Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Pulling out the "it's your fault for not reading/knowing some unknown and non-descript fluff that most people don't care for or thought existed" excuse, I see.

Besides, it's one thing to say that the Overmind lucked in receiving a gift in the form of Kerrigan (which alone can be criticised for being a contrived coincidence), but to say that she also happened to be the one human who could only be properly infested because of some vague and obligatory specialness, who also happened to be a psionic, who also happened to be the best and most powerful psionic ever, who also happens to be the prophesied saviour of the Zerg but also happens to be the linchpin for Duran's plan for reviving Amon in time to have the story of Sc2 just swings that BS meter way into the red.

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Hey I didn't say it's a GREAT excuse, but it's a hell of a lot better than if Blizzard says, "I didn't think of that."

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Ok. So what you're saying is that Duran "sped up" quote about Kerrigan is that it's got nothing to do with helping or encouraging him to wake the Hybrids faster nor find the artifact sooner but rather that the mere existence of infested Kerrigan alone is an assumed potential quantity of having sped up his progress once he gets either enough Hybrids awoken or the artifact found. That's like saying that the presence of light (psionic energy) will speed up the progress of photosynthesis in a plant (waking Amon) once it has time to grow sufficient roots and leaves (Hybrid creation) and finds sources of water and CO2 (psionic entities with which the artifact pieces render down); which is ridiculous because the process cannot even start, let alone be described as "speeding up", without all the other components and that the speed of the process is actually dependent on the limiting factors of equally important components, not one.

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Well look at it this way: Duran never said a thing about the hybrids awakening faster.

Now, on the other hand, you CAN argue that Duran's actions with Mengsk to create hybrids was to speed up the process. Yes, you can say that hybrid creating is beyond terran technology, but that's only HALF true.

Look at Project Gestalt by Dr. Bergess, which created Terran/Protoss hybrids. It means Dominion technology had the POTENTIAL to create those hybrids.

Here's what I think could be a possibility: In Dark Origin, Zeratul had discovered terran technology trying to manipulate and control Protoss technology for the hybrid creation. If that's true, then Protoss technology might be advanced enough to create hybrids, and if terran technology could be used to control that, the rest is self explanatory.

Thus Duran/Narud told Mengsk of ways to control the Protoss technology via terran technology.

Either that or it had something to do with the Xel'Naga temples in the lower labs of Skygeirr. Maybe those were built by Amon, with instructions of WANTING whoever stumbled across it to succeed with the hybrid making, and not realize it would be their undoing. If you had played any of the Dead Space games, it's a similar concept.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Maybe the secret to generate more similar wormholes. Whatever.

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Maybe, if only Blizzard would explain.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I'm a little perturbed that you've given the idea even a hint of serious thought...

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Don't be stupid, I'm not giving it a thought, I'm already helping at least 4 different authors with their fic on fanfiction.net for the post HotS storylines, many of them wanted to continue their relationship. And since 3 of them are of an M rating, I'm sure you know EXACTLY where this is going.

Trust me Turalyon, I'm tired of all the crap I hear from battlnet that they deserve to roast in hell. You can make the story as sci-fi as you want, I just want a GOOD ending for them, it doesn't have to be a live happily ever after version.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Some people think the domination effect is telekinetic i.e. Nova actually moved the legs/weapons/fingers on the unit herself. In which case it would be different than Raszagal's mind control, and certainly not something Kerrigan could maintain from lightyears away.


Which is what exactly? I think HoTS pretty much put the last nail in the love story coffin ironically. Given that Blizzard will never condone the implication of monster-on-human intercourse, and Kerrigan tells us that she still wants to continue leading the swarm, it's quite unlikely that they'll end up "together". I still believe it's not too late for Raynor to live up to his promise and put a bullet in her head.

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Yeah but Blizzard never put the details of how Kerrigan corrupted Raszagal. I'm willing to bet they won't explain the details either just because they're lazy.

She didn't really say she wanted to continue leading the swarm, she DID hint of setting Zagara up as her successor.

For example, if Amon was never revived in HotS, Kerrigan might have considered leaving right away once the Zerg have more free will and all that.

As for your part of Raynor shooting her, I can still see that, but he'd do it only as a last resort.

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Yeah but Blizzard never put the details of how Kerrigan corrupted Raszagal. I'm willing to bet they won't explain the details either just because they're lazy.

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I believe there was a hint given in the Brood War manual in Raszagal's biography, as it implied her she may gradually be losing control over her vast psionic potential. I take this to mean Kerrigan may have used Raszagal's own potential against her to make her a thrall.

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Yeah but Blizzard never put the details of how Kerrigan corrupted Raszagal. I'm willing to bet they won't explain the details either just because they're lazy.

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I believe there was a hint given in the Brood War manual in Raszagal's biography, as it implied her she may gradually be losing control over her vast psionic potential. I take this to mean Kerrigan may have used Raszagal's own potential against her to make her a thrall.

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

I believe there was a hint given in the Brood War manual in Raszagal's biography, as it implied her she may gradually be losing control over her vast psionic potential. I take this to mean Kerrigan may have used Raszagal's own potential against her to make her a thrall.

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Possibly, but it's not explained. I don't know if Blizzard will explain this, but regardless of what happens in LotV, Kerrigan knows she'll still have to face retribution from them when it's all over. That, of course, depends on just WHAT will happen for Zeratul's revealing of the prophecy's full picture.

Either way, I'm curious how the Zerg engineering will play into the merging of the new Xel'Naga.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

Well look at it this way: Duran never said a thing about the hybrids awakening faster.

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Neither did I. The hybrids are only part of the process of waking Amon up and are a component created totally independent from any influence of what Kerrigan may represent. However, Duran specifically states that Kerrigan's induction into the Swarm is what (paraphrasing) "sped up his progress" in awakening Amon (as revealed in HotS). Given that you've previously ruled out that Duran was having trouble making Hybrids until he had Kerrigan as a source to refer to (as was originally implied), then his statement makes no sense since Kerrigan is just a currently useless, waiting potential "pool of energy" just like the many other "pools of energy" called Protoss (who are arguably a far more potent source in terms of psionic energy) until the limiting factor being the Hybrids to collect the energy once they reach critical mass. In short, your explanations are really implying that Kerrigan's presence did not speed up Duran's progress in reviving Amon in contrary to the position that Duran's progress was sped up due to Kerrigan's presence.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

Don't be stupid, I'm not giving it a thought, I'm already helping at least 4 different authors with their fic on fanfiction.net for the post HotS storylines, many of them wanted to continue their relationship. And since 3 of them are of an M rating, I'm sure you know EXACTLY where this is going.

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"Authors"? Seems like an excuse to write Raynor and Infested Kerrigan porn for their own twisted pleasure. You sure you're not using that as a euphemism for "deviants" and "perverts"? :D

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

I just want a GOOD ending for them

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All I wanted was a half-decently written story. You can see how that turned out....

Also, given LotV is going to be about the Protoss, you'll have to wait for the book.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

...once the Zerg have more free will and all that.

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My eye twitches whenever I read something like this. :p

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

Either way, I'm curious how the Zerg engineering will play into the merging of the new Xel'Naga.

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Most likely nothing at all. Given that "essence" are just glowing balls of energy, I'd assume "form" would be something like that, too. They then combine and then magic stuff happens. Yay, genetics! :rolleyes:

Cynicism aside, I wouldn't think that current Zerg genetic engineering would ever factor into the merging of new Xel'naga. I think the idea was that the Protoss and Zerg would evolve naturally before mutually merging to become Xel'Naga, right? This implies that their current forms are not capable of being Xel'Naga and that they each need to evolve into something else (like two entirely different species that are nothing like what they are now?) before this natural merging process to create "true" Xel'Naga can happen. In their current forms and processes, they can't even get close without wanting to kill each other. If the process were even attempted to occur sooner or in any other way than this, Hybrids would be the only logical result one would think.

Well then, I guess the only other way for a "Xel'Naga warp" to happen is by the way of glowing magic balls afterall. :p

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

And I would have agreed right before I played the BW secret missions back in the day. But remember, Duran told Zeratul that the hybrid had been pre-ordained when the stars were still young.

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The xel'naga rebirth was pre-ordained when the stars were young. The hybrid are a corruption and never meant to happen.

There were some theories floating around before SC2 came out that Duran was deluding himself into thinking he was serving the xel'naga.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

The xel'naga rebirth was pre-ordained when the stars were young. The hybrid are a corruption and never meant to happen.

There were some theories floating around before SC2 came out that Duran was deluding himself into thinking he was serving the xel'naga.

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That didn't make sense to me. All right Gradius, then you explain what Duran meant.

Because he said "This creature was preordained when the stars were still young." He was referring to the hybrid in the vat cell at that time, was he not?

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Neither did I. The hybrids are only part of the process of waking Amon up and are a component created totally independent from any influence of what Kerrigan may represent. However, Duran specifically states that Kerrigan's induction into the Swarm is what (paraphrasing) "sped up his progress" in awakening Amon (as revealed in HotS). Given that you've previously ruled out that Duran was having trouble making Hybrids until he had Kerrigan as a source to refer to (as was originally implied), then his statement makes no sense since Kerrigan is just a currently useless, waiting potential "pool of energy" just like the many other "pools of energy" called Protoss (who are arguably a far more potent source in terms of psionic energy) until the limiting factor being the Hybrids to collect the energy once they reach critical mass. In short, your explanations are really implying that Kerrigan's presence did not speed up Duran's progress in reviving Amon in contrary to the position that Duran's progress was sped up due to Kerrigan's presence.

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You can put it that way if you like. I'm not entirely sure if Duran had trouble with the hybrids. I think maybe the hybrids weren't as strong before Kerrigan was introduced into the swarm. If that's true, it's reflected in the "In Utter Darkness" mission, because those hybrids were largely weak and ineffective, except on Brutal.

Maybe Kerrigan's presence helped Duran create even stronger hybrids, which was reflected in the Hybrid Dominators from the "Hand of Darkness" mission.

So to that end, maybe it was both: Kerrigan's presence sped up Duran's plans to revive Amon as well as to create stronger hybrids.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

"Authors"? Seems like an excuse to write Raynor and Infested Kerrigan porn for their own twisted pleasure. You sure you're not using that as a euphemism for "deviants" and "perverts"?

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Well one of them kind of cheated because in that fic, Kerrigan had Abathur collect what remained of Narud's essence in the shapeshifting abilities. This was then used on herself so she could shapeshift back to her human form as a means of healing Raynor.

Regardless, it's not hardcore porn, the point of it all is merely the healing process as too many feel Raynor is still a broken man by the end of HotS.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

All I wanted was a half-decently written story. You can see how that turned out....

