Re: Heart of the Swarm Sept 2012 beta unit details - leaked video
It's from the game:
Terran Command Center
Adjutant online. Good morning, Captain. Our long voyage from Earth is over, and we are holding a stationary position near the borders of Dominion space. I trust that the effects from your long cold sleep have worn off by now. If not, the Med Officer can provide you with additional CryoStim supplements. Admiral DuGalle has issued a proclamation to the entire fleet via transmat. I'll patch it through to you now.
And the BW manual says they sent the fleet when they learned about the second Overmind. That's a very small timeframe for them to get here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shadow Archon
Anyways, Zerg are immortal, why would time matter?
Because the journey lasted 60+ years one-way for the Overmind. Not to mention that a random sojourn to Zerus while the hybrids are about to invade sounds stupid.
Re: Heart of the Swarm Sept 2012 beta unit details - leaked video
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
It's from the game:
Terran Command Center
Adjutant online. Good morning, Captain. Our long voyage from Earth is over, and we are holding a stationary position near the borders of Dominion space. I trust that the effects from your long cold sleep have worn off by now. If not, the Med Officer can provide you with additional CryoStim supplements. Admiral DuGalle has issued a proclamation to the entire fleet via transmat. I'll patch it through to you now.
And the BW manual says they sent the fleet when they learned about the second Overmind. That's a very small timeframe for them to get here.
And? Being asleep for two weeks is a long cold sleep. We have a time frame and nothing suggests that the time frame inside the ship is any different.
Quote:
Because the journey lasted 60+ years one-way for the Overmind. Not to mention that a random sojourn to Zerus while the hybrids are about to invade sounds stupid.
It doesn't matter if it sounds stupid, and FTL travel for the hivemind could have simply developed by that point.
Re: Heart of the Swarm Sept 2012 beta unit details - leaked video
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shadow Archon
And? Being asleep for two weeks is a long cold sleep. We have a time frame and nothing suggests that the time frame inside the ship is any different.
Lol. You don't freeze people for a two week journey or put them in a coma. The Queen of Blades novel claims that it took Raynor two weeks to get to Char, and none of his crew had to freeze themselves. The adjutant seems pretty clear they just awoke from "cryogenic cold sleep" as was described in the manual, which we already know the UED love to use, and she offers cryostims, which are given to probably speed up heart rate & everything else after you've been unfrozen.
Traveling at 1.5 million times the speed of light like the UED originally did is an absurdity, not that Blizzard has any problem with that, which is why we'll be going to Zerus nonetheless. My theory is the only one that fits the facts and fixes this contradiction, at least for the UED. Take it or leave it, really doesn't matter to me. The SC lore is already a mess. :P
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shadow Archon
and FTL travel for the hivemind could have simply developed by that point.
I find it funny that I have to prove my statements beyond a shadow of a doubt when they should already be self-evident, but Blizzard's inattention to lore can be handwaved away with "the hivemind simply evolved". Right, the zerg, which don't use technology, can just randomly evolve and reduce their travel times from 60+ years (that's being generous) to a few weeks or months. The zerg open up wormholes, and they go through the wormholes, there is nothing to evolve. Kerrigan cannot seem to top the Overmind and create another being such as herself, but she can somehow top all his efforts at wormhole travel.
Re: Heart of the Swarm Sept 2012 beta unit details - leaked video
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Lol. You don't freeze people for a two week journey or put them in a coma.
Does it really matter what you would do in a fictional case. Obviously they used it because they didn't need to worry about feeding an army or using a lot of power. Cyrogenics have uses in short durations as well as long.
Quote:
The Queen of Blades novel claims that it took Raynor two weeks to get to Char, and none of his crew had to freeze themselves.
It also says a Miss-calculated Warp Jump can result in the Hyperion traveling millions of light years. We also don't know the distance and its relevance to UED warp travel, especially considering the jump made in Starcraft 2. Four seconds to reach another solar system assuming a distance from Sol to Alpha Centauri, your looking at a light year per second, which is in the million C range.
Quote:
The adjutant seems pretty clear they just awoke from "cryogenic
cold sleep" as was described in the manual, which we already know the UED love to use, and she offers
cryostims, which are given to probably speed up heart rate & everything else after you've been unfrozen.
Yet, we know that it still took only two weeks or a month. That alone doesn't suggest time dilation.
Quote:
Traveling at 1.5 million times the speed of light like the UED originally did is an absurdity, not that Blizzard has any problem with that, which is why we'll be going to Zerus nonetheless. My theory is the only one that fits the facts and fixes this contradiction, at least for the UED. Take it or leave it, really doesn't matter to me. The SC lore is already a mess. :P
Seeing as that in SC2, doing some math with the Escape from Mar Sara scene that the Hyperion had around 1.5 million C speeds, its not that problematic.
Quote:
I find it funny that I have to prove my statements beyond a shadow of a doubt when they should already be self-evident, but Blizzard's inattention to lore can be handwaved away with "the hivemind simply evolved". Right, the zerg, which don't use technology, can just randomly evolve and reduce their travel times from 60+ years (that's being generous) to a few weeks or months.
This is the Zerg we're talking about. Their biology doesn't have to make sense. If you care about verisimilitude at this point, your in the wrong place. We know that they have developed better FTL in that time seeing as how the original Korpulu trip was faster than the 60 year trip and they have developed better manipulations of Warp Space/Void than the Terrans at the modern time.
We know that the UED has faster FTL and that said FTL can be activated in seconds in some instances. Therefore, the Zerg have better FTL since they caught up to them.
There's nothing that outright states time dilation.
Your trying to force a contradiction when there isn't one.
Quote:
The zerg open up wormholes, and they go through the wormholes, there is nothing to evolve. Kerrigan cannot seem to top the Overmind and create another being such as herself, but she can somehow top all his efforts at wormhole travel.
Seeing as wormhole travel is an unknown factor in how it is done and is capable of Cerebrates not part of the main hivemind, it has to do little with the Overmind as an individual. The ability since than has progressed since than, therefore the answer is the Zerg developed better FTL manipulations.
Leviathans are capable of Warp space travel as well, so we know that Void/wormhole manipulation en masse isn't the only kind of travel.
