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What? You are aware that one Hellbat can beat one Stalker, right? It does freaking 18 damage vs. everything...Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
And with Medivac speed, there is no way that Stalker can kite those, just put them in Medivac, use boost, and drop them on top of the Stalker.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOtM7r7YJMk
Terrible terrible damage.
Well, frankly I'm ok with the combination of an Armory and a Starport unit being powerful enough to deal with a tier 1.5 unit if the player is microing.
But the concept of a 100 mineral uberfirebat is unholy to its core.
When are they gonna tack on a Vespene cost to those? Even 25 would be something. It's either that or nerf them until they better fit the current cost.
That... was disgusting. Oh, I don't look forward to going against terran...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramiz
Wait, Medivacs heal Hellbats?!
HotS PotD #9: A Thor killing a Medevac with his new anti-air weapon, while his friends take down a contaminated base.
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I forgot about the new damage buff.Quote:
Originally Posted by RamiZ
Granted, in that video, both Stalkers were already at half HP and couldn't micro in that confined space, so I'm still not entirely convinced the Toss in Prog's pic still would have lost so badly if he had a Stalker.
As to pic #9: That's a lotta Contaminate. I really wish we could see it used more.
Not as bad as it looks. Toss should have had a lot more stuff by then, not just 2 stalkers.Quote:
Originally Posted by RamiZ
HotS PotD #10: Swarm Host overload!
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I wasn't sure which picture to use so here are some BONUS PICTURES:
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Of course, he was playing very greedy, but problem is, with the new Medivac speed boost, Hellbat's immobility problems are gone, and they are doing a lot of damage. I don't know, maybe it is just me, but I think that 18 splash damage(30 vs. light...) without any upgrade for a unit that costs 100/0/2 is a bit ridiculous. No matter how slow it is, and even worse is that it got 135 hp and can be healed by the Medivac.Quote:
Originally Posted by sandwich_bird
Wait a minute... in Picture Nine, what is up with all those buildings? Are those infested?
*sigh* This is the problem. It's such an underused ability some people don't even know what it is. The Overseer has an 125nrg ability called Contaminate that will stop production and abilities on buildings for a short time (this includes training units, researching upgrades, spawning larva, using mule, scan, and additional supply, and using spawn creep tumor).Quote:
Originally Posted by Alar
I knew what it was but I haven't used it since it was on the Corruptor and I think even that was for teh lulz.
It was great ability back then when it was 75 energy. There were some strategies involving mass Contaminate, and it was nerfed, since it was pretty damn strong. Also, back in the start of the GSL, ZvZ was mass Roaches + Overseers with Contaminate, as you would completely stop the production of Larvae from the Queens, and you would eventually overrun the opponent with Roaches.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEconomist
The most known match was Idra vs. Zenio at GSL.
Wiki much? Haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by RamiZ
The Swarm Host is, by far, the best new addition to HotS. It's like the mechanically fixed Carrier I so desire.
I remember everything he mentioned without Wiki.
What? Didn't even know that there is something like that on Wiki. I just follow competitive scene a lot, and I remember that match, it was actually the only ZvZ match back then where contaminate was used to that extent, so it was something new and cool to me, and I didn't have access to the GSL vods.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProgramer
I really like them. What I also like about them is that pros are only getting used to them, and most of them are saying "Swarm Hosts are bad" because they don't know how to use them. They are a bit more complex then other units, sure on lower levels you can just siege one position, but on higher levels, you have to constantly relocate them.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
Swarm hosts are the "hard to learn, impossible to master" kind of unit the community has been asking for. Now Blizzard gave it to them, they're complaining that it's too difficult.
RamiZ, was that really a nerf to Contaminate? It costs more, but Overseers got cheaper. One could actually have have twice the number of Seers now by the same gas cost, and the ability got only 60% more expensive. I don't know why the pros stopped contaminating.