Also, given LotV is going to be about the Protoss, you'll have to wait for the book.

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I know that. But even with minor Raynor and Kerrigan interactions in LotV, it's ok as long as there's closure. You can put all the sci-fi battles and what not into LotV, as long as their ending isn't "the two of them sent to roast in hell."

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

My eye twitches whenever I read something like this.

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This is why it's hard to say if such peace can really exist. It's not like the primal Zerg are any less arrogant than their corrupted counterparts.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Most likely nothing at all. Given that "essence" are just glowing balls of energy, I'd assume "form" would be something like that, too. They then combine and then magic stuff happens. Yay, genetics!

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This is the problem for it all. And this is why perhaps they won't merge into the new Xel'Naga at all, and thus they don't have to do with their creators intended. This was somewhat touched upon when Khas created the Khala, believing they didn't need the Xel'Naga at all.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

That didn't make sense to me. All right Gradius, then you explain what Duran meant.

Because he said "This creature was preordained when the stars were still young." He was referring to the hybrid in the vat cell at that time, was he not?

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Right. But during the SC1 days some people thought the xel'naga would have been evil. Now that we know they're "good" and the cycle is in fact referring to xel'naga and not hybrids (if you read the DT saga), it just makes the quote more confusing. I guess it's technically true since the hybrids will "complete" the cycle by taking the place of the xel'naga, but it's misleading to say that their "role in the cosmic order was preordained when the stars were young". Again, that would be referring to true xel'naga, not hybrids.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Right. But during the SC1 days some people thought the xel'naga would have been evil. Now that we know they're "good" and the cycle is in fact referring to xel'naga and not hybrids (if you read the DT saga), it just makes the quote more confusing. I guess it's technically true since the hybrids will "complete" the cycle by taking the place of the xel'naga, but it's misleading to say that their "role in the cosmic order was preordained when the stars were young". Again, that would be referring to true xel'naga, not hybrids.

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Yeah I read that part of what Zamara said of the Xel'Naga cycle and everything.

For me, when Duran said that their role in the cosmic order was preordained, I think it might have been like this:

Amon was looking for two species that could be used to create a hybrid. In other words, the Zerg and Protoss weren't the FIRST species he used to create hybrids.

And that means the hybrid CONCEPTUAL ROLE was preordained, but not the physical hybrid itself. Amon probably had failures with two species in genetically combining them to create a successful hybrid, and those failures continued until the Zerg and Protoss came into the picture.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

You can put it that way if you like. I'm not entirely sure if Duran had trouble with the hybrids. I think maybe the hybrids weren't as strong before Kerrigan was introduced into the swarm. If that's true, it's reflected in the "In Utter Darkness" mission, because those hybrids were largely weak and ineffective, except on Brutal.

Maybe Kerrigan's presence helped Duran create even stronger hybrids, which was reflected in the Hybrid Dominators from the "Hand of Darkness" mission.

So to that end, maybe it was both: Kerrigan's presence sped up Duran's plans to revive Amon as well as to create stronger hybrids.

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Forcing Duran to make new, different or upgraded Hybrids to account for Kerrigan would not constitute as literally speeding up his progress. Duran has to do more work, which equals more time and therefore, NOT speeding up. Unless, you want to now say he was saying it metaphorically :rolleyes:. Maybe he was lying and or joking, too while he was at it. :rolleyes:

Besides, there's a lot of "maybe's" in there for my liking or for any regular person to even bother fanonning to justify that inconsistency. It requires too many mental flip-flops and evasions to make sense (if one can even call it that after all the stuff you have to fanon). The far more easier conclusion is to say it's all a crock and the writers didn't know what they're doing...maybe. :p

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

Regardless, it's not hardcore porn, the point of it all is merely the healing process as too many feel Raynor is still a broken man by the end of HotS.

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Sure, sure, whatever they say, huh? ;)

What's wrong with Raynor still being "broken"? There's plenty of mileage there. He's written to be Sc's resident punching bag - he knows the score, willingly takes it all on and asks for nothing except more pain. Any normal person would have committed suicide long ago, but he goes on. What if Raynor wasn't a badass because he was deep-down a good-hearted man who wants a girl at the end of the day, but because he's some unaware death-seeker?

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

You can put all the sci-fi battles and what not into LotV, as long as their ending isn't "the two of them sent to roast in hell."

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Eh, it doesn't matter. Even if it's a "bad" ending, it will be rewritten by the time the inevitable books come out or Sc3. Characters in Sc don't seem to really "die" anymore anyway given its current soap opera leanings.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

This is why it's hard to say if such peace can really exist. It's not like the primal Zerg are any less arrogant than their corrupted counterparts.

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It can if Blizz will it. Afterall, they're writing the story they want not what would naturally occur. Since characters and situations in Sc can perform 180 changes in direction at any time time with the flimsiest of plot device now, I'm sure there's always potential for the Zerg in becoming good. :(

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

And this is why perhaps they won't merge into the new Xel'Naga at all, and thus they don't have to do with their creators intended. This was somewhat touched upon when Khas created the Khala, believing they didn't need the Xel'Naga at all.

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I've remarked on this previously elsewhere. Moving forward, it's perhaps the best thing that can potentially happen for the Protoss to give them back their own identity again. The writers have leaned too much on the Xel'Naga in recent times to explain everything about the Protoss to their detriment.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Forcing Duran to make new, different or upgraded Hybrids to account for Kerrigan would not constitute as literally speeding up his progress. Duran has to do more work, which equals more time and therefore, NOT speeding up. Unless, you want to now say he was saying it metaphorically :rolleyes:. Maybe he was lying and or joking, too while he was at it. :rolleyes:

Besides, there's a lot of "maybe's" in there for my liking or for any regular person to even bother fanonning to justify that inconsistency. It requires too many mental flip-flops and evasions to make sense (if one can even call it that after all the stuff you have to fanon). The far more easier conclusion is to say it's all a crock and the writers didn't know what they're doing...maybe. :p

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Well, we DO know he likes to mess with people's heads all the time, but that's nothing new for a villain anyway. And I meant Kerrigan's presence opened the ability to create stronger hybrids, hence speeding up the progress. Either that or he took a sample of her psionic energy without her noticing and used that as a basis.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

What's wrong with Raynor still being "broken"? There's plenty of mileage there. He's written to be Sc's resident punching bag - he knows the score, willingly takes it all on and asks for nothing except more pain. Any normal person would have committed suicide long ago, but he goes on. What if Raynor wasn't a badass because he was deep-down a good-hearted man who wants a girl at the end of the day, but because he's some unaware death-seeker?

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Because as he had said it on Char: "Some things are just worth fighting for." Now yes, you can say that was shaken in the "Believe in Me" cutscene, but I believe some part of him still trusted Kerrigan, despite what she did.

As for being a death seeker, he's already a death magnet. If all 3 races are needed to fight Amon, Raynor will be targeted right away because without him, the alliance would crumble.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Eh, it doesn't matter. Even if it's a "bad" ending, it will be rewritten by the time the inevitable books come out or Sc3. Characters in Sc don't seem to really "die" anymore anyway given its current soap opera leanings.

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We'll see. I still want LotV to explain how Tassadar survived.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

It can if Blizz will it. Afterall, they're writing the story they want not what would naturally occur. Since characters and situations in Sc can perform 180 changes in direction at any time time with the flimsiest of plot device now, I'm sure there's always potential for the Zerg in becoming good.

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If they become good, how would SC3 work? You still have to fight the Zerg species if SC3 is made, you know...

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I've remarked on this previously elsewhere. Moving forward, it's perhaps the best thing that can potentially happen for the Protoss to give them back their own identity again. The writers have leaned too much on the Xel'Naga in recent times to explain everything about the Protoss to their detriment.

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Yes well for all the leaning of the Xel'Naga, so little is still revealed.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

And I meant Kerrigan's presence opened the ability to create stronger hybrids, hence speeding up the progress.

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This does not constitute an actual speeding up of progress. This in fact should delay his progress because he now has to incorporate this new stuff (whatever that may be) into his current batch of Hybrids to make them stronger than before due to Kerrigan's mere presence.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

Because as he had said it on Char: "Some things are just worth fighting for." Now yes, you can say that was shaken in the "Believe in Me" cutscene, but I believe some part of him still trusted Kerrigan, despite what she did.

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At the end of WoL, he had to kill his best friend out of duress for saving someone who could have potentially been beyond rehabilitation and still have retained psychotic tendencies. Raynor could have felt great shame and not doing more to help his friend. Luckily, Kerrigan turned out to be good again otherwise who knows how much more broken he could've got. He flipped from being angry and mopey to being hopeful again, he could've just as easily switched back. I guess we can chalk up bipolar disorder as another mental disorder for Raynor.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

As for being a death seeker, he's already a death magnet.

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The former is a character attribute and lends itself to exploring the nature of the character and how they potentially drive the plot (the dangerous situations Raynor finds himself in is largely due to him seeking them) whilst the latter is a literary device imposed on a given character specifically to create drama. Given all the stuff he had been through up to BW, a case for the former as being more tonally consistent for Raynor's mindset wouldn't be that far-fetched. At the least, it's not as far-fetched as him suddenly forgetting his trauma because he caught sight of a naked human girl he once knew.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

I still want LotV to explain how Tassadar survived.

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I'd take it to be something to the effect of "blah blah magic blah blah"? :p

Still, it could just as easily turn out that Tassadar didn't survive at all and that it was just an image conjured up by the Overmind or Amon as some part of hidden conspiracy.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

If they become good, how would SC3 work? You still have to fight the Zerg species if SC3 is made, you know...

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Remember, anything can happen in Sc now. If it needs to be contrived to fight the Zerg, something can be invented to make it happen. It's not that hard to make a rebel faction or some such blather.

Besides, something like this didn't stop WoL from forcing a Terran vs Protoss fight with Selendis, a friendly Protoss! Even despite that, TvP was generally a difficult concept given that Raynor and the majority of the Protoss were on good terms now. Cue the evil Protoss Tal'darim, tailor-made so we have an excuse to fight Protoss. And yes, I've heard the excuse they've been explored and better understood in the books but that doesn't stop them being poorly implemented in WoL as nothing more than generic, on-the-spot Protoss enemies to fight.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

This does not constitute an actual speeding up of progress. This in fact should delay his progress because he now has to incorporate this new stuff (whatever that may be) into his current batch of Hybrids to make them stronger than before due to Kerrigan's mere presence.