Re: Heart of the Swarm Sept 2012 beta unit details - leaked video
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shadow Archon
Seeing as that in SC2, doing some math with the Escape from Mar Sara scene that the Hyperion had around 1.5 million C speeds, its not that problematic.
What numbers did you use & where did you get them out of curiosity?
Quote:
It also says a Miss-calculated Warp Jump can result in the Hyperion traveling millions of light years.
1) Quite possible Raynor doesn't know what he's talking about since it's just his thoughts. :P
2) Perhaps he means the destination gets set to millions of light years away, kind of like the navigational error that happened to the supercarriers.
Quote:
If you care about verisimilitude at this point, your in the wrong place.
Don't remind me. :P
Quote:
We know that they have developed better FTL in that time seeing as how the original Korpulu trip was faster than the 60 year trip and they have developed better manipulations of Warp Space/Void than the Terrans at the modern time.
How do we know the zerg developed better manipulations of warp space than the terrans? Also, modern terrans are technologically behind the Earth colonies that sent them there, so how is that relevant?
Quote:
We know that the UED has faster FTL and that said FTL can be activated in seconds in some instances. Therefore, the Zerg have better FTL since they caught up to them.
Do you see those stars, nebulae & the giant planet & moon in the background where the zerg "catch up to" the UED? Yeah, that's not hyperspace or FTL.
Quote:
There's nothing that outright states time dilation.
Obviously. Like I said, if you're fine with any one faction being able to traverse the entire galaxy in laughably insane speeds, when previous works of fiction have made it pretty clear that it takes a decent amount of time to get anywhere in the K-sector itself, then no, there's no problem. If you're fine with the fact the UED freezes their entire crew for every excursion they go on, again, no problem.
Your calculations showed the Hyperion traveling at 1.5 million c, yet it took it 2 weeks to reach Char in Queen of Blades. Must have received a hell of an upgrade! :D
Quote:
Seeing as wormhole travel is an unknown factor in how it is done and is capable of Cerebrates not part of the main hivemind, it has to do little with the Overmind as an individual. The ability since than has progressed since than, therefore the answer is the Zerg developed better FTL manipulations.
Leviathans are capable of Warp space travel as well, so we know that Void/wormhole manipulation en masse isn't the only kind of travel.
Do you have any external evidence in the lore that the zerg FTL capabilities have progressed? Aside from this one instance in HoTS when Blizzard suddenly decided that we now need to get to Zerus in ludicrous speeds because of their hard-on for childish fan-service.
Re: Heart of the Swarm Sept 2012 beta unit details - leaked video
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
What numbers did you use & where did you get them out of curiosity?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
2504
During the Escape from Mar Sara cinematic, we see the Hyperion jump from Mar Sara to another solar system. We know this because Mar Sara's sun is behind the Hyperion, and it jumps away in the opposite direction.
It takes nearly twelve seconds from "spinning" drives two & six. The vessel enters the rift at 0:44 and exits it at 0:48. While we see it jump out, we do not know which star it was jumping from in that shot. For a low end assuming a distance of 4.2421 light years, roughly the distance between Sol and Alpha Centauri, which is the closest solar system to earth at the moment, you get 1.060525 light years per second, or 91,629.36 light years per day, or 33,444,716.4 light years per year.
Most of this is speculation, but that, at the moment, is all we have.
Well, not one point five million, a little bit more, but you get the point.
Quote:
1) Quite possible Raynor doesn't know what he's talking about since it's just his thoughts. :P
I would assume that the captain knows more about his ship and wouldn't be talking nonsense. :p
Quote:
2) Perhaps he means the destination gets set to millions of light years away, kind of like the navigational error that happened to the supercarriers.
It wouldn't be a problem than. Or do we assume they can't disengage mid flight.
Quote:
Don't remind me. :P
Oh, I will. :p
Remember, this is the fiction where terraforming accidents blow up planets, Terrans have the industry to rebuild the crust, mantle, and core of worlds purified in a single year, and Protoss ships put out more energy per energy blast than the Sun does every second. :p
Quote:
How do we know the zerg developed better manipulations of warp space than the terrans?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberty's Crusade
“This”—Duke pointed at the screen—“is the work of an alien race, the Protoss. From what I’m being
told, they warped in from nowhere, closer to the planet than we would ever attempt.
The Zerg can arrive inside a planet's atmosphere with FTL, the Terrans' don't attempt to get that close.
Quote:
Also, modern terrans are technologically behind the Earth colonies that sent them there, so how is that relevant?
Because they have developed better FTL than what the Terrans in the Korpulu sector has access to.
Quote:
Do you see those stars, nebulae & the giant planet & moon in the background where the zerg "catch up to" the UED? Yeah, that's not hyperspace or FTL.
And? They had to have used it because they had the chance to. Otherwise, we assume that Dugalle's an idiot. Occam's Razor suggests he did use it, but it simply couldn't get him far enough away.
Drives can be used in seconds according to Starcraft 2 and uprising, so the fact that his superior FTL couldn't get him far enough away from the Zerg suggests that they have FTL to match.
Quote:
Obviously. Like I said, if you're fine with any one faction being able to traverse the entire galaxy in laughably insane speeds, when previous works of fiction have made it pretty clear that it takes a decent amount of time to get anywhere in the K-sector itself, then no, there's no problem.
Well, most of those were either smaller ships or before the UED made an appearances. I don't see the problem there.
Anyways, its simply due to the lack of scale Blizzard has for the fiction, what with purification and Terrans being able to match the Protoss with no where near enough power in their weapons to do the job, it really makes you wonder exactly do they think about how much energy actually goes through a purification process, and the fact that these weapons don't instantly gib Protoss vessels. That and the magic acid.
Quote:
If you're fine with the fact the UED freezes their entire crew for every excursion they go on, again, no problem.
Not every excursion. If your taking a two week journey and have a way to minimize power waste on awake people who don't have anything to do, why not use it?
Quote:
Your calculations showed the Hyperion traveling at 1.5 million c, yet it took it 2 weeks to reach Char in Queen of Blades. Must have received a hell of an upgrade! :D
I think that the Korpulu Terrans managed to get their hands on a few UED FTL drives or that the Protoss really like Jimmy.
