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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I'm challenging Ein's assertion that Amon's whole plan with the Overmind was that it wanted the Overmind to die. The above is a possible "out" but just like all of our own fanon reasons, any "real" explanations given by Blizz for their retcons (if at all) will not sound any less like an evasion or reinterpretation of past things.
Yeah this is the problem, they tend to forget the lore. Plus if we raise this Q at a Q and A panel, I'm sure their response would be utter crap.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
They worked fine taking over Shakuras even when the Zerg there were supposed to be feral and that the 2nd Overmind was nowhere near at the height of the original.
*facepalm* I didn't mean the Cerebrates would die INSTANTLY if the Overmind is killed.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
That's a convenient excuse given that void energy is perhaps older and has probably existed even prior to the Protoss only for it to be tapped by the Nerazim later when they were denied any other source. Amon could've summoned this void energy then to kill it because the Overmind has some void energy within it, too (it's the explanation the Overmind gives as the reason why the Dark Templar are able to harm it in Sc1). This is the problem you get when you have all powerful, ancient and extremely knowledgeable villains that are even more powerful, ancient and extremely knowledgeable (Amon) than the previous one (Overmind). He has to have a convenient gap in his knowledge which is so basic and something that they should be expected to know and then expect the audience to swallow it as being "realistic" for that universe.
Of course the Void is older. The Xel'Naga knew of the Void before they even visited Aiur. Now yes, you can say technically the Protoss existed BEFORE the Xel'Naga arrived, but even so we don't know when the first Protoss was born on Aiur and all that, so it's harder to figure out.
As for the villains who are too powerful with this memory gap, that's always the excuse if the time span is trillions of years or something, the developers always use the "over the period of this time" to be vague, so we can't hold them responsible.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Careful about that hindsight bias. I'm talking from the perspective and knowledge we obtain in Sc1 only. That so-called plot hole of the "Overmind leaving Kerrigan on Char to attack Aiur and then die was a stupid move" is not really a plot-hole at all. It is doubtful Kerrigan would have done much anyway to help the Overmind on Aiur since a) it was already winning on Aiur and b) she failed in her own task of eliminating the Dark Templar. Lastly, that position of "the Overmind being dumb to go to Aiur alone" is an opinion based from hindsight bias because if the Overmind hadn't died (ie: as in Kerrigan doing her job on Char properly), it would've been labelled as a tactical genius. Go figure...
Either that or since the Overmind felt Kerrigan did a reasonable job, although not successful, it just let her decide for herself how to deal with the Dark Templar and all.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
This would imply he's conveniently blind of the prophecy? How come the comparatively "lowly" Overmind was able to see Amon's weakness (which Amon itself reveals in that vision) and Amon could not? Oh, that's right the vision's fake. Or is it? Some people think it's real and that the information it gives is gospel. And that wishy-washy nonsensical directive thing - hasn't Amon read those rules to being an effective evil overlord? I guess that if Amon was so sloppy there, then he's bound to fail on any bigger venture. Jeez, what a mess....
The prophecy didn't exist the moment he corrupted the Overmind. For all we know, the prophecy didn't exist even after the killing of the other Xel'Naga.
It's possible that maybe Amon THOUGHT he killed the other Xel'Naga with the corrupted Zerg, but in reality didn't, and some of the remaining Xel'Naga were able to escape. As a result, some of those who had escaped went to Ulaan to carve out the prophecy on the Xel'Naga shrines, but Amon never knew of it.
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
Alright, here are the questions that we need to solve before any of this will ever make sense.
One - What the Hell is Psi and Void. It seems to be the same thing, just different polarities. Void is Psionics, Psi is ... well, also Psionics. Is that it? Isn't there anymore information? We know Psi is of the natural Universe, what ever it is. The Zerg innately had Psi, though it seemed it was Void based (which btw, on the topic of which is older, the Protoss are recorded being Psi based before the Zerg obviously and the Zerg are Void base. There is no evidence saying one is old than the other or that they are even different energies. More evidence describes Psi and Void being the same energy; but just in different forms) Terran's naturally developed Psi and even the Protoss innately had Psi. Psionically adept beings were one of the requirement's for the Xel'naga experiments; so we know Psi is just a thing that permeates the SC universe. It's not synthetic. So what is it?
Two - WTF is Amon? We know he is Xel'naga; however when did he die? Was he truly dead? If he was dead, how was he communicating beyond the Grave? Why and where does this relationship with Duran exist and come from? Why was it needed?
Three - How exactly is Xel'naga formed? What truly completes the Cycle? What did the Zerg need to do in order to succeed in Assimilating the Protoss in SC1 and would that of theoretically created new Xel'naga or not? On a side note, explain the requirements for becoming Purity of Form and Purity of Essence?
After those questions are answered, we can try to lay a logical Amon POV timeline of thought; knowing more clearly what Psi is, what it takes to remake Xel'naga, what the Purities actually stand for and why Amon summoned Duran, influenced the Overmind and requires the Hybrids and what not.
Here's my thought processed based on trying to answer at least some of the above myself through educated guesses.
Establishing a Motive - Amon wishes to remake the Universe. Rather this is because he has a deranged sense of humor, feels that the Xel'naga as a species needs to evolve themselves or is just a guy wanting loads of power; he needs a motive to explain his actions.
- Reason for establishing the events on Auir (speculative that he is involved here) - Amon is dying. His brethren are dying. They are nearing the end of the cycle so he is forced to find ways around their soon inevitable death. He "persuades" his Kin to involve themselves with the Protoss purposely early and quickly resulting in the Protoss ego inflation because he knew it would create tension that would otherwise force the Xel'naga to leave the Protoss behind. It would also force the Protoss into a setback in advancement and hopefully keep them from being too strong for his future plans (aeon of strife).
- Reason for establishing the Overmind and the Zerg's attack on the Xel'naga - Amon uses the Protoss "failure" as an excuse to create a Hive Mind for the Zerg species. In doing so, Amon succeeds in creating a powerful locomotive because the entirety of the species in Unified and susepctable to being controlled. Further more, his "assistance" in creating the Overmind provides him with a possible vessel for his "mind/influence" and allows him to live past his own Life cycle. He purposely exposes the Xel'naga to the Overmind knowing that the Overmind would seek out the Xel'naga in the hopes of consuming them. This is the final result, as planned. Amon, one of the many Xel'naga killed in the Zerg onslaught, lets himself be consumed in order to corrupt the Overmind's thoughts. He knew the Zerg couldn't absorb the Xel'naga biologically, but the Overmind was made just strong enough to absorb knowledge and memories. In this manner, Amon's "mind" is planted as the Influence within the Overmind's own conscious as the Overmind unknowingly consumes Amon.
- Reason for summoning an Agent - Like the Overmnind before it, Amon reached out with his influence to find suitable Agents to serve him physically; as he was now disembodied and contained within the ravaging Swarm Hive Mind. He recovered Duran, influence him and made him into his own Agent. This Agent was required to create the Hybrids that would lead to Amon's resurrection and the continuing of his plans to remake the Universe through domination. Duran was sent out a head of the Swarm and encountered the Terrans. Duran surmised he could use the Terrans to foster the creation of the Hybrids. It was Duran's guile that lead to the Confederates testing Psi Emitter technology. By using Ghost neural imprints, he'd let the Terran's lure the Zerg to the K-sector, so that the Protoss and Zerg would clash close enough to gain specimens for Hybrid creation during the conflicts and using the resulting wars as cover for his actions.
- Reason for destroying the Overmind - Amon's influence had become increasingly powerful and allowed it to sustain itself in Psionic form in some manner we don't understand as of yet (Tassadar still exists... some how...). His influence was now spread through out any manner of controlling beast through out the Swarm; the Overmind, Cerebreates even Kerrigan were now whom harbor his thoughts and mind. The time was nigh to try to weaken the Zerg, reduce the chance of the Zerg creating a method to fight Amon's intentions and ensure the Protoss remained a force too weakened to stop Amon's army of Hybrids. He sees that the Overmind was using the Terrans as a means to find and bolster the Zerg's potential in combat versus the Protoss; this could lead to a threat. He influences the Overmind again to hastily misjudge the Protoss on Auir and leaves it's cherished Prize on Char. It then ascends on Auir too early, without it's new weapon and gets killed. This reduced the Zerg to forcing it's weaker Cerebrates into forming a weaker Overmind; making the Zerg ever more susceptible to future control and manipulation.
- Reason for Duran's inclusion of Kerrigan - Duran sought Kerrigan out in an attempt to judge her as a threat. While her human lust for vengeance delayed the Swarm's threat level to Amon's plans, Duran still saw her as the potential prophetic being that could pose a problem to Amon's plans. Duran assisted her in her Brood War's, assessing her every move. It wasn't long before he was disappearing from her presence in order to begin the process of seeding worlds with the Hybrids. By this time, her potential was unveiled to Duran and he knew that they must act fast to prevent her from becoming who she was prophesied to be. For this reason, Kerrigan's vengeful schemes were embraced as distractions and her humanity was placed before the Zerg's well being; causing to fear in despire and hopelessness in the wake of discovering the Prophecy herself. Had not Zeratul intervened and warned Raynor, Kerrigan would've succumbed to her own depression and thirst for revenge and accepted her death at the hands of Amon than become the being she's now reborn into in HotS.
- Reasoning for Amon's persisted existence - Duran's experiments succeeded prior to Kerrigan's fall as the Queen of Blades and rebirth as the Primal Queen. The Hybrids were now the new vessels for which Amon's influence could reside. All that was left was the needed requirements for a full body resurrections; of which Duran was achieving.
So the whole Idea is that Amon's motive is power/corrupted view of making a better universe/evolving the Xel'naga into a better form or whatever. He is instrumental in the two failures of the Xel'naga, back to back under the pressure the Xel'naga time left is nearing an end. With limited time himself due to age, he pushes his Brethren to act fast in order to reach a point that Amon can persist even beyond death while the whole time deceiving them.
Once he succeeds, he seeks out an agent to carry out his physical manifestations.
Once the Overmind is of no use and is seen as a potential threat should it be kept alive much longer, Amon influences it's death. He doesn't know that the Overmind knew of this plan, created Kerrigan for her true purpose and that it let itself fall on Auir to deceive Amon in return, making the Xel'naga feel he succeeded.
Duran is then interested in Kerrigan, the next threat left but is surprised to see than he and Amon have been played by the Overmind and underestimated the Creature the whole time. Kerrigan is in fact, the predicted individual that can stop Amon, so Duran acts quickly, "Speeding up his progress". Before the Brood War's end, Amon has other vessels outside of the Hive Mind to possess. It is then left to distracting Kerrigan from discovering her true role and accepting death and hopelessness. They nearly succeed, by influencing her humanity over her Zerg will and instinct which would've otherwise been immune to things like "Hopelessness" and "Vengeance". However, Zeratul intervenes and again, Amon and crew are thrown a curve ball.
Kerrigan is "purged" of Amon's influence by the Relic. As a result, her mind is left free to her own will entirely and not just in the minute ways when she was under the guidance of the Overmind due to Amon's corruption. In HotS, she is left to pursue her vengeance once more, but this time willingly chooses her path to become Queen of Blades again through her Primal infestation because her Zerg being is no longer repressed. Completely removed of any corruption by Amon, she seeks to fullfill the Overmind's words to it's Cerebrates in SC1 in which it was defending = "Let her go, Zasz. The greatness of her spirit has been left to her; that the Swarms might benefit from her fierce example. Fear not her designs, for she is bound to me as intimately as any Cerebrate. Truly, no zerg can stray from my will, for all that you are lies wholly within me. Kerrigan is free to do as she desires."
Again, this is really just assumption. We have serious questions that need answering and I need not mention how tough that in itself is going to be when working with Blizzard these days...
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
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Originally Posted by
Einharjar
One - What the Hell is Psi and Void. It seems to be the same thing, just different polarities. Void is Psionics, Psi is ... well, also Psionics. Is that it? Isn't there anymore information? We know Psi is of the natural Universe, what ever it is. The Zerg innately had Psi, though it seemed it was Void based (which btw, on the topic of which is older, the Protoss are recorded being Psi based before the Zerg obviously and the Zerg are Void base. There is no evidence saying one is old than the other or that they are even different energies. More evidence describes Psi and Void being the same energy; but just in different forms) Terran's naturally developed Psi and even the Protoss innately had Psi. Psionically adept beings were one of the requirement's for the Xel'naga experiments; so we know Psi is just a thing that permeates the SC universe. It's not synthetic. So what is it?
Void is a subset of psionics. Khala energy is another subset of psionics. There's lots of options from where the energy itself comes from:
Magnetosphere - "the area of space near an astronomical object in which charged particles are controlled by that object's magnetic field." I think that this is the psionic matrix. Aiur has a psionic matrix, and I believe that is where khalai draw their energy from. I also think that this is where khalai memories are stored and where Tassadar lives. But this is pure speculation obviously.
Dark energy - the universe is theorized by modern physics to consist of almost 70% dark energy. It fuels the expansion of the cosmos. The dark templar are said to draw energy from the cold void of space, and this seems to be the obvious choice. However, it kind of contradicts the queen of blades book where the room became colder when Zeratul activated his warp blade. It implies that the Void effects normal energy too, and not just dark energy.
Solar radiation - all of space has high energy protons, helium and various ions that fly through the cosmos.
Vacuum energy - An "underlying background energy that exists in space throughout the entire Universe". Not very powerful though. A cubic meter only has 10−9 joules of this energy.
The problem really isn't "what is it" it's "how do organic brains access and manipulate this energy?" Equiliari made an earlier post here that I also happen to subscribe to that it works through quantum entanglement. The brain/nerve-cords control one set of entangled particles, and another set of entangled particles is somewhere out in deep space, gathering energy to itself like a magnet and then bringing it back.
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Two - WTF is Amon? We know he is Xel'naga; however when did he die? Was he truly dead? If he was dead, how was he communicating beyond the Grave? Why and where does this relationship with Duran exist and come from? Why was it needed?
No frickin clue. Maybe he just never died. Locked himself in stasis or something.
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Three - How exactly is Xel'naga formed? What truly completes the Cycle? What did the Zerg need to do in order to succeed in Assimilating the Protoss in SC1 and would that of theoretically created new Xel'naga or not? On a side note, explain the requirements for becoming Purity of Form and Purity of Essence?
Zamara explains that they would have merged over aeons, that they wouldn't even notice. Personally, I can't really understand how this would happen without protoss getting assimilated into the swarm.
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On a side note, explain the requirements for becoming Purity of Form and Purity of Essence?
Need to know what those things are. Unfortunately SC2 has only confused the issue rather than clarify it.
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Establishing a Motive - Amon wishes to remake the galaxy.
Fixed. :P
Really, Amon's actions are extremely provincial. What he does doesn't even matter, because the universe is far too vast for anybody to conquer its entirety. Even at insane FTL speeds it would take hundreds of thousands of years just to cross the known universe, let alone subdue every single galaxy in it.
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- Reason for summoning an Agent - Like the Overmnind before it, Amon reached out with his influence to find suitable Agents to serve him physically; as he was now disembodied and contained within the ravaging Swarm Hive Mind. He recovered Duran, influence him and made him into his own Agent. This Agent was required to create the Hybrids that would lead to Amon's resurrection and the continuing of his plans to remake the Universe through domination. Duran was sent out a head of the Swarm and encountered the Terrans. Duran surmised he could use the Terrans to foster the creation of the Hybrids. It was Duran's guile that lead to the Confederates testing Psi Emitter technology. By using Ghost neural imprints, he'd let the Terran's lure the Zerg to the K-sector, so that the Protoss and Zerg would clash close enough to gain specimens for Hybrid creation during the conflicts and using the resulting wars as cover for his actions.
Nice theory, but how does this explain the fact that the Overmind was able to disobey its directives?
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With limited time himself due to age, he pushes his Brethren to act fast in order to reach a point that Amon can persist even beyond death while the whole time deceiving them.
So how does Amon get revived then?
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Kerrigan is "purged" of Amon's influence by the Relic. As a result, her mind is left free to her own will entirely and not just in the minute ways when she was under the guidance of the Overmind due to Amon's corruption.
Actually, she was preparing the swarms for a great battle during the 4 year interlude. She planned on fighting Amon to begin with, though she had a slightly more defeatist nature about it at the time. The artifact didn't actually do anything. In fact, it was detrimental to the cause since it crippled the swarms, nearly killed Kerrigan, and had some of its energy go to resurrecting Amon.
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Zamara explains that they would have merged over aeons, that they wouldn't even notice. Personally, I can't really understand how this would happen without protoss getting assimilated into the swarm.
That we know, but it remains to be seen what the merging would have been like, maybe it would have been a similar concept to the merging of an Archon or Dark Archon.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Fixed. :P
Really, Amon's actions are extremely provincial. What he does doesn't even matter, because the universe is far too vast for anybody to conquer its entirety. Even at insane FTL speeds it would take hundreds of thousands of years just to cross the known universe, let alone subdue every single galaxy in it.