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Then you can just say we're all overthinking it and it was only for Amon's revival. Beyond that, I don't see what else Blizzard would say.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

At the end of WoL, he had to kill his best friend out of duress for saving someone who could have potentially been beyond rehabilitation and still have retained psychotic tendencies. Raynor could have felt great shame and not doing more to help his friend. Luckily, Kerrigan turned out to be good again otherwise who knows how much more broken he could've got. He flipped from being angry and mopey to being hopeful again, he could've just as easily switched back. I guess we can chalk up bipolar disorder as another mental disorder for Raynor.

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Yeah well the whole "Believe in Me" scene was because Raynor felt betrayed in that she chose this for herself. But when he saw she was willing to avoid civilian centers, Raynor felt this wasn't like her at all. If this was still the old QoB, she wouldn't have even landed the swarm outside the city. To him, that was enough proof that Kerrigan changed her ways.

Although to me, I always felt that Kerrigan only agreed to Valerian's request for Raynor's sake, as he had continued to believe to the very end that there was more to her than just a mass murderer.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Given all the stuff he had been through up to BW, a case for the former as being more tonally consistent for Raynor's mindset wouldn't be that far-fetched. At the least, it's not as far-fetched as him suddenly forgetting his trauma because he caught sight of a naked human girl he once knew.

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Yeah well that's just Raynor's mentality at the end of WoL. When he finally got Kerrigan back, he wanted to have nothing to do with the prophecy, the rebellion, or ANYTHING anymore. He just wanted to be alone with her, and that's it. HotS's ending was merely a reminder that the prophecy was NOT going away, and it can't be ignored.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I'd take it to be something to the effect of "blah blah magic blah blah"?

Still, it could just as easily turn out that Tassadar didn't survive at all and that it was just an image conjured up by the Overmind or Amon as some part of hidden conspiracy.

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Yeah Blizzard's original excuse that "We had to make Tassadar survive because he's the only one who could have made Zeratul believe on the prophecy" was not a good one. I hope for a better reason.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Besides, something like this didn't stop WoL from forcing a Terran vs Protoss fight with Selendis, a friendly Protoss! Even despite that, TvP was generally a difficult concept given that Raynor and the majority of the Protoss were on good terms now. Cue the evil Protoss Tal'darim, tailor-made so we have an excuse to fight Protoss. And yes, I've heard the excuse they've been explored and better understood in the books but that doesn't stop them being poorly implemented in WoL as nothing more than generic, on-the-spot Protoss enemies to fight.

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Hence why I can see the PvT battles in LotV will involve Raynor, as the Protoss feel he betrayed their alliance because he couldn't get over his lovestruck problems.

Been awhile... but after reading over a few things I'll pipe in.

One - It's an obvious retcon that the Zerg origin story has completely changed. It's also obvious that Blizzard is terrible at writing hard sci fi. Unfortunately, all we can do is Move Along. We're forced with the idea that the Primordial Pool is the new creation story; and apparently Xel'naga piss. Not sure what else to say.

Two - Abathur may have the knowledge, but not the means. This I don't think is too contradicting, despite the retcons for Zerus. I had always believed that the reason why the Overmind couldn't just out right assimilate Protoss was because of their Psionoc fortitude. Not just that, but Protoss seem to be inherently Psi based, not Void. The Void based discipline had to be taught. It just so happens that the Protoss Psionic Fortitude is so great, that they could accomplish this willingly without much modification (and this is assuming that the severing of the Nerve cords does in fact count or not count as modification to achieve this goal. I assumed not, because via Tassadar and Khas, they seem completely and biologically unrelated to having a Bias to Psi over Void or vice versa as they controlled Void energy with Nerve cords intact).
Thus is the reason why the Overmind in SC1 wished to gather the two crystals, and land at a particular special spot on Auir. I believe it had the knowledge from the Xel'naga on how to assimilate the Protoss. It needed to use material that would help bridge the Void (negative Psi) with Psi (positive Psi). Prior to this, the Zerg on their own had no real tools to handle such a task. By landing on Auir in an area prone to Xel'naga tampering, (don't remember, but I thought it was where the Xel'naga first touched ground on Auir... the site of an old Temple?) and gathering material from Khaydarin formations; he could, HIMSELF, finally meld Protoss with Zerg. This melding isn't just of the Genetic leve, but Psionic as well.
Unfortunately, Psionics is one of the least written about sciences/lore concepts in the SC universe. It's just there, and it does magical things. So my idea was based on complete speculation that Psionics had something to do with energy other wise outside are standard physical universe; kind'a like another type of Higgs Field. Something.
However, SC2 adds that the Overmind's original function was to destroy the Protoss entirely or at least die trying... so it's real purpose was to actually commit suicide. As we've seen, plot holes galore form when you try to explain the whole Druan/Narud "I waited til' now to summon my babies for ressurecting my master" and one of the ways I try to close a plot hole, was that the Amon Influence was supposed to get the Overmind killed; not really obliterate the 'Toss. Duran still needs 'Toss alive to make Hybrids and so the idea of Amon having to give the Overmind a secret directive to eradicate the 'Toss doesn't play out well for Duran's plot line. Forcing it to commit suicide? Kind'a does.

Three - Duran's comment about Kerri speeding up the Process was originally, to me, again a revelation on using Psi in the genetic merger. I has assumed as well that Kerri's psi was both Psi and Void. She's Void based now, having been apart of the Hive Link and collective psi that all Zerg share; but her Terran genes apparently support Psi (Protoss based). This speculation was again, pre 2006 information because Kerrigan is allowed to cast Psionic Storm in the game; which is a huge deal. Only Positive Psi can do that AND it takes a high level of Psionics to even accomplish it. This could've been just game play factors, but I was trying to draw on what I had.
SC2 crams this down the trash however, when it becomes pretty obvious that "sped up the process" was more like a "I panicked. Wasn't expecting the suicidal Overmind to secretly create a Zerg savior. We (Amon and I) were hoping it would kill itself at an AFI concert before it accomplished this, but it appears my Shamanistic fore sight needs calibration. I'm now scrambling to pass my Xel'naga genetic's exam as a result. To help brown nose my professor, I'm going to randomly create Stukov as a test subject to prove my theories... with Terran DNA! Far simpler and yet... ... oh forget it"...


I'll follow up later. Just wanted to chime in.

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Originally Posted by Einharjar

Three - Duran's comment about Kerri speeding up the Process was originally, to me, again a revelation on using Psi in the genetic merger. I has assumed as well that Kerri's psi was both Psi and Void. She's Void based now, having been apart of the Hive Link and collective psi that all Zerg share; but her Terran genes apparently support Psi (Protoss based). This speculation was again, pre 2006 information because Kerrigan is allowed to cast Psionic Storm in the game; which is a huge deal. Only Positive Psi can do that AND it takes a high level of Psionics to even accomplish it. This could've been just game play factors, but I was trying to draw on what I had.
SC2 crams this down the trash however, when it becomes pretty obvious that "sped up the process" was more like a "I panicked. Wasn't expecting the suicidal Overmind to secretly create a Zerg savior. We (Amon and I) were hoping it would kill itself at an AFI concert before it accomplished this, but it appears my Shamanistic fore sight needs calibration. I'm now scrambling to pass my Xel'naga genetic's exam as a result. To help brown nose my professor, I'm going to randomly create Stukov as a test subject to prove my theories... with Terran DNA! Far simpler and yet... ... oh forget it"...

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There's no sub-category of psionics called "psi". Everything psionic in StarCraft can be called "psi". There is only:

1) Khala/Templar energy. Only khalai can use this. That's it. Maybe hybrids, but not necessarily.
2) Void energy. Dark Templar and the Zerg use this energy.
3) Possibly a third yet-unnamed category that humans use. 99% likely that it's just another subset of void energy, since we know from SC1 that the zerg are attuned to the psionic emanations of ghosts.

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This speculation was again, pre 2006 information because Kerrigan is allowed to cast Psionic Storm in the game; which is a huge deal. Only Positive Psi can do that AND it takes a high level of Psionics to even accomplish it.

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The only reason it was special is because the khala is normally required to control psi-storms so they don't rage out of control. But dark templar can cast psionic storms too, and some are even powerful enough to control them: http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Darakian (well, at least until he got retconned :P)

That being said, we know in SC2 that Kerrigan actually casts a razor swarm "storm" and not really a psi storm (though I'm sure she could). She can also use mind-control, like a dark archon, which points to the fact that she uses void energy.

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Abathur may have the knowledge, but not the means. This I don't think is too contradicting, despite the retcons for Zerus. I had always believed that the reason why the Overmind couldn't just out right assimilate Protoss was because of their Psionoc fortitude.

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What about Stukov? Why is Narud's infestation of Stukov so much better than Abathur's? Stukov doesn't have any psionic fortitude.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

What about Stukov? Why is Narud's infestation of Stukov so much better than Abathur's? Stukov doesn't have any psionic fortitude.

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Then why was he considered a ghost unit in Brood War?

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Originally Posted by Einharjar

Been awhile... but after reading over a few things I'll pipe in.

One - It's an obvious retcon that the Zerg origin story has completely changed. It's also obvious that Blizzard is terrible at writing hard sci fi. Unfortunately, all we can do is Move Along. We're forced with the idea that the Primordial Pool is the new creation story; and apparently Xel'naga piss. Not sure what else to say.

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I wouldn't say Xel'Naga piss, Einharjar. Remember what we talked about the other day: you can argue all you want that the Xel'Naga largely just observed as the Zerg evolved, according to the SC1 manual. But "largely" did not mean not doing anything at all.

One way or another, the Xel'Naga still gave the Zerg a helping hand in uprooting them, and therefore the Xel'Naga artifact's ability to kill Zerg still makes sense.

However, it's not fully explained in terms of the details of the helping hand, and therefore it's still possible that the Xel'Naga did something to the first spawning pool on Zerus.

Besides, as you and I both agreed, had Blizzard tried harder, the new lore of the Zerg in HotS could still have worked to be compatible with the old lore in the SC1 manual....

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Originally Posted by Einharjar

I had always believed that the reason why the Overmind couldn't just out right assimilate Protoss was because of their Psionoc fortitude.

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Who says there was reason to believe the Overmind could not assimilate the Protoss from the beginning? That they can't was an additive retcon from the EU. From the information in Sc1 only, one assumes the Overmind can and that it possibly requires some prep work. The fact that we don't see it happen or the end stage of it is not proof that it couldn't actually do it. It could have just as easily meant the opposite: that it was assimilating them but we just didn't see it and that the Overmind died before completing its work of Protoss assimilation which is why we don't see it..

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Originally Posted by Einharjar

The Void based discipline had to be taught.

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Huh? How is that different from those who derive their power from the Khala? The Khala is a discipline that needs instruction as well. Afterall, Khas was the one who had to teach his brethren to stop the Aoen of Strife.