It was a nerf to the timings. If you are considering late game, sure it is pretty much the same, but people weren't using them in the late game to begin with. And I agree, it is underused in the late game, don't really know why, it should be used, since as Zerg you are floating with a lot of minerals and gas in the late game.Quote:
Originally Posted by TcheQuevara
About the timings, Destiny(I am pretty sure everyone knows this guy), had some great timing attack where he would attack with Roaches/Lings/Hydras and constantly use contaminate with 3 Overseers on Cybernetic Core. The attack would crush the opponent since the Warp-gate research would never finish! Pros started to abuse it, and it was nerfed not so long after that, if my memory serves me well.
So yeah, they nerfed it from 75 to 125 energy. You have to wait for 75 energy instead of 25 energy with the first Overseer to be able to use it, which is a lot of time, and then when you use it, you have to wait for 50 energy to be able to use it again. It pretty much destroyed all of the timings that Overseer had in these kind of attacks.
EDIT: About the Swarm Hosts, they are not exactly complaining about them being hard, nobody complains about that, that is great for the game. They are complaining about them not doing much, but that is because they are not using them as they should. :)
You seems knowledgeable :)
Why hadn't Destiny ever got any meaningful participation in tournaments? He developt new strategies. Apparently he even influenced the meta game. Why such a creative guy never got actually important (if we don't consider popularity)?
EDIT: nice to know about Cybernetics Core timings. But I don't see why it's not being used in ZvZ. Also, aren't there other timings to exploit? Like upgrade timings? Though being tech-blocked obviously isn't as harmful in the middle-late game as it is in the early game.
Destiny is actually really smart guy, and he was trying to use new strategies and some of them as you said affected the metagame(his Overseers delay or one base Infestor play in ZvZ, after what Zerg players started to use Infestors, until then, everybody were going for mass Roaches and Hydras, or his Fungal walls), he never got far because he just isn't good as pro players. As far as I know, he had never reached Grandmaster league, he was just making too many mistakes that sometimes even gold league players won't make. In terms of strategies, he was definitely on par with some good players, but good execution was the problem. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by TcheQuevara
People liked him for his jokes(why I liked him) and for him being bad mannered, Idra seems like a little kid when compared to Destiny and his trolling, but he was also infamous for all that and all the drama going around him(He was kicked from every team he was in as far as I know).
About ZvZ, to be honest, I am not really sure, but I guess that now isn't worth much, because it happens much later in the game. In ZvZ, gas is very important, even 50 gas, that is 2 Banelings or Roaches, and you won't be able to do anything with just 1 Overseer. So you need to invest a little bit more like 3-4 Overseers, and that is 4 Hydras/1 Infestor, and you know how much difference in fight one Fungal growth can make.
And unlike in other matches, where you are harassing/attacking earlier to delay Terran's/Protoss' push so you can get to the Brood Lords, Infestors and Corrutpors, in ZvZ many attacks come earlier. If you are trying to delay their tech with Overseers, you might as well have ~7-8 Roaches or few Infestors less, which are actually pretty important in that fight, while you are trying to Contaminate their base, and that might cost you the game.
So, that is the reason why you don't see Contaminate in the early/mid game, and later, well, late game in ZvZ rarely happens, because you usually see attacks earlier with Infestors, Hydras and Roaches, where the guy with better micro and positioning wins the fight, and you can almost draw the conclusion from there who will win if both plays till the end equally. There are just no rooms for timings like that, I guess. For upgrades, you can do it with one Overseer, but in ZvZ, even upgrades don't matter as much as good Fungals and positioning.
But even though I watch all these pro games, I am not pro, and I am certainly not the best analytic player in the world, so maybe I am wrong about everything. SC2 is constant evolving game, strategies, metagame and timings are evolving, so in the future we might see some mass Contaminate being used. But as I said, with it being 125 energy, the days of Contaminate timings are long gone.
Too bad they're gone. Now I see... people basically make Overseers for detection. So if they paid 200 gas for 2 detectors before, they'll pay 100 gas for 2 detectors today and that's about it. An extra Contaminate every few minutes isn't worth the cost.
