already completed the campaign makes me think that the real heart of the swarm is Abathur (slightly Zagara) WHILE Kerrigan becomes more like the brain
you think?
Printable View
already completed the campaign makes me think that the real heart of the swarm is Abathur (slightly Zagara) WHILE Kerrigan becomes more like the brain
you think?
well, clarify the purpose of this topic, the story has been good (some disappointments: lacking use old units, optional more mutations and more information about units) zerg.
I'm neutral with the arc of Zerus, here is where I felt, was due solved an important point,> which is the heart of the swarm? <. although already discussed the meaning of being a Zerg. but No talk of that ubiquitous "voice of the will of the swarm swarm", which even Kerrigan was submitted. an echo like the overmind, overriding directive swarm.
Kerrigan despite its superficial change does not seem to dive into this aspect completely zerg, Kerrigan even in the end apart from his concern for the swarm, there is a human motivation. abathur at all times zerg expresses the ideal: perfection, evolution and unity (the voice of the swarm), even zagara wanting to kill all the terrans to end his loneliness
the question is: Kerrigan is the heart of the swarm or prison for destructive instinct. this has not been clear enough Kerrigan is cruel to take as their own behavior zerg but want to give a chance for humanity.
Can Abathur be classed as "true" Zerg when the Zerus mission establishes that the "true" Zerg are the so-called "Primal Zerg"? Abathur was a creation of the Overmind and since it is heavily implied that the Overmind was a creation of Amon (and not the Xel'Naga in general), one is led to believe that all the Zerg that we have ever known up to this point are just a corruption of the "true" Zerg.
HotS not only completes WoL's work of throwing the Overmind under the bus it also potentially undermines the whole Zerg race as we currently know them. Currently, the only "true" Zerg happens to be a part of Kerrigan... and she's part Terran. Makes a lot sense, doesn't it?
The primal zerg are the primal zerg. There's nothing "true" about them, only by their own definition. By the same logic, only Earth humans are "true" humans, or only Khalai are "true" protoss, or only "insert elf kindred here from media of choice" is the "true" elf kindred as opposed to "offshoot elf kindred from same media," because the idea of racial offshoots in sci-fi and fantasy goes back a long way. If anyone's being thrown under a bus it's arguably the primal zerg themselves since they're effectively intergrated into the Swarm.
As far as I'm concerned it's a simple matter (well, maybe not simple) of divergent evolution. Two distinct branches of zerg exist. If the Primals are "True" zerg, they're not necessarily stronger for it.
Well, not quite. The Swarm zerg are more a divergent branch. Basically goes insectoid zerg-primal zerg-Swarm zerg, though the primal zerg do their own diverging while the Swarm zerg are doing their own thing out in the galaxy.
And that is why on the wiki I'm still wondering whether the primal zerg should be categorized as a separate species or not.:D
If we're going to be technical about it;
I'd probably have two articles; one on the Zerg Swarm and another on the Primals.Quote:
Divergent evolution is the accumulation of differences between groups which can lead to the formation of new species, usually a result of diffusion of the same species to different and isolated environments which blocks the gene flow among the distinct populations allowing differentiated fixation of characteristics through genetic drift and natural selection.
Oh there's two articles. It's just a question of categorization. So far the primal zerg are in the "Category: Zerg" category, as in, something integral to the zerg themselves. I'm inclined to make sub-sections of their packs and strains rather than just lump them in with the "zerg broods" and "zerg breeds" categories as well, considering how they operate on a different level. Course someone might beat me to it.
HotS-so many edits, so little time.
Yeah, I'd like to think so too... if only the game itself actually points itself in that same direction. With the game conveniently informing us that the Primals are so powerful, nobly savage and actually having the ability to make Kerrigan an even more powerful/ better Queen of Blades than she was before coupled with the condemnation that anything the Overmind touched was just a corrupted abomination and therefore weak (especially when it's revealed to be solely a creation by Amon and not the Xel'naga in general), it's hard not to think that the Primals are what the "true" (if one could ever classify such a thing) form of Zerg that the Xel'Naga envisaged in the first place to continue their cycle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
They're not that well established anyway in HotS or anywhere else for that matter, being nothing more than a serviceable plot device, so it won't make as much mess throwing the Primals under the bus. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
The Psi Destroyer also helped the notion that the Swarm were weaker Zerg. I really hated the Psi Destroyer.