Besides, who taught the first Nerazim then? Unless you meant self-taught? Then again, the general psionic ability of the Protoss is an innate skill that doesn't need to be taught - this was demonstrated prior to their first contact with the Xel'Naga. I think that what would need to be taught is from where to derive the energy to fuel that psionic ability - whether it's through the Khala or from the Void.

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Originally Posted by Einharjar

Thus is the reason why the Overmind in SC1 wished to gather the two crystals, and land at a particular special spot on Auir.

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I thought it was only one Khaydarin crystal. The Uraj and Khalis (which you seem to be referencing with the "negative and positive psi") were specific Khaydarin crystals independent of the one that the Overmind harvested off a mound in Aiur.

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Originally Posted by Einharjar

However, SC2 adds that the Overmind's original function was to destroy the Protoss entirely or at least die trying... so it's real purpose was to actually commit suicide. As we've seen, plot holes galore form when you try to explain the whole Druan/Narud "I waited til' now to summon my babies for ressurecting my master" and one of the ways I try to close a plot hole, was that the Amon Influence was supposed to get the Overmind killed; not really obliterate the 'Toss. Duran still needs 'Toss alive to make Hybrids and so the idea of Amon having to give the Overmind a secret directive to eradicate the 'Toss doesn't play out well for Duran's plot line. Forcing it to commit suicide? Kind'a does.

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Doesn't make sense with that logic either because one then wonders why Amon bothered with the Overmind at all if he really just wanted it "to die". Also, why not force it to commit suicide sooner since he had control over it?

The only other explanation for the contradictory nature of Narud's (needing psi to awaken Amon) and Amon's plans (kill all Zerg and Protoss) is that they're not mutually aware of each others goals. *Shrug* :confused:

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Originally Posted by Einharjar

This speculation was again, pre 2006 information because Kerrigan is allowed to cast Psionic Storm in the game; which is a huge deal. Only Positive Psi can do that AND it takes a high level of Psionics to even accomplish it.

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As Gradius said, the Dark Templar have always had this ability. Go back to the manual: Adun was trying to teach those wayward Protoss who rejected the Khala into using their powers but they unleashed devastating psi-storms due to their lack of discipline. The psi-storm is just an expression of raw psionic power with the magnitude and power dependent on the one who created it rather than being specifically due to specific energy or psi-types.

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Originally Posted by Einharjar

SC2 crams this down the trash however, when it becomes pretty obvious that "sped up the process" was more like a "I panicked.

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There's some confusion there because based on Rag's explanations (which are by no means self-evident and require a tonne of fanon) it's now debatable that Duran even sped up at all.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

Then why was he considered a ghost unit in Brood War?

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Because that's the only asset they had to represent him. Plus it's not like he uses any psychic powers in SC2 either (apart from controlling the swarm). Hell, even ghosts in SC1 didn't use any psychic powers for gameplay.

Also, what does that have to do with anything? We already know terrans can be infested and Kaloth infested Stukov just fine the first time around. :P

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Who says there was reason to believe the Overmind could not assimilate the Protoss from the beginning? That they can't was an additive retcon from the EU. From the information in Sc1 only, one assumes the Overmind can and that it possibly requires some prep work. The fact that we don't see it happen or the end stage of it is not proof that it couldn't actually do it. It could have just as easily meant the opposite: that it was assimilating them but we just didn't see it and that the Overmind died before completing its work of Protoss assimilation which is why we don't see it..

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This is what I thought too. There's not really any evidence that the Overmind was failing, just that it wasn't easy. The psionic fortitude problem was bypassed by gathering the crystal and manifesting on Aiur, like Einharjar said.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Who says there was reason to believe the Overmind could not assimilate the Protoss from the beginning? That they can't was an additive retcon from the EU. From the information in Sc1 only, one assumes the Overmind can and that it possibly requires some prep work. The fact that we don't see it happen or the end stage of it is not proof that it couldn't actually do it. It could have just as easily meant the opposite: that it was assimilating them but we just didn't see it and that the Overmind died before completing its work of Protoss assimilation which is why we don't see it..

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As I mentioned, and Gradius pointed out; the Overmind KNEW how to assimilate them. He just needed to jump through hoops to do it. Zerg prior to current retcons, have NO "Khala" styled Psionics within their genetic tool set. Thus the Overmind needed to use a specific set of events, instructions and tools to try and achieve his goal.
Again, as I've stated, we literally have nothing to go on for Psionics. I think you're assuming incorrectly about how Psi Works; just I may as well be. Khala is simply a discipline. It's not Psi at all. It's just a practice of using the Psionics inate in every Protoss to establish the once instinctual communal link they once shared. That is it. There is nothing Psionically special about it. That is, until it's retconned again. With that said, Normal "Psi" couldn't kill Cerebrates and Overminds, but apparently Void based Psi can. So there is a clear difference that the creators are trying to express here... they are just bad at expressing it. We need more info. Badly. However that requires Metzen to actually care... which is an issue...

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Huh? How is that different from those who derive their power from the Khala? The Khala is a discipline that needs instruction as well. Afterall, Khas was the one who had to teach his brethren to stop the Aoen of Strife.

Besides, who taught the first Nerazim then? Unless you meant self-taught? Then again, the general psionic ability of the Protoss is an innate skill that doesn't need to be taught - this was demonstrated prior to their first contact with the Xel'Naga. I think that what would need to be taught is from where to derive the energy to fuel that psionic ability - whether it's through the Khala or from the Void.

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I feel that the Psionic potential is so strong that they were capable of tapping into the Void, via discipline. This is not unlike the parallel drawn in Starwars, where Luke actually melded some "Dark Side" with his "Light Side". Both sides are the Force, but released in different ways, like a polarity. However with a little extra discipline; even a Jedi Master could resist the corruption of the Dark Side but still use Dark Side "Force". So, I considered the "discipline" part in this manner. The Protoss taught themselves how to use Psi in a way that was NOT INNATE to them; because their Fortitude is that uniquely powerful. It's an easy concept; but again one that we can't prove because we don't know squat about "Psi" a SCs Sci Fi canon. It's just... there.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I thought it was only one Khaydarin crystal. The Uraj and Khalis (which you seem to be referencing with the "negative and positive psi") were specific Khaydarin crystals independent of the one that the Overmind harvested off a mound in Aiur.

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No, Khaydarin is everywhere. It's on Bhekar Ro, Nemaka, Auir, Shakuras and any world the Xel'naga had contact with. Uraj and Khalis ARE Khaydarin crystals. The crystals have different uses. Xel'naga used Khaydarin for pretty much everything, Artificial Intelligence, storing information (like the Cave on Auir) and genetic manipulation. What I described as one being positive and one being negative was already admitted as speculation because clearly, the Khaydarin are Psionic and again; we don't know shit about Psi. And it sucks. Lol

However it is explicitly stated that they have different uses and even change. Xel'naga are to have been assumed to use Khaydarin for Void based Psi when manipulating the Zerg and used even more Void based Psi crystals when creating the Overmind and the opposite types where used with the Protoss. "The crystals themselves can also be affected by outside stimuli to an extent, such as the Khalis and Uraj crystals becoming altered by their users and their environment" - wiki entry on Khaydarin. Metzen himself said this in a QnA panel though his authority over his own universe seems to bare little merit these days.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Doesn't make sense with that logic either because one then wonders why Amon bothered with the Overmind at all if he really just wanted it "to die". Also, why not force it to commit suicide sooner since he had control over it?

The only other explanation for the contradictory nature of Narud's (needing psi to awaken Amon) and Amon's plans (kill all Zerg and Protoss) is that they're not mutually aware of each others goals. *Shrug* :confused:

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Well, an excuse could be made to say, that he influenced the Overmind to be over Zealous and misjudge it's progress versus the Protoss on purpose, so that it would be destroyed. Amon could've known of Tassadar's power as well as other things. Maybe he knew of the Nazerim as well so he knew wielders of Void energy could come and destroy the Overmind; thus rendering the Zerg Swarm inert and useless; ready for Amon to use for whatever he wished. Since he is Xel'naga, it'd be stupid of them to not give Amon knowledge of the Protoss since his race last knew them. He should be aware of their potential to destroy the Overmind; something unique to them as there is no other race available currently in the Lore.

He couldn't just "kill the Overmind sooner" because there is specifically no stated race between Zerus and the K-Sector that was psionic. The Overmind was heading straight for Auir; if it had encountered any beings along the way that were Psionic, I'm sure the Overmind would've made a note about it and wouldn't have had such a hard on for Terran Ghosts... I think you're jumping the gun here...

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

As Gradius said, the Dark Templar have always had this ability. Go back to the manual: Adun was trying to teach those wayward Protoss who rejected the Khala into using their powers but they unleashed devastating psi-storms due to their lack of discipline. The psi-storm is just an expression of raw psionic power with the magnitude and power dependent on the one who created it rather than being specifically due to specific energy or psi-types.

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Again, I'm not sure if I just wrote it wrong (I could have. I can write complete jibberish at times) but I fail to see the problem here. Protoss are INNATELY Psionic. I theorize, POSITIVE Psi (the Psi the Khala uses). Thus in order to use VOID Psi (negative or whatever it may be) it had to be TAUGHT because it wasn't INNATE to them. Thus, having Nazerim release Psi Storms? Normal! They are Protoss! Any Protoss, Nazerim, Taldarim or Khalai can release Psionic Storms, given enough strength. Their genes make all of them capable users of what I theorize as "Positive" Psi. Now yes, this is me creating Fan Cannon and theories; but I see no issues with it as of yet.
Once more... we have no info on Psi; and that is an issue on coming a conclusion on anything that uses Psionics as a topic.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

There's some confusion there because based on Rag's explanations (which are by no means self-evident and require a tonne of fanon) it's now debatable that Duran even sped up at all.

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I'm assuming he sped up his "plans" (the progress he was referring to) because if it were to be true, that the Overmind was basically framed to fail - then it's purpose for dying was to prevent the prophecy of a Zerg Savior. Duran, in BW then, having seen this savior basically went "oh shit, it didn't work... " and started seeding his "Many many worlds" in a hastily manner. Thus he employed the help of a corrupt Dictator who would harbor such odd things and used him to help "speed" up the seeding process.
This little tidbit really means nothing now honestly as Duran/Narud has supposedly been removed as a character and the Hybrids were already waking as of WoL. So in turth, Blizzard may never elaborate on this dialogue just as they won't elaborate on many other things including the whole "Amon told the Overmind to do it but the Overmind secretly didn't know it was told to do it but it really did secretly secret know it was told to do it and hid it's secretly secret knowledge of the secret "told you to do it" from Amon".... ... ... oh my god I think I've snapped...

