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Question series nine posted. Deals with Stukov/virus, Narud and more WoL stuff. Or, in other words, ignoring a question (the serum isn't an outright plot hole, but it's avoiding dealing whether it's still effective or not), nitpicking, and the whole "WoL is good/bad/defend it/attack it/stuff that isn't really a question" that was done many threads ago.
Yay.:(
Hated it.
More nonsense with Blizzard refusing to acknowledge that the Kel-Morian Combine and Umojan Protectorate are actual large factions that should have had the ability to take power. How are we ever expected to fix the problem if we don't admit it exists in the first place? The reason that people say BW was ignored is because the UED has just as much of a right to exist as the Dominion does. They took over the damn sector. Yeah they were defeated, well so was Mengsk and now he rules the sector, but I'm not about to get into that again.Quote:
The truth is that Brood War changed very little about the geopolitical situation in the Koprulu sector.
So this is a valid defense for why Wings of Liberty was important, but not Brood War? Yeah, ok. -_-Quote:
I also don't think Wings of Liberty is a rehash of vanilla StarCraft. It does indeed reference the events of vanilla quite a bit, as the scars inflicted on the characters in vanilla are still unresolved. But the plot points and character arcs are completely different. Are the characters in the same state at the end of Wings of Liberty as they were at the end of vanilla StarCraft?
Nonsense. Raynor talks about his past by rambling about Kerrigan and Mengsk countless times. We get a full-blown CGI cinematic about it. Fenix had even more of a right to be mentioned than Kerrigan. Given how highly anthropomorphised the protoss are, how much time Raynor spent with Fenix, and how pissed off he was when Fenix died, it's pretty insulting to just say he's worth "a line of dialog, two at most".Quote:
But that would have been a line of dialogue, two at most. It could not have been a major plot point. After all, the story is about Jim's choice between holding on to past grudges and deciding to hope for a better way.
The Tosh choice was actually one of the stupidest in the game. And they're both pirates/rebels, so they should be best-friends anyway. I feel that Kindregan has not read any of the criticism against Wings of Liberty. =/Quote:
Characters like Tosh present murky choices: do you team up with someone who clearly shares your motivations, even if they don't share your values?
(Looks at Grad's post)
Huh, now I know how Church must feel. We get to share our hatred, even if it's for different reasons.;)
Not a lot of info in this one. Interesting to see the reference of zerg becoming immune to the nanites, especially since Stukov didn't seem to be working for Kerrigan, but for some (short-term) survivors of the cerebrate purge.
These answers are pretty much what I would've expected from them.
The reasoning Kindregan uses to explain how little BW changes the K sector's geopolitical situation is a howler. That he openly asks what needs to be addressed in regards to BW shows just how little he understands the implications of the events during BW.
Saying that nothing changed in BW because the UED came and then got defeated is synonymous as saying nothing changed in Sc1 because the Overmind came and then got defeated. We all know that it isn't true for the Overmind, so why does it have to be for the UED? It wasn't as if they were lacking in the "threat" or "power" department afterall. The only reason why the UED don't have a significant and justified legacy in the current universe is because Blizz decided against giving them one in WoL.
I like how he completely evaded Stukov's status and whereabouts.
On lunch break, so my thoughts in more detailed form:
The Serum
Mixed, about this. On one hand, the lack of any mention of nanites didn’t escape my attention in WoL (and Stukov wasn’t the only one – even ignoring the RPG, there’s still Morik). On the other, it’s more a missing line than a plothole, and it’s something you get used to. On the other, Kindragen doesn’t handle the question well IMO. Just say “nanites no longer work” (which is the implication in his response) and bingo. Would have been good to have it in the game, but you can’t have everything in life I guess.
The Brood War
This isn’t the first time Kindragen’s said that BW changed nothing politically. I get what he means, but the quote in itself is just plain wrong. Protoss-wise, their capital world becomes Shakuras, intergration of Khalai and Nerazim, etc. Terran-wise, we have the curbstomping of the Dominion, which leads to the UP and KMC breaking away and the rise of rebel factions left, right and centre. Zerg-wise, we have Kerrigan becoming the sole leader of the zerg (bar Kaloth, but who’s counting?) A lot changed politically.