Browder said he wanted to find a way to make the Overseer more interesting. But it doesn't seem like they're doing anything so soon. Maybe after the launch they will teak the energy cost a little? It's hard to balance this... it won't cost just 100 energy because they probably don't want a single seer contaminating 2 buildings. And any cost between 100 and 125 feels stupid.
Yeah, something like that. Even though Overseer right now is being made just for detection, it isn't just detector. You still see some Contaminate on key buildings here and there, together with changelings that can be gamebreaking(in my opinion). They can make them interesting, but I wouldn't mind if they stay the same as they are right now. I would like them to change the ability of Corruptors a lot more... and they said that they are going to change them and Overseers, but they said many things, including changing Ghosts and Nyduses and that didn't happen, so we will see till the end of the Beta what will work out and what won't.
Forgive my bronzeness - but changelings, gamebreaking? I figure how, but not why. Why is it any different from Observers? And if the opening isn't using rines/zealots/lings they're easy to catch.
Tomorrow is February 1st. Do you think they will be testing any new stuff in March? They have less than a month to actually implement anything. I think they're worried about guaranteeing that widow mines, protoss air and swarm hosts are, if not balanced, in a state where they aren't difficult to balance. Also everyone's excited and mostly satisfied with what's new...
I wish they implemented the Corruptor changes, too. But after March 12th, the design experimentation time is over. Will have HotS tournaments in... May? April? I bet that, from now on, they'll just tweak the design of what's already being played with. And after launch it is just number tweaking, no design.
Kind of like all their previous betas? Your foresight is astounding.
That's my bet. Wanna bet? Seriously.
Since we're on the Overseer, here's how I'd fix it.
Retains Generate Creep from Overlord. Makes gas cost of Overseer a bit more of a non-issue, makes Overseer viable in combat situations as support.
Corruption - energy cost reduced to 100. Nice mid-ground between rush of 75 and never-use of 125.
Tick - energy 100, replaces Changeling. Basically a merge of Parasite and Broodling from SC1 Queen. Attaches to target unit, grants vision around unit for 60 seconds. Then dies, dealing 40-60 damage to target unit, with small AoE.
@Che: It's amazing you didn't predict Brazil's collapse(s).
Oh Squibb, you sneaky dickens you, you almost got me.Quote:
Then dies, dealing 40-60 damage to target unit, with small AoE.
I wouldn't mind some other status effect though. Like decreased damage or something. The spell definitely needs spicing up, however, reverting to parasite is going in the wrong direction since parasite is a more boring ability than changeling. Besides, Zerg need easier access to scouting, not harder.
Oh Tychus, you crafty bugger, you almost got me.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEconomist
The usual C&P with minor tweak from the shadow of the Squibb.
But, yeah, I might've been somewhat joking.
HotS PotD #11: The new Bio Ball.
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Hydras in front, roaches in middle, horrible surround due to choke, these screenshots keep getting dumber and dumber.
That is definitely one of the worst engagements by the Zerg I've seen. x)
It is easy to catch Changelings outside of your army, when it gets into your army without you noticing, it is almost impossible to find them. You will almost always have Zealots/Marines/Zerglings in your army, and even if you don't, from all those units in the Deathball, it will be pretty hard to spot Zerglings or Zealots. So you will basically have vision of his army, so you can engage it whenever you like, or when you find it in the bad position.Quote:
Originally Posted by TcheQuevara
Observers are easily killed, and are quite visible when they move. Majority of players kill Observers, and Protoss is wasting a lot of gas. Zerg and Protoss almost always have detectors with their army, and Terran is scanning all the time, you will kill the Observers immediately, where even with detectors, you won't be able to find Changelings.
I would leave the Changeling as it is, Contaminate can be 100 energy, and would modify the Creep Spawn.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
I would make it that Overseer can spawn Creep at range of ~8, and it instantly generates Creep as much as Overlord would do while channeling, but it will be instant, and it will instantly start to disappear.