Hence why Blizzard will just use the excuse "he's a god, remember?" To me that's total BS. Even deities have their limitations.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Actually, she was preparing the swarms for a great battle during the 4 year interlude. She planned on fighting Amon to begin with, though she had a slightly more defeatist nature about it at the time. The artifact didn't actually do anything. In fact, it was detrimental to the cause since it crippled the swarms, nearly killed Kerrigan, and had some of its energy go to resurrecting Amon.
I'm not sure she knew of Amon by the end of the Brood War. She knew SOMETHING was on the horizon, but that's all.
Besides Gradius, if Kerrigan felt the artifact was incapable of doing ANYTHING, she wouldn't have bothered looking for it back in WoL.
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
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I'm not sure she knew of Amon by the end of the Brood War. She knew SOMETHING was on the horizon, but that's all.
Her words are:
A storm is coming that CANNOT be stopped. Fitting - that we should face oblivion together.
Wouldn't it be better to end your struggle now than witness the final agonizing moments of your species?
Definitely indicates that she knows what's up.
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
Besides Gradius, if Kerrigan felt the artifact was incapable of doing ANYTHING, she wouldn't have bothered looking for it back in WoL.
Right, she knew that the artifact posed a danger to her and that it's energy was used by Narud to help revive Amon. That's why she said "I've seen past your Dr. Narurd's pathetic charade." This further supports the fact that we were working for the bad guys in WoL.
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Her words are:
A storm is coming that CANNOT be stopped. Fitting - that we should face oblivion together.
Wouldn't it be better to end your struggle now than witness the final agonizing moments of your species?
Definitely indicates that she knows what's up.
No, I meant JUST as the Brood War ended. If you look at the epilogue, she thought it was perhaps a hollow victory with the trials yet to come. So at that point, I'm just not sure WHAT she understood.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Right, she knew that the artifact posed a danger to her and that it's energy was used by Narud to help revive Amon. That's why she said "I've seen past your Dr. Narurd's pathetic charade." This further supports the fact that we were working for the bad guys in WoL.
Kerrigan didn't know that the artifact would be used to revive Amon in WoL.
Remember, in HotS, she was discussing that issue with Stukov, and wondering where Narud would get all the psionic energy from. Stukov speculated that all the psionic energy of the original QoB had to go somewhere when she got blasted by the artifact, and only THEN did Kerrigan see that this probably revived Amon.
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Void is a subset of psionics. Khala energy is another subset of psionics. There's lots of options from where the energy itself comes from:
Magnetosphere - "the area of space near an astronomical object in which charged particles are controlled by that object's magnetic field." I think that this is the psionic matrix. Aiur has a psionic matrix, and I believe that is where khalai draw their energy from. I also think that this is where khalai memories are stored and where Tassadar lives. But this is pure speculation obviously.
Dark energy - the universe is theorized by modern physics to consist of almost 70% dark energy. It fuels the expansion of the cosmos. The dark templar are said to draw energy from the cold void of space, and this seems to be the obvious choice. However, it kind of contradicts the queen of blades book where the room became colder when Zeratul activated his warp blade. It implies that the Void effects normal energy too, and not just dark energy.
Solar radiation - all of space has high energy protons, helium and various ions that fly through the cosmos.
Vacuum energy - An "underlying background energy that exists in space throughout the entire Universe". Not very powerful though. A cubic meter only has 10−9 joules of this energy.
The problem really isn't "what is it" it's "how do organic brains access and manipulate this energy?" Equiliari made an earlier post here that I also happen to subscribe to that it works through quantum entanglement. The brain/nerve-cords control one set of entangled particles, and another set of entangled particles is somewhere out in deep space, gathering energy to itself like a magnet and then bringing it back.
I actually heard of several theories matching as well. One being Electro Magnetic, the other being Gravitonic. I believe the Anatomy of Starcraft series went over it and I spoke with ItWhoSpeaks I think about it? It's cool n' all, but Psi is FTL and able to break numerous barriers. While Gravity is space bending, that still doesn't explain the Void.
Also, just so we're not confused here, you're using Khala Energy to hence forth refer to the "Positive Psi" I keep refering too. But to remind us all, THE Khala, itself, isn't an energy.
[The Khala ("Path of Ascension") is the main religion of the Khalai protoss. It is based on a psionic philosophy that maintains a communal psionic link between all adherents.[1] Followers are further subdivided into at least five level of adepts.]
It's a discipline. Just so we're clear here and we don't confused are selves.
The Quantum Entanglement theory wouldn't work. Q-E in no way transfers energy. Nerve cells have no way of interacting with the Q-E particles and those particles do not "transmit" anything; not information, not energy; they only match states via super positioning. Trust me, I looked at this as well. Quantum Entanglement is only useful when sending data via Quantum Computing but it's not in the ways conventional systems work. Sucks really.
I'm more inclined to accept outer universal energies, energies that have permeated since before the 4 forces were created, Gravity, Electromagnetism, Space and Time. The Higgs Field is one such "energy" force that existed* prior to those forces being created in our particular universe. This opens our eyes to the idea of Multiverses easily and if there can be multiple universes; than what other forces may their in our own, just outside our own or even left over from what we may have been before.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
No frickin clue. Maybe he just never died. Locked himself in stasis or something.
Since they keep refering to him as needing a ressurection, I assume he's dead. I simply theorized his Death was at the hand of the Zerg and was trying to be more dramatic and clever when describing how he even "influenced" the Overmind to begin with. If we find him in stasis, locked away like some Argus Jewel remake again... I'm going to break my screen while playing LotV...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Zamara explains that they would have merged over aeons, that they wouldn't even notice. Personally, I can't really understand how this would happen without protoss getting assimilated into the swarm.
And this doesn't seem to make sense. Over Aeons? Zamara really? You mean, the Protoss are willingly going to cross breed? WHAT? Even worse... HOW?
The DT saga broke a few things; especially basic speculations of the Lore. The Aeon of Strife was completely changed and the Xel'naga are turned from being simply, comsmically unique species to some Sooper Spechul people..
If she's taken seriously by the writers, than we're forced to try and figure out how in the F' the Zerg were even chosen to be Purity of Essence when even before Amon's brain washing of the Overmind; the Zerg's only way to merge was via irradications and assimiliatoins... like WTF...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Need to know what those things are. Unfortunately SC2 has only confused the issue rather than clarify it.
And the above issue is one of the reasons for such confusion. This isn't just SC2. I know people respect some of the Authors for the books but none of them did research on their material first and Metzen was forgetful enough to go "Yup, good enough!" when reviewing the finished product...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Fixed. :P
Fair enough, but -
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Really, Amon's actions are extremely provincial. What he does doesn't even matter, because the universe is far too vast for anybody to conquer its entirety. Even at insane FTL speeds it would take hundreds of thousands of years just to cross the known universe, let alone subdue every single galaxy in it.
Xel'naga originally came from other Galaxies. Presumably, since Andromeda is the closest, that would be the first Galaxy that Amon will remember prior to our own. I do not see him stopping at the Milky Way if he was to be fleshed out and shown just how motivated he is; plus the results of this plan of his.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Nice theory, but how does this explain the fact that the Overmind was able to disobey its directives?
Fortitude. The Overmind on one hand was simply a Zerg collective hub for all living creatures. Like, hooking up 20 computers into one deck to make a server. The server controller just organizes it, but all the instinct and will is actually from the entire species beating one heart beat - mentally that is. However, the Overmind had some individuality. If he didn't, then there would've been no Cerebrates with unique traits or simply no Cerebrates at all. Hell, not even Abathur might've been possible.
This internal individuality may have had the Fortitude to resist and hide it's existence from it's own "Hive Mind", thus evading detection. It's the same way I'd explain the current issue with Blizzard's simple explanations given in the WoL missions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
So how does Amon get revived then?
Can't answer this. We've yet to see it. Only clues are that the Hybrids can suck psionic energy and maybe that's for the purpose of resurrecting him. Other than that? It's all on Blizzard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Actually, she was preparing the swarms for a great battle during the 4 year interlude. She planned on fighting Amon to begin with, though she had a slightly more defeatist nature about it at the time. The artifact didn't actually do anything. In fact, it was detrimental to the cause since it crippled the swarms, nearly killed Kerrigan, and had some of its energy go to resurrecting Amon.
I was also refering to the HotS timeline in which she's accepted her role. She's doing the best for the Zerg. Amon will hunt them, one way or another. If there is a chance that she can win; through alliances, through power, through guile or exploiting a weakness. The big thing I saw in HotS was that she went from accepting death because it was hopeless, to accepting death as a possibility but victory could still be possible even after she dies; because she's not alone. So even if she dies, there is still a chance the species can live on via one of her Brood Mothers.
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einharjar
And this doesn't seem to make sense. Over Aeons? Zamara really? You mean, the Protoss are willingly going to cross breed? WHAT? Even worse... HOW?
The DT saga broke a few things; especially basic speculations of the Lore. The Aeon of Strife was completely changed and the Xel'naga are turned from being simply, comsmically unique species to some Sooper Spechul people..
If she's taken seriously by the writers, than we're forced to try and figure out how in the F' the Zerg were even chosen to be Purity of Essence when even before Amon's brain washing of the Overmind; the Zerg's only way to merge was via irradications and assimiliatoins... like WTF...
And the above issue is one of the reasons for such confusion. This isn't just SC2. I know people respect some of the Authors for the books but none of them did research on their material first and Metzen was forgetful enough to go "Yup, good enough!" when reviewing the finished product...
Hence the problem with Christie Golden. It's not that the DT Saga books sucked, but I don't think she read the SC1 manual when she wrote those books...
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Originally Posted by
Einharjar
Fortitude. The Overmind on one hand was simply a Zerg collective hub for all living creatures. Like, hooking up 20 computers into one deck to make a server. The server controller just organizes it, but all the instinct and will is actually from the entire species beating one heart beat - mentally that is. However, the Overmind had some individuality. If he didn't, then there would've been no Cerebrates with unique traits or simply no Cerebrates at all. Hell, not even Abathur might've been possible.
This internal individuality may have had the Fortitude to resist and hide it's existence from it's own "Hive Mind", thus evading detection. It's the same way I'd explain the current issue with Blizzard's simple explanations given in the WoL missions.
See, this is why I believe the Overmind's original purpose might have not been JUST to control the Zerg like we thought.
From the DT Saga, Zamara explained that it takes a LOT of time for the two species the Xel'Naga uplift to find each other, and even then it's a gamble on chance whether they'll merge or not.
If that's true, then perhaps the Overmind's other purpose was to make sure the Zerg don't go extinct before they finally find the Protoss species. After all, according to the LotV page on SC wiki, the Protoss have been dying out LONG before SC1 occurred.
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
*facepalm* I didn't mean the Cerebrates would die INSTANTLY if the Overmind is killed.
You know that this is not what I wrote or implied. My point still stands that in BW, the cerebrates were still very much effective even after the Overmind was killed. The cerebrates seemed to be quite co-ordinated on Shakuras. Being deemed "feral" and "ineffective" is just an informed trait.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
Of course the Void is older. The Xel'Naga knew of the Void before they even visited Aiur.
You've just proven my point then that Amon could've (or should've if subscribing to Ein's interpretation) killed Overmind right from the get go, especially if this is what Amon really wanted.
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
As for the villains who are too powerful with this memory gap, that's always the excuse if the time span is trillions of years or something, the developers always use the "over the period of this time" to be vague, so we can't hold them responsible.
Of course we can hold them responsible because this is an example of the trope of "Sci-Fi writers have no sense of .... (fill in whatever is appropriate)". Their justification of Amon somehow not knowing something so elementary is because the writers are thinking of Amon in, relatively speaking, human terms when he is supposed to be anything but.
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
Either that or since the Overmind felt Kerrigan did a reasonable job, although not successful, it just let her decide for herself how to deal with the Dark Templar and all.
I wouldn't call failing to kill either Zeratul and the Dark Templar (who were eventually responsible for murdering the gateway cerebrates that were guarding it) and Tassadar (the eventual and actual instrument for its death) as being a "reasonable job" on her part given that it was her sole responsibility on Char. :/ Kerrigan failed in her task - it's as simple as that.
There was no other ulterior motive for "leaving Kerrigan behind" (if one can still call it that) then and there should'n't have been now. Kerrigan probably had the most important and most dangerous task of all - having to face a new and credible threat (permanent death of cerebrates and itself would be considered a "big thing" to put it mildly) the Overmind didn't expect or fathom since arriving in the Koprulu sector. She was not "safely out of harm's way" as some people suggest, which is funny because it is that aforementioned reason (Kerrigan being left behind for "safety") Sc2 hinges on for their retcon "Zerg Saviour" thing it's spouting and it's completely wrong!
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
The prophecy didn't exist the moment he corrupted the Overmind. For all we know, the prophecy didn't exist even after the killing of the other Xel'Naga.
Sure, but the specific information about Kerrigan being the one thing to stop Amon would've had to have existed at that point for it was Amon himself that proclaimed as such in the Overmind's vision and that it was the only time the Overmind and Amon would've interacted. Otherwise, it just means the Overmind was guessing or daydreaming or something. So we're now supposed to take that vision as just being fanciful as it really always was (like I've always thought mind you) and that it provided no real or new information? Great, another reason for why WoL was totally irrelevant. :(
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Originally Posted by
Einharjar
Reason for destroying the Overmind - Amon's influence had become increasingly powerful and allowed it to sustain itself in Psionic form in some manner we don't understand as of yet (Tassadar still exists... some how...). His influence was now spread through out any manner of controlling beast through out the Swarm; the Overmind, Cerebreates even Kerrigan were now whom harbor his thoughts and mind. The time was nigh to try to weaken the Zerg, reduce the chance of the Zerg creating a method to fight Amon's intentions and ensure the Protoss remained a force too weakened to stop Amon's army of Hybrids. He sees that the Overmind was using the Terrans as a means to find and bolster the Zerg's potential in combat versus the Protoss; this could lead to a threat. He influences the Overmind again to hastily misjudge the Protoss on Auir and leaves it's cherished Prize on Char. It then ascends on Auir too early, without it's new weapon and gets killed. This reduced the Zerg to forcing it's weaker Cerebrates into forming a weaker Overmind; making the Zerg ever more susceptible to future control and manipulation.
But that would mean Amon failed and that he should've known about this ahead of time, especially if Amon's directive is really Amon itself integrated into the Overmind. Amon knows that if the Overmind would ever convert a psionic potential into the Zerg's midst, then it would mean a potential future threat to it. Naturally, this would/should be reason for the directive to steer the Overmind away from suicide because with the Overmind still being around, the directive/"Amon" would still be in control of this newly integrated psionic potential (in this case, Kerrigan). In such a case, there would be no way for the "real" Overmind to ever double-think it's way to suicide because that would be in counter of what the directive/Amon would've wanted.
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Originally Posted by
Einharjar
Reason for Duran's inclusion of Kerrigan - Duran sought Kerrigan out in an attempt to judge her as a threat. While her human lust for vengeance delayed the Swarm's threat level to Amon's plans, Duran still saw her as the potential prophetic being that could pose a problem to Amon's plans. Duran assisted her in her Brood War's, assessing her every move. It wasn't long before he was disappearing from her presence in order to begin the process of seeding worlds with the Hybrids. By this time, her potential was unveiled to Duran and he knew that they must act fast to prevent her from becoming who she was prophesied to be. For this reason, Kerrigan's vengeful schemes were embraced as distractions and her humanity was placed before the Zerg's well being; causing to fear in despire and hopelessness in the wake of discovering the Prophecy herself. Had not Zeratul intervened and warned Raynor, Kerrigan would've succumbed to her own depression and thirst for revenge and accepted her death at the hands of Amon than become the being she's now reborn into in HotS.
This is classic "Evil Overlord Syndrome" right here. :rolleyes:
If there was any potential for Kerrigan being the "prophetic threat", Duran would not have just sat by, observed or even helped Kerrigan consolidate more power. He would've killed her the instant he got next to her as any real villain would do. Given the many moving parts that could fail at any time due to this labyrinthine, aeon spanning plan, one would think that a modicum of pragmatism would be present. "Better safe than sorry" should be their bloody motto!
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Originally Posted by
Einharjar
Kerrigan is "purged" of Amon's influence by the Relic.
That's a pretty dumb move on Amon and Duran's part (don't know who deserves the discredit more....). If Kerrigan was still under Amon's influence prior to the artifact, why risk her being free to potentially fulfill the prophesied threat against Amon. That's just asking for trouble. I mean, jeez, was it really that important to have Amon revived at this very moment? All it will do is hasten him back into the grave.
I can understand that if Kerrigan was still under the influence of Amon with the Overmind being dead (which only partially resolves the above matter of Amon forcing the Overmind's suicide) then things could be potentially OK for team Duran/Amon, but then moving forward to completely freeing her without killing her is just....so....lacking in foresight that any form of credibility whatsoever has disappeared into a bottomless pit. :p
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Magnetosphere - "the area of space near an astronomical object in which charged particles are controlled by that object's magnetic field." I think that this is the psionic matrix. Aiur has a psionic matrix, and I believe that is where khalai draw their energy from. I also think that this is where khalai memories are stored and where Tassadar lives. But this is pure speculation obviously.