On the other hand, I don’t think the game ignored BW per se. Protoss-wise, we don’t see much of the Daelaam outside Zeratul’s campaign, but we weren’t under an obligation to. If anything, I think their absence is good because it suits the story thematically and prevents it being a rehash of the first Great War. Terran-wise, we see the Dominion’s sorry state – could have mentioned the UED I guess, and Fenix, but their legacy is still clearly there. Zerg-wise, Kerrigan’s become closer to the Overmind in persona than in BW, and it’s character development I like. I think the whole “BW was ignored” thing stems from seeing an abundance of GW stuff (Tarsonis, Aiur, etc.) and a lack of direct mention of Fenix and the UED.
Artistic Integrity
Personal gripe, but I did mention ‘hate’ above, and I guess this is it. The way Kindragen defends WoL. I don’t want to go into the ‘ethics’ of artists defending their work, but long story short, there’s a certain method that should be followed (or at least one I’ve been taught to follow, or learnt how to) and it doesn’t involve “well, I think it’s good, you just don’t get it.” Which, looking at the last post, is basically what it boils down to. Yes, the question wasn’t really a question, but I expect something better from a writer who actually does it as a living. Yes, I like WoL. Yes, I will defend WoL. But there are still valid criticisms against it (as in all forms of art), and there’s a certain method to defending a piece of work than what’s done in the thread.
Like I said, personal gripe, but it’s a trend I’ve noticed from Kindragen before. And it bugs me as much now as it did in the past.
Highly debatable here. I (and quite a few others it seems) don't get the feeling the Dominion are in a sorry state at all in WoL, what with all the rebuilding and the "being stronger than ever before" vibe the game sends off. By the end of BW, the Terrans as a whole are in total shambles. It's quite ironic (and perhaps more truthful?) to see the UED's legacy in BW as an overall lessening of Terran power even further in the K-sector when they gutted and dismantled the only Terran power (the Dominion) at the time and their own subsequent and systematic defeat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
With this in mind, the fact that Kindregan goes on to explain that the UED's time in BW provided no geopolitical change is actually the only justifiable (like it or not) reason to explain why WoL's landscape is the way it is now (ie: Dominion being all rosy and still in secure power as if nothing happened).
I assume this is what Kindregan thinks too. Either way, it's a complete and incorrect oversimplification of the real "BW was ignored" argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
I agree with you here. You've done a far better job at defending WoL, Hawki, than this latest attempt by Kindregan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
My cynicism detector may be off, but I didn't quite get the feeling of "I think it's good, you just don't get it" from Kindregan in his previous FAQs as much as this one. Then again, I can understand his response given the question (was it even that?) was essentially just a statement of "This was shit. Please explain". :D
Alright, fair enough. I guess a better way to phrase that would be, if we cut out the Dominion thing, the "ignoring" of BW boils down to certain lines (Zeratul not mentioning Duran when he sees the hybrid) or lack of them (Raynor not mentioning Fenix). As for the Dominion itself though, honestly, it's been discussed to death. I'd rather agree to disagree at this point in time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Of all the "BW ignoring" moments in WoL, the Dominion "thing" is perhaps the biggest oversight of them all. The reason it's harped on is because it's more important than most people tend to realise.
Kindregan states that the geopolitical station does not change in BW (since the fifth QA it seems) because he only sees it in the terms of the UED coming and going. He's guilty of oversimplifying the impact of what the UED actually did during that time - the systematic dismantling of the fledgeling (no-one seems to notice this for some reason although it's important because fledgling governments that are crippled in such a manner are always irreversibly crippled) Dominion, the strongest front the Terrans could have put up against the alien threat at the time, and the leaving of a void. If we contrast this to the end of SC1, we still expected the Overmind/Zerg to have made an impact on the geopolitical situation even IF BW was to never see the light of day. How would it seem if the Protoss just suddenly sprang up in BW as if nothing happened, like the Terrans are represented as doing in WoL?
Considered replying in individual quote format, but felt too awkward. So, responding in point form (keeping my argument to the context of WoL):
1) Pre-BW, the Dominion is allied with the KMC and UP. Post-BW, they aren't. Post-BW, not only have the KMC and UP broken away, but are pretty much sparring partners for influence. While the Dominion is still the top terran dog, the power plays are more pronounced than the Confederate era, which post-GW, dominated terran space, the KMC and UP being rather minor.