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Originally Posted by Gradius

This is what I thought too. There's not really any evidence that the Overmind was failing, just that it wasn't easy. The psionic fortitude problem was bypassed by gathering the crystal and manifesting on Aiur, like Einharjar said.

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Possibly, but it seemed like the Overmind still had a lot to work out, its work was far from complete when Tassadar made his suicide run to destroy it. I'm still unsure if the Overmind could have succeeded at all.

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Originally Posted by Einharjar

I'm assuming he sped up his "plans" (the progress he was referring to) because if it were to be true, that the Overmind was basically framed to fail - then it's purpose for dying was to prevent the prophecy of a Zerg Savior. Duran, in BW then, having seen this savior basically went "oh shit, it didn't work... " and started seeding his "Many many worlds" in a hastily manner. Thus he employed the help of a corrupt Dictator who would harbor such odd things and used him to help "speed" up the seeding process.
This little tidbit really means nothing now honestly as Duran/Narud has supposedly been removed as a character and the Hybrids were already waking as of WoL. So in turth, Blizzard may never elaborate on this dialogue just as they won't elaborate on many other things including the whole "Amon told the Overmind to do it but the Overmind secretly didn't know it was told to do it but it really did secretly secret know it was told to do it and hid it's secretly secret knowledge of the secret "told you to do it" from Amon".... ... ... oh my god I think I've snapped...

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That's hard to say. To me, it seemed like Amon never expected the Overmind to turn to the terrans AT ALL. But then again, we don't really know when Amon passed away, we just know it was sometime before SC1 happened.

He thus left behind clues for Duran to follow for his revival and everything. Once the terrans arrived in the Korpulu Sector, Duran sat back and observed for a while, before decided to take action in manipulating Mengsk.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

Possibly, but it seemed like the Overmind still had a lot to work out, its work was far from complete when Tassadar made his suicide run to destroy it. I'm still unsure if the Overmind could have succeeded at all.



That's hard to say. To me, it seemed like Amon never expected the Overmind to turn to the terrans AT ALL. But then again, we don't really know when Amon passed away, we just know it was sometime before SC1 happened.

He thus left behind clues for Duran to follow for his revival and everything. Once the terrans arrived in the Korpulu Sector, Duran sat back and observed for a while, before decided to take action in manipulating Mengsk.

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The Overmind WOULD have succeeded as I see it. He gained the knowledge he needed from sacking the Xel'naga and taking their knowledge with him.

Also, it's correct that the Overmind was never intending to find the Terran's, but the retcon in SC2 with this whole Prophecy manner and the Zerg Savior BS that is Kerrigan means that the Overmind saw the Terrans and went "There, right there. That's my chance to create a savior for my species. I cannot assimilate Protoss right away, under Amon's nose. But I can add a Psionically potent Terran to my design and have it appear as if I'm simply creatin a new weapon to fight the Protoss".
The Overmind was absolutely unaware of the Terran's until he heard the Psi Emitter's going off during Confederate tests and remember those emitters needed Ghosts to power them. That drew his interest. Once he realized that the Psionic signature was that of a living being, he saught out the Terrans to exploit any new genetic material that may have been of use because prior to them? He had no access to Psionically adept beings to add to the Zerg gene pool. Terrans provided that option.
Add the retcon, and they are not only an exploit? But convenient for this whole Prophecy bull crap we've been lead into.

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Originally Posted by Einharjar

The Overmind WOULD have succeeded as I see it. He gained the knowledge he needed from sacking the Xel'naga and taking their knowledge with him.

Also, it's correct that the Overmind was never intending to find the Terran's, but the retcon in SC2 with this whole Prophecy manner and the Zerg Savior BS that is Kerrigan means that the Overmind saw the Terrans and went "There, right there. That's my chance to create a savior for my species. I cannot assimilate Protoss right away, under Amon's nose. But I can add a Psionically potent Terran to my design and have it appear as if I'm simply creatin a new weapon to fight the Protoss".
The Overmind was absolutely unaware of the Terran's until he heard the Psi Emitter's going off during Confederate tests and remember those emitters needed Ghosts to power them. That drew his interest. Once he realized that the Psionic signature was that of a living being, he saught out the Terrans to exploit any new genetic material that may have been of use because prior to them? He had no access to Psionically adept beings to add to the Zerg gene pool. Terrans provided that option.
Add the retcon, and they are not only an exploit? But convenient for this whole Prophecy bull crap we've been lead into.

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This is why even the prophecy takes chances, you know that.

You and I both know the lore from SC1 to SC2 had its flaws, though I still liked it.

And the Overmind didn't see his chance until knowing about the terrans. In any case I don't think he even wanted Kerrigan to fight the Protoss in the first place, merely an added bonus.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

This is why even the prophecy takes chances, you know that.

You and I both know the lore from SC1 to SC2 had its flaws, though I still liked it.

And the Overmind didn't see his chance until knowing about the terrans. In any case I don't think he even wanted Kerrigan to fight the Protoss in the first place, merely an added bonus.

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This is like the only point where maybe the SC2 retconning helps a BW plot issue.
Kerrigan is basically a Bad Ass revision of how things are done within the Swarm in BW. She's allowed to think, stay almost an individual and even has the ability to control a small Brood. Yet when the time comes to Sack Auir... she's left behind. The chick is treated like a daughter and prize by the Overmind, who even lets her get away with getting Zasz killed but doesn't seem to utilize her potential in a fight where her appearance could've easily thrown off Raynor and had the recklessness to challenge Tassadar for a rematch since being embarrassed by him earlier. Her appearance on Auir might've actually saved the Overmind.
However, the retconned Overmind's directive to let itself be framed to fail at Auir, meant that it purposely left Kerri' on Char to "guard" his flanks when it seemingly was letting itself succumb to it's controlled will; die, sever the link Amon had made corrupt and let Kerrigan have a chance in leading the "Brood Wars" as an eventual successor to him. It was a gamble. This gamble is truth as the WoL missions suggest that was Kerrigan's purpose. However I'm drawing the points in BW as well.
People challanged me on this for the longest time during the BW days, that I saw Kerrigan as an Overmind replacement. In BW, the Zerg were purely animal, sentient and intelligent, but still animal. Thus, by logic; the Overmind might've seen where Kerrigan was an "evolution" possibility over itself and better for the Zerg species as a whole. And this is all that matters. The Overmind even quotes this in BW, referring to Kerrigan's "will" to Daggoth and Zasz when the two show their displeasure of her actions. Despite her being an individual and reckless, she will do what it takes for the Zerg species as a whole. That is precisely what any animal would do for it's kin.

And now, with the Retcon; the idea that Kerrigan was a replacement for the Overmind is actually a true possibility. It knew it needed to die to sever Amon's link. It might've known that it was supposed to Die at Auir anyway; as per Amon's plan to reduce to the Zerg to their feral state and be otherwise, worthless. So it needed a replacement. TADA! Conveniently... there is this race of Terrans who has Psionics in it's blood, just in an infant state. So he finds the best Psionic they have to offer, Kerrigan; and uses her to continue it's will for his Kind. Survival.

So what do you konw... something good out've all these retcons. Just wish it didn't have anything to do with a stupid prophecy theme but that's my personal bias... hate prophetic crap unless it's well rounded in hard sci fi and not fantasy.

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Originally Posted by Einharjar

People challanged me on this for the longest time during the BW days, that I saw Kerrigan as an Overmind replacement. In BW, the Zerg were purely animal, sentient and intelligent, but still animal. Thus, by logic; the Overmind might've seen where Kerrigan was an "evolution" possibility over itself and better for the Zerg species as a whole. And this is all that matters. The Overmind even quotes this in BW, referring to Kerrigan's "will" to Daggoth and Zasz when the two show their displeasure of her actions. Despite her being an individual and reckless, she will do what it takes for the Zerg species as a whole. That is precisely what any animal would do for it's kin.

And now, with the Retcon; the idea that Kerrigan was a replacement for the Overmind is actually a true possibility. It knew it needed to die to sever Amon's link. It might've known that it was supposed to Die at Auir anyway; as per Amon's plan to reduce to the Zerg to their feral state and be otherwise, worthless. So it needed a replacement. TADA! Conveniently... there is this race of Terrans who has Psionics in it's blood, just in an infant state. So he finds the best Psionic they have to offer, Kerrigan; and uses her to continue it's will for his Kind. Survival.

So what do you konw... something good out've all these retcons. Just wish it didn't have anything to do with a stupid prophecy theme but that's my personal bias... hate prophetic crap unless it's well rounded in hard sci fi and not fantasy.

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In some ways I can see that, but it's really hard to know just WHAT Kerrigan was trying to evolve the Zerg into before the whole prophecy concept came into focus. Perhaps in that essence, it can still be the case, where she would feel once Amon is beaten, she'll take the swarm and leave the sector to look after them.

However, she WOULD continue to keep an eye on the Korpulu Sector in the event problems arise, as she would continue to protect Raynor in any way she can. Which, could just be the case if Stukov's theory of the UED's return happens.

I'm still not sure if the Overmind killed itself on purpose on Aiur or not, it certainly could have and no one knew it. But the fact remains that the Overmind's plan fell slightly short of expectations. I don't think it had expected Amon's influence to still affect Kerrigan.

During BW, Kerrigan had little vision still so I'm not going to say she even knew what her purpose would've been.
Lets [for the sake of being nerds and enjoying theory-crafting] assume prophecy never took place and the Overmind didn't really intend to die; but wanted at least a successor to it. Would Kerrigan have known? Judging from SC1 and BW dialogue, no. However the quotes from Mr. Overmind to his subordinates regarding Kerrigan's attitude show that it made damn well sure that Kerrigan was "For the Swarm" and ONLY "For the Swarm". So even without the prophecy, I thought back then that Kerrigan was a successor and that SC2 was to show the come to fruition. The whole "Brood War" section of her life was simply a "rise to power" situation. I, being some one who favors the Zerg, wanted to her to win at all costs because I was trying to think from the Overmind's perspective. When she won and took over the whole Swarm, I was giddy with pride and felt pretty convinced that her success was what the Overmind wanted.
Now, Kerrigan herself had much to learn. She was still an individual in many ways and driven by malice and revenge. However over time, she'd start to change; become all the wiser.

Now with the Prophecy in place, it simply reinforces that fact because of the WoL Zeratul missions. Kerrigan was created on purpose. Her role was preordaned too and the Overmind saw to it that she would have a chance to fullfill that role.