Oh, hell yes, this! I've always factored Aiur to be somewhat symbiotic (not just symbolic) to the Protoss with that inherent psionic matrix. It gives a sort of Side Meier's Alpha Centari's Planet (Chiron)- feel to them, minus the horrifying mind worms and xenofungus that is.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Zamara explains that they would have merged over aeons, that they wouldn't even notice. Personally, I can't really understand how this would happen without protoss getting assimilated into the swarm.
Exactly. In their current forms, there is no natural and mutual way for them to join, let alone the fact that they'll just try to tear each other apart when placed in the same room. I figured that the only way for this merging to happen is for them to evolve beyond their forms such that they would not be classically recognised as either Protoss or Zerg anymore.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Really, Amon's actions are extremely provincial. What he does doesn't even matter...
What do you know, Gods are small-minded afterall. :p
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Nice theory, but how does this explain the fact that the Overmind was able to disobey its directives?
The only defence I've heard is that it is a form of double-think (I'm going to call it "double-act" because it's based on actual actions): it does one thing that is somehow seen as forwarding the directive but also forwarding the real Overmind's agenda at the same time despite the agenda's of both being contradictory to each other. The whole concept is the basis of ShadowArchon's argumentation style and, much like everything in Sc2 so far, doublethink is anathema to any system of logic. It's nice of Blizzard to not tell us that they're secretly trolling us, isn't it? ;)
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
So how does Amon get revived then?
Haven't you been listening, Gradius? It's through psionic energy (read: MAGIC)! :p:D
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Actually, she was preparing the swarms for a great battle during the 4 year interlude. She planned on fighting Amon to begin with, though she had a slightly more defeatist nature about it at the time. The artifact didn't actually do anything. In fact, it was detrimental to the cause since it crippled the swarms, nearly killed Kerrigan, and had some of its energy go to resurrecting Amon.
Man, it's so hard not to be facetious...
Was it in the books that said Kerrigan was preparing to fight the "threat on the horizon"? In WoL, it didn't look like she was prepared for anything - probably just scared and holing up on Char until a threat to her existence was suddenly revealed so she decided to come out. That she pretty much advocates placid suicide to Zeratul (let's just die together, Ok? :p) indicates that, too.
The artifact is nothing more than a plot device/excuse for them to reset and write whatever they want. Whatever comes next is irrelevent and mere "details" but the fact is the artifact could've also removed any hidden (read: contrived) hesitance she might have felt because I mean, why not? It's so miraculous in turning her human again, afterall. Meh.
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
You know that this is not what I wrote or implied. My point still stands that in BW, the cerebrates were still very much effective even after the Overmind was killed. The cerebrates seemed to be quite co-ordinated on Shakuras. Being deemed "feral" and "ineffective" is just an informed trait.
Well yeah there was no real case of feral Cerebrates, only the feral Zerg, since most aren't sentient. The Cerebrates certainly are...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
You've just proven my point then that Amon could've (or should've if subscribing to Ein's interpretation) killed Overmind right from the get go, especially if this is what Amon really wanted.
Unless Amon cannot control the swarm HIMSELF and needs the hybrids to, which to me seems unlikely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I wouldn't call failing to kill either Zeratul and the Dark Templar (who were eventually responsible for murdering the gateway cerebrates that were guarding it) and Tassadar (the eventual and actual instrument for its death) as being a "reasonable job" on her part given that it was her sole responsibility on Char. :/ Kerrigan failed in her task - it's as simple as that.
So maybe the Overmind expected her to eventually leave Char and go after them or something, it was never clear for that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
If there was any potential for Kerrigan being the "prophetic threat", Duran would not have just sat by, observed or even helped Kerrigan consolidate more power. He would've killed her the instant he got next to her as any real villain would do. Given the many moving parts that could fail at any time due to this labyrinthine, aeon spanning plan, one would think that a modicum of pragmatism would be present. "Better safe than sorry" should be their bloody motto!
You don't get it, Turalyon. Duran helped her get more power because by the beginning of BW, her psionic power level was still INSUFFICIENT to revive Amon right away. That could be why he helped her, so that once she WAS finally blasted by the artifact, the hybrids would reap the max benefit.
Besides, if you recall from the Hand of Darkness and Phantoms of the Void mission, Duran/Narud was certainly surprised that Kerrigan made it so far, indicating that he too didn't think she was capable of pulling this off. Call it his own arrogance, if you will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
That's a pretty dumb move on Amon and Duran's part (don't know who deserves the discredit more....). If Kerrigan was still under Amon's influence prior to the artifact, why risk her being free to potentially fulfill the prophesied threat against Amon. That's just asking for trouble. I mean, jeez, was it really that important to have Amon revived at this very moment? All it will do is hasten him back into the grave.
You forget that Duran wasn't on Ulaan when Zeratul uncovered the prophecy. It's possible that maybe because of what happened to Raszagal, Duran didn't expect Zeratul to help Kerrigan. Hell, for all we know, when she fought him at the end of Phantoms of the Void, Duran might not have even known that the new infestation was a primal infestation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
What do you know, Gods are small-minded afterall.
That's the problem with being a god. You always underestimate the "little guy."
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
No, I meant JUST as the Brood War ended. If you look at the epilogue, she thought it was perhaps a hollow victory with the trials yet to come. So at that point, I'm just not sure WHAT she understood.
I think that's because the whole dark voice stuff is a retcon. Either she gained knowledge of him through the zergs' communal memory or found out some other way. Though I assume it's the former. Still, she'd have been building up her forces anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
Kerrigan didn't know that the artifact would be used to revive Amon in WoL.
Remember, in HotS, she was discussing that issue with Stukov, and wondering where Narud would get all the psionic energy from. Stukov speculated that all the psionic energy of the original QoB had to go somewhere when she got blasted by the artifact, and only THEN did Kerrigan see that this probably revived Amon.
Right, I'm just saying that it was pretty detrimental to the cause. :P
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einharjar
Also, just so we're not confused here, you're using Khala Energy to hence forth refer to the "Positive Psi" I keep refering too.
But to remind us all, THE Khala, itself, isn't an energy.
[The Khala ("Path of Ascension") is the main religion of the Khalai protoss. It is based on a psionic philosophy that maintains a communal psionic link between all adherents.[1] Followers are further subdivided into at least five level of adepts.]
It's a discipline. Just so we're clear here and we don't confused are selves.
That's up for debate, as khala energy is used in the lore to refer to templar energies and/or the psionic matrix several times, namely in the manual where it says "High Templar are able to channel the energies of the Khala", and then throughout the Lens of the Void short story.
I've been saying Khala energy but I think the most proper term is actually Khalai energy, the energy that the Khalai people use. I'm having trouble getting onboard with this positive psi and negative psi as it's mentioned nowhere in the lore.
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The Quantum Entanglement theory wouldn't work. Q-E in no way transfers energy. Nerve cells have no way of interacting with the Q-E particles and those particles do not "transmit" anything; not information, not energy; they only match states via super positioning. Trust me, I looked at this as well. Quantum Entanglement is only useful when sending data via Quantum Computing but it's not in the ways conventional systems work. Sucks really.
Just to clarify, I know that current QE theory prohibits information transfer, and I'm not saying this is the source of the protoss' power. I'm saying it would be a mechanism to gather/effect energy from outside the protoss' brain. Obviously nerve cells as we know them don't have this ability, but in SC the protoss or terrans could have evolved it (artificially most likely, by the xel'naga and then by the UPL cyberneticists, respectively).
Now, yes, it does suck that you can't control entangled particles as of yet because trying would cause it to take on a random value, but experiments are breaking ground on finding loopholes to this even now. I like to think that with some more advanced technology, the protoss or terrans could have evolved their brains to do this. Basically, QE seems like the most logical choice for how protoss can effect energy beyond their own brain, even if the laws of physics in SC don't match that of ours. =/
I mean, what else is there? Quantum teleportation? Some other force that can draw/gather energy/particles? QE seems like an elegant explanation because having control of actual particles can explain alot:
1) Archon merge. One of the craziest and most ridiculous things in all of SC. But the protoss could influence their entangled particles to turn their bodies into energy and create some sort of chemical bonds that hold them together. Not an easy process, which is why the archon warp takes a while.
2) Telepathy. Reading another mind just becomes a matter of using the entangled particles to detect impulses in the brain, and communication becomes a matter of simulating neural activity with these particles.
Crazy advanced and absurd technology that wouldn't work in our universe. But...it's an explanation. :P
Here is Equi's original post: http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthrea...l=1#post184100
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I'm more inclined to accept outer universal energies, energies that have permeated since before the 4 forces were created, Gravity, Electromagnetism, Space and Time. The Higgs Field is one such "energy" force that existed* prior to those forces being created in our particular universe.
I think you mean weak and strong force, not space and time. My only problem with using a force to explain how psionics work is that forces only act on objects, so that explains how psionics might affect something, but not where they get the energy to do work from. A brain generating any kind of force doesn't exactly have precise control.
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Since they keep refering to him as needing a ressurection, I assume he's dead. I simply theorized his Death was at the hand of the Zerg and was trying to be more dramatic and clever when describing how he even "influenced" the Overmind to begin with. If we find him in stasis, locked away like some Argus Jewel remake again... I'm going to break my screen while playing LotV...
Well, you know how Blizzard can be... "flexible" with its lore these days. :P
I actually don't understand how somebody can survive the death of his body without being in stasis or the like, so I really hope that it was metaphor. This is sci-fi. You don't just summon Amon back from hell.
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And this doesn't seem to make sense. Over Aeons? Zamara really? You mean, the Protoss are willingly going to cross breed? WHAT? Even worse... HOW?
The DT saga broke a few things; especially basic speculations of the Lore. The Aeon of Strife was completely changed and the Xel'naga are turned from being simply, comsmically unique species to some Sooper Spechul people..
If she's taken seriously by the writers, than we're forced to try and figure out how in the F' the Zerg were even chosen to be Purity of Essence when even before Amon's brain washing of the Overmind; the Zerg's only way to merge was via irradications and assimiliatoins... like WTF...
My least favorite of the lore mangling done in that book is the fact that the protoss were reverted to stone-age before the aeon of strife.
1) Contradicts the manual that the protoss were making advanced leaps in technology with the help of the xel'naga.
2) Makes the protoss a young race, not old. Savassan himself said so.
3) The protoss no longer had a lost golden age with crazy advanced technologies that they lost after the strife. Now their "golden age" was just 1000 years ago. That's one protoss lifetime. Pointless. I absolutely how Golden and SC2's writers make everything so small scale. =/
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Xel'naga originally came from other Galaxies. Presumably, since Andromeda is the closest, that would be the first Galaxy that Amon will remember prior to our own. I do not see him stopping at the Milky Way if he was to be fleshed out and shown just how motivated he is; plus the results of this plan of his.
My personal theory is that the xel'naga actually created this universe. They were reaching the heat-death of their own universe, and ours bubbled off from theirs, or perhaps they found a way to travel across the multiverse. The only shred of evidence I have to support this is Duran saying the cycle was pre-ordained "when the stars were young" and the Ulaan prophecy saying "The xel'naga, who forged the stars, Will transcend their creation".
But you're right, it's more likely that they just evolved very early on in our universe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I figured that the only way for this merging to happen is for them to evolve beyond their forms such that they would not be classically recognised as either Protoss or Zerg anymore.
I think that's what Golden was going for. And this is actually one of those cases where I might be fine with the "it's so alien that I can't understand the logic behind it" excuse.
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What do you know, Gods are small-minded afterall. :p
True. Billions upon billions of planets out there in the universe, with galaxies colliding and stars exploding, but God cares more about whether you circumcise your penis here on Earth. :P
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Was it in the books that said Kerrigan was preparing to fight the "threat on the horizon"?
I'm thinking of HoTS when Ishza tells Kerrigan "you were preparing us to fight a great battle" but Kerrigan can't remember what.
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
I think that's because the whole dark voice stuff is a retcon. Either she gained knowledge of him through the zergs' communal memory or found out some other way. Though I assume it's the former. Still, she'd have been building up her forces anyway.
See we had originally believed she had been building up her forces because she allowed Mengsk to live, and let the Protoss go, so we believed she was doing this to humiliate them again another day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Right, I'm just saying that it was pretty detrimental to the cause. :P
Unless Blizzard sheds more light on the artifact in LotV, instead of for the sake of "Deus Ex Machina."
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
[QUOTE=Gradius;192395] That's up for debate, as khala energy is used in the lore to refer to templar energies and/or the psionic matrix several times, namely in the manual where it says "High Templar are able to channel the energies of the Khala", and then throughout the Lens of the Void short story.
I've been saying Khala energy but I think the most proper term is actually Khalai energy, the energy that the Khalai people use. I'm having trouble getting onboard with this positive psi and negative psi as it's mentioned nowhere in the lore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Just to clarify, I know that current QE theory prohibits information transfer over FTL, and I'm not saying this is the source of the protoss' power. I'm saying it would be a mechanism to gather/effect energy from outside the protoss' brain. Obviously nerve cells as we know them don't have this ability, but in SC the protoss or terrans could have evolved it (artificially most likely, by the xel'naga and then by the UPL cyberneticists, respectively).
Now, yes, it does suck that you can't control entangled particles as of yet because measuring it would cause it to take on a random value, but experiments are breaking ground on finding loopholes to this even now. I like to think that with some more advanced technology, the protoss or terrans could have evolved their brains to do this. Basically, QE seems like the most logical choice for how protoss can effect energy beyond their own brain, even if the laws of physics in SC don't match our laws of physics. =/
I mean, what else is there? Quantum teleportation? Some other force that can draw/gather energy/particles? QE seems like an elegant explanation because having control of actual particles can explain alot:
1) Archon merge. One of the craziest and most ridiculous things in all of SC. But particles can turn into energy. The protoss could influence their entangled particles to turn their bodies' particles into energy or create some sort of chemical bonds that hold them together. Not an easy process, which is why the archon warp takes a while.
2) Telepathy. Reading another mind just becomes a matter of using the entangled particles to detect impulses in the brain, and communication becomes a matter of simulating neural activity with these particles.
Crazy advanced and absurd technology that wouldn't work in our universe. But...it's an explanation. :P
Here is Equi's original post:
http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthrea...l=1#post184100
Thats the wierd thing though. All QE is really good for is basically Cosmic Morse Code and Teleportation. The "bond" between the two particles in no way transfers anything. So the Psionic cannot just, absorb energy from else where using QE, doesn't work like that. There is literally no energy to absorb. The only benefit to QE is each particle acts a signal, essentially. What one does, the other reverses. So in the manner that Teleportation works, the set amount of "mass" needed for an object attempting to Teleport needs to already be there. So if QE was used to draw energy to create a Psionic Storm, what would basically be happening is a Psionic Storm is already going on else where and is being "teleported" to the designated area. This is fine within itself but then you run into the Problem with our Universe itself not supporting this...
The other issue with this is that Psionics is then relegated to being a part of one of the 4 Forces. That cannot be, as with the amount of energy Psionics seems to manifest (even breaking FTL speeds), there isn't room in our universe's model for any of the 4 force's to include Psionics. It would through off the balance.
The only Energy that seems available is Dark Energy; but Dark Energy increases in Power the farther away any item of mass is as if it were the opposite of gravity. However at least we're looking at a force that can bend light, go FTL and several other requirements.
I'll read the post you gave me though for reference. It still seems interesting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
I think you mean weak and strong force, not space and time. My only problem with using a force to explain how psionics work is that forces only act on objects, so that explains how psionics might affect something, but not where they get the energy to do work from. A brain generating any kind of force doesn't exactly have precise control.
You are absolutely correct. I got up and headed online to correct that. I was distracted and just started blabbing. The two Nuclear Forces are in fact the other forces; ones the Nuclear force that maintains nuclei, the other is weaker Nuclear force that creates radioactive decay. My bad.
Force is our material universe. Matter and Energy are practically the same thing, Just in different states.
The issue with using the Forces is understandable, if for one main reason is that Psionics appears to be so powerful that it can bend space-time, it radiates at FTL and when applied against matter/energy it's extremely destructive (you can blow up planets with this crap....). Thus the issue leads into the above reply. That's a lot of energy that some how, we have not accounted for in our model. All 4 Forces balance each other out and Psionics has no room being one of those 4.
This would mean an entirely new 5th force would have to be applied because all the other forces, Gravity, Electromag, Nuclear and Decay are all accounted for and balance each other out. Gravity is actually seen at first to be the weakest of the forces but math proves it's not. If a 5th force was added, our Physics Model falls a part and so does our universe. To keep this from happening, Psi needs to be made into a intra-comsic energy field like the Higgs Field; one that still exists today and provides something that won't destroy the physics of the universe. Instead, interactions with it cause to show manifestations, like how the Higgs Field and Higgs Boson give particles Mass. It can be an Ethereal field for all I care, a remnant of an older universe or hell, maybe a bleeding energy from the outside universe that simply has no direct effects on anything like Tachyons. What ever it may be. I draw my theories on pure creativity and selecting an outer universe field as the source. The Lore talks about how the Xel'naga had mathematical preferences for things like the Golden Mean, Golden Ratio and other Fibonacci numbers. So in my fanfic, I made a connection between these things in Nature, why Xel'naga appreciated them and how Psionics is attracted to them. It's all fan theory.