2) Pre-BW, the only rebel group distinctly against the Dominion (that we know of) was the CRF, and given Duran's true motivations, it's iffy whether if not for him, it would have even been founded. Post-BW, there's rebel groups everywhere.
3) The Dominion is still in no position to hold back the zerg if it was the zerg's actual aim to erradicate the empire. The only reason Kerrigan is de-infested is that she was after the artifacts rather than conquest, and that the artifacts were used against her.
4) The Dominion is different politically than its pre-BW days. Pre-BW, the seeds of tyranny were there, but only in a relatively small scale, and mostly confined to EU lore. Post-BW, the Dominion has become totalitarian. It may have been a path it took, but I don't think the Brood War helped. Weakens the Dominion, loses alliance with KMC and UP, loses control, so Mengsk does what the Confederacy did, as he put it - plays the tyrant, surviving by presenting other tyrants as threats.
5) There's a difference between the protoss and Dominion situation. The zerg are a destroying force. They destroy not only their enemies, but infrastructure. Destroy so much that come the end of GW, the protoss have to move en masse to Shakuras, and come SGW, only have a few known worlds. In contrast, the UED are an occupying force. They destroy armed forces, but occupy Korhal and Braxis, and they're the only two worlds we know they occupied. The Dominion may have lost its armed forces post-BW, but not their infrastructure. The protoss, in contrast, are down to only a few known worlds.
So yeah, the whole "BW never happened thing" feels like a stretch. True, there are things they could have done in WoL that might have helped reinforce this. Mention raiding of scrapyards, the re-industrialization process Mengsk launched in 2501, the fact that the Dominion has had to innovate (new units), etc. But these would be, at the most, lines of dialogue. I can't look at the Dominion in WoL, look at it in BW, and say "huh, nothing's changed." Not when its raw power is weaker, its power share is weaker, and when it's become a far more oppressive state.
I just don't get why he picked this question and forced himself to answer to the "cardboard characters" allegation. Even I don't think the characters are cardboard per-se, but picking this kind of question is just tactless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
So all pirates and rebels are best friends? How did you come to that conclusion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
His comment seemed spot on too me. Tosh and Raynor both wanted to overthrow Mengsk, but Tosh was crossing moral lines that Raynor would never cross like targeting civilian buildings.
It's called sarcasm.Quote:
Originally Posted by ImperialGuard
You're referring to an obscure newscast where Tosh & his spectres weren't even directly implicated? It's too bad that all the Dominion worlds and installations that Raynor assaulted can also be said to have innocent civilians on them as well. The whole point of the Tosh arc is to assist him with his pirate/rebel activities....so how exactly can Raynor be said to be morally superior? Raynor had no problems plundering artifacts that didn't belong to him and killing protoss that did absolutely nothing wrong. So, no.Quote:
Originally Posted by ImperialGuard
But the main problem with your hypothesis is it's not supported by the game itself. Raynor's problem with Tosh is that he doesn't know if he can trust him, not that he disagrees with his methods. In fact, I don't remember him disagreeing with Tosh's methods at all.
Funny thing is it wasn't even the UED that completely dismantled the Dominion. He disregarded the fact that Kerrigan's swarm continued to do a number on him after the UED took control of Korhal.Quote:
Highly debatable here. I (and quite a few others it seems) don't get the feeling the Dominion are in a sorry state at all in WoL, what with all the rebuilding and the "being stronger than ever before" vibe the game sends off. By the end of BW, the Terrans as a whole are in total shambles. It's quite ironic (and perhaps more truthful?) to see the UED's legacy in BW as an overall lessening of Terran power even further in the K-sector when they gutted and dismantled the only Terran power (the Dominion) at the time and their own subsequent and systematic defeat.
With this in mind, the fact that Kindregan goes on to explain that the UED's time in BW provided no geopolitical change is actually the only justifiable (like it or not) reason to explain why WoL's landscape is the way it is now (ie: Dominion being all rosy and still in secure power as if nothing happened).
The main problem I have is that no rebuilding/repercussions was seen in-game to justify the Dominion's sudden return to power; that apparently nothing I accomplished against the Dominion in BW amounted to anything meaningful in the long run. BW built up what looked like a continued downward spiral towards Mengsk's rule. In return, I came into WoL expecting to see the Dominion in the state of rebuilding; that Mengsk would be struggling to hold his position after enduring such a string of massive defeats. Instead, the first glimpse I see in WoL is Mengsk standing triumphant with the Dominion standing as the top dogs and I'm just wondering to myself...what the hell did they accomplish to make this happen? I just spent most of BW beating the Dominion to oblivion, why are they still all powerful as if I barely touched them? What on earth did beating them down in BW accomplish?
