Karune posts regarding PC, Batch 53, and YouTube (09/25/09)

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Originally Posted by Skyze

um.. Thats like saying "Why make probes anymore, if they are forcing us to make probes, screw that"..

You dont HAVE to make probes, you can mine with the first 4 you get (or 6 in sc2 i think?) but if you want to have a better chance at winning, you make more.. Same as Proton charge.

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I already said this argument is superfluous. Stating "Don't do things which lead to success if you want to succeed but don't want to do them" is hardly a profound argument. Building workers has been integral to RTS games since WarCraft 1, so has become an accepted part of them. Proton Charge, however, is not necessary and only introduces repetition as an illusion to macro decision making.

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Originally Posted by Skyze

I dont understand what your issue with it is, its not that huge of an advantage anyways if people don't use it I bet. Bisu or any good protoss would still beat you easily without using it while you use it constantly.

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Thought I maid it clear but I'll explain it again. My issue is with the monotony of the chore and the lack of decision making inherent within as it relates to success in playing the Protoss. Not sure about you guys, but I play games to escape the daily chores of life, while at the same time hoping to have fun and succeed.

Still not getting it? Allow me to break it down further:

1) Start up StarCraft 2.
2) Play a random match against another player online.
3) Choose Protoss as a race.
4) When you feel the time is right early on in the game, build an obelisk next to your Nexus.
5) Activate an internal clock in your head reminding you that from this point on you will need to periodically cast Proton Charge over your minerals every X seconds. Ingrain this in your head, and reserve a portion of your brainpower which could otherwise be used on fighting tactics. Accept the harsh reality that in order to be the best possible player you must do this every X seconds to maintain the competitive edge.
6) Realize this exact same thing will need to be done systematically in every subsequent game playing as the Protoss.
7) Close StarCraft 2.

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Originally Posted by Blazur

1) Start up StarCraft 2.
2) Play a random match against another player online.
3) Choose Protoss as a race.
4) When you feel the time is right early on in the game, build a Nexus.
5) Activate an internal clock in your head reminding you that from this point on you will need to periodically MAKE PROBES over your minerals every X seconds until ~20 minutes. Ingrain this in your head, and reserve a portion of your brainpower which could otherwise be used on fighting tactics. Accept the harsh reality that in order to be the best possible player you must do this every X seconds to maintain the competitive edge.
6) Realize this exact same thing will need to be done systematically in every subsequent game playing as the Protoss.
7) Close StarCraft 2.

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See the similarity?

I'd like to know what makes building workers accepted, and what makes proton charge rejected?

Who is in charge of accepting and rejecting RTS mechanics and features? I don't believe I saw a poll that suggests proton charge is too repetitive for a good RTS.

Why do I have to build Supply buildings(or units aka overlord) over and over... this obviously has no purpose other than it introduces repetition as an illusion to macro decision making.

I can acept the spawn larva and the mules, since there are multiple alternative ways to use them( larva offensive, scan instead of mules), but not the proton charge.
They should change atleast the proton charge, since in my opinion it's really "bad" compared to the other ones. It's the worst macro design of all the three.

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I'd like to know what makes building workers accepted, and what makes proton charge rejected?

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It's essentially what D-Squid said: there are times and strategies when you stop building workers for a time. Thus, while 90% of the time you're pumping workers constantly, there is that 10% of the time when you're not, when you're doing something that really needs those 50 minerals.

PC has none of this. There is never a reason not to use it.

Also, ArcherofAiur clearly isn't conversant with Zerg play, as Zergs do not constantly build workers. They build them in fits and starts, between bouts of pumping units.

That's not to say that, in a more perfect macro-game, pumping workers wouldn't be removed in favor of something else. But it isn't nearly the obvious busywork that PC is.

Also, in SC2, pumping workers is easier. You don't need to go back to your base to make them mine. So it doesn't take your visual attention away from the map.

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Why do I have to build Supply buildings(or units aka overlord) over and over... this obviously has no purpose other than it introduces repetition as an illusion to macro decision making.

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No, it doesn't. You are explicitly trading one resource (minerals) for another (supply). Further, these are on-map objects (supply-depots), and thus they are subject to attack. That is, you can attack someone's supply directly.

Also, it's strategic in nature. You do not have to build supply stuff unless you need supply. And the rate of needing supply is entirely dependent on the strategy you're employing. So it isn't a fixed "I must build a depot every X seconds;" it varies throughout the game.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Also, ArcherofAiur clearly isn't conversant with Zerg play, as Zergs do not constantly build workers. They build them in fits and starts, between bouts of pumping units.