On the Overmind's actions - I'd only say it killed itself on purpose if the Amon taint thing is more fleshed out. I don't think it's very strong of a motivator for the story to say "Raging within it's own mind, it sought suicide from it's mental captivity and purposely struck out at Auir before it was ready in order to end it's suffering".
Yeah. No.
That's actually rather weak for the Overmind's character and is even against it's character. Instead, letting Kerrigan sit on Char, away from death and letting itself fall as basically "a sacrifice" as planned, making Amon think that it fell trying to defeat the Protoss like he wanted would be far more intelligent, fills a few holes and fits the Overmind's character.
So if this is the case, it wasn't so much an on purpose thing, so much as it was "I'm accepting my fate, for it is best for our race." while simultaneously giving Amon the middle finger.

- - - Updated - - -

During BW, Kerrigan had little vision still so I'm not going to say she even knew what her purpose would've been.
Lets [for the sake of being nerds and enjoying theory-crafting] assume prophecy never took place and the Overmind didn't really intend to die; but wanted at least a successor to it. Would Kerrigan have known? Judging from SC1 and BW dialogue, no. However the quotes from Mr. Overmind to his subordinates regarding Kerrigan's attitude show that it made damn well sure that Kerrigan was "For the Swarm" and ONLY "For the Swarm". So even without the prophecy, I thought back then that Kerrigan was a successor and that SC2 was to show the come to fruition. The whole "Brood War" section of her life was simply a "rise to power" situation. I, being some one who favors the Zerg, wanted to her to win at all costs because I was trying to think from the Overmind's perspective. When she won and took over the whole Swarm, I was giddy with pride and felt pretty convinced that her success was what the Overmind wanted.
Now, Kerrigan herself had much to learn. She was still an individual in many ways and driven by malice and revenge. However over time, she'd start to change; become all the wiser.

Now with the Prophecy in place, it simply reinforces that fact because of the WoL Zeratul missions. Kerrigan was created on purpose. Her role was preordaned too and the Overmind saw to it that she would have a chance to fullfill that role.



On the Overmind's actions - I'd only say it killed itself on purpose if the Amon taint thing is more fleshed out. I don't think it's very strong of a motivator for the story to say "Raging within it's own mind, it sought suicide from it's mental captivity and purposely struck out at Auir before it was ready in order to end it's suffering".
Yeah. No.
That's actually rather weak for the Overmind's character and is even against it's character. Instead, letting Kerrigan sit on Char, away from death and letting itself fall as basically "a sacrifice" as planned, making Amon think that it fell trying to defeat the Protoss like he wanted would be far more intelligent, fills a few holes and fits the Overmind's character.
So if this is the case, it wasn't so much an on purpose thing, so much as it was "I'm accepting my fate, for it is best for our race." while simultaneously giving Amon the middle finger.

Yeah but Amon isn't fleshed out, not yet anyways. Hence why I don't want his saga to conclude with just LotV, it seems too short.

And yeah I can see what you mean by accepting its fate, but the fact still stands did it even know his plan would fall short due to Amon's influence on Kerrigan. If yes, that's another matter.

Kerrigan's learning from her arrogance was already seen all the way back in the Dark Templar Saga twilight, when Ulrezaj simply teleported away from her in the Xel'Naga caverns, while she was too confidence she had him trapped. That event there showed she still had plenty to learn about the powers the Protoss wield, since Ulrezaj demonstrated abilities she didn't think were possible.

Ok fine Ulrezaj was more powerful than the other Dark Templar, but still.

As for the whole prophecy, I would say her role was preordained THAT SOON. It only happened when the Overmind found the terran species.

This is what makes things frustrating, especially ever since I read Devil's Due:

If you recall, Raynor's father explained to him that it's the choices that make the man. But with this prophecy, it almost seems like no one ever had any choices to begin with, everything had long since been determined for them.

That being said, you could also argue that Kerrigan CHOSE to fight Amon when she didn't have to, but still.

In SC BW, there was no evidence of a Taint so back then? No, it didn't seem to have known anything was odd besides wanting to make sure that Kerrigan survived incased it died.

But in SC2, it knows of the taint. It was a pure gamble. This is where the Prophetic thing starts to get super super weak becaue like you said, even Amon isn't fleshed out. It's all very very weak.
The Overmind figured out it's actions were being manipulated well before it arrived at Koprulu. It had all that time to secretly plan a way to save the Zerg from Amon. When it found Kerrigan, it knew even Kerrigan would gain the taint. There fore letting itself die so that the Brood Wars happen grants Kerrigan a chance to remove most of the Taint. She has to kill the Cerebrates to control the Swarm. So she does. At this point, the only one left tainted is her. So the Overmind, having left his individuality some what intact and thus, she's able to act on information that even Overmind might not have? Has a chance to even remove the taint from herself.
If you think about it, if Kerrigan didn't get so fatalistic and be all "Yup... I'm going to die, along with all the Zerg, fighting Amon. but that's my place" she could've actually done Raynor's job herself.
She was searching for the Artifact... why?
Because maybe she was going to do it by herself? Maybe the whole "lets attack the Dominion" was more of a "Run Jim, stay away from me while I'm still a monster" and a "Run while still can, Arcturus" while she went spelunking for the very device that could cure her Taint.

Who knows.

All we do know, was that so long as Amon, Psionics and this Prophecy remains so shallow; we can only guess that the Overmind made one hell of a calculated gamble. It placed all it's bets on Kerrigan to find a way to save the Zerg. It mattered not if it knew how that gamble went either... for it died on Auir. It just knew that, it gave it's kind a chance. That's all that mattered. Again, think on it from an instinct view.

Well the one thing Narud was right about was that she feared its power. The searching for the relic was asked at Blizzcon 2011. Metzen said this is because Kerrigan knew Amon would win, but she wanted the Zerg to go out in a blaze of glory, and not have the terrans and Protoss challenge that. If they got the relic, they'd interfere with that plan.

I understand your POV from pure instinct, but that's not the way Kerrigan saw it. Even after the primal infestation and she's been remade down to the DNA, she's still a primal Zerg/terran hybrid. She's nothing like what the Overmind was in thinking PURELY in instinct and the need for survival.

That's the difference in real life in why animals have to be TRAINED to thinking beyond the survival instinct, while human beings don't need the same kind of push.

So yes, you can say that Kerrigan was still thinking of survival and what not, there's more to it than that. This is why I still believe if Amon never HAD been revived in HotS, she seriously would have considered leaving after Mengsk was taken care of. Over the course of the game she hinted at Zagara being the successor, after all.

Don't forget, instinct or no instinct, Kerrigan never wanted this role in the first place. She didn't even want any psionic powers. Granted she had reveled in the power the Zerg have given her, but for the primal infestation, it was all about revenge on Mengsk, and then to rescue Raynor. It was never PURELY about Amon, Kerrigan didn't even care until the battle with Narud, in which she realized this could no longer be ignored.

This is why I don't believe in the whole instinct matter. I always felt she was trying to evolve the Zerg to become something more than just acting on pure instinct. The broodmothers were examples of trying to put traces of humanity in them, even if it's twisted.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

Well the one thing Narud was right about was that she feared its power. The searching for the relic was asked at Blizzcon 2011. Metzen said this is because Kerrigan knew Amon would win, but she wanted the Zerg to go out in a blaze of glory, and not have the terrans and Protoss challenge that. If they got the relic, they'd interfere with that plan.

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Two things. One, this is what I meant by Metzen not having much merit over his universe. She fears the artifact so she attempts to find it; only to shaft AMON because she's a sore loser? -.- I don't think so... But hey, I'm not the creative director.
Two, she feared it, but why? With this whole Amon influencing crap like some subtle manipulative 13 year old Teenage Daughter, then perhaps she only feared it because her tainted self was made to feel threatened by it; hm? I mean if the Overmind was made to think what it was told by the influence, whos to say that the taint within Kerrigan (which every one agrees she would've had as the QoB because she was wraught from within the tainting Hive Mind) influenced her to feel depressed, fatalistic and fearful of her only means of salvation...
This entirely hinges on what the hell the Artifact was even truly for. I know you've stated your speculations of it; but I don't feel those assertions add up so far. Again, Blizzard is very vague on an important plot device that we're forced to suffer as suspension of disbelief.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

Don't forget, instinct or no instinct, Kerrigan never wanted this role in the first place. She didn't even want any psionic powers. Granted she had reveled in the power the Zerg have given her, but for the primal infestation, it was all about revenge on Mengsk, and then to rescue Raynor. It was never PURELY about Amon, Kerrigan didn't even care until the battle with Narud, in which she realized this could no longer be ignored.

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This statement could even support my thoughts.
For one, never wanting what she currently has can be given to everyone probably. You think Zeratul wanted to be involved in this whole prophetic mess? You think he wanted to kill his own Matriarch? You think Raynor is ever really going to get over the fact that his GF is like the Zerg Jesus and savior of the universe? Probably not! That point in kind'a moot. Sorry. No one want's war, death or suffering unless you're selfish enough to only focus on you or instinctual enough to realize it's what's best for your children.
Second, by instinct alone your point about her drive/reasons wouldn't have been entirely about Amon anyway. Instinct has nothing to do with bias or any relative subject involving rivals. It's all about logical assertions and outcomes. Will this benefit my well being? Will it permit me to still breed? Will I survive? Will my offspring survive?
It matters not to the whole of the Zerg who or even WHAT Amon is, just that his eradication is paramount to the Zerg's survival. If there is any balls left on Metzen and his writing crew, they will not have erased so much of BW and the Overmind's character as to remove the very "will" that the Overmind imposed on her for her purpose. She was special for that reason. She's an individual, but whole heartedly, ZERG. That's only reason why she even cares about the damned species is because she's Zerg; on the deepest level - courtesy of the Overmind.
Yes, she's still an individual. Yes, she'll still have human concepts of revenge, love, lust and hatred. But she's also Zerg. I see no point in reducing her character to just "A human dressed as a Zerg biatch doing human things". She's better off being Human, forced to accept that she's now also Zerg and has to care for both. Reducing her to just "it was all for Raynor" is incredibly one dimensional and destroys any depth she has left.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

This is why I don't believe in the whole instinct matter. I always felt she was trying to evolve the Zerg to become something more than just acting on pure instinct. The brood mothers were examples of trying to put traces of humanity in them, even if it's twisted.

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You're over thinking the Instinct. Refer to my quote above. Instinct is all about the results, and if a little individual level thinking will prevent another "Amon" taint issue from happening again? Then it falls inline with the logic. Like I said in the PM, instinct is simple. It's that simplicity that makes it so important.