The other reason I prefer Psi to have two parts, is that the universe seems to always support two halves. There's usually always an Anti-Everything to promote balance and stability. Thus, since Psi seems to manifest in the form of Energy in what we see in SC and the two seem to alter one another depending on the situation? I promote a "Positive" vs "Negative" adaptation analogous to the Anti vs Non-Anti we see in our current physics. Maybe this trend is quite standard through out the multiverse and so I apply it here too; despite Psi not interfering with our universe's physics model according to SC.
As to why I'm staunchly against calling Psi - Khala - is because the "Khala" wasn't even mentioned until Khas himself. Prior to that, Protoss were innately connected. There was nothing special, no discipline or anything. The Khala was meant to reinvigorate that old tribal Psionic Link. Xel'naga didn't practice it, Zerg don't practice is. There is more evidence stating the Khala as just being a discipline than the Psionic Energy itself. Any scripts that say otherwise is likely leading to yet again, another consistency error within the Lore... which wouldn't surprise me. I do agree though that if anything, it should've been Khalai** energy, as in; the writer was refering to the Psi that Khalai specifically focus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Well, you know how Blizzard can be... "flexible" with its lore these days. :P
[rolls eyes] ...yea, unfortunately.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
I actually don't understand how somebody can survive the death of his body without being in stasis or the like, so I really hope that it was metaphor. This is sci-fi. You don't just summon Amon back from hell.
Well Sci Fi even has room for that. This is no different that the idea of the Matrix Films where the brain's conscious could be transferred else where or onto another rmedia. This is no different the few philanthropists today dumping money into the R&D searching for ways to "down load the brain" so that a willing individual can be a recycled as a new vessel in the future. The Brain is just an organ that contain information and accesses information via circuitry. Amon simply transfers his mental being into the Overmind's in order to preserve what really makes a sentient being sentient; the mind of one. I can still see my theory working via Sci Fi mannerisms with more detail involved. Of course, one of the ways of making this cool sci fi idea is by explaining Psi. I don't know, we're all being more creative here than Blizzard is at any rate so we all deserve a Scratch-n-Sniff for effort at least! :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
My least favorite of the lore mangling done in that book is the fact that the protoss were reverted to stone-age before the aeon of strife.
1) Contradicts the manual that the protoss were making advanced leaps in technology with the help of the xel'naga.
2) Makes the protoss a young race, not old. Savassan himself said so.
3) The protoss no longer had a lost golden age with crazy advanced technologies that they lost after the strife. Now their "golden age" was just 1000 years ago. That's one protoss lifetime. Pointless. I absolutely how Golden and SC2's writers make everything so small scale. =/
I hear you on every thing here... Ragnorok and I were talking about that last night.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
My personal theory is that the xel'naga actually created this universe. They were reaching the heat-death of their own universe, and ours bubbled off from theirs, or perhaps they found a way to travel across the multiverse. The only shred of evidence I have to support this is Duran saying the cycle was pre-ordained "when the stars were young" and the Ulaan prophecy saying "The xel'naga, who forged the stars, Will transcend their creation".
But you're right, it's more likely that they just evolved very early on in our universe.
Sometimes they make things sound overly poetic to make it sound worth while. Like, Techno-babble, the stuff Hollywood writers use to make scientific topics sound like they know what they are writing when they don't. I mean, if they were actually able to create solar systems, birth stars and create the Universe with each generation.. wouldn't they have already transcended any creation they made? It's more like the other way around... when they die, their creations transcend them and continue on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
I think that's what Golden was going for. And this is actually one of those cases where I might be fine with the "it's so alien that I can't understand the logic behind it" excuse.
This is a neat idea but it throws the whole Cycle thing into such a catastrophic lore failure it's unreal. Instead of making things more consistent, she makes things even LESS consistent. Now they have to describe that very scenario to make sense. Now the purity of form and purity of essence needs a major over haul. Will these forms even stay as those creatures evolve? And how does this even make sense to begin with when the Zerg's prior history even before the Overmind was predatory assimilation. Not only that but the Protoss are dying out due to lack of reproductive success...
Alien idea yes, but still pathetic. I'd rather deal with the old speculation that the two species naturally war like... well... nature usually does. Nature is chaotic as hell and having two species "peacefully merge over a really long time because that's the easiest idea I could come up with" just... doesn't fit.
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einharjar
I hear you on every thing here... Ragnorok and I were talking about that last night.
For me, I'm just not sure how you can make the Protoss lore still match that of the SC1 manual anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einharjar
This is a neat idea but it throws the whole Cycle thing into such a catastrophic lore failure it's unreal. Instead of making things more consistent, she makes things even LESS consistent. Now they have to describe that very scenario to make sense. Now the purity of form and purity of essence needs a major over haul. Will these forms even stay as those creatures evolve? And how does this even make sense to begin with when the Zerg's prior history even before the Overmind was predatory assimilation. Not only that but the Protoss are dying out due to lack of reproductive success...
Alien idea yes, but still pathetic. I'd rather deal with the old speculation that the two species naturally war like... well... nature usually does. Nature is chaotic as hell and having two species "peacefully merge over a really long time because that's the easiest idea I could come up with" just... doesn't fit.
This is the problem of the forms. When it comes to evolution, form and essence both have to change. Sometimes this change is a good thing, other times it's a bad thing. Sometimes there's a huge change, other times it's so small you can barely even notice.
And it's not like the Protoss are COMPLETELY stuck in a time bubble where they don't evolve AT ALL. You can argue that the Dark Templar Saga books weren't good because they contradicted the SC1 manual, but those books showed that Protoss society and civilization can also evolve, but only when it suits their needs.
You'd think this would present problems to the Xel'Naga in that it's possible by the time the Zerg and Protoss meet (according to their original plan), both species had evolved to the point where the merging won't work anymore to create a new generation of Xel'Naga...
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
Unless Amon cannot control the swarm HIMSELF and needs the hybrids to, which to me seems unlikely.
I still don't see why he would need to since he can create the Hybrids secretly and use them to kill the Protoss easily bypassing the need for the Zerg altogether. Without the Overmind, which Ein proposes was no use to Amon and which he didn't care if it died but preferred that it did, the Zerg are even more useless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
So maybe the Overmind expected her to eventually leave Char and go after them or something, it was never clear for that.
Yeah, you're not getting my point that the Overmind did not "leave" Kerrigan in safety nor "force" her to stay there for safety either. The Sc2 retcon hinges on the Overmind on "leaving/forcing Kerrigan on Char for her safety" to explain the non-existent plot-hole of Kerrigan not joining the Overmind on Aiur.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
You don't get it, Turalyon. Duran helped her get more power because by the beginning of BW, her psionic power level was still INSUFFICIENT to revive Amon right away.That could be why he helped her, so that once she WAS finally blasted by the artifact, the hybrids would reap the max benefit.
It's no wonder I don't get it because none of this was anywhere near implicit with what we had to go on from Sc1/BW alone. That last sentence is moot because it's just speculation based on a fact that was not even made tacit in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
Besides, if you recall from the Hand of Darkness and Phantoms of the Void mission, Duran/Narud was certainly surprised that Kerrigan made it so far, indicating that he too didn't think she was capable of pulling this off.
Yes, well, you've just poked another hole in Ein's theory. I'm running off Ein's assumption that Duran is aware of a "prophetic threat". You'll have to take that up with him... :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
You forget that Duran wasn't on Ulaan when Zeratul uncovered the prophecy. It's possible that maybe because of what happened to Raszagal, Duran didn't expect Zeratul to help Kerrigan. Hell, for all we know, when she fought him at the end of Phantoms of the Void, Duran might not have even known that the new infestation was a primal infestation.
Once again, I'm pointing out an issue of Ein's theory in that Duran and/or Amon are aware of some prophetic threat to their scheme.
Duran, at the least, knows the artifact was used for its proper purpose by the end of WoL and should be expected to know its full effects given he's the hidden instigator. If Kerrigan was still under the influence of Amon prior to the artifacts activation (which negates Ein's supposition that the Overmind killed itself to free kerrigan because by saying she's still under Amon's influence even after that, the Overmind suicide theory is bunk!) as Ein mentions, Duran just ruined the safety net of her still being enthralled by Amon. He should have known this was a stupid move, especially when Ein supposes that Duran is also aware of a "prophetic" threat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
I'm thinking of HoTS when Ishza tells Kerrigan "you were preparing us to fight a great battle" but Kerrigan can't remember what.
Yeah, but we only knew that in HotS after the fact. It's kinda like most retcons, it's trying to be self-justifying without giving details. Who knows, maybe she was preparing a battle against the rest of the Terrans and Protoss and then shifted priority to this "threat" before realising she couldn't do it after finding more info on the situation and then got all depressed just in time for her appearance in WoL, all the while telling none of the Queens about it. *Shrugs*
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I still don't see why he would need to since he can create the Hybrids secretly and use them to kill the Protoss easily bypassing the need for the Zerg altogether. Without the Overmind, which Ein proposes was no use to Amon and which he didn't care if it died but preferred that it did, the Zerg are even more useless.
I'm more curious if Amon actually created a single hybrid BY HIMSELF before he passed away, or if all the hybrids had been done by Duran/Narud.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Yeah, you're not getting my point that the Overmind did not "leave" Kerrigan in safety nor "force" her to stay there for safety either. The Sc2 retcon hinges on the Overmind on "leaving/forcing Kerrigan on Char for her safety" to explain the non-existent plot-hole of Kerrigan not joining the Overmind on Aiur.
Well then, what do you think would have happened after the Aiur invasion? What would the Overmind had done if it actually WON? Maybe it also left Kerrigan on Char because it did not want her to share in the power it would gain.
It's certainly be a better answer than just "it left her on Char in the event it failed and was killed."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
It's no wonder I don't get it because none of this was anywhere near implicit with what we had to go on from Sc1/BW alone. That last sentence is moot because it's just speculation based on a fact that was not even made tacit in the first place.
Of course not, because Blizzard didn't THINK OF THAT at that time. That's why they tried to increase Kerrigan's power, so that if you raise this Q at a Q and A panel, they would say her psionic energy wasn't enough during the BW, hence why Duran had to wait.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Yes, well, you've just poked another hole in Ein's theory. I'm running off Ein's assumption that Duran is aware of a "prophetic threat". You'll have to take that up with him...
I agree that Duran knew Kerrigan was a prophetic threat, this is why even in Flashpoint he wanted to study her, despite the deinfestation. But I believe Duran only felt Kerrigan would be a very MINOR threat after the deinfestation because Raynor would never allow her to go back to the Zerg. Therefore, she'd have no way to reinfest herself again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Once again, I'm pointing out an issue of Ein's theory in that Duran and/or Amon are aware of some prophetic threat to their scheme.
Not so much for Amon, since he had only been recently revived. Besides, if Amon could see into the future like that, he would have seen the Overmind would ultimately do something to defy him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Duran, at the least, knows the artifact was used for its proper purpose by the end of WoL and should be expected to know its full effects given he's the hidden instigator. If Kerrigan was still under the influence of Amon prior to the artifacts activation (which negates Ein's supposition that the Overmind killed itself to free kerrigan because by saying she's still under Amon's influence even after that, the Overmind suicide theory is bunk!) as Ein mentions, Duran just ruined the safety net of her still being enthralled by Amon. He should have known this was a stupid move, especially when Ein supposes that Duran is also aware of a "prophetic" threat.
No, blasting her with the artifact isn't a stupid move because Duran did not expect a reinfestation. Remember, since he was at Kerrigan's side during the BW, he would have known of Kerrigan's feelings for Raynor, even with Amon's influence. Therefore, he must have felt that with the deinfestation, Raynor would never allow her to even go back to the Zerg, let alone reinfest herself.
Thus the one thing he didn't factor in wasn't Raynor or Kerrigan, it was Zeratul. Remember, although leading the Zerg for revenge on Mengsk for killing Raynor, Kerrigan wasn't thinking of reinfestation at all. It was only when Zeratul told her that Zerus would have the power to allow her to take her revenge that she agreed to go there.
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I still don't see why he would need to since he can create the Hybrids secretly and use them to kill the Protoss easily bypassing the need for the Zerg altogether. Without the Overmind, which Ein proposes was no use to Amon and which he didn't care if it died but preferred that it did, the Zerg are even more useless.
The Overmind WAS of use. It was the unifier of the species. What I was trying to get across in my theory was that Amon bumped heads with his brethren and forced the Protoss over exposure, causing their ego to blow up and force his kind to leave them early. He then uses that failure as reasoning to create a creature that forcfully unifies the Zerg to prevent that same mistake. He needs the Overmind to control the whole Swarm, and he succeeds. He only uses the Overmind as a Steering wheel. By the time it reaches Auir and Effs up the Protoss, it's role of becomming a living batter ram is complete. The Overmind was only there to lead the Zerg as a whole to their required destination: the Protoss's door step.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Yeah, you're not getting my point that the Overmind did not "leave" Kerrigan in safety nor "force" her to stay there for safety either. The Sc2 retcon hinges on the Overmind on "leaving/forcing Kerrigan on Char for her safety" to explain the non-existent plot-hole of Kerrigan not joining the Overmind on Aiur.
You're right here. However, the rectons whole idea of the Overmind purposely leaving Kerrigan behind solves that plot hole. It makes many more but this is one of those in SC1 that gets explained. The interlude between the Char missions and the Auir missions explains how she's continues to hunt for Zeratul and Tassadar on Char, mean while the Overmind leaves for Auir. Sounds premature. So the whole idea that the Overmind left her on Char, as if abandonment or something then makes sense if it was trying to purposely kill itself like Amon wanted (if he did want this). The Overmind lets Amon get what he want's, but also what it wants too. Kerrigan is left safe, in a position to immediately begin supplanting Cerebrates. The Overmind took 3 with him and they all die, leaving the Swarm easy pickings for the Brood Wars. It get's what it wants. It dies, taking it's corruption with it. 3 more Cerebrates DIE, taking their corruption with them. Kerrigan is all that's left at the end of the Brood Wars only she has was purposefully left with her Spirit intact. If not for her depressive mood in WoL (which was entirely out've character and unlike her) it was MORE than possible that Kerrigan could've found out the secrets herself. According to WoL, she had. During those 4 years off, her and Zeratul both were Prophecy hunting. So she was finding out her place in things; she was just "hopeless" about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
It's no wonder I don't get it because none of this was anywhere near implicit with what we had to go on from Sc1/BW alone. That last sentence is moot because it's just speculation based on a fact that was not even made tacit in the first place.
I agree with you here. It is still debatable that this is even why Duran stuck around. My theory is that he was watching her, manipulating her to keep her focused on being a Bitch rather than a leader of the Swarm and not doing Zerg focused things. I don't know. In SC1, Duran's experiments seemed directly linked to Duran's exposure to Kerrigan; like he studied her or something. However that just does seem the case now. The whole "help her get powerful" doesn't make sense either because the Amerigo mission was her unlocking herself. No need for Duran then. Plus the whole slaughter of countless Protoss should've provided all of the Psionics needed for whatever reason, more than any Class 12 Psionic could ever achieve. Hell if this was the case, then why not K.O. Ulrezaj and recycle his Energy. That guy is WAAAY above Kerrigan in psionic prowess. In the end, we don't really know how Amon will be resurrected. That has yet to be exposed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Yes, well, you've just poked another hole in Ein's theory. I'm running off Ein's assumption that Duran is aware of a "prophetic threat". You'll have to take that up with him... :D
Duran was surprised because Kerrigan isn't supposed to win against them and yet, there she is. Still persisting... what's the confusing? I mean I know this prophecy crap is just that; crap... but still it's very simplistic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Once again, I'm pointing out an issue of Ein's theory in that Duran and/or Amon are aware of some prophetic threat to their scheme.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Duran, at the least, knows the artifact was used for its proper purpose by the end of WoL and should be expected to know its full effects given he's the hidden instigator. If Kerrigan was still under the influence of Amon prior to the artifacts activation (which negates Ein's supposition that the Overmind killed itself to free kerrigan because by saying she's still under Amon's influence even after that, the Overmind suicide theory is bunk!) as Ein mentions, Duran just ruined the safety net of her still being enthralled by Amon. He should have known this was a stupid move, especially when Ein supposes that Duran is also aware of a "prophetic" threat.
