiders earlier. They only listened to her because it was about rescuing Raynor.
You may not want a happy ending for them, but some of us still hope for a happier closure.