Name one thing "noble" about them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Except that condemnation is coming from the primal zerg themselves. It isn't objective. It's like a white person saying "white people are better than black people" and taking that person at their word. All the contentions of the primal zerg are based on specieism rather than objectivism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
As opposed to the psi emitter. Or psi disruptor. Or every other psionic device that has used the zerg's hivemind against them. And when the primal zerg are defeated by the Swarm zerg, when the primal zerg are a small force within the Swarm, it kind of defeats the notion that they're weaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar
What I meant was not "noble" in the usual definition but the concept of the "noble savage" (and yes, I know it's an outdated and incorrect concept when it is applied to human cultures). The Primal Zerg represent this concept of the beauty and exceptional state of it's primitiveness that is uncontaminated/uncorrupted by outside forces.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
I hear your argument, but tell me, do you truly believe that at that particular moment when Zurvan, an ancient and knowledgeable being, is giving us these revelations that the casual audience member observing it is going "well, he's just not being objective and I will disregard everything he says because it's obvious he's speciest"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
You're argument is also untenable because using this logic, how could we believe anything that anyone else in the Starcraft is nothing but their "point of view"? Then again, given that HotS has once again shown us characters with dubious motivations in terms of their characterisation, this may actually explain a lot.
Yes, I got that, but they don't even qualify for that. "Noble savage" usually invokes feelings of communal society, respect for the natural world, self-reliance, etc. The primal zerg operate on Darwinism - survival of the fittest. They're not a peace with each other, they're not self-reliant because Dehaka repeatedly reinforces that the pack leaders fell into the trap of stagnant power, and while Zerus isn't spoiled the way Swarm zerg might do it, they never express any reverence for the natural world. Zurvan may have a network of sorts, but he's hardly Zerus's Eywa.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Well, I'll put it this way:Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Fact: Swarm zerg stem from Amon
Opinion: Primal zerg are therefore better
That's what the above post referred to. And there's never any steering of Swarm zerg to a primal zerg philosophy. Kerrigan enters the spawning pool as a means to an end, not because "primal zerg FTW!" To cite a parallel, Tassadar uses powers of the Void, but he never becomes a full Nerazim.
Common sense, personal interpretation, etc. It's the point of view of the Conclave that the Nerazim are heretics, savages, etc. It's common sense that they're not. It's within the realm of believability that Amon was indeed resurrected, because Narud has no real reason to lie. But saying "you've already lost" is not an objective statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Or just quote Obi-Wan. He's had a monopoly on points of view since Return of the Jedi.:p
As opposed to the Psi Emitter, yes. But the same thing applies to the Psi Disrupter. What an utterly ridiculous piece of technology that was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
The Psi Emitter, meanwhile, did nothing to the Zerg's hivemind. It broadcasts the neural imprint of a Ghost. It attracted Zerg because the Overmind wanted a human psychic and the Emitter was a giant sign indicating "Human Psychic Here!" It did not compel the Zerg in any way.
Apart from Brood War.Quote:
Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar
Precisely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
Wasn't going for a strict definition originally largely because the exact term is specifically for human cultures and is outmoded. I was more along the lines of it being evocative of that concept in the sense that their savagery is honest in its purpose, that is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
It is also fact that the Swarm Zerg are crippled in a way that the Primal Zerg are not due to their lack of psionic ability/dependence. Dehaka goes on to point that out clearly afterwards in a mission.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
Indeed, aside from Kerrigan leading the Swarm Zerg and therefore giving them a tactical edge there is nothing that really distinguishes the Swarm Zerg from the Primal Zerg (they both collect "essence" to improve themselves despite varying methodology or philosophy) except for this "weakness" on the part of the Zerg Swarm. The Primal's are also seemingly able to copy and integrate the best Swarm Zerg units within mere moments of Kerrigan's arrival and without much direct contact on Zerus whereas the Zerg have to painstakingly assimilate new strains before becoming viable. The Primal Zerg essence also makes Kerrigan's Primal QoB more powerful than the Swarm QoB because she is now unshackled from Amon whilst having power overwhelming. These facts indicate that the Primal Zerg are really better than Swarm Zerg.