Amon didn't get along with his own kind and supposedly, the Xel'naga made the Prophecies and locked them on Ulaan. The problem is, that info was only noted at a QnA panel, so we have yet to see that actually become official literature with the exception of what we saw in WoL kind'a referming it. The important note from the QnA is that the Xel'naga didn't like him and they supposedly write a blackmail note on Ulaan calling him out on his crap. These prophecies have nothing to do with victory, but in fact they predictions of Amon's success. If they (Amon and Duran) don't see how they can succeed, prophecy or not? I don't know what else to say... I hope you get what I'm saying here. The Prophecy is more like a tattle-tale for any who looks at it "If this douche bag is set free, this is his plan. Don't elect him as president, plox. kthnxbie". So it's not just assuming that Duran and Amon know the Prophecy, the Prophecy is literally their plan of action... meaning they basically created the bloody scriptures and their brothers blabbed their ideas on some slabs of rock to let their secrets out...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Yeah, but we only knew that in HotS after the fact. It's kinda like most retcons, it's trying to be self-justifying without giving details. Who knows, maybe she was preparing a battle against the rest of the Terrans and Protoss and then shifted priority to this "threat" before realising she couldn't do it after finding more info on the situation and then got all depressed just in time for her appearance in WoL, all the while telling none of the Queens about it. *Shrugs*
I had no problems connecting the HotS POV with WoL POV for Kerrigan. Kerrigan is clearly hopeless, but still intending to go out with a bang in WoL when she explains how she's already aware of the Prophecies on Ulaan. It's a weak connection; but we've gotta' take what we can get from Blizz these days...
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einharjar
I had no problems connecting the HotS POV with WoL POV for Kerrigan. Kerrigan is clearly hopeless, but still intending to go out with a bang in WoL when she explains how she's already aware of the Prophecies on Ulaan. It's a weak connection; but we've gotta' take what we can get from Blizz these days...
And in retrospect you can still consider that her mentality by the end of HotS. The swarm can't beat Amon, but she has no allies beyond the swarm anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einharjar
Amon didn't get along with his own kind and supposedly, the Xel'naga made the Prophecies and locked them on Ulaan. The problem is, that info was only noted at a QnA panel, so we have yet to see that actually become official literature with the exception of what we saw in WoL kind'a referming it. The important note from the QnA is that the Xel'naga didn't like him and they supposedly write a blackmail note on Ulaan calling him out on his crap. These prophecies have nothing to do with victory, but in fact they predictions of Amon's success. If they (Amon and Duran) don't see how they can succeed, prophecy or not? I don't know what else to say... I hope you get what I'm saying here. The Prophecy is more like a tattle-tale for any who looks at it "If this douche bag is set free, this is his plan. Don't elect him as president, plox. kthnxbie". So it's not just assuming that Duran and Amon know the Prophecy, the Prophecy is literally their plan of action... meaning they basically created the bloody scriptures and their brothers blabbed their ideas on some slabs of rock to let their secrets out...
Are you sure they wrote the prophecy BEFORE everything went to hell? I would have expected that after the Zerg corruption, Amon used it to kill his kind, but some were able to escape long enough to carve out the prophecy on Ulaan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einharjar
Duran was surprised because Kerrigan isn't supposed to win against them and yet, there she is. Still persisting... what's the confusing? I mean I know this prophecy crap is just that; crap... but still it's very simplistic.
This is just another frustration of we should get to know just WHAT Duran is, so we can tell just what powers Amon gave him and all that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einharjar
The whole "help her get powerful" doesn't make sense either because the Amerigo mission was her unlocking herself. No need for Duran then. Plus the whole slaughter of countless Protoss should've provided all of the Psionics needed for whatever reason, more than any Class 12 Psionic could ever achieve. Hell if this was the case, then why not K.O. Ulrezaj and recycle his Energy. That guy is WAAAY above Kerrigan in psionic prowess. In the end, we don't really know how Amon will be resurrected. That has yet to be exposed.
That's hard to say. Kerrigan's psionics were growing in power after the Amerigo, but perhaps they weren't growing at a fast enough rate to satisfy Duran, hence the need to help her get more.
As for KOing Ulrezaj, it's possible that as one of his agents, Amon had other plans for him or something. Besides, you can't fully say that he's WAY above Kerrigan in psionic powers because the two of them never faced each other in combat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einharjar
During those 4 years off, her and Zeratul both were Prophecy hunting. So she was finding out her place in things; she was just "hopeless" about it.
Well that hopelessness is for a good reason. After what happened in the BW, she knows no one will listen to her anymore. She has no more allies, and Amon is too powerful to beat with the swarm alone. Thus it's likely that Kerrigan discovered his threat during those 4 years, and with that, came the realization that by not making long term allies in the BW, it's now come back to bite her.
As for the Overmind's actions that you explained, it makes sense. I was always curious if Duran had kept a close eye on the Overmind to make sure it didn't try any defiance tricks or anything like that, hence why the Overmind had to make it seem like it was still 100% loyal.
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
I'm more curious if Amon actually created a single hybrid BY HIMSELF before he passed away, or if all the hybrids had been done by Duran/Narud.
Anything can happen since it hasn't been explicitly said it can't. Even then, nothing's set in stone nor can be taken for granted. This is where Blizz is at in terms of writing now - the fictional universe does not feel natural or behave in a way that will determine itself but what the writers dictate what it will be at any given time. It doesn't matter either way if the Hybrid was created then or later, you can justify it both ways with retcon after retcon as required later on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
Well then, what do you think would have happened after the Aiur invasion? What would the Overmind had done if it actually WON? Maybe it also left Kerrigan on Char because it did not want her to share in the power it would gain.
It's certainly be a better answer than just "it left her on Char in the event it failed and was killed."
There's no use asking all those questions you're asking because they are irrelevent to the matter at hand and any answers given are purely conjecture from that point. As mentioned previously, the question of why the Overmind left Kerrigan on Char did not warrant a question at all because the answer was already self-evident at the time (ie: to kill the most dangerous and newest element of the Protoss that actually posed the biggest threat against the Zerg).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
Of course not, because Blizzard didn't THINK OF THAT at that time. That's why they tried to increase Kerrigan's power, so that if you raise this Q at a Q and A panel, they would say her psionic energy wasn't enough during the BW, hence why Duran had to wait.
That's right, you've just correctly identified it as an ass-pull because it came out of nowhere. And the audience is to blame for calling out what is clearly a cop-out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
I agree that Duran knew Kerrigan was a prophetic threat, this is why even in Flashpoint he wanted to study her, despite the deinfestation. But I believe Duran only felt Kerrigan would be a very MINOR threat after the deinfestation because Raynor would never allow her to go back to the Zerg. Therefore, she'd have no way to reinfest herself again.
Once again, you're running along with implicit knowledge that is nowhere near hinted at the time. If Kerrigan was wholly under Amon's influence before the deinfestation (as Ein suggests), she was NO threat to them at all. With the deinfestation she has now become a potential threat (major or minor) because there are no guarantees now that she has her "free will" back. He's actually upgraded her potential threat level by deinfesting her and given that he'd also be aware of the prophetic threat, he should be more paranoid and proactive at trying to stop loose ends from occurring. If there were any hint of her being the prophetic threat whilst originally infested, he would've killed her ages ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
Besides, if Amon could see into the future like that, he would have seen the Overmind would ultimately do something to defy him.
But Amon does know. He himself states that Kerrigan was the only thing that could stop him in the Overmind's vision. So unless you're prepared to debunk that Overmind vision as having no prophetic value at all, as in it made up that speech about Amon (which itself is a pitfall in that it cements WoL as being totally devoid anything of value in terms of plot progression), there's not much more can be said. See how prophecies are just utter junk and crutches to a poor story?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
No, blasting her with the artifact isn't a stupid move because Duran did not expect a reinfestation. Remember, since he was at Kerrigan's side during the BW, he would have known of Kerrigan's feelings for Raynor, even with Amon's influence. Therefore, he must have felt that with the deinfestation, Raynor would never allow her to even go back to the Zerg, let alone reinfest herself.
Why would Kerrigan tell Duran about her feelings for Raynor and when did this happen if at all? The lay Sc fan know next to nothing of this either way. As mentioned above, it's a stupid move because it leaves a loose end for the prophetic threat to still occur. If Duran had ever given credence in the idea of a prophetic threat (as Ein suggests), he would have made doubly sure that Kerrigan was dead no matter what.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einharjar
The Overmind WAS of use. It was the unifier of the species. What I was trying to get across in my theory was that Amon bumped heads with his brethren and forced the Protoss over exposure, causing their ego to blow up and force his kind to leave them early. He then uses that failure as reasoning to create a creature that forcfully unifies the Zerg to prevent that same mistake. He needs the Overmind to control the whole Swarm, and he succeeds. He only uses the Overmind as a Steering wheel. By the time it reaches Auir and Effs up the Protoss, it's role of becomming a living batter ram is complete. The Overmind was only there to lead the Zerg as a whole to their required destination: the Protoss's door step.
So Amon creates a steering well for a vehicle that has the capacity to completely destroy the thing it actually needs most to revive itself. Wonderful plan. :rolleyes:
He could have just made them all docile on Zerus and then slowly pick and take samples from the isolated Protoss and Zerg species at a whim to slowly build up his secret army of Hybrids. Without either of the two races knowing, he can build them up to a point where he could each of them in turn and methodically guarantee reviving himself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einharjar
However, the rectons whole idea of the Overmind purposely leaving Kerrigan behind solves that plot hole. It makes many more but this is one of those in SC1 that gets explained.
But my point is that there was no plot hole to begin with and, as such, that the retcon is unnecessary whatsoever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einharjar
The interlude between the Char missions and the Auir missions explains how she's continues to hunt for Zeratul and Tassadar on Char, mean while the Overmind leaves for Auir. Sounds premature.
Not really. The Overmind is striking while the "iron is still hot". It's covering it's bases by using Kerrigan (his greatest agent in which he has absolute confidence) to kill the Dark Templar and prevent a dangerous flanking attack from them whilst it proceeds to nuke their homeworld knowing from Zeratul that his kind are the only real threat and that Aiur harbors no such threats. Had the Overmind won, it would've been lauded as a brilliant tactical move. Go figure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einharjar
I agree with you here. It is still debatable that this is even why Duran stuck around. My theory is that he was watching her, manipulating her to keep her focused on being a Bitch rather than a leader of the Swarm and not doing Zerg focused things. I don't know. In SC1, Duran's experiments seemed directly linked to Duran's exposure to Kerrigan; like he studied her or something. However that just does seem the case now. The whole "help her get powerful" doesn't make sense either because the Amerigo mission was her unlocking herself. No need for Duran then. Plus the whole slaughter of countless Protoss should've provided all of the Psionics needed for whatever reason, more than any Class 12 Psionic could ever achieve. Hell if this was the case, then why not K.O. Ulrezaj and recycle his Energy. That guy is WAAAY above Kerrigan in psionic prowess. In the end, we don't really know how Amon will be resurrected. That has yet to be exposed.
Yeah, it's funny how all these retcons have done nothing but make less sense of everything when they're supposed to be doing the opposite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einharjar
Duran was surprised because Kerrigan isn't supposed to win against them and yet, there she is. Still persisting... what's the confusing?
If I was Duran and knew Kerrigan was reportedly the "prophetic threat", I would never be surprised at what she ends up capable of doing to harm my agenda nor underestimate her in anyway because, you know, she was prophesied to do such a thing afterall.... I would try my darndest to kill her straight-away to try and thwart that prophecy (incidentally, just like what the "heroes" in Sc2 are doing right now) - yet he does not even make the attempt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einharjar
Amon didn't get along with his own kind and supposedly, the Xel'naga made the Prophecies and locked them on Ulaan. The problem is, that info was only noted at a QnA panel, so we have yet to see that actually become official literature with the exception of what we saw in WoL kind'a referming it. The important note from the QnA is that the Xel'naga didn't like him and they supposedly write a blackmail note on Ulaan calling him out on his crap. These prophecies have nothing to do with victory, but in fact they predictions of Amon's success. If they (Amon and Duran) don't see how they can succeed, prophecy or not? I don't know what else to say... I hope you get what I'm saying here. The Prophecy is more like a tattle-tale for any who looks at it "If this douche bag is set free, this is his plan. Don't elect him as president, plox. kthnxbie". So it's not just assuming that Duran and Amon know the Prophecy, the Prophecy is literally their plan of action... meaning they basically created the bloody scriptures and their brothers blabbed their ideas on some slabs of rock to let their secrets out...
Not sure how this relates/is in response to my quote. :confused:
Either way, in short, you're saying the prophecies are not prophecies but predictions. They are two different things. Besides, the Ulaan prophecy is different from the prophetic dream that the Overmind has of Amon revealing his own weakness. Is that supposed to be taken as a prediction as well? Funny, how everything else to do with prophecy is disregarded as being changeable whilst this information about Kerrigan appears not to be. In such a case, one can only hope Kerrigan has no bearing on Amon's death to render the entire nature of prophecy in Sc as being bunk.
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Anything can happen since it hasn't been explicitly said it can't. Even then, nothing's set in stone nor can be taken for granted. This is where Blizz is at in terms of writing now - the fictional universe does not feel natural or behave in a way that will determine itself but what the writers dictate what it will be at any given time. It doesn't matter either way if the Hybrid was created then or later, you can justify it both ways with retcon after retcon as required later on.
And this is exactly the problem with them keeping everything vague. It's to make a backdoor for themselves so they can eventually tell the fans, "Ah, but that's not the EXACT thing we said, remember?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
There's no use asking all those questions you're asking because they are irrelevent to the matter at hand and any answers given are purely conjecture from that point. As mentioned previously, the question of why the Overmind left Kerrigan on Char did not warrant a question at all because the answer was already self-evident at the time (ie: to kill the most dangerous and newest element of the Protoss that actually posed the biggest threat against the Zerg).
If it was to deal with the biggest threat of the Zerg, the Overmind should have first attacked Shakuras, not Aiur. Remember, due to the brief mind touch with Zeratul, the Overmind should have known the location of Shakuras as well. If that planet is full of Dark Templar, THEY are the bigger threat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
That's right, you've just correctly identified it as an ass-pull because it came out of nowhere. And the audience is to blame for calling out what is clearly a cop-out?
No, I'm saying it's only a POSSIBILITY. Obviously Blizzard wasn't thinking that far, so maybe that's an answer they'd tell the fans if that Q was raised.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Once again, you're running along with implicit knowledge that is nowhere near hinted at the time. If Kerrigan was wholly under Amon's influence before the deinfestation (as Ein suggests), she was NO threat to them at all. With the deinfestation she has now become a potential threat (major or minor) because there are no guarantees now that she has her "free will" back. He's actually upgraded her potential threat level by deinfesting her and given that he'd also be aware of the prophetic threat, he should be more paranoid and proactive at trying to stop loose ends from occurring. If there were any hint of her being the prophetic threat whilst originally infested, he would've killed her ages ago.
But the fact remains you DON'T KNOW what Kerrigan was planning in amassing the Zerg on Char for so long. All Izsha said was preparing for a great war. We saw Kerrigan was pessmistic about it, but her mood could have changed if things turned out well. It's entirely possible that if the swarm HAD assimilated the terrans and Protoss, it might have been strong enough to beat Amon. If that happened, then even under the influence, Kerrigan would have remained a threat to him. If that was the case, then it could explain why Duran had to choose the deinfestation option to reduce her power and fracture the swarm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
But Amon does know. He himself states that Kerrigan was the only thing that could stop him in the Overmind's vision. So unless you're prepared to debunk that Overmind vision as having no prophetic value at all, as in it made up that speech about Amon (which itself is a pitfall in that it cements WoL as being totally devoid anything of value in terms of plot progression), there's not much more can be said. See how prophecies are just utter junk and crutches to a poor story?
No, no, you don't understand. That's only what we saw in the Overmind's vision of the future. It's possible that by the time he passed away, he didn't know. Maybe even JUST as he was revived, he didn't know. It's possible that many only years after his revival, did he see the threat Kerrigan posed, but by then the Protoss already had a plan in mind to kill her, and succeeded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Why would Kerrigan tell Duran about her feelings for Raynor and when did this happen if at all? The lay Sc fan know next to nothing of this either way. As mentioned above, it's a stupid move because it leaves a loose end for the prophetic threat to still occur. If Duran had ever given credence in the idea of a prophetic threat (as Ein suggests), he would have made doubly sure that Kerrigan was dead no matter what.
Likely, unless Duran had ulterior motives of his own after Amon was revived. For example, it's possible that Duran wasn't loyal to Amon at all, and after his revival, wanted all the power for himself. Therefore, he wanted Amon revived as quickly as possible so he could eventually steal his master's power. If that's the case, it could explain why he didn't kill Kerrigan and all that.
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
On the Prophecy issue...
The Prophecies are interpreted as prophecies by the Protoss simply because they were written by their Gods I assume; you know to make things feel overly fantasized and the Protoss get reduced to forgetful peons... This is just poor writing by forcing this whole "Prophetic Doomsday Fantasy" on an other wise acceptable Sci Fi universe.
The Prophecies are not "Prophecies", they are predictions. Just like the Overmind's vision. It's not a "fate bound event", it's a PLAUSIBLE OUT COME IF KERRIGAN DIES... get it? So yes, even the Overmind's vision is simply a prediction. Listen to it's script please. It's not a "this is going to happen, too bad. YOLO..."
Not even Zeratul is saying "Yup, can't change shit. We're doomed".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD5KmLJ3pYc
"This is our fate, SHOULD KERRIGAN DIE"... sets the tone for what I'm getting at here.