Quote:
Do you have any external evidence in the lore that the zerg FTL capabilities have progressed?
External as from Metzen? No, but I do have some examples in the lore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Starcraft Manual
Thus, the Zerg swarms slowly made their
way towards the burgeoning worlds of
Humanity. The journey lasted for sixty years,
but eventually the massive, extended Zerg
Swarm reached the outskirts of the Terran
Sector of Koprulu.
Quote:
Eventually, the warp-drive engines of the
four supercarriers reached critical meltdown.
After twenty-eight years of warp travel, the
huge ships emerged into real space near the
edge of a habitable star system. Some 60,000
light years from the Earth, their engines
destroyed and their life-support batteries
nearly exhausted, the ships engaged their
emergency protocols and plummeted towards
the nearest habitable worlds in the system.
Assuming the Terrans reverse engineered this Warp Jump tech, they had faster FTL at the time.
Now in Queen of Blades:
Quote:
As the cerebrate swelled with pride, a great darkness descended upon the crater, a shadow of the mass that drifted into view high above them. Beyond the upper reaches of the planet’s dying atmosphere hung a massive storm, a swirl of orange and violet gases that spun around strange flickering lights. They moved faster and faster, the colors merging in their fury, until the center of the storm collapsed in upon itself, light and color giving way to a shadowy circle far darker then even the space hovering beyond.
“Now you have grown strong enough to bear the rigors of warp travel with the Swarm,” the Overmind stated, its words sending a thrum of power through the Swarm. “Thus we shall make our exit from this blasted world and secure the Chrysalis within the Hive Cluster upon the planet char.”
Going off of Starcraft:
Quote:
Meanwhile, the entirety of the extended Zerg Swarm teleported through space-time and began its long awaited invasion of the hated Protoss Homeworld of Aiur.
The Zerg arrive almost instantly going from Tarsonis to Char and from Char to Auir, depending upon how you take "teleport," and generally how that word is used in the fiction, it means instantaneous transport. The Terrans took weeks, the Zerg didn't therefore Zerg > Terran FTL.
Quote:
Aside from this one instance in HoTS when Blizzard suddenly decided that we now need to get to Zerus in ludicrous speeds because of their hard-on for childish fan-service.
I don't think that's a contradiction of itself going off of other examples.
Just to note, I'm a big die hard Doctor Who fan and an Anime Otaku, I care not for Verisimilitude or realism in fiction, so...yeah.
Re: Heart of the Swarm Sept 2012 beta unit details - leaked video
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shadow Archon
Well, not one point five million, a little bit more, but you get the point.
33 million c is just nuts. Dude. Raynor could cross the entire galaxy in one day. You are right though that this is speculation: what kind of time dilation does the BC undergo?
Quote:
It wouldn't be a problem than. Or do we assume they can't disengage mid flight.
We assume that they don't know where they are once they disengage. At which point they simply use some star-charting software & get back on course.
Quote:
The Zerg can arrive inside a planet's atmosphere with FTL, the Terrans' don't attempt to get that close.
That's talking about the protoss not the zerg bro. :P
Quote:
Because they have developed better FTL than what the Terrans in the Korpulu sector has access to.
They're...at different points in their evolutionary development. The terrans were just dumped off and forced to start from almost nothing. All this proves is that terrans had to work up to get to modest warp speeds just like zerg. It is in fact the koprulu terrans that have made faster progress than the zerg have.
Quote:
And? They had to have used it because they had the chance to. Otherwise, we assume that Dugalle's an idiot. Occam's Razor suggests he did use it, but it simply couldn't get him far enough away.
Drives can be used in seconds according to Starcraft 2 and uprising, so the fact that his superior FTL couldn't get him far enough away from the Zerg suggests that they have FTL to match.
More assumptions.
1) How do you know they weren't out of fuel?
2) How do you know Dugalle didn't lag behind to protect his fleet? We already know he was suicidal and that some of his ships are slower because they are stolen k-sector technology.
Quote:
Well, most of those were either smaller ships or before the UED made an appearances. I don't see the problem there.
So you figure the UED comes in and now everybody can travel across the galaxy at their whim, no longer restricted by the koprulu sector?
Quote:
The Zerg arrive almost instantly going from Tarsonis to Char and from Char to Auir, depending upon how you take "teleport," and generally how that word is used in the fiction, it means instantaneous transport. The Terrans took weeks, the Zerg didn't therefore Zerg > Terran FTL.
No. This is just more assumptions. We saw the zerg cinematic as they left for Aiur, and they didn't "teleport instantaneously", they use the wormholes they always did.
But hey, since I'm expected to prove everything beyond a shadow of a doubt, there's no reason you should be allowed to throw around flippant assumptions. SC lore has just received a slew of new plotholes with all this "traveling at a bajillion times the speed of light" nonsense. The protoss must really love Raynor is not an excuse.
Re: Heart of the Swarm Sept 2012 beta unit details - leaked video
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
33 million c is just nuts. Dude. Raynor could cross the entire galaxy in one day.
Of course its crazy. Nonetheless, that's what happened. Even if you assumed it was only ten percent that number, its still millions of C.
Quote:
You are right though that this is speculation: what kind of time dilation does the BC undergo?
I'm fine with that explanation. It just doesn't exist in the lore.
Quote:
We assume that they don't know where they are once they disengage. At which point they simply use some star-charting software & get back on course.
IIRC, they have detected objects in Warp Space while not being in it themselves. Wouldn't that show that they can detect where they "pop out?"
Quote:
That's talking about the protoss not the zerg bro. :P
I'm talking about the Zerg in Speed of Darkness that managed to FTL into the atmosphere, not the Protoss int hat example.
Quote:
They're...at different points in their evolutionary development. The terrans were just dumped off and forced to start from almost nothing. All this proves is that terrans had to work up to get to modest warp speeds just like zerg. It is in fact the koprulu terrans that have made faster progress than the zerg have.
What? The Zerg went from 60 year FTL to faster than Terrans in under a hundred years. The Terrans started with the FTL tech in the first place when they crashed and reverse engineered from that. The Zerg developed on their own, while the Terrans had an example to go off of and the Zerg still developed faster.