It just pisses me off that what I accomplished in weakening the Dominion throughout Brood War... results in nothing changing the next time we see the Dominion at the start of WoL.
I'm glad to see that you seem to have a solid tack on all this canon, because none of it is telegraphed in BW or WoL by any means. Never in SC1 or BW is it explicit that the Dominion is allied with the KMC and UP or in anyway affiliated/best buds so I don't know how sure you can be without reading the EU. I'm not sure about your sweeping generalisation that there was only one pirate group against the Dominion either (really? Does anyone truly buy that?) either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
All in all, this hinges on one knowing the expanded universe. Not having much knowledge of this EU, it all seems rather arbitrary to me. It just seems to be another "well, you should have read the book" excuse. I don't know what the lored-up WoL naysayers like Gradius think of this though since according to those claim above, they should know better!
This is a given. If the Protoss couldn't stop the Zerg, the Terrans are unlikely to either. Either way, just saying that the Dominion in it's current state can't defend against the Zerg is not a proper justification to explain why the Dominion has magically reformed with power intact and then actually gained greater strength than the Confederates shortly after BW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
The issue here is time frame. You talk about pre-BW and post-BW Dominion as if there was a great span of time between them. There isn't, BW was only a matter of months. At the end of BW, the Dominion was shattered. Not only does it have to pick up its pieces but then it suddenly decides to become fully totalitarian just like that and expect it to work out (of course it worked out, WoL shows us this :rolleyes:)? They have no power whatsoever by BWs end, how can they possibly dupe enough people into following them whilst enacting their post-BW fully totalitarian regime?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
I'm well aware of the actual physical differences between that comparison. The Dominion, as I had mentioned previously and elsewhere, should not be synonymous with "overall Terran might/capability" but rather Mengsk as a person. When I say the Dominions is shattered and destroyed, I'm talking about their political clout, their influence, their power to utilise this "overall Terran might/capability". This is what the UED destroyed. Mengsk is literally left with nothing by BWs end and to have him suddenly and magically "much better than OK" in WoL is head-scratching.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
That maybe so, but there is nothing else to compare the Dominion against in WoL. As far as a layman can tell, the Dominion is not weak in any form in WoL, just inept (like it's leader).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
Hawki will beg to differ. I can see where he's coming from and his interpretation makes sense - the only thing is that it just isn't strongly self-evident anywhere in WoL and at the best, obscure. As a result, it comes across to some as the Dominion/ Mengsk having plot armour until they are written to have otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by RetlocLive
Well, as Kindregan seems to suggest, nothing. Since the UED came and then got defeated, he acknowledges that nothing really happened in BW so it is logical to assume that anything the UED did (like destroying the Dominion) has no significant long-lasting consequence.Quote:
Originally Posted by RetlocLive
I'd say the point of the Tosh arc is the concept of "a mirror darkly," but that's probably been discussed to death by you elsewhere. And the Tal'darim are hardly innocent either. It would have been better if their ruthlessness was established before Monlyth, but as they're quite happy to kill any terran who trespasses (e.g. the Moebius Foundation) and imprison Nerazim for the crime of being Nerazim...yeah. Not exactly knights in shining power suits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
Um...okay. Couple of pointers:Quote:
Originally Posted by RetocLive
*I'm not sure how the Dominion's military might actually surprised anyone. Even if one was completely ignorant of every EU and DLC product, did everyone really turn a blind eye to Ghost? You know, a game that showed the Dominion in a similar state as WoL? Rebuilt military, rebellion rife, their ability to function based on innovative new technologies? Anyone?
*We know of two Dominion worlds damaged in BW - Braxis and Korhal. Braxis, we don't see in WoL. Korhal...is problematic, admittedly. It's getting into semantics, but when you think of the concept art it was based on, Augustgrad does seem a bit too...shiny. Building up a military is one thing. Building up infrastructure and de-toxifying a planet at the same time is another.