Same with the Ulaan Prophecies. They simply spell out that Amon is an Ass Hole and if he get's his way? He wins! Simple as that.
The only reason why Zamara pushes Zeratul to start spreading the word is because it's merely a prediction and she believes it's outcome is alterable. Otherwise, what's the point? Blizzard self destructing SC entirely in a blaze of trolling by letting us buy a trilogy in which the end was spelled out to us as far back as the DT saga and so the whole series is worthless? *end of LotV = Amon "HAHA, You played an entire triligy just to find out that you can't change prophecies... noobs... thanks for the monies! XOXO - Blizz" ... God I hope we're joking...
Also, we do not know when the Ulaan prophecies were written. We know by whom, other Xel'naga... but if you read my post you'd of noticed that I said "the problem is, that info was only noted at a QnA panel, so we have yet to see that actually become official literature with the exception of what we saw in WoL kind'a referring to it". Yeah... I hate it when they do that...
The prophecy's origins are new lore, Developed on the Spot most likely at that stupid Panel. That's all we have. Take it or leave it.
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einharjar
On the Prophecy issue...
The Prophecies are interpreted as prophecies by the Protoss simply because they were written by their Gods I assume; you know to make things feel overly fantasized and the Protoss get reduced to forgetful peons... This is just poor writing by forcing this whole "Prophetic Doomsday Fantasy" on an other wise acceptable Sci Fi universe.
The Prophecies are not "Prophecies", they are predictions. Just like the Overmind's vision. It's not a "fate bound event", it's a PLAUSABLE OUT COME IF KERRIGAN DIES... get it? So yes, even the Overmind's vision is simply a prediction. Listen to it's script please. It's not a "this is going to happen, too bad. YOLO..."
Not even Zeratul is saying "Yup, can't change shit. We're doomed".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD5KmLJ3pYc
"This is our fate, SHOULD KERRIGAN DIE"... sets the tone for what I'm getting at here.
Same with the Ulaan Prophecies. They simply spell out that Amon is an Ass Hole and if he get's his way? He wins! Simple as that.
The only reason why Zamara pushes Zeratul to start spreading the word is because it's merely a prediction and she believes it's outcome is alterable. Otherwise, what's the point? Blizzard self destructing SC entirely in a blaze of trolling by letting us buy a triligy in which the end was spelled out to us as far back as the DT saga and so the whole series is worthless? *end of LotV = Amon "HAHA, You played an entire triligy just to find out that you can't change prophecies... noobs... thanks for the monies! XOXO - Blizz" ... God I hope we're joking...
Also, we do not know when the Ulaan prophecies were written. We know by whom, other Xel'naga... but if you read my post you'd of noticed that I said "
the problem is, that info was only noted at a QnA panel, so we have yet to see that actually become official literature with the exception of what we saw in WoL kind'a referring to it". Yeah... I hate it when they do that...
The prophecy's origins are new lore, Developed on the Spot most likely at that stupid Panel. That's all we have. Take it or leave it.
Thanks, Ein. That's the problem Zeratul will have to face to his people. They would just tell him that the vision is merely what the Overmind BELIEVES will happen if Kerrigan is killed. That's considered anecdotal evidence, not CONCRETE evidence.
All Zeratul can do is try to convince them it's too risky to chance it.
The part of WHEN it's written frustrates me. We can't even argue "it was written millions of years ago" because the no one has set foot on the planet for millions of years.
I don't buy that. Given the powers of the Xel'Naga, I'm almost 100% certain they can carve out writings on shrines without even setting foot on the planet AT ALL.
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
If it was to deal with the biggest threat of the Zerg, the Overmind should have first attacked Shakuras, not Aiur. Remember, due to the brief mind touch with Zeratul, the Overmind should have known the location of Shakuras as well. If that planet is full of Dark Templar, THEY are the bigger threat.
No, attacking Shakuras would be tantamount to suicide and would have fit better with Ein's supposition that the Overmind wanted to commit suicide than attacking Aiur. After knowing that it has a weakness exploited by this new threat and that it could run away from it to let it's secret weapon take care of them, the Overmind is not going to run into an actual hornet's nest of these newfound threats without its secret weapon. Instead, it's going to exploit a weakness in the Protoss - by attacking Aiur instead. Which, incidentally, it did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
Obviously Blizzard wasn't thinking that far, so maybe that's an answer they'd tell the fans if that Q was raised.
Doesn't make it any less an ass-pull, I'm afraid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
But the fact remains you DON'T KNOW what Kerrigan was planning in amassing the Zerg on Char for so long. All Izsha said was preparing for a great war. We saw Kerrigan was pessmistic about it, but her mood could have changed if things turned out well. It's entirely possible that if the swarm HAD assimilated the terrans and Protoss, it might have been strong enough to beat Amon. If that happened, then even under the influence, Kerrigan would have remained a threat to him. If that was the case, then it could explain why Duran had to choose the deinfestation option to reduce her power and fracture the swarm.
I see where you are coming from but you are not approaching it from Ein's assertion that Kerrigan is still under Amon's influence pre-deinfestation, which is where my points have attempted to co-opt. The amassing of Zerg forces could all be due to serve Amon's goal because she is still under his influence. Her depression would be akin to the Overmind raging in the prison of his mind because she knows she can't do anything to prevent it. There's nothing to say that she's metaphysically free in WoL (this sounds familiar but in reverse fashion to the Overmind retcon....) prior to her deinfestation. By deinfesting Kerrigan and fracturing the Zerg, thereby freeing her from Amon's influence, Duran has shot himself in the foot because he lost the one thing that was still under control and potentially begun a self-fulfilling prophecy. So you're right, we don't know anything but going by Ein's assumptions, the story is not "fixed" in his version either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
No, no, you don't understand. That's only what we saw in the Overmind's vision of the future. It's possible that by the time he passed away, he didn't know. Maybe even JUST as he was revived, he didn't know. It's possible that many only years after his revival, did he see the threat Kerrigan posed, but by then the Protoss already had a plan in mind to kill her, and succeeded.
You're flip-flopping to suit your argument as required. It's either a prophecy in the truest sense of the word and that it has some merit to the in-universe characters or it isn't and it doesn't. It can't be both or bits of both here and there as you please because that just leads to confusion because "face value" becomes meaningless and no-one knowing what to believe, even when something is later revealed to be truth (until it's not).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
Likely, unless Duran had ulterior motives of his own after Amon was revived. For example, it's possible that Duran wasn't loyal to Amon at all, and after his revival, wanted all the power for himself. Therefore, he wanted Amon revived as quickly as possible so he could eventually steal his master's power. If that's the case, it could explain why he didn't kill Kerrigan and all that.
Great, you can always tell when writers struggle when they constantly resort to the "expansion pack past" trope to try and the plug the snowballing plot-holes generated from retroactive continuity. It never ends. :rolleyes:
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
No, attacking Shakuras would be tantamount to suicide and would have fit better with Ein's supposition that the Overmind wanted to commit suicide than attacking Aiur. After knowing that it has a weakness exploited by this new threat and that it could run away from it to let it's secret weapon take care of them, the Overmind is not going to run into an actual hornet's nest of these newfound threats without its secret weapon. Instead, it's going to exploit a weakness in the Protoss - by attacking Aiur instead. Which, incidentally, it did.
Then what do you think would have happened if the Overmind actually WON on Aiur?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Doesn't make it any less an ass-pull, I'm afraid.
I know you don't like the answer I gave. I don't either, but it's all I can come up with for what Blizzard may reply in if the Q is raised.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I see where you are coming from but you are not approaching it from Ein's assertion that Kerrigan is still under Amon's influence pre-deinfestation, which is where my points have attempted to co-opt. The amassing of Zerg forces could all be due to serve Amon's goal because she is still under his influence. Her depression would be akin to the Overmind raging in the prison of his mind because she knows she can't do anything to prevent it. There's nothing to say that she's metaphysically free in WoL (this sounds familiar but in reverse fashion to the Overmind retcon....) prior to her deinfestation. By deinfesting Kerrigan and fracturing the Zerg, thereby freeing her from Amon's influence, Duran has shot himself in the foot because he lost the one thing that was still under control and potentially begun a self-fulfilling prophecy. So you're right, we don't know anything but going by Ein's assumptions, the story is not "fixed" in his version either.
Since you told me you never read Flashpoint, there's an important point in there I'm not sure was raised:
A lot of people thought it was Narud who told Valerian of artifact to deinfest Kerrigan and everything. That's actually not true. The REAL person who told Valerian about the artifact was Jake Ramsey, from the Dark Templar Saga trilogy. If you had read Part 3: Twilight, you would have known that Zamara had already told traces of the prophecy to him. It's possible that Jake concluded very quickly that Kerrigan's role was crucial and couldn't be killed. From that book, Jake knew someone had messed with the Xel'Naga cycle, and thus messed with the Zerg as well, so if that's true, perhaps that same "someone" had also messed with infesting Kerrigan.
So from all that, Jake must have known if the infestation could be reversed, that "messing about" might go away, hence the need for the relic. If that's true, perhaps the plan had already been in place, and Narud found out about it too late, which led him with no choice but to improvise and make the most out of the situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Great, you can always tell when writers struggle when they constantly resort to the "expansion pack past" trope to try and the plug the snowballing plot-holes generated from retroactive continuity. It never ends.
This is EXACTLY the drawback when you keep things too vague...
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
No, attacking Shakuras would be tantamount to suicide and would have fit better with Ein's supposition that the Overmind wanted to commit suicide than attacking Aiur. After knowing that it has a weakness exploited by this new threat and that it could run away from it to let it's secret weapon take care of them, the Overmind is not going to run into an actual hornet's nest of these newfound threats without its secret weapon. Instead, it's going to exploit a weakness in the Protoss - by attacking Aiur instead. Which, incidentally, it did.
Yes. Totally yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I see where you are coming from but you are not approaching it from Ein's assertion that Kerrigan is still under Amon's influence pre-deinfestation, which is where my points have attempted to co-opt. The amassing of Zerg forces could all be due to serve Amon's goal because she is still under his influence. Her depression would be akin to the Overmind raging in the prison of his mind because she knows she can't do anything to prevent it. There's nothing to say that she's metaphysically free in WoL (this sounds familiar but in reverse fashion to the Overmind retcon....) prior to her deinfestation. By deinfesting Kerrigan and fracturing the Zerg, thereby freeing her from Amon's influence, Duran has shot himself in the foot because he lost the one thing that was still under control and potentially begun a self-fulfilling prophecy. So you're right, we don't know anything but going by Ein's assumptions, the story is not "fixed" in his version either.
I see no problems with Duran taking his chances and improvising with *a Relic that he didn't even know was available*. That's of the relic is explained in this way. if the Relic was unknown previously but shows up in Valerian's hands thanks to Jake pointing the way, then Nurad has to improvise. He conspires with Mengsk to find a way to Kerrigan. Mengsk knows that Kerri' and Rayray had something for each other, so he suggests another person close to Rayray; Tychus. Tychus follows Jim as a method to get to Kerrigan in order to kill her while trying the double cover plot "I got out and want to spend time with you / Ok, you know I'm working for Mengsk and I'm supposed to kill you". The plot is still stupid thin; I mean placing such a risk on the "Tychus" route? Not to the level of what we'd expect from Mengsk but other than that? Maybe that's what he had to work with.
I really wish there was more to the last scene of WoL than just "We make choices - BOOM". I would've loved to have seen Tychus's character evolve (asking for better writing... a hopeless plea) from the irrational brute that he was to one who realizes Jim has moved on and is forced to pick his "One True Love! *bats eye lashes*" over his best friend who we all know by then is working for Mengsk. Oh, I can dream at least.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
You're flip-flopping to suit your argument as required. It's either a prophecy in the truest sense of the word and that it has some merit to the in-universe characters or it isn't and it doesn't. It can't be both or bits of both here and there as you please because that just leads to confusion because "face value" becomes meaningless and no-one knowing what to believe, even when something is later revealed to be truth (until it's not).
I hoped I cleared things up earlier, Ragnarok. The Prophecy is just a prediction. A calculated outcome. There should be no hopping there. Consider it a strategy. For a good part of the Prophecy, Duran and Amon will already know; it's their game plan - they created the strategy for Amon's take over. However other parts are strategic estimations made by Amon's fellow Xel'naga. It predicts what he can accomplish, but doesn't include everything nor say anything is set in stone.
In effect, I've been thinking of how to meld that whole mess together. I hope to have something on it in the near future.
In other news: I've realized that we've strayed from the intentional topic of debating if the Zerg's genetic prowess was retconned with Abathur's comments about Stukov. I've come to the realization that maybe this "Microscale" comment was refering to manipulation via Psionics at a level that the Zerg, even through SC1 lore, could not achieve. Who's to say that the same manner that the Overmind was achieving to take over the Protoss is also not usable with any other DNA with some rather successful effects.
This would mean that Abathur isn't wrong; Zerg don't possess any Khydarin like instruments to manipulate genetics with; it's all done I'd, physically protein by protein. And while they can create strands of the utmost quality, even to such levels such as Kerrigan's genetics? They cannot make or remake beings purely on Psi alone. This again, requires more information on Psionics... I'm going to sound like a broken record but I'm sure all of us are by now with the "That doesn't make sense, Blizzard" we've chanted for the past 4+ years (or maybe even since 2006).
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einharjar
I see no problems with Duran taking his chances and improvising with *a Relic that he didn't even know was available*. That's of the relic is explained in this way. if the Relic was unknown previously but shows up in Valerian's hands thanks to Jake pointing the way, then Nurad has to improvise. He conspires with Mengsk to find a way to Kerrigan. Mengsk knows that Kerri' and Rayray had something for each other, so he suggests another person close to Rayray; Tychus. Tychus follows Jim as a method to get to Kerrigan in order to kill her while trying the double cover plot "I got out and want to spend time with you / Ok, you know I'm working for Mengsk and I'm supposed to kill you". The plot is still stupid thin; I mean placing such a risk on the "Tychus" route? Not to the level of what we'd expect from Mengsk but other than that? Maybe that's what he had to work with.
I really wish there was more to the last scene of WoL than just "We make choices - BOOM". I would've loved to have seen Tychus's character evolve (asking for better writing... a hopeless plea) from the irrational brute that he was to one who realizes Jim has moved on and is forced to pick his "One True Love! *bats eye lashes*" over his best friend who we all know by then is working for Mengsk. Oh, I can dream at least.
The way I see it, Tychus LET Raynor shoot him. You have to remember that Tychus didn't care about the rebellion or fighting the Zerg. All he cared about was the money, sit at a bar, have some drinks, and call it a night. Mengsk offered him a deal: kill the QoB and he's a free man.
Tychus would see reason in that because the Zerg are interfering with what he wanted. And throughout WoL, he continued to believe there was no way Kerrigan can return to humanity anyways. The way he saw it, if Raynor's story is true, Kerrigan died the moment the Zerg infested her, and that was years ago.
And therefore, even after Valerian told Jim about what the artifact could do, Tychus continued to believe his friend would come to his senses. Yes, he'd be heartbroken, but ultimately he'd see that Kerrigan had died a long time ago.
And then the end of WoL happened where they found Kerrigan returned to human form. At that point, Tychus couldn't do what he was ordered to do because in his POV, the QoB no longer existed. However, Mengsk was still telling him to do it. At that point, it was more about "not giving the villain what he wants." Hence the reason he let Raynor shoot him.
Besides, it's not like Tychus didn't have time. It took Raynor a while before he even turned his head. And if Tychus really WAS concerned only with his survival, he could have shot them both.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einharjar
I hoped I cleared things up earlier, Ragnarok. The Prophecy is just a prediction. A calculated outcome. There should be no hopping there. Consider it a strategy. For a good part of the Prophecy, Duran and Amon will already know; it's their game plan - they created the strategy for Amon's take over. However other parts are strategic estimations made by Amon's fellow Xel'naga. It predicts what he can accomplish, but doesn't include everything nor say anything is set in stone.
In effect, I've been thinking of how to meld that whole mess together. I hope to have something on it in the near future.
Well that's nothing new. In A LOT of prophecies of ANY game, there's always something that has to be left to chance. NO ONE can make a plan that's millions of years old, and expect every detail to turn out exactly as he thought.
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
Then what do you think would have happened if the Overmind actually WON on Aiur?
Under the original concept (not including information from BW or the retcons in the later books and from Sc2), you get a downer ending with the Zerg being ultimate top-dog, eventually assimilating the Protoss and becoming unbeatable by anyone within that sector. Then, the Overmind thinks of what lies beyond the current galaxy on it's never-ending search for perfection. As I said previously, if the Overmind had won, the move would have been thought of as a brilliant tactical maneuver. That it happened to die (through very extenuating circumstances if one were to view the events in Sc1 pragmatically, mind you) does not mean it's move was any less competent nor due to some disguised hitherto unknown motive. The latter is especially egregious because it's an open excuse for endless back-flips and retcon into an eventual indecipherable mess - which Sc2 is rushing head long into.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
Since you told me you never read Flashpoint, there's an important point in there I'm not sure was raised:
A lot of people thought it was Narud who told Valerian of artifact to deinfest Kerrigan and everything. That's actually not true. The REAL person who told Valerian about the artifact was Jake Ramsey, from the Dark Templar Saga trilogy. If you had read Part 3: Twilight, you would have known that Zamara had already told traces of the prophecy to him. It's possible that Jake concluded very quickly that Kerrigan's role was crucial and couldn't be killed. From that book, Jake knew someone had messed with the Xel'Naga cycle, and thus messed with the Zerg as well, so if that's true, perhaps that same "someone" had also messed with infesting Kerrigan.
