Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Pulling out the "it's your fault for not reading/knowing some unknown and non-descript fluff that most people don't care for or thought existed" excuse, I see.
Besides, it's one thing to say that the Overmind lucked in receiving a gift in the form of Kerrigan (which alone can be criticised for being a contrived coincidence), but to say that she also happened to be the one human who could only be properly infested because of some vague and obligatory specialness, who also happened to be a psionic, who also happened to be the best and most powerful psionic ever, who also happens to be the prophesied saviour of the Zerg but also happens to be the linchpin for Duran's plan for reviving Amon in time to have the story of Sc2 just swings that BS meter way into the red.
Hey I didn't say it's a GREAT excuse, but it's a hell of a lot better than if Blizzard says, "I didn't think of that."
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Ok. So what you're saying is that Duran "sped up" quote about Kerrigan is that it's got nothing to do with helping or encouraging him to wake the Hybrids faster nor find the artifact sooner but rather that the mere existence of infested Kerrigan alone is an assumed potential quantity of having sped up his progress once he gets either enough Hybrids awoken or the artifact found. That's like saying that the presence of light (psionic energy) will speed up the progress of photosynthesis in a plant (waking Amon) once it has time to grow sufficient roots and leaves (Hybrid creation) and finds sources of water and CO2 (psionic entities with which the artifact pieces render down); which is ridiculous because the process cannot even start, let alone be described as "speeding up", without all the other components and that the speed of the process is actually dependent on the limiting factors of equally important components, not one.
Well look at it this way: Duran never said a thing about the hybrids awakening faster.
Now, on the other hand, you CAN argue that Duran's actions with Mengsk to create hybrids was to speed up the process. Yes, you can say that hybrid creating is beyond terran technology, but that's only HALF true.
Look at Project Gestalt by Dr. Bergess, which created Terran/Protoss hybrids. It means Dominion technology had the POTENTIAL to create those hybrids.
Here's what I think could be a possibility: In Dark Origin, Zeratul had discovered terran technology trying to manipulate and control Protoss technology for the hybrid creation. If that's true, then Protoss technology might be advanced enough to create hybrids, and if terran technology could be used to control that, the rest is self explanatory.
Thus Duran/Narud told Mengsk of ways to control the Protoss technology via terran technology.
Either that or it had something to do with the Xel'Naga temples in the lower labs of Skygeirr. Maybe those were built by Amon, with instructions of WANTING whoever stumbled across it to succeed with the hybrid making, and not realize it would be their undoing. If you had played any of the Dead Space games, it's a similar concept.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Maybe the secret to generate more similar wormholes. Whatever.
Maybe, if only Blizzard would explain.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I'm a little perturbed that you've given the idea even a hint of serious thought...
Don't be stupid, I'm not giving it a thought, I'm already helping at least 4 different authors with their fic on fanfiction.net for the post HotS storylines, many of them wanted to continue their relationship. And since 3 of them are of an M rating, I'm sure you know EXACTLY where this is going.
Trust me Turalyon, I'm tired of all the crap I hear from battlnet that they deserve to roast in hell. You can make the story as sci-fi as you want, I just want a GOOD ending for them, it doesn't have to be a live happily ever after version.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Some people think the domination effect is telekinetic i.e. Nova actually moved the legs/weapons/fingers on the unit herself. In which case it would be different than Raszagal's mind control, and certainly not something Kerrigan could maintain from lightyears away.
Which is what exactly? I think HoTS pretty much put the last nail in the love story coffin ironically. Given that Blizzard will never condone the implication of monster-on-human intercourse, and Kerrigan tells us that she still wants to continue leading the swarm, it's quite unlikely that they'll end up "together". I still believe it's not too late for Raynor to live up to his promise and put a bullet in her head.
Yeah but Blizzard never put the details of how Kerrigan corrupted Raszagal. I'm willing to bet they won't explain the details either just because they're lazy.
She didn't really say she wanted to continue leading the swarm, she DID hint of setting Zagara up as her successor.
For example, if Amon was never revived in HotS, Kerrigan might have considered leaving right away once the Zerg have more free will and all that.
As for your part of Raynor shooting her, I can still see that, but he'd do it only as a last resort.
Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
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Yeah but Blizzard never put the details of how Kerrigan corrupted Raszagal. I'm willing to bet they won't explain the details either just because they're lazy.
I believe there was a hint given in the Brood War manual in Raszagal's biography, as it implied her she may gradually be losing control over her vast psionic potential. I take this to mean Kerrigan may have used Raszagal's own potential against her to make her a thrall.
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Yeah but Blizzard never put the details of how Kerrigan corrupted Raszagal. I'm willing to bet they won't explain the details either just because they're lazy.