Quote:
More assumptions.
1) How do you know they weren't out of fuel?
Seeing as we have no idea if they even use a special type of fuel to propagate FTL rather than just their fusion reactors, that question can't be looked at because there's no idea about what fuel they use and have and such. If a past drive can function for years without refueling, than I don't see why they would have ran out of fuel.
Quote:
2) How do you know Dugalle didn't lag behind to protect his fleet? We already know he was suicidal and that some of his ships are slower because they are stolen k-sector technology.
That would assume that each ship was set out to die. We know that none made it back. If even a few could do so, and the rest couldn't, than when they were overtaken, some of the ships could have very well taken their losses and left.
There's not enough info on the matter though due to the unknown nature of the battle, of how they died. All we know that UED FTL has a set speed and we have a Terran set speed from the past. No one inside the Sector remarks on it as special. While common sense would propose that the Terrans have inferior FTL tech, they may very well have close enough parity that such large distinctions aren't visible.
All I'm saying is that the Zerg have the FTL to reach Zerus in a reasonable time frame, which is fine to me but a problem to other people.
Quote:
So you figure the UED comes in and now everybody can travel across the galaxy at their whim, no longer restricted by the koprulu sector?
Seeing as we don't even know how big the Korpulu sector is in relation to the galaxy, if they show us that it encompasses half the galaxy, I'm fine with that. Of course, I think the Protoss have been doing this far longer than the Terrans have and thus have superior FTL than the UED due to their mechanisms, but that's just me speculating.
Quote:
No. This is just more assumptions. We saw the zerg cinematic as they left for Aiur, and they didn't "teleport instantaneously", they use the wormholes they always did.
Wormholes are instant. You go in one side and pop out the other like a door way. I'm not saying instant FTL like nBSG or Dune.
Quote:
But hey, since I'm expected to prove everything beyond a shadow of a doubt,
Shifting the goal posts.
I'm not expecting you to prove "everything" beyond a shadow of doubt. I'm expecting you to prove time dilation, which isn't supported by canon. I actually like the idea, I just don't see anything that hints at it.
Quote:
there's no reason you should be allowed to throw around flippant assumptions.
Flippant assumptions? I going off of how they say teleport and how that word is delivered in other sources, where it is instantaneous. This isn't flippant since I'm using other canon sources to show.
Quote:
SC lore has just received a slew of new plotholes with all this "traveling at a bajillion times the speed of light" nonsense.
Not really a plot hole as its a lack of scale as technology/biology develops. This is certainly not as bad as Trek's FTL inconsistency and its not even a problem in of itself. .
Quote:
The protoss must really love Raynor is not an excuse.
That was suppose to be a joke.
The thing is that the Terrans must have either developed better FTL in that time or have some UED drives being studied and as such is a reason for their FTL.
The point is, that sure, there could be an explanation of why long term travel is slower than short term. But its not a problem because we don't know the actual boundaries of the Sector and where everything is related to each other.
We don't where Zerus is except near the core. We don't know where the Korpulu sector is except 60,000 light years away from Earth and near the galaxy's boundary. That gives them a lot of way room to make sense of it.
The problem here is the Zerg's inability to travel to Zerus in a short time, which in of itself is no longer a problem considering the advances they have made. There's enough ambiguity in the events to have no contradictions in this matter.
Re: Heart of the Swarm Sept 2012 beta unit details - leaked video
Quote:
Wormholes are instant. You go in one side and pop out the other like a door way.
So it begs the question of how the zerg can improve on it in the first place. You still cannot show me what changed from when they entered the k sector and when they left. Kerrigan has demonstrated before that she is not as knowledgeable as the Overmind. Also, we don't know if zerg wormholes are exactly like Einstein-Rosen bridges. The SC wiki just calls them "gateways".
Quote:
I'm expecting you to prove time dilation, which isn't supported by canon.
Like I said a long time ago, I can only do that if we buy into the premise that Starcraft is an intelligent & realistic sci-fi, which we both already established that we don't, since whimsically traveling at a bajillion times the speed of light is apparently no-problemo.
Going to places such as Earth & Zerus should be beyond our reach. SC is about lone survivors battling it out on the galactic rim. Dugalle said "be reminded that if we fail in our mission here, not one of us will be going home". Clearly the process they used to get here in the first place was complicated and intensive, which is what I tried to show in the first place, but you're inclined to dismiss it since Blizzard now decided that everyone and their dog can travel at whatever speed they want! :-D
Here's a recap:
- Zerg go from modest warp speeds of 60+ years to get to Zerus to weeks/months for no apparent reason.
- To make sense of this you calculate from a cinematic that the hyperion can travel at the ludicrous speeds of 33 million times the speed of light, able to cross the galaxy in a day.
- Everyone in the k-sector greatly improves their travel times after getting access to UED tech. Took 2 weeks to get to Char? Hell, now they have no reason to even be in the K-sector, just go back to earth. SC lore is a mess.
Quote:
The problem here is the Zerg's inability to travel to Zerus in a short time, which in of itself is no longer a problem considering the advances they have made. There's enough ambiguity in the events to have no contradictions in this matter.
In other words, we're expected to make the concession that the zerg miraculously increased their knowledge of warp space (despite having a less knowledgeable controller than before), for no better reason than the writers suddenly want to go to Zerus. Your "proof using canon sources" for this is that we can't prove it's not true. There's also your especially convincing argument that we can't prove the UED didn't run out of fuel. Sweet. I think we're crystal. :cool:
Re: Heart of the Swarm Sept 2012 beta unit details - leaked video
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
So it begs the question of how the zerg can improve on it in the first place. You still cannot show me what changed from when they entered the k sector and when they left. Kerrigan has demonstrated before that she is not as knowledgeable as the Overmind.
The other explanation is that the 60 years was intentional. As in, he was building up his strength before his attack. Of course that is really a far off interpretation.
It could be a psionic enhancement from dealing with Terrans and Protoss. Queens being made from Kerrigan into psionic substitutes for Cerebrates implies some psionic dealings.
Quote:
Also, we don't know if zerg wormholes are exactly like Einstein-Rosen bridges. The SC wiki just calls them "gateways".