*Mengsk is struggling to hold onto his position. The first mission, we're sparking a revolt ala Antiga Prime. The first time we see Mengsk, he's being confronted with the issues of brushfire rebellions. Kind of like the Confederacy, where Mengsk speaks of the Confederacy falling apart, its colonies in open revolt, etc. Anyone?
So yeah. I don't want to do a Kindragen and say "well, you just don't get it," but the fact that the first thing we see of Mengsk is the rebellion issue, the fact that the first mission is sparking a rebellion that exists due to pre-existing sentiment...well, yeah. To each their own I guess.
It's stated in the BW manual that the colonies were united.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
I'm not saying there is, just it's the only one we know of. Come WoL, the dissidence is hammered over and over again (and Ghost, and everything in-between games, but whatever). In BW, apart from the CRF, there isn't any mention of anti-Dominion activities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
I'm trying to keep my evidence to game material as we're discussing WoL itself. If we're discussing the universe as a whole, I'd comment that IMO, the Dominion build-up was done quite well. Stage 1 being the "hopelessness stage" (ala Mercenaries, end of BW), stage 2 being the "great leap forward" (utilizing/rebuilding its infrastructure), stage 3 being the seeds of discontent (protests/rebel groups popping up) and new war machines (ala the Viking), stage 4 being a re-emerging power (DTS), stage 5 being WoL. The timeline of events progresses quite naturally for the most part, bar the occasional blip (case in point being the blockade it enforced against the UP).Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
But speaking of WoL itself, I think we see stage 5 in itself well enough. A rebuilt Dominion (in part) that's held together by fear and force. The problem is that WoL doesn't do enough to reference stages 2 to 4, stuff that I think could have been covered in the loading screens or dialogue. We're told that the Dominion has been rebuilt, but now how, so to speak. Or at least, perhaps not enough as some people might have liked.
I'll reiterate that "well, read the books" isn't a valid excuse. Nor is "read a wiki," because yes, info can be got for free there, but if you have to do homework to enjoy something, you run into the same problem. But again, the whole "nothing happened in BW!" argument does seem like the other logical extreme, because it seems that not only people didn't get 'it' from WoL, but were in the dark about Ghost as well. I can't look at the WoL Dominion without seeing a corrupt body that's bursting at the seems, that's become as bad as the Confederacy, and say "huh, nothing's changed" in good conscience. Not when Kerrigan has come back "to finish the job," as Raynor puts it, said job beginning in BW, and the zerg mass power being so great that the only reason the Dominion can hold any ground is to write off the Fringe Worlds, and hope that Kerrigan doesn't actually bother with much bar hunting the artifacts.
Actually, at this point in time, I'd say the terrans are stronger than the protoss, but that's beside the point. Nor can I say the Dominion has more power than the Confederacy. The "strength" people cite the Dominion as having is more along the lines of innovation. New units that can do a better job of killing zerg, to actual bayonets on gauss rifles, to a better understanding of how to fight. Probably getting into fanwank territory, but compare the trench scenes of BW and WoL. In BW, terrans are victims, fighting for their lives, zerg are terrifying. Come WoL, the line can be held, the zerg less terrifying. I'm citing 'it' again, but 'it', in WoL for me, was a sign that humanity was coming into its own, that despite the fact that the zerg were disproportiantely more powerful, were no longer mere bystanders in a cosmic war between the zerg and protoss. Of course, HotS may throw that out the window, and I know that many people will disagree with my interpretation of 'it,' but I did and do give WoL credit for presenting 'it.'Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Putting it simply, the same way Napoleon stays in power in Animal Farm. Despite failing the people, despite their enemies occupying the land, said enemies are still portrayed as a worse alternative to the chance of strength through unity. And when those alternatives in the Brood War were the UED (invaders from Earth, the proverbial bogymen of terran culture for the last few centuries) and the zerg ('nuff said), it's understandable that some would stick with the old. It's also understandable that some wouldn't, hence the prevalance of rebellion against the Dominion. The totalitarianism works for those that endure it, not so well for those who don't considering how many enemies the Dominion has.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
I never followed ghost. Did it actually show the Dominion as more powerful than Umoja & the KMC?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
We couldn't very well play on every single Dominion planet as the UED. It was stated that the UED clamped down on the rest of the Dominion. A "signpost" of storytelling.Quote:
*We know of two Dominion worlds damaged in BW - Braxis and Korhal.