So from all that, Jake must have known if the infestation could be reversed, that "messing about" might go away, hence the need for the relic. If that's true, perhaps the plan had already been in place, and Narud found out about it too late, which led him with no choice but to improvise and make the most out of the situation.
That's a very scenic route to get to that final supposition. :D
It's not terribly clear or anywhere implicit in any case. I (and a great many others I'd suspect) didn't know I had to even question the tie between Duran's of the artifacts or his knowledge (or lack thereof in this case) about them. Either way, if you're now changing your position to say "Duran had no choice to along with it because he didn't know", he should've been more proactive in hunting Kerrigan down after her deinfestation to make doubly sure she wasn't going to be a problem later on. Duran doesn't seem to be the sort of person that would rest on his laurels especially if he's supposedly believes in a prophetic threat...yet he sits around waiting for Kerrigan to find him and lay the smackdown on him after she liberally takes a detour to power-up before doing so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
This is EXACTLY the drawback when you keep things too vague...
Not really. Something that was initially and intentionally vague is fine on its own. The point was maybe to not give answers originally but to create an aura of mystery/illusion of depth. The drawback is only when you later try to step in and explain it because it will inevitably be unsatisfactory compared to the power of not knowing and that it further detracts from the main throughline of the story. For example, did I really need to know that Darth Vader is just a snot-nosed, whiny brat? Did I really need to know that Zeratul really is a doddering fool? Did I really need to know that Star Control 3 happened? etc.
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
The way I see it, Tychus LET Raynor shoot him. You have to remember that Tychus didn't care about the rebellion or fighting the Zerg. All he cared about was the money, sit at a bar, have some drinks, and call it a night. Mengsk offered him a deal: kill the QoB and he's a free man.
Tychus would see reason in that because the Zerg are interfering with what he wanted. And throughout WoL, he continued to believe there was no way Kerrigan can return to humanity anyways. The way he saw it, if Raynor's story is true, Kerrigan died the moment the Zerg infested her, and that was years ago.
And therefore, even after Valerian told Jim about what the artifact could do, Tychus continued to believe his friend would come to his senses. Yes, he'd be heartbroken, but ultimately he'd see that Kerrigan had died a long time ago.
And then the end of WoL happened where they found Kerrigan returned to human form. At that point, Tychus couldn't do what he was ordered to do because in his POV, the QoB no longer existed. However, Mengsk was still telling him to do it. At that point, it was more about "not giving the villain what he wants." Hence the reason he let Raynor shoot him.
Besides, it's not like Tychus didn't have time. It took Raynor a while before he even turned his head. And if Tychus really WAS concerned only with his survival, he could have shot them both.
That's exactly what I wanted to feel, but never felt it. The part where Tychus was raging in the Hyperion's bar I was hoping was a guilt trip. You can't tell me that guilt trip was because "I have to kill this Zerg queen, nooo! I can't stand it!!". Once the WoL ending happened, there was too little development for him. If his initial objective from the very beginning was to kill Kerrigan, it makes it even worse. If it was changed over time and Tychus starts to get irate from realizing he is being manipulated as much as anyone by Mengsk? ... then okay... but still the guy was stiff as a board when growing as a character.
As to Tychus actually sympathizing with Kerrigan? Doesn't make sense either. He cares for no one, barely cares for Jim in the first place. From Tychus's POV, Jim is a bastard for leaving him behind back in their outlaw days. Sure he's probably still cool with the guy deep down but in reality, he's got beef with Raynor. This "Kerrigan" chick means nothing; and Tychus's character is not one to support sympathetic symptoms. He is a cold blooded killer; one that not even Jim really could stand.
I really wanted to see Tychus ONLY kill (try to anyway) Raynor, the Marines behind them being the Dominion troops more or less reminding him Mengsk is the one orchestrating most of this and there to finish Kerrigan. If there was more development earlier, leading up to this point where Tychus realizes that he is a simple thug and Raynor is a true man with some sense of Honor? Then, he delays a shot on purpose, knowing Raynor will kill him but it's because he realizes Raynor is the better man and this "Arcturus" bastard that keeps the knife at his throat using the CMC suit as a coffin is no better than Tychus is himself.
Tychus is an A-1 Rated scum bag. He has no worth at all, accept to prove that Raynor is a better man. I wanted Tychus to be that one simpleton, worthless criminal who's only selfless act was letting his Best Friend kill him, and not Megnsk.
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
Well that's nothing new. In A LOT of prophecies of ANY game, there's always something that has to be left to chance. NO ONE can make a plan that's millions of years old, and expect every detail to turn out exactly as he thought.
Just note that Prophecies are different than Visions and Predictions. Prophecies are divine, visions and predictions are not and are prone to error or are open ended. Since the Xel'naga are not supposed to be divine and since the QnA panel suggests that other Xel'naga ratted out Amon's plan with a stone post-it note on Ulaan; it is a mere warning and prediction.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
It's not terribly clear or anywhere implicit in any case. I (and a great many others I'd suspect) didn't know I had to even question the tie between Duran's of the artifacts or his knowledge (or lack thereof in this case) about them. Either way, if you're now changing your position to say "Duran had no choice to along with it because he didn't know", he should've been more proactive in hunting Kerrigan down after her deinfestation to make doubly sure she wasn't going to be a problem later on. Duran doesn't seem to be the sort of person that would rest on his laurels especially if he's supposedly believes in a prophetic threat...yet he sits around waiting for Kerrigan to find him and lay the smackdown on him after she liberally takes a detour to power-up before doing so.
I had an idea that Duran simply never acted because he was watching her grow? Maybe, he does need her for something? In SCBW, I can easily say that he was monitoring her simply to make sure she was still "influenced" by Amon's corruption. Once he realized that Kerrigan was still influenced but the Overmind let her retain her sprit, he then "sped up" his progress. During those 4 years, he couldn't seek her out despite trying to seed as many Hybrids as she could because while she was still influenced by corruption, made to feel hopeless and "raging within her own mind" of sort just like the Overmind; she still had the free will enough to eventually discover the warning by the Xel'naga. Being still some what human, the influenced forced on her Hopelessness; but in this hopeless she was gearing the Zerg up for the final battle. Duran was now racing against Kerrigan's build up as well. She was seeking out other potential Terran's like herself, creating Ethan Stewart and Zerg leaders with more individuality than before. She was growing the Swarm to make it more effective in this final fight; Hybrids were going to have a tough time simply "controlling" Broods when her Swarm was diluting it's initial hierarchy into something more efficient and self operating; removing the weakness that was the old Regime the Overmind was in charge of.
When you think of it this way, there seems to be opportunity to fill out why Duran didn't act at first. He had no Hybrids to save the Swarm for the final fight with the Protoss seen in the Overmind's vision. If he killed Kerrigan in BW, the Swarm would've devoured itself.
When he gauges her power and realizes she is truly a threat by understanding that the Overmind left her with free will? He tries to gain on her militarily, but she races her end of the Arms Race too. It's a stale mate. What's worse, a rogue Dominion figure head is seeking a strange Relic! Oh snap! It appears some of Amon's brethren tried to intervene maybe? Better improvise. He manipulates his way to both Mengsks as Emil Narud and creates the plot that Tychus get's involved in while simultaneously elbow rubbing with Velarian to have access to the Relic. His only hope is to either A - Have Tychus actually succeed, killing Raynor and the Dominion removing Kerrigan entirely OR, B - have a de-infested Kerrigan of no threat and waiting to be captured by Megnsk along with Raynor. The mistake is to have underestimated the Human spirit and never realizing that Kerrigan would WILLINGLY turn Back to Zerg. Being De-infested by the Relic means she's purged of the influence now; an acceptable risk and really the only one left in this matter. Unfortunately for him, Arcturus still fears her so he does something stupid and fakes Rayray's death. Duran may have had no idea that Kerrigan would've chosen as she did.
Care to add more? Maybe we can come up with something slightly tangible?
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
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Originally Posted by
Einharjar
I see no problems with Duran taking his chances and improvising with *a Relic that he didn't even know was available*. That's if the relic is explained in this way.
Since it isn't explained explicitly or implicitly that Duran doesn't know anything about the artifact, it IS a problem. Moreso because one can more easily make a case that Duran does know about the artifacts (the Moebius link with Valerian and Narud). Starting off by saying "if Duran didn't know about the artifact..." is a flight of fancy because you have to find a convolution/reinterpret some other dubious and obscure source of info to justify that setup first.
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Originally Posted by
Einharjar
In other news: I've realized that we've strayed from the intentional topic of debating if the Zerg's genetic prowess was retconned with Abathur's comments about Stukov.
Since we're dealing with supposition, maybe Abathur's remark meant that he can't bring people back from the dead given that the last time that most people (not many people would be aware of the 64 mission Resurrection IV) saw him officially was being killed. *Shrug*
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Originally Posted by
Einharjar
I had an idea that Duran simply never acted because he was watching her grow? Maybe, he does need her for something? In SCBW, I can easily say that he was monitoring her simply to make sure she was still "influenced" by Amon's corruption. Once he realized that Kerrigan was still influenced but the Overmind let her retain her sprit, he then "sped up" his progress.
This doesn't make sense. If Amon wanted the Overmind killed to weaken the Zerg despite it already being under its influence, I would also assume that it wanted them to be kept weakened. One can make the case that Duran is not in cahoots with Amon (which is another big 'if'), but if Duran was in on the same plan surely he would continue to keep the Zerg weakened by also killing Kerrigan, right? Who cares if she's still under Amon's influence or not, the Overmind still was or was not and Amon forced his suicide anyway (as you say, Ein). Given the chance that she could've been "free" when the Overmind died, Duran should be even more compelled to kill her straight away not just sit by and watch or wait for the artifact to free her completely so she can begin her predicted role as "ultimate threat to their plans".
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Originally Posted by
Einharjar
When you think of it this way, there seems to be opportunity to fill out why Duran didn't act at first. He had no Hybrids to save the Swarm for the final fight with the Protoss seen in the Overmind's vision. If he killed Kerrigan in BW, the Swarm would've devoured itself.
So what if the Zerg are leaderless? He can still harvest some Zerg samples whilst they killed each other. Heck, Duran could've done that right from the get-go as Amon could've stopped the Zerg/restricted them to Zerus by not creating the Overmind/killing it in its infancy. Someone said previously that the Hybrids don't seem to need much to make (in response to me saying that numerous samples would've had to been procured to seed his numerous worlds in a short period of time if hybrids were not viable up until BW's events) such that they could've taken their time building up their Hybrid army slowly and then nuked them at any time of their choosing.
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Originally Posted by
Einharjar
When he gauges her power and realizes she is truly a threat by understanding that the Overmind left her with free will? He tries to gain on her militarily, but she races her end of the Arms Race too. It's a stale mate.
You seem to have forgotten that Duran was right next to Kerrigan throughout the majority of the Zerg campaingn in BW. If he realised that she'd be gaining power, why would he disappear on her? He had the best opportunity then to just plainly stab her in the back metaphorically and literally speaking, finishing things right there and then! There'd be no need for an arms race nor any for the other stuff that follows/you mentioned to occur at all.
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
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Originally Posted by
Einharjar
That's exactly what I wanted to feel, but never felt it. The part where Tychus was raging in the Hyperion's bar I was hoping was a guilt trip. You can't tell me that guilt trip was because "I have to kill this Zerg queen, nooo! I can't stand it!!". Once the WoL ending happened, there was too little development for him. If his initial objective from the very beginning was to kill Kerrigan, it makes it even worse. If it was changed over time and Tychus starts to get irate from realizing he is being manipulated as much as anyone by Mengsk? ... then okay... but still the guy was stiff as a board when growing as a character.
As to Tychus actually sympathizing with Kerrigan? Doesn't make sense either. He cares for no one, barely cares for Jim in the first place. From Tychus's POV, Jim is a bastard for leaving him behind back in their outlaw days. Sure he's probably still cool with the guy deep down but in reality, he's got beef with Raynor. This "Kerrigan" chick means nothing; and Tychus's character is not one to support sympathetic symptoms. He is a cold blooded killer; one that not even Jim really could stand.
I really wanted to see Tychus ONLY kill (try to anyway) Raynor, the Marines behind them being the Dominion troops more or less reminding him Mengsk is the one orchestrating most of this and there to finish Kerrigan. If there was more development earlier, leading up to this point where Tychus realizes that he is a simple thug and Raynor is a true man with some sense of Honor? Then, he delays a shot on purpose, knowing Raynor will kill him but it's because he realizes Raynor is the better man and this "Arcturus" bastard that keeps the knife at his throat using the CMC suit as a coffin is no better than Tychus is himself.
Tychus is an A-1 Rated scum bag. He has no worth at all, accept to prove that Raynor is a better man. I wanted Tychus to be that one simpleton, worthless criminal who's only selfless act was letting his Best Friend kill him, and not Megnsk.
Maybe to you. To me, I still believe Tychus carried a moral code.
That's one of those things most people don't see: hero or villain, both sides carry a moral code, however twisted that could be. It's almost impossible to find someone without ANY form of a moral code. The developers' explanation was that Tychus was not a person to kill innocent people, though I didn't think that was a very strong explanation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einharjar
I had an idea that Duran simply never acted because he was watching her grow? Maybe, he does need her for something? In SCBW, I can easily say that he was monitoring her simply to make sure she was still "influenced" by Amon's corruption. Once he realized that Kerrigan was still influenced but the Overmind let her retain her sprit, he then "sped up" his progress. During those 4 years, he couldn't seek her out despite trying to seed as many Hybrids as she could because while she was still influenced by corruption, made to feel hopeless and "raging within her own mind" of sort just like the Overmind; she still had the free will enough to eventually discover the warning by the Xel'naga. Being still some what human, the influenced forced on her Hopelessness; but in this hopeless she was gearing the Zerg up for the final battle. Duran was now racing against Kerrigan's build up as well. She was seeking out other potential Terran's like herself, creating Ethan Stewart and Zerg leaders with more individuality than before. She was growing the Swarm to make it more effective in this final fight; Hybrids were going to have a tough time simply "controlling" Broods when her Swarm was diluting it's initial hierarchy into something more efficient and self operating; removing the weakness that was the old Regime the Overmind was in charge of.
That'd make no sense. Influence or no influence, Duran had to know that after what happened at the end of Brood War, there's no possible way anyone else in the sector would listen to anything she has to say anymore. She was completely alone with the swarm now, and that's not enough to beat Amon.
In that sense, he didn't have to hurry things up with the hybrids unless the hybrid army is VERY small in number or something. It's hard to say, but from what I could see, a single hybrid is enough to control the WHOLE of the swarm if need be. After all, even with the primal infestation, Kerrigan still had a hard time fighting the hybrid dominators, and that was with the swarm fighting alongside her.
For me though, deep in Kerrigan's subconcousness, infesting Ethan Stewart was actually an experiment because she still wanted Raynor at her side. But she couldn't chance the virus until she knows it won't turn him into a mindless mutant, and this was why we saw the experiments happen on Meinhoff in WoL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einharjar
When you think of it this way, there seems to be opportunity to fill out why Duran didn't act at first. He had no Hybrids to save the Swarm for the final fight with the Protoss seen in the Overmind's vision. If he killed Kerrigan in BW, the Swarm would've devoured itself.
No it wouldn't. If you read SC Hybrid, when Kerrigan infested Amanda Haley, her Cerebrate was still alive by 2501. This means that while Cerebrates cannot live without the Overmind, they don't die INSTANTLY if the Overmind dies.
Unless, of course, Duran felt that if Kerrigan died in BW, too little of the swarm could be saved.
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Originally Posted by
Einharjar
Duran may have had no idea that Kerrigan would've chosen as she did.
It's not about what she did or not, Duran just didn't expect Zeratul to act the way he did. He would have expected Zeratul to seek retribution against Kerrigan one way or another, not help her to Zerus.
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
[QUOTE=ragnarok;192431]Maybe to you. To me, I still believe Tychus carried a moral code.
That's one of those things most people don't see: hero or villain, both sides carry a moral code, however twisted that could be. It's almost impossible to find someone without ANY form of a moral code. The developers' explanation was that Tychus was not a person to kill innocent people, though I didn't think that was a very strong explanation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
That'd make no sense. Influence or no influence, Duran had to know that after what happened at the end of Brood War, there's no possible way anyone else in the sector would listen to anything she has to say anymore. She was completely alone with the swarm now, and that's not enough to beat Amon.