We see them go in, and in the next very scene there at Auir. There's not a lot of leeway there.
Quote:
Like I said a long time ago, I can only do that if we buy into the premise that Starcraft is an intelligent & realistic sci-fi, which we both already established that we don't, since whimsically traveling at a bajillion times the speed of light is apparently no-problemo.
Starcraft makes as much sense as Star Wars, Star Trek, and Stargate.
Quote:
Going to places such as Earth & Zerus should be beyond our reach. SC is about lone survivors battling it out on the galactic rim.
Starcraft is a military sci-fi about the three races battling it out in the Korpulu sector. Its regards to the galactic rim are an unknown and its focus on such a small scale has been dealt with. We're now dealing with Hybrids intent on destroying everything, including the UED terrans. The scale has evolved.
Quote:
Dugalle said "be reminded that if we fail in our mission here, not one of us will be going home". Clearly the process they used to get here in the first place was complicated and intensive
That isn't clear cut. It could very well be that the UED intended to execute them for failure, thus they couldn't return home.
Quote:
which is what I tried to show in the first place, but you're inclined to dismiss it since Blizzard now decided that everyone and their dog can travel at whatever speed they want! :-D
Again, they care not for technical specifics. That's not my fault, its Blizzard, but since its canon, it is law no mater how stupid it is.
Quote:
Here's a recap:
- Zerg go from modest warp speeds of 60+ years to get to Zerus to weeks/months for no apparent reason.
- Exponential evolution or simply the rise of the need for better FTL. If Zerg can potentially be perpetual motion machines (a much bigger offense in my mind) than highly differing FTL speeds in a short time is rather something not beyond them.
Quote:
- To make sense of this you calculate from a cinematic that the hyperion can travel at the ludicrous speeds of 33 million times the speed of light, able to cross the galaxy in a day.
And?
Quote:
- Everyone in the k-sector greatly improves their travel times after getting access to UED tech. Took 2 weeks to get to Char? Hell, now they have no reason to even be in the K-sector, just go back to earth. SC lore is a mess.
Even if FTL tech is that advance, there is a reason for them to not travel. Just because you can go that fast, doesn't mean you can propagate your power that well. Today, we have aircraft that can go around the world in hours, yet we still don't have nations that span continents. A similar aspect can be applied here.
Quote:
In other words, we're expected to make the concession that the zerg miraculously increased their knowledge of warp space (despite having a less knowledgeable controller than before), for no better reason than the writers suddenly want to go to Zerus.
Or that the Zerg developed it by Psionic pursuits in humanity or that their FTL was always this fast to begin with and the 60 year trip was intentional. I agree the situation is sad in this affair, but its not a contradiction anymore than the Dominion holding off the Zerg where the Confederacy failed.
Quote:
Your "proof using canon sources" for this is that we can't prove it's not true.
Uh, your ignoring what I pointed out earlier.
Quote:
There's also your especially convincing argument that we can't prove the UED didn't run out of fuel.
Well, there's nothing that suggests they have a "special" fuel for warp drives. If a ship can sustain Warp Travel for over 28 years, I'm inclined to believe that they have the necessary technology to initiate warp travel just by going off of Fusion reactors, therefore needing fuel for FTL would be like needing fuel for your entire ship.
Quote:
Sweet. I think we're crystal. :cool:
I don't think so.
Re: Heart of the Swarm Sept 2012 beta unit details - leaked video
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shadow Archon
We see them go in, and in the next very scene there at Auir. There's not a lot of leeway there.
No, we don't: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp-W6icpCbs
Quote:
Again, they care not for technical specifics. That's not my fault, its Blizzard, but since its canon, it is law no mater how stupid it is.
Your 33 million c figure is most certainly not, as there are stars far closer together than 4 light years. Proxima & alpha centauri AB for example are .2 light years apart. Or you could have a binary system even closer together. How is 33 million times the speed of light an acceptable margin of error? You didn't have to come up with such an off-the-wall ridiculous number to make blizzard's idea seem less ridiculous by comparison.
Quote:
Exponential evolution or simply the rise of the need for better FTL. If Zerg can potentially be perpetual motion machines (a much bigger offense in my mind) than highly differing FTL speeds in a short time is rather something not beyond them.
Problems such as zerg units being perpetual motion machines are more easily dismissed because they are part of what require units to function in their core setting. Not that I know any examples of zerg being perpetual motion machines in lore, but still. Highly differing FTL speeds on the other hand break the suspension of disbelief in that they break the setting and allow people to go wherever the hell they want. Case in point:
DUKE
Earth Directorate? You mean to tell me you've come all the way out here from Earth?
Zeratul
United Earth Directorate? Raynor spoke of the distant Terran homeworld called Earth. These humans have come a long way to make war on us.
Yeah, not so distant anymore. Suspension of disbelief and realism just went down the shithole, but that's not a problem because Blizzard now caters to 12 year-olds.
Quote:
Starcraft makes as much sense as Star Wars, Star Trek, and Stargate.
I actually watched stargate a few months ago, and no, you can't compare wings of liberty's jolly cowboy time to stargate. Stargate's worst offense is that everyone on other planets speaks english, but the writers themselves said they made it that way because it would be pointless for the cast to spend episodes learning how to translate alien.
Quote:
Well, there's nothing that suggests they have a "special" fuel for warp drives. If a ship can sustain Warp Travel for over 28 years, I'm inclined to believe that they have the necessary technology to initiate warp travel just by going off of Fusion reactors, therefore needing fuel for FTL would be like needing fuel for your entire ship.
Not. The. Point. How do you know his FTL capabilities do not require some external structure which Kerrigan had already destroyed, which would explain why she let him leave in the first place? How do you know Dugalle even started up his FTL engines? Of course it would be stupid of him not to, so why isn't he in hyperspace? If all you need is fusion reactors what the hell is he doing in the middle of nowhere? Seriously, all we're given is a cinematic of him getting chased down in real-space. It takes nothing less than wanton speculation to go from here to the idea that "the swarm has faster FTL than the UED."