You mean this:Quote:
*Mengsk is struggling to hold onto his position. The first mission, we're sparking a revolt ala Antiga Prime. The first time we see Mengsk, he's being confronted with the issues of brushfire rebellions. Kind of like the Confederacy, where Mengsk speaks of the Confederacy falling apart, its colonies in open revolt, etc. Anyone?
"Emperor, the threat of a new zerg invasion is still very real - but instead of expanding our fleets, you've squandered trillions on hunting down has-been rebels like Jim Raynor!"
Has-been. They're not a threat anymore because he got all that stuff sorted out in 4 years. To me, all this shows is that Mengsk is not being frugal with his money because he has so much of it. He can rebuild his military, refurbish korhal, and spend "trillions" on hunting down rebels that are overall insignificant. What's next? Designing a starcraft theme park? :P
Of course we're only discussing WoL, because if we were discussing novels/comics I'd point to the one where the Dominion is so powerful that they're forcing Umojans to sneak food to their people in crates....during 2500.Quote:
I'm trying to keep my evidence to game material as we're discussing WoL itself. If we're discussing the universe as a whole,
That's pretty much how I feel about it.Quote:
I'm trying to keep my evidence to game material as we're discussing WoL itself. If we're discussing the universe as a whole, I'd comment that IMO, the Dominion build-up was done quite well. Stage 1 being the "hopelessness stage" (ala Mercenaries, end of BW), stage 2 being the "great leap forward" (utilizing/rebuilding its infrastructure), stage 3 being the seeds of discontent (protests/rebel groups popping up) and new war machines (ala the Viking), stage 4 being a re-emerging power (DTS), stage 5 being WoL. The timeline of events progresses quite naturally for the most part, bar the occasional blip (case in point being the blockade it enforced against the UP).
But speaking of WoL itself, I think we see stage 5 in itself well enough. A rebuilt Dominion (in part) that's held together by fear and force. The problem is that WoL doesn't do enough to reference stages 2 to 4, stuff that I think could have been covered in the loading screens or dialogue. We're told that the Dominion has been rebuilt, but now how, so to speak. Or at least, perhaps not enough as some people might have liked.
Hah, call yourself a StarCraft fan?:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
Only a mention in an interview about "larger (terran) factions" pretty much doing their own thing while the Dominion dealt with internal dissent (e.g. the KLF).Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
Actually wouldn't call it a signpost, but that's semantics. But if you're using Fenix's "UED grips the Dominion with an iron fist quote" as evidence, then it's countered by Kerrigan's quote that the UED has only begun to clamp down, that taking control of the zerg is the beginning. We can assume the UED grips Korhal with an iron fist, but I doubt it had the manpower to directly administer every Dominion world. If anything, their plan would be:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
1) Take control of Korhal, saying "we rule you now."
2) Take control of the zerg, saying "if you don't toe the line, feel our critters' wrath."
3) Profit!
The "has been" line is Kate's assertion, not Mengsk's. It's an assertion he doesn't agree with, nor is it one that the rebels themselves would agree with either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
Though a theme park might exist though. Certainly Zerger King does.:confused:
Like I said earlier, it's a blip. It's a blip because it doesn't match how the Dominion is portrayed before the story (Mercenaries), nor does it match how it's portrayed afterwards, where it's either struggling to deal with internal dissent, or vying with the KMC or UP for influence. It's a blip I feel that stems more from the timeline retcon than anything, that the events got lumped into 2500 when it was decided to include Colin in Ghost Academy. It's a blip I feel could be fanwanked into conformity by saying the blockade was pre-existing (I, M allows for this technically) and Mengsk didn't utilize his remaining forces when he went after Kerrigan, instead raiding scrapyards and the like. I know it's a stretch, but I'd rather search for a solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
(Since the blockade was apparently lifted by 2502 at the latest, it's kind of a moot point anyway. Maybe it was a show of faux strength to get the UP to agree to the tariffs the Dominion later set up?)
We've already talked about this: the Fenix quote references just the Dominion, and Kerrigan is talking about the rest of the sector. Their plan was to use the zerg to pacify the protoss, and there's no indication they would have used it against humans. The "beginning" for the UED is in reference to their generally intolerant policies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
Dugalle particularly expressed an animosity primarily towards Mengsk, and the UED's main beef seemed to have been with him. For example we know the UED allowed Moria a degree of independence, which isn't exactly a sign that they can't administer every world, but that they don't necessarily have a beef with the other two original founding factions. The UED did all the right things to remove Mengsk from power, and we know they accomplished their stated goal of taking control of Dominion colonies.