I wouldn't be surprised if it is then reveled that this corruption is the reason why the Swarm Zerg cannot infest Protoss or more likely eventually merge with the Protoss to create new Xel'Naga. Although it becomes speculative at this point, if we look at this as the final goal, the Primal Zerg would be even better than the Swarm Zerg in more ways than one.
Fair enough, I can see where you're coming from. The primal zerg don't share the weaknesses of Swarm zerg, Kerrigan is more powerful in primal form, etc. But I don't think it necessarily invalidates the Swarm zerg. Again with the Tassadar and Nerazim - Nerazim are "better" than Khalai in terms of the powers they wield, only Void energies can kill the Overmind, Tassadar uses said energies to do the deed, etc. I don't think it really diminishes either Khalai or Tassadar though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Of course, how Dehaka's pack will interact with the Swarm zerg post-LotV remains to be seen. Maybe my old SC3 thread needs another plot point.:D
Except we know it's the Khala/Void that protects protoss from infestation. That, and maybe "purity of form," as in, a form that can't be corrupted, whereas zerg have "purity of essence" - stay true to their nature regardless of whether they're primal or not whereas protoss aren't above intercine strife.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Or not. But it's been explained why protoss can't be infested.
Ah, don't get too attached to that explanation now. Sc2 has shown us multiple times that previous lore can be "re-imagined" at will, albeit that it's the Zerg that are copping the brunt of most of it so far - I can't see why the Protoss can't suffer a similar fate...Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
Given that the Swarm Zerg are fundamentally corrupted versions and are therefore more limited versions of Primal Zerg, can it be said that the Swarm Zerg are really pure of essence now? The difference between the Primal Zerg and the Swarm Zerg may not necessarily be synonymous with the difference between Khalai and Nerazim Protoss. For one thing each Nerazim Protoss use to be, or rather could've been, a Khalai Protoss at one point whereas there is no such possibility (at this point in time...) for an individual Swarm Zerg becoming a Primal Zerg because of their inherent corruption.
Also, infestation is a process that only the Swarm Zerg do to integrate/assimilate essence, whilst the Primal Zerg eat/absorb it directly somehow. The 'naturalness' at which the Primal Zerg seem to do this (along with their general vibe of them being 'au naturel' and the goodness that it could potentially bring) could be a way for them to integrate with the Protoss. Given that the Swarm Zerg are inferior in how they integrate essence coupled with the hivemind "corruption", this could easily be a possible out for this piece of lore.
It's an interesting possibility that the Primal Zerg will be capable of assimilating a Protoss on an individual level, yielding the proper continuation of the Xel'Naga.Quote:
Also, infestation is a process that only the Swarm Zerg do to integrate/assimilate essence, whilst the Primal Zerg eat/absorb it directly somehow. The 'naturalness' at which the Primal Zerg seem to do this (along with their general vibe of them being 'au naturel' and the goodness that it could potentially bring) could be a way for them to integrate with the Protoss. Given that the Swarm Zerg are inferior in how they integrate essence coupled with the hivemind "corruption", this could easily be a possible out for this piece of lore.
But I have to disagree that the Primals' method of assimilation is necessarily "superior" to that of the Swarm. Primal Zerg can assimilate traits on an individual level, and therefor makes the individual stronger. But how does that help Primal Zerg as a whole? Once the Swarm assimilates a trait, it is passed on through out the Swarm almost instantaneously. I'd liken one to micro-assimilation and the other to macro. :)
Neither can be called superior, simply different. One may be more apropos for one situation than another.
Either way, I think my argument that Kerrigan will personally usher in the next generation of Xel'Naga is partially validated. Not only does she control the Swarm's macro-assimilation, but may also be able to assimilate traits on an personal level. So whom might she "assimilate" or fuse with in order to create the next 'Naga?