We have a direct example of the journey to Zerus in lore. It's 60+ years. We have no examples of zerg getting access to different FTL technology. HoTS implies that they can now do it in weeks/months. It's a retcon, period, unless you start desperately grasping for straws.
You can't argue against someone who's only tactics are to make wild concessions and whose only stance is "you can't prove that it's not true". This is just like the Overmind retcon. Nobody could prove that he wasn't secretly being a slave mind-controlled by an external evil power but that he was secretly a good guy all along. It breaks continuity, realism, and therefore suspension of disbelief. You need realism and suspension of disbelief to offset the fantastical sci-fi setting and increase immersion.
I can't prove that Zeratul isn't Chuck Testa. I can't prove that the Xel'Naga don't look like teletubbies. Tell me ShadowArchon, why do you promote the molestation of starcraft lore? Why do you endorse god-awful storytelling? I'm not talking about just the technical aspect of warp drive speeds here, but the breaking of continuity & realism.
Re: Heart of the Swarm Sept 2012 beta unit details - leaked video
Seriously? The worst offense of Stargate is the universal English thing? I'm not saying Stargate is a bad series (bar Infinity...oh, God...) but...ugh.
And no, I'm not going to weigh into this discussion. It lost any semblence of normality when you played the "everyone who likes this is stupid" card.
Re: Heart of the Swarm Sept 2012 beta unit details - leaked video
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
Yes we do. :rolleyes:
This is the image that follows that video:
http://www.wallforever.info/thumbs/z...of_aiur-t2.jpg
Quote:
Your 33 million c figure is most certainly not, as there are stars far closer together than 4 light years. Proxima & alpha centauri AB for example are .2 light years apart.
Alright, .2 light years apart in four seconds. That's twenty seconds per light year. A minute for three light years. An hour for one-hundred and eighty. A day for 4,320. A year for 1,576,800 light years. That's 1,576,800 C there, still in the whole "ridiculous" territory you painted earlier.
Quote:
Or you could have a binary system even closer together.
Of course you have proof that it is a binary system right?
Quote:
How is 33 million times the speed of light an acceptable margin of error?
Because its the closest number to Earth for a comparison. Seeing as there is no stated number, it was simply an assumption to get one. Even if you assume .2 light years, its still a million c.
Quote:
You didn't have to come up with such an off-the-wall ridiculous number to make blizzard's idea seem less ridiculous by comparison.
Wow, you really don't know any of the other numbers from other events of Starcraft tech do you?
You think this one is bad? Bah, you don't even talk about the ludicrousness that is Mar Sara or Korhal. There's off the wall numbers everywhere in Starcraft, and all of them in some ways "break" the story. If you want "perfection," go somewhere else. The story is still good.
Quote:
Problems such as zerg units being perpetual motion machines are more easily dismissed because they are part of what require units to function in their core setting. Not that I know any examples of zerg being perpetual motion machines in lore, but still.
Oh, so only when science doesn't work in certain ways you don't like is something that upsets you?
Quote:
Highly differing FTL speeds on the other hand break the suspension of disbelief in that they break the setting and allow people to go wherever the hell they want.
And? FTL has always been speed of plot or random numbers thrown out. It has never been a crucial element of Starcraft, not in the long shot.
Quote:
Case in point:
DUKE
Earth Directorate? You mean to tell me you've come all the way out here from Earth?
Zeratul
United Earth Directorate? Raynor spoke of the distant Terran homeworld called Earth. These humans have come a long way to make war on us.
In terms of power projection over a wide amount of territory, it is a long way. Not necessarily alone in travel time, but how they project their territory. Still fits there.
Quote:
Yeah, not so distant anymore. Suspension of disbelief and realism just went down the shithole.
Bullcrap. Realism went out in Starcraft 1. Suspension of disbelief has nothing to do with FTL in a sci-fi setting, well, at least to me.
Quote:
but that's not a problem because Blizzard now caters to 12 year-olds.
Oh, insulting those that like something you hate? In my mind, that sounds quite like Poisoning the Well to me. If you don't like it, leave it at that. Insulting people who like it is quite silly and immature.
Quote:
I actually watched stargate a few months ago, and no, you can't compare wings of liberty's jolly cowboy time to stargate. Stargate's worst offense is that everyone on other planets speaks english, but the writers themselves said they made it that way because it would be pointless for the cast to spend episodes learning how to translate alien.
Oh, bullcrap.
Let me point out to you the 200 megaton Hatak blasts and the dynamite Hatak blasts from time to time. Or the Zat's disintegration factor. Or the fact that an alien race was defeated by modern day America through deus ex machinas here and there later in the series. Or the blatant disregard for canon in the end of Atlantis. Or the marty stu doctor Mckay/Carter doing bogus science.
Really, Wings of Liberty is better by far than Stargate SG-1 at its worse and IMHO better just a bit at its best.
Quote:
Not. The. Point. How do you know his FTL capabilities do not require some external structure which Kerrigan had already destroyed, which would explain why she let him leave in the first place? How do you know Dugalle even started up his FTL engines? Of course it would be stupid of him not to, so why isn't he in hyperspace? If all you need is fusion reactors what the hell is he doing in the middle of nowhere? Seriously, all we're given is a cinematic of him getting chased down in real-space. It takes nothing less than wanton speculation to go from here to the idea that "the swarm has faster FTL than the UED."
Wow, so your response to my speculation going by what we know which helps reconcile the Zerus trip that hasn't happened yet is more baseless speculation just to prove there's a contradiction just to prove how "bad" Blizzard is at story writing?
I think you missed the point. The point is to reconcile the two incidents with canon, not realism or "what I say could have happened is more important than what you say could have happened."
Quote:
We have a direct example of the journey to Zerus in lore. It's 60+ years. We have no examples of zerg getting access to different FTL technology. HoTS implies that they can now do it in weeks/months. It's a retcon, period, unless you start desperately grasping for straws.
Bull crap. Its not a retcon seeing as it can be resolved with natural tech/biology progression. If it was a Voyager example, I would agree, but it isn't. Your the one grasping for straws to say it is, assuming that the Zerg haven't progressed at all even though there whole motto is to become better. I mean, these are the bugs that become completely immune to Absolute Zero by eating space yetis. Do you really think they couldn't overcome this obstacle?
