Re: Gradius's HoTS Story Review
The love story fails because there is nothing noble/heroic/relatable about incessantly seeking to redeem a mass murdering psycho who killed everyone. If my girlfriend killed all my friends in a drunken stupor, and then broke up with me, I wouldn't forgive her just because 4 years went by. HoTS adds insult to injury when you consider that Kerrigan still acts like a villain half the time and reverts to monster form. Raynor gets pissed off about this for five minutes, and then forgives her again the next mission because of whatever mental illness he seems to have. There are simply much better & more coherent love stories out there, even in video games.
And why did we get all this? Because the writers decided to blow out of proportion one line of dialog in the original game where Raynor thought she was hot. To shoehorn in this love story stuff in a setting originally based on galactic domination and political infighting is unbelievable.
Re: Gradius's HoTS Story Review
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Originally Posted by
Hawki
Except there's no rule to break. We've seen her retain human elements after the first infestation, and she's not the only infested terran to do so. And it's arguable whether her power buff on Zerus even counts as infestation per se, when all it does is change her biologically and psionically.
Except the love plot was never resolved in the first place. There were four ways it could have ended - Raynor killing Kerrigan, Kerrigan killing Raynor, Raynor moving beyond Kerrigan, or Raynor saving Kerrigan. The end of BW leaves the choice ambiguous. You could argue that it went with option 3 at the end, but there's not enough gravitas to really call it distinct.
How does Kerrigan retain her human elements? When she was infested in Brood War she acted like an intelligent zerg being e.g. Overmind, Cerebrate. I honestly don't see how she was human other than the memories of her past that she retained.
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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar
Ah, love. The most logical of emotions.
What you're saying here is that Raynor and Kerrigan shouldn't love each other if they can't breed. Which, you know, homosexuality and stuff. But that's not really accurate. More precisely, you're saying that it's okay that they fell in love, but they should have immediately lost that feeling the moment the female changed to become unable to reproduce with Raynor. More accurately, you're advocating that "scientifically" it is impossible to love after menopause. I'm assuming you have evidence for this.
No I'm saying that Kerrigan should not continue to love Raynor after she's infested because she's a zerg, an asexual creature.
It's difficult to draw a comparision because I don't there are any animals that are 100% asexual but what I mean is that now she's a zerg she should have the instincts of a zerg. Zerg do not reproduce. There's no instinct of attraction in them. This is beyond their psychology. This is their instincts, similaraly to how its human's instinct to fear the unknown. Scientifically you cannot escape your instinct. Thus when Kerrigan reinfested herself her love for Raynor should have vanished.
The examples you cited are not accurate. Humans are born with attraction as its part of their instinct. Zerg are not. In a real world context Kerrigan's love for Raynor is the same as a 100% asexual animal's love for a human. How does that make sense?
Re: Gradius's HoTS Story Review
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Originally Posted by Gradius
The love story fails because there is nothing noble/heroic/relatable about incessantly seeking to redeem a mass murdering psycho who killed everyone. If my girlfriend killed all my friends in a drunken stupor, and then broke up with me, I wouldn't forgive her just because 4 years went by.
I'm going to give your girlfriend the benefit of the doubt that in the event of such a mass massacre there was no external force dictating her actions. If we frame infestation in the context of, say, drug addiction, if Kerrigan chooses to take the drugs that trigger an aggressive response, then personal responsibility lies with her. If those drugs are forced on her and the body and mind reacts, then personal responsibility is mitigated. Kerrigan has pretty much taken over all personal responsibility by the end of Brood War. Which is why it takes Raynor until the end of WoL to make a choice on sparing her or not, and why he doesn't bring the ship down to Korhal until she takes personal responsibility for minimizing damage to Korhal's civilian populace.
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Originally Posted by Gradius
Raynor gets pissed off about this for five minutes, and then forgives her again the next mission because of whatever mental illness he seems to have.
See above.
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Originally Posted by Gradius
And why did we get all this? Because the writers decided to blow out of proportion one line of dialog in the original game where Raynor thought she was hot.
No, practically every line of dialogue between them in SC1 contributes to the moment of truth in mission 9, it's continued in campaign 2, brought up again in campaign 3, comes full circle again on Korhal.
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Originally Posted by Gradius
To shoehorn in this love story stuff in a setting originally based on galactic domination and political infighting is unbelievable.
Ah yes, the old "y doesn't belong in x because..." argument. I use ellipsis because it isn't an argument at all, never has been, and never will be. The notion that setting has to dictate story is rediculous, especially since that love story was already in the original game.
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Originally Posted by TSCR
How does Kerrigan retain her human elements? When she was infested in Brood War she acted like an intelligent zerg being e.g. Overmind, Cerebrate. I honestly don't see how she was human other than the memories of her past that she retained.