I believe there was a hint given in the Brood War manual in Raszagal's biography, as it implied her she may gradually be losing control over her vast psionic potential. I take this to mean Kerrigan may have used Raszagal's own potential against her to make her a thrall.
Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
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Originally Posted by
Visions of Khas
I believe there was a hint given in the Brood War manual in Raszagal's biography, as it implied her she may gradually be losing control over her vast psionic potential. I take this to mean Kerrigan may have used Raszagal's own potential against her to make her a thrall.
Possibly, but it's not explained. I don't know if Blizzard will explain this, but regardless of what happens in LotV, Kerrigan knows she'll still have to face retribution from them when it's all over. That, of course, depends on just WHAT will happen for Zeratul's revealing of the prophecy's full picture.
Either way, I'm curious how the Zerg engineering will play into the merging of the new Xel'Naga.
Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
Well look at it this way: Duran never said a thing about the hybrids awakening faster.
Neither did I. The hybrids are only part of the process of waking Amon up and are a component created totally independent from any influence of what Kerrigan may represent. However, Duran specifically states that Kerrigan's induction into the Swarm is what (paraphrasing) "sped up his progress" in awakening Amon (as revealed in HotS). Given that you've previously ruled out that Duran was having trouble making Hybrids until he had Kerrigan as a source to refer to (as was originally implied), then his statement makes no sense since Kerrigan is just a currently useless, waiting potential "pool of energy" just like the many other "pools of energy" called Protoss (who are arguably a far more potent source in terms of psionic energy) until the limiting factor being the Hybrids to collect the energy once they reach critical mass. In short, your explanations are really implying that Kerrigan's presence did not speed up Duran's progress in reviving Amon in contrary to the position that Duran's progress was sped up due to Kerrigan's presence.
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
Don't be stupid, I'm not giving it a thought, I'm already helping at least 4 different authors with their fic on fanfiction.net for the post HotS storylines, many of them wanted to continue their relationship. And since 3 of them are of an M rating, I'm sure you know EXACTLY where this is going.
"Authors"? Seems like an excuse to write Raynor and Infested Kerrigan porn for their own twisted pleasure. You sure you're not using that as a euphemism for "deviants" and "perverts"? :D
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
I just want a GOOD ending for them
All I wanted was a half-decently written story. You can see how that turned out....
Also, given LotV is going to be about the Protoss, you'll have to wait for the book.
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
...once the Zerg have more free will and all that.
My eye twitches whenever I read something like this. :p
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
Either way, I'm curious how the Zerg engineering will play into the merging of the new Xel'Naga.
Most likely nothing at all. Given that "essence" are just glowing balls of energy, I'd assume "form" would be something like that, too. They then combine and then magic stuff happens. Yay, genetics! :rolleyes:
Cynicism aside, I wouldn't think that current Zerg genetic engineering would ever factor into the merging of new Xel'naga. I think the idea was that the Protoss and Zerg would evolve naturally before mutually merging to become Xel'Naga, right? This implies that their current forms are not capable of being Xel'Naga and that they each need to evolve into something else (like two entirely different species that are nothing like what they are now?) before this natural merging process to create "true" Xel'Naga can happen. In their current forms and processes, they can't even get close without wanting to kill each other. If the process were even attempted to occur sooner or in any other way than this, Hybrids would be the only logical result one would think.
Well then, I guess the only other way for a "Xel'Naga warp" to happen is by the way of glowing magic balls afterall. :p
Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
And I would have agreed right before I played the BW secret missions back in the day. But remember, Duran told Zeratul that the hybrid had been pre-ordained when the stars were still young.
The xel'naga rebirth was pre-ordained when the stars were young. The hybrid are a corruption and never meant to happen.
There were some theories floating around before SC2 came out that Duran was deluding himself into thinking he was serving the xel'naga.
Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
The xel'naga rebirth was pre-ordained when the stars were young. The hybrid are a corruption and never meant to happen.
There were some theories floating around before SC2 came out that Duran was deluding himself into thinking he was serving the xel'naga.
That didn't make sense to me. All right Gradius, then you explain what Duran meant.
Because he said "This creature was preordained when the stars were still young." He was referring to the hybrid in the vat cell at that time, was he not?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Neither did I. The hybrids are only part of the process of waking Amon up and are a component created totally independent from any influence of what Kerrigan may represent. However, Duran specifically states that Kerrigan's induction into the Swarm is what (paraphrasing) "sped up his progress" in awakening Amon (as revealed in HotS). Given that you've previously ruled out that Duran was having trouble making Hybrids until he had Kerrigan as a source to refer to (as was originally implied), then his statement makes no sense since Kerrigan is just a currently useless, waiting potential "pool of energy" just like the many other "pools of energy" called Protoss (who are arguably a far more potent source in terms of psionic energy) until the limiting factor being the Hybrids to collect the energy once they reach critical mass. In short, your explanations are really implying that Kerrigan's presence did not speed up Duran's progress in reviving Amon in contrary to the position that Duran's progress was sped up due to Kerrigan's presence.