But the primal zerg aren't a re-imagining. They're using a concept that already existed in the setting (zerg pre-Overmind) and running with it. A re-imagining on a species level would be saying that all zerg are suddenly primal zerg, always were, always will be. They've not exactly been "necroned" or "Space Jockeyed."Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
A Khalai can become a Nerazim, but a Nerazim can't become a Khalai. Swarm zerg can have their essence devoured by primal zerg, whilst primal zerg essence can be assimilated into the Swarm (e.g. swarm hosts). The zerg are far more diffuse than the protoss in this regard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
You know, come to think of it, I wonder if the idea of transforming the Swarm zerg into primal zerg was part of the original intention. Kerrigan's line in the cut ending of "the zerg a free now, slaves to no-one, not even me" kind of fits this idea. If so...well, while there are many cut/altered storyline issues of HotS I'm iffy with, that's one change I'm glad was made.
Tell the xel'naga they can shove it.:pQuote:
Originally Posted by Visions of Khas
Before HotS was released, I read stories that Kerrigan was attempting to boost sentience in the Zerg Swarm and create creatures that could direct their own evolution, called Metamorphs. It's obvious this was scrapped in a sense in favor of giving the Swarm their own Dark Templar "offshoots".Quote:
You know, come to think of it, I wonder if the idea of transforming the Swarm zerg into primal zerg was part of the original intention.
Depends on what exactly about them that was re-imagined - largely, that they exist at all is a surprise. The original lore stated that the Overmind assimilated or destroyed all forms of life on Zerus before moving on. It's just been "re-imagined" now that the Overmind didn't actually do a good job of either which is why there are Primal Zerg. Don't get me wrong though, I kinda like the idea of having alternative Zerg that are set apart from conventional Swarm Zerg.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
I'm glad that this wasn't the case either but either way the inclusion of the Primal Zerg came along with the inference that the Swarm Zerg are kinda gimped. This is off-putting for the Swarm (or should I say 'classic'?) Zerg lovers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
The fact that anyone thinks that "zerg without a hive-mind" had any precedence in the lore is disappointing to say the least. The entire idea is contrary to the zerg race. =/
For example, we're expected to believe that they absorbed our DNA when we landed. But there are hundreds of them in the very first mission. If these were swarm zerg, nobody would bat an eyelash. But primal zerg don't have a hive-mind, which means that each of them killed at least one of our soldiers. So what, are we expected to believe that a vast portion of our army got slaughtered behind the scenes?
Psi Emitter - Lures zerg to its location. Mengsk cleverly uses this to destroy a superior opponent. Kerrigan also uses this to combat the next plot device in Brood War:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
Psi Disruptor - Disrupts control of zerg. Its value is debated between characters, one of which dies for it. It makes Kerrigan's job harder, and thus we got a more interesting plot than "Kerrigan steamrolls UED."
Xel'Naga Temple - Kerrigan needed the Xel'Naga temple activated so that she could destroy her former Cerebrate allies in order to gain control of their broods. She was then forced to work with the Protoss (her former enemies), who needed it activated as well in order to save their planet. So we got some fun new missions out of this (Braxis & Char). Yay.
Psi Destroyer - Shoehorned into the story in order to make the primal zerg seem relevant. This thing kills zerg. Kerrigan is zerg. Kerrigan steamrolls this thing in the same mission it's introduced. Yawn. An analogous plot device from SC1 would be the ion cannon from Rebel Yell. For all intents & purposes, it doesn't actually do anything.
What the plot device actually does is completely & totally trivial when compared to the effect it has on the plot & characters. That's why even though the Psi Destroyer and Xel'Naga temple have the same exact function, they're completely different. Though to be fair, the Psi Destroyer is more of a mission gimmick than a plot device, and it still doesn't achieve as much fail as the slowest supernova explosion ever, or fastest-dissipating lava ever.