I would like to try something like this, it will create some interesting scenarios when Zerg is rushing to the opponent, it would replace the Creep Tower(Nydus worm evolution) that is campaign-only unit right now.
Come on, Tychus. Stop being a chicken and make a bet with me. If Blizzard changes anything about corruptor design until launch, I'll write a open post about how cleverer and wiser than me you are. And you do the same if they don't. How about that? Unless you repent having doubted my words, and now acknowledge I'm right.
Demo, damage on an unit without supply cost? Seems terrifc for the late game. I don't know why don't they make Overseers cost 2 supply along with giving 8. It's ugly but not hard to understand. Or Overlords could spawn Overseers which costed supply and didn't give it. I miss parasite too, but changeling is more interesting.
Is giving them spawn creep really a buff? What could an Overseer do with creep that an Overlord couldn't? I like the idea of giving it more uses, make it more of a multiuse caster, but this doesn't feel enough.
Listen man, I'm bronze in the Beta - I make mistakes. You don't have to point out all my flaws and make me feel bad every screen shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEconomist
Also you don't have the whole story - just a screen shot for the whole game. For example for that specific battle I was trying to handle that attack while also handling mutas raiding my base.
I don't think he wanted to put you down, I think he didn't even know that was you on that picture, well, at least I didn't. ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProgramer
Even if he did, why does it matter? I don't have to put Blizzard down with every post. Doesn't mean I'm not going to do it.
I didn't even know those screenshots were of you, LOL.
Still, I don't feel bad. You put the screenshots up for commenting, I commented. You can't only allow asskissing comments. Just ask the rest of the internet.
Never the less, I will stop with the tone. It's never my intention to put someone down for no reason. I honestly had no idea those were you. I thought you were just taking random screenshots of people you played with/against/replays.
Except I agreed with you from the beginning. I said it would be just like the last beta. One month before release and I really don't think there were any significant changes. The two months before, sure, but not this late. So, I agree with you. If you really want to make a bet, you'll need a different one and I'd be glad to go along with it.Quote:
Unless you repent having doubted my words, and now acknowledge I'm right.
Really was a terrible engagement by Zerg. Blue Terran must have steamrolled.
My reasoning for the Changeling to Tick change is logical and multi-layered.
- Changeling is generally ineffective in its role until late-game. You cast them, run them in, and hope the enemy doesn't notice. Often they do, and it dies pretty quick, granting limited vision.
- Changeling is effective late game in roles outside its purpose, namely pathing interference and tanking. Zerg will spam Changelings in front of their army to absorb directed fire, and interfere with Zealots/Zerglings trying to get in range or M&M microing.
- Tick is basically a scaled-down version of the original timed Widow Mine from reveal, making that mechanic viable. Tick creates tension through delayed damage. Ex: A Tick cast on a worker in a base has the same scouting ability as a Changeling if not discovered. If discovered, the victim player must decide if they will let the Ticked unit continue its operations for the next 60 seconds before it explodes (possibly killing other nearby workers) or will micro it away somewhere it cannot be of value to the enemy Zerg player who Ticked it. Ultimately it's a buff to Changeling by creating a weak harassment option along with granting vision, equivalent to giving the Changeling a 1 DPS attack.
- Tick having the minimum damage to kill workers, Marines, and Zerglings, but nothing else (and only after a minute of exposure) makes it useful for possibly delaying an engagement, or forcing one, but never affecting any engagement directly. If needed, the AoE of Tick could be removed, meaning the Overseer could at most use 100 energy to kill a single Marine - which is not exactly cost effective.
My reasoning for retaining Generate Creep on the Overseer, is that its a minor ability with variable uses, that can only help make the Overseer more appealing to create. Every Overseer created is 50 less gas the Zerg has for other high tech units. That creates economic tension - tactics, strategy, risk/reward scenarios.
The goal of all of these changes is to turn the Overseer into an interesting, viable unit through versatility and catering to its strengths as a flying unit best suited for support and harassment.