Quote:
You can't argue against someone who's only tactics are to make wild concessions and whose only stance is "you can't prove that it's not true". This is just like the Overmind retcon. Nobody could prove that he wasn't secretly being a slave mind-controlled by an external evil power but that he was secretly a good guy all along. It breaks continuity, realism, and therefore suspension of disbelief. You need realism and suspension of disbelief to offset the fantastical sci-fi setting and increase immersion.
Of course, one, I take the Overmind event different than you do so to not ruin the character due to my interpretation, and second, am providing events where the Zerg have the FTL to do the required trip, and have better FTL than the Terrans who could also make the trip.
To me, the continuity, realism, and suspension of disbelief is just fine.
Quote:
I can't prove that Zeratul isn't Chuck Testa. I can't prove that the Xel'Naga don't look like teletubbies.
And? Your changing the argument. Your stating that I'm committing a Proving a negative fallacy, when I'm not.
I'm going by canon instances of tech/bio progression that simply explain the Zerus trip perfectly to me. If you don't like that answer, make another review that I disagree with. You have that right.
Quote:
Tell me ShadowArchon, why do you promote the molestation of starcraft lore? Why do you endorse god-awful storytelling? I'm not talking about just the technical aspect of warp drive speeds here, but the breaking of continuity & realism.
I don't. Apparently, its your opinion of the story. My opinion is that it is a good story that isn't any more awful than a Doctor Who arc. Strict Realism is out the door when its sci-fi for me, and I let myself be immersed in it.
Re: Heart of the Swarm Sept 2012 beta unit details - leaked video
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hawki
And no, I'm not going to weigh into this discussion. It lost any semblence of normality when you played the "everyone who likes this is stupid" card.
I've noticed that conversations with WoL story defenders are similar to conversations with creationists in that I'm criticizing something sacred and that their last defense ends up being:
1) You can't prove that I'm wrong.
2) You're being offensive.
This is exactly why I stopped coming here. *facepalm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hawki
Seriously? The worst offense of Stargate is the universal English thing? I'm not saying Stargate is a bad series (bar Infinity...oh, God...) but...ugh.
Are you implying that Stargate Infinity fans are somehow...stupid? How dare you? :0
See, I can do it. Shit's annoying & needs to stop. Thanks. But seriously, you seem like a reasonable guy so you should know what a heated debate looks like (hint: this isn't even remotely it). Don't like it, oh well, I'm getting extremely tired of accommodating you people. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shadow Archon
http://i43.tinypic.com/iclchu.jpg
I'll let you tell me why showing a picture after a video does not prove that zero time has passed between that point.
Quote:
Wow, you really don't know any of the other numbers from other events of Starcraft tech do you?
You think this one is bad? Bah, you don't even talk about the ludicrousness that is Mar Sara or Korhal. There's off the wall numbers everywhere in Starcraft, and all of them in some ways "break" the story. If you want "perfection," go somewhere else. The story is still good.
Details that few people will ever see like population & protoss purification numbers is one thing. "What the hell are we doing here on Zerus in the second expo of SC2?" is another. If you can't understand the difference between the two then I don't know what to say.
Quote:
Oh, so only when science doesn't work in certain ways you don't like is something that upsets you?
And? FTL has always been speed of plot or random numbers thrown out. It has never been a crucial element of Starcraft, not in the long shot.
Obviously everything I said just went over your head. Again, what separates sci-fi from fantasy is the idea that it's based on science and therefore it could be real. Unlike fantasy, sci-fi has less willing suspension of disbelief. Its viewers expect slightly more immersion and therefore more attention to realism. It's not just FTL itself that is important to the maintenance of realism & suspension of disbelief, but the maintenance of the setting.
In SC, Zerus was clearly established as ancient history, and, being in the fiery galactic core, probably unreachable now after all these ages. The same way that we have no business going back to earth, we have no business going back to zerus. That the conflict has broadened because of the hybrids is not an excuse to go back to Zerus, it's just an excuse to win the conflict in SC2.
Quote:
Bullcrap. Realism went out in Starcraft 1.
So what? Seriously, so what? Everyone keeps repeating this inane adage as if it's supposed to be an excuse for WoL's shortcomings.
Quote:
Oh, bullcrap.
Let me point out to you the 200 megaton Hatak blasts and the dynamite Hatak blasts from time to time. Or the Zat's disintegration factor. Or the fact that an alien race was defeated by modern day America through deus ex machinas here and there later in the series. Or the blatant disregard for canon in the end of Atlantis. Or the marty stu doctor Mckay/Carter doing bogus science.
Really, Wings of Liberty is better by far than Stargate SG-1 at its worse and IMHO better just a bit at its best.
Is that it?
1) Hatak blasts & Zats. Same reason I don't complain about the impossibility of the zerg race. It's consistent, so who cares?
2) DEMs - agreed.
3) Dr. Carter. Beats the hell out of Stetman's bogus science. "Survival of the fittest on the cellular level" gave me a good lol.
4) I'm like 80% through SG1, so no clue about Atlantis.
I still think SG1 is superior in that at the very least it knows how to do war humor without making a total joke of itself.
Quote:
Bull crap. Its not a retcon seeing as it can be resolved with natural tech/biology progression. If it was a Voyager example, I would agree, but it isn't. Your the one grasping for straws to say it is, assuming that the Zerg haven't progressed at all even though there whole motto is to become better. I mean, these are the bugs that become completely immune to Absolute Zero by eating space yetis. Do you really think they couldn't overcome this obstacle?
I understand your position perfectly. You want to reconcile plot holes. At the very least I would appreciate it if you'd demonstrate some acknowledgement/understanding of my argument. That being: I want to highlight the fact that Blizzard doesn't give a damn and likely never thought any of this through in the first place. This is not the way natural story progression works, but I already made that clear. There are multiple writers at Blizzard that get paid to think about the story for months, and yet retcons still keep coming out.
Quote:
Of course, one, I take the Overmind event different than you do so to not ruin the character due to my interpretation, and second, am providing events where the Zerg have the FTL to do the required trip, and have better FTL than the Terrans who could also make the trip.
To me, the continuity, realism, and suspension of disbelief is just fine.