Welcome to the club. Terran lovers were put there back in Brood War. You can also find tagal and kalathi in room 2.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Pre-Overmind zerg and feral zerg.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
No, the idea is contrary to the operation of Swarm zerg. We've seen the zerg be without hive minds before, only primal zerg can actually operate in that scenario.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
Maybe it's open to interpretation, but the impression I got is that it's a combination of scouts being taken out, and compressed mission mechanics being used to give primal zerg post-essence. Not ideal, but then again, the UED was using terran tech as per game mechanics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
Exact words are "the Xel’Naga structured the collective sentience of the Zerg into a unified, amalgamated ‘Overmind’". This implies that the collective sentience already existed. Fact is, everything that the pre-Overmind zerg did, they still did as a team. There is not a shred of evidence or indication that they killed each other for "essence" or any of that crap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
Not saying it's impossible, just saying that it's pretty much another silly retcon.
What about feral zerg indicates that they have no hive mind? I'm aware of the myriad retcons that might suggest otherwise, but feral zerg can still answer to Overlords or Queens. Zasz's brood operated as one. This suggests a hive mind. Duran incapacitated a brood by destroying its hive. This suggests a hive mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
All throughout SC, zerg broods work as a team, which suggests a hive mind. Pre-overmind zerg and even feral zerg do not kill each other. There are few, if any, instances of this. Primal zerg do nothing but kill each other.
That's fair, but the point that I was making is that there is this sense that the writers still treat them as swarm zerg, since they seem to have shared their DNA so easily. I just think it's a crappy and ill-conceived idea, in which you are bound to run into problems like this. I could say the same about the UED, but if SC was made in 2012, Blizzard would have added custom units for the UED like they did for the primals, and there would be no problem. Unfortunately, the primal zerg concept is far too broken to get such an easy fix.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
The implication I took from that was that it was a reference to the sum sentience of all zerg, pooling it. E.g. the "collect sentience" of humanity - all individuals, but an intelligence of the same species.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
Looking at the manual, I can see that interpretation being reached, but if the zerg were really as unified as you say, it would negate the need for an Overmind in the first place. And primal zerg work in packs as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
How they've been portrayed in HotS, the DTS, and Flashpoint. The lit. definition of feral zerg is "zerg not under the control of any higher entity. The zerg will simply attack everything around them, acting on the lowest level." There's a degree of leeway with that considering that in cited examples the zerg can still operate on a pack-like mentality, but would otherwise be incapable of coordination.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
Did it? I know the mission has it operating like a regular brood, but when Daggoth mentions the Garm Brood "rampaging" towards the main hive, the game mechanics don't match up. So while queens and overlords are there from a gameplay sense, I don't see them having any impact in a lore sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
Or maybe they do, since the mission requires you to hunt down every last overlord in every last corner of the screen even after destroying every last Garm Brood structure...gah!:mad:
Were they feral zerg though? Going by the mission:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
-Not Kerrigan's zerg - Duran would be serving Kerrigan at that point, so there's no reason for her to hinder his progress.
-Daggoth's zerg? Maybe taking out the hives allows Kerrigan to move in to Tarsonis later?
-Feral zerg? Not by the strictest sense, as they're too organized for that.
-Renegade zerg? As in, zerg that are using a hive mind, but are not under the command of either Kerrigan or the Overmind (e.g. the New Swarm). Maybe, but where are the cerebrates?
Point is, the zerg aren't that hemogenous as some would think. Their level of unity went into decline post-SC1 from a lore sense, and is arguably still in decline (primal zerg, maybe the Aiur broodmother is still doing her thing, etc.) But on the subject, I don't think the Tarsonis zerg can be classified as feral zerg, because from both a lore and gameplay sense, they're acting far too unified for that to happen.
Except as I've said, primal zerg are still capable of a level of cooperation, what with acting in packs. Feral zerg have operated in packs as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
We can't say this with any certainty. Until the Overmind is created, there is no mention of either unity or conflict among Zerg, so nothing can be inferred about their organization or behavior. The Overmind was the amalgamated whole of sum total Zerg awareness, but again we cannot say whether the Zerg were individualistic or a collective hivemind. We have absolutely no proof of that, one way or another, until HotS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
Race histories for quick reference.