You can put it that way if you like. I'm not entirely sure if Duran had trouble with the hybrids. I think maybe the hybrids weren't as strong before Kerrigan was introduced into the swarm. If that's true, it's reflected in the "In Utter Darkness" mission, because those hybrids were largely weak and ineffective, except on Brutal.
Maybe Kerrigan's presence helped Duran create even stronger hybrids, which was reflected in the Hybrid Dominators from the "Hand of Darkness" mission.
So to that end, maybe it was both: Kerrigan's presence sped up Duran's plans to revive Amon as well as to create stronger hybrids.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
"Authors"? Seems like an excuse to write Raynor and Infested Kerrigan porn for their own twisted pleasure. You sure you're not using that as a euphemism for "deviants" and "perverts"?
Well one of them kind of cheated because in that fic, Kerrigan had Abathur collect what remained of Narud's essence in the shapeshifting abilities. This was then used on herself so she could shapeshift back to her human form as a means of healing Raynor.
Regardless, it's not hardcore porn, the point of it all is merely the healing process as too many feel Raynor is still a broken man by the end of HotS.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
All I wanted was a half-decently written story. You can see how that turned out....
Also, given LotV is going to be about the Protoss, you'll have to wait for the book.
I know that. But even with minor Raynor and Kerrigan interactions in LotV, it's ok as long as there's closure. You can put all the sci-fi battles and what not into LotV, as long as their ending isn't "the two of them sent to roast in hell."
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
My eye twitches whenever I read something like this.
This is why it's hard to say if such peace can really exist. It's not like the primal Zerg are any less arrogant than their corrupted counterparts.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Most likely nothing at all. Given that "essence" are just glowing balls of energy, I'd assume "form" would be something like that, too. They then combine and then magic stuff happens. Yay, genetics!
This is the problem for it all. And this is why perhaps they won't merge into the new Xel'Naga at all, and thus they don't have to do with their creators intended. This was somewhat touched upon when Khas created the Khala, believing they didn't need the Xel'Naga at all.
Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
That didn't make sense to me. All right Gradius, then you explain what Duran meant.
Because he said "This creature was preordained when the stars were still young." He was referring to the hybrid in the vat cell at that time, was he not?
Right. But during the SC1 days some people thought the xel'naga would have been evil. Now that we know they're "good" and the cycle is in fact referring to xel'naga and not hybrids (if you read the DT saga), it just makes the quote more confusing. I guess it's technically true since the hybrids will "complete" the cycle by taking the place of the xel'naga, but it's misleading to say that their "role in the cosmic order was preordained when the stars were young". Again, that would be referring to true xel'naga, not hybrids.
Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Right. But during the SC1 days some people thought the xel'naga would have been evil. Now that we know they're "good" and the cycle is in fact referring to xel'naga and not hybrids (if you read the DT saga), it just makes the quote more confusing. I guess it's technically true since the hybrids will "complete" the cycle by taking the place of the xel'naga, but it's misleading to say that their "role in the cosmic order was preordained when the stars were young". Again, that would be referring to true xel'naga, not hybrids.
Yeah I read that part of what Zamara said of the Xel'Naga cycle and everything.
For me, when Duran said that their role in the cosmic order was preordained, I think it might have been like this:
Amon was looking for two species that could be used to create a hybrid. In other words, the Zerg and Protoss weren't the FIRST species he used to create hybrids.
And that means the hybrid CONCEPTUAL ROLE was preordained, but not the physical hybrid itself. Amon probably had failures with two species in genetically combining them to create a successful hybrid, and those failures continued until the Zerg and Protoss came into the picture.
Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
You can put it that way if you like. I'm not entirely sure if Duran had trouble with the hybrids. I think maybe the hybrids weren't as strong before Kerrigan was introduced into the swarm. If that's true, it's reflected in the "In Utter Darkness" mission, because those hybrids were largely weak and ineffective, except on Brutal.
Maybe Kerrigan's presence helped Duran create even stronger hybrids, which was reflected in the Hybrid Dominators from the "Hand of Darkness" mission.
So to that end, maybe it was both: Kerrigan's presence sped up Duran's plans to revive Amon as well as to create stronger hybrids.