That's because you willfully ignore evidence to the contrary, like a direct quote of the length of the trip to Zerus, or the fact that the UED fleet is chased down in real space and likely never got the opportunity to get into hyperspace in the first place. Which is fine, it helps you enjoy the story better, but I hope you understand why some people would get annoyed at the totally unnatural story progression.
There is no need to argue over this when it's obvious that the people working on SC2 are taking it in a totally different direction and really could care less about making a true successor to the BW story. This fact comes through in dubious retcons, unnatural story progression and bad science. But like I said before, if the intent is to create a new story, why not start a new franchise? Again I ask, what is the point in molesting the SC lore? o.O
Re: Heart of the Swarm Sept 2012 beta unit details - leaked video
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gradius
I'll let you tell me why showing a picture after a video does not prove that zero time has passed between that point.
It doesn't prove that days or weeks have either. The point is, there's leeway for Zerus travel time to be perfectly reasonable.
Quote:
Details that few people will ever see like population & protoss purification numbers is one thing. "What the hell are we doing here on Zerus in the second expo of SC2?" is another. If you can't understand the difference between the two then I don't know what to say.
I don't see any difference between the two seeing as how intimate I get with the numbers.
Quote:
Obviously everything I said just went over your head. Again, what separates sci-fi from fantasy is the idea that it's based on science and therefore it could be real. Unlike fantasy, sci-fi has less willing suspension of disbelief. Its viewers expect slightly more immersion and therefore more attention to realism. It's not just FTL itself that is important to the maintenance of realism & suspension of disbelief, but the maintenance of the setting.
Well, this is where we disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarke's third law
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Throw in space biology and we have salsa.
To me, I don't care about such strict realism if there's a crazy tech progression to explain it. This seems to be leaning more into opinions than canon though, so I'm not going to argue it.
Quote:
In SC, Zerus was clearly established as ancient history, and, being in the fiery galactic core, probably unreachable now after all these ages. The same way that we have no business going back to earth, we have no business going back to zerus. That the conflict has broadened because of the hybrids is not an excuse to go back to Zerus, it's just an excuse to win the conflict in SC2.
Really? I thought Zerus was always a possibility to come back in the story. Again, opinions here. Where does " we don't have the business to go back to Zerus" come from? Metzen made it, he can do whatever he pleases with it.
Quote:
So what? Seriously, so what? Everyone keeps repeating this inane adage as if it's supposed to be an excuse for WoL's shortcomings.
I don't see the shortcomings. You seem to want realism and world building, but as far as I'm concerned realism wasn't there to begin with. You make it sound like WoL broke the suspension. To me, believing it in the first place in Starcraft made my suspension fine for WoL.
The only thing I hated in it was the canon choice for Haven due to its stupidity and the VA change for Tassadar. I can personally interpret everything else to fit my Starcraft image just fine.
Quote:
Is that it?
1) Hatak blasts & Zats. Same reason I don't complain about the impossibility of the zerg race. It's consistent, so who cares?
http://i.qkme.me/35hq1d.jpg
A stick of dynamite and a 200 megaton blast are never equal. The inconsistency is mind boggling there my pal. Not meaning to poke fun, but jeez does plot save SG-1 all the freakin' time.
Okay.
Quote:
3) Dr. Carter. Beats the hell out of Stetman's bogus science. "Survival of the fittest on the cellular level" gave me a good lol.
Sure, in biology. Wait until later, with McKay blowing up a solar system, or his DEMs in Atlantis, or how Carter manages to save the day here and there later on.
Quote:
4) I'm like 80% through SG1, so no clue about Atlantis.
That explains it.
Quote:
I still think SG1 is superior in that at the very least it knows how to do war humor without making a total joke of itself.
Opinions. I think Starcraft is more serious than Stargate IMHO.
Quote:
I understand your position perfectly. You want to reconcile plot holes. At the very least I would appreciate it if you'd demonstrate some acknowledgement/understanding of my argument.
Okay. I understand your opinion on Starcraft. You have a deep care for verisimilitude and certain constant elements. You have that right. I, due to my background, do not think the same way towards fiction.
Your also right about Blizzard. They don't care about the technical specifics in sci-fi and just label out a number here and there. They only care about the core of their story to a point, and even than there's problems. Tech works via plot, which is why Starcraft is a sponge soft science fiction.
I don't care about any of this though. I love it anyways, just like Doctor Who and animes. I reconcile what I can, generally the easy main points, and laugh at the side ones. (Restoring Mar Sara? In a year? When it was blasted down to the core? What a great laugh!)
We just have differing opinions and attitudes toward it. I like WoL, you don't. That's all she wrote.
Quote:
That being: I want to highlight the fact that Blizzard doesn't give a damn and likely never thought any of this through in the first place.
Let me point you Here.
Quote:
This is not the way natural story progression works, but I already made that clear. There are multiple writers at Blizzard that get paid to think about the story for months, and yet retcons still keep coming out.
At least the retcons are semi-debatable. I can get away with explanations that leave no retcons for my personal fanon, and I will argue it with those that think they are simply retcons. :cool:
Quote:
That's because you willfully ignore evidence to the contrary, like a direct quote of the length of the trip to Zerus,
Which was a past version of the Zerg and no longer relevant to the Current Zerg.
Quote:
or the fact that the UED fleet is chased down in real space and likely never got the opportunity to get into hyperspace in the first place.
Likely is not definite. They could have, they couldn't have. If they did, it explains Zerus easily. Why bother with a contradiction when ambiguity can fix it. ;)
Quote:
Which is fine, it helps you enjoy the story better, but I hope you understand why some people would get annoyed at the totally unnatural story progression.
I understand that.
Quote:
There is no need to argue over this when it's obvious that the people working on SC2 are taking it in a totally different direction and really could care less about making a true successor to the BW story. This fact comes through in dubious retcons, unnatural story progression and bad science. But like I said before, if the intent is to create a new story, why not start a new franchise? Again I ask, what is the point in molesting the SC lore? o.O
Simple. Disregard current canon if you don't like it. Make up your own fanon and believe it.
I have differing opinions, so do you. Do what makes you happy with the story regardless of the writers.