Not necessarily. It's been a while since I've played the campaign, but I seem to remember some Primal Zerg Structures in the mission where we re-awaken Zurvan. Moreover, there are no real contradictions in the Primals making use of various Swarm strains. Say each Primal Zerg we encounter has consumed Swarm Zerg biomass, no matter how much or how little. From here, they conceivably have the ability to dissect the DNA and select those portions they wish to express. Therefor, a Primal may go, "Hey, look at these awesome traits I picked up from this heaping pile of Swarm Zerg junk DNA!" and express Guardian traits. Other Primals can then go, "Oh wow, that's cool, let me try!"; eat a Zergling; dissect the DNA; and emulate the strain themselves.Quote:
but the point that I was making is that there is this sense that the writers still treat them as swarm zerg, since they seem to have shared their DNA so easily.
Kind of. There were primal hives and primal spawning pools, though the latter weren't production structures. In regards to DNA assimilation...Quote:
Originally Posted by Visions of Khas
...well, my perception would be similar. A primal zerg on the lowest rung attacks and kills a zergling. The primal zerg takes on those traits. An aerial primal zerg does the same to a flyer unit and takes on the aspects of a mutalisk (and a guardian? Kerrigan didn't use guardians, so I'm guessing primal guardians morph from primal mutalisk and retain an air-to-air attack in this form). A primal pack leader is already at the apex (e.g. Brakk), so has no need to feast on zerg essence, except maybe Kerrigan.
This does raise the issue of how many Swarm zerg would have to be killed for this, but I'd contend that a) more than one primal zerg can feed on a single zerg corpse and b) the production of primal zerg units represents primals feeding on zerg over the course of the mission. Kind of fankwanky I know, but in a universe where battlecruisers can be built in minutes in terms of game-time, maybe it's something that just comes with the territory.
So yeah. Swarm operates on the macro level, primal zerg on the micro. Now all we need are some feral zerg to get some love. Where's my tale of feral zerg coming together and overcoming their lack of guidance, Blizz? WHERE IS IT?!;)
(Apart from Just an Overlord I guess.)
Well, I considered that. A Primal or two eat a Zergling, then express Zergling traits. But we never saw any Swarm Guardians, so how do Primals have access to it? So I figured, the genes for all Zerg strains may be found in every Zerg. After a larva evolves, it loses access to those portions of DNA; in a mature Zerg, say a Hydralisk, the genes for a Guardian still exist but are non-coding, junk DNA.Quote:
(and a guardian? Kerrigan didn't use guardians, so I'm guessing primal guardians morph from primal mutalisk and retain an air-to-air attack in this form).
There is some precedent for this, found in Stetmann's research notes on Zerg biomass in WoL. His samples contained bits of all strains, including the Overmind's.
Primal Zerg hierarchy/evolution could still play a role. A lowly Primal Zerg may sift through the Swarm genes and uncover only the most basic of evolutions, such as those of a Zergling. A Primal Zerg higher up on the food chain, with access to the same DNA, may be able to crack the code in order to access more highly evolved strains, such as a Hydralisk.
But this is all idle speculation.
Well, the Larva (and Defiler) are supposedly unique in carrying the genetic code for every Zerg strain, so I would guess not as such. But then again, that also provides the simple answer: the Primals got their hands on Larvae.Quote:
Originally Posted by Visions of Khas
Thing is, the K-sector Terrans never gave off the feeling that they would ever be powerful enough to go up against the Zerg or Protoss back in Sc1, so really the apparent "gimpness" of the K-Sector Terrans was an inherent trait of them. It's different with the Zerg because since they started off in a strong position. If there were any measures made in order to gimp them it usually and easily tends to make the whole affair look very plot device-y and contrived. Just the way it goes I suppose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
Is it any consolation that the bulk of terran victories against alien powers is due to outside, Amon/Xel'Naga-related intervention?Quote:
Thing is, the K-sector Terrans never gave off the feeling that they would ever be powerful enough to go up against the Zerg or Protoss back in Sc1, so really the apparent "gimpness" of the K-Sector Terrans was an inherent trait of them.