No, she acts like an intelligent human being. The Overmind and cerebrates are tactical, but they wouldn't use the tactics she does. The Overmind and cerebrates never contact their foes, they never manipulate their foes, they never taunt their foes. Kerrigan in BW retains human elements because she does all that. Kerrigan in WoL is the closest we get to her being pure psychological zerg in that she's become a force of nature. She no longer needs to manipulate or contact, she has the power to go in and take what she wants. It's no coincidence that Raynor is the only person she ever contacts, as per those last vestiges of humanity.
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Originally Posted by TSCR
It's difficult to draw a comparision because I don't there are any animals that are 100% asexual but what I mean is that now she's a zerg she should have the instincts of a zerg. Zerg do not reproduce. There's no instinct of attraction in them. This is beyond their psychology. This is their instincts, similaraly to how its human's instinct to fear the unknown. Scientifically you cannot escape your instinct. Thus when Kerrigan reinfested herself her love for Raynor should have vanished.
There's no scientific basis for infestation. Or, to put it on a more common level, no species has ever become another over the course of a few days/minutes. There's nothing to suggest those instincts wouldn't be retained.
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Originally Posted by TSCR
The examples you cited are not accurate.
Ah yes, because Animorphs and Ben 10 are hard evidence of how this 'really' works.:rolleyes:
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Originally Posted by TSCR
Humans are born with attraction as its part of their instinct. Zerg are not.
Shock of all shocks, Kerrigan was born a human.
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Originally Posted by TSCR
In a real world context Kerrigan's love for Raynor is the same as a 100% asexual animal's love for a human.
Except there's no real world context at all. There is no real world example. And there isn't a single sapient asexual organism that we know of either. And if Kerrigan is deemed to be asexual post-infestation, then she's joined the club of asexual sapients in science fiction that can still feel romantic attraction.
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Originally Posted by TSCR
How does that make sense?
It lost all sense when the argument was made that love was obliged to be treated as cold, scientific fact in a work of fiction that has a premise that there's no real-world example of.
I suppose if Kerrigan was gay and Raynor female as well, we'd be having the same argument. Asexuality, homosexuality, obviously any form of love that does not lead to propogation is invalid in this argument.:rolleyes:
Re: Gradius's HoTS Story Review
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Originally Posted by
Hawki
I'm going to give your girlfriend the benefit of the doubt that in the event of such a mass massacre there was no external force dictating her actions. If we frame infestation in the context of, say, drug addiction, if Kerrigan chooses to take the drugs that trigger an aggressive response, then personal responsibility lies with her. If those drugs are forced on her and the body and mind reacts, then personal responsibility is mitigated. Kerrigan has pretty much taken over all personal responsibility by the end of Brood War. Which is why it takes Raynor until the end of WoL to make a choice on sparing her or not, and why he doesn't bring the ship down to Korhal until she takes personal responsibility for minimizing damage to Korhal's civilian populace.
That excuse doesn't work with HoTS given that Kerrigan is supposed to have her morality back. Either way, I still wouldn't have been pouring over her picture 4 years later after all the atrocities she'd personally visited upon me & my friends, but hey that's just me. :P
I don't really relate to Raynor & Kerrigan's love for each other at all. Maybe I am alone in this, but I suspect not.
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Ah yes, the old "y doesn't belong in x because..." argument. I use ellipsis because it isn't an argument at all, never has been, and never will be. The notion that setting has to dictate story is rediculous, especially since that love story was already in the original game.
It's not ridiculous. Setting does in fact influence story:
http://poewar.com/how-setting-influences-story/
That's not to say that a love story is not-doable, just that Blizzard's version sticks out like a sore thumb in this particular setting. i.e. the smooching in the middle of the battlefield.
Re: Gradius's HoTS Story Review
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Originally Posted by Gradius
That excuse doesn't work with HoTS given that Kerrigan is supposed to have her morality back.
Not her full morality though. Then again, it's hard to tell in HotS - I've often said how Kerrigan feels like two different characters in the game. Cinematic-wise, I 'get' her. It's Raynor's death that triggers her rampage, it's his rescue that brings her back, by the end of the game, she's shed the emotional baggage of both Mengsk and Raynor. While her actions have caused harm to innocents, she's still operated on a level that her old self never would (e.g. talking to Valerian). SMS though is another story...ugh. In essence, the problems with Kerrigan in HotS stem more from writing than concept IMO.
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Originally Posted by Gradius
I don't really relate to Raynor & Kerrigan's love for each other at all. Maybe I am alone in this, but I suspect not.
No, you're not. But I can take solace that I'm not alone either - I remember reading a comment about the kiss you mention below as "the kiss we've been waiting 15 years for." Not that I'd say I've been waiting 15 years for that kiss per se, but couldn't help but smirk.