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Thats a good point but I actually started comparing PC to making probes. I probably shouldnt have generalized to workers.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

It's essentially what D-Squid said: there are times and strategies when you stop building workers for a time. Thus, while 90% of the time you're pumping workers constantly, there is that 10% of the time when you're not, when you're doing something that really needs those 50 minerals.

PC has none of this. There is never a reason not to use it.

Also, ArcherofAiur clearly isn't conversant with Zerg play, as Zergs do not constantly build workers. They build them in fits and starts, between bouts of pumping units.

That's not to say that, in a more perfect macro-game, pumping workers wouldn't be removed in favor of something else. But it isn't nearly the obvious busywork that PC is.

Also, in SC2, pumping workers is easier. You don't need to go back to your base to make them mine. So it doesn't take your visual attention away from the map.

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I think where the benefit for casual players comes in to thing is that you wont need as many probes just to boost your resource harvesting. Rather than including probe production into your macro you could instead use the obelisk to cast proton charge a couple times on the minimap.

Considering you have to tap the key 1 time for every unit, you are tapping 1 key to get to your hotkey, then as many as 3, 6, or 9 times to build at 3 expansions. While in comparison, you can simply tap 1 hotkey, press the hotkey for PC, then select the mineral fields you are harvesting from on the minimap.

Building workers:
- Tap hotkey
- Tap worker key 9 times for 3 workers at each base (3 bases)

10 actions

Cast pc:
-Tap hotkey for 3 obelisks
- Tap PC hotkey
- Click spot 1
- Tap PC hotkey
- Click spot 2
- Tap PC hotkey
- click spot 3

7 actions..

I think they are comparable in immediate benefit, and in the long run save you much more time than building workers. Building workers will eventually have a bigger benefit, but for the casual player this may be a good trade off. Less time macroing and more time doing micro.

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Why do I have to build Supply buildings(or units aka overlord) over and over... this obviously has no purpose other than it introduces repetition as an illusion to macro decision making.

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Wow bringing this up again? This argument is going nowhere, this was brought up already before and argued and now it's being brought up again?

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Originally Posted by Pandonetho

Wow bringing this up again? This argument is going nowhere, this was brought up already before and argued and now it's being brought up again?

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No offense, but simply saying something has been brought up before and argued doesn't mean a damn thing. I haven't brought it up before, nor have I argued it. So, maybe you've argued with someone else about it, but if they lost the argument or didn't lose the argument, that has absolutely nothing to do with me.

Now, if you actually have a real point to make, instead of just claiming something has been discussed and thrown out, please do so.

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Originally Posted by nicol

No, it doesn't. You are explicitly trading one resource (minerals) for another (supply). Further, these are on-map objects (supply-depots), and thus they are subject to attack. That is, you can attack someone's supply directly.

Also, it's strategic in nature. You do not have to build supply stuff unless you need supply. And the rate of needing supply is entirely dependent on the strategy you're employing. So it isn't a fixed "I must build a depot every X seconds;" it varies throughout the game.

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Trading one resource (energy) for more resources (Minerals), is no different than trading minerals for supply. You are forced every 8 supply to build a new supply building or an overlord. There is no strategic decision in that process, as you either build it, or you cant build any units, aka causing you to lose the game. In PC you either cast it, or you don't get an increase in resource harvesting, however, that alone wont cost you the game.

I believe it was ArcherofAiur who had made that point a while ago.

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Trading one resource (energy) for more resources (Minerals), is no different than trading minerals for supply. You are forced every 8 supply to build a new supply building or an overlord. There is no strategic decision in that process, as you either build it, or you cant build any units, aka causing you to lose the game.

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And you fail to realize that building supplies actually have other variables. They very largely affect build orders, supplies can act as walls or barricades, pylons allow for things such as building a gateway up a cliff and includes warp-in functionality, and producing overlords is part of producing units, which I believe Nicol brought up earlier is the important part of macro. Overlords have more than one purpose, so do supply depots in SC2, so do Pylons in SC2. What's your point? That it's just as monotonous as building workers? Well you're wrong.

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In PC you either cast it, or you don't get an increase in resource harvesting, however, that alone wont cost you the game.

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It's a huge variable and if you lose you can bet that not using PC was one factor.