Forcing Duran to make new, different or upgraded Hybrids to account for Kerrigan would not constitute as literally speeding up his progress. Duran has to do more work, which equals more time and therefore, NOT speeding up. Unless, you want to now say he was saying it metaphorically :rolleyes:. Maybe he was lying and or joking, too while he was at it. :rolleyes:
Besides, there's a lot of "maybe's" in there for my liking or for any regular person to even bother fanonning to justify that inconsistency. It requires too many mental flip-flops and evasions to make sense (if one can even call it that after all the stuff you have to fanon). The far more easier conclusion is to say it's all a crock and the writers didn't know what they're doing...maybe. :p
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
Regardless, it's not hardcore porn, the point of it all is merely the healing process as too many feel Raynor is still a broken man by the end of HotS.
Sure, sure, whatever they say, huh? ;)
What's wrong with Raynor still being "broken"? There's plenty of mileage there. He's written to be Sc's resident punching bag - he knows the score, willingly takes it all on and asks for nothing except more pain. Any normal person would have committed suicide long ago, but he goes on. What if Raynor wasn't a badass because he was deep-down a good-hearted man who wants a girl at the end of the day, but because he's some unaware death-seeker?
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
You can put all the sci-fi battles and what not into LotV, as long as their ending isn't "the two of them sent to roast in hell."
Eh, it doesn't matter. Even if it's a "bad" ending, it will be rewritten by the time the inevitable books come out or Sc3. Characters in Sc don't seem to really "die" anymore anyway given its current soap opera leanings.
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
This is why it's hard to say if such peace can really exist. It's not like the primal Zerg are any less arrogant than their corrupted counterparts.
It can if Blizz will it. Afterall, they're writing the story they want not what would naturally occur. Since characters and situations in Sc can perform 180 changes in direction at any time time with the flimsiest of plot device now, I'm sure there's always potential for the Zerg in becoming good. :(
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Originally Posted by
ragnarok
And this is why perhaps they won't merge into the new Xel'Naga at all, and thus they don't have to do with their creators intended. This was somewhat touched upon when Khas created the Khala, believing they didn't need the Xel'Naga at all.
I've remarked on this previously elsewhere. Moving forward, it's perhaps the best thing that can potentially happen for the Protoss to give them back their own identity again. The writers have leaned too much on the Xel'Naga in recent times to explain everything about the Protoss to their detriment.
Re: Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Forcing Duran to make new, different or upgraded Hybrids to account for Kerrigan would not constitute as literally speeding up his progress. Duran has to do more work, which equals more time and therefore, NOT speeding up. Unless, you want to now say he was saying it metaphorically :rolleyes:. Maybe he was lying and or joking, too while he was at it. :rolleyes:
Besides, there's a lot of "maybe's" in there for my liking or for any regular person to even bother fanonning to justify that inconsistency. It requires too many mental flip-flops and evasions to make sense (if one can even call it that after all the stuff you have to fanon). The far more easier conclusion is to say it's all a crock and the writers didn't know what they're doing...maybe. :p
Well, we DO know he likes to mess with people's heads all the time, but that's nothing new for a villain anyway. And I meant Kerrigan's presence opened the ability to create stronger hybrids, hence speeding up the progress. Either that or he took a sample of her psionic energy without her noticing and used that as a basis.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
What's wrong with Raynor still being "broken"? There's plenty of mileage there. He's written to be Sc's resident punching bag - he knows the score, willingly takes it all on and asks for nothing except more pain. Any normal person would have committed suicide long ago, but he goes on. What if Raynor wasn't a badass because he was deep-down a good-hearted man who wants a girl at the end of the day, but because he's some unaware death-seeker?
Because as he had said it on Char: "Some things are just worth fighting for." Now yes, you can say that was shaken in the "Believe in Me" cutscene, but I believe some part of him still trusted Kerrigan, despite what she did.
As for being a death seeker, he's already a death magnet. If all 3 races are needed to fight Amon, Raynor will be targeted right away because without him, the alliance would crumble.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
Eh, it doesn't matter. Even if it's a "bad" ending, it will be rewritten by the time the inevitable books come out or Sc3. Characters in Sc don't seem to really "die" anymore anyway given its current soap opera leanings.
We'll see. I still want LotV to explain how Tassadar survived.
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
It can if Blizz will it. Afterall, they're writing the story they want not what would naturally occur. Since characters and situations in Sc can perform 180 changes in direction at any time time with the flimsiest of plot device now, I'm sure there's always potential for the Zerg in becoming good.
If they become good, how would SC3 work? You still have to fight the Zerg species if SC3 is made, you know...
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Originally Posted by
Turalyon
I've remarked on this previously elsewhere. Moving forward, it's perhaps the best thing that can potentially happen for the Protoss to give them back their own identity again. The writers have leaned too much on the Xel'Naga in recent times to explain everything about the Protoss to their detriment.
Yes well for all the leaning of the Xel'Naga, so little is still revealed.