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Originally Posted by Gradius
I said dictates story, not influences story. And the examples provided are all real-world settings.
I'll put the difference like this. Looking at the examples, take setting 1 and setting 2. Setting 1 is somewhat idealic, setting 2 has more leeway to be seedy in a sense. If setting dictates story, then the story of setting 1 would have to be flowers and hulas and setting 2 a story of a marriage gone wrong by drugs, guns, alcohol, etc. If setting influences story, then there's still leeway for setting 1 to have a story about Hawai's underbelly, and setting 2 for the couple to be happy, joyous, and for whatever reason, avoid or easily overcome all the problems their setting throws at them. The setting is presented, but can still be overcome/defied by the protagonists, or made irrelevant by antagonists.
Which kind of leads into the concept of thematic dissonence, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, and I suppose is subjective. The ending of WoL and The Empire Strikes back is thematic dissonence done right, ending of ME3 is thematic dissonence done wrong, and the thematic dissonence of HotS in comparison to WoL is something I'm on the fence about as to whether it's a net positive or negative. Course this is subjective, but basically, setting may influence story, but it doesn't dictate it. Ideally.
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Originally Posted by Gradius
That's not to say that a love story is not-doable, just that Blizzard's version sticks out like a sore thumb in this particular setting. i.e. the smooching in the middle of the battlefield.
Except they're not in the middle of a battlefield, they're on the edge of one. It's quick, pertinent, to the point, and then they both get back to business. We're shown the attraction at the start, so it lends more weight to the dialogue within the mission because we're given an immediate context for it.
Re: Gradius's HoTS Story Review
Honestly, I think in New Gettysburg there is some romantic subtext. But that's all it is, subtext. Raynor cares about Kerrigan, he COULD have grown to love her. But to go to all this trouble to bring her back and forgive her after she's been transformed into a monstrous Zerg creature TWICE is unrealistic. She's gone. She can't come back. I guess that was the point of Heart of the Swarm, but it's too sappy...
Re: Gradius's HoTS Story Review
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Originally Posted by
Aldrius
Kerrigan's plotting is the main thrust of the story's climax. Things happen because of Kerrigan. Fenix, Mengsk, Raynor and Zeratul are major characters in the story's final act, so no, I wouldn't say the UED and Kerrigan are all that matter. And I don't see how the Fall is irrelevant... it may not tie in directly with the Kerrigan stuff going on in the last act (aside from Raszagal) but it's informing us of important aspects of what's going on with the Protoss, and the world at large. And Kerrigan plays an important role there too.
Kerrigan's plotting drives nothing. The only thing that happens because of Kerrigan is the whole taking down of the UED, which obviously I've never argued takes itself down. Everything else? It's a reaction to the UED. And I have no idea why you'd think the UED and Kerrigan are all that matter - unless you're claiming that Raynor and Kerrigan, and Kerrigan and Mengsk are the only ones who matter in Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm respectively?
The Stand is insignificant after its first or second mission. Kerrigan does nothing to impact the story of that campaign, at all.
Incidentally, Fenix is never a major character at any point in the history of StarCraft
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Originally Posted by
TSCR
No I'm saying that Kerrigan should not continue to love Raynor after she's infested because she's a zerg, an asexual creature.
Yet you may have noticed she still has breasts.
Re: Gradius's HoTS Story Review
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Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar
Kerrigan's plotting drives nothing. The only thing that happens because of Kerrigan is the whole taking down of the UED, which obviously I've never argued takes itself down. Everything else? It's a reaction to the UED. And I have no idea why you'd think the UED and Kerrigan are all that matter - unless you're claiming that Raynor and Kerrigan, and Kerrigan and Mengsk are the only ones who matter in Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm respectively?
The Stand is insignificant after its first or second mission. Kerrigan does nothing to impact the story of that campaign, at all.
I'm...kind of on the fence here. I haven't followed this argument too much, but it seems to be a debate as to what has the most influence in BW, the presence of the UED, or Kerrigan. It's the 'essence' of the conflict itself in a sense that's a question - is it a zerg civil war that the UED stumbles into, but otherwise progresses? Or is it a zerg civil war that's outright replaced by conflict with the UED? Looking at a few key moments:
The Fall
-Kerrigan controls Raszagal, long term goal presumably being using Nerazim to kill the Overmind
-Daggoth's zerg invade Shakuras
-Protoss go after crystals, something that they were going to do because of Daggoth's zerg. Kerrigan helps recover both, but doesn't detect both.
-Aldaris's revolt occurs because of matriarch/Kerrigan. Aldaris killed, Kerrigan leaves.