Mengsk also lost at Omega, and he didn't rule the sector beforehand. So why does it follow that he should totally replace the UED when they both get defeated? What does he have that the UED doesn't? It's not inconceivable that the UED had other leaders besides Stukov & Dugalle. The faction should not be 100% obliterated from existence just because those two people died.
Of course Mengsk wouldn't agree with it. If Kate asked the question, then she's probably not the only one thinking it.Quote:
The "has been" line is Kate's assertion, not Mengsk's. It's an assertion he doesn't agree with, nor is it one that the rebels themselves would agree with either.
I think this is a stretch. It was part 1 of the mission statement to take control of the "rogue" terran colonies, and there's no reason why Umoja or Moria should be given clemency bar being less powerful than the Dominion. It's how imperialism works. Come in, make your mark, slowly exert more control. The zerg being the "beginning" is an example of total control. Presumably the UED would have exerted more control over time as they reinforced their beachhead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
1) The UED hasn't been obliterated. There's still remnants in the sector.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
2) The UED can't rely on local support. Mengsk can. Mengsk can, at least, take credit for liberating the Dominion from the UED. The average terran however, has every reason to hate the UED and no reason to love them.
3) The UED can't replenish its numbers. You might get a few dissidents joining a splinter faction, but wanting Mengsk gone doesn't necessarily equal wanting Earth in.
There's no proof that Moria or Umoja were given any clemency, just that they weren't explicitly targeted like Mengsk and his power structure. The fact that they were allowed to proceed as normal yet Mengsk wasn't is proof of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
1) I know. Those remnants would have been more than Mengsk should have had at the end of Omega.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
2) The UED relied on local support during their entire campaign i.e. conscripting the Dylarians and people like Duran. I don't see how Mengsk can take credit for liberating the Dominion without revealing that he was working with Kerrigan & Raynor. As far as the media goes, sure they didn't have enough time to get everyone one their side, but honestly, this whole "boogeymen from Earth" myth is something that should be dispelled easily. If I was living in the k-sector I'd want the might of the Earth colonies protecting me instead of a displaced & weakened politician.
3) Not wanting Earth in does not mean Mengsk is therefore the only other option. There are other more powerful factions that should have taken advantage. The UED is but one example. Mengsk on the other hand has proven himself to be a failure. So again I ask, why him? He can't protect people from aliens. He was just demolished. What does he have going for him besides the fact that he was the former ruler of a fledgling government that just failed?
The "nothing's change" argument has nothing to do with how the Dominion actually works as a governing body (as an aside, the Dominion was corrupt from the beginning of its conception; The Inauguration cinematic is a fine example of dramatic irony because one could almost take what Mengsk's motivation for this speech was at face value if not for the audience knowing better that he's a corrupting influence/ piece of shit), it's more about how the "Mengsk/Dominion is top dog" status quo remaining that way after we've been treated with his/it's utter dismantling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
At BW's end, Mengsk is totally bereft of any power over larger Terran affairs and has been openly shown to be an ineffective leader multiple times, let alone "Protector of the Terrans". Mengsk needs to have some power in order to keep or expand it and given that Terran society is a dog-eat-dog world, Mengsk's loss of power and influence in BW could have easily meant someone else in a better position than Mengsk at the time (to say that Mengsk is the only one is just plain absurd and facetious) to just sweep up the reigns. In contrast, Napolean "stays in power" only because he never really lost any throughout Animal Farm. This is not taking into account, that Mengsk's Dominion was only a nascent government that was not more than a year old before its fall and dismantling in BW - how that inspires confidence in the wider Terran populace to continue supporting someone who is a proven failure is beyond belief. At least the Confeds lasted for almost two centuries before being totally wiped by an unstoppable force. Whereas we have Mengsk/Dominion blowing hard that they are better than the Confeds to only have their government beheaded in a matter of months by an expeditionary fleet. Yeah, I'll still back Mengsk any day! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
^ Felt the need to give the last word without actually giving one, huh?
I was hoping those posts would be completely removed. Ideally I wouldn't have responded to them in the first place, but...well, go figure.:(