How or why would he care? The only reason why he would care was that he would've wanted Kerrigan to be preoccupied in vengful schemes as they'd delude her to the real threat so if anything; he doesn't HAVE to know what happens even in Mission Omega, he just needs to see to it that Kerrigan is distracted and is lead by purely Human desires; IE Hatred, Vengeance, Remorse, Fear ect ect. These things make her lose track of the Overmind's agenda of "providing" for it's children. So this whole scenario falls in line with what I'm saying. He pokes his head in to help Kerrigan achieve her vengeful goals to let her keep turning face to her true self; the fact that she's now Zerg.
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
In that sense, he didn't have to hurry things up with the hybrids unless the hybrid army is VERY small in number or something. It's hard to say, but from what I could see, a single hybrid is enough to control the WHOLE of the swarm if need be. After all, even with the primal infestation, Kerrigan still had a hard time fighting the hybrid dominators, and that was with the swarm fighting alongside her.
There is no correlation between one being able to wreak Psionic Havoc and one's ability to mentally dominate or create entire Hive Minds. There may be, but that's yet to be see. In the very short story you mentioned below, it reveals a particular "Gene" refered to by the "Cerebrate" as a "subordinate" gene. If the Hybrid is a "Subordinate", than who's to say it's even designed to handle it's own Brood. It may beable to mentally dominate indivduals, but to mimic a Hive Mind? That's different. That's where the Cerebrates and the second Overmind (which was far less mature and weaker) would've come in handy. Kill the Old Overmind, the one secretly rebelling? Use it's agents to create a weaker one for the Hybrids to control; thus controlling the Swarm itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
For me though, deep in Kerrigan's subconsciousness, infesting Ethan Stewart was actually an experiment because she still wanted Raynor at her side. But she couldn't chance the virus until she knows it won't turn him into a mindless mutant, and this was why we saw the experiments happen on Meinhoff in WoL.
Ethan Stewart's tale explicitly spells it out that Kerrigan is looking for ways to create others like her, but less powerful so she'd still dominate over them as the Queen. Unless she's aware of something we aren't (maybe Jim likes to make it or break it with Dominatrixes) about Jim's preferences in close bonds with women; her attempts to secure Ethan Stewart as a concubine were Queen driven as well as Human.
However, I won't deny that she had some connection still. With Amanda Haley, certain things like Amanda blowing up the Drone's head made Sarah think of the same thing she did to her own mother. Who knows. Perhaps she more or less has pity on Terran's. In her Queen of Blades form, no love from her would ever reach the surface for Raynor; but it would've gone far enough to see him her own slave so that she knew he was there. That's it. What you're proposing actually makes her more vile than good... wtg...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragnarok
No it wouldn't. If you read SC Hybrid, when Kerrigan infested Amanda Haley, her Cerebrate was still alive by 2501. This means that while Cerebrates cannot live without the Overmind, they don't die INSTANTLY if the Overmind dies.
What?
Where did this come from? Of course Cerebrates don't die, other wise the Series might've ended with SC1 and never would've seen BW. I'm so confused. Kerrigan has an entire Swarm at her disposal and despite "seeding countless worlds", there isn't any evidence that to suggest that Duran had already had enough Hybrids awake to take her head on and remove her from power. Unless you can find me some. I'm not seeing where my quote is being misleading on this to take it to bringing up the Cerebrate and Amanda Haley, who coincidentally was supposed to be Izhsa.
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
Unless, of course, Duran felt that if Kerrigan died in BW, too little of the swarm could be saved.
And this is what I meant by it ... I don't know... DEVOURING ITSELF.
Let me arrange a time line.
-Overmind arrives, infests Kerrigan. All is well, it wants to use her against the Protoss
-Overmind succeeds in creating the Queen of Blades. Shit goes down on Char and Bitch of the Universe duels Tassadar whilst Zeratul begins thinning Cerebrates.
-Overmind says it's famous line about the QoB's free will being intact and says it's hastily leaving for Auir.
-Overmind arrives on Auir, never taking Sarah with it. Duran notices and steps up to plate soon. This isn't what was planned...
-Overmind dies on Auir, as planned as it seems. It's meant to reduce the Zerg to a point that they are vulnerable to being controlled now. Just need a second Weaker Overmind to manipulate with Hybrids... but what's this?
-The QoB is set up to rule. She spans the entire Brood War destroying almost every last vestige of Amon's corruptions while never realizing it. Only herself and a few "Unknown Cerebrate Names" survive for a time.
-Interbellum Interlude - QoB uses the Cerebrates no longer; replaces them with Brood Mothers with knowledge gained from her Ethan Stewart and Amanda Haley type experiments. (I'd like to note that the Cerebrate involved with those Experiments is an odd fact now concerning that Abathur now exists. It is more probable now that the Cerebrate is to be Abathur in some form of Retcon and that shortly after Omega, even the player Cerebrate is killed off)
-QoB now stands as the only infleunced character by Amon within the Swarm. Her spirit leads her to discover the Prophecy and continue developing her Swarm to include more individualistic traits.
-QoB discovers the Prophecy and the truths that lie within. She is overcome by hopelessness, a Human emotion brought on by Amon's corruption. Her callousness brought on by her Zerg traits has her give in to her hopelessness by acting as a cornered beast. She prepares for the final Battle, convinced that she will die and so will her Swarm.
-WoL happens; QoB is de-infested and although she is still alive? She's now just Kerrigan. She's a wanted fugitive to Mengsk; notably sentanced to death to keep her truths from comming out.
-Mengsk almost catches Raynor and Kerrigan both, but Raynor ensures Kerrigan's safety by sacrificing his own in the name of love [rolls eyes]
-Mengsk panics? I guess? I have no idea why he Tweeted #Just killed Raynor! I'm so baus! Like my page on FB!!!. However it pisses Kerrigan off to the core... that hopelessness is back; that vengeance is back... she chooses a way: Uses the Zerg
-Along her journey; she chooses not only to use the Zerg? But to also become Zerg once more. Also not planned. Stupid Mengsk! Why did you have to go and piss her off?
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
It's not about what she did or not, Duran just didn't expect Zeratul to act the way he did. He would have expected Zeratul to seek retribution against Kerrigan one way or another, not help her to Zerus.
You know how whack that sounds?
Put yourself in Duran's shoes for a moment please. Before any of us even read the DT saga Duran basically spouted out the same prophecy to Zeratul's face. In front of Hybrids. In light of the Overmind being dead and Kerrigan just a headless horsemen killing because she likes it.
WTF? Why would he never expect Zeratul to try and at least do SOMETHING? The only thing Duran is guilty of at this point is maybe not knowing that Zeratul was even aware of Zerus in the first place which leads us back to this issue of Blizzard making SCs villians look like complete and utter MORONS in the face of Common sense...
Duran CANT KILL Sarah as the QoB because he needs to Swarm to be intact to make up the bulk of his Army with Hyrbid's as their Lords. But he CAN kill Zeratul. So if anything, tell me why the idiot didn't kill Zeratul on that Moon after literally giving him the same Warning the Ulaan Prophecies and Zamamara do a couple of years LATER?
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einharjar
You know how whack that sounds?
Put yourself in Duran's shoes for a moment please. Before any of us even read the DT saga Duran basically spouted out the same prophecy to Zeratul's face. In front of Hybrids. In light of the Overmind being dead and Kerrigan just a headless horsemen killing because she likes it.
WTF? Why would he never expect Zeratul to try and at least do SOMETHING? The only thing Duran is guilty of at this point is maybe not knowing that Zeratul was even aware of Zerus in the first place which leads us back to this issue of Blizzard making SCs villians look like complete and utter MORONS in the face of Common sense...
Duran CANT KILL Sarah as the QoB because he needs to Swarm to be intact to make up the bulk of his Army with Hyrbid's as their Lords. But he CAN kill Zeratul. So if anything, tell me why the idiot didn't kill Zeratul on that Moon after literally giving him the same Warning the Ulaan Prophecies and Zamamara do a couple of years LATER?
It's not that Duran wouldn't expect Zeratul to do NOTHING. Yes he knows Zeratul would do SOMETHING, but not in terms of actually HELPING her. You also have to remember that at the time of Raszagal's death, Duran was still with Kerrigan and the swarm. He had seen Zeratul's anguish, and therefore expected him to turn down his matriarch's actions to lead his people. In the end, he was right on that, because we saw where Zeratul was in DT Saga Twilight.
It wasn't until Jake Ramsey and Zamara came that convinced him otherwise. It's likely that Duran expected that Zeratul would impose self exile or something. Even if he didn't expect that, then perhaps on the Dark Moon, Duran expected Zeratul to feel there's nothing that can be done because there's so many hybrids on so many worlds and everything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einharjar
What?
Where did this come from? Of course Cerebrates don't die, other wise the Series might've ended with SC1 and never would've seen BW. I'm so confused. Kerrigan has an entire Swarm at her disposal and despite "seeding countless worlds", there isn't any evidence that to suggest that Duran had already had enough Hybrids awake to take her head on and remove her from power. Unless you can find me some. I'm not seeing where my quote is being misleading on this to take it to bringing up the Cerebrate and Amanda Haley, who coincidentally was supposed to be Izsha.
There's not, because right now we still don't know just how big the hybrid army really is. And in any case, they weren't yet ready by the time Izsha was made. But ultimately, Duran would have had to use the hybrids to remove Kerrigan from power because despite the influence from Amon, she's still making plans against him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einharjar
Ethan Stewart's tale explicitly spells it out that Kerrigan is looking for ways to create others like her, but less powerful so she'd still dominate over them as the Queen. Unless she's aware of something we aren't (maybe Jim likes to make it or break it with Dominatrixes) about Jim's preferences in close bonds with women; her attempts to secure Ethan Stewart as a concubine were Queen driven as well as Human.
However, I won't deny that she had some connection still. With Amanda Haley, certain things like Amanda blowing up the Drone's head made Sarah think of the same thing she did to her own mother. Who knows. Perhaps she more or less has pity on Terran's. In her Queen of Blades form, no love from her would ever reach the surface for Raynor; but it would've gone far enough to see him her own slave so that she knew he was there. That's it. What you're proposing actually makes her more vile than good... wtg...
Yes, but in her view this is a good thing. Obviously she still remembered that she and Raynor made a great team back in the SoK days, maybe she wanted that again. She always felt if Jim had fought on her side, they would have dominated everything a LONG time ago, and she would have had everything she wanted. However, Raynor was unwilling to join the swarm like that, and therefore infestation was required, so he could see from her POV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einharjar
There is no correlation between one being able to wreak Psionic Havoc and one's ability to mentally dominate or create entire Hive Minds. There may be, but that's yet to be see. In the very short story you mentioned below, it reveals a particular "Gene" refered to by the "Cerebrate" as a "subordinate" gene. If the Hybrid is a "Subordinate", than who's to say it's even designed to handle it's own Brood. It may beable to mentally dominate indivduals, but to mimic a Hive Mind? That's different. That's where the Cerebrates and the second Overmind (which was far less mature and weaker) would've come in handy. Kill the Old Overmind, the one secretly rebelling? Use it's agents to create a weaker one for the Hybrids to control; thus controlling the Swarm itself.
Again, this is just my frustration in the lack of info for the hybrids. As of this moment, all we know is that they were meant to revive Amon. I mean ok you can say that the Overmind's vision said they can enslave the swarm, but Amon can do that all by himself. It's just theory and speculation, Blizzard's lack of info makes things annoying.
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Originally Posted by
Einharjar
How or why would he care? The only reason why he would care was that he would've wanted Kerrigan to be preoccupied in vengful schemes as they'd delude her to the real threat so if anything; he doesn't HAVE to know what happens even in Mission Omega, he just needs to see to it that Kerrigan is distracted and is lead by purely Human desires; IE Hatred, Vengeance, Remorse, Fear ect ect. These things make her lose track of the Overmind's agenda of "providing" for it's children. So this whole scenario falls in line with what I'm saying. He pokes his head in to help Kerrigan achieve her vengeful goals to let her keep turning face to her true self; the fact that she's now Zerg.
Too preoccupied with vengeance? But that's not how it worked before WoL. Kerrigan allowed Mengsk to live by the end of BW so that she could humiliate him again another day. It wasn't about vengeance or anything like that. Same with the Protoss and why she didn't finish them off.
Now, on the other hand, if it was just to focus Kerrigan's attention on them and ONLY them, then you have a point, although I'm unsure of Duran knew Kerrigan felt there was another threat looming over the horizon...
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
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Originally Posted by
Einharjar
You know how whack that sounds?
Put yourself in Duran's shoes for a moment please. Before any of us even read the DT saga Duran basically spouted out the same prophecy to Zeratul's face. In front of Hybrids. In light of the Overmind being dead and Kerrigan just a headless horsemen killing because she likes it.
WTF? Why would he never expect Zeratul to try and at least do SOMETHING? The only thing Duran is guilty of at this point is maybe not knowing that Zeratul was even aware of Zerus in the first place which leads us back to this issue of Blizzard making SCs villians look like complete and utter MORONS in the face of Common sense...
Duran CANT KILL Sarah as the QoB because he needs to Swarm to be intact to make up the bulk of his Army with Hyrbid's as their Lords. But he CAN kill Zeratul. So if anything, tell me why the idiot didn't kill Zeratul on that Moon after literally giving him the same Warning the Ulaan Prophecies and Zamamara do a couple of years LATER?
Wait, what makes you think Duran could have killed Zeratul in Dark Origins? The dialogue then - about how Zeratul can destroy his projects there but won't be able to find them all in time - strongly implies that Zeratul is the more powerful force of the two.
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Wait, what makes you think Duran could have killed Zeratul in Dark Origins? The dialogue then - about how Zeratul can destroy his projects there but won't be able to find them all in time - strongly implies that Zeratul is the more powerful force of the two.
Well are you sure Duran was actually ON the Dark Moon at all?
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
Well are you sure Duran was actually ON the Dark Moon at all?
No. But I don't see how that would help him in killing Zeratul?
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
No. But I don't see how that would help him in killing Zeratul?
To me, I think Duran was still assuming that the Protoss mentality is that they can't embrace change, and that goes for Zeratul as well.
Besides, he saw it as his plan could not be stopped. This was still true by HotS, even after the confrontation with Kerrigan because Amon had been revived.
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
To me, I think Duran was still assuming that the Protoss mentality is that they can't embrace change, and that goes for Zeratul as well.
Besides, he saw it as his plan could not be stopped. This was still true by HotS, even after the confrontation with Kerrigan because Amon had been revived.
I think this would be more likely.
And given the recent events via HotS, Duran was clearly more than Zeratul will ever be unless he becomes some sort of Twighlight Archon via he and Artanis having Bro Love Sex.
So my assumption is based on two things: HotS showed us some of Duran's ability and while Kerrigan beat him; it took awhile.
Zeratul only brought a small force for scouting purposes. Duran obviously has greater access to needed firepower if need be, not including himself.
Despite this, I think Rangarok's assumption would give some reasoning. He technically disses Zeratul and the Protoss as a whole for the way they act;
Duran: "Your violence, young prodigal, is typical. As is your inability to comprehend the greater scheme of things. You can destroy all of the specimens here. It will do you no good. For I have seeded the Hybrid on many, many worlds. You will never find them all before they awaken... And when they do... your universe will be changed... forever."
Still, it's quite idiotic of one who's capable of such schemes to just, never assume Zeratul would find a way. The guy even Killed his own Matriarch to get things done; so trying to find a way to talk to Kerrigan or whatever it may have been at that time to get the ball rolling is of no issue.
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
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Originally Posted by
Einharjar
Duran: "Your violence, young prodigal, is typical. As is your inability to comprehend the greater scheme of things. You can destroy all of the specimens here. It will do you no good. For I have seeded the Hybrid on many, many worlds. You will never find them all before they awaken... And when they do... your universe will be changed... forever."
Still, it's quite idiotic of one who's capable of such schemes to just, never assume Zeratul would find a way. The guy even Killed his own Matriarch to get things done; so trying to find a way to talk to Kerrigan or whatever it may have been at that time to get the ball rolling is of no issue.
This is my whole point. We don't even know how old Duran really is. He may have said throughout the millennia, so that makes him at least thousands of years old, if not older.
In that sense, you can see the sage mentality in him, believing he's all knowing and that the plan he put into motion might have some MINOR setbacks, but nothing more...
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
This is my whole point. We don't even know how old Duran really is. He may have said throughout the millennia, so that makes him at least thousands of years old, if not older.
Take that with a grain of salt. 634 year old Zeratul himself talks about his service to 1045 year old Raszagal in terms of millennia ("Matriarch, I have served you for many millennia. I have always valued your wisdom and strength. " - Countdown, The Stand) and that's not even going into his witnessing the entropy of entire realities.
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Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Take that with a grain of salt. 634 year old Zeratul himself talks about his service to 1045 year old Raszagal in terms of millennia ("Matriarch, I have served you for many millennia. I have always valued your wisdom and strength. " - Countdown, The Stand) and that's not even going into his witnessing the entropy of entire realities.
Yeah, that Zeratul likes his hyperbole, doesn't he? What a drama queen. :p