-Temple used, Daggoth's zerg scoured from Shakuras
Conclusion: Daggoth's zerg are more determinant for campaign 1. Kerrigan's main objective seems to be getting DTs to take out the Overmind, but is willing to garner good will. Kerrigan's plan is separate on its own, but otherwise, she's reacting to Daggoth's zerg.
So far, Daggoth's zerg are the determining faction. Barely any UED.
The Iron Fist
-UED takes control of Dominion, etc., would be irrelevant to zerg if not for the Char issue.
-Char becomes issue for both zerg factions. Becomes issue for Daggoth's faction because they're being controlled by terrans. Becomes issue for Kerrigan because there's zerg not under her control. Kind of like before. Difference is, she's got to deal with UED and zerg now. So she slinks off, cursing Duran for not destroying the psi disruptor, the git.:p
-Conclusion: UED is an unplanned factor in Kerrigan's plans, tries to use Duran to sabotage their efforts with psi disruptor, fails, now she's in a very precarious situation.
The Queen of Blades
-Kerrigan utilizes other factions to get herself back into a position of relative power. Kind of like how she started out before the UED came.
-Kerrigan follows plan to use DTs to take out Overmind by kidnaping Raszagal and using her to get DTs to do task.
-Overmind destroyed, Kerrigan gains full control, UED destroyed.
-Conclusion: This is very subjective, but the UED strikes me as a hiccup in the overall conflict, altering the nature of an already existing one. Suppose The Fall happens the same way as it does originally just minus the UED. In essence, the overall story is the same. Therefore, we cut to the point where Kerrigan kidnaps Raszagal, DTs kill Overmind (and due to lack of UED presence have an easier job doing it), Kerrigan betrays protoss, final mission never happens unless Artanis wants to go it alone (plus no reason to avenge Fenix), Mengsk has no immediate need for revenge, no UED fleet at all. The UED, in true terran fashion, comes in and messes everything up for Kerrigan leaving her to alter her plan, use allies, betray allies, and achieve the goal she was setting out to do before the fleet turned up.
So yeah. I'd say the Brood War is distinctly a zerg civil war. The UED was just a large interruption. Course if not for them the Dominion wouldn't have been weaknened, but that's something Kerrigan might have done with the full Swarm at her back anyway.
Re: Gradius's HoTS Story Review
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Originally Posted by
Hawki
Um, I'm not sure what illusion BW pulled off per se. In fact, the nature of BW and SC2 are similar in regards to perception
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Originally Posted by
FanaticTemplar
Well, I wonder. Is there an objective reckoning for such things?
The illusion I'm pertaining to is one of story depth.BW (and Sc1 even moreso) seems to have something more going on, in terms of its characters and so forth, than just what the stock story/plot-line shows or dictates to us. It's a bit nebulous I know, but I used the term illusion because it's about something that seems to be there but in reality is not - so in a sense, you can objectively reckon that it doesn't exist at all. However, it is this perceived depth that is what makes an otherwise bland story (all stories are bland if one were to only objectively look at them) endure.
It's not to say that the absence of inclusion of such an illusion is objectively better or worse than the other but in order for one to get swept up by the story and to forgive it's glaring foibles a discernible sense of it has to be there (as Metzen stated he hoped to do with Sc2). Those who don't care for it or can't see it will, understandably, call it out as pretension or a wankfest.
Sc2 certainly has depth but it seems many shades shallower since everything (even the shoe-horned love angle between Raynor and Kerrigan) seems to serve a telegraphed plot/storyline and/or is conflicted/has mixed messages (eg: we are to discern the seriousness and complexity of the context of Raynor's actions and of other major events around the sector though newscasts that are deliberately comedic and imply that we shouldn't take it seriously?). Suspension of disbelief can only be done if we are willing to do so. There are many more and obvious times where that will is sorely tested in Sc2 than anything else before it and that's in consideration and addition to the suspension of disbelief at some of the things that happened in BW!
Re: Gradius's HoTS Story Review
In the context of the above post, I really don't think this is something that can be looked at objectively, or argued for as such.
Using SC1 as an example, taking it on its own basis, it's got a very microscopic perspective that lacks depth of setting. Campaign 1, we're doing our own thing, unaware of what's happening in the larger sector. Campaign 2, we control a single brood - no mention of what the Swarm is doing on Char apart from letting us do all the dirty work, no mention of what the zerg are doing at Aiur, why it feels my forces are the only ones invading the damn planet. Campaign 3, not a peep of info as to what other protoss planets are going through - are reinforcements coming to Aiur? Have the zerg invaded them too? Those questions are never addressed or even raised in the story.
In a larger sense, these are moot questions because we know the answers from outside sources. But any sense of how large the conflict is certainly doesn't come from the game itself. Perhaps one can get the illusion of something greater, but it's all subjective. You can't objectify illusion/fanwank.