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Originally Posted by Einharjar

Two things. One, this is what I meant by Metzen not having much merit over his universe. She fears the artifact so she attempts to find it; only to shaft AMON because she's a sore loser? -.- I don't think so... But hey, I'm not the creative director.
Two, she feared it, but why? With this whole Amon influencing crap like some subtle manipulative 13 year old Teenage Daughter, then perhaps she only feared it because her tainted self was made to feel threatened by it; hm? I mean if the Overmind was made to think what it was told by the influence, whos to say that the taint within Kerrigan (which every one agrees she would've had as the QoB because she was wraught from within the tainting Hive Mind) influenced her to feel depressed, fatalistic and fearful of her only means of salvation...
This entirely hinges on what the hell the Artifact was even truly for. I know you've stated your speculations of it; but I don't feel those assertions add up so far. Again, Blizzard is very vague on an important plot device that we're forced to suffer as suspension of disbelief.

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Yeah I know what you mean. Even the way Narud used it probably wasn't its designed purpose. Another possibility is maybe the other Xel'Naga knew Amon would corrupt the Zerg, hence the need for the artifact. Now, as to why it's only thousands and not millions of years old, it's possible that not ALL the Xel'Naga were killed by the Zerg. Amon only THOUGHT he killed them all.

You're right in that I'm not seeing why Kerrigan wanted the artifact, unless she really felt there was some way for the artifact to boost her power even more. But then, I don't think she really understood how the Xel'Naga worked.

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Originally Posted by Einharjar

This statement could even support my thoughts.
For one, never wanting what she currently has can be given to everyone probably. You think Zeratul wanted to be involved in this whole prophetic mess? You think he wanted to kill his own Matriarch? You think Raynor is ever really going to get over the fact that his GF is like the Zerg Jesus and savior of the universe? Probably not! That point in kind'a moot. Sorry. No one want's war, death or suffering unless you're selfish enough to only focus on you or instinctual enough to realize it's what's best for your children.
Second, by instinct alone your point about her drive/reasons wouldn't have been entirely about Amon anyway. Instinct has nothing to do with bias or any relative subject involving rivals. It's all about logical assertions and outcomes. Will this benefit my well being? Will it permit me to still breed? Will I survive? Will my offspring survive?
It matters not to the whole of the Zerg who or even WHAT Amon is, just that his eradication is paramount to the Zerg's survival. If there is any balls left on Metzen and his writing crew, they will not have erased so much of BW and the Overmind's character as to remove the very "will" that the Overmind imposed on her for her purpose. She was special for that reason. She's an individual, but whole heartedly, ZERG. That's only reason why she even cares about the damned species is because she's Zerg; on the deepest level - courtesy of the Overmind.
Yes, she's still an individual. Yes, she'll still have human concepts of revenge, love, lust and hatred. But she's also Zerg. I see no point in reducing her character to just "A human dressed as a Zerg biatch doing human things". She's better off being Human, forced to accept that she's now also Zerg and has to care for both. Reducing her to just "it was all for Raynor" is incredibly one dimensional and destroys any depth she has left.

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Of course not with the not wanting things, but Amon's actions forced everyone to react. Also, I'm not saying to reduce it to "all for Raynor" and all that. When the two of them first met in the SoK, they fought for the liberty of the sector. THAT, if you think about it, was kind of what Kerrigan was telling Izsha right before "The Reckoning". Izsha was confused why Kerrigan wanted the terran race to benefit, since it means nothing to the swarm. In some ways, this was like her original goal from back at the beginning, prior to infestation.

Forced to care for both is nothing new, Raynor had to do the same thing when he was helping with the evacuation of Aiur with Fenix. Granted Kerrigan has a more complex role, but the principle is still similar. That is why my hope is once Amon is beaten, Kerrigan can evolve the Zerg to a point where they wouldn't threaten the terrans and Protoss anymore, as there's been enough bloodshed.

I'm not saying not caring for the swarm is the right thing to do, I'm simply saying you can't reduce her to killing everything in sight to get to Amon and not caring AT ALL of what happens to the terran and Protoss species. If that happened, then WoL would be COMPLETELY useless since the influence removal changed nothing.

As for your part of the simplicity, that I understand, and you can argue the terran and Protoss methods tend to overthink things, but some things are simply not MEANT to be that simple of a picture. Kerrigan's actions in waging this war against Amon is just that. If she thinks she can just go in blind with no knowledge of what Amon can do, it's not going to work.

And THAT would be one of the lessons the swarm needs to learn: even the "overwhelming numbers" advantage has its limitations.

The lesson is that the Hive Mind has it's limits and that the conflict with Amon will prove they needed to evolve to over come that weakness. Kerrigan was the source of that evolution. She brought levels of individual sentience back into the Swarm, passed down to the Brood Mothers. She's making the Zerg far less susceptible to another "Amon" plot as a result.

Leaving the Terran's and Protoss alone isn't supportive of Zerg instincts; though the Terrans really are of no other use and could be just left behind. The idea that Kerrigan will leave them be is because she is still, deep down, Sarah Kerrigan. She has to care for BOTH.
Making the Swarm into what it's going to be, fighting off Amon and realizing her place is for the Zerg. However, she's still allowed human feelings and thus forcing the Zerg to stay away from Terrans and Protoss is only natural. It's sympathy; something the Zerg don't possess and never will; but so long as she's alive? She will.

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Originally Posted by Einharjar

Leaving the Terran's and Protoss alone isn't supportive of Zerg instincts; though the Terrans really are of no other use and could be just left behind. The idea that Kerrigan will leave them be is because she is still, deep down, Sarah Kerrigan. She has to care for BOTH.
Making the Swarm into what it's going to be, fighting off Amon and realizing her place is for the Zerg. However, she's still allowed human feelings and thus forcing the Zerg to stay away from Terrans and Protoss is only natural. It's sympathy; something the Zerg don't possess and never will; but so long as she's alive? She will.

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And this could be EXACTLY the problem the Protoss will face in LotV, assuming they can see Kerrigan would still care for the terran race: it doesn't mean a thing to THEM, they're on their own against Amon.

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Shouldn't Abathur already have all the genetic engineering knowledge of Amon, who has been "dead" ever since the xel'naga were destroyed? Or maybe I'm just not grasping what they mean by "micro scale". All genetic engineering is micro-scale. You either manipulate the nucleotides to suit your purposes, or you don't.

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What if it's super micro-scale though?

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Originally Posted by solidsamurai

What if it's super micro-scale though?

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How small you want it to be?

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Originally Posted by solidsamurai

What if it's super micro-scale though?

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Well lets see, we've got a few options here.

We have cellular level
We have molecular level
We have Atomic level and then
We have Quantum level...

Now for manipulating DNA? That's on the Molecular level, not sure how much more "micro" you can get. So, what, Abathur is refering to Maybe Atmoic? I doubt it. Even worse; Quantum? Then Stukov should be some sort of Intra-dimensional Super Being if what ever made him so special had anything to do with how was constructed from the Quantum level on up... and at that rate? Bio-engineering isn't the Profession anymore... it's very well past that...

- - - Updated - - -

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Originally Posted by solidsamurai

What if it's super micro-scale though?

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Well lets see, we've got a few options here.

We have cellular level
We have molecular level
We have Atomic level and then
We have Quantum level...

Now for manipulating DNA? That's on the Molecular level, not sure how much more "micro" you can get. So, what, Abathur is refering to Maybe Atmoic? I doubt it. Even worse; Quantum? Then Stukov should be some sort of Intra-dimensional Super Being if what ever made him so special had anything to do with how was constructed from the Quantum level on up... and at that rate? Bio-engineering isn't the Profession anymore... it's very well past that...

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Originally Posted by Einharjar

Well lets see, we've got a few options here.

We have cellular level
We have molecular level
We have Atomic level and then
We have Quantum level...

Now for manipulating DNA? That's on the Molecular level, not sure how much more "micro" you can get. So, what, Abathur is refering to Maybe Atmoic? I doubt it. Even worse; Quantum? Then Stukov should be some sort of Intra-dimensional Super Being if what ever made him so special had anything to do with how was constructed from the Quantum level on up... and at that rate? Bio-engineering isn't the Profession anymore... it's very well past that...

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The problem is that after the primal infestation, Kerrigan told Abathur that she's too complex for him to understand. This seems to indicate that Abathur only understands down to the cellular level, but that makes no sense as he can spin genetic strands, which means he can understand all the way down to the DNA.

But I'm not convinced the pool can remake a person all the way down to the atomic level. It's a spawning pool, not nanotechnology.

Jeez you guys, this got out of hand quickly. :p

Gimme a chance to back up here a little.

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Originally Posted by Einharjar

No, Khaydarin is everywhere

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Yeah, I know that. I was just correcting what you said about what happened in the Overmind campaign. You said there were two crystals used to manifest the Overmind when it was only one; one that was harvested by a drone from a Khaydarin mound located on Aiur.

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Originally Posted by Einharjar

Well, an excuse could be made to say, that he influenced the Overmind to be over Zealous and misjudge it's progress versus the Protoss on purpose, so that it would be destroyed.

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Yeah, all I see from whatever happens now in Sc are just "excuses" for things to happen.

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Originally Posted by Einharjar

Amon could've known of Tassadar's power as well as other things. Maybe he knew of the Nazerim as well so he knew wielders of Void energy could come and destroy the Overmind; thus rendering the Zerg Swarm inert and useless; ready for Amon to use for whatever he wished. Since he is Xel'naga, it'd be stupid of them to not give Amon knowledge of the Protoss since his race last knew them. He should be aware of their potential to destroy the Overmind; something unique to them as there is no other race available currently in the Lore.

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Given that Amon is a Xel'Naga and that they created the Overmind, Amon wouldn't even need to go through the convolution of hoping to force a meeting with Nerazim (which have yet to exist at that point in time) to kill it for him because he would also have the necessary information to kill the Overmind on the spot. Why risk sending it on it's merry way to cross the breadth of the galaxy gaining incredible strength whilst doing so and risk having it destroy the necessary Protoss (which it really almost succeeded) it needs to revive later on if all it really wanted was the Zerg/Overmind to die? I can understand that Amon won't care if the Overmind does end up dying on it's quest but to say that Amon only really wanted the Overmind to commit suicide from the beginning makes less sense than the actual retcon of Amon forcing the Overmind to kill Protoss.

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Originally Posted by Einharjar

He couldn't just "kill the Overmind sooner" because there is specifically no stated race between Zerus and the K-Sector that was psionic. The Overmind was heading straight for Auir; if it had encountered any beings along the way that were Psionic, I'm sure the Overmind would've made a note about it and wouldn't have had such a hard on for Terran Ghosts... I think you're jumping the gun here...

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Yeah, but you've outright stated that the Overmind was pretty much useless to Amon from the get-go and was pretty much ready for it and the Zerg to die immediately since they have no psionic value. Since Amon only really needs the psionic energy of the Protoss to revive, it can get rid of the Zerg at any time. Why would Amon potentially ruin his own plans by sending the Overmind/Zerg to kill the Protoss before the Hybrids come online to suck all that precious psionic energy it needs to revive?