I'm well aware of that. If you want something with "certainty" then there's this line from the manual "The Zerg left the lifeless, burning world of Zerus and laid waste to every planet they found along their path towards the Protoss Homeworld."Quote:
Originally Posted by Visions of Khas
There you go, lifeless. This is irrefutable proof that the primal zerg could not exist. And yet, the point I was making, is that this does not bother me nearly as much as the primal zerg concept in itself, which basically boils down to a grievous betrayal of the spirit of the zerg race. If somebody came in here before HoTS was released and created some fanfiction based on the concept of "individualistic" zerg that don't use a hive-mind, who focus more on being "powerful warriors" than efficient killers, I think it would have been laughed off the forums, and we all know it. But that's just my opinion. It's little more than the equivalent of sentient zerg like "zerggrinch" or"Meserole the Marauder": http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Meserole_the_Marauder
Except I'm pretty sure those were supposed to be jokes and not taken seriously.
Except the zerg haven't really had it rough compared to the terrans, or even the protoss. Look at the win-loss ratio for campaigns:Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Terrans: 4 phyric/subverted victories (StarCraft, Loomings, Enslavers, Wings of Liberty), 3 net losses Brood War, Insurrection, and Retribution), 1 net victory (HunCraft, which is non-canon anyway).
Zerg: 3 net losses (StarCraft, HunCraft, Enslavers), 1 tactical victory (Loomings), 4 net victories (Retribution, Insurrection, Brood War, Heart of the Swarm). And while HotS may become subverted or a net loss depending on LotV, the zerg aren't exactly in a weak position, and are certainly still the most powerful race of the "big three" right now.
So yeah. Quit yer whinin':p
Oh, you mean the same way Nerazim "betray" the Khalai spirit, or the UED "betray" the terran spirit?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
There's a difference being re-introduction and revision. Re-introduction is taking a previous existing concept and running with it - the Nerazim got fleshed out in Brood War (a pre-existing concept), the UED got re-introduced in the same game (despite the UPL said to only rule for a few decades in the original manual), the primal zerg got re-introduced for Heart of the Swarm. It requires a retcon of Zerus, but it isn't a revision* of the zerg themselves, revision being taking such a trait, and arbitrarily making the race entirely like it. Which hasn't happened. Not all protoss are Nerazim, the UED hasn't imparted itself on the terrans, and the primal zerg still exist within a larger Swarm.
There's technically also the transition model, where x becomes y over the course of z,** as opposed to x was always y even pre-z. The zerg might have been an example if they became the equivalent of primal zerg over HotS as the original ending might suggest. Sometimes it's done well IMO, sometimes it isn't, but as this didn't happen to the zerg, it's a moot point.
*Examples would include mala'kak, necrons, goa'uld, etc.
**Examples include the tau, Tau'ri, arguably geth, etc.
I'm guessing you're not a fan of the Operation: Claws novelization I did then.:oQuote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
That would just be another mark against the Terrans by all accounts because that just means they're too weaksauce on their own such that they need divine intervention in the form of hitherto unknown but recently unearthed godly powers (to the groans of all who recognise such things) to be competitive. The UED or Earth Terrans in general would have been a more acceptable 'out' for this problem of in-lore Terran "weakness" given that there is a history there and can be written in to not look contrived, but as BW shows us they weren't used in that way unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Visions of Khas
Who said things had to be fair? It's not my fault the Zerg were initially and continually written as a powerhouse and the Terran as mewling kittens to the slaughter! The only way to change such an entrenched status quo is to break it with contrivance (doesn't always have be seen negatively even though it usually is) because it wouldn't naturally break itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
Primal Zerg re-introduced? I thought they were newly introduced in HotS since there is no way you can interpret the Zerg history in a way that would make one would think that the Primal Zerg were first introduced then. You'd have to start considering the entire Zerg history to be unreliable to do that. Then again, they've established the Overmind as an unreliable narrator in WoL out of the blue, so why not make the entire Zerg history a whole case of unreliable narration in HotS, I guess? How's that for serial escalation? I wonder what'd be next... :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Hawki