There is no way one could ever spin the Overmind's death in Sc1 as being one of suicide and have that make sense or be palatable. The Overmind realised that it didn't need Kerrigan to help it assault Aiur because it knew that the Protoss there (no Dark Templar) were actually powerless against it due to, you know, reading Zeratul's (a friggin Dark Templar who happens to know a lot of about current Protoss social dynamics) mind. Kerrigan was not shafted or being sheltered away on Char. She was left with the most important job of all! That was the killing of the one thing that could harm the Overmind: the Dark Templar and guess what? She failed, implying that she is not the bestest, perfect being in the universe... To think the Overmind went to Aiur to suicide would imply that he'd also knew that somehow the Protoss would, I don't know, be able to have some messiah who was able to combine the opposing energies of their disparate people, return to Aiur at the right time, reach it and kill it. That's strange, because that's exactly how Sc1 turned out! :rolleyes: What a coincidence, right? No, that's just asinine troll logic.

Whatever way it turns out, Blizz is constantly shifting the goal posts of what motivates what such that any definitive answer is still going to be met with puzzled frowns.

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Originally Posted by Einharjar

Again, I'm not sure if I just wrote it wrong (I could have. I can write complete jibberish at times) but I fail to see the problem here.

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What you wrote did not naturally suggest what you just went on to explain, hence my initial attempt to clarify.

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Originally Posted by Einharjar

I'm assuming he sped up his "plans" (the progress he was referring to) because if it were to be true, that the Overmind was basically framed to fail - then it's purpose for dying was to prevent the prophecy of a Zerg Savior. Duran, in BW then, having seen this savior basically went "oh shit, it didn't work... " and started seeding his "Many many worlds" in a hastily manner. Thus he employed the help of a corrupt Dictator who would harbor such odd things and used him to help "speed" up the seeding process.

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If Duran meant "plans" when he said "progress" he would have said exactly that because those two words mean completely different things. As to the purpose of the Overmind being being made to die as "to prevent the prophecy of the Zerg saviour", this calls into the question again of why not kill it from the start and why even loose the Overmind to give it a chance (no matter how insignificantly remote the possibility) of rebelling at all? Amon and Duran could've have just indefinitely kept both the Zerg and the Protoss apart, slowly collected samples from each and quietly make their Hybrids until the day they had enough to suck the psionics out of the Protoss to revive Amon and no-one would be the wiser.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Given that Amon is a Xel'Naga and that they created the Overmind, Amon wouldn't even need to go through the convolution of hoping to force a meeting with Nerazim (which have yet to exist at that point in time) to kill it for him because he would also have the necessary information to kill the Overmind on the spot. Why risk sending it on it's merry way to cross the breadth of the galaxy gaining incredible strength whilst doing so and risk having it destroy the necessary Protoss (which it really almost succeeded) it needs to revive later on if all it really wanted was the Zerg/Overmind to die? I can understand that Amon won't care if the Overmind does end up dying on it's quest but to say that Amon only really wanted the Overmind to commit suicide from the beginning makes less sense than the actual retcon of Amon forcing the Overmind to kill Protoss.

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I don't think Amon WANTED the Overmind to die, it just didn't EXPECT it. Remember how the original Zerg command structure worked: the Cerebrates can't exist without an Overmind. Therefore, if it died, the whole swarm would fracture and go feral. It was only by the end of the BW and the death of the 2nd Overmind that the command structure changed because Kerrigan could control the whole of the swarm by herself.

if by that time the Nerazim didn't exist just yet, it's possible that Amon felt there's no way for the Overmind to be killed because the Khala energies don't work against it.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

There is no way one could ever spin the Overmind's death in Sc1 as being one of suicide and have that make sense or be palatable. The Overmind realised that it didn't need Kerrigan to help it assault Aiur because it knew that the Protoss there (no Dark Templar) were actually powerless against it due to, you know, reading Zeratul's (a friggin Dark Templar who happens to know a lot of about current Protoss social dynamics) mind. Kerrigan was not shafted or being sheltered away on Char. She was left with the most important job of all! That was the killing of the one thing that could harm the Overmind: the Dark Templar and guess what? She failed, implying that she is not the bestest, perfect being in the universe... To think the Overmind went to Aiur to suicide would imply that he'd also knew that somehow the Protoss would, I don't know, be able to have some messiah who was able to combine the opposing energies of their disparate people, return to Aiur at the right time, reach it and kill it. That's strange, because that's exactly how Sc1 turned out! What a coincidence, right? No, that's just asinine troll logic.

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It's not whether it needed Kerrigan during the assault on Aiur or not, it needed her to stay on Char so Amon can't see the threat she posed. As for the part of killing the Dark Templar that could harm the Overmind, that's still hard to say. If the Overmind planned for her to change the swarm's command structure, then its plan would have been to deal with the Dark Templar only AFTER its death, not BEFORE.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

If Duran meant "plans" when he said "progress" he would have said exactly that because those two words mean completely different things. As to the purpose of the Overmind being being made to die as "to prevent the prophecy of the Zerg saviour", this calls into the question again of why not kill it from the start and why even loose the Overmind to give it a chance (no matter how insignificantly remote the possibility) of rebelling at all? Amon and Duran could've have just indefinitely kept both the Zerg and the Protoss apart, slowly collected samples from each and quietly make their Hybrids until the day they had enough to suck the psionics out of the Protoss to revive Amon and no-one would be the wiser.

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This is perhaps a flaw in Amon's corruption. Even if Amon had known of the terran species by the time he corrupted the Overmind, he didn't expect them to pose much of a threat. Assuming he really did, maybe the details of the corruption aren't clear in that he didn't know after he passes away, the Overmind could find a crack, however small, in the control directive.

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Well lets see, we've got a few options here.

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Didn't realize I was joking, eh?

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It's a spawning pool, not nanotechnology.

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Unless you've somehow created robotic protons and electrons to create perfectly controlled reactions, nano-tech is molecular. I don't believe you can manipulate objects at an atomic level, without going straight to quantum level.

Also, DNA is just a molecule that's being manipulated, so spinning helixes out of strands of DNA is creating new genetic codes. Not DNA molecules from scratch. I don't know why you'd need to create DNA from scratch, unless blizzard wants to hand-wave it as super DNA, or something.

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We have cellular level
We have molecular level
We have Atomic level and then
We have Quantum level...

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Quanta aren't directly measured, so I'd say the energy level is more minute than the atomic level. Energy forms into atoms, after all (strong nuclear force, etc.).

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Originally Posted by solidsamurai

Unless you've somehow created robotic protons and electrons to create perfectly controlled reactions, nano-tech is molecular. I don't believe you can manipulate objects at an atomic level, without going straight to quantum level.

Also, DNA is just a molecule that's being manipulated, so spinning helixes out of strands of DNA is creating new genetic codes. Not DNA molecules from scratch. I don't know why you'd need to create DNA from scratch, unless blizzard wants to hand-wave it as super DNA, or something.

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Well either way the point is Xel'Naga tech has the ability to manipulate things beyond our understanding. If you had looked at the lore for Protoss tech, they're largely reversed engineered from Xel'Naga technology, although still inferior to theirs.

In addition if you had read Stetmann's notes in WoL about his Protoss tech studies, it's that Protoss technology seems somewhat sentient, almost like it's alive or something.

If that's true, the Xel'Naga tech certainly WOULD be sentient and alive. By terran standards, this would be the equivalent of mixing magic with technology, and there have been VERY few cases with you can mix the two of them and have a good outcome...

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

I don't think Amon WANTED the Overmind to die, it just didn't EXPECT it.

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I'm challenging Ein's assertion that Amon's whole plan with the Overmind was that it wanted the Overmind to die. The above is a possible "out" but just like all of our own fanon reasons, any "real" explanations given by Blizz for their retcons (if at all) will not sound any less like an evasion or reinterpretation of past things.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

Remember how the original Zerg command structure worked: the Cerebrates can't exist without an Overmind.

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They worked fine taking over Shakuras even when the Zerg there were supposed to be feral and that the 2nd Overmind was nowhere near at the height of the original.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

It's possible that Amon felt there's no way for the Overmind to be killed because the Khala energies don't work against it.

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That's a convenient excuse given that void energy is perhaps older and has probably existed even prior to the Protoss only for it to be tapped by the Nerazim later when they were denied any other source. Amon could've summoned this void energy then to kill it because the Overmind has some void energy within it, too (it's the explanation the Overmind gives as the reason why the Dark Templar are able to harm it in Sc1). This is the problem you get when you have all powerful, ancient and extremely knowledgeable villains that are even more powerful, ancient and extremely knowledgeable (Amon) than the previous one (Overmind). He has to have a convenient gap in his knowledge which is so basic and something that they should be expected to know and then expect the audience to swallow it as being "realistic" for that universe.

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

It's not whether it needed Kerrigan during the assault on Aiur or not, it needed her to stay on Char so Amon can't see the threat she posed. As for the part of killing the Dark Templar that could harm the Overmind, that's still hard to say. If the Overmind planned for her to change the swarm's command structure, then its plan would have been to deal with the Dark Templar only AFTER its death, not BEFORE.

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Careful about that hindsight bias. I'm talking from the perspective and knowledge we obtain in Sc1 only. That so-called plot hole of the "Overmind leaving Kerrigan on Char to attack Aiur and then die was a stupid move" is not really a plot-hole at all. It is doubtful Kerrigan would have done much anyway to help the Overmind on Aiur since a) it was already winning on Aiur and b) she failed in her own task of eliminating the Dark Templar. Lastly, that position of "the Overmind being dumb to go to Aiur alone" is an opinion based from hindsight bias because if the Overmind hadn't died (ie: as in Kerrigan doing her job on Char properly), it would've been labelled as a tactical genius. Go figure...

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Originally Posted by ragnarok

This is perhaps a flaw in Amon's corruption. Even if Amon had known of the terran species by the time he corrupted the Overmind, he didn't expect them to pose much of a threat. Assuming he really did, maybe the details of the corruption aren't clear in that he didn't know after he passes away, the Overmind could find a crack, however small, in the control directive.

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This would imply he's conveniently blind of the prophecy? How come the comparatively "lowly" Overmind was able to see Amon's weakness (which Amon itself reveals in that vision) and Amon could not? Oh, that's right the vision's fake. Or is it? Some people think it's real and that the information it gives is gospel. And that wishy-washy nonsensical directive thing - hasn't Amon read those rules to being an effective evil overlord? I guess that if Amon was so sloppy there, then he's bound to fail on any bigger venture. Jeez, what a mess....